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On April 10 2013 22:59 reDicE wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 22:55 Plansix wrote:On April 10 2013 22:49 Derez wrote:On April 10 2013 22:40 Plansix wrote:On April 10 2013 22:37 Derez wrote:On April 10 2013 22:34 Plansix wrote:On April 10 2013 22:31 mordk wrote:On April 10 2013 22:13 Benjamin99 wrote:On April 10 2013 22:07 DusTerr wrote:On April 10 2013 22:03 Benjamin99 wrote:
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You post is preposterous. You are simply clueless. This got nothing to do with easy money. This is basically a death stroke to any NA player or any future talent from NA. I expect many NA teams will also avoid sc2. No Sponsors or teams will pay a dime to any NA player simply because the investment is not worth it. Sponsors and teams wants exposure And this actually gives the NA scene legitimacy AND exposure. How many viewers did the NA WCS get? What about any other NA held tournament without Koreans? There is only one thing that's stopped "NA only" events. SPONSORS wanted viewers. Viewers wanted Koreans. And that's not true at all. The reason NA WSC got less viewers was because MLG was at the same time. It was unfair for the NA WCS. Look at WCS EU one of the highest watched tournaments in 2012 and properly one of the best and most exciting On April 10 2013 22:13 mordk wrote:
That is not 100% sure. Viewers want a lot of things and its not just Koreans. My girlfriend only wants to watch games with players she likes, and the only Koreans she cares about are MKP and Liquid Hero. The rest are EG players and Gubby. People who claim that everyone wants Korean players are wrong.
Of course, nothing is absolute, but it's a good point. Viewership in all tournaments increases dramatically when there's good KR players involved. If a foreigner manages to go to the later stages then that's viewer count heaven, but foreinger only tournaments get a ton less viewers. Not true Mordk . Again look at WSC EU One tournament hardly means anything. For every case I can remember except WCS EU finals, tournaments heavily benefited in terms of viewer counts with the presence of KR players. No one is saying a few Korean players wouldn't be fine. Polt and Violet would be totally ok. But the top 16 shouldn't be Korean for an NA league, where the rules for NA players trying for the Korean league require them to be in Korea. Viewers or not, it is BS for the any player in NA who has been putting in any serious effort. The koreans are comming here for easy money because they are allowed qualify and play online. If they were required to play off line, in a studio, we should very few, if any. I honestly doubt that, there'd be less of them, but they'd still be there. The players participating in the EU WCS are going to have to move to EU for several months at a time in order to play, and they seem to be fine making that commitment. The visa issues will be a huge barrier for entry into the US. I am pretty sure that most of them are coming under a "competitors visa" which is designed for thinks like MGL or the Boston marathon. However, those are time limited and being here all year is a different prospect all together. A work visa is super hard and costly to get and requires an NA sponsor(vise sponsor, ie, employer, not like Kingston HyperX) for the visa. It will be fewer than you think. I'm not sure on KR-US visa laws, but isn't it a simple reentry system? Leave the country for x days and you can get back in on a tourist visa again? If not, I'm sure there's some way blizzard can pull some strings/change the structure of the league that makes it possible for them to sponsor players directly. I don't know, but NA visas are rough if you are going to be here all year. The one they use to come to NA for a weekend for MLG will not fly and work visa(what Demulism has) are super costly to get(lawyers). It will be a lot more effort than a lot of Korean players are willing to put in unless the teams handle it. And you need an NA employee to sponsor you(once against demulism is an employee of EG) and sponsoring a visa cost them money too. Immigration law is freaking complicated and living in NA for a full year will require the Koreans to dive into that mess. They don't have to live here for an entire year.
One the event goes off line(which is what Blizzard is planning to do), they will. But not for season 1 of WCS.
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NA looks like there are bit too many Korean in it.
However, this isn't the death of the NA scene like many seem to think.
The number of Koreans is a direct result of using GSL Code A & S for WCS Korea.
If Korean players outside of Code A &S had the chance to qualify for the current season it would be a different story.
Whatever the reason, this isn't what Blizzard imagined when they made the structure.
On April 10 2013 22:20 Benjamin99 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 22:15 syllogism wrote:On April 10 2013 22:07 Champloo wrote:
This is so stupid, why didn't they just make it based on nationality like the last WCS?
At least Europe will have mainly European players in it, but NA is not even worth watching for me now, and I would definitely be pissed if I was a NA pro player. That's funny, because I was thinking that NA WCS wouldn't be worth watching with the region lock in place. In addition, NA pro players have no right to be pissed given that all Blizzard is doing is adding a few leagues with big prize pools; it is objectively an improvement from their pespective. Only for code S Koreans the structure may be worse than the current one. Well I'm sure the NA players is happy that you syllogism and you elitist attitude is going to watch. ps I´´ll take 1 casual fan over 10 of you any day of the week because casual fans grows the scene while you just spawn elitist crap and complain about how bad the casters are.
Hahaha. Wow. "elitist" lol. Lmao.
I'm not a Republican or conservative in any sense, but your so called "anti-elitist" thing is the most laughable thing I've ever read.
Should I step on my shoes and give them to you?
Maybe you should have my cars and my house you can live in that too.
I'm sorry I can appreciate higher level of play, and don't think watching players marginally better than me is entertaining.
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On April 10 2013 22:59 zimms wrote:
So the average casual SC2 viewer is a racist?
They don't care about Koreans because they don't know them and see no difference in skill. They also don't really know foreign players, but it's just less frightening to watch somebody with the same skin color.
Seriously?
Yes me and my girlfriend are racist according to TL logic. I'm not sure how she will take it
On April 10 2013 23:01 Cattlecruiser wrote:NA looks like there are bit too many Korean B teamers in it. However, this isn't the death of the NA scene like many seem to think. The number of Koreans is a direct result of using GSL Code A & S for WCS Korea. If Korean players outside of Code A &S had the chance to qualify for the current season it would be a different story. Whatever the reason, this isn't what Blizzard imagined when they made the structure. Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 22:20 Benjamin99 wrote:On April 10 2013 22:15 syllogism wrote:On April 10 2013 22:07 Champloo wrote:
This is so stupid, why didn't they just make it based on nationality like the last WCS?
At least Europe will have mainly European players in it, but NA is not even worth watching for me now, and I would definitely be pissed if I was a NA pro player. That's funny, because I was thinking that NA WCS wouldn't be worth watching with the region lock in place. In addition, NA pro players have no right to be pissed given that all Blizzard is doing is adding a few leagues with big prize pools; it is objectively an improvement from their pespective. Only for code S Koreans the structure may be worse than the current one. Well I'm sure the NA players is happy that you syllogism and you elitist attitude is going to watch. ps I´´ll take 1 casual fan over 10 of you any day of the week because casual fans grows the scene while you just spawn elitist crap and complain about how bad the casters are. Hahaha. Wow. "elitist" lol. Lmao. I'm not a Republican or conservative in any sense, but your so called "anti-elitist" thing is the most laughable thing I've ever read. Should I step on my shoes and give them to you? Maybe you should have my cars and my house you can live in that too. I'm sorry I can appreciate higher level of play, and don't think watching players marginally better than me is entertaining.
Yea because that attitude really grew the western BW scene right? I'm wondering how many casual fans and women actually saw BW and no lolita dolls doesn't count
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Vatican City State582 Posts
On April 10 2013 22:59 zimms wrote:
So the average casual SC2 viewer is a racist?
They don't care about Koreans because they don't know them and see no difference in skill. They also don't really know foreign players, but it's just less frightening to watch somebody with the same skin color.
Seriously?
Not only that, but people seem to think that these casual viewers' opinions (who don't even play sc2) should weigh more than actual SC2 fans and should have the power to decide what they want to watch in major sc2 tournaments.. which is fucking retarded.
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On April 10 2013 22:57 JustPassingBy wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 22:54 Acertos wrote:On April 10 2013 22:27 Kergy wrote:On April 10 2013 22:21 CoR wrote:about the olympic guys "you not watch them for blabla you watch them for best games you make me sick etc" i dont find it to quote ^^ NO! i watch it to see germans win  and so alot watch sc2 to see foreigns or their homeland guys win, i rly no care good games from koreans in europe i want GERMANS to win, in sport everyone is a nationalist for sure and in esport why it have to be different ? its a bit i also like EVERY european win Maybe because SC2 doesnt have the tradition that established sports have and grew as a global thing that we were all exposed to since the beginning? It hurts to see so many people speaking for 'everyone' or 'we', not all SC2 fans think the same way and our preferences are very different. I for one don't care AT ALL about the foreign scene and the the average EU/NA player seems less interesting than the shyest korean for me. It just sucks that GSL won't have MVP and Jaedong now. This : "the average EU/NA player seems less interesting than the shyest korean for me" is BULLSHIT. I'm glad there are only a few koreans attending WCS EU and truthfully with the amount of guys we have in Europe + the lag it will be hard for them (even if they are as skilled as MMA and Mvp). So I made a list of the scariest europeans (arbitrary forgot a lot) who have a good chance to win games vs koreans (I see the ones with +++ winning series) : Protoss : Babyknight Feast Grubby Hasu Mana+++ Naniwa+++ Sase Socke Zerg : Bly Lowely Nerchio Ret Snute+++ Sortof Stephano+++ Vortix+++ Terran : HeroMarine+++ Lucifron+++ Thorzain Demuslim I thought Demuslim would compete on NA? He's currently living in the U.S, and got (or is trying to) apply for a working visa.
Oh ok i wasn't too sure so i put him there. But from his point of view i wonder what's the best?
I think it would be hard for him in both. I think he's better than the average NA player but a lot of koreans there and i don't think he is better than the average EU player.
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I really don't know what everyone is talking about. I'm more excited than ever. I get to watch the best players in the world compete in all 3 regions. It's just more high level play, all the time <3
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On April 10 2013 22:57 JustPassingBy wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 22:54 Acertos wrote:On April 10 2013 22:27 Kergy wrote:On April 10 2013 22:21 CoR wrote:about the olympic guys "you not watch them for blabla you watch them for best games you make me sick etc" i dont find it to quote ^^ NO! i watch it to see germans win and so alot watch sc2 to see foreigns or their homeland guys win, i rly no care good games from koreans in europe i want GERMANS to win, in sport everyone is a nationalist for sure and in esport why it have to be different ? its a bit i also like EVERY european win Maybe because SC2 doesnt have the tradition that established sports have and grew as a global thing that we were all exposed to since the beginning? It hurts to see so many people speaking for 'everyone' or 'we', not all SC2 fans think the same way and our preferences are very different. I for one don't care AT ALL about the foreign scene and the the average EU/NA player seems less interesting than the shyest korean for me. It just sucks that GSL won't have MVP and Jaedong now. This : "the average EU/NA player seems less interesting than the shyest korean for me" is BULLSHIT. I'm glad there are only a few koreans attending WCS EU and truthfully with the amount of guys we have in Europe + the lag it will be hard for them (even if they are as skilled as MMA and Mvp). So I made a list of the scariest europeans (arbitrary forgot a lot) who have a good chance to win games vs koreans (I see the ones with +++ winning series) : Protoss : Babyknight Feast Grubby Hasu Mana+++ Naniwa+++ Sase Socke Zerg : Bly Lowely Nerchio Ret Snute+++ Sortof Stephano+++ Vortix+++ Terran : HeroMarine+++ Lucifron+++ Thorzain Demuslim I thought Demuslim would compete on NA? He's currently living in the U.S, and got (or is trying to) apply for a working visa.
I believe he has a work visa, he talked about on ITG. He also complained how much money it cost him and how it was wasted since he could have just played online for WCS. Still, there are future seasons which will be off line.
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On April 10 2013 23:00 opterown wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 22:59 zimms wrote:
So the average casual SC2 viewer is a racist?
They don't care about Koreans because they don't know them and see no difference in skill. They also don't really know foreign players, but it's just less frightening to watch somebody with the same skin color.
Seriously? well it's not quite like that, but the average sc2 viewer does care more about foreigners than koreans, since koreans can be more difficult to relate to
Actually, it's more about players from your region. I as a european, for example, couldn't care less about some of the scrubs playing on the NA server. I'd actually rather see MVP here than any NA player. ^.^
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Blizzard have well and truly fucked this up. They've taken loads of good players out of the GSL and not even managed to create the arena for foreigners compete which was the entire point in the first place.
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opterown
Australia54784 Posts
On April 10 2013 23:01 dacimvrl wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 22:59 zimms wrote:
So the average casual SC2 viewer is a racist?
They don't care about Koreans because they don't know them and see no difference in skill. They also don't really know foreign players, but it's just less frightening to watch somebody with the same skin color.
Seriously? Not only that, but people seem to think that these casual viewers' opinions (who don't even play sc2) should weigh more than actual SC2 fans and should have the power to decide what they want to watch in sc2.. which is fucking retarded.
the number of casual viewers far outweighs the number of dedicated fans. it is those casual viewers where we can expand our scene, it's not good to be a community of several thousand insular elitists imo
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On April 10 2013 23:02 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 22:57 JustPassingBy wrote:On April 10 2013 22:54 Acertos wrote:On April 10 2013 22:27 Kergy wrote:On April 10 2013 22:21 CoR wrote:about the olympic guys "you not watch them for blabla you watch them for best games you make me sick etc" i dont find it to quote ^^ NO! i watch it to see germans win and so alot watch sc2 to see foreigns or their homeland guys win, i rly no care good games from koreans in europe i want GERMANS to win, in sport everyone is a nationalist for sure and in esport why it have to be different ? its a bit i also like EVERY european win Maybe because SC2 doesnt have the tradition that established sports have and grew as a global thing that we were all exposed to since the beginning? It hurts to see so many people speaking for 'everyone' or 'we', not all SC2 fans think the same way and our preferences are very different. I for one don't care AT ALL about the foreign scene and the the average EU/NA player seems less interesting than the shyest korean for me. It just sucks that GSL won't have MVP and Jaedong now. This : "the average EU/NA player seems less interesting than the shyest korean for me" is BULLSHIT. I'm glad there are only a few koreans attending WCS EU and truthfully with the amount of guys we have in Europe + the lag it will be hard for them (even if they are as skilled as MMA and Mvp). So I made a list of the scariest europeans (arbitrary forgot a lot) who have a good chance to win games vs koreans (I see the ones with +++ winning series) : Protoss : Babyknight Feast Grubby Hasu Mana+++ Naniwa+++ Sase Socke Zerg : Bly Lowely Nerchio Ret Snute+++ Sortof Stephano+++ Vortix+++ Terran : HeroMarine+++ Lucifron+++ Thorzain Demuslim I thought Demuslim would compete on NA? He's currently living in the U.S, and got (or is trying to) apply for a working visa. I believe he has a work visa, he talked about on ITG. He also complained how much money it cost him and how it was wasted since he could have just played online for WCS. Still, there are future seasons which will be off line.
So he does not expect to advance to the offline rounds? He looked pretty strong the last time I saw him... :o
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Sure doesn't seem like a WCS anymore. They might as well call it KCS.
And I know, if you want a premiere league, you need the premiere players but part of the fun of last year's competition was watching the best in a region duke it out. The Canadian, and subsequent NA competition was so awesome to watch!
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On April 10 2013 22:59 zimms wrote:
So the average casual SC2 viewer is a racist?
They don't care about Koreans because they don't know them and see no difference in skill. They also don't really know foreign players, but it's just less frightening to watch somebody with the same skin color.
Seriously?
Lol no, it's just much more interesting to hear an interview in english (how choppy that english may be) then through a translator.
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I'd prefer only Koreans anyway. They're just so much better it's not even fair. I hate watching two shitty players just be shitty for 20 minutes. There’s like maybe 2-3 non Koreans that can compete
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On April 10 2013 23:01 TimENT wrote:
I really don't know what everyone is talking about. I'm more excited than ever. I get to watch the best players in the world compete in all 3 regions. It's just more high level play, all the time <3
I'd definitely agree if it weren't coupled with the fact that Blizz specifically stated part of WCS purpose was to grow local scenes and heroes, which this format doesn't accomplish at all.
Other than that, I love watching the best play, I'll watch every WCS now instead of skipping NA entirely.
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On April 10 2013 23:01 Benjamin99 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 22:59 zimms wrote:
So the average casual SC2 viewer is a racist?
They don't care about Koreans because they don't know them and see no difference in skill. They also don't really know foreign players, but it's just less frightening to watch somebody with the same skin color.
Seriously? Yes me and my girlfriend are racist according to TL logic. I'm not sure how she will take it
You're a little young to be getting it on with the fairer sex no?
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On April 10 2013 22:17 nojitosunrise wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 22:09 ZenithM wrote:On April 10 2013 22:07 Champloo wrote:
This is so stupid, why didn't they just make it based on nationality like the last WCS?
At least Europe will have mainly European players in it, but NA is not even worth watching for me now, and I would definitely be pissed if I was a NA pro player. There are no true NA pro players, that's the problem.Semi-pros at best, but most of them are still studying or working part-time or something. And there never will be if already "established" teams can just shuttle korean talent into NA. There is absolutely no incentive for upcoming NA player to get "good" at starcraft.
So how do you explain the existence of young upcoming Korean players? They grow up in a much tougher scene than NA or EU, and still there are several each year that make it into a pro team. What was their incentive to try despite of terrible odds?
ST.Life may be the best example. He was 14 when he joined a pro team. You think the infrastructure or finances he had available before he joined a team were any different from 14 year olds from EU or NA? No, he was just a kid who showed exceptional talent and determination, and was picked up by a pro team which recognized his potential. From there he grew into a world class player.
There's no good reason why this cannot happen to a 14 year old from NA or EU. Life isn't genetically more adept at playing SC than any of us. What is important is the difference in attitude between western teams and Korean teams. Western teams aren't interested in developing talent or being the best. They care about exposure, and that doesn't necessarily require the best players. Nor does it require recognizing and developing talent. This leads to a lack of growth, and an ever increasing skill gap between NA/EU and KR.
I'm not saying the current WCS system is the best system, but it is hardly responsible for 'killing the NA scene'. The solution to save the Western eSports scene must also come from within. Even if Blizzard introduced a region lock it wouldn't change anything if the goals and attitudes of Western players and teams doesn't change. They need to move away from streaming 100-200 hours a month, towards being more competitive. I'm well aware that may not be possible for the current generation of Western progamers (for financial reasons). That's a shame, but i think a long term focus is more important if you truly care about a functioning Western eSports scene.
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On April 10 2013 22:59 zimms wrote:
So the average casual SC2 viewer is a racist?
They don't care about Koreans because they don't know them and see no difference in skill. They also don't really know foreign players, but it's just less frightening to watch somebody with the same skin color.
Seriously?
My girlfriend and I don't really care about most the the Korean players over members of EG that are in NA. There are exceptions, like Liquid Hero, MKP and Crank. But the rest, I could give two shits about.
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Vatican City State582 Posts
On April 10 2013 23:03 opterown wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 23:01 dacimvrl wrote:On April 10 2013 22:59 zimms wrote:
So the average casual SC2 viewer is a racist?
They don't care about Koreans because they don't know them and see no difference in skill. They also don't really know foreign players, but it's just less frightening to watch somebody with the same skin color.
Seriously? Not only that, but people seem to think that these casual viewers' opinions (who don't even play sc2) should weigh more than actual SC2 fans and should have the power to decide what they want to watch in sc2.. which is fucking retarded. the number of casual viewers far outweighs the number of dedicated fans. it is those casual viewers where we can expand our scene, it's not good to be a community of several thousand insular elitists imo
you have the statistics somewhere? because I am pretty sure the casual viewers would rather spend weekends and evenings out camping or skiing than watching Life vs Flash (2 unknown players to them) last MLG, breaking the viewer record. Just saying.
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EPT
