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Blizzard's Potential Balance Test Map Changes - Page 37

Forum Index > SC2 General
1113 CommentsPost a Reply
Prev 1 35 36 37 38 39 56 Next
Killscreen
Profile Joined February 2012
188 Posts
April 24 2013 09:41 GMT
#721
This is just Blizzard testing. This tells me that they arent sure how they are going to fix zvz, and make oracles a bit more usable. Hellbats and Void Rays are being nerfed, and this change does not require any public testing before being pushed live which is why youre not seeing it on the test map.

IMO spore crawler +bio buff wont change anything. The only thing I can see changing the meta game is if the infestor got the insta fungal back.
Olli
Profile Blog Joined February 2012
Austria24422 Posts
April 24 2013 09:42 GMT
#722
The thing with hellbat drops is that you're not drifting off your tech path at all while doing them. They're kind of a "byproduct" of opening rax -> factory -> starport, an opening terrans have always done. The only thing you add to it is an armory and you're good to go and win the game if your opponent doesn't defend perfectly.
Now take oracles. You have to commit to an early stargate (150 gas) + the oracle (150 gas) and run the risk of getting shut down by a single turret in each mineral line. Do you want that stargate? No, you don't. The only thing it does for you is oracles unless you go into phoenix afterwards (which have the exact same problem). Now, do you want rax, factory, starport? Yes, you do. Even the armory is useful later on.
Administrator"Declaring anything a disaster because aLive popped up out of nowhere is just downright silly."
NervO
Profile Blog Joined May 2012
Netherlands511 Posts
April 24 2013 09:43 GMT
#723
Oracle ;-; don't make me even Q_Q more pls D:
Currently working with Team Acer CSGO | @AcerNervO
rEalGuapo
Profile Joined January 2011
Germany832 Posts
April 24 2013 09:45 GMT
#724
The Oracle change is not really gonna help the units become useful.
It will be stronger in PvP, depending on how fast they will make it. If it is able to outrun a Phoenix Oracle opening will be seen every single game, if not nothing changes.

The problem is not that it is too slow, the problem it's a hit or miss unit. If you manage to deny scouting in PvT (Scan so . . .) you can win with it. If Terran knows what's coming, 3 Turrets will take care of it and the counter attack will just kill you.

In PvZ this will help outmove Queens a little but other than that Oracles vs. a Zerg going for Mutas will still be an auto-loss. . .

BUT maybe this will make it a more viable lategame unit, to keep track of armies via Envision. Kind of a lategame scout with the potential to deal a lot of damage if the opponent forgot to put up some static D.
Deadreckoning
Profile Joined October 2010
Germany19 Posts
April 24 2013 09:46 GMT
#725
Faster Oracle,hmm i will wonder what Protoss will play very often after that patch.
Uni1987
Profile Joined September 2010
Netherlands642 Posts
April 24 2013 09:47 GMT
#726
On April 24 2013 18:38 Veriol wrote:
How is +bio on spores solve muta zvz? This change just heavily implies that they have NO IDEA. Problem with zvz is you cant take safely third because infestors wont stop mutas (like they did in wol). Therefore muta player always have uncontested third and can just roll over you with anything


I think that ZvZ is still developing. I've been going infestors lately and have a winrate of 63% vZ. Its not just the infestors that cut it, just creep towards your third and already have 3 spores ready to root. Often I even vomit creep with an overlord before I start my 3rd and root 3 spores. The won't roll over it, since I have 8 infestor burrowed there so at that moment I am actually wishing he tries to take it out :p
.............
Big J
Profile Joined March 2011
Austria16289 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-04-24 09:52:23
April 24 2013 09:50 GMT
#727
On April 24 2013 18:38 Veriol wrote:
How is +bio on spores solve muta zvz? This change just heavily implies that they have NO IDEA. Problem with zvz is you cant take safely third because infestors wont stop mutas (like they did in wol). Therefore muta player always have uncontested third and can just roll over you with anything


In WoL ZvZ you couldn't safely take your third either before infestors againts mutas. That's why so many Zergs opened mutas. Basically the ZvZ (macro-)metagame in WoL at the end was one of the following:
-) Zerg1 goes mutas and early third, Zerg2 goes upgrades, roaches and infestors and later third.
-) Zerg1 and Zerg2 go upgrades, roaches and early third and then either infestors or hydras.
(rarely you'd get muta vs muta, as just like in HotS, muta vs muta openings favor the player that already has an advantage. So a player who took some damage, or overmade gasunits - banelings and roaches - early on simply wouldn't try to go muta)

The thing was, that you could go 2base vs 3base for a short amount of time, as long as you were better set up in terms of upgrades and technology - two things that right now don't matter past building a spire.
hzflank
Profile Joined August 2011
United Kingdom2991 Posts
April 24 2013 09:55 GMT
#728
On April 24 2013 18:21 Terrasmith wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 24 2013 18:18 Sokrates wrote:
On April 24 2013 18:10 Terrasmith wrote:
On April 24 2013 18:06 Sokrates wrote:
On April 24 2013 18:04 Terrasmith wrote:
On April 24 2013 18:02 Sokrates wrote:
On April 24 2013 17:56 Terrasmith wrote:
On April 24 2013 17:52 Sokrates wrote:
On April 24 2013 17:37 Sissors wrote:
[

You also need a lot more attention and action to defend a hellbat drop than to execute it.

Okay, lets nerf storm into the ground. Since also that takes alot more attention to defend than to execute. Pretty much every offensive ability has that little issue. Hell even nukes take more attention to defend than execute.



It is NOT JUST THAT. It is the addition of all of this. It is the extreme costeffectiveness, the possible gamgechangeing impact with little risk and easy execution. It has no downside, it has just a lot of big and little benefits.


Funny, baneling drops sound pretty similar. As do proxy zealot warp ins. As do half a dozen other things.


Oh come on, you have little to no clue about this game. You compare baneling drops to hellbat drops, that speaks for itself.

That is just one of the worst comparisons i ve ever read on a starcraft forum.


Aside from the fact that overlord speed and ventral sacs are rarely researched, how exactly is dropping four banelings on a mineral line different from dropping two hellbats?


1. The terran will have turrets everywhere.
2. He has marines.
3. Overlords are much slower.

Your overlord wont even get to unload. Why do you think you wont see banedrops EVER.


So...in other words, the terran built static defense. Marines won't catch the overlord before it unloads if you don't fly over the entire base to get to the workers. So your argument is that terran will have turrets. Hmmm...



The turrets are against mutas, not the banelings.


So if I build spores against marine drops and they end up countering hellbat drops, it shouldn't count? The terran built static defense, it succeeded in preventing an attack. Maybe zergs should build spines and spores more often.


Missile turrets do a lot more damage to medivacs than spores do. A spore will help a lot against a hellbat drop, but even when you add the queens damage in it will still kill the medivac slower than a turret would. The spore is also more expensive than the turret, although does not require the engi bay. Even after you kill the medivac you still need to actually kill the hellbats before you can send your workers back to the mineral line. Even if the hellbats do not kill a single unit then the defender will probably lose 150 minerals and a little gas from having his workers idle.

Overlord drop requires lair tech and has a really long research time. Hellbat drops can start several minutes before baneling drops can. Imagine if the baneling drops were starting from the 8 minute mark. You can also run workers away from baneling drops. You can only run workers from hellbats if the terran is not microing them or if boost is on cooldown.
Klyberess
Profile Joined October 2010
Sweden345 Posts
April 24 2013 10:19 GMT
#729
Blizzard looked at the game and went "we need more cheese"? Wtf.
EmpireHappy <3 STHack <3 ByunPrime
TeeTS
Profile Joined June 2011
Germany2762 Posts
April 24 2013 10:38 GMT
#730
On April 24 2013 19:19 Klyberess wrote:
Blizzard looked at the game and went "we need more cheese"? Wtf.

#2 !!!
This is so stupid by Blizzard, if they really plan to implement these changes. xX
Quateras
Profile Joined August 2012
Germany867 Posts
April 24 2013 10:43 GMT
#731
I wonder why Blizzard feels so reluctant to buff the hydra range AA or DMG output.
I can't seem to find a reason for them not to.

It would certainly help them in ZvZ, ZvP with the skytoss and ZvT should be fine too,no?
Feels weird, but I'd just like to see more hydras, i miss them from BW :D
"If you don't know where you are going, you can never get lost."
Olli
Profile Blog Joined February 2012
Austria24422 Posts
April 24 2013 10:46 GMT
#732
On April 24 2013 19:43 Quateras wrote:
I wonder why Blizzard feels so reluctant to buff the hydra range AA or DMG output.
I can't seem to find a reason for them not to.

It would certainly help them in ZvZ, ZvP with the skytoss and ZvT should be fine too,no?
Feels weird, but I'd just like to see more hydras, i miss them from BW :D


Hydra DPS is pretty good man, they just die insanely fast.
Administrator"Declaring anything a disaster because aLive popped up out of nowhere is just downright silly."
blackbrrd
Profile Joined September 2010
Norway477 Posts
April 24 2013 11:02 GMT
#733
On April 24 2013 19:43 Quateras wrote:
I wonder why Blizzard feels so reluctant to buff the hydra range AA or DMG output.
I can't seem to find a reason for them not to.

It would certainly help them in ZvZ, ZvP with the skytoss and ZvT should be fine too,no?
Feels weird, but I'd just like to see more hydras, i miss them from BW :D

Because of the other matchups - for instance against Protoss where they are very strong already?
Decendos
Profile Joined August 2011
Germany1341 Posts
April 24 2013 11:09 GMT
#734
On April 24 2013 19:43 Quateras wrote:
I wonder why Blizzard feels so reluctant to buff the hydra range AA or DMG output.
I can't seem to find a reason for them not to.

It would certainly help them in ZvZ, ZvP with the skytoss and ZvT should be fine too,no?
Feels weird, but I'd just like to see more hydras, i miss them from BW :D



yeah Z has been waiting for HOTS so that blizz fixes hydras...and they havent made it better lol. so sad to see that hydras suck so hard in midgame or arent viable at all
Deleted User 261926
Profile Joined April 2012
960 Posts
April 24 2013 11:14 GMT
#735
This is cool and all but I don't see the widow mine being mentioned.
Simsons2
Profile Joined March 2013
Latvia73 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-04-24 11:17:33
April 24 2013 11:16 GMT
#736
On April 24 2013 20:02 blackbrrd wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 24 2013 19:43 Quateras wrote:
I wonder why Blizzard feels so reluctant to buff the hydra range AA or DMG output.
I can't seem to find a reason for them not to.

It would certainly help them in ZvZ, ZvP with the skytoss and ZvT should be fine too,no?
Feels weird, but I'd just like to see more hydras, i miss them from BW :D

Because of the other matchups - for instance against Protoss where they are very strong already?


Which wouldn't matter if that buff would be +bio damage to hydras. Would not change the ZvP setup which i as Z see it's more zerg favored , would help against mutas in ZvZ and help Roach/hydra to be somewhat viable against MMM.
Giantt
Profile Joined December 2010
Bulgaria82 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-04-24 11:38:48
April 24 2013 11:37 GMT
#737
Hydras should get base armor boost - something in between 1 and 3 - that would solve so many problems and open new opportunities without being OP imo.
I do not feel that spore +bio damage would bring what's intended.
TheDwf
Profile Joined November 2011
France19747 Posts
April 24 2013 11:41 GMT
#738
On April 24 2013 20:37 Giantt wrote:
Hydras should get base armor boost - something in between 1 and 3 - that would solve so many problems and open new opportunities without being OP imo.
I do not feel that spore +bio damage would bring what's intended.

A tier2 ground unit with as much native armor as capital ships? Makes sense.
monsta
Profile Joined November 2012
172 Posts
April 24 2013 11:47 GMT
#739
what about a fungal buff against air units? fungal should 2 shot mutas .. and this buff would only change ZvP against air units and i think this would be ok because voidrays are strong enough..
Eboceixa
Profile Joined June 2011
Belgium60 Posts
April 24 2013 11:57 GMT
#740
I like these changes even the oracle one.

I'd like to see a small tweek on PvZ late game though!
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