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It's not WCS NA ffs. I wish people would stop calling it that. It's WCS AM.
Major is one of the few, if not the only one, american player that got a good shot at qualifiying since he's putting in the hard work by spending months in korea, while other north americans didn't.
Yet, when I read what some (not all obviously) north americans write, in this thread, I get that feeling they consider north americans only for this WCS. Is it that that hard to accomodate one of the few american players that got a good shot at qualifying ?
And at the same time, all those threads complaining about sub-par local players not cutting it, how players should stay in america if they want to participate (despite training in america being really bad) and so forth and so forth... Erg. :r
If you want the american scene to growth you should encourage and accomodate the players willing to go train in Korea. Not try to limit them.
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United Kingdom14464 Posts
Wait, people actually think being inflexible and encouraging bad play is a good thing? o.O
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
pretty sure the inflexibility comes from blizzard, not mlg in particular
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I'm sorry, but don't play on WCS NA then.
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On May 01 2013 10:58 Archas wrote:
It's WCS NA, not "WCS NA, as played on KR". I see no problem with this.
This. 100%. There is no reason to believe otherwise.
I say good to MLG for enforcing the spirit of the tournament.
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On May 01 2013 16:48 zhurai wrote:
I'm sorry, but don't play on WCS NA then.
They don't play on WCS NA. Because WCS NA exists only in your head.
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On May 01 2013 16:48 Arachne wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2013 10:58 Archas wrote:
It's WCS NA, not "WCS NA, as played on KR". I see no problem with this. This. 100%. There is no reason to believe otherwise. I say good to MLG for enforcing the spirit of the tournament.
When both live in Korea, the spirit is pretty pointless here...
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Did Blizzard define what they wanted to achieve with WCS NA?
Because there is a world of difference. If WCS NA is started with the aim in mind of fostering a NA (nationality) majority scene, letting KR-KR play on the KR server would be an uncomfortable precedent. If let's say, KR players gradually take over the majority of WCS NA slots, and then all of them play the majority of their matches on the KR server, it would just be WCS KR2, albeit on a different time slot. This server discrimination serves to deter KR players who aren't immensely confident in their abilities to play at a ping disadvantage from playing in WCS NA. KR-KR matches will have sub-par quality, but since the aim was to foster a NA majority scene, this will not be a major concern. In the first place, KR-NA matches will already have an inherent sub-par quality to them due to ping imbalance.
If WCS NA was just meant to bring quality Starcraft to prime-time audience in the NA region regardless of players' nationality then it would be a sensible move for the KR-KR players to play on the KR server.
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On May 01 2013 16:03 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2013 15:54 sc2superfan101 wrote:On May 01 2013 15:36 Dodgin wrote:
This thread should just be locked until someone is willing to answer Plexa Okay:
"So please, someone who is supportive of this measure please explain to me how this is a GOOD decision, not merely an understandable one."For one, it is bad precedent to change the rules in the middle of a season, even if said rules could be said to be "bad" rules; even if the rules were unclear. We should not change rules mid-season without very compelling reasons, and I do not think that this instance satisfies the criteria of what I would consider to be compelling. Now, in a way, the question, or demand, of Plexa (and the others who made the same point) is a kind of trap. They don't want our (people who don't want the rule changed) reasons, obviously, because they've already been given our reasons and they weren't satisfied. What they want is to be convinced. But the problem is that what I may consider to be good reasons, they might not consider to be good reasons. What I see as a lack of good cause, they see as perfectly good cause. I can repeat that rules are rules and should not be bent for something like this until I am blue in the face (fingers), but if you don't agree that holding to the rules is important, or think that this warrants changing the rules, than you will obviously not find my reasons to be "GOOD". Simply following the rules blindly makes it acceptable (at least, I hope these rules were available to the players well in advance.) That doesn't mean that this is a rule that should be retained in future seasons. Show nested quote +As I said before: Blizzard has made it clear that developing the scene in regions outside of KR is a concern to them, and at least part of the purpose of the new WCS system. Without going into arguments about how they could have done it better, or whether they are doing it correctly, we can understand, to some degree, the regional-play rule. It is an incentive to play in the region to which you reside in. Obviously there are other ways this could be done. However, they did not choose those ways. Their statements make it clear that they will be instituting even more incentives and disincentives in the future. It makes a certain kind of sense to have rules already in place that begin the incentivizing (I know that's not a word, get over it) process immediately. Absolutely, but entirely irrelevant. This isn't a NA-KR issue or even an EU-KR issue, it only pertains to KR-KR matchups [and by extension, EU-EU]. In any matchup containing a NA based player there is not argument about what server it should be played on. So how is not being flexible in the rules to allow this series to be played on KR a disincentive for non-NA based players to participate in WCS America? It simply isn't. The over-riding disincentive for Korean based players to play America's WCS is the live portion of the competition - i.e. having to relocate to America to play these rounds. Ultimately, all I can see that you've written is that it's a rule thus it should be upheld. Which is all fine and dandy, but doesn't make it something worth supporting for future seasons. If these issues aren't brought up now then there's no incentive for MLG or Blizzard to re-examine these rules for next season.
On the one hand, the damage is already done.
The international teams with Korean players decided that their short term interests (for themselves and their players) were more important than the health of the US SC2 scene, and had/allowed their players (to) forego the tournament of their home region in order to participate in US WCS (while incurring significant costs doing so). But now the players are locked in for the year and the result will be a Korean domination of the tournament (and if yesterday is any guide, low viewer-numbers). What (more) harm can be done by allowing the Korean players to take advantage of the online nature of the first portion of the tournament and simply let players situated in SK play each other in the region most suitable?
On the other hand, the focus on the regionality of the tournament was emphasized from the beginning.
The players may not enjoy the extra layer of randomness that playing with lag adds, but it's part of the cost for getting the best of both worlds: The convenience and advantage of Korean practice and the "easy(er) money" of the WCS US tournament. The focus was never meant to be on the "best play possible", but rather was dual-headed: To make a great show while developing the respective scenes and fostering a more balanced level of play in the three regions. The mass influx of Korean players without commitment to the US scene has hampered the last part in the US. To change the rules would be a knee-fall to those players. And there is an element of slippery slope also: Why have the ro16 and ro8 to finals in the US at all? If it's a field of solely SK/Asian-based players, why bother flying out 16 players to play in a studio without audience (I'm assuming the MLG Arena approach)? I realize that this will not happen, but from the "rational" perspective of your initial argument, what does it matter where a tournament in a studio is held? As long as it's broadcast at the appropriate time for the American audience. Imagine the savings in travel costs.
You might say that keeping the games on the US server is petty, or at least inconsiderate. And I would agree somewhat. I'm not as big on rules as mr. superfan. But I also realize what a total botch of the US tournament the international teams with Korean players have made of WCS US. And to change the rules to accommodate those teams and players seem unnecessary and, one might add, humiliating.
A counter-point could be made: To have the nerve to ask for the changes in the rules to be made is extremely inconsiderate of the consequences of their actions from the players and teams involved. It seems very greedy. What you're saying is this: We want the WCS US to accommodate that our players are not situated in the US and that they will in fact only be in the US for the offline portion of the tournament.
Can you blame people when the response is "Hell fucking no!".
*Oh, where appropriate, substitute WCS US with AM.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On May 01 2013 16:54 fluidin wrote:
Did Blizzard define what they wanted to achieve with WCS NA?
Because there is a world of difference. If WCS NA is started with the aim in mind of fostering a NA (nationality) majority scene, letting KR-KR play on the KR server would be an uncomfortable precedent. If let's say, KR players gradually take over the majority of WCS NA slots, and then all of them play the majority of their matches on the KR server, it would just be WCS KR2, albeit on a different time slot. This server discrimination serves to deter KR players who aren't immensely confident in their abilities to play at a ping disadvantage from playing in WCS NA. KR-KR matches will have sub-par quality, but since the aim was to foster a NA majority scene, this will not be a major concern. In the first place, KR-NA matches will already have an inherent sub-par quality to them due to ping imbalance.
If WCS NA was just meant to bring quality Starcraft to prime-time audience in the NA region regardless of players' nationality then it would be a sensible move for the KR-KR players to play on the KR server. Keep in mind that WCS America (not NA) would still demand that players move to the USA for the offline rounds.
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ESL>MLG ... never thought I'd think that ...
I had so bad opinion of ESL because of ESL France, but to be honest ESL is great x)
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I think alot of people in this post really doesnt understand what has been written. Oh its WCS AM, they have to play on NA server, even if BOTH, again BOTH players currently live in Korea. BOTH PLAYERS
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On May 01 2013 17:00 Chanted wrote:
I think alot of people in this post really doesnt understand what has been written. Oh its WCS AM, they have to play on NA server, even if BOTH, again BOTH players currently live in Korea. BOTH PLAYERS
Major and HerO both knew the rules when they signed up so tough shit. If you want to play WCS AM you are gonna play on the NA server i don't understand what is unclear about that.
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On May 01 2013 17:00 Chanted wrote:
I think alot of people in this post really doesnt understand what has been written. Oh its WCS AM, they have to play on NA server, even if BOTH, again BOTH players currently live in Korea. BOTH PLAYERS
The sad thing is that they understand it just fine, IMO.
They are afraid that WCS AM will end up being two koreans playing each other on the KR server. It would hurt their national feeling. And in the process, they are willing to screw Major.
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eh.... its simple guys, they will apologise later and things gona goes back to normal. Sundance gona tell DJWheat and Slasher that he "gets it" and we all call him good guy.
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On May 01 2013 17:03 Dundron2000 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2013 17:00 Chanted wrote:
I think alot of people in this post really doesnt understand what has been written. Oh its WCS AM, they have to play on NA server, even if BOTH, again BOTH players currently live in Korea. BOTH PLAYERS Major and HerO both knew the rules when they signed up so tough shit. If you want to play WCS AM you are gonna play on the NA server i don't understand what is unclear about that.
Well, that's the point : They didn't.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On May 01 2013 16:55 m0ck wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2013 16:03 Plexa wrote:On May 01 2013 15:54 sc2superfan101 wrote:On May 01 2013 15:36 Dodgin wrote:
This thread should just be locked until someone is willing to answer Plexa Okay:
"So please, someone who is supportive of this measure please explain to me how this is a GOOD decision, not merely an understandable one."For one, it is bad precedent to change the rules in the middle of a season, even if said rules could be said to be "bad" rules; even if the rules were unclear. We should not change rules mid-season without very compelling reasons, and I do not think that this instance satisfies the criteria of what I would consider to be compelling. Now, in a way, the question, or demand, of Plexa (and the others who made the same point) is a kind of trap. They don't want our (people who don't want the rule changed) reasons, obviously, because they've already been given our reasons and they weren't satisfied. What they want is to be convinced. But the problem is that what I may consider to be good reasons, they might not consider to be good reasons. What I see as a lack of good cause, they see as perfectly good cause. I can repeat that rules are rules and should not be bent for something like this until I am blue in the face (fingers), but if you don't agree that holding to the rules is important, or think that this warrants changing the rules, than you will obviously not find my reasons to be "GOOD". Simply following the rules blindly makes it acceptable (at least, I hope these rules were available to the players well in advance.) That doesn't mean that this is a rule that should be retained in future seasons. As I said before: Blizzard has made it clear that developing the scene in regions outside of KR is a concern to them, and at least part of the purpose of the new WCS system. Without going into arguments about how they could have done it better, or whether they are doing it correctly, we can understand, to some degree, the regional-play rule. It is an incentive to play in the region to which you reside in. Obviously there are other ways this could be done. However, they did not choose those ways. Their statements make it clear that they will be instituting even more incentives and disincentives in the future. It makes a certain kind of sense to have rules already in place that begin the incentivizing (I know that's not a word, get over it) process immediately. Absolutely, but entirely irrelevant. This isn't a NA-KR issue or even an EU-KR issue, it only pertains to KR-KR matchups [and by extension, EU-EU]. In any matchup containing a NA based player there is not argument about what server it should be played on. So how is not being flexible in the rules to allow this series to be played on KR a disincentive for non-NA based players to participate in WCS America? It simply isn't. The over-riding disincentive for Korean based players to play America's WCS is the live portion of the competition - i.e. having to relocate to America to play these rounds. Ultimately, all I can see that you've written is that it's a rule thus it should be upheld. Which is all fine and dandy, but doesn't make it something worth supporting for future seasons. If these issues aren't brought up now then there's no incentive for MLG or Blizzard to re-examine these rules for next season. On the one hand, the damage is already done. The international teams with Korean players decided that their short term interests (for themselves and their players) were more important than the health of the US SC2 scene, and had/allowed their players (to) forego the tournament of their home region in order to participate in US WCS (while incurring significant costs doing so). But now the players are locked in for the year and the result will be a Korean domination of the tournament (and if yesterday is any guide, low viewer-numbers). What (more) harm can be done by allowing the Korean players to take advantage of the online nature of the first portion of the tournament and simply let players situated in SK play each other in the region most suitable? There's absolutely no harm to the Korean players as a result of forcing a KR-KR match to be played on NA (assuming the lag is stable from both houses, which sometimes can be an issues). The people who end up hurting the most in this are the viewers who get to watch a pretty average game instead of a really good game. Once again, we're not talking about forcing NA players to play on the Korean server - only making it acceptable for KR-KR matches to be played there.
The health of the US SC2 scene is a moot point in this issue.
On the other hand, the focus on the regionality of the tournament was emphasized from the beginning.
The players may not enjoy the extra layer of randomness that playing with lag adds, but it's part of the cost for getting the best of both worlds: The convenience and advantage of Korean practice and the "easy(er) money" of the WCS US tournament. The focus was never meant to be on the "best play possible", but rather was dual-headed: To make a great show while developing the respective scenes and fostering a more balanced level of play in the three regions. The mass influx of Korean players without commitment to the US scene has hampered the last part in the US. To change the rules would be a knee-fall to those players. Blizzard's goals here are irrelevant to this debate. There are faults with their system, but they just aren't relevant to this situation and belong in another debate.
And there is an element of slippery slope also: Why have the ro16 and ro8 to finals in the US at all? If it's a field of solely SK/Asian-based players, why bother flying out 16 players to play in a studio without audience (I'm assuming the MLG Arena approach)? I realize that this will not happen, but from the "rational" perspective of your initial argument, what does it matter where a tournament in a studio is held? As long as it's broadcast at the appropriate time for the American audience. Imagine the savings in travel costs. Actually, the 'flying out' is done at the expense of teams (costs are only covered when the players reside in the Americas). The region where the live event is held is important because that was aimed to be the deterrent for players from other regions to participate in WCS America -- obviously in practice it just prevented players without backing in participating. The goal (basically) was to replicate the GSL outside of Korea, and the live portion is a part of that. That is why the studio does matter.
You're really stretching things, though, to say that letting KR-KR matches be played on KR will lead to WCS America being played entirely in Korea. As I've tried to reiterate many times - NA-KR matches (and any match involving a NA player) is still played on the NA server. Nothing changes there.
You might say that keeping the games on the US server is petty, or at least inconsiderate. And I would agree somewhat. I'm not as big on rules as mr. superfan. But I also realize what a total botch of the US tournament the international teams with Korean players have made of WCS US. And to change the rules to accommodate those teams and players seem unnecessary and, one might add, humiliating. Sure, again I can appreciate why they are upholding the rule. Just that I don't think it's a particularly good rule and one that should be change (and that no sane person should be championing this rule as a great thing).
A counter-point could be made: To have the nerve to ask for the changes in the rules to be made is extremely inconsiderate of the consequences of their actions from the players and teams involved. It seems very greedy. What you're saying is this: We want the WCS US to accommodate that our players in the are not situated in the US and that they will in fact only be in the US for the offline portion of the tournament.
Can you blame people when the response is "Hell fucking no!".
*Oh, where appropriate, substitute WCS US with AM. Again, this is people misunderstanding the issue as a NA-KR issue, rather than KR-KR only.
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well if the casters are in america, they stream from america etc, i dont know how helpful it would even be to play on korean servers, wouldnt the caster then cause the lag?
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If you disliked that koreans could sign up for WCS AM, then your beef is with Blizzard or whoever made that decision. Dislike ahead, I won't stop you. But that's a completely different discussion.
Given that Blizzard have made that specific decision, MLG are making a different decision not to allow flexibility with servers. Not allowing major and hero play on KR only devalues the competetion, nothing else. Thinking it's fair that they shouldn't be allowed only comes across as petty or racist.
Koreans will play (and one will probably win) WCS AM, there's nothing to stop that now. Let's make the best out of a shitty situation.
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Lol people playing WCS America from Asia and still complaing? They shouldnt be allowed to play that way in the first place.
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EPT
