EPTBlizzard's Potential Balance Test Map Changes - Page 33
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bongling
41 Posts
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FLUFFYPenguin
Finland25 Posts
On April 24 2013 15:34 Belha wrote: I agree on this, why in the world there must be stupidly fast stuff?? The muta problem is because of the silly hots muta buff. Because insanely fast stuff is insanely more entertaining to watch. As a Protoss player, dealing with the Speedivac is definetely difficult but not impossible. It's rewarding when I completely shut down a Terran harass. Same goes for the Zerg Mutalisks. As Protoss you need to actively scout for the Spire and prepare for a Mutalisk switch accordingly. A lot of people say you need Phoenix to deal with the Mutalisk. Sure, you do. Another way of getting a win Straight off the bat is adding gates and going all-in with what you have (considering a tech switch situation). Works quite beautifully most of the time. | ||
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samurai80
Japan4225 Posts
On April 24 2013 15:13 y0su wrote: I think the point of the speed buff is to allow protoss more options with the oracle in the later game. It'll be safer to track an army and get off an revelation without losing the oracle. Further, using the oracle for emergency detection (envision) will also be easier as the oracle could make it to a base/army slightly quicker. Alternatively some upgrade (from cybernetics core) that follows your suggestion could work well too. This is exactly my thoughts. Depending on how the balance is changed with this, this could be an upgrade at the cyber core or even at the fleet beacon if the early oracle pressure is made too strong. But having this option for the late game would give protoss more occasions to use envision or revelation and variety is always good. Now of course I think it may be a bit early to do this change, especially because protoss are not yet that well used to the new units and abilities/spells, especially because we changed from 2 main spell units (sentry and HT, not taking into account more minor spellcasters as mothership) to 4 with the mothership core and the oracle (or even 5 if we take the void ray prism alignment into account). I think many low level toss are not able to use all of these at the same time efficiently (not enough control groups...), which is why they may not use the oracle in the late game anyway. | ||
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Jerom
Netherlands588 Posts
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samurai80
Japan4225 Posts
On April 24 2013 13:49 omnic wrote: You should read the entire conversation to get the context on what was being discussed. Nobody is saying small engagements are boring. People just don't think gimmicky coin flippy style strategies are a "good" thing. Agreed. I think the hardest is to find a good balance between variety and gimmicky/coin flip strategies. Coin flip strats can be dealt with by improving scouting ability though. | ||
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Decendos
Germany1338 Posts
On April 24 2013 16:12 Jerom wrote: I don't like how they want to give Zerg more all ins. Honestly it feels like there is no race in the game that can all in better than zerg.. lol. this made me laugh. ZvP vs FFE you cant all in, ZvP vs gate expand you could do all ins and pressure...now with planetary nexus you cant. ZvT you could do roach ling (bling) pressure/all in, now with reaper into factory builds you cant. reaper scouts everything and mines + bunker and if you really want to push it a tank with free siege mode deals with everything. so yeah they finally need to give Z something to be able to do GOOD pressure on hatchtech so P and T cant play insanely greedy and cant be punished like it is right now. making burrow 50 50 and lower research time would definetly help so really hope they do that! all Z does right now on hatchtech is defend while P and T can play as greedy as they want. | ||
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convention
United States622 Posts
On April 24 2013 16:06 samurai80 wrote: This is exactly my thoughts. Depending on how the balance is changed with this, this could be an upgrade at the cyber core or even at the fleet beacon if the early oracle pressure is made too strong. But having this option for the late game would give protoss more occasions to use envision or revelation and variety is always good. Now of course I think it may be a bit early to do this change, especially because protoss are not yet that well used to the new units and abilities/spells, especially because we changed from 2 main spell units (sentry and HT, not taking into account more minor spellcasters as mothership) to 4 with the mothership core and the oracle (or even 5 if we take the void ray prism alignment into account). I think many low level toss are not able to use all of these at the same time efficiently (not enough control groups...), which is why they may not use the oracle in the late game anyway. I would argue that having more speed on an oracle helps the pros (who are definitely struggling right now at the very high levels), because they will be able to use the oracle that they were able to keep alive longer. Lower level players will most likely have lost the oracle at some point. | ||
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Terrasmith
47 Posts
About the balance updates. Oracle speed is a bad idea, which seems to be the collective opinion. I'd like to see them used for more than a one-time early game harass, and think that the damage should be slightly decreased while health or shields is buffed, if any changes are made at all. I don't have real opinions on zvz, but it seems like buffing static defense against mutas is the wrong way to go. Mutas are designed to work around static defense, not attack into it, so a buff would either be irrelevant or make mutas useless. All of which has been said before. Burrow as a quicker upgrade would be useful, but it isn't necessary and it might result in a lot of cheese, which I would not like to see, so I'm slightly against it. I've seen a few people asking for longer infestor root times...NO. The infestor root is one of the most imbalanced abilities in the game, because it makes micro and decision making and overall player skill absolutely irrelevant as soon as it hits. (while the projectile aspect makes it harder to land, the ability itself is still unfair to the opposing player). I'd absolutely prefer to see fungal growth completely reworked (or removed) than for it to be rebuffed. I'd prefer to see a hydra AA range buff and/or a corruptor buff. Several people have pointed out how ineffective the corruptor is, and after reading their arguments I'm inclined to agree. I'm still in favor of no patches at the moment, mainly because the game is still changing quickly. What looks like an imbalance could be countered next week by some new strat, which makes patching unnecessary. | ||
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samurai80
Japan4225 Posts
On April 24 2013 16:28 convention wrote: I would argue that having more speed on an oracle helps the pros (who are definitely struggling right now at the very high levels), because they will be able to use the oracle that they were able to keep alive longer. Lower level players will most likely have lost the oracle at some point. It depends, if u really need them in the late game then you can make new ones. Obviously this would be for better positioning with revelation, so buying new ones would be worth it. | ||
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Terrasmith
47 Posts
On April 24 2013 16:23 Decendos wrote: so yeah they finally need to give Z something to be able to do GOOD pressure on hatchtech so P and T cant play insanely greedy and cant be punished like it is right now. making burrow 50 50 and lower research time would definetly help so really hope they do that! all Z does right now on hatchtech is defend while P and T can play as greedy as they want. If by insanely greedy you mean take a really fast natural, then I feel obligated to point out that most zergs respond with an insanely fast third. And except in zvz, this third is very hard to pressure without a major attack from t or p. In other words, this "insanely greedy play" you speak of is an opponent getting a second just before zerg gets a third. Also, baneling busts can still work. Jaedong vs Flash if you need a recent example. | ||
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mihajovics
179 Posts
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Decendos
Germany1338 Posts
On April 24 2013 16:41 Terrasmith wrote: If by insanely greedy you mean take a really fast natural, then I feel obligated to point out that most zergs respond with an insanely fast third. And except in zvz, this third is very hard to pressure without a major attack from t or p. In other words, this "insanely greedy play" you speak of is an opponent getting a second just before zerg gets a third. Also, baneling busts can still work. Jaedong vs Flash if you need a recent example. talking about fast teching with 1 or no sentries ZvP and fast 3 CC ZvT. and obv. blingbusts work vs flash because he doesnt open reaper into factory like most other T. anybody saying burrow on hatchtech is useful right now or saying Z has viable options to pressure/all in on hatchtech...share your builds that no pro seems to know... | ||
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Krymming
Sweden38 Posts
It's a 100 minerals and 2 food for a tanky repair/healable AoE zealot without charge upgrade with 8s less build time. I don't see how it could be good with X unit composition, sometimes I hesitate to use it due to it's efficiency compared to the cost ... said no one ever | ||
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E.L.V.I.S
Belgium458 Posts
On April 24 2013 16:46 mihajovics wrote: they should rather rework the corruptor in my oppinion agreed, and the benshee aswell | ||
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Decendos
Germany1338 Posts
On April 24 2013 16:50 Krymming wrote: I don't understand why people want hellbat nerfs? It's a 100 minerals and 2 food for a tanky repair/healable AoE zealot without charge upgrade with 8s less build time. I don't see how it could be good with X unit composition, sometimes I hesitate to use it due to it's efficiency compared to the cost ... said no one ever :D whats really funny about hellbat drops: it costs 300/100, which means even IF T fucks up and manages to not kill a single drone and just makes the opponent pull drones AND lose medivac + hellbat...the drop was worth it because of the lost mining time. now in a real game you always kill some drones since drones are much slower than speedvac and you also have to build units/static so damage done is always: lost mining time + units/static + some drones...which is just retarded. even with perfect defense more damage is done than the drop costs and T loses everything. LOL. seems like thats what players like DeMuslim mean then they say hellbats are way too cost efficient. | ||
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FLUFFYPenguin
Finland25 Posts
On April 24 2013 16:23 Decendos wrote: lol. this made me laugh. ZvP vs FFE you cant all in, ZvP vs gate expand you could do all ins and pressure...now with planetary nexus you cant. ZvT you could do roach ling (bling) pressure/all in, now with reaper into factory builds you cant. reaper scouts everything and mines + bunker and if you really want to push it a tank with free siege mode deals with everything. So, I guess you have never heard of Speedling/Roach allins off of 2 bases. | ||
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Terrasmith
47 Posts
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Drake
Germany6146 Posts
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Drake
Germany6146 Posts
On April 24 2013 17:03 Terrasmith wrote: Blizzard might not be nerfing the hellbat because they don't mesh well with bio armies. The 4 medivac slots and the no stim means they make the whole army less mobile, and the strongest feature of bio is its mobility. Seeing as mech is never used, the hellbat is kinda stuck, and you don't see it all that often in pro games, except for against mass zealot and in tvt with a meching player. While hellbat drops are still strong, they aren't all that hard to counter with good static defense and a few roaches/mutas/stalkers/marines and marauders. Also, hellbats are easy to kite. still every TERRAN flames about hellbats because tvt is hellbat vs hellbat  | ||
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Decendos
Germany1338 Posts
On April 24 2013 17:01 FLUFFYPenguin wrote: So, I guess you have never heard of Speedling/Roach allins off of 2 bases. do you even read what i write?! i said they work in WoL but DONT WORK vs reaper into factory into fast 3CC openings which is the absolute standard opening ZvT right now! wow...srsly you need to read before answering. it obv still works vs 1 rax FE or CC first since nothing has changed to WoL there but NOT vs reaper into fast 3 CC! | ||
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