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Austria24422 Posts
On May 02 2013 04:25 Lugh wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2013 03:55 DarkLordOlli wrote:On May 02 2013 03:49 TheButtonmen wrote:On May 02 2013 03:46 DarkLordOlli wrote:On May 02 2013 03:46 Juggernaut477 wrote:
People outside of NA should not even be allowed to play in WCS NA Admins should start banning people for this. It's a completely different argument. Considering you're quite happy to dismiss people for simply disagreeing with you I wouldn't be too quick to ask mods to step in and remove bad posting. On May 02 2013 03:41 DarkLordOlli wrote:On May 02 2013 03:37 TheButtonmen wrote:On May 02 2013 03:34 DarkLordOlli wrote:On May 02 2013 03:30 TheButtonmen wrote:On May 02 2013 03:26 NEEDZMOAR wrote:On May 02 2013 02:59 Plansix wrote:On May 02 2013 02:49 MajOr wrote:
[quote]
that is beyond the point if its terrible or not we should be allowed to play in optimal conditions, which we arent at the moment So Nestea has to play against another person in KR in sub-optimal conditions(yesterday), but you shouldn't have to because you don't agree with the rule and think it is stupid? I get where you are coming from, but games have already been played by other players with the same issue. Turn it around, why should Nestea have to do it? Because the rules said so when he played his match and he followed them? Why are Major and Hero special? Not about them being special, it's about the rule being stupid in the first place. Suck it up? I have to put up with Koreans filling up WCS NA, you have to put up with the games having to be played on NA. It's mid-season, the tournament is what the tournament is, work on making the next one better rather then demanding certain players get special exemptions. Ah, so that's what this is about. Amazingly enough people are able to support different positions then you and still have valid opinions! If you're just going to ignore people who don't agree with you why are you bothering to waste time posting here? It's not about having a different opinion, that's fine. It's about arguing about something completely different. I'm saying that the rule affecting this game at hand is dumb. Yes it might be too late to change it now that it's already been active but it's still dumb. But this is something that MLG and the players (or whoever else is responsible) can address. People like you are arguing about the whole fucking system of allowing non-NA players to compete in NA, which means ultimately you're arguing about Blizzard's goals and intentions for what WCS should be. That doesn't belong here. That's a different discussion. So basically your argument is the rule is stupid because you think so? This simple rule that should have been clear from the very beginning solves A LOT. If KR vs KR are allowed to play on another server more players will want to play on other servers. Where will KR vs EU play? Why should they HAVE to play on NA? What if there are Battle.net issues on NA Servers and some players get an advantage because they played on another server? What if a NA player wants to play on another server? If you don't like this simple rule you will need a ton more which solve the problems caused by the lack of it. But you will probably also find it funny if you can't watch the match since you have to wait for a final deciscion of a referee how the situation will be handled. I prefer simple rules. Especially if you always have the possibility to play in another Tournament with better ping.
None of this matters as none of this is comparable.
Why this rule is stupid: players + viewers should be given the best possible conditions. This rule prevents that in certain scenarios when there's no reason at all. That's all.
Whether you like simple rules or not is completely irrelevant. Not like you have to come up with the rules or are actually affected by them yourself. The rules are however supposed to cover everything and make conditions for everybody as fair as possible and as good as possible.
This rule doesn't do that.
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On May 02 2013 04:33 Swagasaurus wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2013 04:25 fleeze wrote:On May 02 2013 04:24 Swagasaurus wrote:On May 02 2013 04:21 jinorazi wrote:On May 02 2013 04:20 Swagasaurus wrote:On May 02 2013 04:17 jinorazi wrote:On May 02 2013 03:58 Shellshock1122 wrote:On May 02 2013 03:56 kollin wrote:
Oh my fucking god this debate is so pointless. I disagree. If you want to post as part of this debate, you have to play by the debate's rules and servers. i think debate is pointless because there are two best options here: 1) let them play on kr 2) change rules so they can play on kr claiming this is wcs am and needs to be played am server is no different than following the leadership of a duck because that duck is a leader. throw away all sense for the sake of following a senseless rule. there are more positive benefits and makes more sense for two players, living in korea, to play on kr, it benefits players and viewers. there is ZERO benefit to force them playing on AM server, except make idiots happy that thinks wca am should be only limited to AM server for a online match. senseless rules need be changed, it'll make more sense for them to say "ok, rules need changing so lets change it" instead of "rules are rules and stick to it". You didn't read this thread at all, did you? the whole thread? only up to page 4, my first post...i woke up and see 40+ pages of debate and i was actually surprised by it. If you had at least skimmed through it first you would have seen the actual reasons Mlg gave for their reasoning and you wouldn't have had to make up your own. lol. those weren't reasons. it was just bad excuses. It might be an 'excuse' if they had done something wrong... You're free to see it however you like but in reality they've just explained why a rule is the way it is.
ORLY. care to quote the part where he explained anything that isn't obviously wrong?
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Fenrax
United States5018 Posts
On May 02 2013 04:11 Faveokatro wrote:
I don't think people would mind Koreans playing in WCS NA if they also lived here. The problem isn't xenophobia as many seem to imply, the problem is the risk of WCS NA, WCS EU, and WCS KR being 95% Korean watering down the entire ideal of a "Global" tournament. And then you end up with a ton of gamesmanship - let's say there are 3 players at the top of the GSL (for simplicity, I'm just going to use Innovation, Flash, and Jaedong). There would be a HUGE incentive for Flash to move to WCS NA, and Jaedong to move to WCS EU, so that each one is basically guaranteed a championship.
In the end, it really comes down to people who prefer watching club matches vs people who prefer watching international matches. Club teams bring a higher quality of play on average (look at the CL vs the WC, where half the teams flub completely and most of the remainder fall short of expectations based on talent). Yet there's huge appeal in the WC nonetheless.
It's quite tiring to read repeated insinuations of racism or xenophobia for anyone who isn't on board with completely open WCS tournaments. Just because the 2nd team of Spain would more than likely demolish the US doesn't mean I would want them playing for us next year.
The problem still is that this has nothing to with the topic. Letting them play on KR has no influence on the "Korean taking over WCS NA" situation whatsoever. MLG and parts of the NA are just disrespecting Major and Hero by enforcing a random form of punishment on them as if it was their fault. Hero and Major are two amazing players and parts of this community and making them scapegoats for your dissatisfaction with the general situation is vindictive behavior.
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On May 02 2013 04:25 Lugh wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2013 03:55 DarkLordOlli wrote:On May 02 2013 03:49 TheButtonmen wrote:On May 02 2013 03:46 DarkLordOlli wrote:On May 02 2013 03:46 Juggernaut477 wrote:
People outside of NA should not even be allowed to play in WCS NA Admins should start banning people for this. It's a completely different argument. Considering you're quite happy to dismiss people for simply disagreeing with you I wouldn't be too quick to ask mods to step in and remove bad posting. On May 02 2013 03:41 DarkLordOlli wrote:On May 02 2013 03:37 TheButtonmen wrote:On May 02 2013 03:34 DarkLordOlli wrote:On May 02 2013 03:30 TheButtonmen wrote:On May 02 2013 03:26 NEEDZMOAR wrote:On May 02 2013 02:59 Plansix wrote:On May 02 2013 02:49 MajOr wrote:
[quote]
that is beyond the point if its terrible or not we should be allowed to play in optimal conditions, which we arent at the moment So Nestea has to play against another person in KR in sub-optimal conditions(yesterday), but you shouldn't have to because you don't agree with the rule and think it is stupid? I get where you are coming from, but games have already been played by other players with the same issue. Turn it around, why should Nestea have to do it? Because the rules said so when he played his match and he followed them? Why are Major and Hero special? Not about them being special, it's about the rule being stupid in the first place. Suck it up? I have to put up with Koreans filling up WCS NA, you have to put up with the games having to be played on NA. It's mid-season, the tournament is what the tournament is, work on making the next one better rather then demanding certain players get special exemptions. Ah, so that's what this is about. Amazingly enough people are able to support different positions then you and still have valid opinions! If you're just going to ignore people who don't agree with you why are you bothering to waste time posting here? It's not about having a different opinion, that's fine. It's about arguing about something completely different. I'm saying that the rule affecting this game at hand is dumb. Yes it might be too late to change it now that it's already been active but it's still dumb. But this is something that MLG and the players (or whoever else is responsible) can address. People like you are arguing about the whole fucking system of allowing non-NA players to compete in NA, which means ultimately you're arguing about Blizzard's goals and intentions for what WCS should be. That doesn't belong here. That's a different discussion. So basically your argument is the rule is stupid because you think so? This simple rule that should have been clear from the very beginning solves A LOT. If KR vs KR are allowed to play on another server more players will want to play on other servers. Where will KR vs EU play? Why should they HAVE to play on NA? What if there are Battle.net issues on NA Servers and some players get an advantage because they played on another server? What if a NA player wants to play on another server? If you don't like this simple rule you will need a ton more which solve the problems caused by the lack of it. But you will probably also find it funny if you can't watch the match since you have to wait for a final deciscion of a referee how the situation will be handled. I prefer simple rules. Especially if you always have the possibility to play in another Tournament with better ping.
Players can choose to play on a different server if and only if both players agree to do so.
Seems simple enough to me, what situation isn't covered by this?
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On May 02 2013 04:27 diophan wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2013 04:11 Faveokatro wrote:
I don't think people would mind Koreans playing in WCS NA if they also lived here. The problem isn't xenophobia as many seem to imply, the problem is the risk of WCS NA, WCS EU, and WCS KR being 95% Korean watering down the entire ideal of a "Global" tournament. And then you end up with a ton of gamesmanship - let's say there are 3 players at the top of the GSL (for simplicity, I'm just going to use Innovation, Flash, and Jaedong). There would be a HUGE incentive for Flash to move to WCS NA, and Jaedong to move to WCS EU, so that each one is basically guaranteed a championship.
In the end, it really comes down to people who prefer watching club matches vs people who prefer watching international matches. Club teams bring a higher quality of play on average (look at the CL vs the WC, where half the teams flub completely and most of the remainder fall short of expectations based on talent). Yet there's huge appeal in the WC nonetheless.
It's quite tiring to read repeated insinuations of racism or xenophobia for anyone who isn't on board with completely open WCS tournaments. Just because the 2nd team of Spain would more than likely demolish the US doesn't mean I would want them playing for us next year. Well said. My main problem with region locking is lots of very good Koreans are locked out of money they can use to keep playing. It would be like if FIFA itself was in charge of 75% of salaries for all football players and distributed the money equally amongst the 20 players for each country. All 20 players from the US don't deserve to make a living off that money more than 21-40 in many European/South American powerhouses. Sure, some lesser known Koreans players can barely scrape by on team salaries, but I don't think it's fair for jobbers in NA to make a comfortable esports living when the 65th best player in Korea barely makes enough to live. I'm not saying everyone in NA is awful but a full Code S/Code A of just NA/SA players would have many very questionable inclusions. Also, what are the Chinese/SEA players supposed to do if they region lock? You either need to make a million different WCSs or do something moronic like make them play with Koreans, when the passport situation among China, Taiwan, and Korea would be a nightmare, not to mention in all liklihood none of them could qualify against Koreans anyway.
I think a solution like allotting up to 50% of the slots in each region to foreigners would allow for enough player movement without crippling the ability for Chinese/SEA players to get in, and allows some Koreans to play internationally.
On the point of earnings though, I remember reading about how viewership drops dramatically when foreigners/fan favorites fall out of tournaments. This is easily confirmed by GSL viewer count - you can always tell when MKP, Taeja, Flash, etc are in a group because the tally is much higher (just look at the the views of the groups compared with the previous GSL finals: http://www.gomtv.net/videos/index.gom?order=1&limit=10&subtype=0&page=2). Frankly put, viewers don't care about the minute quality of games as much as being able to root for someone they love. If we want Esports to grow, like it or not we need homegrown talent to bring in excitement, viewers, and down the line, ad dollars. Yao Ming singlehandedly elevated the NBA in the minds of Chinese viewers, just like Mia Hamm did for women's soccer in the 90s - notice how both are markedly less popular in each region without them.
Having the regional tournaments crowded out damages our chances of that happening with SC2. The best analogue might be NFL Europe - how many Europeans were impact players or came back to the US? Very, very few, because they're competing for playing time against former NCAA athletes and former pros, and got practically no development.
Edit:
On May 02 2013 04:37 Fenrax wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2013 04:11 Faveokatro wrote:
I don't think people would mind Koreans playing in WCS NA if they also lived here. The problem isn't xenophobia as many seem to imply, the problem is the risk of WCS NA, WCS EU, and WCS KR being 95% Korean watering down the entire ideal of a "Global" tournament. And then you end up with a ton of gamesmanship - let's say there are 3 players at the top of the GSL (for simplicity, I'm just going to use Innovation, Flash, and Jaedong). There would be a HUGE incentive for Flash to move to WCS NA, and Jaedong to move to WCS EU, so that each one is basically guaranteed a championship.
In the end, it really comes down to people who prefer watching club matches vs people who prefer watching international matches. Club teams bring a higher quality of play on average (look at the CL vs the WC, where half the teams flub completely and most of the remainder fall short of expectations based on talent). Yet there's huge appeal in the WC nonetheless.
It's quite tiring to read repeated insinuations of racism or xenophobia for anyone who isn't on board with completely open WCS tournaments. Just because the 2nd team of Spain would more than likely demolish the US doesn't mean I would want them playing for us next year. The problem still is that this has nothing to with the topic. Letting them play on KR has no influence on the "Korean taking over WCS NA" situation whatsoever. MLG and parts of the NA are just disrespecting Major and Hero by enforcing a random form of punishment on them as if it was their fault. Hero and Major are two amazing players and parts of this community and making them scapegoats for your dissatisfaction with the general situation is vindictive behavior.
Read my post before that. Letting them play on KR would go against the previous implementation of the rules, and set a terrible precedent and expectation for admins to break rules whenever someone complained. You *never* alter the ruleset after it has already been used in the same field of play (in this case, a tournament). You wait until after. And this isn't scapegoating Hero and Major either, nobody on this thread has said a word against them beyond pointing out that Major likes to complain.
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So wait, I'm not sure if I understand this:
1. Did they both sign up to play in the NA regional qualifiers?
1a. If so what is the problem? Having regional qualifiers makes no sense if they don't represent the region. The whole point of a regional qualifier is to find the best player in that region. They should have signed up for the KR qualifier then /duh.
2.
It degrades the WCS tournament by knowingly allowing the level of competition to be lowered, is a discourtesy to the players who want to be able to fully show the skills they have honed through hundreds of hours of practice, and is a disservice to the fans who are expecting the be shown the highest level of gameplay possible.
I don't get this from the OP. The whole reason why Koreans are signing up for the NA server is because they know it is easier for them. This degrades the gameplay. If they really wanted to try the hardest and displayer their "highest level of gameplay possible", they would play with people they consider at their skill level (aka KR region).
3.
Weren't these rules explicitly posted before the tournament began? I've barely followed WCS and I was aware of these conditions. Does no one read the rules before they sign up to tournaments anymore?
IMO: this whole situation is a joke. WCS looks like we have a bunch of players running around looking and signing up for what they hope is the easiest bracket so they can make it to the finals. This is like having out of state college players signing to a team and expecting the school to move the games to their home town.
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Fenrax
United States5018 Posts
On May 02 2013 04:44 Faveokatro wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2013 04:27 diophan wrote:On May 02 2013 04:11 Faveokatro wrote:
I don't think people would mind Koreans playing in WCS NA if they also lived here. The problem isn't xenophobia as many seem to imply, the problem is the risk of WCS NA, WCS EU, and WCS KR being 95% Korean watering down the entire ideal of a "Global" tournament. And then you end up with a ton of gamesmanship - let's say there are 3 players at the top of the GSL (for simplicity, I'm just going to use Innovation, Flash, and Jaedong). There would be a HUGE incentive for Flash to move to WCS NA, and Jaedong to move to WCS EU, so that each one is basically guaranteed a championship.
In the end, it really comes down to people who prefer watching club matches vs people who prefer watching international matches. Club teams bring a higher quality of play on average (look at the CL vs the WC, where half the teams flub completely and most of the remainder fall short of expectations based on talent). Yet there's huge appeal in the WC nonetheless.
It's quite tiring to read repeated insinuations of racism or xenophobia for anyone who isn't on board with completely open WCS tournaments. Just because the 2nd team of Spain would more than likely demolish the US doesn't mean I would want them playing for us next year. Well said. My main problem with region locking is lots of very good Koreans are locked out of money they can use to keep playing. It would be like if FIFA itself was in charge of 75% of salaries for all football players and distributed the money equally amongst the 20 players for each country. All 20 players from the US don't deserve to make a living off that money more than 21-40 in many European/South American powerhouses. Sure, some lesser known Koreans players can barely scrape by on team salaries, but I don't think it's fair for jobbers in NA to make a comfortable esports living when the 65th best player in Korea barely makes enough to live. I'm not saying everyone in NA is awful but a full Code S/Code A of just NA/SA players would have many very questionable inclusions. Also, what are the Chinese/SEA players supposed to do if they region lock? You either need to make a million different WCSs or do something moronic like make them play with Koreans, when the passport situation among China, Taiwan, and Korea would be a nightmare, not to mention in all liklihood none of them could qualify against Koreans anyway. I think a solution like allotting up to 50% of the slots in each region to foreigners would allow for enough player movement without crippling the ability for Chinese/SEA players to get in, and allows some Koreans to play internationally. On the point of earnings though, I remember reading about how viewership drops dramatically when foreigners/fan favorites fall out of tournaments. This is easily confirmed by GSL viewer count - you can always tell when MKP, Taeja, Flash, etc are in a group because the tally is much higher (just look at the the views of the groups compared with the previous GSL finals: http://www.gomtv.net/videos/index.gom?order=1&limit=10&subtype=0&page=2). Frankly put, viewers don't care about the minute quality of games as much as being able to root for someone they love. If we want Esports to grow, like it or not we need homegrown talent to bring in excitement, viewers, and down the line, ad dollars. Yao Ming singlehandedly elevated the NBA in the minds of Chinese viewers, just like Mia Hamm did for women's soccer in the 90s - notice how both are markedly less popular in each region without them. Having the regional tournaments crowded out damages our chances of that happening with SC2. The best analogue might be NFL Europe - how many Europeans were impact players or came back to the US? Very, very few, because they're competing for playing time against former NCAA athletes and former pros, and got practically no development.
I understand your frustration about the situation but the only thing not allowing Hero and Major to play on KR does is punishing these two guys by letting your frustration about the situation out on them and punishing the audience by making them watch inferior games. It has no influence whatsoever on the "Koreans are taking over NA" situation. There are no benefits. None, zero, nada.
Hero and Major are both awesome players and personalities and they deserve better.
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On May 02 2013 04:37 fleeze wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2013 04:33 Swagasaurus wrote:On May 02 2013 04:25 fleeze wrote:On May 02 2013 04:24 Swagasaurus wrote:On May 02 2013 04:21 jinorazi wrote:On May 02 2013 04:20 Swagasaurus wrote:On May 02 2013 04:17 jinorazi wrote:On May 02 2013 03:58 Shellshock1122 wrote:On May 02 2013 03:56 kollin wrote:
Oh my fucking god this debate is so pointless. I disagree. If you want to post as part of this debate, you have to play by the debate's rules and servers. i think debate is pointless because there are two best options here: 1) let them play on kr 2) change rules so they can play on kr claiming this is wcs am and needs to be played am server is no different than following the leadership of a duck because that duck is a leader. throw away all sense for the sake of following a senseless rule. there are more positive benefits and makes more sense for two players, living in korea, to play on kr, it benefits players and viewers. there is ZERO benefit to force them playing on AM server, except make idiots happy that thinks wca am should be only limited to AM server for a online match. senseless rules need be changed, it'll make more sense for them to say "ok, rules need changing so lets change it" instead of "rules are rules and stick to it". You didn't read this thread at all, did you? the whole thread? only up to page 4, my first post...i woke up and see 40+ pages of debate and i was actually surprised by it. If you had at least skimmed through it first you would have seen the actual reasons Mlg gave for their reasoning and you wouldn't have had to make up your own. lol. those weren't reasons. it was just bad excuses. It might be an 'excuse' if they had done something wrong... You're free to see it however you like but in reality they've just explained why a rule is the way it is. ORLY. care to quote the part where he explained anything that isn't obviously wrong?
You don't seem to understand that 'obviously wrong' is just your own opinion in this case, would mlg even bother responding to this if it was obviously wrong? I won't bother quoting as I'm on a mobile atm and this will be my last post cause I should get back to work
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On May 02 2013 04:48 Rowrin wrote:2. Show nested quote +It degrades the WCS tournament by knowingly allowing the level of competition to be lowered, is a discourtesy to the players who want to be able to fully show the skills they have honed through hundreds of hours of practice, and is a disservice to the fans who are expecting the be shown the highest level of gameplay possible. I don't get this from the OP. The whole reason why Koreans are signing up for the NA server is because they know it is easier for them. This degrades the gameplay. If they really wanted to try the hardest and displayer their "highest level of gameplay possible", they would play with people they consider at their skill level (aka KR region).
I think Nestea is well aware at this point he wouldn't be in Code S Korea so he went to AM WCS. Only 32 Koreans can be in Code S, and Nestea isn't top 32 anymore sadly. Life, Flash, and Innovation didn't region hop because they don't need to to stay in Code S. However, Nestea is apparently better than almost everyone in NA still so the competition level in WCS AM improves because of it. Nestea was in Code B before switching to NA so we wouldn't be seeing him play otherwise.
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On May 02 2013 04:51 Fenrax wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2013 04:44 Faveokatro wrote:On May 02 2013 04:27 diophan wrote:On May 02 2013 04:11 Faveokatro wrote:
I don't think people would mind Koreans playing in WCS NA if they also lived here. The problem isn't xenophobia as many seem to imply, the problem is the risk of WCS NA, WCS EU, and WCS KR being 95% Korean watering down the entire ideal of a "Global" tournament. And then you end up with a ton of gamesmanship - let's say there are 3 players at the top of the GSL (for simplicity, I'm just going to use Innovation, Flash, and Jaedong). There would be a HUGE incentive for Flash to move to WCS NA, and Jaedong to move to WCS EU, so that each one is basically guaranteed a championship.
In the end, it really comes down to people who prefer watching club matches vs people who prefer watching international matches. Club teams bring a higher quality of play on average (look at the CL vs the WC, where half the teams flub completely and most of the remainder fall short of expectations based on talent). Yet there's huge appeal in the WC nonetheless.
It's quite tiring to read repeated insinuations of racism or xenophobia for anyone who isn't on board with completely open WCS tournaments. Just because the 2nd team of Spain would more than likely demolish the US doesn't mean I would want them playing for us next year. Well said. My main problem with region locking is lots of very good Koreans are locked out of money they can use to keep playing. It would be like if FIFA itself was in charge of 75% of salaries for all football players and distributed the money equally amongst the 20 players for each country. All 20 players from the US don't deserve to make a living off that money more than 21-40 in many European/South American powerhouses. Sure, some lesser known Koreans players can barely scrape by on team salaries, but I don't think it's fair for jobbers in NA to make a comfortable esports living when the 65th best player in Korea barely makes enough to live. I'm not saying everyone in NA is awful but a full Code S/Code A of just NA/SA players would have many very questionable inclusions. Also, what are the Chinese/SEA players supposed to do if they region lock? You either need to make a million different WCSs or do something moronic like make them play with Koreans, when the passport situation among China, Taiwan, and Korea would be a nightmare, not to mention in all liklihood none of them could qualify against Koreans anyway. I think a solution like allotting up to 50% of the slots in each region to foreigners would allow for enough player movement without crippling the ability for Chinese/SEA players to get in, and allows some Koreans to play internationally. On the point of earnings though, I remember reading about how viewership drops dramatically when foreigners/fan favorites fall out of tournaments. This is easily confirmed by GSL viewer count - you can always tell when MKP, Taeja, Flash, etc are in a group because the tally is much higher (just look at the the views of the groups compared with the previous GSL finals: http://www.gomtv.net/videos/index.gom?order=1&limit=10&subtype=0&page=2). Frankly put, viewers don't care about the minute quality of games as much as being able to root for someone they love. If we want Esports to grow, like it or not we need homegrown talent to bring in excitement, viewers, and down the line, ad dollars. Yao Ming singlehandedly elevated the NBA in the minds of Chinese viewers, just like Mia Hamm did for women's soccer in the 90s - notice how both are markedly less popular in each region without them. Having the regional tournaments crowded out damages our chances of that happening with SC2. The best analogue might be NFL Europe - how many Europeans were impact players or came back to the US? Very, very few, because they're competing for playing time against former NCAA athletes and former pros, and got practically no development. I understand your frustration about the situation but the only thing not allowing Hero and Major to play on KR does is punishing these two guys by letting your frustration about the situation out on them and punishing the audience by making them watch inferior games. It has no influence whatsoever on the "Koreans are taking over NA" situation. There are no benefits. None, zero, nada. Hero and Major are both awesome players and personalities and they deserve better.
This would be a great issue to raise between seasons to change future WCS rulesets but the rule they're arguing against is already part of the ruleset and has already effected players.
Letting them play on KR would go against the previous implementation of the rules, and set a terrible precedent and expectation for admins to break rules whenever someone complained. You *never* alter the ruleset after it has already been used in the same field of play (in this case, a tournament). You wait until after. And this isn't scapegoating Hero and Major either, nobody on this thread has said a word against them beyond pointing out that Major likes to complain.
Like they're saying this isn't about shitting on Hero/Major or punishing them. It's just the administrators applying the rules consistently and evenly, the players who have already played their matches played under this rule.
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On May 02 2013 04:51 Fenrax wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2013 04:44 Faveokatro wrote:On May 02 2013 04:27 diophan wrote:On May 02 2013 04:11 Faveokatro wrote:
I don't think people would mind Koreans playing in WCS NA if they also lived here. The problem isn't xenophobia as many seem to imply, the problem is the risk of WCS NA, WCS EU, and WCS KR being 95% Korean watering down the entire ideal of a "Global" tournament. And then you end up with a ton of gamesmanship - let's say there are 3 players at the top of the GSL (for simplicity, I'm just going to use Innovation, Flash, and Jaedong). There would be a HUGE incentive for Flash to move to WCS NA, and Jaedong to move to WCS EU, so that each one is basically guaranteed a championship.
In the end, it really comes down to people who prefer watching club matches vs people who prefer watching international matches. Club teams bring a higher quality of play on average (look at the CL vs the WC, where half the teams flub completely and most of the remainder fall short of expectations based on talent). Yet there's huge appeal in the WC nonetheless.
It's quite tiring to read repeated insinuations of racism or xenophobia for anyone who isn't on board with completely open WCS tournaments. Just because the 2nd team of Spain would more than likely demolish the US doesn't mean I would want them playing for us next year. Well said. My main problem with region locking is lots of very good Koreans are locked out of money they can use to keep playing. It would be like if FIFA itself was in charge of 75% of salaries for all football players and distributed the money equally amongst the 20 players for each country. All 20 players from the US don't deserve to make a living off that money more than 21-40 in many European/South American powerhouses. Sure, some lesser known Koreans players can barely scrape by on team salaries, but I don't think it's fair for jobbers in NA to make a comfortable esports living when the 65th best player in Korea barely makes enough to live. I'm not saying everyone in NA is awful but a full Code S/Code A of just NA/SA players would have many very questionable inclusions. Also, what are the Chinese/SEA players supposed to do if they region lock? You either need to make a million different WCSs or do something moronic like make them play with Koreans, when the passport situation among China, Taiwan, and Korea would be a nightmare, not to mention in all liklihood none of them could qualify against Koreans anyway. I think a solution like allotting up to 50% of the slots in each region to foreigners would allow for enough player movement without crippling the ability for Chinese/SEA players to get in, and allows some Koreans to play internationally. On the point of earnings though, I remember reading about how viewership drops dramatically when foreigners/fan favorites fall out of tournaments. This is easily confirmed by GSL viewer count - you can always tell when MKP, Taeja, Flash, etc are in a group because the tally is much higher (just look at the the views of the groups compared with the previous GSL finals: http://www.gomtv.net/videos/index.gom?order=1&limit=10&subtype=0&page=2). Frankly put, viewers don't care about the minute quality of games as much as being able to root for someone they love. If we want Esports to grow, like it or not we need homegrown talent to bring in excitement, viewers, and down the line, ad dollars. Yao Ming singlehandedly elevated the NBA in the minds of Chinese viewers, just like Mia Hamm did for women's soccer in the 90s - notice how both are markedly less popular in each region without them. Having the regional tournaments crowded out damages our chances of that happening with SC2. The best analogue might be NFL Europe - how many Europeans were impact players or came back to the US? Very, very few, because they're competing for playing time against former NCAA athletes and former pros, and got practically no development. I understand your frustration about the situation but the only thing not allowing Hero and Major to play on KR does is punishing these two guys by letting your frustration about the situation out on them and punishing the audience by making them watch inferior games. It has no influence whatsoever on the "Koreans are taking over NA" situation. There are no benefits. None, zero, nada. Hero and Major are both awesome players and personalities and they deserve better.
I don't see how they're being punished? They should have been expecting to play on NA servers against non-KR players at the very least, and this would be one of the few games where they're actually NOT at a relative disadvantage.
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NA WCS. NA WCS. NA WCS. NA WCS. NA WCS. NA WCS. NA WCS. NA WCS. NA WCS. NA WCS.
I don't see what people don't understand. You want to play in NA WCS? Playing on NA shouldn't be a problem. If you're gonna try to farm what you see as a weaker area, you should have the dignity to not ask for them to accommodate the fact that you aren't actually from that region.
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On May 02 2013 05:01 Mohdoo wrote:
NA WCS. NA WCS. NA WCS. NA WCS. NA WCS. NA WCS. NA WCS. NA WCS. NA WCS. NA WCS.
I don't see what people don't understand. You want to play in NA WCS? Playing on NA shouldn't be a problem. If you're gonna try to farm what you see as a weaker area, you should have the dignity to not ask for them to accommodate the fact that you aren't actually from that region.
Do you know who Major is?
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Fenrax
United States5018 Posts
On May 02 2013 04:57 TheButtonmen wrote:
Like they're saying this isn't about shitting on Hero/Major or punishing them. It's just the administrators applying the rules consistently and evenly, the players who have already played their matches played under this rule.
Claiming that this is about fairness for those who played before is phoney. It does not influence them in the slightest. This is not 50 pages of people being concerned about the integrity of the tournament. It is about being vindictive on people who live and practice in Korea because ther terken yer jerbs.
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On May 02 2013 05:01 Mohdoo wrote:
NA WCS. NA WCS. NA WCS. NA WCS. NA WCS. NA WCS. NA WCS. NA WCS. NA WCS. NA WCS.
I don't see what people don't understand. You want to play in NA WCS? Playing on NA shouldn't be a problem. If you're gonna try to farm what you see as a weaker area, you should have the dignity to not ask for them to accommodate the fact that you aren't actually from that region.
I don't think people are confused really. We just don't want to watch shitty, lag filled games, when we could watch awesome games without it actually doing anyone any harm. What I don't understand is why everyone's so into the idea of watching a lag-filled game for no reason at all.
If Blizzard really cared about this then they should've region locked, or said "you must live in the region to play in this WCS".
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Austria24422 Posts
On May 02 2013 05:00 Faveokatro wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2013 04:51 Fenrax wrote:On May 02 2013 04:44 Faveokatro wrote:On May 02 2013 04:27 diophan wrote:On May 02 2013 04:11 Faveokatro wrote:
I don't think people would mind Koreans playing in WCS NA if they also lived here. The problem isn't xenophobia as many seem to imply, the problem is the risk of WCS NA, WCS EU, and WCS KR being 95% Korean watering down the entire ideal of a "Global" tournament. And then you end up with a ton of gamesmanship - let's say there are 3 players at the top of the GSL (for simplicity, I'm just going to use Innovation, Flash, and Jaedong). There would be a HUGE incentive for Flash to move to WCS NA, and Jaedong to move to WCS EU, so that each one is basically guaranteed a championship.
In the end, it really comes down to people who prefer watching club matches vs people who prefer watching international matches. Club teams bring a higher quality of play on average (look at the CL vs the WC, where half the teams flub completely and most of the remainder fall short of expectations based on talent). Yet there's huge appeal in the WC nonetheless.
It's quite tiring to read repeated insinuations of racism or xenophobia for anyone who isn't on board with completely open WCS tournaments. Just because the 2nd team of Spain would more than likely demolish the US doesn't mean I would want them playing for us next year. Well said. My main problem with region locking is lots of very good Koreans are locked out of money they can use to keep playing. It would be like if FIFA itself was in charge of 75% of salaries for all football players and distributed the money equally amongst the 20 players for each country. All 20 players from the US don't deserve to make a living off that money more than 21-40 in many European/South American powerhouses. Sure, some lesser known Koreans players can barely scrape by on team salaries, but I don't think it's fair for jobbers in NA to make a comfortable esports living when the 65th best player in Korea barely makes enough to live. I'm not saying everyone in NA is awful but a full Code S/Code A of just NA/SA players would have many very questionable inclusions. Also, what are the Chinese/SEA players supposed to do if they region lock? You either need to make a million different WCSs or do something moronic like make them play with Koreans, when the passport situation among China, Taiwan, and Korea would be a nightmare, not to mention in all liklihood none of them could qualify against Koreans anyway. I think a solution like allotting up to 50% of the slots in each region to foreigners would allow for enough player movement without crippling the ability for Chinese/SEA players to get in, and allows some Koreans to play internationally. On the point of earnings though, I remember reading about how viewership drops dramatically when foreigners/fan favorites fall out of tournaments. This is easily confirmed by GSL viewer count - you can always tell when MKP, Taeja, Flash, etc are in a group because the tally is much higher (just look at the the views of the groups compared with the previous GSL finals: http://www.gomtv.net/videos/index.gom?order=1&limit=10&subtype=0&page=2). Frankly put, viewers don't care about the minute quality of games as much as being able to root for someone they love. If we want Esports to grow, like it or not we need homegrown talent to bring in excitement, viewers, and down the line, ad dollars. Yao Ming singlehandedly elevated the NBA in the minds of Chinese viewers, just like Mia Hamm did for women's soccer in the 90s - notice how both are markedly less popular in each region without them. Having the regional tournaments crowded out damages our chances of that happening with SC2. The best analogue might be NFL Europe - how many Europeans were impact players or came back to the US? Very, very few, because they're competing for playing time against former NCAA athletes and former pros, and got practically no development. I understand your frustration about the situation but the only thing not allowing Hero and Major to play on KR does is punishing these two guys by letting your frustration about the situation out on them and punishing the audience by making them watch inferior games. It has no influence whatsoever on the "Koreans are taking over NA" situation. There are no benefits. None, zero, nada. Hero and Major are both awesome players and personalities and they deserve better. I don't see how they're being punished? They should have been expecting to play on NA servers against non-KR players at the very least, and this would be one of the few games where they're actually NOT at a relative disadvantage.
Let's try an example. Parting vs Last on Akilon Wastes. Parting does a blink stalker allin, avoiding mine hits with blink. This isn't possible with any delay at all. Which means delay automatically eliminates some strategies, builds and entire gameplans. There's no reason for that however. I've seen HerO do similar things on stream so it's a fact that he's capable of doing that. But the latency eliminates that choice entirely. Major as the defender with mines doesn't care about the latency as much. So in a way it does punish the players as it takes away an opportunity for them to perform at their best (and viewers to experience it). I honestly think that whenever two non-America players face each other and they're from the same server region, the game should always be played there. Everybody profits from that.
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On May 02 2013 04:55 diophan wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2013 04:48 Rowrin wrote:2. It degrades the WCS tournament by knowingly allowing the level of competition to be lowered, is a discourtesy to the players who want to be able to fully show the skills they have honed through hundreds of hours of practice, and is a disservice to the fans who are expecting the be shown the highest level of gameplay possible. I don't get this from the OP. The whole reason why Koreans are signing up for the NA server is because they know it is easier for them. This degrades the gameplay. If they really wanted to try the hardest and displayer their "highest level of gameplay possible", they would play with people they consider at their skill level (aka KR region). ...However, Nestea is apparently better than almost everyone in NA still so the competition level in WCS AM improves because of it...
This logic perplexes me. How does injecting someone from another region better than almost everyone in the target region increase the competition? It is like having a college athlete sign up for a high school team and saying that will increase competition. This only works if you kick almost all the high school kids off the team and add more college players but then it is no longer a high school team...
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On May 02 2013 04:57 TheButtonmen wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2013 04:51 Fenrax wrote:On May 02 2013 04:44 Faveokatro wrote:On May 02 2013 04:27 diophan wrote:On May 02 2013 04:11 Faveokatro wrote:
I don't think people would mind Koreans playing in WCS NA if they also lived here. The problem isn't xenophobia as many seem to imply, the problem is the risk of WCS NA, WCS EU, and WCS KR being 95% Korean watering down the entire ideal of a "Global" tournament. And then you end up with a ton of gamesmanship - let's say there are 3 players at the top of the GSL (for simplicity, I'm just going to use Innovation, Flash, and Jaedong). There would be a HUGE incentive for Flash to move to WCS NA, and Jaedong to move to WCS EU, so that each one is basically guaranteed a championship.
In the end, it really comes down to people who prefer watching club matches vs people who prefer watching international matches. Club teams bring a higher quality of play on average (look at the CL vs the WC, where half the teams flub completely and most of the remainder fall short of expectations based on talent). Yet there's huge appeal in the WC nonetheless.
It's quite tiring to read repeated insinuations of racism or xenophobia for anyone who isn't on board with completely open WCS tournaments. Just because the 2nd team of Spain would more than likely demolish the US doesn't mean I would want them playing for us next year. Well said. My main problem with region locking is lots of very good Koreans are locked out of money they can use to keep playing. It would be like if FIFA itself was in charge of 75% of salaries for all football players and distributed the money equally amongst the 20 players for each country. All 20 players from the US don't deserve to make a living off that money more than 21-40 in many European/South American powerhouses. Sure, some lesser known Koreans players can barely scrape by on team salaries, but I don't think it's fair for jobbers in NA to make a comfortable esports living when the 65th best player in Korea barely makes enough to live. I'm not saying everyone in NA is awful but a full Code S/Code A of just NA/SA players would have many very questionable inclusions. Also, what are the Chinese/SEA players supposed to do if they region lock? You either need to make a million different WCSs or do something moronic like make them play with Koreans, when the passport situation among China, Taiwan, and Korea would be a nightmare, not to mention in all liklihood none of them could qualify against Koreans anyway. I think a solution like allotting up to 50% of the slots in each region to foreigners would allow for enough player movement without crippling the ability for Chinese/SEA players to get in, and allows some Koreans to play internationally. On the point of earnings though, I remember reading about how viewership drops dramatically when foreigners/fan favorites fall out of tournaments. This is easily confirmed by GSL viewer count - you can always tell when MKP, Taeja, Flash, etc are in a group because the tally is much higher (just look at the the views of the groups compared with the previous GSL finals: http://www.gomtv.net/videos/index.gom?order=1&limit=10&subtype=0&page=2). Frankly put, viewers don't care about the minute quality of games as much as being able to root for someone they love. If we want Esports to grow, like it or not we need homegrown talent to bring in excitement, viewers, and down the line, ad dollars. Yao Ming singlehandedly elevated the NBA in the minds of Chinese viewers, just like Mia Hamm did for women's soccer in the 90s - notice how both are markedly less popular in each region without them. Having the regional tournaments crowded out damages our chances of that happening with SC2. The best analogue might be NFL Europe - how many Europeans were impact players or came back to the US? Very, very few, because they're competing for playing time against former NCAA athletes and former pros, and got practically no development. I understand your frustration about the situation but the only thing not allowing Hero and Major to play on KR does is punishing these two guys by letting your frustration about the situation out on them and punishing the audience by making them watch inferior games. It has no influence whatsoever on the "Koreans are taking over NA" situation. There are no benefits. None, zero, nada. Hero and Major are both awesome players and personalities and they deserve better. This would be a great issue to raise between seasons to change future WCS rulesets but the rule they're arguing against is already part of the ruleset and has already effected players. Show nested quote +Letting them play on KR would go against the previous implementation of the rules, and set a terrible precedent and expectation for admins to break rules whenever someone complained. You *never* alter the ruleset after it has already been used in the same field of play (in this case, a tournament). You wait until after. And this isn't scapegoating Hero and Major either, nobody on this thread has said a word against them beyond pointing out that Major likes to complain. Like they're saying this isn't about shitting on Hero/Major or punishing them. It's just the administrators applying the rules consistently and evenly, the players who have already played their matches played under this rule.
The thing is, the part that has already "affected" players only made it worse. That's like if you held a live tournament where the computers lagged for the first couple of series, then you should make every other player have to use the lagging computers because two players had to before. It was a silly rule.
By the way... To those who think "If you didn't have latency then why wouldn't Koreans all switch to WCS AM"...
That argument is silly. The only time they would be able to play on KR server is when they faced another Korean, which would mean every match would have to be filled with Koreans. This probably wouldn't change the decisions of Koreans, since it would require them to progress through the American brackets through all of the foreigners while ON the American server until they reached Koreans, and only then would they be able to play on KR server. So it shouldn't affect much at all.
The best argument for KEEPING this rule is that the whole thing doesn't even matter any more because of how much all of the other shit that went down already botched the tournament. (WCS qualifiers, the region-locking system, etc.)
On May 02 2013 05:09 Rowrin wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2013 04:55 diophan wrote:On May 02 2013 04:48 Rowrin wrote:2. It degrades the WCS tournament by knowingly allowing the level of competition to be lowered, is a discourtesy to the players who want to be able to fully show the skills they have honed through hundreds of hours of practice, and is a disservice to the fans who are expecting the be shown the highest level of gameplay possible. I don't get this from the OP. The whole reason why Koreans are signing up for the NA server is because they know it is easier for them. This degrades the gameplay. If they really wanted to try the hardest and displayer their "highest level of gameplay possible", they would play with people they consider at their skill level (aka KR region). ...However, Nestea is apparently better than almost everyone in NA still so the competition level in WCS AM improves because of it... This logic perplexes me. How does injecting someone from another region better than almost everyone in the target region increase the competition? It is like having a college athlete sign up for a high school team and saying that will increase competition. This only works if you kick almost all the high school kids off the team and add more college players but then it is no longer a high school team...
The idea behind it is rather flawed, but sort of works? I think they want to have some Koreans there so that Americans don't ALL just dick around and not care about who wins. The current problem with NA players is that they do not put their HEART & SOUL into the game like Koreans do. They do not practice hardcore like Koreans and they do not care as much. If there is a large prize pool that only has a couple Koreans, they will think "I can get $20,000, all I have to do is beat a couple Koreans and Americans!" instead of "I can get $50,000, all I have to do is beat 8 Koreans in GSL!"
On May 02 2013 05:11 Vashalgrim wrote:
I don't think anyone is saying they want to watch shitty, lag filled games. However we have already had KR players play against each other, and I don't recall those games being shitty, lag filled games.
Just because you can't see it doesn't mean it's not there. Their play was undoubtedly affected by the latency, but you might not have noticed. Had there been 0 latency, you could have seen one really amazing game that was executed perfectly by both of them!
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On May 02 2013 05:05 Swords wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2013 05:01 Mohdoo wrote:
NA WCS. NA WCS. NA WCS. NA WCS. NA WCS. NA WCS. NA WCS. NA WCS. NA WCS. NA WCS.
I don't see what people don't understand. You want to play in NA WCS? Playing on NA shouldn't be a problem. If you're gonna try to farm what you see as a weaker area, you should have the dignity to not ask for them to accommodate the fact that you aren't actually from that region. I don't think people are confused really. We just don't want to watch shitty, lag filled games, when we could watch awesome games without it actually doing anyone any harm. What I don't understand is why everyone's so into the idea of watching a lag-filled game for no reason at all. If Blizzard really cared about this then they should've region locked, or said "you must live in the region to play in this WCS".
I don't think anyone is saying they want to watch shitty, lag filled games. However we have already had KR players play against each other, and I don't recall those games being shitty, lag filled games.
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On May 02 2013 05:09 Rowrin wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2013 04:55 diophan wrote:On May 02 2013 04:48 Rowrin wrote:2. It degrades the WCS tournament by knowingly allowing the level of competition to be lowered, is a discourtesy to the players who want to be able to fully show the skills they have honed through hundreds of hours of practice, and is a disservice to the fans who are expecting the be shown the highest level of gameplay possible. I don't get this from the OP. The whole reason why Koreans are signing up for the NA server is because they know it is easier for them. This degrades the gameplay. If they really wanted to try the hardest and displayer their "highest level of gameplay possible", they would play with people they consider at their skill level (aka KR region). ...However, Nestea is apparently better than almost everyone in NA still so the competition level in WCS AM improves because of it... This logic perplexes me. How does injecting someone from another region better than almost everyone in the target region increase the competition? It is like having a college athlete sign up for a high school team and saying that will increase competition. This only works if you kick almost all the high school kids off the team and add more college players but then it is no longer a high school team...
If a potentially washed up Korean is like a big league college player playing with high schoolers then that region probably shouldn't have a WCS, which is why Africa doesn't have its own WCS league. There are some good actual AM players to give the Koreans a run for their money though so this is a false analogy.
Also high school isn't professional sports; WCS is professional esports.
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EPT
