Koreans selecting WCS NA/EU List - Page 57

On April 10 2013 23:50 BeyondCtrL wrote:
I think everyone is forgetting some facts here. Blizzard wants for these regional plays to be all offline, however, currently the infrastructure doesn't exist in NA or EU at the same level as KR. To be fair to all parties this year has online qualifiers, since you can't expect for players and entire teams to immediately get a new team house etc. established in NA and EU. Such endeavors take a lot of time, negotiation and money.

The WCS tournaments and qualifiers are intended to eventually become all offline like the GSL, and in 2014 I think we will see ESL and MLG begin to facilitate the much needed static infrastructure to do this. When the regional WCS become all offline the Koreans and Korean teams (only Incredible Miracle has so far dedicated players, all other teams are foreign owned) can consider permanently relocating to another region. Once this begins happening the level of play in regions should start improving further.

I honestly don't know how people can expect immediate results. I'm sure that Blizzard, more than anyone, is scared of alienating and losing the foreign scenes and fan bases. I mean, they practically state this. I'm also sure that this year's format is not their ideal setting but it was the best that could happen considering how many partners are involved, not to mention how some of them strongly disliked each other.

Step One: Introduce regional leagues that should one day be equal. Players and teams are, between regions, too disparate in skill and organization. Diluting is needed. How to achieve this?

Step Two: Woo Korean teams and infrastructure with money that is not completely centralized in Seoul. Get them accustomed to the prospect that relocating is feasible. If the initial region locks are too severe then regions will become too insulated and will actually hurt long term growth.

Thus moderate region locks are implemented with online qualifiers. Korean players and teams aren't so rich that they can buy a team house in some random city in EU or NA. On top of this there is no set location for offline events like GOM in Seoul. What incentive is there when you get a house in Poland and the tournament location is in France or Germany, or elsewhere? The Korean scene is possible because everything is centralized in one city.

Step Three: Build partnerships with MLG and ESL where eventually static studios are formed in set cities. Once this happens each region will have their Seoul, so to speak of. All team houses, players, and tournaments connected with WCS (or only WCS) can be centralized to one location in each region. Once this part forms:

Step Four: Regional WCS events become all offline. Select few Koreans might move (excluding foreign team Koreans) to new regions and transfer team houses. These few Korean teams aren't stupid, they know where their advantages come from and I highly doubt the coaches think that just because their players are Korean they are naturally better. They know that it's their methods, not nationality or race. At this stage it might become more reasonable that Korean (now formerly, in fact) teams would scout for talented players in the region (considering Visa and permanent living, and many other factors). Major's dream was to be able to play in a Kespa team and I think this sort of dream will become much more realistic for future and current players who have the ambition and dedication. Over time the formerly Korean teams will begin to initiate more and more regional players and provide them with the environment that has been lacking so severely. This is not to say the it wouldn't be possible without them but these teams have so many years of experience that it would help to jump start the process.

Another major advantage, already mentioned, is the centralized location. I think as the dust settles teams will start to realize what a boon this is. As EU and NA get those centralized locations it will become much more realistic to form team houses in the city where most of the money is. Right now tournaments outside of KR are all over the place, and if you do have a team house you will still spend a lot on travel expenses. Not to mention the stresses and inconveniences it imposes. Everyone is raging at how the NA scene is dead, but imagine this for a moment:

Late 2013/Early 2014, MLG establishes permanent SC2 WCS studio in LA/San Fran, all games are now offline. Since all of EG and TL have relocated it would mean that all the players would either have to go back to Korea or move to existing houses. This means all these great players and Coach Park would be under the same roof as, presumably, your favorite EG/TL non-Korean players. Imagine for a moment IdrA, Thorzain, HuK, Stephano living with all these great players and coach Park. Since EG and TL are foreign owned and now have a proper team house with a proper coach, they can begin to recruit tons of talent in the region. Though this scenario is imagined and the date overly optimistic, the probability of such a scenario becomes very possible with the transitional year that we have now.

Or what if ROOT creates a house and engages in negotiation with an eSF or Kespa team? The NA team can provide the facilities and the KR team can bring the knowledge and infrastructure. Both parties would benefit immensely where ROOT can learn, recruit and improve dramatically. Sure the Koreans might be leading the pack, but over time the mutual agreement transfers a lot of the knowledge and methods that were previously, for all intents and purposes, completely exclusive. Maybe the partnership lasts a year, or two? How much could the management of a foreign team learn over this time? When they part ways could they apply it later on and could they build stronger rosters and improve the competitiveness of their current ones?

Do these steps happen over night? No. I read CatZ's post and there is much to be agreed about in there, but at the same time I see so many flaws, especially in his argument about long term growth; which I find quite frankly short sighted. Long term is not a year, or two, or three. It's 10 years or more. It's not about ROOT, or TL, or any current team. It's about that future, in 2030, or 2040 where e-sports is (hopefully) a globally recognized form of competition with lots of funding and public support. Blizzard, though I'm not certain about this, might already acknowledge that the gap between Korean teams and full foreign teams might be too large, and that this generation is possibly lost (I'm being overly pessimistic here). But by inviting Korean teams and infrastructure they will build a stage for players in EU and NA many years down the road to join teams that are descended from Korean team houses and all the benefits that entail to these future careers.

On April 10 2013 23:44 caradoc wrote:


Games are weekly. How can they fly their whole roster to Korea and back every single week?

On April 10 2013 23:55 pms wrote:
I think everyone is forgetting some facts here. Blizzard wants for these regional plays to be all offline, however, currently the infrastructure doesn't exist in NA or EU at the same level as KR. To be fair to all parties this year has online qualifiers, since you can't expect for players and entire teams to immediately get a new team house etc. established in NA and EU. Such endeavors take a lot of time, negotiation and money.

The WCS tournaments and qualifiers are intended to eventually become all offline like the GSL, and in 2014 I think we will see ESL and MLG begin to facilitate the much needed static infrastructure to do this. When the regional WCS become all offline the Koreans and Korean teams (only Incredible Miracle has so far dedicated players, all other teams are foreign owned) can consider permanently relocating to another region. Once this begins happening the level of play in regions should start improving further.

I honestly don't know how people can expect immediate results. I'm sure that Blizzard, more than anyone, is scared of alienating and losing the foreign scenes and fan bases. I mean, they practically state this. I'm also sure that this year's format is not their ideal setting but it was the best that could happen considering how many partners are involved, not to mention how some of them strongly disliked each other.

Step One: Introduce regional leagues that should one day be equal. Players and teams are, between regions, too disparate in skill and organization. Diluting is needed. How to achieve this?

Step Two: Woo Korean teams and infrastructure with money that is not completely centralized in Seoul. Get them accustomed to the prospect that relocating is feasible. If the initial region locks are too severe then regions will become too insulated and will actually hurt long term growth.

Thus moderate region locks are implemented with online qualifiers. Korean players and teams aren't so rich that they can buy a team house in some random city in EU or NA. On top of this there is no set location for offline events like GOM in Seoul. What incentive is there when you get a house in Poland and the tournament location is in France or Germany, or elsewhere? The Korean scene is possible because everything is centralized in one city.

Step Three: Build partnerships with MLG and ESL where eventually static studios are formed in set cities. Once this happens each region will have their Seoul, so to speak of. All team houses, players, and tournaments connected with WCS (or only WCS) can be centralized to one location in each region. Once this part forms:

Step Four: Regional WCS events become all offline. Select few Koreans might move (excluding foreign team Koreans) to new regions and transfer team houses. These few Korean teams aren't stupid, they know where their advantages come from and I highly doubt the coaches think that just because their players are Korean they are naturally better. They know that it's their methods, not nationality or race. At this stage it might become more reasonable that Korean (now formerly, in fact) teams would scout for talented players in the region (considering Visa and permanent living, and many other factors). Major's dream was to be able to play in a Kespa team and I think this sort of dream will become much more realistic for future and current players who have the ambition and dedication. Over time the formerly Korean teams will begin to initiate more and more regional players and provide them with the environment that has been lacking so severely. This is not to say the it wouldn't be possible without them but these teams have so many years of experience that it would help to jump start the process.

Another major advantage, already mentioned, is the centralized location. I think as the dust settles teams will start to realize what a boon this is. As EU and NA get those centralized locations it will become much more realistic to form team houses in the city where most of the money is. Right now tournaments outside of KR are all over the place, and if you do have a team house you will still spend a lot on travel expenses. Not to mention the stresses and inconveniences it imposes. Everyone is raging at how the NA scene is dead, but imagine this for a moment:

Late 2013/Early 2014, MLG establishes permanent SC2 WCS studio in LA/San Fran, all games are now offline. Since all of EG and TL have relocated it would mean that all the players would either have to go back to Korea or move to existing houses. This means all these great players and Coach Park would be under the same roof as, presumably, your favorite EG/TL non-Korean players. Imagine for a moment IdrA, Thorzain, HuK, Stephano living with all these great players and coach Park. Since EG and TL are foreign owned and now have a proper team house with a proper coach, they can begin to recruit tons of talent in the region. Though this scenario is imagined and the date overly optimistic, the probability of such a scenario becomes very possible with the transitional year that we have now.

Or what if ROOT creates a house and engages in negotiation with an eSF or Kespa team? The NA team can provide the facilities and the KR team can bring the knowledge and infrastructure. Both parties would benefit immensely where ROOT can learn, recruit and improve dramatically. Sure the Koreans might be leading the pack, but over time the mutual agreement transfers a lot of the knowledge and methods that were previously, for all intents and purposes, completely exclusive. Maybe the partnership lasts a year, or two? How much could the management of a foreign team learn over this time? When they part ways could they apply it later on and could they build stronger rosters and improve the competitiveness of their current ones?

Do these steps happen over night? No. I read CatZ's post and there is much to be agreed about in there, but at the same time I see so many flaws, especially in his argument about long term growth; which I find quite frankly short sighted. Long term is not a year, or two, or three. It's 10 years or more. It's not about ROOT, or TL, or any current team. It's about that future, in 2030, or 2040 where e-sports is (hopefully) a globally recognized form of competition with lots of funding and public support. Blizzard, though I'm not certain about this, might already acknowledge that the gap between Korean teams and full foreign teams might be too large, and that this generation is possibly lost (I'm being overly pessimistic here). But by inviting Korean teams and infrastructure they will build a stage for players in EU and NA many years down the road to join teams that are descended from Korean team houses and all the benefits that entail to these future careers.

On April 10 2013 23:53 dacimvrl wrote:

Last time I checked, team leagues are still tournaments.. Like I said, there's just not enough viewers to even sustain a GSL-esque league in NA, because the majority of people would obviously rather watch GSL than NA players vs NA players. Sure casual viewers prefer that, but there just aren't as many casual viewers to sustain that. And WCS won't be an offline-only tournament. Blizzard said that publicly in the interview yesterday, so whatever Incontrol said was obviously wrong.

On April 10 2013 23:45 Sjokola wrote:

That's actually my point. I only pointed this side out because it's not heard much here. Of course everybody likes to watch the best of the best compete. But the stadiums all around the world are filled every week with fans supporting their local club.

On April 10 2013 23:50 BeyondCtrL wrote:
I think everyone is forgetting some facts here. Blizzard wants for these regional plays to be all offline, however, currently the infrastructure doesn't exist in NA or EU at the same level as KR. To be fair to all parties this year has online qualifiers, since you can't expect for players and entire teams to immediately get a new team house etc. established in NA and EU. Such endeavors take a lot of time, negotiation and money.

The WCS tournaments and qualifiers are intended to eventually become all offline like the GSL, and in 2014 I think we will see ESL and MLG begin to facilitate the much needed static infrastructure to do this. When the regional WCS become all offline the Koreans and Korean teams (only Incredible Miracle has so far dedicated players, all other teams are foreign owned) can consider permanently relocating to another region. Once this begins happening the level of play in regions should start improving further.

I honestly don't know how people can expect immediate results. I'm sure that Blizzard, more than anyone, is scared of alienating and losing the foreign scenes and fan bases. I mean, they practically state this. I'm also sure that this year's format is not their ideal setting but it was the best that could happen considering how many partners are involved, not to mention how some of them strongly disliked each other.

Step One: Introduce regional leagues that should one day be equal. Players and teams are, between regions, too disparate in skill and organization. Diluting is needed. How to achieve this?

Step Two: Woo Korean teams and infrastructure with money that is not completely centralized in Seoul. Get them accustomed to the prospect that relocating is feasible. If the initial region locks are too severe then regions will become too insulated and will actually hurt long term growth.

Thus moderate region locks are implemented with online qualifiers. Korean players and teams aren't so rich that they can buy a team house in some random city in EU or NA. On top of this there is no set location for offline events like GOM in Seoul. What incentive is there when you get a house in Poland and the tournament location is in France or Germany, or elsewhere? The Korean scene is possible because everything is centralized in one city.

Step Three: Build partnerships with MLG and ESL where eventually static studios are formed in set cities. Once this happens each region will have their Seoul, so to speak of. All team houses, players, and tournaments connected with WCS (or only WCS) can be centralized to one location in each region. Once this part forms:

Step Four: Regional WCS events become all offline. Select few Koreans might move (excluding foreign team Koreans) to new regions and transfer team houses. These few Korean teams aren't stupid, they know where their advantages come from and I highly doubt the coaches think that just because their players are Korean they are naturally better. They know that it's their methods, not nationality or race. At this stage it might become more reasonable that Korean (now formerly, in fact) teams would scout for talented players in the region (considering Visa and permanent living, and many other factors). Major's dream was to be able to play in a Kespa team and I think this sort of dream will become much more realistic for future and current players who have the ambition and dedication. Over time the formerly Korean teams will begin to initiate more and more regional players and provide them with the environment that has been lacking so severely. This is not to say the it wouldn't be possible without them but these teams have so many years of experience that it would help to jump start the process.

Another major advantage, already mentioned, is the centralized location. I think as the dust settles teams will start to realize what a boon this is. As EU and NA get those centralized locations it will become much more realistic to form team houses in the city where most of the money is. Right now tournaments outside of KR are all over the place, and if you do have a team house you will still spend a lot on travel expenses. Not to mention the stresses and inconveniences it imposes. Everyone is raging at how the NA scene is dead, but imagine this for a moment:

Late 2013/Early 2014, MLG establishes permanent SC2 WCS studio in LA/San Fran, all games are now offline. Since all of EG and TL have relocated it would mean that all the players would either have to go back to Korea or move to existing houses. This means all these great players and Coach Park would be under the same roof as, presumably, your favorite EG/TL non-Korean players. Imagine for a moment IdrA, Thorzain, HuK, Stephano living with all these great players and coach Park. Since EG and TL are foreign owned and now have a proper team house with a proper coach, they can begin to recruit tons of talent in the region. Though this scenario is imagined and the date overly optimistic, the probability of such a scenario becomes very possible with the transitional year that we have now.

Or what if ROOT creates a house and engages in negotiation with an eSF or Kespa team? The NA team can provide the facilities and the KR team can bring the knowledge and infrastructure. Both parties would benefit immensely where ROOT can learn, recruit and improve dramatically. Sure the Koreans might be leading the pack, but over time the mutual agreement transfers a lot of the knowledge and methods that were previously, for all intents and purposes, completely exclusive. Maybe the partnership lasts a year, or two? How much could the management of a foreign team learn over this time? When they part ways could they apply it later on and could they build stronger rosters and improve the competitiveness of their current ones?

Do these steps happen over night? No. I read CatZ's post and there is much to be agreed about in there, but at the same time I see so many flaws, especially in his argument about long term growth; which I find quite frankly short sighted. Long term is not a year, or two, or three. It's 10 years or more. It's not about ROOT, or TL, or any current team. It's about that future, in 2030, or 2040 where e-sports is (hopefully) a globally recognized form of competition with lots of funding and public support. Blizzard, though I'm not certain about this, might already acknowledge that the gap between Korean teams and full foreign teams might be too large, and that this generation is possibly lost (I'm being overly pessimistic here). But by inviting Korean teams and infrastructure they will build a stage for players in EU and NA many years down the road to join teams that are descended from Korean team houses and all the benefits that entail to these future careers.

On April 10 2013 23:56 smashlloyd20 wrote:
Europe should be an amazing tournament with all the best foreigners (besides Stephano and Scarlett?) and a few really good Koreans. Poor America though...

On April 11 2013 00:00 pms wrote:


I think somebody should post in on Reddit to soften up Catz followers and Catz himself.

On April 10 2013 23:55 dacimvrl wrote:


well, I am pretty familiar with the NA scene, so try me, try to even list 32 NA players. It's a challenge!

On April 10 2013 23:57 Plansix wrote:


You are 100% incorrect. Mike Morhaime said in the interview below that they want to go offline as soon as possible:

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=407082

"IBB: I think that our goal is to have as many offline events as well. We think they're awesome. We would love to have a studio with access to live audience, like GOM has here in Korea, like OGN has here in Korea. We still don't have that in North America and Europe. It's something that we would be looking into to see how we can do that with our partners, MLG and ESL. But we had to start somewhere, and to create all these matches in offline events would basically mean a lot of traveling for players. And that was impossible for 2013. In Korea, specifically, everyone lives in Seoul, everyone competes in Seoul, so it's really easy to do it. But just imagine how we'd do something like this in America, it's a little bit more complicated. So we are aware that offline events are awesome and they generate a lot of audience excitement, we love those events, we go to these events ourselves. But at least for 2013 we would need to do some of these matches online."

Incontrol further stated that he spoke with someone as Blizzard who said they want to get these events offline ASAP, but need time to set up a way to do so. So they started somewhere.

On April 11 2013 00:02 WerderBremen wrote:
I'm sorry for asking a stupid question, but everything is so confusing:

Does this mean we will only have WCS 's from now on? No GSL/MLG/whatever? Or will all leagues stay the same (more or less), plus WCS regionals (with world champ at the end).

On April 10 2013 23:50 BeyondCtrL wrote:
I think everyone is forgetting some facts here. Blizzard wants for these regional plays to be all offline, however, currently the infrastructure doesn't exist in NA or EU at the same level as KR. To be fair to all parties this year has online qualifiers, since you can't expect for players and entire teams to immediately get a new team house etc. established in NA and EU. Such endeavors take a lot of time, negotiation and money.

The WCS tournaments and qualifiers are intended to eventually become all offline like the GSL, and in 2014 I think we will see ESL and MLG begin to facilitate the much needed static infrastructure to do this. When the regional WCS become all offline the Koreans and Korean teams (only Incredible Miracle has so far dedicated players, all other teams are foreign owned) can consider permanently relocating to another region. Once this begins happening the level of play in regions should start improving further.

I honestly don't know how people can expect immediate results. I'm sure that Blizzard, more than anyone, is scared of alienating and losing the foreign scenes and fan bases. I mean, they practically state this. I'm also sure that this year's format is not their ideal setting but it was the best that could happen considering how many partners are involved, not to mention how some of them strongly disliked each other.

Step One: Introduce regional leagues that should one day be equal. Players and teams are, between regions, too disparate in skill and organization. Diluting is needed. How to achieve this?

Step Two: Woo Korean teams and infrastructure with money that is not completely centralized in Seoul. Get them accustomed to the prospect that relocating is feasible. If the initial region locks are too severe then regions will become too insulated and will actually hurt long term growth.

Thus moderate region locks are implemented with online qualifiers. Korean players and teams aren't so rich that they can buy a team house in some random city in EU or NA. On top of this there is no set location for offline events like GOM in Seoul. What incentive is there when you get a house in Poland and the tournament location is in France or Germany, or elsewhere? The Korean scene is possible because everything is centralized in one city.

Step Three: Build partnerships with MLG and ESL where eventually static studios are formed in set cities. Once this happens each region will have their Seoul, so to speak of. All team houses, players, and tournaments connected with WCS (or only WCS) can be centralized to one location in each region. Once this part forms:

Step Four: Regional WCS events become all offline. Select few Koreans might move (excluding foreign team Koreans) to new regions and transfer team houses. These few Korean teams aren't stupid, they know where their advantages come from and I highly doubt the coaches think that just because their players are Korean they are naturally better. They know that it's their methods, not nationality or race. At this stage it might become more reasonable that Korean (now formerly, in fact) teams would scout for talented players in the region (considering Visa and permanent living, and many other factors). Major's dream was to be able to play in a Kespa team and I think this sort of dream will become much more realistic for future and current players who have the ambition and dedication. Over time the formerly Korean teams will begin to initiate more and more regional players and provide them with the environment that has been lacking so severely. This is not to say the it wouldn't be possible without them but these teams have so many years of experience that it would help to jump start the process.

Another major advantage, already mentioned, is the centralized location. I think as the dust settles teams will start to realize what a boon this is. As EU and NA get those centralized locations it will become much more realistic to form team houses in the city where most of the money is. Right now tournaments outside of KR are all over the place, and if you do have a team house you will still spend a lot on travel expenses. Not to mention the stresses and inconveniences it imposes. Everyone is raging at how the NA scene is dead, but imagine this for a moment:

Late 2013/Early 2014, MLG establishes permanent SC2 WCS studio in LA/San Fran, all games are now offline. Since all of EG and TL have relocated it would mean that all the players would either have to go back to Korea or move to existing houses. This means all these great players and Coach Park would be under the same roof as, presumably, your favorite EG/TL non-Korean players. Imagine for a moment IdrA, Thorzain, HuK, Stephano living with all these great players and coach Park. Since EG and TL are foreign owned and now have a proper team house with a proper coach, they can begin to recruit tons of talent in the region. Though this scenario is imagined and the date overly optimistic, the probability of such a scenario becomes very possible with the transitional year that we have now.

Or what if ROOT creates a house and engages in negotiation with an eSF or Kespa team? The NA team can provide the facilities and the KR team can bring the knowledge and infrastructure. Both parties would benefit immensely where ROOT can learn, recruit and improve dramatically. Sure the Koreans might be leading the pack, but over time the mutual agreement transfers a lot of the knowledge and methods that were previously, for all intents and purposes, completely exclusive. Maybe the partnership lasts a year, or two? How much could the management of a foreign team learn over this time? When they part ways could they apply it later on and could they build stronger rosters and improve the competitiveness of their current ones?

Do these steps happen over night? No. I read CatZ's post and there is much to be agreed about in there, but at the same time I see so many flaws, especially in his argument about long term growth; which I find quite frankly short sighted. Long term is not a year, or two, or three. It's 10 years or more. It's not about ROOT, or TL, or any current team. It's about that future, in 2030, or 2040 where e-sports is (hopefully) a globally recognized form of competition with lots of funding and public support. Blizzard, though I'm not certain about this, might already acknowledge that the gap between Korean teams and full foreign teams might be too large, and that this generation is possibly lost (I'm being overly pessimistic here). But by inviting Korean teams and infrastructure they will build a stage for players in EU and NA many years down the road to join teams that are descended from Korean team houses and all the benefits that entail to these future careers.

On April 11 2013 00:03 StarVe wrote:

Scarlett, IdrA, HuK, Machine, incontrol, LZgamer, NonY, State, Illusion, Catz
Drewbie, Theognis, Vibe, Minigun, qxc, Ddoro, Masa, TT1, Suppy, Caliber
Sasquatch, Trimaster, Insur, Axslav, Leiya, Tubbythefat, Major, Maker, Remark, Glon
hendralisk, Combat-Ex

There you go. Yes, it's fucking hard.