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also to all the "oracle already sooo strong" flamers here, on high level and that means even mid masters, they get nearly useless ...
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On April 24 2013 17:05 Decendos wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2013 17:01 FLUFFYPenguin wrote:On April 24 2013 16:23 Decendos wrote:On April 24 2013 16:12 Jerom wrote:
I don't like how they want to give Zerg more all ins. Honestly it feels like there is no race in the game that can all in better than zerg.. lol. this made me laugh. ZvP vs FFE you cant all in, ZvP vs gate expand you could do all ins and pressure...now with planetary nexus you cant. ZvT you could do roach ling (bling) pressure/all in, now with reaper into factory builds you cant. reaper scouts everything and mines + bunker and if you really want to push it a tank with free siege mode deals with everything. So, I guess you have never heard of Speedling/Roach allins off of 2 bases. do you even read what i write?! i said they work in WoL but DONT WORK vs reaper into factory into fast 3CC openings which is the absolute standard opening ZvT right now! wow...srsly you need to read before answering. it obv still works vs 1 rax FE or CC first since nothing has changed to WoL there but NOT vs reaper into fast 3 CC!
I'm sorry, I should have been more clear that I was talking about ZvP. I think you did quite clearly say that the Planetary Nexus will hold off any Roach/Ling all-ins, which is not true at all.
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On April 24 2013 17:06 CoR wrote:
also to all the "oracle already sooo strong" flamers here, on high level and that means even mid masters, they get nearly useless ...
Until your opponent reacts two seconds too slowly and loses.
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Austria24417 Posts
I LOOOOOOVE the potential Oracle change. They were getting a bit weak at higher levels.
And, something that most people won't realize, making them faster actually makes them a little harder to control because they'll fly into things faster if you don't babysit them enough. However your babysitting will be more rewarding. Loving it.
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On April 24 2013 17:07 FLUFFYPenguin wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2013 17:05 Decendos wrote:On April 24 2013 17:01 FLUFFYPenguin wrote:On April 24 2013 16:23 Decendos wrote:On April 24 2013 16:12 Jerom wrote:
I don't like how they want to give Zerg more all ins. Honestly it feels like there is no race in the game that can all in better than zerg.. lol. this made me laugh. ZvP vs FFE you cant all in, ZvP vs gate expand you could do all ins and pressure...now with planetary nexus you cant. ZvT you could do roach ling (bling) pressure/all in, now with reaper into factory builds you cant. reaper scouts everything and mines + bunker and if you really want to push it a tank with free siege mode deals with everything. So, I guess you have never heard of Speedling/Roach allins off of 2 bases. do you even read what i write?! i said they work in WoL but DONT WORK vs reaper into factory into fast 3CC openings which is the absolute standard opening ZvT right now! wow...srsly you need to read before answering. it obv still works vs 1 rax FE or CC first since nothing has changed to WoL there but NOT vs reaper into fast 3 CC! I'm sorry, I should have been more clear that I was talking about ZvP. I think you did quite clearly say that the Planetary Nexus will hold off any Roach/Ling all-ins, which is not true at all.
you are right that planetary nexus alone doesnt do that but seeing no 3rd from zerg means he is either teching or doing an all in so you can prepare + planetary nexus helps a lot and makes roach ling from 2 base much worse than in wol.
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"increase the oracle speed"
Whaaaaaaaaaaaaat, is that a joke?
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On April 24 2013 17:10 Terrasmith wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2013 17:06 CoR wrote:
also to all the "oracle already sooo strong" flamers here, on high level and that means even mid masters, they get nearly useless ... Until your opponent reacts two seconds too slowly and loses.
Lol, 2 seconds is a very long time. At high level that means about 5-10 actions :D
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On April 24 2013 17:11 Decendos wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2013 17:07 FLUFFYPenguin wrote:On April 24 2013 17:05 Decendos wrote:On April 24 2013 17:01 FLUFFYPenguin wrote:On April 24 2013 16:23 Decendos wrote:On April 24 2013 16:12 Jerom wrote:
I don't like how they want to give Zerg more all ins. Honestly it feels like there is no race in the game that can all in better than zerg.. lol. this made me laugh. ZvP vs FFE you cant all in, ZvP vs gate expand you could do all ins and pressure...now with planetary nexus you cant. ZvT you could do roach ling (bling) pressure/all in, now with reaper into factory builds you cant. reaper scouts everything and mines + bunker and if you really want to push it a tank with free siege mode deals with everything. So, I guess you have never heard of Speedling/Roach allins off of 2 bases. do you even read what i write?! i said they work in WoL but DONT WORK vs reaper into factory into fast 3CC openings which is the absolute standard opening ZvT right now! wow...srsly you need to read before answering. it obv still works vs 1 rax FE or CC first since nothing has changed to WoL there but NOT vs reaper into fast 3 CC! I'm sorry, I should have been more clear that I was talking about ZvP. I think you did quite clearly say that the Planetary Nexus will hold off any Roach/Ling all-ins, which is not true at all. you are right that planetary nexus alone doesnt do that but seeing no 3rd from zerg means he is either teching or doing an all in so you can prepare + planetary nexus helps a lot and makes roach ling from 2 base much worse than in wol.
That is true, yes.
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On April 24 2013 17:11 Decendos wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2013 17:07 FLUFFYPenguin wrote:On April 24 2013 17:05 Decendos wrote:On April 24 2013 17:01 FLUFFYPenguin wrote:On April 24 2013 16:23 Decendos wrote:On April 24 2013 16:12 Jerom wrote:
I don't like how they want to give Zerg more all ins. Honestly it feels like there is no race in the game that can all in better than zerg.. lol. this made me laugh. ZvP vs FFE you cant all in, ZvP vs gate expand you could do all ins and pressure...now with planetary nexus you cant. ZvT you could do roach ling (bling) pressure/all in, now with reaper into factory builds you cant. reaper scouts everything and mines + bunker and if you really want to push it a tank with free siege mode deals with everything. So, I guess you have never heard of Speedling/Roach allins off of 2 bases. do you even read what i write?! i said they work in WoL but DONT WORK vs reaper into factory into fast 3CC openings which is the absolute standard opening ZvT right now! wow...srsly you need to read before answering. it obv still works vs 1 rax FE or CC first since nothing has changed to WoL there but NOT vs reaper into fast 3 CC! I'm sorry, I should have been more clear that I was talking about ZvP. I think you did quite clearly say that the Planetary Nexus will hold off any Roach/Ling all-ins, which is not true at all. you are right that planetary nexus alone doesnt do that but seeing no 3rd from zerg means he is either teching or doing an all in so you can prepare + planetary nexus helps a lot and makes roach ling from 2 base much worse than in wol.
Is your only argument that WoL rushes don't work anymore? I mean, this IS HotS, it's to be expected that some WoL strats aren't viable.
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On April 24 2013 17:12 ZenithM wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2013 17:10 Terrasmith wrote:On April 24 2013 17:06 CoR wrote:
also to all the "oracle already sooo strong" flamers here, on high level and that means even mid masters, they get nearly useless ... Until your opponent reacts two seconds too slowly and loses. Lol, 2 seconds is a very long time. At high level that means about 5-10 actions :D
Yet I've seen pros lose games (most notably MC) because they reacted to an oracle too slowly.
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Austria24417 Posts
On April 24 2013 17:14 Terrasmith wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2013 17:12 ZenithM wrote:On April 24 2013 17:10 Terrasmith wrote:On April 24 2013 17:06 CoR wrote:
also to all the "oracle already sooo strong" flamers here, on high level and that means even mid masters, they get nearly useless ... Until your opponent reacts two seconds too slowly and loses. Lol, 2 seconds is a very long time. At high level that means about 5-10 actions :D Yet I've seen pros lose games (most notably MC) because they reacted to an oracle too slowly.
Spose they'll have to get better at it too then. Or you know, make static defense or leave units to defend. Take your pick.
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On April 24 2013 17:13 Terrasmith wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2013 17:11 Decendos wrote:On April 24 2013 17:07 FLUFFYPenguin wrote:On April 24 2013 17:05 Decendos wrote:On April 24 2013 17:01 FLUFFYPenguin wrote:On April 24 2013 16:23 Decendos wrote:On April 24 2013 16:12 Jerom wrote:
I don't like how they want to give Zerg more all ins. Honestly it feels like there is no race in the game that can all in better than zerg.. lol. this made me laugh. ZvP vs FFE you cant all in, ZvP vs gate expand you could do all ins and pressure...now with planetary nexus you cant. ZvT you could do roach ling (bling) pressure/all in, now with reaper into factory builds you cant. reaper scouts everything and mines + bunker and if you really want to push it a tank with free siege mode deals with everything. So, I guess you have never heard of Speedling/Roach allins off of 2 bases. do you even read what i write?! i said they work in WoL but DONT WORK vs reaper into factory into fast 3CC openings which is the absolute standard opening ZvT right now! wow...srsly you need to read before answering. it obv still works vs 1 rax FE or CC first since nothing has changed to WoL there but NOT vs reaper into fast 3 CC! I'm sorry, I should have been more clear that I was talking about ZvP. I think you did quite clearly say that the Planetary Nexus will hold off any Roach/Ling all-ins, which is not true at all. you are right that planetary nexus alone doesnt do that but seeing no 3rd from zerg means he is either teching or doing an all in so you can prepare + planetary nexus helps a lot and makes roach ling from 2 base much worse than in wol. Is your only argument that WoL rushes don't work anymore? I mean, this IS HotS, it's to be expected that some WoL strats aren't viable.
oh sorry i forgot Z got 10 new options early game and can do a lot of new stuff early game in HOTS. oh wait...NOT. thats the whole point why blizzard will buff burrow...BECAUSE Z has got literally NOTHING new in early game that helps doing aggression while both T and P got stuff to be more aggressive AND defend better. you see...thats what Z lacks right now and blizzard acknowledges. you dont it seems. luckily they do.
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On April 24 2013 17:04 CoR wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2013 17:03 Terrasmith wrote:
Blizzard might not be nerfing the hellbat because they don't mesh well with bio armies. The 4 medivac slots and the no stim means they make the whole army less mobile, and the strongest feature of bio is its mobility. Seeing as mech is never used, the hellbat is kinda stuck, and you don't see it all that often in pro games, except for against mass zealot and in tvt with a meching player. While hellbat drops are still strong, they aren't all that hard to counter with good static defense and a few roaches/mutas/stalkers/marines and marauders. Also, hellbats are easy to kite. still every TERRAN flames about hellbats because tvt is hellbat vs hellbat 
I am Terran (masters, since that apparently is important otherwise your opinion is invalid according to quite some people here), and I don't flame about hellbats. I barely ever use them in TvT since they are way overrated imo. Also hellbat drops are quite easy to deflect (as terran at least) and contrary to what someone else claimed, having to pull some workers while your opponent loses his medivac + 2 hellbats is not a win for your opponent.
Normally I play bio-mech, but bit ago I tried mech. Actually won also, and guess what, I kept my hellbats 90% of the time in hellion mode since the extra mobility was imo generally preferable over the extra combat power of hellbats. Also a bit ago for example I had 5 marauders. The enemy had 20 hellbats. I literally kited him across the entire map and only lost them in the end because he kept picking them up in medivacs to boost them on top of my marauders, which meant I had to stim them and I didn't have a medivac there. So they pretty much only died because I ran out of stims.
Of course I lost games to people playing hellbat-tank. Just like I lost games against pretty much every composition. And I won't deny in the beginning I also was "Omg OP, nerf plz". But then I just considered what to do about them, and realized they have shitty range and are horribly slow.
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On April 24 2013 17:16 Decendos wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2013 17:13 Terrasmith wrote:On April 24 2013 17:11 Decendos wrote:On April 24 2013 17:07 FLUFFYPenguin wrote:On April 24 2013 17:05 Decendos wrote:On April 24 2013 17:01 FLUFFYPenguin wrote:On April 24 2013 16:23 Decendos wrote:On April 24 2013 16:12 Jerom wrote:
I don't like how they want to give Zerg more all ins. Honestly it feels like there is no race in the game that can all in better than zerg.. lol. this made me laugh. ZvP vs FFE you cant all in, ZvP vs gate expand you could do all ins and pressure...now with planetary nexus you cant. ZvT you could do roach ling (bling) pressure/all in, now with reaper into factory builds you cant. reaper scouts everything and mines + bunker and if you really want to push it a tank with free siege mode deals with everything. So, I guess you have never heard of Speedling/Roach allins off of 2 bases. do you even read what i write?! i said they work in WoL but DONT WORK vs reaper into factory into fast 3CC openings which is the absolute standard opening ZvT right now! wow...srsly you need to read before answering. it obv still works vs 1 rax FE or CC first since nothing has changed to WoL there but NOT vs reaper into fast 3 CC! I'm sorry, I should have been more clear that I was talking about ZvP. I think you did quite clearly say that the Planetary Nexus will hold off any Roach/Ling all-ins, which is not true at all. you are right that planetary nexus alone doesnt do that but seeing no 3rd from zerg means he is either teching or doing an all in so you can prepare + planetary nexus helps a lot and makes roach ling from 2 base much worse than in wol. Is your only argument that WoL rushes don't work anymore? I mean, this IS HotS, it's to be expected that some WoL strats aren't viable. oh sorry i forgot Z got 10 new options early game and can do a lot of new stuff early game in HOTS. oh wait...NOT. thats the whole point why blizzard will buff burrow...BECAUSE Z has got literally NOTHING new in early game that helps doing aggression while both T and P got stuff to be more aggressive AND defend better. you see...thats what Z lacks right now and blizzard acknowledges. you dont it seems. luckily they do.
I didn't say use new units, I said stop using WoL strats. Maybe staying on hatch tech for a long time isn't as viable as it used to be. Maybe be more creative with burrow. It's already on hatch tech. Either way, your entire argument right now sounds like "my old strats don't work, Blizzard give me something else!"
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On April 24 2013 17:14 Terrasmith wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2013 17:12 ZenithM wrote:On April 24 2013 17:10 Terrasmith wrote:On April 24 2013 17:06 CoR wrote:
also to all the "oracle already sooo strong" flamers here, on high level and that means even mid masters, they get nearly useless ... Until your opponent reacts two seconds too slowly and loses. Lol, 2 seconds is a very long time. At high level that means about 5-10 actions :D Yet I've seen pros lose games (most notably MC) because they reacted to an oracle too slowly.
I've seen a lot more pros lose because they reacted faster than that to battle hellion drops. I've also seen a lot of pros (again more than oracles) lose also being faster than that to widow mine drops. You also lose if you react about that speed to baneling drops and mutalisks...
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On April 24 2013 17:19 Terrasmith wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2013 17:16 Decendos wrote:On April 24 2013 17:13 Terrasmith wrote:On April 24 2013 17:11 Decendos wrote:On April 24 2013 17:07 FLUFFYPenguin wrote:On April 24 2013 17:05 Decendos wrote:On April 24 2013 17:01 FLUFFYPenguin wrote:On April 24 2013 16:23 Decendos wrote:On April 24 2013 16:12 Jerom wrote:
I don't like how they want to give Zerg more all ins. Honestly it feels like there is no race in the game that can all in better than zerg.. lol. this made me laugh. ZvP vs FFE you cant all in, ZvP vs gate expand you could do all ins and pressure...now with planetary nexus you cant. ZvT you could do roach ling (bling) pressure/all in, now with reaper into factory builds you cant. reaper scouts everything and mines + bunker and if you really want to push it a tank with free siege mode deals with everything. So, I guess you have never heard of Speedling/Roach allins off of 2 bases. do you even read what i write?! i said they work in WoL but DONT WORK vs reaper into factory into fast 3CC openings which is the absolute standard opening ZvT right now! wow...srsly you need to read before answering. it obv still works vs 1 rax FE or CC first since nothing has changed to WoL there but NOT vs reaper into fast 3 CC! I'm sorry, I should have been more clear that I was talking about ZvP. I think you did quite clearly say that the Planetary Nexus will hold off any Roach/Ling all-ins, which is not true at all. you are right that planetary nexus alone doesnt do that but seeing no 3rd from zerg means he is either teching or doing an all in so you can prepare + planetary nexus helps a lot and makes roach ling from 2 base much worse than in wol. Is your only argument that WoL rushes don't work anymore? I mean, this IS HotS, it's to be expected that some WoL strats aren't viable. oh sorry i forgot Z got 10 new options early game and can do a lot of new stuff early game in HOTS. oh wait...NOT. thats the whole point why blizzard will buff burrow...BECAUSE Z has got literally NOTHING new in early game that helps doing aggression while both T and P got stuff to be more aggressive AND defend better. you see...thats what Z lacks right now and blizzard acknowledges. you dont it seems. luckily they do. I didn't say use new units, I said stop using WoL strats. Maybe staying on hatch tech for a long time isn't as viable as it used to be. Maybe be more creative with burrow. It's already on hatch tech. Either way, your entire argument right now sounds like "my old strats don't work, Blizzard give me something else!"
yeah like i said...luckily blizz sees the problem. burrow is much too expensive and too long to be usable. tried a lot of new things and so did pros. it is not worth it, thats why it will be buffed. simple as that.
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On April 24 2013 17:19 convention wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2013 17:14 Terrasmith wrote:On April 24 2013 17:12 ZenithM wrote:On April 24 2013 17:10 Terrasmith wrote:On April 24 2013 17:06 CoR wrote:
also to all the "oracle already sooo strong" flamers here, on high level and that means even mid masters, they get nearly useless ... Until your opponent reacts two seconds too slowly and loses. Lol, 2 seconds is a very long time. At high level that means about 5-10 actions :D Yet I've seen pros lose games (most notably MC) because they reacted to an oracle too slowly. I've seen a lot more pros lose because they reacted faster than that to battle hellion drops. I've also seen a lot of pros (again more than oracles) lose also being faster than that to widow mine drops. You also lose if you react about that speed to baneling drops and mutalisks...
Should I change the number I used to 1 second? Or a 1/2 second? I threw out 2 as an arbitrary number; I don't watch pro games with a stopwatch to time these things. The point I was making is that oracles are not as useless as the person I responded to made them out to be.
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Austria24417 Posts
On April 24 2013 17:23 Terrasmith wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2013 17:19 convention wrote:On April 24 2013 17:14 Terrasmith wrote:On April 24 2013 17:12 ZenithM wrote:On April 24 2013 17:10 Terrasmith wrote:On April 24 2013 17:06 CoR wrote:
also to all the "oracle already sooo strong" flamers here, on high level and that means even mid masters, they get nearly useless ... Until your opponent reacts two seconds too slowly and loses. Lol, 2 seconds is a very long time. At high level that means about 5-10 actions :D Yet I've seen pros lose games (most notably MC) because they reacted to an oracle too slowly. I've seen a lot more pros lose because they reacted faster than that to battle hellion drops. I've also seen a lot of pros (again more than oracles) lose also being faster than that to widow mine drops. You also lose if you react about that speed to baneling drops and mutalisks... Should I change the number I used to 1 second? Or a 1/2 second? I threw out 2 as an arbitrary number; I don't watch pro games with a stopwatch to time these things. The point I was making is that oracles are not as useless as the person I responded to made them out to be.
They aren't useless but they're too expensive for their usefulness past the early game. Static defense, units, etc. shut them down hard.
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On April 24 2013 17:23 DarkLordOlli wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2013 17:23 Terrasmith wrote:On April 24 2013 17:19 convention wrote:On April 24 2013 17:14 Terrasmith wrote:On April 24 2013 17:12 ZenithM wrote:On April 24 2013 17:10 Terrasmith wrote:On April 24 2013 17:06 CoR wrote:
also to all the "oracle already sooo strong" flamers here, on high level and that means even mid masters, they get nearly useless ... Until your opponent reacts two seconds too slowly and loses. Lol, 2 seconds is a very long time. At high level that means about 5-10 actions :D Yet I've seen pros lose games (most notably MC) because they reacted to an oracle too slowly. I've seen a lot more pros lose because they reacted faster than that to battle hellion drops. I've also seen a lot of pros (again more than oracles) lose also being faster than that to widow mine drops. You also lose if you react about that speed to baneling drops and mutalisks... Should I change the number I used to 1 second? Or a 1/2 second? I threw out 2 as an arbitrary number; I don't watch pro games with a stopwatch to time these things. The point I was making is that oracles are not as useless as the person I responded to made them out to be. They aren't useless but they're too expensive for their usefulness past the early game.
And making them cheaper mainly helps them in the early game. That is the entire problem of oracles, it isn't that they can't use some changes, but that you need to do it without making them stronger as gimmick cheese unit.
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On April 24 2013 17:23 DarkLordOlli wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2013 17:23 Terrasmith wrote:On April 24 2013 17:19 convention wrote:On April 24 2013 17:14 Terrasmith wrote:On April 24 2013 17:12 ZenithM wrote:On April 24 2013 17:10 Terrasmith wrote:On April 24 2013 17:06 CoR wrote:
also to all the "oracle already sooo strong" flamers here, on high level and that means even mid masters, they get nearly useless ... Until your opponent reacts two seconds too slowly and loses. Lol, 2 seconds is a very long time. At high level that means about 5-10 actions :D Yet I've seen pros lose games (most notably MC) because they reacted to an oracle too slowly. I've seen a lot more pros lose because they reacted faster than that to battle hellion drops. I've also seen a lot of pros (again more than oracles) lose also being faster than that to widow mine drops. You also lose if you react about that speed to baneling drops and mutalisks... Should I change the number I used to 1 second? Or a 1/2 second? I threw out 2 as an arbitrary number; I don't watch pro games with a stopwatch to time these things. The point I was making is that oracles are not as useless as the person I responded to made them out to be. They aren't useless but they're too expensive for their usefulness past the early game. Static defense, units, etc. shut them down hard.
I could say the exact same thing about terran drops. Static defense and/or a few units in the right place shuts them down hard, too.
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EPT
