|
On April 10 2013 22:09 Bunn wrote:
Well, things were looking up for Blizzard, but not any more. WCS will be just another Korean-dominated tournament.
Koreans shouldn't be able to join NA/EU, unless they physically live there. That's my 2 cents.
Well, you should have to play on the EU server to play the EU games, and on the NA server for NA games. Otherwise we will get games with lag problems. (And on the KR server to play in the GSL, as it is)
|
opterown
Australia54784 Posts
On April 10 2013 23:04 Elp wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 22:17 nojitosunrise wrote:On April 10 2013 22:09 ZenithM wrote:On April 10 2013 22:07 Champloo wrote:
This is so stupid, why didn't they just make it based on nationality like the last WCS?
At least Europe will have mainly European players in it, but NA is not even worth watching for me now, and I would definitely be pissed if I was a NA pro player. There are no true NA pro players, that's the problem.Semi-pros at best, but most of them are still studying or working part-time or something. And there never will be if already "established" teams can just shuttle korean talent into NA. There is absolutely no incentive for upcoming NA player to get "good" at starcraft. So how do you explain the existence of young upcoming Korean players? They grow up in a much tougher scene than NA or EU, and still there are several each year that make it into a pro team. What was their incentive to try despite of terrible odds? ST.Life may be the best example. He was 14 when he joined a pro team. You think the infrastructure or finances he had available before he joined a team were any different from 14 year olds from EU or NA? No, he was just a kid who showed exceptional talent and determination, and was picked up by a pro team which recognized his potential. From there he grew into a world class player.
actually the korean support for esports is so much greater than the infrastructure in NA or EU, so mmm. no 14-year old in US will spend 80% of his free time on sc2 since there's no potential future for it there, unlike in KR
On April 10 2013 23:05 dacimvrl wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 23:03 opterown wrote:On April 10 2013 23:01 dacimvrl wrote:On April 10 2013 22:59 zimms wrote:
So the average casual SC2 viewer is a racist?
They don't care about Koreans because they don't know them and see no difference in skill. They also don't really know foreign players, but it's just less frightening to watch somebody with the same skin color.
Seriously? Not only that, but people seem to think that these casual viewers' opinions (who don't even play sc2) should weigh more than actual SC2 fans and should have the power to decide what they want to watch in sc2.. which is fucking retarded. the number of casual viewers far outweighs the number of dedicated fans. it is those casual viewers where we can expand our scene, it's not good to be a community of several thousand insular elitists imo you have the statistics somewhere? because I am pretty sure the casual viewers would rather spend weekends and evenings out camping or skiing than watching Life vs Flash last MLG, breaking the viewer record. Just saying.
casual viewers are what gave dota ~500,000 viewers, the average premier dota tournament does about as well as sc2, but with a proper story and decent foreigners to relate to, sc2 can reach those numbers too
|
On April 10 2013 23:03 JustPassingBy wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 23:02 Plansix wrote:On April 10 2013 22:57 JustPassingBy wrote:On April 10 2013 22:54 Acertos wrote:On April 10 2013 22:27 Kergy wrote:On April 10 2013 22:21 CoR wrote:about the olympic guys "you not watch them for blabla you watch them for best games you make me sick etc" i dont find it to quote ^^ NO! i watch it to see germans win  and so alot watch sc2 to see foreigns or their homeland guys win, i rly no care good games from koreans in europe i want GERMANS to win, in sport everyone is a nationalist for sure and in esport why it have to be different ? its a bit i also like EVERY european win Maybe because SC2 doesnt have the tradition that established sports have and grew as a global thing that we were all exposed to since the beginning? It hurts to see so many people speaking for 'everyone' or 'we', not all SC2 fans think the same way and our preferences are very different. I for one don't care AT ALL about the foreign scene and the the average EU/NA player seems less interesting than the shyest korean for me. It just sucks that GSL won't have MVP and Jaedong now. This : "the average EU/NA player seems less interesting than the shyest korean for me" is BULLSHIT. I'm glad there are only a few koreans attending WCS EU and truthfully with the amount of guys we have in Europe + the lag it will be hard for them (even if they are as skilled as MMA and Mvp). So I made a list of the scariest europeans (arbitrary forgot a lot) who have a good chance to win games vs koreans (I see the ones with +++ winning series) : Protoss : Babyknight Feast Grubby Hasu Mana+++ Naniwa+++ Sase Socke Zerg : Bly Lowely Nerchio Ret Snute+++ Sortof Stephano+++ Vortix+++ Terran : HeroMarine+++ Lucifron+++ Thorzain Demuslim I thought Demuslim would compete on NA? He's currently living in the U.S, and got (or is trying to) apply for a working visa. I believe he has a work visa, he talked about on ITG. He also complained how much money it cost him and how it was wasted since he could have just played online for WCS. Still, there are future seasons which will be off line. So he does not expect to advance to the offline rounds? He looked pretty strong the last time I saw him... :o
He is more pissed that Koreans are getting to compete anywhere they want, but he has to fly to Korea to compete in the GSL. He came to NA because it was the best place for him to do well and be on the top of his game. I would be pissed too, since the last WCS was region locked.
I agree though, he looks like he could kick ass and take names.
|
On April 10 2013 23:04 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 22:59 zimms wrote:
So the average casual SC2 viewer is a racist?
They don't care about Koreans because they don't know them and see no difference in skill. They also don't really know foreign players, but it's just less frightening to watch somebody with the same skin color.
Seriously? My girlfriend and I don't really care about most the the Korean players over members of EG that are in NA. There are exceptions, like Liquid Hero, MKP and Crank. But the rest, I could give two shits about.
So it's Flash vs Life in a best of seven WCS Global finals and you don't give a shit about it because it's two Koreans?
That's pretty fucking sad.
|
On April 10 2013 23:05 opterown wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 23:04 Elp wrote:On April 10 2013 22:17 nojitosunrise wrote:On April 10 2013 22:09 ZenithM wrote:On April 10 2013 22:07 Champloo wrote:
This is so stupid, why didn't they just make it based on nationality like the last WCS?
At least Europe will have mainly European players in it, but NA is not even worth watching for me now, and I would definitely be pissed if I was a NA pro player. There are no true NA pro players, that's the problem.Semi-pros at best, but most of them are still studying or working part-time or something. And there never will be if already "established" teams can just shuttle korean talent into NA. There is absolutely no incentive for upcoming NA player to get "good" at starcraft. So how do you explain the existence of young upcoming Korean players? They grow up in a much tougher scene than NA or EU, and still there are several each year that make it into a pro team. What was their incentive to try despite of terrible odds? ST.Life may be the best example. He was 14 when he joined a pro team. You think the infrastructure or finances he had available before he joined a team were any different from 14 year olds from EU or NA? No, he was just a kid who showed exceptional talent and determination, and was picked up by a pro team which recognized his potential. From there he grew into a world class player. actually the korean support for esports is so much greater than the infrastructure in NA or EU, so mmm. no 14-year old in US will spend 80% of his free time on sc2 since there's no potential future for it there, unlike in KR
Added to that is the social stigma attached to it all on this side of the world
|
On April 10 2013 22:47 Benjamin99 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 22:44 dacimvrl wrote:On April 10 2013 22:42 Plansix wrote:On April 10 2013 22:40 dacimvrl wrote:On April 10 2013 22:34 Plansix wrote:On April 10 2013 22:31 mordk wrote:On April 10 2013 22:13 Benjamin99 wrote:On April 10 2013 22:07 DusTerr wrote:On April 10 2013 22:03 Benjamin99 wrote:On April 10 2013 21:59 oxxo wrote:
[quote]
Only if they just want easy competition/money. It's good for the NA scene in the long run to have actual competition. You post is preposterous. You are simply clueless. This got nothing to do with easy money. This is basically a death stroke to any NA player or any future talent from NA. I expect many NA teams will also avoid sc2. No Sponsors or teams will pay a dime to any NA player simply because the investment is not worth it. Sponsors and teams wants exposure And this actually gives the NA scene legitimacy AND exposure. How many viewers did the NA WCS get? What about any other NA held tournament without Koreans? There is only one thing that's stopped "NA only" events. SPONSORS wanted viewers. Viewers wanted Koreans. And that's not true at all. The reason NA WSC got less viewers was because MLG was at the same time. It was unfair for the NA WCS. Look at WCS EU one of the highest watched tournaments in 2012 and properly one of the best and most exciting On April 10 2013 22:13 mordk wrote:
That is not 100% sure. Viewers want a lot of things and its not just Koreans. My girlfriend only wants to watch games with players she likes, and the only Koreans she cares about are MKP and Liquid Hero. The rest are EG players and Gubby. People who claim that everyone wants Korean players are wrong.
Of course, nothing is absolute, but it's a good point. Viewership in all tournaments increases dramatically when there's good KR players involved. If a foreigner manages to go to the later stages then that's viewer count heaven, but foreinger only tournaments get a ton less viewers. Not true Mordk . Again look at WSC EU One tournament hardly means anything. For every case I can remember except WCS EU finals, tournaments heavily benefited in terms of viewer counts with the presence of KR players. No one is saying a few Korean players wouldn't be fine. Polt and Violet would be totally ok. But the top 16 shouldn't be Korean for an NA league, where the rules for NA players trying for the Korean league require them to be in Korea. Viewers or not, it is BS for the any player in NA who has been putting in any serious effort. The koreans are comming here for easy money because they are allowed qualify and play online. If they were required to play off line, in a studio, we should very few, if any. I welcome this. I honestly would rather watch top 16 filled w/ decent koreans like on the list. If I really wanted to watch some NA/EU master/gm noobs play, I would just watch my own replays... Yeah, well half my friends and girlfriend disagree. They couldn't give two shits about Korean players except MKP and Liquid Hero. That is like 10 viewer that will not be interested in this WCS if it is all Koreans. awesome, a whopping total of 10 viewers!! like Acrofales said, who would rather watch minigun vs catz when you can watch herO vs aLive. Please take you trolling elsewhere may I suggest Reddit Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 22:46 Tobblish wrote:On April 10 2013 22:42 Plansix wrote:On April 10 2013 22:40 dacimvrl wrote:On April 10 2013 22:34 Plansix wrote:On April 10 2013 22:31 mordk wrote:On April 10 2013 22:13 Benjamin99 wrote:On April 10 2013 22:07 DusTerr wrote:On April 10 2013 22:03 Benjamin99 wrote:On April 10 2013 21:59 oxxo wrote:
[quote]
Only if they just want easy competition/money. It's good for the NA scene in the long run to have actual competition. You post is preposterous. You are simply clueless. This got nothing to do with easy money. This is basically a death stroke to any NA player or any future talent from NA. I expect many NA teams will also avoid sc2. No Sponsors or teams will pay a dime to any NA player simply because the investment is not worth it. Sponsors and teams wants exposure And this actually gives the NA scene legitimacy AND exposure. How many viewers did the NA WCS get? What about any other NA held tournament without Koreans? There is only one thing that's stopped "NA only" events. SPONSORS wanted viewers. Viewers wanted Koreans. And that's not true at all. The reason NA WSC got less viewers was because MLG was at the same time. It was unfair for the NA WCS. Look at WCS EU one of the highest watched tournaments in 2012 and properly one of the best and most exciting On April 10 2013 22:13 mordk wrote:
That is not 100% sure. Viewers want a lot of things and its not just Koreans. My girlfriend only wants to watch games with players she likes, and the only Koreans she cares about are MKP and Liquid Hero. The rest are EG players and Gubby. People who claim that everyone wants Korean players are wrong.
Of course, nothing is absolute, but it's a good point. Viewership in all tournaments increases dramatically when there's good KR players involved. If a foreigner manages to go to the later stages then that's viewer count heaven, but foreinger only tournaments get a ton less viewers. Not true Mordk . Again look at WSC EU One tournament hardly means anything. For every case I can remember except WCS EU finals, tournaments heavily benefited in terms of viewer counts with the presence of KR players. No one is saying a few Korean players wouldn't be fine. Polt and Violet would be totally ok. But the top 16 shouldn't be Korean for an NA league, where the rules for NA players trying for the Korean league require them to be in Korea. Viewers or not, it is BS for the any player in NA who has been putting in any serious effort. The koreans are comming here for easy money because they are allowed qualify and play online. If they were required to play off line, in a studio, we should very few, if any. I welcome this. I honestly would rather watch top 16 filled w/ decent koreans like on the list. If I really wanted to watch some NA/EU master/gm noobs play, I would just watch my own replays... Yeah, well half my friends and girlfriend disagree. They couldn't give two shits about Korean players except MKP and Liquid Hero. That is like 10 viewer that will not be interested in this WCS if it is all Koreans. I wonder why those 10 people don't like to watch Koreans instead of Americans. Racists people I bet. Yes 90% fans of Starcraft are all racist you got us. Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 22:47 plasemeious wrote:On April 10 2013 22:33 EleanorRIgby wrote:
wtf with this region mean nothing, it is not WCS NA. They should just region lock it or the NA scene will shrink rather then grow. People are already tired of watching korean vs korean everything and want some country/continent only tournaments. I never understood this. I always preferred to see the better players playing as opposed to worse foreigners playing Ask a Malaga fan why he don't support Barcelona in football when they clearly got the best players. Welcome to the world of sports
Are there Malaga fans outside of Malaga? Except for the economic fugitives from Spain's impoverished south, I doubt it. Yet Barcelona is one of the most popular football clubs in the world. If Malaga plays against Levante, only Spaniards care (and ony a few of them). If Barcelona plays against Man U. half of the football-loving world tunes in (from Brazil to Japan).
I wonder which market Blizzard is more interested in?
Now of course you can say that Barcelona and Man U. only have that extraordinary selection of talent BECAUSE of teams like Malaga (or more likely Flamengos or Boca Juniors), but then we enter into another realm of discussion: how should eSports be promoted and encouraged to grow. Blizzard clearly thinks that putting the Barcelonas and Man U.'s in the spotlight will encourage more tournaments to give the Levantes of this world a chance, because sponsors are attracted, etc. etc. (trickle-down effect). People here seem to think that the grass-roots approach is better. I don't know, but I am sure that Blizzard has some clever market analysts working on it and they came up with this model, so lets try trusting them, hey?
In the meantime, we get to watch great games instead of a failure where the only exciting question is whether Idra bombs out in the first or second round.
|
what has that all with rasism to do like some people say ... its national pride and you wanna see people win you can imagine yourself in ... sure i am for europeans and sure i want foreigns team koreans ... still i love koreans and dont be rasism and can want them all lose 0-3 xD
|
On April 10 2013 22:52 mordk wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 22:47 Benjamin99 wrote:On April 10 2013 22:44 dacimvrl wrote:On April 10 2013 22:42 Plansix wrote:On April 10 2013 22:40 dacimvrl wrote:On April 10 2013 22:34 Plansix wrote:On April 10 2013 22:31 mordk wrote:On April 10 2013 22:13 Benjamin99 wrote:On April 10 2013 22:07 DusTerr wrote:On April 10 2013 22:03 Benjamin99 wrote:
[quote]
You post is preposterous. You are simply clueless. This got nothing to do with easy money. This is basically a death stroke to any NA player or any future talent from NA. I expect many NA teams will also avoid sc2. No Sponsors or teams will pay a dime to any NA player simply because the investment is not worth it. Sponsors and teams wants exposure And this actually gives the NA scene legitimacy AND exposure. How many viewers did the NA WCS get? What about any other NA held tournament without Koreans? There is only one thing that's stopped "NA only" events. SPONSORS wanted viewers. Viewers wanted Koreans. And that's not true at all. The reason NA WSC got less viewers was because MLG was at the same time. It was unfair for the NA WCS. Look at WCS EU one of the highest watched tournaments in 2012 and properly one of the best and most exciting On April 10 2013 22:13 mordk wrote:
That is not 100% sure. Viewers want a lot of things and its not just Koreans. My girlfriend only wants to watch games with players she likes, and the only Koreans she cares about are MKP and Liquid Hero. The rest are EG players and Gubby. People who claim that everyone wants Korean players are wrong.
Of course, nothing is absolute, but it's a good point. Viewership in all tournaments increases dramatically when there's good KR players involved. If a foreigner manages to go to the later stages then that's viewer count heaven, but foreinger only tournaments get a ton less viewers. Not true Mordk . Again look at WSC EU One tournament hardly means anything. For every case I can remember except WCS EU finals, tournaments heavily benefited in terms of viewer counts with the presence of KR players. No one is saying a few Korean players wouldn't be fine. Polt and Violet would be totally ok. But the top 16 shouldn't be Korean for an NA league, where the rules for NA players trying for the Korean league require them to be in Korea. Viewers or not, it is BS for the any player in NA who has been putting in any serious effort. The koreans are comming here for easy money because they are allowed qualify and play online. If they were required to play off line, in a studio, we should very few, if any. I welcome this. I honestly would rather watch top 16 filled w/ decent koreans like on the list. If I really wanted to watch some NA/EU master/gm noobs play, I would just watch my own replays... Yeah, well half my friends and girlfriend disagree. They couldn't give two shits about Korean players except MKP and Liquid Hero. That is like 10 viewer that will not be interested in this WCS if it is all Koreans. awesome, a whopping total of 10 viewers!! like Acrofales said, who would rather watch minigun vs catz when you can watch herO vs aLive. Please take you trolling elsewhere may I suggest Reddit On April 10 2013 22:46 Tobblish wrote:On April 10 2013 22:42 Plansix wrote:On April 10 2013 22:40 dacimvrl wrote:On April 10 2013 22:34 Plansix wrote:On April 10 2013 22:31 mordk wrote:On April 10 2013 22:13 Benjamin99 wrote:On April 10 2013 22:07 DusTerr wrote:On April 10 2013 22:03 Benjamin99 wrote:
[quote]
You post is preposterous. You are simply clueless. This got nothing to do with easy money. This is basically a death stroke to any NA player or any future talent from NA. I expect many NA teams will also avoid sc2. No Sponsors or teams will pay a dime to any NA player simply because the investment is not worth it. Sponsors and teams wants exposure And this actually gives the NA scene legitimacy AND exposure. How many viewers did the NA WCS get? What about any other NA held tournament without Koreans? There is only one thing that's stopped "NA only" events. SPONSORS wanted viewers. Viewers wanted Koreans. And that's not true at all. The reason NA WSC got less viewers was because MLG was at the same time. It was unfair for the NA WCS. Look at WCS EU one of the highest watched tournaments in 2012 and properly one of the best and most exciting On April 10 2013 22:13 mordk wrote:
That is not 100% sure. Viewers want a lot of things and its not just Koreans. My girlfriend only wants to watch games with players she likes, and the only Koreans she cares about are MKP and Liquid Hero. The rest are EG players and Gubby. People who claim that everyone wants Korean players are wrong.
Of course, nothing is absolute, but it's a good point. Viewership in all tournaments increases dramatically when there's good KR players involved. If a foreigner manages to go to the later stages then that's viewer count heaven, but foreinger only tournaments get a ton less viewers. Not true Mordk . Again look at WSC EU One tournament hardly means anything. For every case I can remember except WCS EU finals, tournaments heavily benefited in terms of viewer counts with the presence of KR players. No one is saying a few Korean players wouldn't be fine. Polt and Violet would be totally ok. But the top 16 shouldn't be Korean for an NA league, where the rules for NA players trying for the Korean league require them to be in Korea. Viewers or not, it is BS for the any player in NA who has been putting in any serious effort. The koreans are comming here for easy money because they are allowed qualify and play online. If they were required to play off line, in a studio, we should very few, if any. I welcome this. I honestly would rather watch top 16 filled w/ decent koreans like on the list. If I really wanted to watch some NA/EU master/gm noobs play, I would just watch my own replays... Yeah, well half my friends and girlfriend disagree. They couldn't give two shits about Korean players except MKP and Liquid Hero. That is like 10 viewer that will not be interested in this WCS if it is all Koreans. I wonder why those 10 people don't like to watch Koreans instead of Americans. Racists people I bet. Yes 90% fans of Starcraft are all racist you got us. 90%?!... I know you're just defending yourself from an even more ridiculous statement. But even then, even Proleague gets more viewers than the regular local tournament, everybody loves GSL, and most people watch MLGs to see good koreans win, and hopefully, some foreigner make a break, but the amount of people who stop watching once all foreigners are eliminated is really very small. People like the toughest competition. And I say this even if I believe this is the wrong approach for WCS, that was supposed to be a different type of tournament. You can watch foreigner tournaments, but people really don't, at least not the smaller league that hardly anyone watches. Even code A qualifiers with their insane time schedule and nameless koreans get a ton more viewers.
I absolutely get your point and I think there's a lot of truth to what you say!
But wouldn't you also agree that WCS Europe, the one outlier here, was also the only big "local tournament" with good production quality?
It wasn't tacked on to an event that even the organizer of both perceived as much bigger and more important (like WCS USA, WCS Canada and WCS NA were), it was hyped, it had almost all the best players from the region it was supposed to represent, it had an incredible venue and probably the best production of a premier foreign tournament thus far (from arguably the best production company).
If the WCS NA and WCS EU tournaments in those regions were region-locked by residency and had the same production value (which they should have, since Blizzard wants to make the WCS Series THE premier tournament series out there) and general standards as last year's WCS Europe, I do think viewer numbers would be quite a lot higher than viewer numbers from the events you are thinking of.
And it would be much easier to explain the forma and sell it to casuals, so that could bump viewer numbers by quite a bit as well, if you want to go there.
|
On April 10 2013 23:05 dacimvrl wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 23:03 opterown wrote:On April 10 2013 23:01 dacimvrl wrote:On April 10 2013 22:59 zimms wrote:
So the average casual SC2 viewer is a racist?
They don't care about Koreans because they don't know them and see no difference in skill. They also don't really know foreign players, but it's just less frightening to watch somebody with the same skin color.
Seriously? Not only that, but people seem to think that these casual viewers' opinions (who don't even play sc2) should weigh more than actual SC2 fans and should have the power to decide what they want to watch in sc2.. which is fucking retarded. the number of casual viewers far outweighs the number of dedicated fans. it is those casual viewers where we can expand our scene, it's not good to be a community of several thousand insular elitists imo you have the statistics somewhere? because I am pretty sure the casual viewers would rather spend weekends and evenings out camping or skiing than watching Life vs Flash (2 unknown players to them) last MLG, breaking the viewer record. Just saying.
Yes and people are saying that there are more viewers to be had who might be interested in an NA only event, held off line. Koreans could be there, but local players are also a keep part of pulling in people who may not have watched before.
|
I just don't understand why anyone wants to see less skilled players play. It's like watching little leaguers try and play in the majors.
|
Vatican City State582 Posts
On April 10 2013 23:05 opterown wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 23:04 Elp wrote:On April 10 2013 22:17 nojitosunrise wrote:On April 10 2013 22:09 ZenithM wrote:On April 10 2013 22:07 Champloo wrote:
This is so stupid, why didn't they just make it based on nationality like the last WCS?
At least Europe will have mainly European players in it, but NA is not even worth watching for me now, and I would definitely be pissed if I was a NA pro player. There are no true NA pro players, that's the problem.Semi-pros at best, but most of them are still studying or working part-time or something. And there never will be if already "established" teams can just shuttle korean talent into NA. There is absolutely no incentive for upcoming NA player to get "good" at starcraft. So how do you explain the existence of young upcoming Korean players? They grow up in a much tougher scene than NA or EU, and still there are several each year that make it into a pro team. What was their incentive to try despite of terrible odds? ST.Life may be the best example. He was 14 when he joined a pro team. You think the infrastructure or finances he had available before he joined a team were any different from 14 year olds from EU or NA? No, he was just a kid who showed exceptional talent and determination, and was picked up by a pro team which recognized his potential. From there he grew into a world class player. actually the korean support for esports is so much greater than the infrastructure in NA or EU, so mmm. no 14-year old in US will spend 80% of his free time on sc2 since there's no potential future for it there, unlike in KR Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 23:05 dacimvrl wrote:On April 10 2013 23:03 opterown wrote:On April 10 2013 23:01 dacimvrl wrote:On April 10 2013 22:59 zimms wrote:
So the average casual SC2 viewer is a racist?
They don't care about Koreans because they don't know them and see no difference in skill. They also don't really know foreign players, but it's just less frightening to watch somebody with the same skin color.
Seriously? Not only that, but people seem to think that these casual viewers' opinions (who don't even play sc2) should weigh more than actual SC2 fans and should have the power to decide what they want to watch in sc2.. which is fucking retarded. the number of casual viewers far outweighs the number of dedicated fans. it is those casual viewers where we can expand our scene, it's not good to be a community of several thousand insular elitists imo you have the statistics somewhere? because I am pretty sure the casual viewers would rather spend weekends and evenings out camping or skiing than watching Life vs Flash last MLG, breaking the viewer record. Just saying. casual viewers are what gave dota ~500,000 viewers, the average premier dota tournament does about as well as sc2, but with a proper story and decent foreigners to relate to, sc2 can reach those numbers too
and the statistics come from where? is there a survey or published stats you are quoting from or are you still pulling the numbers out of your #$@? just saying, you cannot compare the raw number of ppl who watch dota vs sc2. The player base..etc. of sc2 are much less. If you compare the percentages however, that would be similar I presume.
|
On April 10 2013 23:08 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 22:47 Benjamin99 wrote:On April 10 2013 22:44 dacimvrl wrote:On April 10 2013 22:42 Plansix wrote:On April 10 2013 22:40 dacimvrl wrote:On April 10 2013 22:34 Plansix wrote:On April 10 2013 22:31 mordk wrote:On April 10 2013 22:13 Benjamin99 wrote:On April 10 2013 22:07 DusTerr wrote:On April 10 2013 22:03 Benjamin99 wrote:
[quote]
You post is preposterous. You are simply clueless. This got nothing to do with easy money. This is basically a death stroke to any NA player or any future talent from NA. I expect many NA teams will also avoid sc2. No Sponsors or teams will pay a dime to any NA player simply because the investment is not worth it. Sponsors and teams wants exposure And this actually gives the NA scene legitimacy AND exposure. How many viewers did the NA WCS get? What about any other NA held tournament without Koreans? There is only one thing that's stopped "NA only" events. SPONSORS wanted viewers. Viewers wanted Koreans. And that's not true at all. The reason NA WSC got less viewers was because MLG was at the same time. It was unfair for the NA WCS. Look at WCS EU one of the highest watched tournaments in 2012 and properly one of the best and most exciting On April 10 2013 22:13 mordk wrote:
That is not 100% sure. Viewers want a lot of things and its not just Koreans. My girlfriend only wants to watch games with players she likes, and the only Koreans she cares about are MKP and Liquid Hero. The rest are EG players and Gubby. People who claim that everyone wants Korean players are wrong.
Of course, nothing is absolute, but it's a good point. Viewership in all tournaments increases dramatically when there's good KR players involved. If a foreigner manages to go to the later stages then that's viewer count heaven, but foreinger only tournaments get a ton less viewers. Not true Mordk . Again look at WSC EU One tournament hardly means anything. For every case I can remember except WCS EU finals, tournaments heavily benefited in terms of viewer counts with the presence of KR players. No one is saying a few Korean players wouldn't be fine. Polt and Violet would be totally ok. But the top 16 shouldn't be Korean for an NA league, where the rules for NA players trying for the Korean league require them to be in Korea. Viewers or not, it is BS for the any player in NA who has been putting in any serious effort. The koreans are comming here for easy money because they are allowed qualify and play online. If they were required to play off line, in a studio, we should very few, if any. I welcome this. I honestly would rather watch top 16 filled w/ decent koreans like on the list. If I really wanted to watch some NA/EU master/gm noobs play, I would just watch my own replays... Yeah, well half my friends and girlfriend disagree. They couldn't give two shits about Korean players except MKP and Liquid Hero. That is like 10 viewer that will not be interested in this WCS if it is all Koreans. awesome, a whopping total of 10 viewers!! like Acrofales said, who would rather watch minigun vs catz when you can watch herO vs aLive. Please take you trolling elsewhere may I suggest Reddit On April 10 2013 22:46 Tobblish wrote:On April 10 2013 22:42 Plansix wrote:On April 10 2013 22:40 dacimvrl wrote:On April 10 2013 22:34 Plansix wrote:On April 10 2013 22:31 mordk wrote:On April 10 2013 22:13 Benjamin99 wrote:On April 10 2013 22:07 DusTerr wrote:On April 10 2013 22:03 Benjamin99 wrote:
[quote]
You post is preposterous. You are simply clueless. This got nothing to do with easy money. This is basically a death stroke to any NA player or any future talent from NA. I expect many NA teams will also avoid sc2. No Sponsors or teams will pay a dime to any NA player simply because the investment is not worth it. Sponsors and teams wants exposure And this actually gives the NA scene legitimacy AND exposure. How many viewers did the NA WCS get? What about any other NA held tournament without Koreans? There is only one thing that's stopped "NA only" events. SPONSORS wanted viewers. Viewers wanted Koreans. And that's not true at all. The reason NA WSC got less viewers was because MLG was at the same time. It was unfair for the NA WCS. Look at WCS EU one of the highest watched tournaments in 2012 and properly one of the best and most exciting On April 10 2013 22:13 mordk wrote:
That is not 100% sure. Viewers want a lot of things and its not just Koreans. My girlfriend only wants to watch games with players she likes, and the only Koreans she cares about are MKP and Liquid Hero. The rest are EG players and Gubby. People who claim that everyone wants Korean players are wrong.
Of course, nothing is absolute, but it's a good point. Viewership in all tournaments increases dramatically when there's good KR players involved. If a foreigner manages to go to the later stages then that's viewer count heaven, but foreinger only tournaments get a ton less viewers. Not true Mordk . Again look at WSC EU One tournament hardly means anything. For every case I can remember except WCS EU finals, tournaments heavily benefited in terms of viewer counts with the presence of KR players. No one is saying a few Korean players wouldn't be fine. Polt and Violet would be totally ok. But the top 16 shouldn't be Korean for an NA league, where the rules for NA players trying for the Korean league require them to be in Korea. Viewers or not, it is BS for the any player in NA who has been putting in any serious effort. The koreans are comming here for easy money because they are allowed qualify and play online. If they were required to play off line, in a studio, we should very few, if any. I welcome this. I honestly would rather watch top 16 filled w/ decent koreans like on the list. If I really wanted to watch some NA/EU master/gm noobs play, I would just watch my own replays... Yeah, well half my friends and girlfriend disagree. They couldn't give two shits about Korean players except MKP and Liquid Hero. That is like 10 viewer that will not be interested in this WCS if it is all Koreans. I wonder why those 10 people don't like to watch Koreans instead of Americans. Racists people I bet. Yes 90% fans of Starcraft are all racist you got us. On April 10 2013 22:47 plasemeious wrote:On April 10 2013 22:33 EleanorRIgby wrote:
wtf with this region mean nothing, it is not WCS NA. They should just region lock it or the NA scene will shrink rather then grow. People are already tired of watching korean vs korean everything and want some country/continent only tournaments. I never understood this. I always preferred to see the better players playing as opposed to worse foreigners playing Ask a Malaga fan why he don't support Barcelona in football when they clearly got the best players. Welcome to the world of sports Are there Malaga fans outside of Malaga? Except for the economic fugitives from Spain's impoverished south, I doubt it. Yet Barcelona is one of the most popular football clubs in the world. If Malaga plays against Levante, only Spaniards care (and ony a few of them). If Barcelona plays against Man U. half of the football-loving world tunes in (from Brazil to Japan). I wonder which market Blizzard is more interested in? Now of course you can say that Barcelona and Man U. only have that extraordinary selection of talent BECAUSE of teams like Malaga (or more likely Flamengos or Boca Juniors), but then we enter into another realm of discussion: how should eSports be promoted and encouraged to grow. Blizzard clearly thinks that putting the Barcelonas and Man U.'s in the spotlight will encourage more tournaments to give the Levantes of this world a chance, because sponsors are attracted, etc. etc. (trickle-down effect). People here seem to think that the grass-roots approach is better. I don't know, but I am sure that Blizzard has some clever market analysts working on it and they came up with this model, so lets try trusting them, hey? In the meantime, we get to watch great games instead of a failure where the only exciting question is whether Idra bombs out in the first or second round.
AND STILL, as malaga fan you dont care anyone as much as malaga and so is it with pros, you have "your" players you love and like them more, if spanish league says "no more league just showmatches between topteams and then more championleague games etc" its good for alot guys alot love top games but your pissed as fuck ...
ps: as bvb fan i love malaga quotes xD
|
NA scene wont be destroyed because there's no NA scene. There are a good NA teams (Liquid, EG) there are great organisations (MLG), great casters (DayJ, Tasteosis, recently InControl) but there are not great players. Like i said before there is Scarlett, Huk, Goswser and Idra. Although Huk and Idra not in the top form and Scarlett and Goswser aren't korean killers too. So theres nothing to crush.
NA is a great market with great marketing potential but wo/ players. Now with koreans they have players too, so i belive its better for NA in general. For few NA GMs who are not real pros anyway it may be worse, but if you wanna be professional in any sport it has to be your only job not a hobby.
|
On April 10 2013 23:05 opterown wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 23:04 Elp wrote:On April 10 2013 22:17 nojitosunrise wrote:On April 10 2013 22:09 ZenithM wrote:On April 10 2013 22:07 Champloo wrote:
This is so stupid, why didn't they just make it based on nationality like the last WCS?
At least Europe will have mainly European players in it, but NA is not even worth watching for me now, and I would definitely be pissed if I was a NA pro player. There are no true NA pro players, that's the problem.Semi-pros at best, but most of them are still studying or working part-time or something. And there never will be if already "established" teams can just shuttle korean talent into NA. There is absolutely no incentive for upcoming NA player to get "good" at starcraft. So how do you explain the existence of young upcoming Korean players? They grow up in a much tougher scene than NA or EU, and still there are several each year that make it into a pro team. What was their incentive to try despite of terrible odds? ST.Life may be the best example. He was 14 when he joined a pro team. You think the infrastructure or finances he had available before he joined a team were any different from 14 year olds from EU or NA? No, he was just a kid who showed exceptional talent and determination, and was picked up by a pro team which recognized his potential. From there he grew into a world class player. actually the korean support for esports is so much greater than the infrastructure in NA or EU, so mmm. no 14-year old in US will spend 80% of his free time on sc2 since there's no potential future for it there, unlike in KR Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 23:05 dacimvrl wrote:On April 10 2013 23:03 opterown wrote:On April 10 2013 23:01 dacimvrl wrote:On April 10 2013 22:59 zimms wrote:
So the average casual SC2 viewer is a racist?
They don't care about Koreans because they don't know them and see no difference in skill. They also don't really know foreign players, but it's just less frightening to watch somebody with the same skin color.
Seriously? Not only that, but people seem to think that these casual viewers' opinions (who don't even play sc2) should weigh more than actual SC2 fans and should have the power to decide what they want to watch in sc2.. which is fucking retarded. the number of casual viewers far outweighs the number of dedicated fans. it is those casual viewers where we can expand our scene, it's not good to be a community of several thousand insular elitists imo you have the statistics somewhere? because I am pretty sure the casual viewers would rather spend weekends and evenings out camping or skiing than watching Life vs Flash last MLG, breaking the viewer record. Just saying. casual viewers are what gave dota ~500,000 viewers, the average premier dota tournament does about as well as sc2, but with a proper story and decent foreigners to relate to, sc2 can reach those numbers too
But i think we are misinterpreting what the "casuals" really want.
I doubt many American casual viewer would enjoy watching Vibe beat Insur ( 2nd place WCS NA and 5th place WCS NA).
But if Vibe plays against and beat Bomber, then hell yeah the casuals ( and even non-casuals) would be excited.But sadly this is getting harder and rarer. Which is why something drastic like this is needed.
The Koreans are needed to give legitimacy to the tournament imo, at least in NA even if as villains. There are other benefits that i have mentioned repeatedly earlier as well ( infrastructure,skill transfer, etc etc).
|
On April 10 2013 23:07 Elairec wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 23:05 opterown wrote:On April 10 2013 23:04 Elp wrote:On April 10 2013 22:17 nojitosunrise wrote:On April 10 2013 22:09 ZenithM wrote:On April 10 2013 22:07 Champloo wrote:
This is so stupid, why didn't they just make it based on nationality like the last WCS?
At least Europe will have mainly European players in it, but NA is not even worth watching for me now, and I would definitely be pissed if I was a NA pro player. There are no true NA pro players, that's the problem.Semi-pros at best, but most of them are still studying or working part-time or something. And there never will be if already "established" teams can just shuttle korean talent into NA. There is absolutely no incentive for upcoming NA player to get "good" at starcraft. So how do you explain the existence of young upcoming Korean players? They grow up in a much tougher scene than NA or EU, and still there are several each year that make it into a pro team. What was their incentive to try despite of terrible odds? ST.Life may be the best example. He was 14 when he joined a pro team. You think the infrastructure or finances he had available before he joined a team were any different from 14 year olds from EU or NA? No, he was just a kid who showed exceptional talent and determination, and was picked up by a pro team which recognized his potential. From there he grew into a world class player. actually the korean support for esports is so much greater than the infrastructure in NA or EU, so mmm. no 14-year old in US will spend 80% of his free time on sc2 since there's no potential future for it there, unlike in KR Added to that is the social stigma attached to it all on this side of the world
As if that stigma would not exists in Korea. I think the most important reason why there are so many up-and-comers in Korea and so few outside is due to the teams. If you want to take gaming seriously, you go for the tryouts. If you show enough promise, then a team will pick you up.
In that case, you also don't really need to care about the social stigma because you can claim to be part of a professional team (even though you aren't even close to being on the a-Team), and most importantly because you are mainly surrounded by people who share your passion.
|
On April 10 2013 23:06 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 23:04 Plansix wrote:On April 10 2013 22:59 zimms wrote:
So the average casual SC2 viewer is a racist?
They don't care about Koreans because they don't know them and see no difference in skill. They also don't really know foreign players, but it's just less frightening to watch somebody with the same skin color.
Seriously? My girlfriend and I don't really care about most the the Korean players over members of EG that are in NA. There are exceptions, like Liquid Hero, MKP and Crank. But the rest, I could give two shits about. So it's Flash vs Life in a best of seven WCS Global finals and you don't give a shit about it because it's two Koreans? That's pretty fucking sad.
I cared because the games were awesome and I liked watching. I also wanted to HotS at high level. But I did not really care who won. Now, if Liquid Hero had been up there, I would have cared a lot more.
Its about levels of caring and how much time I have. I only have enough time to watch players I care about. The leafs in the back yard aren't going to rake themselves.
|
On April 10 2013 23:09 Kylo55 wrote:
NA scene wont be destroyed because there's no NA scene. There are a good NA teams (Liquid, EG) there are great organisations (MLG), great casters (DayJ, Tasteosis, recently InControl) but there are not great players. Like i said before there is Scarlett, Huk, Goswser and Idra. Although Huk and Idra not in the top form and Scarlett and Goswser aren't korean killers too. So theres nothing to crush.
NA is a great market with great marketing potential but wo/ players. Now with koreans they have players too, so i belive its better for NA in general. For few NA GMs who are not real pros anyway it may be worse, but if you wanna be professional in any sport it has to be your only job not a hobby.
Kind of hard for it to be your only job if you're not making enough money to sustain a life ...
|
On April 10 2013 23:09 Klipsys wrote:
I just don't understand why anyone wants to see less skilled players play. It's like watching little leaguers try and play in the majors.
I could not agree more. I wish new players to start but not in "the best tournament in the world". You don't start football career by winning Champions League.
|
On April 10 2013 23:04 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 22:59 zimms wrote:
So the average casual SC2 viewer is a racist?
They don't care about Koreans because they don't know them and see no difference in skill. They also don't really know foreign players, but it's just less frightening to watch somebody with the same skin color.
Seriously? My girlfriend and I don't really care about most the the Korean players over members of EG that are in NA. There are exceptions, like Liquid Hero, MKP and Crank. But the rest, I could give two shits about.
And that is why the pros and Blizzard could give two shits about you and your girlfriend.
I don't understand why people don't want to see the best Starcraft 2 players in the world, regardless of where they are from, play?
|
On April 10 2013 22:53 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 22:44 Passion wrote:On April 10 2013 22:23 avilo wrote:
This is pretty terrible lmao. The entire point of WCS and this initiative was to get other countries/regions to have an ecosystem of their own, as well as infuse prize money that those players in those regions could feasibly win.
Instead, what we have set up is a system where blizzard basically said, "here koreans, free moneys, foreigners...screw you." Perhaps that was not their intention, but that's going to be the result.
So what is the incentive here for people to train, and invest their own money to go to events, etc? You know a korean with 10x the training, a team house, team backing will be at the event.
Oh wait, I got that wrong. Instead of a few like previously, now it's going to be 15+ all here to take your region's cash lol.
This is insanely stupid. Imagine the Olympics allowing NBA teams to play "in any region." I can imagine it now.
"Welcome to the 2016 Olympic basketball finals! Your finalists, China's LA lakers, Russia's Boston Celtics, Canada's Clippers," wait a minute...what happened to the other countries basketball teams?
How does this prevent the various regions to have their own ecosystem in any way? How does Blizzard offering "foreigners" (though I don't understand the relevance of "foreigners" in this context) a chance to win more money by playing a game translate into "foreigner... screw you"? What the incentive is? Good question. However, given the amount of cash available, I sure do hope these people don't train and go to events to make a living, as 99% of them will never manage such, despite the extra money Blizzard is putting on the table. I hope that it's, like in any sport, the fact that they enjoy the game and enjoy being competitive. Training to earn cash only becomes relevant after you've gone professional. Your region's cash? First of all, what the hell makes you feel so entitled to that money? Though more importantly maybe, why should people from with different nationalities not be allowed to participate in a tournament located in "your region"? Sure it's good to also have national championships, however, this never was intended to be such. NBA teams at the Olympics? You really have a hard time understanding competitive sports, don't you? Besides, if you look at other sports like you do, this luckily happens all the time. Half of the average football squad consists of foreign players. They improve quality, mix things up and keep the leagues interesting. I'm pretty certain the premier league wouldn't be the most entertaining competition in the world if it weren't for this. Obviously Blizzard isn't doing thing perfectly, but it seems a good effort at setting up a global league system, something that has direly been missing in SC2. It's basically the next step towards having a truly professional competitive scene. It's good (EVEN if only for the extra cash spent). What ever mistakes they make, they'll learn from those. All this bitching and whining is totally uncalled for (without meaning to say we shouldn't give feedback, once we bump into issues, not before) - even though I realise it was inevitable, given how entitled and narrow minded this community has seem to become. It is not rocket science to understand. Blizzard intended this to help stimulate each region's player base, not turn NA into Korea2, and EU into Korea3. You're one of those people that has no clue. You're blanket calling people "entitled and narrow minded." You don't see the larger picture, that this does not help facilitate NA/EU growth. Apparently, you also have no understanding of real sports or progression systems. You don't join a local basketball qualifer tournament and have to play against Lebron James straight away if you're a basketball player. That would be ridiculous. You start with your local region, you win that, you go to regionals, then national level, pro level, etc. There has to be a progression. Yes, professional sports have athletes from other countries, but you're dellusional if you think that players from other countries are joining another countries NATIONAL TEAM. Sports do not work like that. http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/1c1slt/my_views_on_wcsregional_based_leagues_region/Read Catz post from reddit. He basically covers and echos the thoughts of rational minded people in the foreign scene.
Thanks for the linked articles. Very interesting read and definitely very true. IMO, regional locks AND bigger prize pool for Korea and even a bigger number of qualified players from Korea as well are a must.
Look at FIFA World CUP. 32 teams and Europe gets the biggest number, because football is most developed there. Sure, there are guaranteed spots for each continent, but the gross is Europe followed by South America.
Blizzard should just copy a working model, not invent an obvious faulty new one.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
