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Austria24422 Posts
On April 24 2013 17:25 Terrasmith wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2013 17:23 DarkLordOlli wrote:On April 24 2013 17:23 Terrasmith wrote:On April 24 2013 17:19 convention wrote:On April 24 2013 17:14 Terrasmith wrote:On April 24 2013 17:12 ZenithM wrote:On April 24 2013 17:10 Terrasmith wrote:On April 24 2013 17:06 CoR wrote:
also to all the "oracle already sooo strong" flamers here, on high level and that means even mid masters, they get nearly useless ... Until your opponent reacts two seconds too slowly and loses. Lol, 2 seconds is a very long time. At high level that means about 5-10 actions :D Yet I've seen pros lose games (most notably MC) because they reacted to an oracle too slowly. I've seen a lot more pros lose because they reacted faster than that to battle hellion drops. I've also seen a lot of pros (again more than oracles) lose also being faster than that to widow mine drops. You also lose if you react about that speed to baneling drops and mutalisks... Should I change the number I used to 1 second? Or a 1/2 second? I threw out 2 as an arbitrary number; I don't watch pro games with a stopwatch to time these things. The point I was making is that oracles are not as useless as the person I responded to made them out to be. They aren't useless but they're too expensive for their usefulness past the early game. Static defense, units, etc. shut them down hard. I could say the exact same thing about terran drops. Static defense and/or a few units in the right place shuts them down hard, too.
Except not really. Hellbat drops still kill a mineral line.
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On April 24 2013 17:17 Sissors wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2013 17:04 CoR wrote:On April 24 2013 17:03 Terrasmith wrote:
Blizzard might not be nerfing the hellbat because they don't mesh well with bio armies. The 4 medivac slots and the no stim means they make the whole army less mobile, and the strongest feature of bio is its mobility. Seeing as mech is never used, the hellbat is kinda stuck, and you don't see it all that often in pro games, except for against mass zealot and in tvt with a meching player. While hellbat drops are still strong, they aren't all that hard to counter with good static defense and a few roaches/mutas/stalkers/marines and marauders. Also, hellbats are easy to kite. still every TERRAN flames about hellbats because tvt is hellbat vs hellbat  I am Terran (masters, since that apparently is important otherwise your opinion is invalid according to quite some people here), and I don't flame about hellbats. I barely ever use them in TvT since they are way overrated imo. Also hellbat drops are quite easy to deflect (as terran at least) and contrary to what someone else claimed, having to pull some workers while your opponent loses his medivac + 2 hellbats is not a win for your opponent. Normally I play bio-mech, but bit ago I tried mech. Actually won also, and guess what, I kept my hellbats 90% of the time in hellion mode since the extra mobility was imo generally preferable over the extra combat power of hellbats. Also a bit ago for example I had 5 marauders. The enemy had 20 hellbats. I literally kited him across the entire map and only lost them in the end because he kept picking them up in medivacs to boost them on top of my marauders, which meant I had to stim them and I didn't have a medivac there. So they pretty much only died because I ran out of stims. Of course I lost games to people playing hellbat-tank. Just like I lost games against pretty much every composition. And I won't deny in the beginning I also was "Omg OP, nerf plz". But then I just considered what to do about them, and realized they have shitty range and are horribly slow.
dont know about your math but 300/100 is equal to not mining 25 sec, plus you have to build static/units that cost something and since medivac is much faster than worker you will always lose 3-4 worker which is another 200 min. so yeah...it IS basically impossible to not be at least even if you fuck up the drop. thats bad design.
and you say it yourself...hellbats are balanced because they are strong and cheap but also very slow. thats the problem right now with hellbat drops. medivacs are literally one of the fastest units in the whole game and make it so that the main disadvantage of hellbats is completely gone...their speed.
so they dont need to nerf the hellbat itself. they need to nerf hellbats drops. marinedrops are 500/100 and you dont instant kill 3-4 worker no matter how perfect your opponent defends (and dont say you wont lose worker then every GSL Z or T loses worker vs hellbat drops). i dont know exactly how they should do it. maybe make hellbats not be able to drop in hellbat mode but only in helion mode or whatever.
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On April 24 2013 17:03 Terrasmith wrote:
Blizzard might not be nerfing the hellbat because they don't mesh well with bio armies. The 4 medivac slots and the no stim means they make the whole army less mobile, and the strongest feature of bio is its mobility. Seeing as mech is never used, the hellbat is kinda stuck, and you don't see it all that often in pro games, except for against mass zealot and in tvt with a meching player. While hellbat drops are still strong, they aren't all that hard to counter with good static defense and a few roaches/mutas/stalkers/marines and marauders. Also, hellbats are easy to kite.
That doesnt matter, even the lost mining time and the static defense you have to put up is worth MORE than completly shutting down the hellbats+medivac.
You also need a lot more attention and action to defend a hellbat drop than to execute it.
Also you will see a lot more hellbats mixed in with bio in the future. The unit is flat out ridicolous.
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Austria24422 Posts
On April 24 2013 17:25 Sissors wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2013 17:23 DarkLordOlli wrote:On April 24 2013 17:23 Terrasmith wrote:On April 24 2013 17:19 convention wrote:On April 24 2013 17:14 Terrasmith wrote:On April 24 2013 17:12 ZenithM wrote:On April 24 2013 17:10 Terrasmith wrote:On April 24 2013 17:06 CoR wrote:
also to all the "oracle already sooo strong" flamers here, on high level and that means even mid masters, they get nearly useless ... Until your opponent reacts two seconds too slowly and loses. Lol, 2 seconds is a very long time. At high level that means about 5-10 actions :D Yet I've seen pros lose games (most notably MC) because they reacted to an oracle too slowly. I've seen a lot more pros lose because they reacted faster than that to battle hellion drops. I've also seen a lot of pros (again more than oracles) lose also being faster than that to widow mine drops. You also lose if you react about that speed to baneling drops and mutalisks... Should I change the number I used to 1 second? Or a 1/2 second? I threw out 2 as an arbitrary number; I don't watch pro games with a stopwatch to time these things. The point I was making is that oracles are not as useless as the person I responded to made them out to be. They aren't useless but they're too expensive for their usefulness past the early game. And making them cheaper mainly helps them in the early game. That is the entire problem of oracles, it isn't that they can't use some changes, but that you need to do it without making them stronger as gimmick cheese unit.
Exactly. A speed buff won't really change the early game that much imo since oracle cheese relies on being unscouted. However it will make the oracle useful even when a single turret or a few units are in place if you control it well.
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On April 24 2013 17:17 Sissors wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2013 17:04 CoR wrote:On April 24 2013 17:03 Terrasmith wrote:
Blizzard might not be nerfing the hellbat because they don't mesh well with bio armies. The 4 medivac slots and the no stim means they make the whole army less mobile, and the strongest feature of bio is its mobility. Seeing as mech is never used, the hellbat is kinda stuck, and you don't see it all that often in pro games, except for against mass zealot and in tvt with a meching player. While hellbat drops are still strong, they aren't all that hard to counter with good static defense and a few roaches/mutas/stalkers/marines and marauders. Also, hellbats are easy to kite. still every TERRAN flames about hellbats because tvt is hellbat vs hellbat I am Terran (masters, since that apparently is important otherwise your opinion is invalid according to quite some people here), and I don't flame about hellbats. I barely ever use them in TvT since they are way overrated imo. Also hellbat drops are quite easy to deflect (as terran at least) and contrary to what someone else claimed, having to pull some workers while your opponent loses his medivac + 2 hellbats is not a win for your opponent. Normally I play bio-mech, but bit ago I tried mech. Actually won also, and guess what, I kept my hellbats 90% of the time in hellion mode since the extra mobility was imo generally preferable over the extra combat power of hellbats. Also a bit ago for example I had 5 marauders. The enemy had 20 hellbats. I literally kited him across the entire map and only lost them in the end because he kept picking them up in medivacs to boost them on top of my marauders, which meant I had to stim them and I didn't have a medivac there. So they pretty much only died because I ran out of stims. Of course I lost games to people playing hellbat-tank. Just like I lost games against pretty much every composition. And I won't deny in the beginning I also was "Omg OP, nerf plz". But then I just considered what to do about them, and realized they have shitty range and are horribly slow.
yeah, I don't know where those hellbat complaints are coming from. It's like I get hellbat dropped like once or twice in a game and it's not thaaaat hard to deal with them.
If there is a problem with TvT right now, it is that mines and free siege mode make it incredibly hard to ever go for a killing blow and all my games seem to go to Battlecruisers. Might just be my "get further ahead" approach to SC2, but I think a lot of progames also reflect that.
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On April 24 2013 17:10 Terrasmith wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2013 17:06 CoR wrote:
also to all the "oracle already sooo strong" flamers here, on high level and that means even mid masters, they get nearly useless ... Until your opponent reacts two seconds too slowly and loses.
By that argument you should hate widow mine drops more. They are less intensive as an investment and is not as risky. Trust me, we keep playing against oracles and speedvacs we'll become so much stronger. I can't help but eye the minimap almost all game now.
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On April 24 2013 17:25 Terrasmith wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2013 17:23 DarkLordOlli wrote:On April 24 2013 17:23 Terrasmith wrote:On April 24 2013 17:19 convention wrote:On April 24 2013 17:14 Terrasmith wrote:On April 24 2013 17:12 ZenithM wrote:On April 24 2013 17:10 Terrasmith wrote:On April 24 2013 17:06 CoR wrote:
also to all the "oracle already sooo strong" flamers here, on high level and that means even mid masters, they get nearly useless ... Until your opponent reacts two seconds too slowly and loses. Lol, 2 seconds is a very long time. At high level that means about 5-10 actions :D Yet I've seen pros lose games (most notably MC) because they reacted to an oracle too slowly. I've seen a lot more pros lose because they reacted faster than that to battle hellion drops. I've also seen a lot of pros (again more than oracles) lose also being faster than that to widow mine drops. You also lose if you react about that speed to baneling drops and mutalisks... Should I change the number I used to 1 second? Or a 1/2 second? I threw out 2 as an arbitrary number; I don't watch pro games with a stopwatch to time these things. The point I was making is that oracles are not as useless as the person I responded to made them out to be. They aren't useless but they're too expensive for their usefulness past the early game. Static defense, units, etc. shut them down hard. I could say the exact same thing about terran drops. Static defense and/or a few units in the right place shuts them down hard, too.
Well 1 turret pretty much renders oracle useless since the kills it gets are not worth the investment, in PvT one cannon can't stop drops, ever. Even if toss has static defense and some units you just boost past the units/defense and drop a little further away, or just back off. Sometimes terran even fake a double drop to split toss army then boost the medivacs back to their main army and start attacking when toss is split up. The threats medivacs pose even with good positioning and some static defense is far greater then the threat oracle poses vs 1 turret in the terran mineral line
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dont know about your math but 300/100 is equal to not mining 25 sec, plus you have to build static/units that cost something and since medivac is much faster than worker you will always lose 3-4 worker which is another 200 min. so yeah...it IS basically impossible to not be at least even if you fuck up the drop. thats bad design.
Yeah if your workers are idle for 25 seconds you are doing something wrong. But then just make sure you kill the medivac before it arrives in your mineral line. Only in the early game that won't be possible, but then you also got the tech cost added + a significantly weaker main army of the agressor.
On April 24 2013 17:31 DarkLordOlli wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2013 17:25 Sissors wrote:On April 24 2013 17:23 DarkLordOlli wrote:On April 24 2013 17:23 Terrasmith wrote:On April 24 2013 17:19 convention wrote:On April 24 2013 17:14 Terrasmith wrote:On April 24 2013 17:12 ZenithM wrote:On April 24 2013 17:10 Terrasmith wrote:On April 24 2013 17:06 CoR wrote:
also to all the "oracle already sooo strong" flamers here, on high level and that means even mid masters, they get nearly useless ... Until your opponent reacts two seconds too slowly and loses. Lol, 2 seconds is a very long time. At high level that means about 5-10 actions :D Yet I've seen pros lose games (most notably MC) because they reacted to an oracle too slowly. I've seen a lot more pros lose because they reacted faster than that to battle hellion drops. I've also seen a lot of pros (again more than oracles) lose also being faster than that to widow mine drops. You also lose if you react about that speed to baneling drops and mutalisks... Should I change the number I used to 1 second? Or a 1/2 second? I threw out 2 as an arbitrary number; I don't watch pro games with a stopwatch to time these things. The point I was making is that oracles are not as useless as the person I responded to made them out to be. They aren't useless but they're too expensive for their usefulness past the early game. And making them cheaper mainly helps them in the early game. That is the entire problem of oracles, it isn't that they can't use some changes, but that you need to do it without making them stronger as gimmick cheese unit. Exactly. A speed buff won't really change the early game that much imo since oracle cheese relies on being unscouted. However it will make the oracle useful even when a single turret or a few units are in place if you control it well.
And there we disagree, I don't think it will make the oracle more useful later in the game, I do think it will make the cheese better (arrives a bit faster, easier to kill small groups of defenders).
Later in the game due to the deadlyness of oracles you always make every base 100% oracle proof when you know they are a threat. They are just too deadly to not do that.
You also need a lot more attention and action to defend a hellbat drop than to execute it.
Okay, lets nerf storm into the ground. Since also that takes alot more attention to defend than to execute. Pretty much every offensive ability has that little issue. Hell even nukes take more attention to defend than execute.
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I think the reason the Oracle isn't seeing more use is that the opportunity cost is too big, because it uses up all the gas and at least in PvT it's a more or less dead tech path.
I do feel that protoss is to reliant on not being scouted to win matches, quite unlike terran which still win matches, even if you know their drops are coming. They can instead rely on skil, dropping in so many places that the defender is overwhelmed. I think protoss should go in that direction.
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On April 24 2013 17:37 Sissors wrote:Show nested quote +
dont know about your math but 300/100 is equal to not mining 25 sec, plus you have to build static/units that cost something and since medivac is much faster than worker you will always lose 3-4 worker which is another 200 min. so yeah...it IS basically impossible to not be at least even if you fuck up the drop. thats bad design.
Yeah if your workers are idle for 25 seconds you are doing something wrong. But then just make sure you kill the medivac before it arrives in your mineral line. Only in the early game that won't be possible, but then you also got the tech cost added + a significantly weaker main army of the agressor. Show nested quote +On April 24 2013 17:31 DarkLordOlli wrote:On April 24 2013 17:25 Sissors wrote:On April 24 2013 17:23 DarkLordOlli wrote:On April 24 2013 17:23 Terrasmith wrote:On April 24 2013 17:19 convention wrote:On April 24 2013 17:14 Terrasmith wrote:On April 24 2013 17:12 ZenithM wrote:On April 24 2013 17:10 Terrasmith wrote:On April 24 2013 17:06 CoR wrote:
also to all the "oracle already sooo strong" flamers here, on high level and that means even mid masters, they get nearly useless ... Until your opponent reacts two seconds too slowly and loses. Lol, 2 seconds is a very long time. At high level that means about 5-10 actions :D Yet I've seen pros lose games (most notably MC) because they reacted to an oracle too slowly. I've seen a lot more pros lose because they reacted faster than that to battle hellion drops. I've also seen a lot of pros (again more than oracles) lose also being faster than that to widow mine drops. You also lose if you react about that speed to baneling drops and mutalisks... Should I change the number I used to 1 second? Or a 1/2 second? I threw out 2 as an arbitrary number; I don't watch pro games with a stopwatch to time these things. The point I was making is that oracles are not as useless as the person I responded to made them out to be. They aren't useless but they're too expensive for their usefulness past the early game. And making them cheaper mainly helps them in the early game. That is the entire problem of oracles, it isn't that they can't use some changes, but that you need to do it without making them stronger as gimmick cheese unit. Exactly. A speed buff won't really change the early game that much imo since oracle cheese relies on being unscouted. However it will make the oracle useful even when a single turret or a few units are in place if you control it well. And there we disagree, I don't think it will make the oracle more useful later in the game, I do think it will make the cheese better (arrives a bit faster, easier to kill small groups of defenders). Later in the game due to the deadlyness of oracles you always make every base 100% oracle proof when you know they are a threat. They are just too deadly to not do that. Show nested quote +You also need a lot more attention and action to defend a hellbat drop than to execute it. Okay, lets nerf storm into the ground. Since also that takes alot more attention to defend than to execute. Pretty much every offensive ability has that little issue. Hell even nukes take more attention to defend than execute.
okay next time i will tell my queen to just oneshot the medivac. stupid queen always needs so many shots right now...she really needs to work on oneshotting. and my idle worker...guess i better transfer them to my saturated natural so i gain 50 extra minerals and also T just loads up hellbats, drops natural and possibly does even more damage.
its pretty obv. you dont really thought about how insanely cheap hellbat drops are and that you always will be at least even...if your opponent plays absolutely PERFECT. in any other case (which is 99% of the time) you will be ahead by doing a hellbat drop. dont think pros do hellbat drops just for fun...they do it because they are insanely cost efficient.
btw i like that they want to make oracles more viable. though i think oracles need to do less damage but also more hp so they can do some damage even if there is static defense but also not get a free win if your opponent is too late on static. its too much of an all or nothing unit right now.
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On April 24 2013 17:37 Sissors wrote:
Yeah if your workers are idle for 25 seconds you are doing something wrong. But then just make sure you kill the medivac before it arrives in your mineral line. Only in the early game that won't be possible, but then you also got the tech cost added + a significantly weaker main army of the agressor.
1) How would you expect to do that as Medivac drop will always come faster than mutas? Queens will take way too long to kill medi before damage is already done , and single spore + crawler won't really stop it either as medivac will simply boost past it.
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On April 24 2013 17:43 Decendos wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2013 17:37 Sissors wrote:
dont know about your math but 300/100 is equal to not mining 25 sec, plus you have to build static/units that cost something and since medivac is much faster than worker you will always lose 3-4 worker which is another 200 min. so yeah...it IS basically impossible to not be at least even if you fuck up the drop. thats bad design.
Yeah if your workers are idle for 25 seconds you are doing something wrong. But then just make sure you kill the medivac before it arrives in your mineral line. Only in the early game that won't be possible, but then you also got the tech cost added + a significantly weaker main army of the agressor. On April 24 2013 17:31 DarkLordOlli wrote:On April 24 2013 17:25 Sissors wrote:On April 24 2013 17:23 DarkLordOlli wrote:On April 24 2013 17:23 Terrasmith wrote:On April 24 2013 17:19 convention wrote:On April 24 2013 17:14 Terrasmith wrote:On April 24 2013 17:12 ZenithM wrote:On April 24 2013 17:10 Terrasmith wrote:
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Until your opponent reacts two seconds too slowly and loses.
Lol, 2 seconds is a very long time. At high level that means about 5-10 actions :D Yet I've seen pros lose games (most notably MC) because they reacted to an oracle too slowly. I've seen a lot more pros lose because they reacted faster than that to battle hellion drops. I've also seen a lot of pros (again more than oracles) lose also being faster than that to widow mine drops. You also lose if you react about that speed to baneling drops and mutalisks... Should I change the number I used to 1 second? Or a 1/2 second? I threw out 2 as an arbitrary number; I don't watch pro games with a stopwatch to time these things. The point I was making is that oracles are not as useless as the person I responded to made them out to be. They aren't useless but they're too expensive for their usefulness past the early game. And making them cheaper mainly helps them in the early game. That is the entire problem of oracles, it isn't that they can't use some changes, but that you need to do it without making them stronger as gimmick cheese unit. Exactly. A speed buff won't really change the early game that much imo since oracle cheese relies on being unscouted. However it will make the oracle useful even when a single turret or a few units are in place if you control it well. And there we disagree, I don't think it will make the oracle more useful later in the game, I do think it will make the cheese better (arrives a bit faster, easier to kill small groups of defenders). Later in the game due to the deadlyness of oracles you always make every base 100% oracle proof when you know they are a threat. They are just too deadly to not do that. You also need a lot more attention and action to defend a hellbat drop than to execute it. Okay, lets nerf storm into the ground. Since also that takes alot more attention to defend than to execute. Pretty much every offensive ability has that little issue. Hell even nukes take more attention to defend than execute. okay next time i will tell my queen to just oneshot the medivac. stupid queen always needs so many shots right now...she really needs to work on oneshotting. and my idle worker...guess i better transfer them to my saturated natural so i gain 50 extra minerals and also T just loads up hellbats, drops natural and possibly does even more damage.
If you only got 1 queen we are talking about really early game and then you have to add the tech cost of those hellbat drops. And even then you played way too greedy with only a queen for defense. Later in the game just a hellbat drop shouldn't do damage. Only when it becomes multiple drops, or dropping during a fight should still be dangerous.
But if it takes you 25 seconds before your workers can mine again you should have made a bit more units and played less greedy.
1) How would you expect to do that as Medivac drop will always come faster than mutas? Queens will take way too long to kill medi before damage is already done , and single spore + crawler won't really stop it either as medivac will simply boost past it.
Dude, seriously, read the post you quoted yourself. Especially the sentence after the bolded one...
And if that spore is in your mineral line it can happily boost past it, but then it can't support the hellbats and they should die quickly.
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On April 24 2013 17:37 Sissors wrote:[ Show nested quote +You also need a lot more attention and action to defend a hellbat drop than to execute it. Okay, lets nerf storm into the ground. Since also that takes alot more attention to defend than to execute. Pretty much every offensive ability has that little issue. Hell even nukes take more attention to defend than execute.
It is NOT JUST THAT. It is the addition of all of this. It is the extreme costeffectiveness, the possible gamgechangeing impact with little risk and easy execution. It has no downside, it has just a lot of big and little benefits.
On April 24 2013 17:52 Sissors wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2013 17:43 Decendos wrote:On April 24 2013 17:37 Sissors wrote:
dont know about your math but 300/100 is equal to not mining 25 sec, plus you have to build static/units that cost something and since medivac is much faster than worker you will always lose 3-4 worker which is another 200 min. so yeah...it IS basically impossible to not be at least even if you fuck up the drop. thats bad design.
Yeah if your workers are idle for 25 seconds you are doing something wrong. But then just make sure you kill the medivac before it arrives in your mineral line. Only in the early game that won't be possible, but then you also got the tech cost added + a significantly weaker main army of the agressor. On April 24 2013 17:31 DarkLordOlli wrote:On April 24 2013 17:25 Sissors wrote:On April 24 2013 17:23 DarkLordOlli wrote:On April 24 2013 17:23 Terrasmith wrote:On April 24 2013 17:19 convention wrote:On April 24 2013 17:14 Terrasmith wrote:On April 24 2013 17:12 ZenithM wrote:
[quote]
Lol, 2 seconds is a very long time. At high level that means about 5-10 actions :D Yet I've seen pros lose games (most notably MC) because they reacted to an oracle too slowly. I've seen a lot more pros lose because they reacted faster than that to battle hellion drops. I've also seen a lot of pros (again more than oracles) lose also being faster than that to widow mine drops. You also lose if you react about that speed to baneling drops and mutalisks... Should I change the number I used to 1 second? Or a 1/2 second? I threw out 2 as an arbitrary number; I don't watch pro games with a stopwatch to time these things. The point I was making is that oracles are not as useless as the person I responded to made them out to be. They aren't useless but they're too expensive for their usefulness past the early game. And making them cheaper mainly helps them in the early game. That is the entire problem of oracles, it isn't that they can't use some changes, but that you need to do it without making them stronger as gimmick cheese unit. Exactly. A speed buff won't really change the early game that much imo since oracle cheese relies on being unscouted. However it will make the oracle useful even when a single turret or a few units are in place if you control it well. And there we disagree, I don't think it will make the oracle more useful later in the game, I do think it will make the cheese better (arrives a bit faster, easier to kill small groups of defenders). Later in the game due to the deadlyness of oracles you always make every base 100% oracle proof when you know they are a threat. They are just too deadly to not do that. You also need a lot more attention and action to defend a hellbat drop than to execute it. Okay, lets nerf storm into the ground. Since also that takes alot more attention to defend than to execute. Pretty much every offensive ability has that little issue. Hell even nukes take more attention to defend than execute. okay next time i will tell my queen to just oneshot the medivac. stupid queen always needs so many shots right now...she really needs to work on oneshotting. and my idle worker...guess i better transfer them to my saturated natural so i gain 50 extra minerals and also T just loads up hellbats, drops natural and possibly does even more damage. If you only got 1 queen we are talking about really early game and then you have to add the tech cost of those hellbat drops. And even then you played way too greedy with only a queen for defense. Later in the game just a hellbat drop shouldn't do damage. Only when it becomes multiple drops, or dropping during a fight should still be dangerous. But if it takes you 25 seconds before your workers can mine again you should have made a bit more units and played less greedy. Show nested quote +1) How would you expect to do that as Medivac drop will always come faster than mutas? Queens will take way too long to kill medi before damage is already done , and single spore + crawler won't really stop it either as medivac will simply boost past it. Dude, seriously, read the post you quoted yourself. Especially the sentence after the bolded one... And if that spore is in your mineral line it can happily boost past it, but then it can't support the hellbats and they should die quickly.
What tech costs are you talking about? The terran will ALWAYS go fax and starport. It is not like is teching to battelcruisers rofl.
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Game has been out for a month and people say "quite long"?
You realize that hearthstone, the april fools joke, takes a lot of resources?
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On April 24 2013 17:52 Sokrates wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2013 17:37 Sissors wrote:[ You also need a lot more attention and action to defend a hellbat drop than to execute it. Okay, lets nerf storm into the ground. Since also that takes alot more attention to defend than to execute. Pretty much every offensive ability has that little issue. Hell even nukes take more attention to defend than execute. It is NOT JUST THAT. It is the addition of all of this. It is the extreme costeffectiveness, the possible gamgechangeing impact with little risk and easy execution. It has no downside, it has just a lot of big and little benefits.
Funny, baneling drops sound pretty similar. As do proxy zealot warp ins. As do half a dozen other things.
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On April 24 2013 17:52 Sokrates wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2013 17:37 Sissors wrote:[ You also need a lot more attention and action to defend a hellbat drop than to execute it. Okay, lets nerf storm into the ground. Since also that takes alot more attention to defend than to execute. Pretty much every offensive ability has that little issue. Hell even nukes take more attention to defend than execute. It is NOT JUST THAT. It is the addition of all of this. It is the extreme costeffectiveness, the possible gamgechangeing impact with little risk and easy execution. It has no downside, it has just a lot of big and little benefits.
So why mention something that is true for pretty much everything?
Btw I don't think there is that much difference in attention required for defender and attacker. The defender has to pull workers if he doesn't kill the medivac in time, the attacker cant just shift click to unload in mineral line.
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On April 24 2013 17:52 Sissors wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2013 17:43 Decendos wrote:On April 24 2013 17:37 Sissors wrote:
dont know about your math but 300/100 is equal to not mining 25 sec, plus you have to build static/units that cost something and since medivac is much faster than worker you will always lose 3-4 worker which is another 200 min. so yeah...it IS basically impossible to not be at least even if you fuck up the drop. thats bad design.
Yeah if your workers are idle for 25 seconds you are doing something wrong. But then just make sure you kill the medivac before it arrives in your mineral line. Only in the early game that won't be possible, but then you also got the tech cost added + a significantly weaker main army of the agressor. On April 24 2013 17:31 DarkLordOlli wrote:On April 24 2013 17:25 Sissors wrote:On April 24 2013 17:23 DarkLordOlli wrote:On April 24 2013 17:23 Terrasmith wrote:On April 24 2013 17:19 convention wrote:On April 24 2013 17:14 Terrasmith wrote:On April 24 2013 17:12 ZenithM wrote:
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Lol, 2 seconds is a very long time. At high level that means about 5-10 actions :D Yet I've seen pros lose games (most notably MC) because they reacted to an oracle too slowly. I've seen a lot more pros lose because they reacted faster than that to battle hellion drops. I've also seen a lot of pros (again more than oracles) lose also being faster than that to widow mine drops. You also lose if you react about that speed to baneling drops and mutalisks... Should I change the number I used to 1 second? Or a 1/2 second? I threw out 2 as an arbitrary number; I don't watch pro games with a stopwatch to time these things. The point I was making is that oracles are not as useless as the person I responded to made them out to be. They aren't useless but they're too expensive for their usefulness past the early game. And making them cheaper mainly helps them in the early game. That is the entire problem of oracles, it isn't that they can't use some changes, but that you need to do it without making them stronger as gimmick cheese unit. Exactly. A speed buff won't really change the early game that much imo since oracle cheese relies on being unscouted. However it will make the oracle useful even when a single turret or a few units are in place if you control it well. And there we disagree, I don't think it will make the oracle more useful later in the game, I do think it will make the cheese better (arrives a bit faster, easier to kill small groups of defenders). Later in the game due to the deadlyness of oracles you always make every base 100% oracle proof when you know they are a threat. They are just too deadly to not do that. You also need a lot more attention and action to defend a hellbat drop than to execute it. Okay, lets nerf storm into the ground. Since also that takes alot more attention to defend than to execute. Pretty much every offensive ability has that little issue. Hell even nukes take more attention to defend than execute. okay next time i will tell my queen to just oneshot the medivac. stupid queen always needs so many shots right now...she really needs to work on oneshotting. and my idle worker...guess i better transfer them to my saturated natural so i gain 50 extra minerals and also T just loads up hellbats, drops natural and possibly does even more damage. If you only got 1 queen we are talking about really early game and then you have to add the tech cost of those hellbat drops. And even then you played way too greedy with only a queen for defense. Later in the game just a hellbat drop shouldn't do damage. Only when it becomes multiple drops, or dropping during a fight should still be dangerous. But if it takes you 25 seconds before your workers can mine again you should have made a bit more units and played less greedy. Show nested quote +1) How would you expect to do that as Medivac drop will always come faster than mutas? Queens will take way too long to kill medi before damage is already done , and single spore + crawler won't really stop it either as medivac will simply boost past it. Dude, seriously, read the post you quoted yourself. Especially the sentence after the bolded one... And if that spore is in your mineral line it can happily boost past it, but then it can't support the hellbats and they should die quickly.
so the drop comes at 7-9 min at which time you will have 3-4 queens in total so at most 2 queens will be in main to shoot medivac. also i need to build a spore in mineral line to kill medivac fast enough and need to build roaches to kill medivac. while T invests 300/100...yeah seems even. oh AND i will lose some say 200 min for 4 drones. yeah well...dude even T pros say its too strong. they know it better than you and me. hope blizz fixes it soon.
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On April 24 2013 17:57 Decendos wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2013 17:52 Sissors wrote:On April 24 2013 17:43 Decendos wrote:On April 24 2013 17:37 Sissors wrote:
dont know about your math but 300/100 is equal to not mining 25 sec, plus you have to build static/units that cost something and since medivac is much faster than worker you will always lose 3-4 worker which is another 200 min. so yeah...it IS basically impossible to not be at least even if you fuck up the drop. thats bad design.
Yeah if your workers are idle for 25 seconds you are doing something wrong. But then just make sure you kill the medivac before it arrives in your mineral line. Only in the early game that won't be possible, but then you also got the tech cost added + a significantly weaker main army of the agressor. On April 24 2013 17:31 DarkLordOlli wrote:On April 24 2013 17:25 Sissors wrote:On April 24 2013 17:23 DarkLordOlli wrote:On April 24 2013 17:23 Terrasmith wrote:On April 24 2013 17:19 convention wrote:On April 24 2013 17:14 Terrasmith wrote:
[quote]
Yet I've seen pros lose games (most notably MC) because they reacted to an oracle too slowly. I've seen a lot more pros lose because they reacted faster than that to battle hellion drops. I've also seen a lot of pros (again more than oracles) lose also being faster than that to widow mine drops. You also lose if you react about that speed to baneling drops and mutalisks... Should I change the number I used to 1 second? Or a 1/2 second? I threw out 2 as an arbitrary number; I don't watch pro games with a stopwatch to time these things. The point I was making is that oracles are not as useless as the person I responded to made them out to be. They aren't useless but they're too expensive for their usefulness past the early game. And making them cheaper mainly helps them in the early game. That is the entire problem of oracles, it isn't that they can't use some changes, but that you need to do it without making them stronger as gimmick cheese unit. Exactly. A speed buff won't really change the early game that much imo since oracle cheese relies on being unscouted. However it will make the oracle useful even when a single turret or a few units are in place if you control it well. And there we disagree, I don't think it will make the oracle more useful later in the game, I do think it will make the cheese better (arrives a bit faster, easier to kill small groups of defenders). Later in the game due to the deadlyness of oracles you always make every base 100% oracle proof when you know they are a threat. They are just too deadly to not do that. You also need a lot more attention and action to defend a hellbat drop than to execute it. Okay, lets nerf storm into the ground. Since also that takes alot more attention to defend than to execute. Pretty much every offensive ability has that little issue. Hell even nukes take more attention to defend than execute. okay next time i will tell my queen to just oneshot the medivac. stupid queen always needs so many shots right now...she really needs to work on oneshotting. and my idle worker...guess i better transfer them to my saturated natural so i gain 50 extra minerals and also T just loads up hellbats, drops natural and possibly does even more damage. If you only got 1 queen we are talking about really early game and then you have to add the tech cost of those hellbat drops. And even then you played way too greedy with only a queen for defense. Later in the game just a hellbat drop shouldn't do damage. Only when it becomes multiple drops, or dropping during a fight should still be dangerous. But if it takes you 25 seconds before your workers can mine again you should have made a bit more units and played less greedy. 1) How would you expect to do that as Medivac drop will always come faster than mutas? Queens will take way too long to kill medi before damage is already done , and single spore + crawler won't really stop it either as medivac will simply boost past it. Dude, seriously, read the post you quoted yourself. Especially the sentence after the bolded one... And if that spore is in your mineral line it can happily boost past it, but then it can't support the hellbats and they should die quickly. so the drop comes at 7-9 min at which time you will have 3-4 queens in total so at most 2 queens will be in main to shoot medivac. also i need to build a spore in mineral line to kill medivac fast enough and need to build roaches to kill medivac. while T invests 300/100...yeah seems even. oh AND i will lose some say 200 min for 4 drones. yeah well...dude even T pros say its too strong. they know it better than you and me. hope blizz fixes it soon.
Yeah, those roaches will do a great job at hitting that medivac. Say you have two queens and a spore, and you pull drones when you see the medivac coming. You kill the medivac, and fight two hellbats with two queens and whatever units you made for defense, losing 0-4 drones, depending on how well the terran micros the medivac and hellbats. So you've built...one spore crawler explicitly to defend against the drop. What a huge investment.
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On April 24 2013 17:56 Terrasmith wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2013 17:52 Sokrates wrote:On April 24 2013 17:37 Sissors wrote:[ You also need a lot more attention and action to defend a hellbat drop than to execute it. Okay, lets nerf storm into the ground. Since also that takes alot more attention to defend than to execute. Pretty much every offensive ability has that little issue. Hell even nukes take more attention to defend than execute. It is NOT JUST THAT. It is the addition of all of this. It is the extreme costeffectiveness, the possible gamgechangeing impact with little risk and easy execution. It has no downside, it has just a lot of big and little benefits. Funny, baneling drops sound pretty similar. As do proxy zealot warp ins. As do half a dozen other things.
Oh come on, you have little to no clue about this game. You compare baneling drops to hellbat drops, that speaks for itself.
That is just one of the worst comparisons i ve ever read on a starcraft forum.
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So what you say is you want to defend it with 2 queens without losing drones? Also do want hellbat drop I can get including tech and oppertunity cost for 300/100...
You want that spore anyway in case cloakshees come, or should they also be nerfed? Also FYI building roaches to kill a medivac might not be as effective as you would think.
@Socrates, hallucinations? Never did that. No one else did btw. The one who did didn't compare them to hellbat drops, he compared them to why according to you hellbat drops are op, and concluded that with that list of reasons also baneling drops would be op.
Edit: heh ninja edit of Soc
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EPT
