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On April 10 2013 23:43 mordk wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 23:41 Plansix wrote:On April 10 2013 23:38 dacimvrl wrote:On April 10 2013 23:34 Plansix wrote:On April 10 2013 23:32 dacimvrl wrote:On April 10 2013 23:24 Plansix wrote:On April 10 2013 23:21 dacimvrl wrote:On April 10 2013 23:18 Plansix wrote:On April 10 2013 23:15 dacimvrl wrote:On April 10 2013 23:11 seoul_kiM wrote:
[quote]
And that is why the pros and Blizzard could give two shits about you and your girlfriend.
I don't understand why people don't want to see the best Starcraft 2 players in the world, regardless of where they are from, play? Exactly. Not to mention Life vs Flash at the last MLG broke viewer numbers. (even when these casuals don't even care to watch or know these 2 players) But there is the thing, there is no reason we can't have both. There is no reason why there can't be a local NA event and Flash vs Life. That is why people are complaining. Every time there looks like there is going to be an NA event for NA players who live in NA, the Koreans come over in mass. MGL did very well when there were no Koerans at it too. There is no reason why we can't have both. See, that's where you are wrong though. We DO have both. There has been a bunch of NA tournaments, filled with like 90% NA players, but nobody watches them. You, for instance, aren't even aware these tournaments exist........ so I don't even know what you are talking about.. I am sorry, do any of the EG players or teams I care about play in those? Are they sponsored and produced as a reasonable level. A bunch of amateur events are neat, but not thats not what we are talking about. There is no reason why we can't have a NA GSL that is off line, just like the GSL. Course. EG Masters, MSI masters, MLG exhibition matches, IPL showdowns last year, Day9's King of Beta tournaments..etc., and they are all very watchable. you ever watched any of them? Watched a whole bunch of the EG masters, MLG exhibitions and IPL show matches. Even King of the Beta. But I want more. I want an NA GSL that is offline and does not provide excepts for Korean players who want to qualify online. And I want it sooner, rather than later. So you are already aware of these tournaments and you asked if there's any? You keep contradicting yourself..... Like someone already mentioned, you simply cannot fill an entire roster of NA players in that 32 man format, I don't think I can even list 10 notable NA players off the top of my head. You might as well just watch CSL. Those aren't tournament. One is a team league and the others are show matches. And you do know the WCS is going to be offline in the near future. From what Incontrol was saying on Inside the Game, as soon as Blizzard can make it offline. After that, the Korean players will have to live in NA to play in the events, which at that point I don't care. But this whole thing where Korean players get to qualify online for their WCS, while everyone else needs to come and live in Korean for their WSC is BS. And the reason you don't know about 10 notable NA players is the same reason I can't name 10 notable EU players. You guys watch too little starcraft, I can name 10 of each ezpz, like 30 KRs and I'm not from any of these continents.
Neat trick? I have a co-worker who can name the entire NFL draft line up for this year and what round picks they are. He doesn't really brag about it, though.
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On April 10 2013 23:40 opterown wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 23:38 Ravensong170 wrote:
Also this kills proleague hopes for EG-TL. If all these players are coming to NA just to beat the easier NA players.... Eventually just going to be Koreans playing in the NA regionals.
I dunno if that's what the had in mind. But this is not going to grow esports. Catz said it and so have others. SC2 will be best if all regions were equally good. (meaning as good as Korea). But right now that isn't the case. And just importing koreans won't grow the scene. It will kill it for lesser players. i don't see how this affects EG-TL in PL, they only need to jet off for a weekend tournament every few months haha
Games are weekly. How can they fly their whole roster to Korea and back every single week?
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Vatican City State582 Posts
On April 10 2013 23:39 JustPassingBy wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 23:38 dacimvrl wrote:On April 10 2013 23:34 Plansix wrote:On April 10 2013 23:32 dacimvrl wrote:On April 10 2013 23:24 Plansix wrote:On April 10 2013 23:21 dacimvrl wrote:On April 10 2013 23:18 Plansix wrote:On April 10 2013 23:15 dacimvrl wrote:On April 10 2013 23:11 seoul_kiM wrote:On April 10 2013 23:04 Plansix wrote:
[quote]
My girlfriend and I don't really care about most the the Korean players over members of EG that are in NA. There are exceptions, like Liquid Hero, MKP and Crank. But the rest, I could give two shits about. And that is why the pros and Blizzard could give two shits about you and your girlfriend. I don't understand why people don't want to see the best Starcraft 2 players in the world, regardless of where they are from, play? Exactly. Not to mention Life vs Flash at the last MLG broke viewer numbers. (even when these casuals don't even care to watch or know these 2 players) But there is the thing, there is no reason we can't have both. There is no reason why there can't be a local NA event and Flash vs Life. That is why people are complaining. Every time there looks like there is going to be an NA event for NA players who live in NA, the Koreans come over in mass. MGL did very well when there were no Koerans at it too. There is no reason why we can't have both. See, that's where you are wrong though. We DO have both. There has been a bunch of NA tournaments, filled with like 90% NA players, but nobody watches them. You, for instance, aren't even aware these tournaments exist........ so I don't even know what you are talking about.. I am sorry, do any of the EG players or teams I care about play in those? Are they sponsored and produced as a reasonable level. A bunch of amateur events are neat, but not thats not what we are talking about. There is no reason why we can't have a NA GSL that is off line, just like the GSL. Course. EG Masters, MSI masters, MLG exhibition matches, IPL showdowns last year, Day9's King of Beta tournaments..etc., and they are all very watchable. you ever watched any of them? Watched a whole bunch of the EG masters, MLG exhibitions and IPL show matches. Even King of the Beta. But I want more. I want an NA GSL that is offline and does not provide excepts for Korean players who want to qualify online. And I want it sooner, rather than later. So you are already aware of these tournaments and you asked if there's any? You keep contradicting yourself..... Like someone already mentioned, you simply cannot fill an entire roster of NA players in that 32 man format, I don't think I can even list 10 notable NA players off the top of my head. You might as well just watch CSL. To be fair, I cannot as well, but that is because I am not part of the NA community. I can probably list the names of two dozen european players the average joe on NA has never heard of though.
For the record, there's a lot more notable euro players, and I can easily list 10 or 12, but my point still stands in NA.
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On April 10 2013 23:33 mordk wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 23:29 Sjokola wrote:
I don't understand all the people who say they only want to see Koreans play because they are better. I wonder if these people don't support any local sports teams. Do they only watch Champions league? To me sports is all about supporting your local team/players and the stories and rivalries between the players.
In the Netherlands we have our football (soccer) league team FC Utrecht. It doesn't really matter to them how the season goes as long as they beat Ajax. Both things are valid. I love my local Universidad de Chile team, but I sure as hell watch Champions League matches every single season. I love United, but I certainly will watch RM's match on semifinals, even if United got eliminated by them. I love my country Chile, but there's notthing in the world that will stop me from watching World Cup finals.
That's actually my point. I only pointed this side out because it's not heard much here. Of course everybody likes to watch the best of the best compete. But the stadiums all around the world are filled every week with fans supporting their local club.
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On April 10 2013 23:38 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 23:29 Sjokola wrote:
I don't understand all the people who say they only want to see Koreans play because they are better. I wonder if these people don't support any local sports teams. Do they only watch Champions league? To me sports is all about supporting your local team/players and the stories and rivalries between the players.
In the Netherlands we have our football (soccer) league team FC Utrecht. It doesn't really matter to them how the season goes as long as they beat Ajax. That's great. And Minigun will have plenty of opportunities to show he can beat Vibe (or NOT). But Utrecht fills a stadium of about 30.000 seats weekly (I believe) plus however many more tune in to watch the match on paytv. Minigun probably has about 500 fans (and a LOT of Amerikuh fans when he plays a foreigner). Nobody outside of those fans is interested in his game against Vibe (well, add Vibe's fans to that as well of course). That is NOT enough to support a player and a tournament consisting largely of this kind of game will not be viewed by enough people, sponsors will complain and eSports hurts. However, when Ajax plays against Real Madrid suddenly Englishmen and Germans are tuning into the champions league. Yes, Ajax invariably gets stomped, but suddenly FAR more people are interested despite being neither a real supporter of Ajax, Real Madrid or even belonging to either of those nations. The same happens in SC2: replace Vibe with Hero and suddenly Minigun vs. Hero will attract viewers, which attracts sponsors. Sure, 99% of those games will end in Minigun getting stomped, but the 1% where an upset happens gain Minigun FAR more exposure and fans than playing against Vibe any number of times.
Well it depends on what the purpose of this system is. If it is to place the best NA vs. the best EU vs. the best KR then Blizzard failed horribly. If it's to allow for the most possible best players (Koreans), then they've done very well. It's going to be all Koreans with a few EU guys sprinkled in. Whether that's good or bad is certainly in the eye of the beholder but I can't imagine this is what Blizzard envisioned for this...
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On April 10 2013 23:35 mongmong wrote:
WCS Europe is going to be won by LiquidSnute. I bet this guy is going to dethrone Stephano and claim no.1 foreigner title by defeating mvp,mc and naniwa on his way to WCS Eu championship!.
Haha, i don't think Snute will survive to the European protoss especially Naniwa : it's a GSL format and Naniwa is trully a beast at that, i think he will win the first season, i'm betting on him.
Even so I would love to be wrong and see HeRoMaRinE win that shit.
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This is insane, no more reason to purchase a gom ticket as far as i'm concerned.
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On April 10 2013 23:44 caradoc wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 23:40 opterown wrote:On April 10 2013 23:38 Ravensong170 wrote:
Also this kills proleague hopes for EG-TL. If all these players are coming to NA just to beat the easier NA players.... Eventually just going to be Koreans playing in the NA regionals.
I dunno if that's what the had in mind. But this is not going to grow esports. Catz said it and so have others. SC2 will be best if all regions were equally good. (meaning as good as Korea). But right now that isn't the case. And just importing koreans won't grow the scene. It will kill it for lesser players. i don't see how this affects EG-TL in PL, they only need to jet off for a weekend tournament every few months haha Games are weekly. How can they fly their whole roster to Korea and back every single week?
Season one is mostly on-line.
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So with the 20 top Koreans flooding into the NA scene for WCS it makes me really nervous... WCS 2012 was my favorite event of last year and i'm not just talking about the finals. I loved being able to follow all the different qualifiers that led up to the Regional finals for each region. The NA qualifiers and regional/National finals really looked like it was helping to grow the scene by allowing up and coming talent to test their skills and get more well known within the scene.
This new format doesn't do that at all. We will still see great games from players, I'm sure the finals will be an amazing all Korean event with the one-two foreigners but with this post and Genna's comment So without speaking to the team owners or the players, Blizzard implemented it's vision for this new WCS format and players have been given an unreasonably short period of time in order to declare their choice of region with little to no information being provided.... It is really showing that Blizzard is set in their idea of what they want to do and not as concerned with the players/managers at this moment in time.
I'm hoping that will change with season 2 since they are trying to rush everything out with little to no information provided. I guess for now the only thing we can do is wait and watch and see how the EU and NA scene is effected by this.
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On April 10 2013 23:43 Xoronius wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 22:50 JustPassingBy wrote:
I bet Goody is disappointed that MVP decided to compete in Europe, while Nestea moves to NA. Well, he has a 100% Win-ratio against GSL-winning-terrans, so he probably does´nt mind. In general I think Europe is going to be fine, top euros can compete with koreans on neutral ground; if the games get played on EU Server, players like MaNa/Stephano/LucifroN/ some others should be favored against pretty much everyone playing from KR.
Are you sure? hint: http://www.sc2charts.net/en/matches/15480-mvp-vs-goody
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On April 10 2013 23:37 Enchanted wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 23:26 Acrofales wrote:On April 10 2013 23:09 CoR wrote:On April 10 2013 23:08 Acrofales wrote:On April 10 2013 22:47 Benjamin99 wrote:On April 10 2013 22:44 dacimvrl wrote:On April 10 2013 22:42 Plansix wrote:On April 10 2013 22:40 dacimvrl wrote:On April 10 2013 22:34 Plansix wrote:On April 10 2013 22:31 mordk wrote:
[quote]
One tournament hardly means anything. For every case I can remember except WCS EU finals, tournaments heavily benefited in terms of viewer counts with the presence of KR players. No one is saying a few Korean players wouldn't be fine. Polt and Violet would be totally ok. But the top 16 shouldn't be Korean for an NA league, where the rules for NA players trying for the Korean league require them to be in Korea. Viewers or not, it is BS for the any player in NA who has been putting in any serious effort. The koreans are comming here for easy money because they are allowed qualify and play online. If they were required to play off line, in a studio, we should very few, if any. I welcome this. I honestly would rather watch top 16 filled w/ decent koreans like on the list. If I really wanted to watch some NA/EU master/gm noobs play, I would just watch my own replays... Yeah, well half my friends and girlfriend disagree. They couldn't give two shits about Korean players except MKP and Liquid Hero. That is like 10 viewer that will not be interested in this WCS if it is all Koreans. awesome, a whopping total of 10 viewers!! like Acrofales said, who would rather watch minigun vs catz when you can watch herO vs aLive. Please take you trolling elsewhere may I suggest Reddit On April 10 2013 22:46 Tobblish wrote:On April 10 2013 22:42 Plansix wrote:On April 10 2013 22:40 dacimvrl wrote:On April 10 2013 22:34 Plansix wrote:On April 10 2013 22:31 mordk wrote:
[quote]
One tournament hardly means anything. For every case I can remember except WCS EU finals, tournaments heavily benefited in terms of viewer counts with the presence of KR players. No one is saying a few Korean players wouldn't be fine. Polt and Violet would be totally ok. But the top 16 shouldn't be Korean for an NA league, where the rules for NA players trying for the Korean league require them to be in Korea. Viewers or not, it is BS for the any player in NA who has been putting in any serious effort. The koreans are comming here for easy money because they are allowed qualify and play online. If they were required to play off line, in a studio, we should very few, if any. I welcome this. I honestly would rather watch top 16 filled w/ decent koreans like on the list. If I really wanted to watch some NA/EU master/gm noobs play, I would just watch my own replays... Yeah, well half my friends and girlfriend disagree. They couldn't give two shits about Korean players except MKP and Liquid Hero. That is like 10 viewer that will not be interested in this WCS if it is all Koreans. I wonder why those 10 people don't like to watch Koreans instead of Americans. Racists people I bet. Yes 90% fans of Starcraft are all racist you got us. On April 10 2013 22:47 plasemeious wrote:On April 10 2013 22:33 EleanorRIgby wrote:
wtf with this region mean nothing, it is not WCS NA. They should just region lock it or the NA scene will shrink rather then grow. People are already tired of watching korean vs korean everything and want some country/continent only tournaments. I never understood this. I always preferred to see the better players playing as opposed to worse foreigners playing Ask a Malaga fan why he don't support Barcelona in football when they clearly got the best players. Welcome to the world of sports Are there Malaga fans outside of Malaga? Except for the economic fugitives from Spain's impoverished south, I doubt it. Yet Barcelona is one of the most popular football clubs in the world. If Malaga plays against Levante, only Spaniards care (and ony a few of them). If Barcelona plays against Man U. half of the football-loving world tunes in (from Brazil to Japan). I wonder which market Blizzard is more interested in? Now of course you can say that Barcelona and Man U. only have that extraordinary selection of talent BECAUSE of teams like Malaga (or more likely Flamengos or Boca Juniors), but then we enter into another realm of discussion: how should eSports be promoted and encouraged to grow. Blizzard clearly thinks that putting the Barcelonas and Man U.'s in the spotlight will encourage more tournaments to give the Levantes of this world a chance, because sponsors are attracted, etc. etc. (trickle-down effect). People here seem to think that the grass-roots approach is better. I don't know, but I am sure that Blizzard has some clever market analysts working on it and they came up with this model, so lets try trusting them, hey? In the meantime, we get to watch great games instead of a failure where the only exciting question is whether Idra bombs out in the first or second round. AND STILL, as malaga fan you dont care anyone as much as malaga and so is it with pros, you have "your" players you love and like them more, if spanish league says "no more league just showmatches between topteams and then more championleague games etc" its good for alot guys alot love top games but your pissed as fuck ... ps: as bvb fan i love malaga quotes xD And that's where the opinions differ. You seem to think it is Blizzard's job to create national leagues. Blizzard sees it as their job to create the Champions League. They tried the national league approach last year and it clearly didn't work as well as they had hoped. In the Spanish league there are enough fans of the local teams to sustain them at a professional level. Unfortunately for eSports, there are not (yet) enough fans of the Miniguns, Vibes and Insurs of this world to sustain them at a professional level. So now Blizzard has decided to promote eSports in a different way. Whether it will work, we don't know yet. But I am quite confident that with players like Hero, aLive and Nestea in the American WCS, it will have more vieweres than the WCS NA event last year (which was a complete failure). What more could they want ? WCS EU was like the most watched tournament last year. How the hell can you do better then that ?
While WCS NA was a complete failure. Yes, it was scheduled at the same time as MLG and that didn't help it, but I honestly doubt that if it had had its own separate weekend people would have tuned in for Vibe vs. Imgur. What names were there at WCS NA that attract viewers? Huk, Idra and Scarlett (she was starting to gain popularity around then).
Compare that to WCS EU that had Stephano, Grubby, Demuslim, White-Ra, Nerchio, Ret, Thorzain, Mana, Vortix, Lucifron and even second-rate Euro players like Socke or Happy gather more attention and viewers than Insur or Vibe (arguably top US players).
Also, there were a TON of smaller tournaments leading up to the WCS EU that had too few viewers to be worthwhile. And we're not even talking about WCS South America, or WCS Oceania which I doubt you even remember happened!
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On April 10 2013 23:33 dtz wrote:
well last year's WCS NA is the event you are looking for i guess. We do have them and a bunch of new bloods got high placing in that tournament. Even favourites like Idra and Scarlett placed highly. Huk only placed 8th which was an upset.
That's the problem though. There are not enough interesting players even in NA itself to have a 32-man tournament the tournament was really forgettable and deemed 2nd rate I think many people don't really care watching your favourite EG player beating Insur or State
To have an NA GSL , you need more high profile players like Idra, Huk, Scarlett. How did these people get their fame? by beating Koreans or by doing well in Koreans-dominated tournaments. It seems like Koreans are necesarry for the growth of the scene especially in NA because the viewers have very little interest in local players.
Not much of an upset when his practice schedule has been sub-par. I don't consider Greg to be a favorite either for some time due to his new stance/template on practice but he did get some results in the finals. As for a 32 NA tournament. I agree, there isn't enough talent out there to keep my interest at least but I do want to push organizations to have open qualifiers like the last WCS because the last time we did it. They guys who were actually performing well at the time? Yeah, they got the proper seeding. If you went down the line of all the other tournaments happening at that time. They were qualifying for TLS, MLG, etc. They players who got there deserved to be there. I would have it no other way to be frank.
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I think everyone is forgetting some facts here. Blizzard wants for these regional plays to be all offline, however, currently the infrastructure doesn't exist in NA or EU at the same level as KR. To be fair to all parties this year has online qualifiers, since you can't expect for players and entire teams to immediately get a new team house etc. established in NA and EU. Such endeavors take a lot of time, negotiation and money.
The WCS tournaments and qualifiers are intended to eventually become all offline like the GSL, and in 2014 I think we will see ESL and MLG begin to facilitate the much needed static infrastructure to do this. When the regional WCS become all offline the Koreans and Korean teams (only Incredible Miracle has so far dedicated players, all other teams are foreign owned) can consider permanently relocating to another region. Once this begins happening the level of play in regions should start improving further.
I honestly don't know how people can expect immediate results. I'm sure that Blizzard, more than anyone, is scared of alienating and losing the foreign scenes and fan bases. I mean, they practically state this. I'm also sure that this year's format is not their ideal setting but it was the best that could happen considering how many partners are involved, not to mention how some of them strongly disliked each other.
Step One: Introduce regional leagues that should one day be equal. Players and teams are, between regions, too disparate in skill and organization. Diluting is needed. How to achieve this?
Step Two: Woo Korean teams and infrastructure with money that is not completely centralized in Seoul. Get them accustomed to the prospect that relocating is feasible. If the initial region locks are too severe then regions will become too insulated and will actually hurt long term growth.
Thus moderate region locks are implemented with online qualifiers. Korean players and teams aren't so rich that they can buy a team house in some random city in EU or NA. On top of this there is no set location for offline events like GOM in Seoul. What incentive is there when you get a house in Poland and the tournament location is in France or Germany, or elsewhere? The Korean scene is possible because everything is centralized in one city.
Step Three: Build partnerships with MLG and ESL where eventually static studios are formed in set cities. Once this happens each region will have their Seoul, so to speak of. All team houses, players, and tournaments connected with WCS (or only WCS) can be centralized to one location in each region. Once this part forms:
Step Four: Regional WCS events become all offline. Select few Koreans might move (excluding foreign team Koreans) to new regions and transfer team houses. These few Korean teams aren't stupid, they know where their advantages come from and I highly doubt the coaches think that just because their players are Korean they are naturally better. They know that it's their methods, not nationality or race. At this stage it might become more reasonable that Korean (now formerly, in fact) teams would scout for talented players in the region (considering Visa and permanent living, and many other factors). Major's dream was to be able to play in a Kespa team and I think this sort of dream will become much more realistic for future and current players who have the ambition and dedication. Over time the formerly Korean teams will begin to initiate more and more regional players and provide them with the environment that has been lacking so severely. This is not to say the it wouldn't be possible without them but these teams have so many years of experience that it would help to jump start the process.
Another major advantage, already mentioned, is the centralized location. I think as the dust settles teams will start to realize what a boon this is. As EU and NA get those centralized locations it will become much more realistic to form team houses in the city where most of the money is. Right now tournaments outside of KR are all over the place, and if you do have a team house you will still spend a lot on travel expenses. Not to mention the stresses and inconveniences it imposes. Everyone is raging at how the NA scene is dead, but imagine this for a moment:
Late 2013/Early 2014, MLG establishes permanent SC2 WCS studio in LA/San Fran, all games are now offline. Since all of EG and TL have relocated it would mean that all the players would either have to go back to Korea or move to existing houses. This means all these great players and Coach Park would be under the same roof as, presumably, your favorite EG/TL non-Korean players. Imagine for a moment IdrA, Thorzain, HuK, Stephano living with all these great players and coach Park. Since EG and TL are foreign owned and now have a proper team house with a proper coach, they can begin to recruit tons of talent in the region. Though this scenario is imagined and the date overly optimistic, the probability of such a scenario becomes very possible with the transitional year that we have now.
Or what if ROOT creates a house and engages in negotiation with an eSF or Kespa team? The NA team can provide the facilities and the KR team can bring the knowledge and infrastructure. Both parties would benefit immensely where ROOT can learn, recruit and improve dramatically. Sure the Koreans might be leading the pack, but over time the mutual agreement transfers a lot of the knowledge and methods that were previously, for all intents and purposes, completely exclusive. Maybe the partnership lasts a year, or two? How much could the management of a foreign team learn over this time? When they part ways could they apply it later on and could they build stronger rosters and improve the competitiveness of their current ones?
Do these steps happen over night? No. I read CatZ's post and there is much to be agreed about in there, but at the same time I see so many flaws, especially in his argument about long term growth; which I find quite frankly short sighted. Long term is not a year, or two, or three. It's 10 years or more. It's not about ROOT, or TL, or any current team. It's about that future, in 2030, or 2040 where e-sports is (hopefully) a globally recognized form of competition with lots of funding and public support. Blizzard, though I'm not certain about this, might already acknowledge that the gap between Korean teams and full foreign teams might be too large, and that this generation is possibly lost (I'm being overly pessimistic here). But by inviting Korean teams and infrastructure they will build a stage for players in EU and NA many years down the road to join teams that are descended from Korean team houses and all the benefits that entail to these future careers.
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Don't care for all the drama but WCS NA just turned into something I actually want to watch now. The only bummer is any of these players missing out on GSL/OSL.
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On April 10 2013 23:45 dacimvrl wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 23:39 JustPassingBy wrote:On April 10 2013 23:38 dacimvrl wrote:On April 10 2013 23:34 Plansix wrote:On April 10 2013 23:32 dacimvrl wrote:On April 10 2013 23:24 Plansix wrote:On April 10 2013 23:21 dacimvrl wrote:On April 10 2013 23:18 Plansix wrote:On April 10 2013 23:15 dacimvrl wrote:On April 10 2013 23:11 seoul_kiM wrote:
[quote]
And that is why the pros and Blizzard could give two shits about you and your girlfriend.
I don't understand why people don't want to see the best Starcraft 2 players in the world, regardless of where they are from, play? Exactly. Not to mention Life vs Flash at the last MLG broke viewer numbers. (even when these casuals don't even care to watch or know these 2 players) But there is the thing, there is no reason we can't have both. There is no reason why there can't be a local NA event and Flash vs Life. That is why people are complaining. Every time there looks like there is going to be an NA event for NA players who live in NA, the Koreans come over in mass. MGL did very well when there were no Koerans at it too. There is no reason why we can't have both. See, that's where you are wrong though. We DO have both. There has been a bunch of NA tournaments, filled with like 90% NA players, but nobody watches them. You, for instance, aren't even aware these tournaments exist........ so I don't even know what you are talking about.. I am sorry, do any of the EG players or teams I care about play in those? Are they sponsored and produced as a reasonable level. A bunch of amateur events are neat, but not thats not what we are talking about. There is no reason why we can't have a NA GSL that is off line, just like the GSL. Course. EG Masters, MSI masters, MLG exhibition matches, IPL showdowns last year, Day9's King of Beta tournaments..etc., and they are all very watchable. you ever watched any of them? Watched a whole bunch of the EG masters, MLG exhibitions and IPL show matches. Even King of the Beta. But I want more. I want an NA GSL that is offline and does not provide excepts for Korean players who want to qualify online. And I want it sooner, rather than later. So you are already aware of these tournaments and you asked if there's any? You keep contradicting yourself..... Like someone already mentioned, you simply cannot fill an entire roster of NA players in that 32 man format, I don't think I can even list 10 notable NA players off the top of my head. You might as well just watch CSL. To be fair, I cannot as well, but that is because I am not part of the NA community. I can probably list the names of two dozen european players the average joe on NA has never heard of though. For the record, there's a lot more notable euro players, and I can easily list 10 or 12, but my point still stands in NA.
Yeah, but all the EU players I would say I hadn't heard of and were not good enough to justify a slot, just like you would do for the 10-12 NA players I would name off. The point is that both regions have talent, but the Koreans are often given exceptions to make sure they can compete in tournaments. There is room for an NA and EU league that is held off line and that players have to come in person to play.
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On April 10 2013 23:35 Cattlecruiser wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 23:01 Benjamin99 wrote:On April 10 2013 23:01 Cattlecruiser wrote:NA looks like there are bit too many Korean B teamers in it. However, this isn't the death of the NA scene like many seem to think. The number of Koreans is a direct result of using GSL Code A & S for WCS Korea. If Korean players outside of Code A &S had the chance to qualify for the current season it would be a different story. Whatever the reason, this isn't what Blizzard imagined when they made the structure. On April 10 2013 22:20 Benjamin99 wrote:On April 10 2013 22:15 syllogism wrote:On April 10 2013 22:07 Champloo wrote:
This is so stupid, why didn't they just make it based on nationality like the last WCS?
At least Europe will have mainly European players in it, but NA is not even worth watching for me now, and I would definitely be pissed if I was a NA pro player. That's funny, because I was thinking that NA WCS wouldn't be worth watching with the region lock in place. In addition, NA pro players have no right to be pissed given that all Blizzard is doing is adding a few leagues with big prize pools; it is objectively an improvement from their pespective. Only for code S Koreans the structure may be worse than the current one. Well I'm sure the NA players is happy that you syllogism and you elitist attitude is going to watch. ps I´´ll take 1 casual fan over 10 of you any day of the week because casual fans grows the scene while you just spawn elitist crap and complain about how bad the casters are. Hahaha. Wow. "elitist" lol. Lmao. I'm not a Republican or conservative in any sense, but your so called "anti-elitist" thing is the most laughable thing I've ever read. Should I step on my shoes and give them to you? Maybe you should have my cars and my house you can live in that too. I'm sorry I can appreciate higher level of play, and don't think watching players marginally better than me is entertaining. Yea because that attitude really grew the western BW scene right? I'm wondering how many casual fans and women actually saw BW and no lolita dolls doesn't count Starcraft is never going to be a "sport" like Football, Baseball, Soccer, or Hockey. Blizzard/any tournament is never going to be the NFL, MLB, NBA, or NHL. Sorry I don't speak geek, but wtf is a lolita doll? NA scene is stronger than in BW. Mainly due to western teams buying eSF players instead of KeSPA hoarding all the talent. Young talent will come out from NA/EU but it will never be the quality or the quantity of Koreans. It is like other countries trying to catch up to the US in American Football or Basketball. I guess elitist attitude and refining the game for bigger, stronger, and faster players to thrive in "ruined" those games too. LMFAO. ![[image loading]](http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lr66auQjDJ1qit63to1_500.jpg)
I remember when the Dream Team was struggling to beat other countries when it was purely USA against the world. The world most certainly caught up, but the USA have shown that they can play a team game in the last Olympics to withstand any upset. o;
Oh and as for the USA scene in BW. There were a lot of players I could name that could give guys a run for their money. Not to say USA was a real super power in the scene, but they put up a really good fight. USA had a pretty decent pool of players to pick from.
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Lol Blizzard screwed up. Look at all those Koreans in NA...
Man this is sad day for GSL. There's gonna be a lot less epic matches now. No more IM_MVP T_T
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Vatican City State582 Posts
On April 10 2013 23:41 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 23:38 dacimvrl wrote:On April 10 2013 23:34 Plansix wrote:On April 10 2013 23:32 dacimvrl wrote:On April 10 2013 23:24 Plansix wrote:On April 10 2013 23:21 dacimvrl wrote:On April 10 2013 23:18 Plansix wrote:On April 10 2013 23:15 dacimvrl wrote:On April 10 2013 23:11 seoul_kiM wrote:On April 10 2013 23:04 Plansix wrote:
[quote]
My girlfriend and I don't really care about most the the Korean players over members of EG that are in NA. There are exceptions, like Liquid Hero, MKP and Crank. But the rest, I could give two shits about. And that is why the pros and Blizzard could give two shits about you and your girlfriend. I don't understand why people don't want to see the best Starcraft 2 players in the world, regardless of where they are from, play? Exactly. Not to mention Life vs Flash at the last MLG broke viewer numbers. (even when these casuals don't even care to watch or know these 2 players) But there is the thing, there is no reason we can't have both. There is no reason why there can't be a local NA event and Flash vs Life. That is why people are complaining. Every time there looks like there is going to be an NA event for NA players who live in NA, the Koreans come over in mass. MGL did very well when there were no Koerans at it too. There is no reason why we can't have both. See, that's where you are wrong though. We DO have both. There has been a bunch of NA tournaments, filled with like 90% NA players, but nobody watches them. You, for instance, aren't even aware these tournaments exist........ so I don't even know what you are talking about.. I am sorry, do any of the EG players or teams I care about play in those? Are they sponsored and produced as a reasonable level. A bunch of amateur events are neat, but not thats not what we are talking about. There is no reason why we can't have a NA GSL that is off line, just like the GSL. Course. EG Masters, MSI masters, MLG exhibition matches, IPL showdowns last year, Day9's King of Beta tournaments..etc., and they are all very watchable. you ever watched any of them? Watched a whole bunch of the EG masters, MLG exhibitions and IPL show matches. Even King of the Beta. But I want more. I want an NA GSL that is offline and does not provide excepts for Korean players who want to qualify online. And I want it sooner, rather than later. So you are already aware of these tournaments and you asked if there's any? You keep contradicting yourself..... Like someone already mentioned, you simply cannot fill an entire roster of NA players in that 32 man format, I don't think I can even list 10 notable NA players off the top of my head. You might as well just watch CSL. Those aren't tournament. One is a team league and the others are show matches. And you do know the WCS is going to be offline in the near future. From what Incontrol was saying on Inside the Game, as soon as Blizzard can make it offline. After that, the Korean players will have to live in NA to play in the events, which at that point I don't care. But this whole thing where Korean players get to qualify online for their WCS, while everyone else needs to come and live in Korean for their WSC is BS. And the reason you don't know about 10 notable NA players is the same reason I can't name 10 notable EU players.
Last time I checked, team leagues are still tournaments.. Like I said, there's just not enough viewers to even sustain a GSL-esque league in NA, because the majority of people would obviously rather watch GSL than NA players vs NA players. Sure casual viewers prefer that, but there just aren't as many casual viewers to sustain that. And WCS won't be an offline-only tournament. Blizzard said that publicly in the interview yesterday, so whatever Incontrol said was obviously wrong.
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http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/1c1slt/my_views_on_wcsregional_based_leagues_region/
This Post from catz was linked somewhere earlier. But I think it should be read because it really articulates what this is going to do to the scene.
Also the quote from CLG's manager is pretty important. NA scene is losing money from this.....
<<<< Won't be watching WCS NA after all the Foreigner's are knocked out.
EDIT: Won't watch WCS EU after that either. But Europe is more likely to have some foreigners in it for the long haul.
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Vatican City State582 Posts
On April 10 2013 23:52 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 23:45 dacimvrl wrote:On April 10 2013 23:39 JustPassingBy wrote:On April 10 2013 23:38 dacimvrl wrote:On April 10 2013 23:34 Plansix wrote:On April 10 2013 23:32 dacimvrl wrote:On April 10 2013 23:24 Plansix wrote:On April 10 2013 23:21 dacimvrl wrote:On April 10 2013 23:18 Plansix wrote:On April 10 2013 23:15 dacimvrl wrote:
[quote]
Exactly. Not to mention Life vs Flash at the last MLG broke viewer numbers. (even when these casuals don't even care to watch or know these 2 players) But there is the thing, there is no reason we can't have both. There is no reason why there can't be a local NA event and Flash vs Life. That is why people are complaining. Every time there looks like there is going to be an NA event for NA players who live in NA, the Koreans come over in mass. MGL did very well when there were no Koerans at it too. There is no reason why we can't have both. See, that's where you are wrong though. We DO have both. There has been a bunch of NA tournaments, filled with like 90% NA players, but nobody watches them. You, for instance, aren't even aware these tournaments exist........ so I don't even know what you are talking about.. I am sorry, do any of the EG players or teams I care about play in those? Are they sponsored and produced as a reasonable level. A bunch of amateur events are neat, but not thats not what we are talking about. There is no reason why we can't have a NA GSL that is off line, just like the GSL. Course. EG Masters, MSI masters, MLG exhibition matches, IPL showdowns last year, Day9's King of Beta tournaments..etc., and they are all very watchable. you ever watched any of them? Watched a whole bunch of the EG masters, MLG exhibitions and IPL show matches. Even King of the Beta. But I want more. I want an NA GSL that is offline and does not provide excepts for Korean players who want to qualify online. And I want it sooner, rather than later. So you are already aware of these tournaments and you asked if there's any? You keep contradicting yourself..... Like someone already mentioned, you simply cannot fill an entire roster of NA players in that 32 man format, I don't think I can even list 10 notable NA players off the top of my head. You might as well just watch CSL. To be fair, I cannot as well, but that is because I am not part of the NA community. I can probably list the names of two dozen european players the average joe on NA has never heard of though. For the record, there's a lot more notable euro players, and I can easily list 10 or 12, but my point still stands in NA. Yeah, but all the EU players I would say I hadn't heard of and were not good enough to justify a slot, just like you would do for the 10-12 NA players I would name off. The point is that both regions have talent, but the Koreans are often given exceptions to make sure they can compete in tournaments. There is room for an NA and EU league that is held off line and that players have to come in person to play.
well, I am pretty familiar with the NA scene, so try me, try to even list 32 NA players. It's a challenge!
There is definitely room, but is it sustainable from a business standpoint, that's the question.
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EPT
