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On April 10 2013 20:53 Maesy wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 20:44 YuiHirasawa wrote:
Grzegorz Komincz @mouzMaNa
I wish people would consider Koreans appearance in WCS NA/EU as a motivation to harder practice than whining about it not being fair.
That's the way to go. And a lot of EU players think the same. No wonder why they always perform better than their NA counterparts. Yeah. That's great for MaNa when he's already an incredible player with a name for himself and quite the achieving in earnings. He's probably going to beat a lot of the Koreans anyways and be just fine. It's easy enough for him to stand up and say shit like this to seem like a badass and increase his image when everyone else has legitimate complaints.
So whats stopping 'new Mana's' from entering Dreamhacks/IEM's etc. Mana didn't had WCS seasons to play in when he made a name for himself at Dreamhack. Each region will still have a qualifier/challenger division where people can play in and learn from, thats a big advantage for upcoming talented players.
Players like Mana should (well would make most sense) be the guys who make the most noise cause he gets a tougher competition for making a lot of money. For the 'less known/smaller' guys it doesn't change much, they still have to play all the top players in Europe were they loose 9 times out of 10 from anyway and a few Koreans doesn't change that fact.
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On April 10 2013 21:13 baldgye wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 21:10 sc2superfan101 wrote:
No my analogy is to explain why I have little sympathy for someone who doesn't succeed because of outside factors like money. It's basically me telling you and everyone else that the "Oh these poor NA players!" or any other emotional argument isn't going to work on me. I work too goddamn hard at a job I don't really like to barely make ends meet to be moved by someone who *gasp* might have to do the same.
The real argument is that this will actually be better for prospective foreign players anyway. Either they work out a way to make it, or they fall away. Those who make it will be that much stronger and more worthy, and their success will mean that much more. Those who don't make it will have tried and failed, and learned something valuable in the process. It will be painful, it will be unpleasant, but in the long term, it is the only legitimate way. reading your posts you seem to be of the thinking that; 1. Your life sucks, so everyone elses should 2. The BW scene that had basically no western followers is what sc2 should aim to be They both seem like pretty legit arguments.
My life is amazing. I have so many opportunities that the vast majority of human beings will never have. I consider my job I don't really like to be a blessing. Untold millions would have killed to get a decent job that pays enough for them to live comfortably, if frugally. You're missing the point entirely. I would love to have a world where everybody succeeds at their dream. But that isn't the real world. Either you hand people success, and they never grow; or you force them to fight tooth and nail for success with the very real prospect of failure. Only in the second scenario can you separate the chaff from the wheat, so to speak. Only in the second scenario do people actually grow and learn something.
I actually think the proposed region-locks would result in BW 2.0 before turning into something worse: a dead game and dead scene.
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so wheres mkp gonna go? na or eu? :D bets open now
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On April 10 2013 20:06 dynwar7 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 19:57 dynwar7 wrote:
Could someone help me with this.
What exactly does it mean that Koreans are moving to NA/EU? Does it mean they will not be allowed to play in their original location? So for example Polt will not be allowed to play in Korea again, as his place is now NA?
Secondly, do they physically move and live there, to EU or NA, or do they just simply play there? Please help me someone, I am so lost in SC2 scene since that epic announcement from Blizz...WCS Korea, WCS EU, WCS NA etc...
Still no help :'(
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Cool with some competition for EU, however I think only MC or MMA stand a chance.
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On April 10 2013 21:12 Benjamin99 wrote:
Actually the more I think about the more I think its a good idea if the NA players who live in NA should just boycott the NA WSC to send a clear message to blizzard
and reveal that they are only bitchy and cocky because they dont get the money?
You can already observe this behaviour in a nut shell when you take a look at the EG house. I mean they have a team house but instead of practising together, sharing builds and work like a team, they are just streaming for themselves over VERY VERY long periods of the day (well which is fine for itself because in that way they can make some money maybe to help to maintain the teamhouse) and it seems that they got a really poor atmosphere at the teamhouse.
Stephano once said on his stream: "I whish I had friends on the US that I can practice with". I mean: HELLO you are in a TEAMhouse ? Shouldnt he practice with his TEAMmates?
I Like the Idea of EG having a house where players live together but they are not using this infrastructure they have set up.
Its nothing near effective like the Korean team houses.
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On April 10 2013 21:14 nihlon wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 21:10 evergreensc wrote:
My issue with this has nothing to do with current pros. I don't really care about that.
My issue with this is that I thought WCS would be about encouraging the growth of the future scene. I thought that after a year or two of a region-locked, high-quality WCS, we could have had a much larger viewer base, better/more established team houses in NA/EU, a higher level of competition in NA/EU, more opportunity for players to devote themselves to the game, and eventually a World Championship that wasn't completely dominated by Koreans. Instead it seems to be about pumping more money into the scene for more of the same Korean domination. We have GSL Code S to see who's the best Korean, and by extension, the best player in the world right now. I don't care about a bigger, more complicated GSL Code S. It's far from guaranteed that hard region locks would evolve the EU and NA scene. In fact I think it's entirely possible it would do the opposite. Yes we should have tournaments where foreigners get to compete against foreigners but I don't think the WCS should be about that. Sure it's not a perfect format but I feel people are focusing on the wrong things here.
My evidence for it evolving the scene is a little shaky, but I think ROOT and CLG both looking into making permanent team houses in NA is a pretty good pointer that it should be an excellent thing for the scene.
Also, foreign fans have just about nothing to cheer for right now. EG-TL in Proleague, Axiom-Acer in GSTL (sort of, mostly Koreans), and... anything else? Not really. A scene needs fans. Fans need someone to cheer for. I find that a lot of people are much more willing to get into a scene if they have a local player, or team, to really cheer for than if all the best players are people on the other side of the world with no personal connection to them.
I mean, hell, look at the NA soccer/football scene. It's TINY compared to global, because they're not competitive, so there are no fans, so there's little money in the scene, so all the best players go off and play elsewhere, so there are no fans, etc.
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On April 10 2013 21:10 Type|NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 21:05 mikkmagro wrote:On April 10 2013 20:57 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 10 2013 20:26 SinCitta wrote:On April 10 2013 19:49 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 10 2013 19:42 Godwrath wrote:On April 10 2013 19:35 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 10 2013 19:27 Godwrath wrote:On April 10 2013 19:18 sc2superfan101 wrote:On April 10 2013 19:10 budar wrote:
[quote]
(emphasis mine) -> That's the whole point. I also don't really care where someone is from if they can play great games, but there are a lot of people who chose their favorite players based on other criteria, and that's actually perfectly fine and happens in all sports. Especially if you're cheering for your hometown/homecountry representative, it's really completely understandable and desirable. And the point that you are missing is that this is killing that. So you might get some great games in the first season (in the offline event, doubt the online part will be too hot after a few weeks of initial interest), but how long will that continue if viewership and general interest in the game declines.
Just look at the LoL and DotA2 scenes... The situation in terms of skill is actually really similar to SC2. North american teams are behind EU teams who are behind Asian teams, with a handful of Stephano-like exceptions. But these scenes are completely separated except for THE big tournament where all roads lead to. The NA LCS is getting great numbers even though those teams are actually pretty weak right now. But hey, people care about them, they know these players from their stream etc.
Anyway, it remains to be seen how this will turn out. I might actually watch the NA one now whereas without the Koreans I probably wouldn't have. But that's me and you and people like that. What about the "average Joe" browsing twitch and eating Hot Pockets?
I still don't get how this kills the scene though... The only change is no more WCS and more money being funneled into the scene. You could argue that it doesn't advance the NA/EU scene as much as it could have, but then I would again disagree. In the region locked scenario, NA/EU would just stagnate and remain eternally inferior. Foreigners would have no incentive to reach the level to where they could beat Koreans. Was the old WCS really all that successful? I never bothered watching any of it so I don't know. Because WCS was an attempt to grow other region scene outside of korea, and this pretty much does the oppossite. Korean players won't be moving, but just playing online while mantaining their practice on their team houses and friends on korea. I don't think people would see so much troublewith koreans moving, if they were really moving. Specially if the different regions started to have some kind of hubs centralized for the teams to grow around. What grows the scene is INVESTMENT and DETERMINATION. All people who read CatZ post on reddit and think its clever really need to put some more thought into it. Korea didn't start with an eSports scene. They did build it with a huge playerbase. Teams / amateurs put up houses to practice in and pay fees to play there. Its not like they magically appeared and it was SKTelecomT1, CJ Entus, T8, STX SouL appearing from nowhere.In Europe and NA sponsors do more or less see 'us' / teams as product placement in eSports, but do they really care and support the scene because the scene is important? Don't know about that. In Korea its good image / good investment for a sponsor to invest into a starleague, into a team, because its not just product placement but overall public relation. I mentioned that a powerhouse like EG with potentially the money should host a house for 16 players, let them pay a certain amount so you can cover the costs at least by 70-90% so they have a house to practice in and food. Give them a schedule and potentially some experiecend coach, doesn't need to be a professional Korean one. The scene will grow based on something like this. Money ofcourse bringts interest, but if you really think it would improve the scene that you can easily get money in NA/EU you are wrong. Progamers wouldn't practice harder, just because they can get money more easily now. If they want to win money right now, they at least need to compete with Koreans - while if you make it region locked - banned Koreans - you can just stick at your level and yes, you can win money - you can sustain yourself, but is that motivation to increase skill and put more into it? Is it reason for more determination? I don't think so. Cheap pros look for easy money, while others look for skill. I understand all progamers and their arguments about money and that determination alone isn't enough to cover costs and put food on the table, but there's more to "give us money, we play" than some people make it sound. Good think its not nation-locked, Koreans should be there and play, the level will increase regardless of them playing only against each other or ladder , but at least we will see foreigners training and trying to get and steal games from Koreans. If we end up with 2 foreigners that are worthy in WCS global finals I am very happy. If we see an all Korean Final, also good. Don't know whats wrong with people nowadays, NA / EU people act like they put more on the line being a progamer than someone from Korea does, when the truth is that they put everything on the line and practice hard. Lots of them don't finish school (?) dont start job training etc. How many people / progamers do you think failed on their way to being successful? Now think about how much sallary EU/NA players get compared to an amateur Korean who PAYS to play in a good training environment.. I don't see where we disagree to be honest. Investment is not only about the teams, most of the stuff you are speaking about korea and kespa teams have the advantadge of a centralized hub, and that requires investment of course, and it's what i am speaking about. This doesn't only come from the teams, but some sort of centralized league for different regions where those team have the motivation to invest. Most of the rest of your post is player bashing so i will just ignore it. Edit - And by the way, i haven't read catz (or anyone post) in the matter, i don't even use reddit. Sorry it wasn't directly posted refering to you. It got a bit longer than I usually planned to reply. I think we disagree with the fact that you would want to build a league without Korean competition in it, while you make the statement it would grow the scene, I argue it would hurt eSport. Banning a nation is never a good thing. What do you think about a region lock based on residency like the EPS? To make some annoying sports anology, we love it when international stars come to the Bundesliga: Lewandowski, Robben, Raul, van der Vaart, Pep Guardiola. They love them and identify themselves with them independent of nationality. English Premier league is full of international players and everybody is happy. But they want to see them for three or more years and be a part of the league, not just play half a season to grab money and go. In the German basketball league we had a lot of "cheap Americans" that didn't make it to the NBA and just changed team every (half-)season. Zero identification with the player, zero identification with the team. I am thrilled to see Mvp and MC in EU, but it would suck if they played online and come here for two weeks and go. I want to see them stay here for a while, see them improve, see them struggle, see them adapt to life in Europe. The foreseen problem with NA is that it has acceptable latency for Korean players and most of them have nothing to do with NA. Worst case, they just play their stuff online, go over there, lock themselves up while eating only Korean food, win money, go back. Zero identifcation with the player, zero identification with the league. EPS doesn't ban a nation from participating. Your main residence for the year must be Germany which is fine. Its a local / regional league and not a MAJOR event with hundretthousand fucking $ as price money. As I said I'm all for regional and local leagues with a fair amount of price money but hosting such a major event and locking out a nation is silly. ESL Pro Series had Naniwa, Cloud, DemusliM, ReaL, Phoenix, Monchi... all non-German players that can participate because they decided to participate and move. People here ask to not allow those Koreans to move and lock them in their region, which is stupid. No, actually, what most people expect is for it to be at least like EPS - that player is playing from NA/EU - whatever his nationality. I don't think anyone has a problem with ForGG or viOlet playing in EU/NA, but this will be played online, and the Koreans will be playing in a foreign league whilst enjoying the vastly superior infrastructure at home. Besides not knowing if they will move or not; they do give up on the best conditions to play the tournament. While having the better environment and being the better player, their playground is worse. EPS is regional and cannot be compared, because of its status. Its not a major event and especially not a qualifier for an even bigger event (at least most of the time). I can guarantee you if it would be the qualifier for a 250 000$ event, German EPS players would play EPS Nordic, Spain or whatever EPS to increase their chances.
Why would it be wrong to have a major tournament restricted by region? Isn't that what what LCS is? or Champions League for football? It's not like there aren't other huge international tournaments (NASL, IEM, MLG, DH). Don't forget that these tournaments are replacing WCS USA, WCS Canada, WCS North America and WCS South America etc. Hell, GSL was always regional, foreigners could never compete from the comfort of their bedroom could they? They'd have to sacrifice a fuckload to travel and live there to try and qualify. But in this case, they're not only getting invites, they can even play from their team house, whilst practicing hard for Proleague and GSTL (with its increased importance and prizepool). I would have absolutely no problem with it if all those Koreans actually lived in the US to participate. There will still be more points for the top Koreans to qualify to BlizzCon and the Global Finals, as they will be getting extra points from the other non WCS international tournaments. I am really hoping however, that GOM and OSL will add their own prizepool to WCS Korea, that way it would be fair.
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Oh man Koreans are going to smash foreigners!
Wait, how is that any different from before? Maybe NA/EU will stop being pathetic with a new infusion of competition. Either way I personally don't care. I just want to see the best people play.
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On April 10 2013 21:18 dynwar7 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 20:06 dynwar7 wrote:On April 10 2013 19:57 dynwar7 wrote:
Could someone help me with this.
What exactly does it mean that Koreans are moving to NA/EU? Does it mean they will not be allowed to play in their original location? So for example Polt will not be allowed to play in Korea again, as his place is now NA?
Secondly, do they physically move and live there, to EU or NA, or do they just simply play there? Please help me someone, I am so lost in SC2 scene since that epic announcement from Blizz...WCS Korea, WCS EU, WCS NA etc... Still no help :'(
Well there is not much too explain honestly  There are 3 seasons, in each season there are 4 tournaments. 1 for each region and 1 for best players from the 3 previous ones. You can basicly forget about the words Korea/EU/NA it just shows on which server they will play and when the offline part will be held. And at the end of the year there will be one more with best of those 3 bigger ones.
As simple as that
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On April 10 2013 21:18 dynwar7 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 20:06 dynwar7 wrote:On April 10 2013 19:57 dynwar7 wrote:
Could someone help me with this.
What exactly does it mean that Koreans are moving to NA/EU? Does it mean they will not be allowed to play in their original location? So for example Polt will not be allowed to play in Korea again, as his place is now NA?
Secondly, do they physically move and live there, to EU or NA, or do they just simply play there? Please help me someone, I am so lost in SC2 scene since that epic announcement from Blizz...WCS Korea, WCS EU, WCS NA etc... Still no help :'(
The players pick a region to be locked to for the year, Polt can't go back to Korea to play GSL until 2014.
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Fenrax
United States5018 Posts
On April 10 2013 21:18 dynwar7 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 20:06 dynwar7 wrote:On April 10 2013 19:57 dynwar7 wrote:
Could someone help me with this.
What exactly does it mean that Koreans are moving to NA/EU? Does it mean they will not be allowed to play in their original location? So for example Polt will not be allowed to play in Korea again, as his place is now NA?
Secondly, do they physically move and live there, to EU or NA, or do they just simply play there? Please help me someone, I am so lost in SC2 scene since that epic announcement from Blizz...WCS Korea, WCS EU, WCS NA etc... Still no help :'(
- Not sure about part one. But I think if you play in one qualifier you are banned for the other qualifiers. So I think MC is not allowed to play in the first WCS Europe? Would nee confimation on this.
-You should physically move to the region you play in or you suffer extreme lag.
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what the hell with happen to proleague and gstl, with almost the entire eg-tl and axiom-acer teams moving out??
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Europe: 100% Koreanplayers -.-
:D
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On April 10 2013 21:17 sc2superfan101 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 21:13 baldgye wrote:On April 10 2013 21:10 sc2superfan101 wrote:
No my analogy is to explain why I have little sympathy for someone who doesn't succeed because of outside factors like money. It's basically me telling you and everyone else that the "Oh these poor NA players!" or any other emotional argument isn't going to work on me. I work too goddamn hard at a job I don't really like to barely make ends meet to be moved by someone who *gasp* might have to do the same.
The real argument is that this will actually be better for prospective foreign players anyway. Either they work out a way to make it, or they fall away. Those who make it will be that much stronger and more worthy, and their success will mean that much more. Those who don't make it will have tried and failed, and learned something valuable in the process. It will be painful, it will be unpleasant, but in the long term, it is the only legitimate way. reading your posts you seem to be of the thinking that; 1. Your life sucks, so everyone elses should 2. The BW scene that had basically no western followers is what sc2 should aim to be They both seem like pretty legit arguments. My life is amazing. I have so many opportunities that the vast majority of human beings will never have. I consider my job I don't really like to be a blessing. Untold millions would have killed to get a decent job that pays enough for them to live comfortably, if frugally. You're missing the point entirely. I would love to have a world where everybody succeeds at their dream. But that isn't the real world. Either you hand people success, and they never grow; or you force them to fight tooth and nail for success with the very real prospect of failure. Only in the second scenario can you separate the chaff from the wheat, so to speak. Only in the second scenario do people actually grow and learn something. I actually think the proposed region-locks would result in BW 2.0 before turning into something worse: a dead game and dead scene.
How so?
At the moment because of BW the Korean scene is insane, everything is centered on Seoul the infrastructure is insane, they have coaches lots of team houses all practicing and working together with there own domestic league where they all play and practice for.
Outside of Korea there isn't any of that because the rest of the world is pretty big, and so you instead have random team houses here and there with no real relation to anything in particular and little to no infrastructure. Most non-Korean pro's don't live in team houses and don't have access to the environment Korean players do.
By allowing Koreans to play in the WSC outside of Korean your killing any chance of that infrastructure to be built up meaning that foreigners for the most part have no realistic chance of being able to compete with Koreans.
You should read Catz post if you havn't already, it really highlights everything that is fundamentally wrong with how this is going.
http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/1c1slt/my_views_on_wcsregional_based_leagues_region/
If they allowed region locks, you would still have Koreans coming out of Korean for 'easy' money in tournaments etc and the GSL/Pro League would still be the highest level, but it would give the rest of the world the chance to catch up
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On April 10 2013 21:18 dynwar7 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 20:06 dynwar7 wrote:On April 10 2013 19:57 dynwar7 wrote:
Could someone help me with this.
What exactly does it mean that Koreans are moving to NA/EU? Does it mean they will not be allowed to play in their original location? So for example Polt will not be allowed to play in Korea again, as his place is now NA?
Secondly, do they physically move and live there, to EU or NA, or do they just simply play there? Please help me someone, I am so lost in SC2 scene since that epic announcement from Blizz...WCS Korea, WCS EU, WCS NA etc... Still no help :'(
I'm pretty sure that this basically means what you originally said. Once a player chooses a region, they are more or less locked in that region (for WCS events). I don't know for how long though, but at least for the season.
Online qualifiers and online tournament up to Ro16, then a LAN at a specific location. So many players could, theoretically, play online until traveling for about 2 weeks to play in the Ro16 and onward. As of yet there is no region lock, meaning that a KR player can play in NA, and visa versa (lol, like that will happen).
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I think the European scene will be really really close. I think NA will get much much better, but I think the second season is going to bone most of the NA players. Give it a year and I think we'll eventually get to the place where everything improves though.
Sucks about all the drama, it was definitely not as smoothly done as it could have been. Sort of wish they'd just had announced it and started it next season or something :-/
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why does blizzard think the koreans will help the growth of the local players but not getting dragged and play worse because of the lower skill level?
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At least we'll get great games in ALL qualifiers now.
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On April 10 2013 21:02 sc2superfan101 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 20:57 StarVe wrote:On April 10 2013 20:51 sc2superfan101 wrote:On April 10 2013 20:48 CajunMan wrote:On April 10 2013 20:39 sc2superfan101 wrote:On April 10 2013 20:31 CajunMan wrote:On April 10 2013 20:06 sc2superfan101 wrote:On April 10 2013 19:58 CajunMan wrote:On April 10 2013 19:41 sc2superfan101 wrote:On April 10 2013 19:35 Type|NarutO wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On April 10 2013 19:27 Godwrath wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 19:18 sc2superfan101 wrote:On April 10 2013 19:10 budar wrote:On April 10 2013 18:52 sc2superfan101 wrote:On April 10 2013 18:47 Musicus wrote:On April 10 2013 18:41 sc2superfan101 wrote:On April 10 2013 18:37 playa wrote:On April 10 2013 18:34 sc2superfan101 wrote:
Can someone please explain how this ruins anything?
Keep in mind that a GSL style NA/EU tournament with similar prize money didn't exist before this. Keep in mind that every country had a WCS last season and Koreans were only playing in the Korean WCS. Thus, non Koreans could actually win something... So now they actually have to play better players to win something... Oh no! I'm sorry but I'm having a real hard time sympathizing with all this entitlement coming out of the foreign scene right now. They all have been code S players at some point in the past year most making deep runs. To tell me that list isn't among the best Koreans out there is just a flat lie. There will always be international tournaments with tons of top koreans stomping foreigners, but many wanted WCS to be the starcraft olympics. National champions being sent to the world final etc. Would you not enjoy that? Some regional competission leading up to a world final on top of all the international stuff? Not really. I'd probably watch the finals just for the Koreans though. I am one of those rarities that likes Korean players more for both personality and skill level. (emphasis mine) -> That's the whole point. I also don't really care where someone is from if they can play great games, but there are a lot of people who chose their favorite players based on other criteria, and that's actually perfectly fine and happens in all sports. Especially if you're cheering for your hometown/homecountry representative, it's really completely understandable and desirable. And the point that you are missing is that this is killing that. So you might get some great games in the first season (in the offline event, doubt the online part will be too hot after a few weeks of initial interest), but how long will that continue if viewership and general interest in the game declines. Just look at the LoL and DotA2 scenes... The situation in terms of skill is actually really similar to SC2. North american teams are behind EU teams who are behind Asian teams, with a handful of Stephano-like exceptions. But these scenes are completely separated except for THE big tournament where all roads lead to. The NA LCS is getting great numbers even though those teams are actually pretty weak right now. But hey, people care about them, they know these players from their stream etc. Anyway, it remains to be seen how this will turn out. I might actually watch the NA one now whereas without the Koreans I probably wouldn't have. But that's me and you and people like that. What about the "average Joe" browsing twitch and eating Hot Pockets? I still don't get how this kills the scene though... The only change is no more WCS and more money being funneled into the scene. You could argue that it doesn't advance the NA/EU scene as much as it could have, but then I would again disagree. In the region locked scenario, NA/EU would just stagnate and remain eternally inferior. Foreigners would have no incentive to reach the level to where they could beat Koreans. Was the old WCS really all that successful? I never bothered watching any of it so I don't know. Because WCS was an attempt to grow other region scene outside of korea, and this pretty much does the oppossite. Korean players won't be moving, but just playing online while mantaining their practice on their team houses and friends on korea. I don't think people would see so much troublewith koreans moving, if they were really moving. Specially if the different regions started to have some kind of hubs centralized for the teams to grow around. What grows the scene is INVESTMENT and DETERMINATION. All people who read CatZ post on reddit and think its clever really need to put some more thought into it. Korea didn't start with an eSports scene. They did build it with a huge playerbase. Teams / amateurs put up houses to practice in and pay fees to play there. Its not like they magically appeared and it was SKTelecomT1, CJ Entus, T8, STX SouL appearing from nowhere. In Europe and NA sponsors do more or less see 'us' / teams as product placement in eSports, but do they really care and support the scene because the scene is important? Don't know about that. In Korea its good image / good investment for a sponsor to invest into a starleague, into a team, because its not just product placement but overall public relation. I mentioned that a powerhouse like EG with potentially the money should host a house for 16 players, let them pay a certain amount so you can cover the costs at least by 70-90% so they have a house to practice in and food. Give them a schedule and potentially some experiecend coach, doesn't need to be a professional Korean one. The scene will grow based on something like this. Money ofcourse bringts interest, but if you really think it would improve the scene that you can easily get money in NA/EU you are wrong. Progamers wouldn't practice harder, just because they can get money more easily now. If they want to win money right now, they at least need to compete with Koreans - while if you make it region locked - banned Koreans - you can just stick at your level and yes, you can win money - you can sustain yourself, but is that motivation to increase skill and put more into it? Is it reason for more determination? I don't think so. Cheap pros look for easy money, while others look for skill. I understand all progamers and their arguments about money and that determination alone isn't enough to cover costs and put food on the table, but there's more to "give us money, we play" than some people make it sound. Good think its not nation-locked, Koreans should be there and play, the level will increase regardless of them playing only against each other or ladder , but at least we will see foreigners training and trying to get and steal games from Koreans. If we end up with 2 foreigners that are worthy in WCS global finals I am very happy. If we see an all Korean Final, also good. Don't know whats wrong with people nowadays, NA / EU people act like they put more on the line being a progamer than someone from Korea does, when the truth is that they put everything on the line and practice hard. Lots of them don't finish school (?) dont start job training etc. How many people / progamers do you think failed on their way to being successful? Now think about how much sallary EU/NA players get compared to an amateur Korean who PAYS to play in a good training environment.. Also towards the statement of CLGs manager @ CatZ skype: How ridiculous is that. If I were to sponsor a team and would see so much lack of determination and sense for competition I'd immediately quit them. Hilarious - how did they want to GROW TALENT to begin with when they only jump in and expect victories? Talents don't win from the start - you need to put time and money into it and it EVENTUALLY pays off, nothing guaranteed. Now a handfull of Koreans comes over that are good but they are human and you can potentially beat them and they just quit? Well right there you got the reason why Korea is superior to EU/US. Its right there, just look at it. So much this. I cannot for the life of me understand why these altruists who were gonna just pour money into the scene would run away because 10 Koreans moved into the scene. Obviously they weren't all that dedicated to the idea. I like how you say it like its 10 random B teamers that have never won anything. These are 10 of the BEST code S players or team aces one has won 3 gsls so ya excuse me if I'm a bit upset that the Korean SCSI won't actually have the BEST Koreans in it. Instead they come here and kill our scene that is getting off the ground finally an opportunity to raise better players finally a chance for those who play 10 hours a day to get noticed and get to make a living then be raised to compete on the highest level. Only 3 of them are Code S... The BEST Koreans, excepting one or two, aren't going anywhere as of yet. I agree that it sucks for foreigners who were expecting an easier way. But the easy way is not the way to balance the scenes. If this shit ain't brutal then there will be no way that foreigners can ever compete. Trust me guys, I'm a little worried too. I was absolutely expecting one of my favorite players in the world to be able to qualify easy, and now he might not. But if he doesn't than that is his fault. Not Blizzards, not Koreans. His. I understand that NA/EU need more infrastructure. But you know what, judging by this thread. It isn't just infrastructure. It's attitude. LOL and it is his fault he doesn't have a training house where he can play as much as he needs everyday with food and living taken care of. So sorry he probably has to work part to full time then on top of that most likely has to go to school because he is given no opportunity. The best player in na will stay the way they are not because of lack of determination or will but the fact that they have more responsibility and less time in the day. How many people you think would give it all up for 3 meals a day and a computer? I know a Damn lot of them but that is not even an option its a spit in the face to call these players out like they are sitting with the same exact settings and life of these Koreans and expect the same results. And by letting these top players come over instead of opening up options you are hamstringing them before anything even happens. Actually this guy doesn't work or go to school  Do Koreans have less responsibilities? Do their days last more than 24 hours? They have infrastructure, yes, and that is a big part of it. It also seems they have, in general, a more solid attitude about the game and the sacrifices it requires. I'm not calling the players out, I'm just calling it how I see it. If they want to succeed, than they have to work extremely hard. And even then success is not guaranteed. I don't see how actually guaranteeing success by banning all of the remotely good players from the scene is in any way going to keep them from treating it like a part-time thing though. They're options are more limited now, and the competition is fiercer. IMO, this is exactly how it should be. Life is tough, and if you aren't gonna be more tough than maybe professional athletics isn't for you. Sad fact, but there it is. So we admit the na scenes short comings and that even if they have a chance not to succeed they have a Fucking chance. But we are going to still blame na players lack of attitude and there poor assess for being unable to afford full time play. EVERYBODY POINT AND LAUGH AT THE PEASANTS AHAHAHAHAHA You know what's funny. I always wanted to ride BMX and dirt-bikes competitively. Only daddy didn't have enough money for either. So while I had friends who got to try it out... I never did. Some of my friends even made it into the competitive scene. And poor little me, my parents couldn't afford it so I never even got a chance. It was around that time that I learned two things: 1) Life isn't fair. 2) Complaining that life isn't fair is the best way to never succeed. So your advice is, if you have a dream and you can't make it happen at that moment due to reasons that aren't up to you, just quit instead of hoping that circumstances will change. I mean, it makes sense, but I don't see that as the attitude that people want foreigners to have. My advice is that any prospective pro-athlete better understand two things: 1) Professional athletics is a rich man's game. 2) Success should never be guaranteed, or even made easier. If anything, it should be made more difficult.
Yes, and we're all shaped by our experiences in our cultural environment, it's just that I don't see it working that well long-term.
I'm German and football is incredibly big here, our national team was doing terribly 15-10 years ago, they were too old, played an outdated style that was abysmal to look at and it seemed like they wouldn't be competitive for a long time.
The German football federation saw that a change was needed and made youth adacemies with a very high standard mandatory for every team in the 1st and 2nd division of our league. Before that the German youth teams were quite bad, talent scouting was underdeveloped, coaching sucked and relied on old-fashioned tactics, big talents went to waste because they were unrecognize and young players had very little chances to make their way into the first teams because they relied much more on buying foreign players, talents from other countries as well as experienced ones because not even the teams themselves trusted their youth teams.
Nowadays we have established one of the best youth systems and German players are sought-after all over the world again, the average age of the teams in our leagues has only gone down and down. Talent is developed and fostered - although not perfect - it's so much more than before. The national team is praised by many others for their skill and can once again compete with the best. Other countries are trying to emulate the system Germany used to rebuilt themselves as a footballing nation now.
Blizzard could have initiated something similar for the StarCraft scene with WCS. Instead it looks like their plan to improve players and the scenes itself is like every team in Germany back in 2000 deciding to take the 20 million euros they had set aside for their planned youth academies and using it to acquire a ton of Brazilian star players.
Now what I fear is that Blizzard and fans like you will look at how the scene has developed in a year or two and ask "Why the fuck has none of the players on our youth teams reached the level of the Brazilian World Champions we bought last year? I guess they didn't sacrifice enough and failed to train as hard as they should have done.".
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