MajOr and HerO forced to play WCS Matches on NA? - Page 19

oBlade

United States5628 Posts

May 01 2013 08:53 GMT

#361

On May 01 2013 17:14 Silvanel wrote:
Lol people playing WCS America from Asia and still complaing? They shouldnt be allowed to play that way in the first place.

Well, did you throw a fit when a Swedish guy won MLG Dallas?

nihlon

Sweden5581 Posts

May 01 2013 08:53 GMT

#362

Reading some people's posts here you'd be under the impression Major is actually a Korean.

Highwinds

Canada955 Posts

May 01 2013 08:53 GMT

#363

this thread made me hate half the community of this site... Racist people don't want koreans in NA? Well guess what this literally is the worst decision possible hurts viewers and hurts the players and people agree with it. This is the only time I've been disgusted with TL people who don't seem to get it. Any high level player would understand that. Look at major's response and any other community member who responded in here.

Ragnarork

France9034 Posts

May 01 2013 08:54 GMT

#364

On May 01 2013 17:47 thepotatoman wrote:
I am curious what it's like to cast a live game off another server. If there's any noticeable lag from that, that's reason enough to force it to north american servers.

The only valid reason I think.

Otherwise, nothing, just nothing can justify it. (And certainly not the "It's WCS America, it should be played on NA server" argument).

Grovbolle

Denmark3805 Posts

May 01 2013 08:59 GMT

#365

I like how every mod/admin/red thinks this is the most horrible idea ever, and a lot of regular forum posters thinks it's fine because HerO/MajOr choose the region, and as such should be prepared to face the consequences. I am both for and against. Against because of the obvious lag for both players, delivering sub-par games.
For because there has to be some form of downside to not living in the region you are competing in.

Sated

England4983 Posts

May 01 2013 09:00 GMT

#366

--- Nuked ---

ACrow

Germany6583 Posts

May 01 2013 09:02 GMT

#367

On May 01 2013 17:54 Ragnarork wrote:

Show nested quote +

The only valid reason I think.

Otherwise, nothing, just nothing can justify it. (And certainly not the "It's WCS America, it should be played on NA server" argument).

I don't have any experience with this, but I'd just assume that the observer would have a lot of lag just like players would. If this is true, there shouldn't even be a discussion to change this rule, because watching a laggy observer would be really frustrating. You could solve this only by casting from replays that were played in KR, and that would really defy the purpose of the whole thing.
Put your pitchforks away guys, or rather use them for the really stupid things MLG did here, like the whole Chinese fiasco, only a single qualifier for premiere and an invite based qualifier for challenger. Now, those are things that are not ok...

MasterOfPuppets

Romania6942 Posts

May 01 2013 09:04 GMT

#368

On May 01 2013 17:59 Grovbolle wrote:
I like how every mod/admin/red thinks this is the most horrible idea ever, and a lot of regular forum posters thinks it's fine because HerO/MajOr choose the region, and as such should be prepared to face the consequences. I am both for and against. Against because of the obvious lag for both players, delivering sub-par games.
For because there has to be some form of downside to not living in the region you are competing in.

It really goes to show how emotional, irrational and ultimately ignorant most of the lay men are in this scene. Once again, "DEY TOOK ER JERBS" mentality shining through. People are bitter at the situation for the right reasons, but they're projecting it onto the wrong people.

So I say to them:
Blame Blizzard/MLG. Don't blame the players. They're the ones working their ass off 8-12 hrs a day for your enjoyment, you entitled, ignorant pricks.

Aeroplaneoverthesea

United Kingdom1977 Posts

May 01 2013 09:04 GMT

#369

On May 01 2013 17:53 Highwinds wrote:
this thread made me hate half the community of this site... Racist people don't want koreans in NA? Well guess what this literally is the worst decision possible hurts viewers and hurts the players and people agree with it. This is the only time I've been disgusted with TL people who don't seem to get it. Any high level player would understand that. Look at major's response and any other community member who responded in here.

So people are racist because they think American players should be playing in the American qualifier for an international event?

On May 01 2013 17:53 oBlade wrote:

Show nested quote +

Well, did you throw a fit when a Swedish guy won MLG Dallas?

MLG Dallas wasn't an American qualifier for a global event, it was the global event itself hosted in Dallas, Texas.

Do you see now why it's different?

Hrrrrm

United States2081 Posts

May 01 2013 09:05 GMT

#370

This has been covered already several times in the thread. The downside is when you have to play someone residing in NA and when you eventually have to come to NA to play your offline matches. Which Blizzard has said they want to make the entire tournament be offline. Which could come as early as Season 2 or next year, who knows. Till then though you should make the best out of what we CURRENTLY have and work with the players to have the best conditions possible.

Aeroplaneoverthesea

United Kingdom1977 Posts

May 01 2013 09:05 GMT

#371

On May 01 2013 18:04 MasterOfPuppets wrote:

Show nested quote +

People do blame Blizzard but it's still reasonably that we would want to Koreans and Europeans to lose.

Plexa

Aotearoa39261 Posts

May 01 2013 09:08 GMT

#372

On May 01 2013 17:45 m0ck wrote:

Show nested quote +

On May 01 2013 17:09 Plexa wrote:

On May 01 2013 16:55 m0ck wrote:

On May 01 2013 16:03 Plexa wrote:

On May 01 2013 15:54 sc2superfan101 wrote:

On May 01 2013 15:36 Dodgin wrote:
This thread should just be locked until someone is willing to answer Plexa

Okay:

"So please, someone who is supportive of this measure please explain to me how this is a GOOD decision, not merely an understandable one."

For one, it is bad precedent to change the rules in the middle of a season, even if said rules could be said to be "bad" rules; even if the rules were unclear. We should not change rules mid-season without very compelling reasons, and I do not think that this instance satisfies the criteria of what I would consider to be compelling.

Now, in a way, the question, or demand, of Plexa (and the others who made the same point) is a kind of trap. They don't want our (people who don't want the rule changed) reasons, obviously, because they've already been given our reasons and they weren't satisfied. What they want is to be convinced. But the problem is that what I may consider to be good reasons, they might not consider to be good reasons. What I see as a lack of good cause, they see as perfectly good cause. I can repeat that rules are rules and should not be bent for something like this until I am blue in the face (fingers), but if you don't agree that holding to the rules is important, or think that this warrants changing the rules, than you will obviously not find my reasons to be "GOOD".

Simply following the rules blindly makes it acceptable (at least, I hope these rules were available to the players well in advance.) That doesn't mean that this is a rule that should be retained in future seasons.

As I said before: Blizzard has made it clear that developing the scene in regions outside of KR is a concern to them, and at least part of the purpose of the new WCS system. Without going into arguments about how they could have done it better, or whether they are doing it correctly, we can understand, to some degree, the regional-play rule. It is an incentive to play in the region to which you reside in. Obviously there are other ways this could be done. However, they did not choose those ways. Their statements make it clear that they will be instituting even more incentives and disincentives in the future. It makes a certain kind of sense to have rules already in place that begin the incentivizing (I know that's not a word, get over it) process immediately.

Absolutely, but entirely irrelevant. This isn't a NA-KR issue or even an EU-KR issue, it only pertains to KR-KR matchups [and by extension, EU-EU]. In any matchup containing a NA based player there is not argument about what server it should be played on. So how is not being flexible in the rules to allow this series to be played on KR a disincentive for non-NA based players to participate in WCS America? It simply isn't. The over-riding disincentive for Korean based players to play America's WCS is the live portion of the competition - i.e. having to relocate to America to play these rounds.

Ultimately, all I can see that you've written is that it's a rule thus it should be upheld. Which is all fine and dandy, but doesn't make it something worth supporting for future seasons. If these issues aren't brought up now then there's no incentive for MLG or Blizzard to re-examine these rules for next season.

On the one hand, the damage is already done.

The international teams with Korean players decided that their short term interests (for themselves and their players) were more important than the health of the US SC2 scene, and had/allowed their players (to) forego the tournament of their home region in order to participate in US WCS (while incurring significant costs doing so). But now the players are locked in for the year and the result will be a Korean domination of the tournament (and if yesterday is any guide, low viewer-numbers). What (more) harm can be done by allowing the Korean players to take advantage of the online nature of the first portion of the tournament and simply let players situated in SK play each other in the region most suitable?

There's absolutely no harm to the Korean players as a result of forcing a KR-KR match to be played on NA (assuming the lag is stable from both houses, which sometimes can be an issues). The people who end up hurting the most in this are the viewers who get to watch a pretty average game instead of a really good game. Once again, we're not talking about forcing NA players to play on the Korean server - only making it acceptable for KR-KR matches to be played there.

The health of the US SC2 scene is a moot point in this issue.

On the other hand, the focus on the regionality of the tournament was emphasized from the beginning.

The players may not enjoy the extra layer of randomness that playing with lag adds, but it's part of the cost for getting the best of both worlds: The convenience and advantage of Korean practice and the "easy(er) money" of the WCS US tournament. The focus was never meant to be on the "best play possible", but rather was dual-headed: To make a great show while developing the respective scenes and fostering a more balanced level of play in the three regions. The mass influx of Korean players without commitment to the US scene has hampered the last part in the US. To change the rules would be a knee-fall to those players.

Blizzard's goals here are irrelevant to this debate. There are faults with their system, but they just aren't relevant to this situation and belong in another debate.

And there is an element of slippery slope also: Why have the ro16 and ro8 to finals in the US at all? If it's a field of solely SK/Asian-based players, why bother flying out 16 players to play in a studio without audience (I'm assuming the MLG Arena approach)? I realize that this will not happen, but from the "rational" perspective of your initial argument, what does it matter where a tournament in a studio is held? As long as it's broadcast at the appropriate time for the American audience. Imagine the savings in travel costs.

Actually, the 'flying out' is done at the expense of teams (costs are only covered when the players reside in the Americas). The region where the live event is held is important because that was aimed to be the deterrent for players from other regions to participate in WCS America -- obviously in practice it just prevented players without backing in participating. The goal (basically) was to replicate the GSL outside of Korea, and the live portion is a part of that. That is why the studio does matter.

You're really stretching things, though, to say that letting KR-KR matches be played on KR will lead to WCS America being played entirely in Korea. As I've tried to reiterate many times - NA-KR matches (and any match involving a NA player) is still played on the NA server. Nothing changes there.

You might say that keeping the games on the US server is petty, or at least inconsiderate. And I would agree somewhat. I'm not as big on rules as mr. superfan. But I also realize what a total botch of the US tournament the international teams with Korean players have made of WCS US. And to change the rules to accommodate those teams and players seem unnecessary and, one might add, humiliating.

Sure, again I can appreciate why they are upholding the rule. Just that I don't think it's a particularly good rule and one that should be change (and that no sane person should be championing this rule as a great thing).

A counter-point could be made: To have the nerve to ask for the changes in the rules to be made is extremely inconsiderate of the consequences of their actions from the players and teams involved. It seems very greedy. What you're saying is this: We want the WCS US to accommodate that our players in the are not situated in the US and that they will in fact only be in the US for the offline portion of the tournament.

Can you blame people when the response is "Hell fucking no!".

*Oh, where appropriate, substitute WCS US with AM.

Again, this is people misunderstanding the issue as a NA-KR issue, rather than KR-KR only.

No, I realize that this is an issue solely concerning KR players. But, nevertheless, you're asking the tournament to accommodate the players not situated in the US. Even if it's by something as insignificant as making the jump to different servers in between series (from NY, so there could be issues with this approach after all).

From the outset I was prepared to concede that nothing has to change this season (i.e. that this was an understandable decision). I only take issue with people thinking that this is indeed a 'good' decision and one that should be retained in future seasons.

I also know that the travel costs to the US are upheld by teams. That doesn't change the rationale of the argument. A tournament in a crowd-less studio might just as well be held in SK as in the US if it is more convenient. As far as I can tell, it's a logical extension of your argument - that this is solely an issue between players situated in SK. Well, it's not unlikely that the off-line parts of WCS AM will be just that. But (also) again, this will obviously not happen.

I see where you're coming from, but it isn't really a logical extension. The difference between live and online is quite pronounced (from things as small as fan meetings through to the legitimacy of the tournament) but I don't think that we really need delve into this too much. I think that probably is verging on arguing for the sake of arguing

although I'll happily illustrate why these are quite different and why the logic doesn't extend if you wish.

I think the rules probably will change and players based in other regions be allowed to play their games on their home server. At this point, as I initially wrote, what harm can it do to change it? Outside of conditions for the casters, I would say none. But I also think you're overstating the consequences of playing on the US server for the Koreans. The quality of the games will be decided by many other factors than the delay between KR and US.

Sure, I might be overstating things. But it is a factor and one that can cause unnecessary annoyance and comments in LR threads like 'Major only won because Hero was affected by lag' -- I hope we can agree that while this wouldn't make any sense in the context of the match, some people are stupid enough to post crap like this.

As a final note, I think it would suit you if your argument was made with a bit more humility. Whether or not you consider a change of the rules the natural outcome of the dispute, you're asking the tournament to accommodate the SK based players in a situation where these players are causing a huge headache for the organizers. And also, it would suit you to own up to your own interest in the situation and not simply hide behind the outragey: "think of the viewers!". Players prefer to play with low rather than high ping/delay. Obviously they would want to minimize that delay when possible. I imagine that includes the players on TL.

Sure, but honestly it doesn't matter who the players are as far as I'm concerned. It's just coincidence that Hero happens to be involved in [but not complaining about afaik] this series. I don't think this causes a huge headache outside of ensuring the appropriate maps are on the correct serves which really shouldn't be an issue.

But thanks for replying to my post in good spirit, I realize it was confrontational. But I think that the blame of the failing of WCS AM tend to fall solely on Blizzard, when the foreign teams with Korean players have plenty to bear. I think there's a lack of owning up to that responsibility. And I think your argument being made in the somewhat oblivious tone of "can't they see that it's the only right thing to do?" is reflective of that.

Actually engaging in a serious debate and critique about the entire WCS system deserves it's own thread and would be very difficult to debate properly because of the numerous failings/problems etc. My arguments in this have simply tried to remove as much of this as possible for the issue -- trying to make the best of a bad situation if you will as well as trying to clarify exactly what the issue(s) are with this. I don't mind if this policy isn't changed this season, but I hope it is addressed in a future season.

On May 01 2013 17:54 Ragnarork wrote:

Show nested quote +

The only valid reason I think.

Otherwise, nothing, just nothing can justify it. (And certainly not the "It's WCS America, it should be played on NA server" argument).

If a caster lags a KR-KR match, then how will two KR's on NA fare? I wager that they will lag on NA and since there are two potential laggers that any lag issues will be doubled.

oBlade

United States5628 Posts

May 01 2013 09:09 GMT

#373

On May 01 2013 18:04 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:

Show nested quote +

MLG Dallas wasn't an American qualifier for a global event, it was the global event itself hosted in Dallas, Texas.

Do you see now why it's different?

It says here WCS America is open to players from around the world with an offline portion hosted in NYC.

Sated

England4983 Posts

May 01 2013 09:09 GMT

#374

--- Nuked ---

MasterOfPuppets

Romania6942 Posts

May 01 2013 09:10 GMT

#375

On May 01 2013 18:05 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:

Show nested quote +

People do blame Blizzard but it's still reasonably that we would want to Koreans and Europeans to lose.

That's good. Cheer for your favourite players, cheer for goswser or Minigun or KiLLeR or your favourite player from the American continent or even all of them!

But at the same time, realize how fucking pathetic and petty it sounds to say "nyar serves them right to get screwed over for coming here and qualifying for a tournament that they had every single right to compete in, according to its rules". People need to stop acting like the players have any amount of blame in this ungodly fucking debacle, all they're doing is their job, playing the game that we are supposed to watch and enjoy, and not act like ungrateful asshats.

ALL of your complaints should be directed at Blizzard, maybe if our voices as a community are loud enough they'll stop rolling in their fat wads of WoW cash and start actually doing things right.

Dodgin

Canada39254 Posts

May 01 2013 09:11 GMT

#376

I have to wonder if the response would be the same if the match were Scarlett vs HuK while both of them were living in Korea? I'm convinced this is just people taking out their frustrations that WCS is not what they want it to be on this completely separate issue.

Godwrath

Spain10127 Posts

May 01 2013 09:12 GMT

#377

It should be played on NA server, it's WCS Americas, not WCS Korea.

On May 01 2013 18:11 Dodgin wrote:
I have to wonder if the response would be the same if the match were Scarlett vs HuK while both of them were living in Korea? I'm convinced this is just people taking out their frustrations that WCS is not what they want it to be on this completely separate issue.

I don't know, i kinda like Major, but you are right, my frustration might have to do something about my opinion here.

Dracid

United States280 Posts

May 01 2013 09:12 GMT

#378

On May 01 2013 18:05 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:

Show nested quote +

People do blame Blizzard but it's still reasonably that we would want to Koreans and Europeans to lose.

This decision does absolutely nothing to make Koreans and Europeans lose. Nobody in this thread is saying that NA vs KR should be played on anything other than the NA server. This applies to KR vs KR matches only.

Aeroplaneoverthesea

United Kingdom1977 Posts

May 01 2013 09:12 GMT

#379

On May 01 2013 18:09 oBlade wrote:

Show nested quote +

It says here WCS America is open to players from around the world with an offline portion hosted in NYC.

Sigh.

Aeroplaneoverthesea

United Kingdom1977 Posts

May 01 2013 09:15 GMT

#380

On May 01 2013 18:10 MasterOfPuppets wrote:

Show nested quote +

On May 01 2013 18:12 Dracid wrote:

Show nested quote +

Europeans and Koreans who don't live in America shouldn't be allowed to play in the first place, so anything which makes it more awkward/unpleasant for them to play in it is a good thing in my book.

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MajOr and HerO forced to play WCS Matches on NA? - Page 19

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