|
On May 12 2013 19:48 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2013 17:46 scypio wrote:On May 12 2013 17:28 ETisME wrote:On May 12 2013 17:21 scypio wrote:On May 12 2013 17:03 Decendos wrote:On May 12 2013 16:51 scypio wrote:
I think there are some things getting mixed up in this thread. We can see some true balance complaints like:
"ZvT is almost unwinnable and all the Zergs will disappear from the tourneys, ladder etc". Tournament results and the long list of the zerg players that seem to be doing fine within the current metagame say otherwise.
And than there is another set of complaints that can be summed up with a statement: "I don't like the current meta/gameplay". This is understandable - for example a coinflip is pretty balanced, but it is not a lot of fun to watch (unless it's at Dreamhack).
Let's say little Johnny doesn't like MMM-based TvP and thinks that the right way to play versus Protoss is a 4-port banshee. Pretty soon you would see Johnny posting on TL with the idea of increasing the range, damage and hp on the banshee by 50% to make his goto strategy viable.
This is exactly what the zergies do: my (WoL) strat is not working, other strats(bust) are stupid: blizzard go nerf hellbat, speedvacs and widow mines!
For me saying things like "well, the game has been out for two months, I've played 100 games on the ladder and nothing's gonna change, blizzard fix this!" seems a bit hasty. And the idea of sacrificing balance in favor of a better gameplay is flawed. except its the other way around. the old WoL style roach or roach bane all ins or roach nydus allins (which symbol already did in WoL and havent changed one bit) are working if T is bad/doesnt scout/plays insanely greedy. the new stuff in midgame doesnt work: swarmhosts, faster hydras dont work AT ALL, regenerating mutas work if you outplay opponent. the guy mentioning all the macro zergs are out while all the "all in/cheesy zerg" got in ro8 is true to the most part (obv not all macro zergs game are macro and the other way around). thats what all zerg players say is stupid: if you are on equal skill AND want to play a standard macro game TvZ is imbalanced. what makes it a bit more balanced are all the all ins Z does. once T figures them out (roach nydus all in etc. is easy scoutable, so is every roach warren with 2 reaper opening), TvZ will get a lot worse. lets see how it gets fixed. its just NO FUN at all to all in every TvZ right now because you will lose most macro games. But why would you think that two months is enough to say that the new toys that zergs got do not work? Early all-ins for the zerg work great because they haven't changed for the last two years. Every skilled zerg knows the timings to the last second, knows how to deal a final blow if the first wave does not cut it and can play these games out without thinking, The same goes for every single unit that terran has received in hots. Mines are new, but leapfrogging them forward is exactly the same (in terms of mechanics) like leapfrogging the tanks. And that's about it, terrans can bank on their WoL MMM(+T) control skills in every 4M game vs the zerg. On the other hand vipers and swarm hosts did not have any counterparts in WoL, therefore the skill to control them needs to be built from the ground up. Once again: if it took that long for the zergs to figure out how to use the WoL ling/infestor/broodlord composition to the max - how come 2 months is enough to say "this stuff is worthless"? ling infestors broodlords were available because of the map change (less rush), infestor change made ling infestor available. infestor broodlord came soon after the infestor got changed marine tank is much harder to execute than bio mine. mine has a lower attack priority and can deal with both air and land. Dodging the question? The transition into HotS is twice as tough for the zerg as it is for the terran: first of all, they need to learn how to deal with new situations (fighting on a minefield). Then they have totally new units they have no idea how to use (viper, swarm host). Still, they are doing pretty good in HotS, even if they depend on WoL compositions in vs T (but with the new ultras it is not the same really...). Do you really think that two months worth of games in such a scenario is enough to warrant a statement: "this stuff is worthless, blizzard step in"? I can also say something like Terran has the new units and they haven't even get close to max-ing their potential, such as targetting with mines. I do think two months is worth stepping in but it's because I feel speedmedivac is a huge problem and causing a stagnate growth in metagame, ZvT is almost completely the same everywhere.
Well luckily even the other zergs don't try to claim Terran is too strong in Code S, and that is also the only place where manually targetting mines might have a role, and even there I strongly doubt it. Well outside the case where you got 2 widow mines as defense against an all-in and a ling poke tries to set them off. But thats not targeting, it is preventing them from firing.
|
On May 12 2013 19:48 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2013 17:46 scypio wrote:On May 12 2013 17:28 ETisME wrote:On May 12 2013 17:21 scypio wrote:On May 12 2013 17:03 Decendos wrote:On May 12 2013 16:51 scypio wrote:
I think there are some things getting mixed up in this thread. We can see some true balance complaints like:
"ZvT is almost unwinnable and all the Zergs will disappear from the tourneys, ladder etc". Tournament results and the long list of the zerg players that seem to be doing fine within the current metagame say otherwise.
And than there is another set of complaints that can be summed up with a statement: "I don't like the current meta/gameplay". This is understandable - for example a coinflip is pretty balanced, but it is not a lot of fun to watch (unless it's at Dreamhack).
Let's say little Johnny doesn't like MMM-based TvP and thinks that the right way to play versus Protoss is a 4-port banshee. Pretty soon you would see Johnny posting on TL with the idea of increasing the range, damage and hp on the banshee by 50% to make his goto strategy viable.
This is exactly what the zergies do: my (WoL) strat is not working, other strats(bust) are stupid: blizzard go nerf hellbat, speedvacs and widow mines!
For me saying things like "well, the game has been out for two months, I've played 100 games on the ladder and nothing's gonna change, blizzard fix this!" seems a bit hasty. And the idea of sacrificing balance in favor of a better gameplay is flawed. except its the other way around. the old WoL style roach or roach bane all ins or roach nydus allins (which symbol already did in WoL and havent changed one bit) are working if T is bad/doesnt scout/plays insanely greedy. the new stuff in midgame doesnt work: swarmhosts, faster hydras dont work AT ALL, regenerating mutas work if you outplay opponent. the guy mentioning all the macro zergs are out while all the "all in/cheesy zerg" got in ro8 is true to the most part (obv not all macro zergs game are macro and the other way around). thats what all zerg players say is stupid: if you are on equal skill AND want to play a standard macro game TvZ is imbalanced. what makes it a bit more balanced are all the all ins Z does. once T figures them out (roach nydus all in etc. is easy scoutable, so is every roach warren with 2 reaper opening), TvZ will get a lot worse. lets see how it gets fixed. its just NO FUN at all to all in every TvZ right now because you will lose most macro games. But why would you think that two months is enough to say that the new toys that zergs got do not work? Early all-ins for the zerg work great because they haven't changed for the last two years. Every skilled zerg knows the timings to the last second, knows how to deal a final blow if the first wave does not cut it and can play these games out without thinking, The same goes for every single unit that terran has received in hots. Mines are new, but leapfrogging them forward is exactly the same (in terms of mechanics) like leapfrogging the tanks. And that's about it, terrans can bank on their WoL MMM(+T) control skills in every 4M game vs the zerg. On the other hand vipers and swarm hosts did not have any counterparts in WoL, therefore the skill to control them needs to be built from the ground up. Once again: if it took that long for the zergs to figure out how to use the WoL ling/infestor/broodlord composition to the max - how come 2 months is enough to say "this stuff is worthless"? ling infestors broodlords were available because of the map change (less rush), infestor change made ling infestor available. infestor broodlord came soon after the infestor got changed marine tank is much harder to execute than bio mine. mine has a lower attack priority and can deal with both air and land. Dodging the question? The transition into HotS is twice as tough for the zerg as it is for the terran: first of all, they need to learn how to deal with new situations (fighting on a minefield). Then they have totally new units they have no idea how to use (viper, swarm host). Still, they are doing pretty good in HotS, even if they depend on WoL compositions in vs T (but with the new ultras it is not the same really...). Do you really think that two months worth of games in such a scenario is enough to warrant a statement: "this stuff is worthless, blizzard step in"? I didn't dodge any question, you seem to think zerg took very long to go into broodlord infestor because one day they all woke up and notice how strong it is and I am merely telling you why that was the case, which was mostly due to blizzard's changes to map and unit. to answer your question: I can also say something like Terran has the new units and they haven't even get close to max-ing their potential, such as targetting with mines. I do think two months is worth stepping in but it's because I feel speedmedivac is a huge problem and causing a stagnate growth in metagame, ZvT is almost completely the same everywhere. There is only one tool to defend against all these speedmedivac, which is muta. We can't even use the new units because how mobile drops are and viper is less efficient than infestors atm
You can say that, but you need to consider that the new units that terran has require the same skillset the old ones needed. Therefore the terrans do have a head start, while the zergs need to catch-up.
It's not that you can't use new units, you just fall back to the things that worked (and work) because you're used to winning. Now is the time to try new compositions, learn how to use them, achieve proficiency with them. This is what Stephano did on numerous occasions in WoL and he seems to be doing it again in HotS.
You say that two months is enough... ok, that's your opinion. I take a look at these four facts:
1. Pro zergs are doing fine in America, Korea and Europe.
2. Two months is not enough time to achieve proficiency with the new units the zergs got.
3. The terrans had a head start in the matchup, as their new units do not require new mechanics or thinking.
4. Pro-level TvZ is spectacular and action-packed.
Therefore I disagree with you. "ZvT is now tough" or "ZvT is in stagnation (after two months...)" does not cut it for me.
|
On May 12 2013 03:21 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2013 03:16 Chocobo wrote:On May 11 2013 19:49 Godwrath wrote:On May 11 2013 18:06 Chocobo wrote:
Yep. Kinda like how mines are cost efficient vs everything zerg has in the first 15-20 minutes of the game. Erhm, no. Other than broodlords, what is cost efficient against mines for zerg? 1. Spore and Spine Crawlers for the early game ... (They are even good against Hellbat drops since neither of these dies easily to the "vs light" damage and the Medivac dies faster ... which prevents its reuse. Spore Crawlers are great against Phoenix and Oracle too ....)
I don't see too many terrans bury their mines inside of spinecrawler range. And if the only time I can take an engagement is when I'm near spinecrawlers... that's kind of a problem.
2. Sending in Overlords to soak up the shots right before your charge ...
This can work if it's just a few units with a couple of mines... in the later game half the ovies will die before setting off mines, and only half the mines will still be active if you charge afterwards.
Just watch a few TvZ games with early harrassment and IMO it is always the "diehard oldschoolers" who try to defend against Hellbat harrassment with Zerglings who are losing the match while the ones who build static defenses seem to be fine. That might be a misperception on my part, but I would suggest you check for yourself.
I go out of my way to do everything possible not to die to bio mine every single game. More static defense, going heavier ling/bane with only a few mutas, going infestor ling bane, trying swarmhosts... believe me, I am not stubbornly trying to play WoL style and crying when I can't make it work. I have literally tried everything I can think of over and over and all of it fails due to being cost inefficient.
The only thing that doesn't get straight up destroyed by mine-focused gameplay is roach hydra... which so far loses every single time to a terran smart enough to say "oh look, roach hydra, I'll stop mines and go heavy bio", and bio tears that army apart. Blinding cloud isn't that good, they can just retreat for a few seconds then come right back. If I could somehow transition into infestor broodlord maybe it could work, but roach hydra is so gas intensive the transition takes forever and doesn't really work.
The whole point of HotS seems to be "more harrassment" ... Hellbat, Oracle, Mutalisk regen, Medivac speed, Widow Mine, ... so preparing for that is a requirement and not optional now IMO (at least until everyone defends against it and there isnt a point to do it anymore ...).
And meanwhile terran doesn't have to deal with any harrassment threats. No reapers jumping in their base before they have any offensive units out, no runbys to worry about.
The game just requires so much more mistake-free play from zerg at this skill level. If terran plays a safe and careful game with biomines, I don't know what you could possibly lose to except for an allin.
|
On May 12 2013 05:13 DemigodcelpH wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2013 02:56 Chocobo wrote:On May 11 2013 19:24 scypio wrote:On May 11 2013 18:41 Chocobo wrote:On May 11 2013 17:32 scypio wrote:
It seems that the "free 3 base + 75 drones" build no longer works in HotS. Oh well... suck it up and L2P, just the way the pro zergs did. "Suck it up and L2P" is just as silly and tiresome as the "everything I lose to is imbalanced" whiners. It adds nothing to the conversation, it makes no claim about balance, it adds nothing to the specific situations being discussed. BTW there are a lot of players who are "learning to play" and trying to improve against these strats every day. The issue is that despite our best efforts, it doesn't lead to anything. This isn't "wahh I lost, make it easier for me". It's "I am practicing for hours and hours and still getting destroyed no matter what I try". You could specifically tell me that you're using the same bio+mine build, with the same strategy and same attack timings, for 20 games in a row and I would still lose over 2/3 of the time (assuming I play for a macro game). Like the final months of WoL where protoss would always choose one allin or another in PvZ because there's so little hope if the game goes longer than 10 minutes... that's what ZvT is like now. OK then, since I play zerg too (33% of the time) I'll give you my insight on the matchup from a (terrible) zerg perspective. First of all, the mindset "I play the macro game" is incorrect. The zerg is a reactionary race and you need to react to what your opponent is doing. I guess if toss would go for a 1-gate 3-nexus you would try to do something about it and kill the expansion. Same goes for terrans who opt for a quick 3rd cc build. You need to scout and punish that, even if that means a lot of commitment (or even all-in). So every game I scout for a factory, and allin if I see one. That's not what I call a macro game. This is not WoL where you could just say "I want to macro and there is nothing you can do about it". That is pretty much the problem. I'm sorry, but at this skill level (where macro/injects/etc are not an issue) a player should have an advantage if he knows 100% what the opponent is doing. When every single game is 1-2 reapers into 10-11 minute bio mine push that doesn't stop for the rest of the entire game, and I lose the overwhelming majority of the time despite knowing exactly what I will face... and all of those losses are due to mines being very cost efficient and too difficult to fight effectively... I'm going to call that a slight problem with the game. I don't know what else to call it. Spoiled by the nightmare that was 2012 Wings of Liberty you're simply not used to playing a balanced game now, because I can assure that every non-Zerg player knew that Zerg was likely going BL/infestor but that didn't stop every Zerg player who could execute it getting high masters
WoL has nothing to do with this, unless your argument is "zerg was OP for a while, and now it's only right that they should be trash for a while" which is a statement I disagree with.
Furthermore knowing what an enemy is doing doesn't exempt you from being outplayed or guarantee you a victory.
It certainly shouldn't guarantee a victory... but if you know exactly what is coming and still can't stop it the majority of the time, I think that makes a statement about the game.
|
On May 12 2013 09:39 AxionSteel wrote:After ages of frustration against zerg in LingsofLiberty, it certainly gives me a warm and fuzzy feeling to see all this QQ in here. Doesn't stop zerg from mopping up the tournaments and doing extremely well in Code S though 
I don't know any zergs who are complaining about balance at the pro level. The problem is that the skill required to play effectively in ZvT is too high for the vast majority of active players. This wouldn't be a problem if it affected both races equally, but it only affects zerg.
It's nothing like other situations where it's like "yes, banelings are strong, you have to split your army up when you see them coming, or you have to protect yourself with tanks". Those are reasonable challenges that most players can learn to pull off. The skill and precision requires to deal with mines effectively is not. It requires so much effort, and is very punishing for any mistakes. Few diamond and masters players have the skill to ever be able to pull it off.
So even though it's completely fair at the pro level, there's a problem for much of the ladder.
|
On May 12 2013 13:28 Nebuchad wrote:
Chocobo I think you're wrong in the argument. I don't think Blizzard should balance-patch according to anything but pro play. If good but not great players have problem with something, well, that's a shame for them, but it's the players who require a patch, not the game. It's already really hard to get something decent when players aren't making too many mistakes...
Balance at the pro level should absolutely be the highest priority. Honestly I can't think of any great solutions that would make mines more counterable in diamond/masters league without making them too counterable by pros.
Maybe have them visible if they're burrowed on creep? Maybe increase the burrow time? After all, there's a reason siege tanks can't instantly enter and exit siege mode.
Really I just think that cloaked reusable mid-range mines are just not a well designed unit for a game like this, where one race is short on units that can attack the mine from outside of the mine's range, -and- also has a clunky detection system.
|
On May 12 2013 20:48 scypio wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2013 19:48 ETisME wrote:On May 12 2013 17:46 scypio:On May 12 2013 17:28 ETisME wrote:On May 12 2013 17:21 scypio wrote:On May 12 2013 17:03 Decendos wrote:On May 12 2013 16:51 scypio wrote:
I think there are some things getting mixed up in this thread. We can see some true balance complaints like:
"ZvT is almost unwinnable and all the Zergs will disappear from the tourneys, ladder etc". Tournament results and the long list of the zerg players that seem to be doing fine within the current metagame say otherwise.
And than there is another set of complaints that can be summed up with a statement: "I don't like the current meta/gameplay". This is understandable - for example a coinflip is pretty balanced, but it is not a lot of fun to watch (unless it's at Dreamhack).
Let's say little Johnny doesn't like MMM-based TvP and thinks that the right way to play versus Protoss is a 4-port banshee. Pretty soon you would see Johnny posting on TL with the idea of increasing the range, damage and hp on the banshee by 50% to make his goto strategy viable.
This is exactly what the zergies do: my (WoL) strat is not working, other strats(bust) are stupid: blizzard go nerf hellbat, speedvacs and widow mines!
For me saying things like "well, the game has been out for two months, I've played 100 games on the ladder and nothing's gonna change, blizzard fix this!" seems a bit hasty. And the idea of sacrificing balance in favor of a better gameplay is flawed. except its the other way around. the old WoL style roach or roach bane all ins or roach nydus allins (which symbol already did in WoL and havent changed one bit) are working if T is bad/doesnt scout/plays insanely greedy. the new stuff in midgame doesnt work: swarmhosts, faster hydras dont work AT ALL, regenerating mutas work if you outplay opponent. the guy mentioning all the macro zergs are out while all the "all in/cheesy zerg" got in ro8 is true to the most part (obv not all macro zergs game are macro and the other way around). thats what all zerg players say is stupid: if you are on equal skill AND want to play a standard macro game TvZ is imbalanced. what makes it a bit more balanced are all the all ins Z does. once T figures them out (roach nydus all in etc. is easy scoutable, so is every roach warren with 2 reaper opening), TvZ will get a lot worse. lets see how it gets fixed. its just NO FUN at all to all in every TvZ right now because you will lose most macro games. But why would you think that two months is enough to say that the new toys that zergs got do not work? Early all-ins for the zerg work great because they haven't changed for the last two years. Every skilled zerg knows the timings to the last second, knows how to deal a final blow if the first wave does not cut it and can play these games out without thinking, The same goes for every single unit that terran has received in hots. Mines are new, but leapfrogging them forward is exactly the same (in terms of mechanics) like leapfrogging the tanks. And that's about it, terrans can bank on their WoL MMM(+T) control skills in every 4M game vs the zerg. On the other hand vipers and swarm hosts did not have any counterparts in WoL, therefore the skill to control them needs to be built from the ground up. Once again: if it took that long for the zergs to figure out how to use the WoL ling/infestor/broodlord composition to the max - how come 2 months is enough to say "this stuff is worthless"? ling infestors broodlords were available because of the map change (less rush), infestor change made ling infestor available. infestor broodlord came soon after the infestor got changed marine tank is much harder to execute than bio mine. mine has a lower attack priority and can deal with both air and land. Dodging the question? The transition into HotS is twice as tough for the zerg as it is for the terran: first of all, they need to learn how to deal with new situations (fighting on a minefield). Then they have totally new units they have no idea how to use (viper, swarm host). Still, they are doing pretty good in HotS, even if they depend on WoL compositions in vs T (but with the new ultras it is not the same really...). Do you really think that two months worth of games in such a scenario is enough to warrant a statement: "this stuff is worthless, blizzard step in"? I didn't dodge any question, you seem to think zerg took very long to go into broodlord infestor because one day they all woke up and notice how strong it is and I am merely telling you why that was the case, which was mostly due to blizzard's changes to map and unit. to answer your question: I can also say something like Terran has the new units and they haven't even get close to max-ing their potential, such as targetting with mines. I do think two months is worth stepping in but it's because I feel speedmedivac is a huge problem and causing a stagnate growth in metagame, ZvT is almost completely the same everywhere. There is only one tool to defend against all these speedmedivac, which is muta. We can't even use the new units because how mobile drops are and viper is less efficient than infestors atm You can say that, but you need to consider that the new units that terran has require the same skillset the old ones needed. Therefore the terrans do have a head start, while the zergs need to catch-up. It's not that you can't use new units, you just fall back to the things that worked (and work) because you're used to winning. Now is the time to try new compositions, learn how to use them, achieve proficiency with them. This is what Stephano did on numerous occasions in WoL and he seems to be doing it again in HotS. You say that two months is enough... ok, that's your opinion. I take a look at these four facts: 1. Pro zergs are doing fine in America, Korea and Europe. 2. Two months is not enough time to achieve proficiency with the new units the zergs got. 3. The terrans had a head start in the matchup, as their new units do not require new mechanics or thinking. 4. Pro-level TvZ is spectacular and action-packed. Therefore I disagree with you. "ZvT is now tough" or "ZvT is in stagnation (after two months...)" does not cut it for me.
Ask yourself how many top top level terran has Stephano successfully beat with roach hydra.
The problem doesn't always mean the solution must come from another unit composition.
The medivac is forcing muta to defend drops, zerg doesn't have a lot of other options to choose from.
You can't micro ling roach swarm host viper to kill drops
Pro Zerg ain't doing all that good in korea considering gstl and how many zerg really qualify into ro8 from that huge zerg list.
Pro level TvZ is purely bio mine and drop defense, 0 diversity. Where's mech and other varieties of Zerg unit composition?
At least in wol we had mech, ling muta, ling infestor, ling infestor ultra into bl, or straight into bl infestor style
What I liked about tvz is how diverse it is. Tank leapfrog, drop to pull zerg army out of position etc
Right now it is almost non stop powerful drops and drops and push with small groups of units. I feel there is just less depth but more mechanics to the game which really puts me off
|
On May 12 2013 22:43 Chocobo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2013 09:39 AxionSteel wrote:After ages of frustration against zerg in LingsofLiberty, it certainly gives me a warm and fuzzy feeling to see all this QQ in here. Doesn't stop zerg from mopping up the tournaments and doing extremely well in Code S though I don't know any zergs who are complaining about balance at the pro level. The problem is that the skill required to play effectively in ZvT is too high for the vast majority of active players. This wouldn't be a problem if it affected both races equally, but it only affects zerg. It's nothing like other situations where it's like "yes, banelings are strong, you have to split your army up when you see them coming, or you have to protect yourself with tanks". Those are reasonable challenges that most players can learn to pull off. The skill and precision requires to deal with mines effectively is not. It requires so much effort, and is very punishing for any mistakes. Few diamond and masters players have the skill to ever be able to pull it off. So even though it's completely fair at the pro level, there's a problem for much of the ladder.
This post highlights a unreasonable fatalistic stance: It is hard. I can't do it right now therefore only a few people can do it and all the others (including me) can't ever learn it.
Zerg bias at its finest.
|
On May 12 2013 22:43 Chocobo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2013 09:39 AxionSteel wrote:After ages of frustration against zerg in LingsofLiberty, it certainly gives me a warm and fuzzy feeling to see all this QQ in here. Doesn't stop zerg from mopping up the tournaments and doing extremely well in Code S though I don't know any zergs who are complaining about balance at the pro level. The problem is that the skill required to play effectively in ZvT is too high for the vast majority of active players. This wouldn't be a problem if it affected both races equally, but it only affects zerg. It's nothing like other situations where it's like "yes, banelings are strong, you have to split your army up when you see them coming, or you have to protect yourself with tanks". Those are reasonable challenges that most players can learn to pull off. The skill and precision requires to deal with mines effectively is not. It requires so much effort, and is very punishing for any mistakes. Few diamond and masters players have the skill to ever be able to pull it off. So even though it's completely fair at the pro level, there's a problem for much of the ladder.
This is totally subjective. My zvt is way way better than my tvz. I feel like I'm playing on a knifes edge in tvz. Additionally, terrans tend to rank lower on the ladder (http://www.sc2ranks.com/stats/league/all/1/all). Terran is over represented in bronze/silver and under represented higher. I would argue this means terran takes more skill to reach a competent level, because at the non pro level they rank significantly lower on ladder on average. Personally I'm very good at injecting so I find zerg macro easier, dealing with mines/drops can be a bitch though.
Different races have different micro requirements, for example lategame tvp is similarly harder to play than pvt in my opinion, like how you feel about zvt.
If you think mines should be changed because they are aggravating to play against, that's a whole different story. I really don't think the skill requirement is as imbalanced as you suggest between zerg and terran.
|
I don't know any zergs who are complaining about balance at the pro level. The problem is that the skill required to play effectively in ZvT is too high for the vast majority of active players. This wouldn't be a problem if it affected both races equally, but it only affects zerg.
Sorry, but as long as the amount of Zerg player does not drop drastically in Top Diamond/master+ level. This statement will be very subjective.
And, even if it's true. I''l say : Good thing !!! I'm gonna switch to Zerg for good, the same way i switched to Terran when pro-zerg patches get into the game. As long as it does not affect Pro level like it does in Wol-super-Zerg-era, i'm okay with that.
I can't play a lot right now, but when I offrace Zerg my ZvT winrate hasn't drop. It's harder to win, but highly manageable. And i haven't really tried the new units yet. But i've never played mass infestor-style in Wol, so maybe it's because i'm used to attack and multitask consistently...
|
On May 12 2013 22:53 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2013 20:48 scypio wrote:On May 12 2013 19:48 ETisME wrote:On May 12 2013 17:46 scypio:On May 12 2013 17:28 ETisME wrote:On May 12 2013 17:21 scypio wrote:On May 12 2013 17:03 Decendos wrote:On May 12 2013 16:51 scypio wrote:
I think there are some things getting mixed up in this thread. We can see some true balance complaints like:
"ZvT is almost unwinnable and all the Zergs will disappear from the tourneys, ladder etc". Tournament results and the long list of the zerg players that seem to be doing fine within the current metagame say otherwise.
And than there is another set of complaints that can be summed up with a statement: "I don't like the current meta/gameplay". This is understandable - for example a coinflip is pretty balanced, but it is not a lot of fun to watch (unless it's at Dreamhack).
Let's say little Johnny doesn't like MMM-based TvP and thinks that the right way to play versus Protoss is a 4-port banshee. Pretty soon you would see Johnny posting on TL with the idea of increasing the range, damage and hp on the banshee by 50% to make his goto strategy viable.
This is exactly what the zergies do: my (WoL) strat is not working, other strats(bust) are stupid: blizzard go nerf hellbat, speedvacs and widow mines!
For me saying things like "well, the game has been out for two months, I've played 100 games on the ladder and nothing's gonna change, blizzard fix this!" seems a bit hasty. And the idea of sacrificing balance in favor of a better gameplay is flawed. except its the other way around. the old WoL style roach or roach bane all ins or roach nydus allins (which symbol already did in WoL and havent changed one bit) are working if T is bad/doesnt scout/plays insanely greedy. the new stuff in midgame doesnt work: swarmhosts, faster hydras dont work AT ALL, regenerating mutas work if you outplay opponent. the guy mentioning all the macro zergs are out while all the "all in/cheesy zerg" got in ro8 is true to the most part (obv not all macro zergs game are macro and the other way around). thats what all zerg players say is stupid: if you are on equal skill AND want to play a standard macro game TvZ is imbalanced. what makes it a bit more balanced are all the all ins Z does. once T figures them out (roach nydus all in etc. is easy scoutable, so is every roach warren with 2 reaper opening), TvZ will get a lot worse. lets see how it gets fixed. its just NO FUN at all to all in every TvZ right now because you will lose most macro games. But why would you think that two months is enough to say that the new toys that zergs got do not work? Early all-ins for the zerg work great because they haven't changed for the last two years. Every skilled zerg knows the timings to the last second, knows how to deal a final blow if the first wave does not cut it and can play these games out without thinking, The same goes for every single unit that terran has received in hots. Mines are new, but leapfrogging them forward is exactly the same (in terms of mechanics) like leapfrogging the tanks. And that's about it, terrans can bank on their WoL MMM(+T) control skills in every 4M game vs the zerg. On the other hand vipers and swarm hosts did not have any counterparts in WoL, therefore the skill to control them needs to be built from the ground up. Once again: if it took that long for the zergs to figure out how to use the WoL ling/infestor/broodlord composition to the max - how come 2 months is enough to say "this stuff is worthless"? ling infestors broodlords were available because of the map change (less rush), infestor change made ling infestor available. infestor broodlord came soon after the infestor got changed marine tank is much harder to execute than bio mine. mine has a lower attack priority and can deal with both air and land. Dodging the question? The transition into HotS is twice as tough for the zerg as it is for the terran: first of all, they need to learn how to deal with new situations (fighting on a minefield). Then they have totally new units they have no idea how to use (viper, swarm host). Still, they are doing pretty good in HotS, even if they depend on WoL compositions in vs T (but with the new ultras it is not the same really...). Do you really think that two months worth of games in such a scenario is enough to warrant a statement: "this stuff is worthless, blizzard step in"? I didn't dodge any question, you seem to think zerg took very long to go into broodlord infestor because one day they all woke up and notice how strong it is and I am merely telling you why that was the case, which was mostly due to blizzard's changes to map and unit. to answer your question: I can also say something like Terran has the new units and they haven't even get close to max-ing their potential, such as targetting with mines. I do think two months is worth stepping in but it's because I feel speedmedivac is a huge problem and causing a stagnate growth in metagame, ZvT is almost completely the same everywhere. There is only one tool to defend against all these speedmedivac, which is muta. We can't even use the new units because how mobile drops are and viper is less efficient than infestors atm You can say that, but you need to consider that the new units that terran has require the same skillset the old ones needed. Therefore the terrans do have a head start, while the zergs need to catch-up. It's not that you can't use new units, you just fall back to the things that worked (and work) because you're used to winning. Now is the time to try new compositions, learn how to use them, achieve proficiency with them. This is what Stephano did on numerous occasions in WoL and he seems to be doing it again in HotS. You say that two months is enough... ok, that's your opinion. I take a look at these four facts: 1. Pro zergs are doing fine in America, Korea and Europe. 2. Two months is not enough time to achieve proficiency with the new units the zergs got. 3. The terrans had a head start in the matchup, as their new units do not require new mechanics or thinking. 4. Pro-level TvZ is spectacular and action-packed. Therefore I disagree with you. "ZvT is now tough" or "ZvT is in stagnation (after two months...)" does not cut it for me. Ask yourself how many top top level terran has Stephano successfully beat with roach hydra. The problem doesn't always mean the solution must come from another unit composition. The medivac is forcing muta to defend drops, zerg doesn't have a lot of other options to choose from. You can't micro ling roach swarm host viper to kill drops Pro Zerg ain't doing all that good in korea considering gstl and how many zerg really qualify into ro8 from that huge zerg list. Pro level TvZ is purely bio mine and drop defense, 0 diversity. Where's mech and other varieties of Zerg unit composition? At least in wol we had mech, ling muta, ling infestor, ling infestor ultra into bl, or straight into bl infestor style
Yes, and pro level TvP has been MMMVG vs gateway+colo like forever. I watch a lot of starcraft and I didn't get tired watching TvP or TvZ throughout these two months. Also, you forgot to mention the aggressive (all-in) options the zerg has vs terran.
You're fed up with bio-mine and a neverending battle - well, I'm not even thou ZvT is probably my worst matchup on the ladder. I've watched 2/2 major tournaments we've had since HotS launch and I want more, especially because those ugly zergs won both of them.
|
On May 12 2013 22:59 Hryul wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2013 22:43 Chocobo wrote:On May 12 2013 09:39 AxionSteel wrote:After ages of frustration against zerg in LingsofLiberty, it certainly gives me a warm and fuzzy feeling to see all this QQ in here. Doesn't stop zerg from mopping up the tournaments and doing extremely well in Code S though I don't know any zergs who are complaining about balance at the pro level. The problem is that the skill required to play effectively in ZvT is too high for the vast majority of active players. This wouldn't be a problem if it affected both races equally, but it only affects zerg. It's nothing like other situations where it's like "yes, banelings are strong, you have to split your army up when you see them coming, or you have to protect yourself with tanks". Those are reasonable challenges that most players can learn to pull off. The skill and precision requires to deal with mines effectively is not. It requires so much effort, and is very punishing for any mistakes. Few diamond and masters players have the skill to ever be able to pull it off. So even though it's completely fair at the pro level, there's a problem for much of the ladder. This post highlights a unreasonable fatalistic stance: It is hard. I can't do it right now therefore only a few people can do it and all the others (including me) can't ever learn it. Zerg bias at its finest.
The deliberate ignorance of facts in here is starting to rival Fox News. It is simply a fact that it is significantly more difficult to engage a bio mine army in a cost efficient way than it is to split your marines when banelings come rolling in, or cast feedback on medivacs, or whatever.
|
On May 12 2013 23:10 scypio wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2013 22:53 ETisME wrote:On May 12 2013 20:48 scypio wrote:On May 12 2013 19:48 ETisME wrote:On May 12 2013 17:46 scypio:On May 12 2013 17:28 ETisME wrote:On May 12 2013 17:21 scypio wrote:On May 12 2013 17:03 Decendos wrote:On May 12 2013 16:51 scypio wrote:
I think there are some things getting mixed up in this thread. We can see some true balance complaints like:
"ZvT is almost unwinnable and all the Zergs will disappear from the tourneys, ladder etc". Tournament results and the long list of the zerg players that seem to be doing fine within the current metagame say otherwise.
And than there is another set of complaints that can be summed up with a statement: "I don't like the current meta/gameplay". This is understandable - for example a coinflip is pretty balanced, but it is not a lot of fun to watch (unless it's at Dreamhack).
Let's say little Johnny doesn't like MMM-based TvP and thinks that the right way to play versus Protoss is a 4-port banshee. Pretty soon you would see Johnny posting on TL with the idea of increasing the range, damage and hp on the banshee by 50% to make his goto strategy viable.
This is exactly what the zergies do: my (WoL) strat is not working, other strats(bust) are stupid: blizzard go nerf hellbat, speedvacs and widow mines!
For me saying things like "well, the game has been out for two months, I've played 100 games on the ladder and nothing's gonna change, blizzard fix this!" seems a bit hasty. And the idea of sacrificing balance in favor of a better gameplay is flawed. except its the other way around. the old WoL style roach or roach bane all ins or roach nydus allins (which symbol already did in WoL and havent changed one bit) are working if T is bad/doesnt scout/plays insanely greedy. the new stuff in midgame doesnt work: swarmhosts, faster hydras dont work AT ALL, regenerating mutas work if you outplay opponent. the guy mentioning all the macro zergs are out while all the "all in/cheesy zerg" got in ro8 is true to the most part (obv not all macro zergs game are macro and the other way around). thats what all zerg players say is stupid: if you are on equal skill AND want to play a standard macro game TvZ is imbalanced. what makes it a bit more balanced are all the all ins Z does. once T figures them out (roach nydus all in etc. is easy scoutable, so is every roach warren with 2 reaper opening), TvZ will get a lot worse. lets see how it gets fixed. its just NO FUN at all to all in every TvZ right now because you will lose most macro games. But why would you think that two months is enough to say that the new toys that zergs got do not work? Early all-ins for the zerg work great because they haven't changed for the last two years. Every skilled zerg knows the timings to the last second, knows how to deal a final blow if the first wave does not cut it and can play these games out without thinking, The same goes for every single unit that terran has received in hots. Mines are new, but leapfrogging them forward is exactly the same (in terms of mechanics) like leapfrogging the tanks. And that's about it, terrans can bank on their WoL MMM(+T) control skills in every 4M game vs the zerg. On the other hand vipers and swarm hosts did not have any counterparts in WoL, therefore the skill to control them needs to be built from the ground up. Once again: if it took that long for the zergs to figure out how to use the WoL ling/infestor/broodlord composition to the max - how come 2 months is enough to say "this stuff is worthless"? ling infestors broodlords were available because of the map change (less rush), infestor change made ling infestor available. infestor broodlord came soon after the infestor got changed marine tank is much harder to execute than bio mine. mine has a lower attack priority and can deal with both air and land. Dodging the question? The transition into HotS is twice as tough for the zerg as it is for the terran: first of all, they need to learn how to deal with new situations (fighting on a minefield). Then they have totally new units they have no idea how to use (viper, swarm host). Still, they are doing pretty good in HotS, even if they depend on WoL compositions in vs T (but with the new ultras it is not the same really...). Do you really think that two months worth of games in such a scenario is enough to warrant a statement: "this stuff is worthless, blizzard step in"? I didn't dodge any question, you seem to think zerg took very long to go into broodlord infestor because one day they all woke up and notice how strong it is and I am merely telling you why that was the case, which was mostly due to blizzard's changes to map and unit. to answer your question: I can also say something like Terran has the new units and they haven't even get close to max-ing their potential, such as targetting with mines. I do think two months is worth stepping in but it's because I feel speedmedivac is a huge problem and causing a stagnate growth in metagame, ZvT is almost completely the same everywhere. There is only one tool to defend against all these speedmedivac, which is muta. We can't even use the new units because how mobile drops are and viper is less efficient than infestors atm You can say that, but you need to consider that the new units that terran has require the same skillset the old ones needed. Therefore the terrans do have a head start, while the zergs need to catch-up. It's not that you can't use new units, you just fall back to the things that worked (and work) because you're used to winning. Now is the time to try new compositions, learn how to use them, achieve proficiency with them. This is what Stephano did on numerous occasions in WoL and he seems to be doing it again in HotS. You say that two months is enough... ok, that's your opinion. I take a look at these four facts: 1. Pro zergs are doing fine in America, Korea and Europe. 2. Two months is not enough time to achieve proficiency with the new units the zergs got. 3. The terrans had a head start in the matchup, as their new units do not require new mechanics or thinking. 4. Pro-level TvZ is spectacular and action-packed. Therefore I disagree with you. "ZvT is now tough" or "ZvT is in stagnation (after two months...)" does not cut it for me. Ask yourself how many top top level terran has Stephano successfully beat with roach hydra. The problem doesn't always mean the solution must come from another unit composition. The medivac is forcing muta to defend drops, zerg doesn't have a lot of other options to choose from. You can't micro ling roach swarm host viper to kill drops Pro Zerg ain't doing all that good in korea considering gstl and how many zerg really qualify into ro8 from that huge zerg list. Pro level TvZ is purely bio mine and drop defense, 0 diversity. Where's mech and other varieties of Zerg unit composition? At least in wol we had mech, ling muta, ling infestor, ling infestor ultra into bl, or straight into bl infestor style Yes, and pro level TvP has been MMMVG vs gateway+colo like forever. I watch a lot of starcraft and I didn't get tired watching TvP or TvZ throughout these two months. Also, you forgot to mention the aggressive (all-in) options the zerg has vs terran. You're fed up with bio-mine and a neverending battle - well, I'm not even thou ZvT is probably my worst matchup on the ladder. I've watched 2/2 major tournaments we've had since HotS launch and I want more, especially because those ugly zergs won both of them.
I play random and so I am not as biased as most people think. TvZ is fun because you can put on the aggression but zvt is a headbanging frustrating with the constant drop defense. There's no more careful timed drop, siege tank leapfrog movement. There is only raw mechanic battles which ducks to watch if you are into the strategy part.
tvp being bio only viable had always been a flaw, that's why blizzard wants more factory units in tvp, especially mech being viable during early stage of HOTS development plan
You might now be bored, but the game will last another 4 to 5 years minimal if lotv takes as long as hots to develop.
I seriously would be disappointed if tvp remains bio only for lotv expansion.
|
On May 12 2013 22:43 Chocobo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2013 09:39 AxionSteel wrote:After ages of frustration against zerg in LingsofLiberty, it certainly gives me a warm and fuzzy feeling to see all this QQ in here. Doesn't stop zerg from mopping up the tournaments and doing extremely well in Code S though I don't know any zergs who are complaining about balance at the pro level. The problem is that the skill required to play effectively in ZvT is too high for the vast majority of active players. This wouldn't be a problem if it affected both races equally, but it only affects zerg. It's nothing like other situations where it's like "yes, banelings are strong, you have to split your army up when you see them coming, or you have to protect yourself with tanks". Those are reasonable challenges that most players can learn to pull off. The skill and precision requires to deal with mines effectively is not. It requires so much effort, and is very punishing for any mistakes. Few diamond and masters players have the skill to ever be able to pull it off. So even though it's completely fair at the pro level, there's a problem for much of the ladder.
That's an assertion that it's difficult to prove or disprove, but looking at the only statistics I have, it's also difficult to take it seriously. Zerg remains significantly overrepresented in GM and Masters (aka. 'below pro level') almost everywhere.
Maybe some Zergs are just struggling because dealing with bio/mine requires a different skill-set from WoL-style Zerg play, and it isn't a skill-set that plays to their particular strengths. If I recall, people like Ret have made similar points in the past.
Overall NA ladder: 30.76% Zerg, 29.39% Terran.
GM NA ladder: 37.5% Zerg, 29.5% Terran
Masters NA ladder: 36.73% Zerg, 29.62% Terran
Overall EU ladder: 30.5% Zerg, 29.99% Terran.
GM EU ladder: 37% Zerg, 27.5% Terran
Masters EU ladder: 35.34% Zerg, 29.59% Terran
Overall KR ladder: 27.3% Zerg, 30.85% Terran.
GM KR ladder: 33.67% Zerg, 30.15% Terran
Masters KR ladder: 30.92% Zerg, 33.83% Terran
[source]
|
On May 12 2013 22:32 Chocobo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2013 05:13 DemigodcelpH wrote:On May 12 2013 02:56 Chocobo wrote:On May 11 2013 19:24 scypio wrote:On May 11 2013 18:41 Chocobo wrote:On May 11 2013 17:32 scypio wrote:
It seems that the "free 3 base + 75 drones" build no longer works in HotS. Oh well... suck it up and L2P, just the way the pro zergs did. "Suck it up and L2P" is just as silly and tiresome as the "everything I lose to is imbalanced" whiners. It adds nothing to the conversation, it makes no claim about balance, it adds nothing to the specific situations being discussed. BTW there are a lot of players who are "learning to play" and trying to improve against these strats every day. The issue is that despite our best efforts, it doesn't lead to anything. This isn't "wahh I lost, make it easier for me". It's "I am practicing for hours and hours and still getting destroyed no matter what I try". You could specifically tell me that you're using the same bio+mine build, with the same strategy and same attack timings, for 20 games in a row and I would still lose over 2/3 of the time (assuming I play for a macro game). Like the final months of WoL where protoss would always choose one allin or another in PvZ because there's so little hope if the game goes longer than 10 minutes... that's what ZvT is like now. OK then, since I play zerg too (33% of the time) I'll give you my insight on the matchup from a (terrible) zerg perspective. First of all, the mindset "I play the macro game" is incorrect. The zerg is a reactionary race and you need to react to what your opponent is doing. I guess if toss would go for a 1-gate 3-nexus you would try to do something about it and kill the expansion. Same goes for terrans who opt for a quick 3rd cc build. You need to scout and punish that, even if that means a lot of commitment (or even all-in). So every game I scout for a factory, and allin if I see one. That's not what I call a macro game. This is not WoL where you could just say "I want to macro and there is nothing you can do about it". That is pretty much the problem. I'm sorry, but at this skill level (where macro/injects/etc are not an issue) a player should have an advantage if he knows 100% what the opponent is doing. When every single game is 1-2 reapers into 10-11 minute bio mine push that doesn't stop for the rest of the entire game, and I lose the overwhelming majority of the time despite knowing exactly what I will face... and all of those losses are due to mines being very cost efficient and too difficult to fight effectively... I'm going to call that a slight problem with the game. I don't know what else to call it. Spoiled by the nightmare that was 2012 Wings of Liberty you're simply not used to playing a balanced game now, because I can assure that every non-Zerg player knew that Zerg was likely going BL/infestor but that didn't stop every Zerg player who could execute it getting high masters WoL has nothing to do with this, unless your argument is "zerg was OP for a while, and now it's only right that they should be trash for a while" which is a statement I disagree with.
It has everything to do with this, as it's direct evidence to your double-standard and entitled form of thinking. Now that the game is balanced for both players, because of your double-standard, you perceive it as imbalance.
On May 12 2013 05:13 DemigodcelpH wrote:Spoiled by the nightmare that was 2012 Wings of Liberty you're simply not used to playing a balanced game now, because I can assure that every non-Zerg player knew that Zerg was likely going BL/infestor but that didn't stop every Zerg player who could execute it getting high masters which was evidence by the fact that masters and GM brackets on all servers suddenly being majority Zerg after the early 2012 patch (nor did it stop unheard of foreign Zergs from taking games off of 4 time GSL champions) (not surprisingly there was no complaining from you as this point in time) and mines, from the perspective of balance, are nowhere near as close to as absurdly that was infestor/BL.
Re-quoting the post from before: why were you not complaining during this period of time? From this we can make the inference that you complain based on how well you are doing which is totally subjective and not a proper reason to complain. Zerg is still overrepresented in the higher leagues globally (but not the lower leagues) (as well as doing well in all major tournaments and competition), and just because you happen to be getting outplayed in ZvT doesn't mean you can cry about it and act like a victim. It's not Zerg. It's not Terran.
It's you not accepting that you're being outplayed because of some entitlement complex that likely stemmed from how long Blizzard let WoL run out of control balance-wise during 2012.
On May 12 2013 22:32 Chocobo wrote:Show nested quote +Furthermore knowing what an enemy is doing doesn't exempt you from being outplayed or guarantee you a victory. It certainly shouldn't guarantee a victory... but if you know exactly what is coming and still can't stop it the majority of the time, I think that makes a statement about the game.
Can't stop what? Terran from making a composition? You're simply not used to being outplayed because you subconsciously relate being allowed to drone to meaning that you should win when this is false.
|
On May 12 2013 23:18 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2013 23:10 scypio wrote:On May 12 2013 22:53 ETisME wrote:On May 12 2013 20:48 scypio wrote:On May 12 2013 19:48 ETisME wrote:On May 12 2013 17:46 scypio:On May 12 2013 17:28 ETisME wrote:On May 12 2013 17:21 scypio wrote:On May 12 2013 17:03 Decendos wrote:On May 12 2013 16:51 scypio wrote:
I think there are some things getting mixed up in this thread. We can see some true balance complaints like:
"ZvT is almost unwinnable and all the Zergs will disappear from the tourneys, ladder etc". Tournament results and the long list of the zerg players that seem to be doing fine within the current metagame say otherwise.
And than there is another set of complaints that can be summed up with a statement: "I don't like the current meta/gameplay". This is understandable - for example a coinflip is pretty balanced, but it is not a lot of fun to watch (unless it's at Dreamhack).
Let's say little Johnny doesn't like MMM-based TvP and thinks that the right way to play versus Protoss is a 4-port banshee. Pretty soon you would see Johnny posting on TL with the idea of increasing the range, damage and hp on the banshee by 50% to make his goto strategy viable.
This is exactly what the zergies do: my (WoL) strat is not working, other strats(bust) are stupid: blizzard go nerf hellbat, speedvacs and widow mines!
For me saying things like "well, the game has been out for two months, I've played 100 games on the ladder and nothing's gonna change, blizzard fix this!" seems a bit hasty. And the idea of sacrificing balance in favor of a better gameplay is flawed. except its the other way around. the old WoL style roach or roach bane all ins or roach nydus allins (which symbol already did in WoL and havent changed one bit) are working if T is bad/doesnt scout/plays insanely greedy. the new stuff in midgame doesnt work: swarmhosts, faster hydras dont work AT ALL, regenerating mutas work if you outplay opponent. the guy mentioning all the macro zergs are out while all the "all in/cheesy zerg" got in ro8 is true to the most part (obv not all macro zergs game are macro and the other way around). thats what all zerg players say is stupid: if you are on equal skill AND want to play a standard macro game TvZ is imbalanced. what makes it a bit more balanced are all the all ins Z does. once T figures them out (roach nydus all in etc. is easy scoutable, so is every roach warren with 2 reaper opening), TvZ will get a lot worse. lets see how it gets fixed. its just NO FUN at all to all in every TvZ right now because you will lose most macro games. But why would you think that two months is enough to say that the new toys that zergs got do not work? Early all-ins for the zerg work great because they haven't changed for the last two years. Every skilled zerg knows the timings to the last second, knows how to deal a final blow if the first wave does not cut it and can play these games out without thinking, The same goes for every single unit that terran has received in hots. Mines are new, but leapfrogging them forward is exactly the same (in terms of mechanics) like leapfrogging the tanks. And that's about it, terrans can bank on their WoL MMM(+T) control skills in every 4M game vs the zerg. On the other hand vipers and swarm hosts did not have any counterparts in WoL, therefore the skill to control them needs to be built from the ground up. Once again: if it took that long for the zergs to figure out how to use the WoL ling/infestor/broodlord composition to the max - how come 2 months is enough to say "this stuff is worthless"? ling infestors broodlords were available because of the map change (less rush), infestor change made ling infestor available. infestor broodlord came soon after the infestor got changed marine tank is much harder to execute than bio mine. mine has a lower attack priority and can deal with both air and land. Dodging the question? The transition into HotS is twice as tough for the zerg as it is for the terran: first of all, they need to learn how to deal with new situations (fighting on a minefield). Then they have totally new units they have no idea how to use (viper, swarm host). Still, they are doing pretty good in HotS, even if they depend on WoL compositions in vs T (but with the new ultras it is not the same really...). Do you really think that two months worth of games in such a scenario is enough to warrant a statement: "this stuff is worthless, blizzard step in"? I didn't dodge any question, you seem to think zerg took very long to go into broodlord infestor because one day they all woke up and notice how strong it is and I am merely telling you why that was the case, which was mostly due to blizzard's changes to map and unit. to answer your question: I can also say something like Terran has the new units and they haven't even get close to max-ing their potential, such as targetting with mines. I do think two months is worth stepping in but it's because I feel speedmedivac is a huge problem and causing a stagnate growth in metagame, ZvT is almost completely the same everywhere. There is only one tool to defend against all these speedmedivac, which is muta. We can't even use the new units because how mobile drops are and viper is less efficient than infestors atm You can say that, but you need to consider that the new units that terran has require the same skillset the old ones needed. Therefore the terrans do have a head start, while the zergs need to catch-up. It's not that you can't use new units, you just fall back to the things that worked (and work) because you're used to winning. Now is the time to try new compositions, learn how to use them, achieve proficiency with them. This is what Stephano did on numerous occasions in WoL and he seems to be doing it again in HotS. You say that two months is enough... ok, that's your opinion. I take a look at these four facts: 1. Pro zergs are doing fine in America, Korea and Europe. 2. Two months is not enough time to achieve proficiency with the new units the zergs got. 3. The terrans had a head start in the matchup, as their new units do not require new mechanics or thinking. 4. Pro-level TvZ is spectacular and action-packed. Therefore I disagree with you. "ZvT is now tough" or "ZvT is in stagnation (after two months...)" does not cut it for me. Ask yourself how many top top level terran has Stephano successfully beat with roach hydra. The problem doesn't always mean the solution must come from another unit composition. The medivac is forcing muta to defend drops, zerg doesn't have a lot of other options to choose from. You can't micro ling roach swarm host viper to kill drops Pro Zerg ain't doing all that good in korea considering gstl and how many zerg really qualify into ro8 from that huge zerg list. Pro level TvZ is purely bio mine and drop defense, 0 diversity. Where's mech and other varieties of Zerg unit composition? At least in wol we had mech, ling muta, ling infestor, ling infestor ultra into bl, or straight into bl infestor style Yes, and pro level TvP has been MMMVG vs gateway+colo like forever. I watch a lot of starcraft and I didn't get tired watching TvP or TvZ throughout these two months. Also, you forgot to mention the aggressive (all-in) options the zerg has vs terran. You're fed up with bio-mine and a neverending battle - well, I'm not even thou ZvT is probably my worst matchup on the ladder. I've watched 2/2 major tournaments we've had since HotS launch and I want more, especially because those ugly zergs won both of them. I play random and so I am not as biased as most people think. TvZ is fun because you can put on the aggression but zvt is a headbanging frustrating with the constant drop defense. There's no more careful timed drop, siege tank leapfrog movement. There is only raw mechanic battles which ducks to watch if you are into the strategy part. tvp being bio only viable had always been a flaw, that's why blizzard wants more factory units in tvp, especially mech being viable during early stage of HOTS development plan You might now be bored, but the game will last another 4 to 5 years minimal if lotv takes as long as hots to develop. I seriously would be disappointed if tvp remains bio only for lotv expansion.
Well, I play random too. As far as siege tanks go, I didn't like them all that much in WoL as the outcome of the games often felt very random. Terran decides to move, unsieges, zerg pounces and it's GG. I've seen far too many games that ended up like this. I like the mines a little more.
And no, I'm not bored - not with TvZ at least. I think this matchup needs some more time to evolve. Two months is a ridiculously low amount of time to state that nothing is gonna change here.
And I'd love some more ingame diversity - but how exactly would you achieve it?
|
The only really interesting thing here is....When is this getting implemented!!! I need this change right now! 
|
On May 12 2013 23:30 DemigodcelpH wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2013 22:32 Chocobo wrote:On May 12 2013 05:13 DemigodcelpH wrote:On May 12 2013 02:56 Chocobo wrote:On May 11 2013 19:24 scypio wrote:On May 11 2013 18:41 Chocobo wrote:On May 11 2013 17:32 scypio wrote:
It seems that the "free 3 base + 75 drones" build no longer works in HotS. Oh well... suck it up and L2P, just the way the pro zergs did. "Suck it up and L2P" is just as silly and tiresome as the "everything I lose to is imbalanced" whiners. It adds nothing to the conversation, it makes no claim about balance, it adds nothing to the specific situations being discussed. BTW there are a lot of players who are "learning to play" and trying to improve against these strats every day. The issue is that despite our best efforts, it doesn't lead to anything. This isn't "wahh I lost, make it easier for me". It's "I am practicing for hours and hours and still getting destroyed no matter what I try". You could specifically tell me that you're using the same bio+mine build, with the same strategy and same attack timings, for 20 games in a row and I would still lose over 2/3 of the time (assuming I play for a macro game). Like the final months of WoL where protoss would always choose one allin or another in PvZ because there's so little hope if the game goes longer than 10 minutes... that's what ZvT is like now. OK then, since I play zerg too (33% of the time) I'll give you my insight on the matchup from a (terrible) zerg perspective. First of all, the mindset "I play the macro game" is incorrect. The zerg is a reactionary race and you need to react to what your opponent is doing. I guess if toss would go for a 1-gate 3-nexus you would try to do something about it and kill the expansion. Same goes for terrans who opt for a quick 3rd cc build. You need to scout and punish that, even if that means a lot of commitment (or even all-in). So every game I scout for a factory, and allin if I see one. That's not what I call a macro game. This is not WoL where you could just say "I want to macro and there is nothing you can do about it". That is pretty much the problem. I'm sorry, but at this skill level (where macro/injects/etc are not an issue) a player should have an advantage if he knows 100% what the opponent is doing. When every single game is 1-2 reapers into 10-11 minute bio mine push that doesn't stop for the rest of the entire game, and I lose the overwhelming majority of the time despite knowing exactly what I will face... and all of those losses are due to mines being very cost efficient and too difficult to fight effectively... I'm going to call that a slight problem with the game. I don't know what else to call it. Spoiled by the nightmare that was 2012 Wings of Liberty you're simply not used to playing a balanced game now, because I can assure that every non-Zerg player knew that Zerg was likely going BL/infestor but that didn't stop every Zerg player who could execute it getting high masters WoL has nothing to do with this, unless your argument is "zerg was OP for a while, and now it's only right that they should be trash for a while" which is a statement I disagree with. It has everything to do with this, as it's direct evidence to your double-standard and entitled form of thinking. Now that the game is balanced for both players, because of your double-standard, you perceive it as imbalance.
Standard strawman argument.
On May 12 2013 05:13 DemigodcelpH wrote:Spoiled by the nightmare that was 2012 Wings of Liberty you're simply not used to playing a balanced game now, because I can assure that every non-Zerg player knew that Zerg was likely going BL/infestor but that didn't stop every Zerg player who could execute it getting high masters which was evidence by the fact that masters and GM brackets on all servers suddenly being majority Zerg after the early 2012 patch (nor did it stop unheard of foreign Zergs from taking games off of 4 time GSL champions) (not surprisingly there was no complaining from you as this point in time) and mines, from the perspective of balance, are nowhere near as close to as absurdly that was infestor/BL.
Re-quoting the post from before: why were you not complaining during this period of time?
I was. Not as loudly I suppose, since my own personal experience wasn't being ruined. I agreed with those who said infestor/BL is OP.
I don't believe infestor/BL was completely game-ruining since the early and mid game were fairly balanced, it was only when zerg got a critical mass of expensive units that things got bad. Unfortunately this is not the case now.
On May 12 2013 22:32 Chocobo wrote:Show nested quote +Furthermore knowing what an enemy is doing doesn't exempt you from being outplayed or guarantee you a victory. It certainly shouldn't guarantee a victory... but if you know exactly what is coming and still can't stop it the majority of the time, I think that makes a statement about the game.
Can't stop what? Terran from making a composition? You're simply not used to being outplayed because you subconsciously relate being allowed to drone to meaning that you should win when this is false.
One strawman after another after another. Did I say I should be allowed to easy take 4 bases and 8 gas and 80 drones? Did I say zerg should be able to prevent terran from teching to factory? I don't know where you are getting this stuff.
The "it" that I can't stop is the assault by bio + mines.
Let me put it this way. Suppose I tell you before the game starts that I'm going for a baneling bust. Are you going to win? Almost every time. Suppose I tell you I'm going infestor/ling/bane into eventual ultras. Are you going to win? Probably over 50% of the time, with the help of money saved on turrets and knowing what you're up against. Roach hydra? You'll win the majority time with pure bio with plenty of marauders.
Knowing exactly what you're going to be facing several minutes ahead of time should be an advantage, as you'll be able to prepare for it with the units that best counter what you're facing and you'll be ready to use tactics that defeat it, as well as make sure not to use any strats that lose to it.
When you have all of this going for you and still lose the majority of the time, something is wrong.
|
On May 12 2013 23:20 Dzerzhinsky wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2013 22:43 Chocobo wrote:On May 12 2013 09:39 AxionSteel wrote:After ages of frustration against zerg in LingsofLiberty, it certainly gives me a warm and fuzzy feeling to see all this QQ in here. Doesn't stop zerg from mopping up the tournaments and doing extremely well in Code S though I don't know any zergs who are complaining about balance at the pro level. The problem is that the skill required to play effectively in ZvT is too high for the vast majority of active players. This wouldn't be a problem if it affected both races equally, but it only affects zerg. It's nothing like other situations where it's like "yes, banelings are strong, you have to split your army up when you see them coming, or you have to protect yourself with tanks". Those are reasonable challenges that most players can learn to pull off. The skill and precision requires to deal with mines effectively is not. It requires so much effort, and is very punishing for any mistakes. Few diamond and masters players have the skill to ever be able to pull it off. So even though it's completely fair at the pro level, there's a problem for much of the ladder. That's an assertion that it's difficult to prove or disprove, but looking at the only statistics I have, it's also difficult to take it seriously. Zerg remains significantly overrepresented in GM and Masters (aka. 'below pro level') almost everywhere.
I don't think those numbers prove much, there are too many factors involved. The ladder population was pretty zerg-heavy before HotS was released and maybe few people have bothered to switch races yet, for example. I'd really be interested in seeing the winrate for each race matchup at different skill levels, specifically the games where more than 2 mines were produced... too bad we don't have access to those numbers.
BTW I am referring more to platinum through masters players, I think GM zergs are capable of dealing with mines about as well as the pros. I don't know exactly where the line is for "you must be this skilled to pass", I just know it's over the heads of the vast majority of players.
|
Knowing exactly what you're going to be facing several minutes ahead of time should be an advantage, as you'll be able to prepare for it with the units that best counter what you're facing and you'll be ready to use tactics that defeat it, as well as make sure not to use any strats that lose to it.
This is simply false.
If i tell you i'm gonna 2 Raxing you/4 gate/Bling bust, etc... You're right. Any All-in should be harder to pull off. And cheese should be auto-win right.
If you're going for a macro game and say the composition you're aiming for. You should not be in an advantage. I don't think anybody have said 'TvP is always MMM, T should loose cuz i know it even before the game is started' or 'PvZ is always Ling/infestor with few roachs, so P should win etc...'
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
