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On April 24 2013 18:02 Sissors wrote:
So what you say is you want to defend it with 2 queens without losing drones? Also do want hellbat drop I can get including tech and oppertunity cost for 300/100...
You want that spore anyway in case cloakshees come, or should they also be nerfed? Also FYI building roaches to kill a medivac might not be as effective as you would think.
@Socrates, hallucinations? Never did that. No one else did btw.
Sry i quoted the wrong one :/.
Still you are missing the point, when the drops hit you dont have anything else to defend it than roaches (you dont want to make anyway because they are useless), you wont have mutas to catch the incomming drop.
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On April 24 2013 18:02 Sokrates wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2013 17:56 Terrasmith wrote:On April 24 2013 17:52 Sokrates wrote:On April 24 2013 17:37 Sissors wrote:[ You also need a lot more attention and action to defend a hellbat drop than to execute it. Okay, lets nerf storm into the ground. Since also that takes alot more attention to defend than to execute. Pretty much every offensive ability has that little issue. Hell even nukes take more attention to defend than execute. It is NOT JUST THAT. It is the addition of all of this. It is the extreme costeffectiveness, the possible gamgechangeing impact with little risk and easy execution. It has no downside, it has just a lot of big and little benefits. Funny, baneling drops sound pretty similar. As do proxy zealot warp ins. As do half a dozen other things. Oh come on, you have little to no clue about this game. You compare baneling drops to hellbat drops, that speaks for itself. That is just one of the worst comparisons i ve ever read on a starcraft forum.
Aside from the fact that overlord speed and ventral sacs are rarely researched, how exactly is dropping four banelings on a mineral line different from dropping two hellbats?
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On April 24 2013 17:59 Terrasmith wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2013 17:57 Decendos wrote:On April 24 2013 17:52 Sissors wrote:On April 24 2013 17:43 Decendos wrote:On April 24 2013 17:37 Sissors wrote:
dont know about your math but 300/100 is equal to not mining 25 sec, plus you have to build static/units that cost something and since medivac is much faster than worker you will always lose 3-4 worker which is another 200 min. so yeah...it IS basically impossible to not be at least even if you fuck up the drop. thats bad design.
Yeah if your workers are idle for 25 seconds you are doing something wrong. But then just make sure you kill the medivac before it arrives in your mineral line. Only in the early game that won't be possible, but then you also got the tech cost added + a significantly weaker main army of the agressor. On April 24 2013 17:31 DarkLordOlli wrote:On April 24 2013 17:25 Sissors wrote:On April 24 2013 17:23 DarkLordOlli wrote:On April 24 2013 17:23 Terrasmith wrote:On April 24 2013 17:19 convention wrote:
[quote]
I've seen a lot more pros lose because they reacted faster than that to battle hellion drops. I've also seen a lot of pros (again more than oracles) lose also being faster than that to widow mine drops. You also lose if you react about that speed to baneling drops and mutalisks... Should I change the number I used to 1 second? Or a 1/2 second? I threw out 2 as an arbitrary number; I don't watch pro games with a stopwatch to time these things. The point I was making is that oracles are not as useless as the person I responded to made them out to be. They aren't useless but they're too expensive for their usefulness past the early game. And making them cheaper mainly helps them in the early game. That is the entire problem of oracles, it isn't that they can't use some changes, but that you need to do it without making them stronger as gimmick cheese unit. Exactly. A speed buff won't really change the early game that much imo since oracle cheese relies on being unscouted. However it will make the oracle useful even when a single turret or a few units are in place if you control it well. And there we disagree, I don't think it will make the oracle more useful later in the game, I do think it will make the cheese better (arrives a bit faster, easier to kill small groups of defenders). Later in the game due to the deadlyness of oracles you always make every base 100% oracle proof when you know they are a threat. They are just too deadly to not do that. You also need a lot more attention and action to defend a hellbat drop than to execute it. Okay, lets nerf storm into the ground. Since also that takes alot more attention to defend than to execute. Pretty much every offensive ability has that little issue. Hell even nukes take more attention to defend than execute. okay next time i will tell my queen to just oneshot the medivac. stupid queen always needs so many shots right now...she really needs to work on oneshotting. and my idle worker...guess i better transfer them to my saturated natural so i gain 50 extra minerals and also T just loads up hellbats, drops natural and possibly does even more damage. If you only got 1 queen we are talking about really early game and then you have to add the tech cost of those hellbat drops. And even then you played way too greedy with only a queen for defense. Later in the game just a hellbat drop shouldn't do damage. Only when it becomes multiple drops, or dropping during a fight should still be dangerous. But if it takes you 25 seconds before your workers can mine again you should have made a bit more units and played less greedy. 1) How would you expect to do that as Medivac drop will always come faster than mutas? Queens will take way too long to kill medi before damage is already done , and single spore + crawler won't really stop it either as medivac will simply boost past it. Dude, seriously, read the post you quoted yourself. Especially the sentence after the bolded one... And if that spore is in your mineral line it can happily boost past it, but then it can't support the hellbats and they should die quickly. so the drop comes at 7-9 min at which time you will have 3-4 queens in total so at most 2 queens will be in main to shoot medivac. also i need to build a spore in mineral line to kill medivac fast enough and need to build roaches to kill medivac. while T invests 300/100...yeah seems even. oh AND i will lose some say 200 min for 4 drones. yeah well...dude even T pros say its too strong. they know it better than you and me. hope blizz fixes it soon. Yeah, those roaches will do a great job at hitting that medivac. Say you have two queens and a spore, and you pull drones when you see the medivac coming. You kill the medivac, and fight two hellbats with two queens and whatever units you made for defense, losing 0-4 drones, depending on how well the terran micros the medivac and hellbats. So you've built...one spore crawler explicitly to defend against the drop. What a huge investment.
so i have to build 2 spores = 250 min, lose 4 drones (which even GSL Z/T players dont manage...its more) = 200 min and have to build say 4 roaches which is another 300/100 which becomes useless vs the usual MMMM follow up. oh and what you seem to forget: in the time i kill the 2 hellbats in my mineral line...my drones cant work: another 300/100 lost which already is the cost of the drop rofl. so now do the math. its not that hard. hf defending your OP drop which even T pros say its OP.
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Honestly I don't know about Zerg, but as a Terran, when I play against Protoss I just have to keep the potential for oracles in the back of my mind and they don't do much. Either you take a risk and choose not to prepare for it, either you prepare for it. There are plenty of things you can incorporate in your build to negate oracles. In my order of preference:
_ make a build that naturally produces more marines. So no more 1 rax triple CC openings. Include a reactor somewhere after a reaper opening, it's much easier to have enough marines with a 1 rax expand reactor build.
_ If you go for a pretty offensive 1 base stuff, you always have the option of widow mines.
_ In the same vein, one viking does the job too.
_ You can always go for early turrets if you've scouted the build or you're not confident in your reaction time.
Edit: And you can also, you know, scout it sometimes 
When I lost a lot of shit to oracles early on that was when I completely forgot about them. Kinda like "SHIT, they do have that too, goddammit I'm screwed :D"
The existence of such early game threats is what keeps the builds honest and what makes a good balanced game imo, not fucking buffing static defenses or queens. So yes to buffing oracles.
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On April 24 2013 18:04 Terrasmith wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2013 18:02 Sokrates wrote:On April 24 2013 17:56 Terrasmith wrote:On April 24 2013 17:52 Sokrates wrote:On April 24 2013 17:37 Sissors wrote:[ You also need a lot more attention and action to defend a hellbat drop than to execute it. Okay, lets nerf storm into the ground. Since also that takes alot more attention to defend than to execute. Pretty much every offensive ability has that little issue. Hell even nukes take more attention to defend than execute. It is NOT JUST THAT. It is the addition of all of this. It is the extreme costeffectiveness, the possible gamgechangeing impact with little risk and easy execution. It has no downside, it has just a lot of big and little benefits. Funny, baneling drops sound pretty similar. As do proxy zealot warp ins. As do half a dozen other things. Oh come on, you have little to no clue about this game. You compare baneling drops to hellbat drops, that speaks for itself. That is just one of the worst comparisons i ve ever read on a starcraft forum. Aside from the fact that overlord speed and ventral sacs are rarely researched, how exactly is dropping four banelings on a mineral line different from dropping two hellbats?
1. The terran will have turrets everywhere.
2. He has marines.
3. Overlords are much slower.
4. We are talking about a completly different time in the game. The time you can afford banelingdrops is past the 10min mark.
Your overlord wont even get to unload. Why do you think you wont see banedrops EVER.
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On April 24 2013 18:04 Terrasmith wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2013 18:02 Sokrates wrote:On April 24 2013 17:56 Terrasmith wrote:On April 24 2013 17:52 Sokrates wrote:On April 24 2013 17:37 Sissors wrote:[ You also need a lot more attention and action to defend a hellbat drop than to execute it. Okay, lets nerf storm into the ground. Since also that takes alot more attention to defend than to execute. Pretty much every offensive ability has that little issue. Hell even nukes take more attention to defend than execute. It is NOT JUST THAT. It is the addition of all of this. It is the extreme costeffectiveness, the possible gamgechangeing impact with little risk and easy execution. It has no downside, it has just a lot of big and little benefits. Funny, baneling drops sound pretty similar. As do proxy zealot warp ins. As do half a dozen other things. Oh come on, you have little to no clue about this game. You compare baneling drops to hellbat drops, that speaks for itself. That is just one of the worst comparisons i ve ever read on a starcraft forum. Aside from the fact that overlord speed and ventral sacs are rarely researched, how exactly is dropping four banelings on a mineral line different from dropping two hellbats?
There´s many large differences, dont be daft.
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I feel like Muta still has to be viable in ZvZ if we put up the dmg even more I feel the worker harass won't be worthwhile anymore 
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On April 24 2013 18:06 Sokrates wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2013 18:04 Terrasmith wrote:On April 24 2013 18:02 Sokrates wrote:On April 24 2013 17:56 Terrasmith wrote:On April 24 2013 17:52 Sokrates wrote:On April 24 2013 17:37 Sissors wrote:[ You also need a lot more attention and action to defend a hellbat drop than to execute it. Okay, lets nerf storm into the ground. Since also that takes alot more attention to defend than to execute. Pretty much every offensive ability has that little issue. Hell even nukes take more attention to defend than execute. It is NOT JUST THAT. It is the addition of all of this. It is the extreme costeffectiveness, the possible gamgechangeing impact with little risk and easy execution. It has no downside, it has just a lot of big and little benefits. Funny, baneling drops sound pretty similar. As do proxy zealot warp ins. As do half a dozen other things. Oh come on, you have little to no clue about this game. You compare baneling drops to hellbat drops, that speaks for itself. That is just one of the worst comparisons i ve ever read on a starcraft forum. Aside from the fact that overlord speed and ventral sacs are rarely researched, how exactly is dropping four banelings on a mineral line different from dropping two hellbats? 1. The terran will have turrets everywhere. 2. He has marines. 3. Overlords are much slower. Your overlord wont even get to unload. Why do you think you wont see banedrops EVER.
So...in other words, the terran built static defense. Marines won't catch the overlord before it unloads if you don't fly over the entire base to get to the workers. So your argument is that terran will have turrets. Hmmm...
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On April 24 2013 18:06 Sokrates wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2013 18:04 Terrasmith wrote:On April 24 2013 18:02 Sokrates wrote:On April 24 2013 17:56 Terrasmith wrote:On April 24 2013 17:52 Sokrates wrote:On April 24 2013 17:37 Sissors wrote:[ You also need a lot more attention and action to defend a hellbat drop than to execute it. Okay, lets nerf storm into the ground. Since also that takes alot more attention to defend than to execute. Pretty much every offensive ability has that little issue. Hell even nukes take more attention to defend than execute. It is NOT JUST THAT. It is the addition of all of this. It is the extreme costeffectiveness, the possible gamgechangeing impact with little risk and easy execution. It has no downside, it has just a lot of big and little benefits. Funny, baneling drops sound pretty similar. As do proxy zealot warp ins. As do half a dozen other things. Oh come on, you have little to no clue about this game. You compare baneling drops to hellbat drops, that speaks for itself. That is just one of the worst comparisons i ve ever read on a starcraft forum. Aside from the fact that overlord speed and ventral sacs are rarely researched, how exactly is dropping four banelings on a mineral line different from dropping two hellbats? 1. The terran will have turrets everywhere. 2. He has marines. 3. Overlords are much slower. 4. We are talking about a completly different time in the game. The time you can afford banelingdrops is past the 10min mark. Your overlord wont even get to unload. Why do you think you wont see banedrops EVER.
Don't forget, the banelings die after they hit the scvs, so you will lose gas regardless if the drop did anything or not, the hellbats can just lift up in the medivac and boost away, with nothing but medivac energy lost.
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On April 24 2013 18:03 Sokrates wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2013 18:02 Sissors wrote:
So what you say is you want to defend it with 2 queens without losing drones? Also do want hellbat drop I can get including tech and oppertunity cost for 300/100...
You want that spore anyway in case cloakshees come, or should they also be nerfed? Also FYI building roaches to kill a medivac might not be as effective as you would think.
@Socrates, hallucinations? Never did that. No one else did btw. Sry i quoted the wrong one :/. Still you are missing the point, when the drops hit you dont have anything else to defend it than roaches (you dont want to make anyway because they are useless), you wont have mutas to catch the incomming drop.
If you want to go ling/bling/muta use some blings on the hellbats. Definately not the most cost-effective way to kill them, but since after that you got mutas anyway to defend against follow up waves it also isn't that big a deal.
And yeah sure if you look purely at the cost of defending it is more than what the attacker spends, but that defense also works against other kinds of agression. And the attackers main tech path is also significantly delayed. Looking at that a burrowed ling is ridiculously OP: it costs me 270 resources to kill a 25 resources unit, and that is excluding time lost!
1. The terran will have turrets everywhere.
That is also something I notice. Terrans do build static defenses, they invest way more in defense than other races. Of course there is a reason for it. Look for example as terran doomdrops, they are by far most dangerous to other terrans: a sieged up bio-mech army in your main does not make you a happy panda as terran. So you just have to invest in missile turrets, and quite many of them. Even if your opponent didn't drop you, you still had to invest 100's of minerals into them.
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Looking forward to the day when they finally decide to move Adrenal Glands to T1 or T2 and reduce the cost
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On April 24 2013 18:10 Terrasmith wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2013 18:06 Sokrates wrote:On April 24 2013 18:04 Terrasmith wrote:On April 24 2013 18:02 Sokrates wrote:On April 24 2013 17:56 Terrasmith wrote:On April 24 2013 17:52 Sokrates wrote:On April 24 2013 17:37 Sissors wrote:[ You also need a lot more attention and action to defend a hellbat drop than to execute it. Okay, lets nerf storm into the ground. Since also that takes alot more attention to defend than to execute. Pretty much every offensive ability has that little issue. Hell even nukes take more attention to defend than execute. It is NOT JUST THAT. It is the addition of all of this. It is the extreme costeffectiveness, the possible gamgechangeing impact with little risk and easy execution. It has no downside, it has just a lot of big and little benefits. Funny, baneling drops sound pretty similar. As do proxy zealot warp ins. As do half a dozen other things. Oh come on, you have little to no clue about this game. You compare baneling drops to hellbat drops, that speaks for itself. That is just one of the worst comparisons i ve ever read on a starcraft forum. Aside from the fact that overlord speed and ventral sacs are rarely researched, how exactly is dropping four banelings on a mineral line different from dropping two hellbats? 1. The terran will have turrets everywhere. 2. He has marines. 3. Overlords are much slower. Your overlord wont even get to unload. Why do you think you wont see banedrops EVER. So...in other words, the terran built static defense. Marines won't catch the overlord before it unloads if you don't fly over the entire base to get to the workers. So your argument is that terran will have turrets. Hmmm...
The turrets are against mutas, not the banelings.
On April 24 2013 18:16 Sissors wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2013 18:03 Sokrates wrote:On April 24 2013 18:02 Sissors wrote:
So what you say is you want to defend it with 2 queens without losing drones? Also do want hellbat drop I can get including tech and oppertunity cost for 300/100...
You want that spore anyway in case cloakshees come, or should they also be nerfed? Also FYI building roaches to kill a medivac might not be as effective as you would think.
@Socrates, hallucinations? Never did that. No one else did btw. Sry i quoted the wrong one :/. Still you are missing the point, when the drops hit you dont have anything else to defend it than roaches (you dont want to make anyway because they are useless), you wont have mutas to catch the incomming drop. If you want to go ling/bling/muta use some blings on the hellbats. Definately not the most cost-effective way to kill them, but since after that you got mutas anyway to defend against follow up waves it also isn't that big a deal. And yeah sure if you look purely at the cost of defending it is more than what the attacker spends, but that defense also works against other kinds of agression. And the attackers main tech path is also significantly delayed. Looking at that a burrowed ling is ridiculously OP: it costs me 270 resources to kill a 25 resources unit, and that is excluding time lost! That is also something I notice. Terrans do build static defenses, they invest way more in defense than other races. Of course there is a reason for it. Look for example as terran doomdrops, they are by far most dangerous to other terrans: a sieged up bio-mech army in your main does not make you a happy panda as terran. So you just have to invest in missile turrets, and quite many of them. Even if your opponent didn't drop you, you still had to invest 100's of minerals into them.
Because their static defenses fullfill their task much better than what you get as a zerg, you cannot defend well against medivac drops with a bunch of sporecrawlers because the medivac will just unload at another place where there is not static defense and then you are not a happypanda zerg. BUt you can zone out a lot of mutalisks with missleturrets.
Sry but that is really basic sc2 information, it is pretty pointless having a discussion about this.
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Omg. Please don't change the Oracles.
It's not like it takes that much skill to micro them anyways.
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On April 24 2013 18:18 Sokrates wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2013 18:10 Terrasmith wrote:On April 24 2013 18:06 Sokrates wrote:On April 24 2013 18:04 Terrasmith wrote:On April 24 2013 18:02 Sokrates wrote:On April 24 2013 17:56 Terrasmith wrote:On April 24 2013 17:52 Sokrates wrote:On April 24 2013 17:37 Sissors wrote:[ You also need a lot more attention and action to defend a hellbat drop than to execute it. Okay, lets nerf storm into the ground. Since also that takes alot more attention to defend than to execute. Pretty much every offensive ability has that little issue. Hell even nukes take more attention to defend than execute. It is NOT JUST THAT. It is the addition of all of this. It is the extreme costeffectiveness, the possible gamgechangeing impact with little risk and easy execution. It has no downside, it has just a lot of big and little benefits. Funny, baneling drops sound pretty similar. As do proxy zealot warp ins. As do half a dozen other things. Oh come on, you have little to no clue about this game. You compare baneling drops to hellbat drops, that speaks for itself. That is just one of the worst comparisons i ve ever read on a starcraft forum. Aside from the fact that overlord speed and ventral sacs are rarely researched, how exactly is dropping four banelings on a mineral line different from dropping two hellbats? 1. The terran will have turrets everywhere. 2. He has marines. 3. Overlords are much slower. Your overlord wont even get to unload. Why do you think you wont see banedrops EVER. So...in other words, the terran built static defense. Marines won't catch the overlord before it unloads if you don't fly over the entire base to get to the workers. So your argument is that terran will have turrets. Hmmm... The turrets are against mutas, not the banelings.
So if I build spores against marine drops and they end up countering hellbat drops, it shouldn't count? The terran built static defense, it succeeded in preventing an attack. Maybe zergs should build spines and spores more often.
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By the way to avoid confusion: I do think it is a good idea to for example lower hellbat damage vs light and let them be affected again by blue flame upgrade (and lower cost of transformation servo's). I don't think some changes would be a bad idea, I do think there is a large overreaction from some people here who act like it would be as bad as WOL infestors were.
Aditionally terran drops need to stay viable. Terran requires drops (or at least the threat of them) to be competitive.
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On April 24 2013 18:21 Terrasmith wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2013 18:18 Sokrates wrote:On April 24 2013 18:10 Terrasmith wrote:On April 24 2013 18:06 Sokrates wrote:On April 24 2013 18:04 Terrasmith wrote:On April 24 2013 18:02 Sokrates wrote:On April 24 2013 17:56 Terrasmith wrote:On April 24 2013 17:52 Sokrates wrote:On April 24 2013 17:37 Sissors wrote:[ You also need a lot more attention and action to defend a hellbat drop than to execute it. Okay, lets nerf storm into the ground. Since also that takes alot more attention to defend than to execute. Pretty much every offensive ability has that little issue. Hell even nukes take more attention to defend than execute. It is NOT JUST THAT. It is the addition of all of this. It is the extreme costeffectiveness, the possible gamgechangeing impact with little risk and easy execution. It has no downside, it has just a lot of big and little benefits. Funny, baneling drops sound pretty similar. As do proxy zealot warp ins. As do half a dozen other things. Oh come on, you have little to no clue about this game. You compare baneling drops to hellbat drops, that speaks for itself. That is just one of the worst comparisons i ve ever read on a starcraft forum. Aside from the fact that overlord speed and ventral sacs are rarely researched, how exactly is dropping four banelings on a mineral line different from dropping two hellbats? 1. The terran will have turrets everywhere. 2. He has marines. 3. Overlords are much slower. Your overlord wont even get to unload. Why do you think you wont see banedrops EVER. So...in other words, the terran built static defense. Marines won't catch the overlord before it unloads if you don't fly over the entire base to get to the workers. So your argument is that terran will have turrets. Hmmm... The turrets are against mutas, not the banelings. So if I build spores against marine drops and they end up countering hellbat drops, it shouldn't count? The terran built static defense, it succeeded in preventing an attack. Maybe zergs should build spines and spores more often.
Sry but you have little clue about the game. It is REALLY basic information that it doesnt work that way. You cannot just throw down a bunch of spores and be safe against drops. You are not SAVE, it is not THAT effective. Let alone the fact that if you invest into mutas you invest into a unit that is weak in combat but good at harrasing. Let alone the fact that you invest almost all your gas into the mutalisks.
If you would invest all your gas into cloaked banshees than the spore/turret discussion would make a lot more sense. But this isnt the case.
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On April 23 2013 09:49 Ecstatic wrote:
I kind of understand what Blizzard is trying to do with the Oracle change... but they're not really adding anything to counterbalance the change are they? If a skillful player can just constantly harass with oracle, where is the counter micro from the opponent that allows them to fend them off?
Says the terran with drop ships. If he's going stargate you go kill him. or you know build a few turrets..
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How is +bio on spores solve muta zvz? This change just heavily implies that they have NO IDEA. Problem with zvz is you cant take safely third because infestors wont stop mutas (like they did in wol). Therefore muta player always have uncontested third and can just roll over you with anything
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Russian Federation1607 Posts
Just revert Fungal animation back to WoL !
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On April 24 2013 18:22 Sissors wrote:
By the way to avoid confusion: I do think it is a good idea to for example lower hellbat damage vs light and let them be affected again by blue flame upgrade (and lower cost of transformation servo's). I don't think some changes would be a bad idea, I do think there is a large overreaction from some people here who act like it would be as bad as WOL infestors were.
Aditionally terran drops need to stay viable. Terran requires drops (or at least the threat of them) to be competitive.
Reducing the +light damage and make them benefit from blue flame (to get to the level of previous damage for example) seems alright to me.
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EPT
