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On April 10 2013 20:57 pms wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 20:55 baldgye wrote:On April 10 2013 20:54 pms wrote:On April 10 2013 20:52 Kylo55 wrote:On April 10 2013 20:46 Dodgin wrote:On April 10 2013 20:44 YuiHirasawa wrote:
Grzegorz Komincz @mouzMaNa
I wish people would consider Koreans appearance in WCS NA/EU as a motivation to harder practice than whining about it not being fair.
That's the way to go. And a lot of EU players think the same. No wonder why they always perform better than their NA counterparts. Opinions seem pretty split, I saw Ret tweeting similar things as Mana but Dimaga responded to that tweet agreeing with Catz instead. Well its not that spilt then  When you look at recent results Mana and Ret are doing quite good, while Dimaga doesnt not even mention Catz :D If you are confident, and wanna improve you like this, if you just want to make some money of your hobby then you dont. As a player ocf, viewers opinions have different points. Viewers will get happier seeing their players improving. ...and by that you mean being wrecked by Koreans constantly while SC2 slowly moves back to how it was in the BW days when it was insane when a foreigner took a game from a Korean, but hey least they are getting better, right? No. Actually we were on this path in the last two years (remember Jinro, Naniwa, Stephano? where is their skill now in comparison with Koreans?). If the previous system was so great, then why the gap between foreigners and Koreans was increasing? Can somebody explain it to me?
Stephano had break out tourneys, this gave him motivation, and people invested in him to travel to events etc. Why would anyone invest in some kid who works his ass off only to lose to jaedong in the first round of WCS?
WCS is meant to grow regions, give players motivation and experience of competing on a big stage, not a place for koreans honed in prohouses to come and clean up
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On April 10 2013 20:57 StarVe wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 20:51 sc2superfan101 wrote:On April 10 2013 20:48 CajunMan wrote:On April 10 2013 20:39 sc2superfan101 wrote:On April 10 2013 20:31 CajunMan wrote:On April 10 2013 20:06 sc2superfan101 wrote:On April 10 2013 19:58 CajunMan wrote:On April 10 2013 19:41 sc2superfan101 wrote:On April 10 2013 19:35 Type|NarutO wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On April 10 2013 19:27 Godwrath wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 19:18 sc2superfan101 wrote:On April 10 2013 19:10 budar wrote:On April 10 2013 18:52 sc2superfan101 wrote:On April 10 2013 18:47 Musicus wrote:On April 10 2013 18:41 sc2superfan101 wrote:On April 10 2013 18:37 playa wrote:On April 10 2013 18:34 sc2superfan101 wrote:
Can someone please explain how this ruins anything?
Keep in mind that a GSL style NA/EU tournament with similar prize money didn't exist before this. Keep in mind that every country had a WCS last season and Koreans were only playing in the Korean WCS. Thus, non Koreans could actually win something... So now they actually have to play better players to win something... Oh no! I'm sorry but I'm having a real hard time sympathizing with all this entitlement coming out of the foreign scene right now. They all have been code S players at some point in the past year most making deep runs. To tell me that list isn't among the best Koreans out there is just a flat lie. There will always be international tournaments with tons of top koreans stomping foreigners, but many wanted WCS to be the starcraft olympics. National champions being sent to the world final etc. Would you not enjoy that? Some regional competission leading up to a world final on top of all the international stuff? Not really. I'd probably watch the finals just for the Koreans though. I am one of those rarities that likes Korean players more for both personality and skill level. (emphasis mine) -> That's the whole point. I also don't really care where someone is from if they can play great games, but there are a lot of people who chose their favorite players based on other criteria, and that's actually perfectly fine and happens in all sports. Especially if you're cheering for your hometown/homecountry representative, it's really completely understandable and desirable. And the point that you are missing is that this is killing that. So you might get some great games in the first season (in the offline event, doubt the online part will be too hot after a few weeks of initial interest), but how long will that continue if viewership and general interest in the game declines. Just look at the LoL and DotA2 scenes... The situation in terms of skill is actually really similar to SC2. North american teams are behind EU teams who are behind Asian teams, with a handful of Stephano-like exceptions. But these scenes are completely separated except for THE big tournament where all roads lead to. The NA LCS is getting great numbers even though those teams are actually pretty weak right now. But hey, people care about them, they know these players from their stream etc. Anyway, it remains to be seen how this will turn out. I might actually watch the NA one now whereas without the Koreans I probably wouldn't have. But that's me and you and people like that. What about the "average Joe" browsing twitch and eating Hot Pockets? I still don't get how this kills the scene though... The only change is no more WCS and more money being funneled into the scene. You could argue that it doesn't advance the NA/EU scene as much as it could have, but then I would again disagree. In the region locked scenario, NA/EU would just stagnate and remain eternally inferior. Foreigners would have no incentive to reach the level to where they could beat Koreans. Was the old WCS really all that successful? I never bothered watching any of it so I don't know. Because WCS was an attempt to grow other region scene outside of korea, and this pretty much does the oppossite. Korean players won't be moving, but just playing online while mantaining their practice on their team houses and friends on korea. I don't think people would see so much troublewith koreans moving, if they were really moving. Specially if the different regions started to have some kind of hubs centralized for the teams to grow around. What grows the scene is INVESTMENT and DETERMINATION. All people who read CatZ post on reddit and think its clever really need to put some more thought into it. Korea didn't start with an eSports scene. They did build it with a huge playerbase. Teams / amateurs put up houses to practice in and pay fees to play there. Its not like they magically appeared and it was SKTelecomT1, CJ Entus, T8, STX SouL appearing from nowhere. In Europe and NA sponsors do more or less see 'us' / teams as product placement in eSports, but do they really care and support the scene because the scene is important? Don't know about that. In Korea its good image / good investment for a sponsor to invest into a starleague, into a team, because its not just product placement but overall public relation. I mentioned that a powerhouse like EG with potentially the money should host a house for 16 players, let them pay a certain amount so you can cover the costs at least by 70-90% so they have a house to practice in and food. Give them a schedule and potentially some experiecend coach, doesn't need to be a professional Korean one. The scene will grow based on something like this. Money ofcourse bringts interest, but if you really think it would improve the scene that you can easily get money in NA/EU you are wrong. Progamers wouldn't practice harder, just because they can get money more easily now. If they want to win money right now, they at least need to compete with Koreans - while if you make it region locked - banned Koreans - you can just stick at your level and yes, you can win money - you can sustain yourself, but is that motivation to increase skill and put more into it? Is it reason for more determination? I don't think so. Cheap pros look for easy money, while others look for skill. I understand all progamers and their arguments about money and that determination alone isn't enough to cover costs and put food on the table, but there's more to "give us money, we play" than some people make it sound. Good think its not nation-locked, Koreans should be there and play, the level will increase regardless of them playing only against each other or ladder , but at least we will see foreigners training and trying to get and steal games from Koreans. If we end up with 2 foreigners that are worthy in WCS global finals I am very happy. If we see an all Korean Final, also good. Don't know whats wrong with people nowadays, NA / EU people act like they put more on the line being a progamer than someone from Korea does, when the truth is that they put everything on the line and practice hard. Lots of them don't finish school (?) dont start job training etc. How many people / progamers do you think failed on their way to being successful? Now think about how much sallary EU/NA players get compared to an amateur Korean who PAYS to play in a good training environment.. Also towards the statement of CLGs manager @ CatZ skype: How ridiculous is that. If I were to sponsor a team and would see so much lack of determination and sense for competition I'd immediately quit them. Hilarious - how did they want to GROW TALENT to begin with when they only jump in and expect victories? Talents don't win from the start - you need to put time and money into it and it EVENTUALLY pays off, nothing guaranteed. Now a handfull of Koreans comes over that are good but they are human and you can potentially beat them and they just quit? Well right there you got the reason why Korea is superior to EU/US. Its right there, just look at it. So much this. I cannot for the life of me understand why these altruists who were gonna just pour money into the scene would run away because 10 Koreans moved into the scene. Obviously they weren't all that dedicated to the idea. I like how you say it like its 10 random B teamers that have never won anything. These are 10 of the BEST code S players or team aces one has won 3 gsls so ya excuse me if I'm a bit upset that the Korean SCSI won't actually have the BEST Koreans in it. Instead they come here and kill our scene that is getting off the ground finally an opportunity to raise better players finally a chance for those who play 10 hours a day to get noticed and get to make a living then be raised to compete on the highest level. Only 3 of them are Code S... The BEST Koreans, excepting one or two, aren't going anywhere as of yet. I agree that it sucks for foreigners who were expecting an easier way. But the easy way is not the way to balance the scenes. If this shit ain't brutal then there will be no way that foreigners can ever compete. Trust me guys, I'm a little worried too. I was absolutely expecting one of my favorite players in the world to be able to qualify easy, and now he might not. But if he doesn't than that is his fault. Not Blizzards, not Koreans. His. I understand that NA/EU need more infrastructure. But you know what, judging by this thread. It isn't just infrastructure. It's attitude. LOL and it is his fault he doesn't have a training house where he can play as much as he needs everyday with food and living taken care of. So sorry he probably has to work part to full time then on top of that most likely has to go to school because he is given no opportunity. The best player in na will stay the way they are not because of lack of determination or will but the fact that they have more responsibility and less time in the day. How many people you think would give it all up for 3 meals a day and a computer? I know a Damn lot of them but that is not even an option its a spit in the face to call these players out like they are sitting with the same exact settings and life of these Koreans and expect the same results. And by letting these top players come over instead of opening up options you are hamstringing them before anything even happens. Actually this guy doesn't work or go to school  Do Koreans have less responsibilities? Do their days last more than 24 hours? They have infrastructure, yes, and that is a big part of it. It also seems they have, in general, a more solid attitude about the game and the sacrifices it requires. I'm not calling the players out, I'm just calling it how I see it. If they want to succeed, than they have to work extremely hard. And even then success is not guaranteed. I don't see how actually guaranteeing success by banning all of the remotely good players from the scene is in any way going to keep them from treating it like a part-time thing though. They're options are more limited now, and the competition is fiercer. IMO, this is exactly how it should be. Life is tough, and if you aren't gonna be more tough than maybe professional athletics isn't for you. Sad fact, but there it is. So we admit the na scenes short comings and that even if they have a chance not to succeed they have a Fucking chance. But we are going to still blame na players lack of attitude and there poor assess for being unable to afford full time play. EVERYBODY POINT AND LAUGH AT THE PEASANTS AHAHAHAHAHA You know what's funny. I always wanted to ride BMX and dirt-bikes competitively. Only daddy didn't have enough money for either. So while I had friends who got to try it out... I never did. Some of my friends even made it into the competitive scene. And poor little me, my parents couldn't afford it so I never even got a chance. It was around that time that I learned two things: 1) Life isn't fair. 2) Complaining that life isn't fair is the best way to never succeed. So your advice is, if you have a dream and you can't make it happen at that moment due to reasons that aren't up to you, just quit instead of hoping that circumstances will change. I mean, it makes sense, but I don't see that as the attitude that people want foreigners to have.
My advice is that any prospective pro-athlete better understand two things:
1) Professional athletics is a rich man's game.
2) Success should never be guaranteed, or even made easier. If anything, it should be made more difficult.
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On April 10 2013 20:58 mongmong wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 20:53 sage_francis wrote:On April 10 2013 20:49 xAdra wrote:
I am one who doesn't give two shits about the "foreigner scene", but I don't like this for another simple reason:
GSL is gutted, it's no longer the greatest collection of skill in the world any longer. I mean, with mvp, MC, MMA, Hyun, Taeja, HerO and others dispersed all over the world, what remains of the GSL? flash? fantasy? life? BISU??!!! Youre asking for too much, Bisu will never make it through qualifiers. Its his fate If you wanna see him again in individual leagues, then MSL needs to revive
haha why are u so serious? 
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On April 10 2013 20:54 Derez wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 20:48 CajunMan wrote:On April 10 2013 20:39 sc2superfan101 wrote:On April 10 2013 20:31 CajunMan wrote:On April 10 2013 20:06 sc2superfan101 wrote:On April 10 2013 19:58 CajunMan wrote:On April 10 2013 19:41 sc2superfan101 wrote:On April 10 2013 19:35 Type|NarutO wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On April 10 2013 19:27 Godwrath wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 19:18 sc2superfan101 wrote:On April 10 2013 19:10 budar wrote:On April 10 2013 18:52 sc2superfan101 wrote:On April 10 2013 18:47 Musicus wrote:On April 10 2013 18:41 sc2superfan101 wrote:On April 10 2013 18:37 playa wrote:On April 10 2013 18:34 sc2superfan101 wrote:
Can someone please explain how this ruins anything?
Keep in mind that a GSL style NA/EU tournament with similar prize money didn't exist before this. Keep in mind that every country had a WCS last season and Koreans were only playing in the Korean WCS. Thus, non Koreans could actually win something... So now they actually have to play better players to win something... Oh no! I'm sorry but I'm having a real hard time sympathizing with all this entitlement coming out of the foreign scene right now. They all have been code S players at some point in the past year most making deep runs. To tell me that list isn't among the best Koreans out there is just a flat lie. There will always be international tournaments with tons of top koreans stomping foreigners, but many wanted WCS to be the starcraft olympics. National champions being sent to the world final etc. Would you not enjoy that? Some regional competission leading up to a world final on top of all the international stuff? Not really. I'd probably watch the finals just for the Koreans though. I am one of those rarities that likes Korean players more for both personality and skill level. (emphasis mine) -> That's the whole point. I also don't really care where someone is from if they can play great games, but there are a lot of people who chose their favorite players based on other criteria, and that's actually perfectly fine and happens in all sports. Especially if you're cheering for your hometown/homecountry representative, it's really completely understandable and desirable. And the point that you are missing is that this is killing that. So you might get some great games in the first season (in the offline event, doubt the online part will be too hot after a few weeks of initial interest), but how long will that continue if viewership and general interest in the game declines. Just look at the LoL and DotA2 scenes... The situation in terms of skill is actually really similar to SC2. North american teams are behind EU teams who are behind Asian teams, with a handful of Stephano-like exceptions. But these scenes are completely separated except for THE big tournament where all roads lead to. The NA LCS is getting great numbers even though those teams are actually pretty weak right now. But hey, people care about them, they know these players from their stream etc. Anyway, it remains to be seen how this will turn out. I might actually watch the NA one now whereas without the Koreans I probably wouldn't have. But that's me and you and people like that. What about the "average Joe" browsing twitch and eating Hot Pockets? I still don't get how this kills the scene though... The only change is no more WCS and more money being funneled into the scene. You could argue that it doesn't advance the NA/EU scene as much as it could have, but then I would again disagree. In the region locked scenario, NA/EU would just stagnate and remain eternally inferior. Foreigners would have no incentive to reach the level to where they could beat Koreans. Was the old WCS really all that successful? I never bothered watching any of it so I don't know. Because WCS was an attempt to grow other region scene outside of korea, and this pretty much does the oppossite. Korean players won't be moving, but just playing online while mantaining their practice on their team houses and friends on korea. I don't think people would see so much troublewith koreans moving, if they were really moving. Specially if the different regions started to have some kind of hubs centralized for the teams to grow around. What grows the scene is INVESTMENT and DETERMINATION. All people who read CatZ post on reddit and think its clever really need to put some more thought into it. Korea didn't start with an eSports scene. They did build it with a huge playerbase. Teams / amateurs put up houses to practice in and pay fees to play there. Its not like they magically appeared and it was SKTelecomT1, CJ Entus, T8, STX SouL appearing from nowhere. In Europe and NA sponsors do more or less see 'us' / teams as product placement in eSports, but do they really care and support the scene because the scene is important? Don't know about that. In Korea its good image / good investment for a sponsor to invest into a starleague, into a team, because its not just product placement but overall public relation. I mentioned that a powerhouse like EG with potentially the money should host a house for 16 players, let them pay a certain amount so you can cover the costs at least by 70-90% so they have a house to practice in and food. Give them a schedule and potentially some experiecend coach, doesn't need to be a professional Korean one. The scene will grow based on something like this. Money ofcourse bringts interest, but if you really think it would improve the scene that you can easily get money in NA/EU you are wrong. Progamers wouldn't practice harder, just because they can get money more easily now. If they want to win money right now, they at least need to compete with Koreans - while if you make it region locked - banned Koreans - you can just stick at your level and yes, you can win money - you can sustain yourself, but is that motivation to increase skill and put more into it? Is it reason for more determination? I don't think so. Cheap pros look for easy money, while others look for skill. I understand all progamers and their arguments about money and that determination alone isn't enough to cover costs and put food on the table, but there's more to "give us money, we play" than some people make it sound. Good think its not nation-locked, Koreans should be there and play, the level will increase regardless of them playing only against each other or ladder , but at least we will see foreigners training and trying to get and steal games from Koreans. If we end up with 2 foreigners that are worthy in WCS global finals I am very happy. If we see an all Korean Final, also good. Don't know whats wrong with people nowadays, NA / EU people act like they put more on the line being a progamer than someone from Korea does, when the truth is that they put everything on the line and practice hard. Lots of them don't finish school (?) dont start job training etc. How many people / progamers do you think failed on their way to being successful? Now think about how much sallary EU/NA players get compared to an amateur Korean who PAYS to play in a good training environment.. Also towards the statement of CLGs manager @ CatZ skype: How ridiculous is that. If I were to sponsor a team and would see so much lack of determination and sense for competition I'd immediately quit them. Hilarious - how did they want to GROW TALENT to begin with when they only jump in and expect victories? Talents don't win from the start - you need to put time and money into it and it EVENTUALLY pays off, nothing guaranteed. Now a handfull of Koreans comes over that are good but they are human and you can potentially beat them and they just quit? Well right there you got the reason why Korea is superior to EU/US. Its right there, just look at it. So much this. I cannot for the life of me understand why these altruists who were gonna just pour money into the scene would run away because 10 Koreans moved into the scene. Obviously they weren't all that dedicated to the idea. I like how you say it like its 10 random B teamers that have never won anything. These are 10 of the BEST code S players or team aces one has won 3 gsls so ya excuse me if I'm a bit upset that the Korean SCSI won't actually have the BEST Koreans in it. Instead they come here and kill our scene that is getting off the ground finally an opportunity to raise better players finally a chance for those who play 10 hours a day to get noticed and get to make a living then be raised to compete on the highest level. Only 3 of them are Code S... The BEST Koreans, excepting one or two, aren't going anywhere as of yet. I agree that it sucks for foreigners who were expecting an easier way. But the easy way is not the way to balance the scenes. If this shit ain't brutal then there will be no way that foreigners can ever compete. Trust me guys, I'm a little worried too. I was absolutely expecting one of my favorite players in the world to be able to qualify easy, and now he might not. But if he doesn't than that is his fault. Not Blizzards, not Koreans. His. I understand that NA/EU need more infrastructure. But you know what, judging by this thread. It isn't just infrastructure. It's attitude. LOL and it is his fault he doesn't have a training house where he can play as much as he needs everyday with food and living taken care of. So sorry he probably has to work part to full time then on top of that most likely has to go to school because he is given no opportunity. The best player in na will stay the way they are not because of lack of determination or will but the fact that they have more responsibility and less time in the day. How many people you think would give it all up for 3 meals a day and a computer? I know a Damn lot of them but that is not even an option its a spit in the face to call these players out like they are sitting with the same exact settings and life of these Koreans and expect the same results. And by letting these top players come over instead of opening up options you are hamstringing them before anything even happens. Actually this guy doesn't work or go to school Do Koreans have less responsibilities? Do their days last more than 24 hours? They have infrastructure, yes, and that is a big part of it. It also seems they have, in general, a more solid attitude about the game and the sacrifices it requires. I'm not calling the players out, I'm just calling it how I see it. If they want to succeed, than they have to work extremely hard. And even then success is not guaranteed. I don't see how actually guaranteeing success by banning all of the remotely good players from the scene is in any way going to keep them from treating it like a part-time thing though. They're options are more limited now, and the competition is fiercer. IMO, this is exactly how it should be. Life is tough, and if you aren't gonna be more tough than maybe professional athletics isn't for you. Sad fact, but there it is. So we admit the na scenes short comings and that even if they have a chance not to succeed they have a Fucking chance. But we are going to still blame na players lack of attitude and there poor assess for being unable to afford full time play. EVERYBODY POINT AND LAUGH AT THE PEASANTS AHAHAHAHAHA How is being a NA/EU pro hard compared to being a KR pro? Play at code B level as a foreigner, and you'll get picked up by a team for a low salary. Play at code A level and you can make a good living with it. KR scene is much harder to make your living out of. All progamers (all people in professional sports really) face a risk when trying to make it, the problem is that most of the NA/EU scene doesn't know when to call it quits. Sure, you can be a foreign pro and complain about koreans 'ruining' your career, but most of those players wouldn't even finish top-16 in an all foreigner event. Somehow certain players feel entitled to prizemoney when they've quite literally never ever been competitive.
I never once mentioned a good living in fact I said people would play full time for 3 meals and a bed basically. Sure is love to make it feasible to live off gaming and this was an opportunity but Koreans unlike anywhere else have the option to play for nothing be given food and a home so long as they are decent by there standards and practice there ass off. I would kill for that opportunity.
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On April 10 2013 18:09 bbm wrote:
Now imagine GSL without all those guys.
:<
You can play NA and Code S just not Code A if I got Huks tweets right.
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CALLED IT! When the fuck is Blizz. finally going to listen to personalities who support regional leagues! Like CatZ for example. It´s is rediculous.
1. Na is unawinnable for foreigners as of right now.
2. EU is close to impossible to win, atleast a good placement is reachable.
3. GSL without so many important characters? These are people who make a ton of people watch GSL in the first place.
I don't doubt that the skill and the prestige of GSL is going to grow nonetheless, but it will be a hell of a lot less interesting without lots of my favorite players......
4. Stephano couldn't have picked a better time to retire lolz
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On April 10 2013 20:38 Dvriel wrote:
Nice.Me too.Platinum and got job,so no hope for me going to GSL,but I like to watch SC2.The same way I enjoy the Champions League and dont care about the japanese or USA soccer league,but I dont WANT or EXPECT any Japanese or African team to be better than Barcelona or Chelsea.Its no sense.We cant hail mediocrity.Only the best and the ones to work hard deserve to be in the spotlight,so there is no problem for me to see MMA vs MVP in the EU finals.It will always be better than Idra vs Kas....
They (the european top football teams) get shitloads of money, are backed up by a long history of enjoying football and buy the talented players from the other regions. Now how should the other countries should ever get to this level without massive money investment? They can't keep their own talent and the talent in the bigger leagues has a harder time as well (Why search for homegrown players when you just can buy others?).
Yet in an environment that kinda restricts the amount of money you put into foreign players (because the clubs can't afford the gazillions of € to get any top player), there is lots of talent. Look at the Bundesliga. The young players are taken into youth academies and because they have a chance to actually see playtime, they improve. This helps the team, the viewers and the players themselves.
Not to mention that you can even live from your salary even in lower leagues where you DON'T play against top star clubs.
In SC2 there is no reason to do this for a team. The amount of possible players is small (bad reputation in society, entrycost of time/money) so its not worth it to open up a practise house. That leaves ladder and to make any amount of salary you pretty much have to stream. If you don't have a big following even flipping burgers is more profitable and takes less time.
We don't have a pyramid like scheme where you can get to the top just with "hard work" because we don't have a base.
Oh and btw, Idra should not be in a european regional either.
If you want to watch MMA vs MVP, watch the *korean* region tournaments. Noone would stop you. There are however lots of fans who would prefer the opportunity to see regional talents emerge.
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On April 10 2013 21:00 Nekovivie wrote:
I like the complaints. It's a good way of splitting the hardcore gamer players who want to be the best/improve, with the 'herp-a-derp want to beat noobs for money' players.
Yeah that's what's going on here. Thanks for the one liner of insight.
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On April 10 2013 21:02 sage_francis wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 20:58 mongmong wrote:On April 10 2013 20:53 sage_francis wrote:On April 10 2013 20:49 xAdra wrote:
I am one who doesn't give two shits about the "foreigner scene", but I don't like this for another simple reason:
GSL is gutted, it's no longer the greatest collection of skill in the world any longer. I mean, with mvp, MC, MMA, Hyun, Taeja, HerO and others dispersed all over the world, what remains of the GSL? flash? fantasy? life? BISU??!!! Youre asking for too much, Bisu will never make it through qualifiers. Its his fate If you wanna see him again in individual leagues, then MSL needs to revive haha why are u so serious?
I wasnt being serious. it was a joke
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I cant see anyone actually defending this unless they really hate foreigner players and the growth of the western scene. If we applied this structure to football there will only be Spanish, Argentinian,Brazilian,Italian players. Its insane. If this system was implemented 2 years ago. Players like Stephano,Scarlet would never had been known
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On April 10 2013 21:01 mememolly wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 20:57 pms wrote:On April 10 2013 20:55 baldgye wrote:On April 10 2013 20:54 pms wrote:On April 10 2013 20:52 Kylo55 wrote:On April 10 2013 20:46 Dodgin wrote:On April 10 2013 20:44 YuiHirasawa wrote:
Grzegorz Komincz @mouzMaNa
I wish people would consider Koreans appearance in WCS NA/EU as a motivation to harder practice than whining about it not being fair.
That's the way to go. And a lot of EU players think the same. No wonder why they always perform better than their NA counterparts. Opinions seem pretty split, I saw Ret tweeting similar things as Mana but Dimaga responded to that tweet agreeing with Catz instead. Well its not that spilt then When you look at recent results Mana and Ret are doing quite good, while Dimaga doesnt not even mention Catz :D If you are confident, and wanna improve you like this, if you just want to make some money of your hobby then you dont. As a player ocf, viewers opinions have different points. Viewers will get happier seeing their players improving. ...and by that you mean being wrecked by Koreans constantly while SC2 slowly moves back to how it was in the BW days when it was insane when a foreigner took a game from a Korean, but hey least they are getting better, right? No. Actually we were on this path in the last two years (remember Jinro, Naniwa, Stephano? where is their skill now in comparison with Koreans?). If the previous system was so great, then why the gap between foreigners and Koreans was increasing? Can somebody explain it to me? Stephano had break out tourneys, this gave him motivation, and people invested in him to travel to events etc. Why would anyone invest in some kid who works his ass off only to lose to jaedong in the first round of WCS? WCS is meant to grow regions, give players motivation and experience of competing on a big stage, not a place for koreans honed in prohouses to come and clean up
Tournaments were already packed with Koreans when Stephano won his first premiere (IPL 3).
NA players fear competition. They are afraid they will have to work hard and practice until they puke and hate the game if they want to make any money.
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Im not sure if this mass migration was intended by blizzard and if it is good or bad for the na/eu scene.
so things that seem relatively certain to me:
- GSL loses a lot of top quality players (fan favourites like mc, mma, mvp, nestea, violet, hyun, taeja, hero)
--> GSL is weakened
- NA WCS will be like second class GSL with maybe a few top foreigners. probably not this season yet because of a lot of invites for na players. (top 6 of NA should be all koreans this season though)
- EU scene seems the weakest now but at least theres a chance for one or two foreigners to make top 6.
- global finals would unite the koreans that stay in korea and the koreans that go abroad again and is qualitywise better than the WCS finals 2012.
The smart thing to do for NA players would be to do the goswser and move to europe if they havent got an invite for season 1.
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On April 10 2013 20:59 sc2superfan101 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 20:56 CajunMan wrote:On April 10 2013 20:51 sc2superfan101 wrote:On April 10 2013 20:48 CajunMan wrote:On April 10 2013 20:39 sc2superfan101 wrote:On April 10 2013 20:31 CajunMan wrote:On April 10 2013 20:06 sc2superfan101 wrote:On April 10 2013 19:58 CajunMan wrote:On April 10 2013 19:41 sc2superfan101 wrote:On April 10 2013 19:35 Type|NarutO wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On April 10 2013 19:27 Godwrath wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 19:18 sc2superfan101 wrote:On April 10 2013 19:10 budar wrote:On April 10 2013 18:52 sc2superfan101 wrote:On April 10 2013 18:47 Musicus wrote:On April 10 2013 18:41 sc2superfan101 wrote:On April 10 2013 18:37 playa wrote:On April 10 2013 18:34 sc2superfan101 wrote:
Can someone please explain how this ruins anything?
Keep in mind that a GSL style NA/EU tournament with similar prize money didn't exist before this. Keep in mind that every country had a WCS last season and Koreans were only playing in the Korean WCS. Thus, non Koreans could actually win something... So now they actually have to play better players to win something... Oh no! I'm sorry but I'm having a real hard time sympathizing with all this entitlement coming out of the foreign scene right now. They all have been code S players at some point in the past year most making deep runs. To tell me that list isn't among the best Koreans out there is just a flat lie. There will always be international tournaments with tons of top koreans stomping foreigners, but many wanted WCS to be the starcraft olympics. National champions being sent to the world final etc. Would you not enjoy that? Some regional competission leading up to a world final on top of all the international stuff? Not really. I'd probably watch the finals just for the Koreans though. I am one of those rarities that likes Korean players more for both personality and skill level. (emphasis mine) -> That's the whole point. I also don't really care where someone is from if they can play great games, but there are a lot of people who chose their favorite players based on other criteria, and that's actually perfectly fine and happens in all sports. Especially if you're cheering for your hometown/homecountry representative, it's really completely understandable and desirable. And the point that you are missing is that this is killing that. So you might get some great games in the first season (in the offline event, doubt the online part will be too hot after a few weeks of initial interest), but how long will that continue if viewership and general interest in the game declines. Just look at the LoL and DotA2 scenes... The situation in terms of skill is actually really similar to SC2. North american teams are behind EU teams who are behind Asian teams, with a handful of Stephano-like exceptions. But these scenes are completely separated except for THE big tournament where all roads lead to. The NA LCS is getting great numbers even though those teams are actually pretty weak right now. But hey, people care about them, they know these players from their stream etc. Anyway, it remains to be seen how this will turn out. I might actually watch the NA one now whereas without the Koreans I probably wouldn't have. But that's me and you and people like that. What about the "average Joe" browsing twitch and eating Hot Pockets? I still don't get how this kills the scene though... The only change is no more WCS and more money being funneled into the scene. You could argue that it doesn't advance the NA/EU scene as much as it could have, but then I would again disagree. In the region locked scenario, NA/EU would just stagnate and remain eternally inferior. Foreigners would have no incentive to reach the level to where they could beat Koreans. Was the old WCS really all that successful? I never bothered watching any of it so I don't know. Because WCS was an attempt to grow other region scene outside of korea, and this pretty much does the oppossite. Korean players won't be moving, but just playing online while mantaining their practice on their team houses and friends on korea. I don't think people would see so much troublewith koreans moving, if they were really moving. Specially if the different regions started to have some kind of hubs centralized for the teams to grow around. What grows the scene is INVESTMENT and DETERMINATION. All people who read CatZ post on reddit and think its clever really need to put some more thought into it. Korea didn't start with an eSports scene. They did build it with a huge playerbase. Teams / amateurs put up houses to practice in and pay fees to play there. Its not like they magically appeared and it was SKTelecomT1, CJ Entus, T8, STX SouL appearing from nowhere. In Europe and NA sponsors do more or less see 'us' / teams as product placement in eSports, but do they really care and support the scene because the scene is important? Don't know about that. In Korea its good image / good investment for a sponsor to invest into a starleague, into a team, because its not just product placement but overall public relation. I mentioned that a powerhouse like EG with potentially the money should host a house for 16 players, let them pay a certain amount so you can cover the costs at least by 70-90% so they have a house to practice in and food. Give them a schedule and potentially some experiecend coach, doesn't need to be a professional Korean one. The scene will grow based on something like this. Money ofcourse bringts interest, but if you really think it would improve the scene that you can easily get money in NA/EU you are wrong. Progamers wouldn't practice harder, just because they can get money more easily now. If they want to win money right now, they at least need to compete with Koreans - while if you make it region locked - banned Koreans - you can just stick at your level and yes, you can win money - you can sustain yourself, but is that motivation to increase skill and put more into it? Is it reason for more determination? I don't think so. Cheap pros look for easy money, while others look for skill. I understand all progamers and their arguments about money and that determination alone isn't enough to cover costs and put food on the table, but there's more to "give us money, we play" than some people make it sound. Good think its not nation-locked, Koreans should be there and play, the level will increase regardless of them playing only against each other or ladder , but at least we will see foreigners training and trying to get and steal games from Koreans. If we end up with 2 foreigners that are worthy in WCS global finals I am very happy. If we see an all Korean Final, also good. Don't know whats wrong with people nowadays, NA / EU people act like they put more on the line being a progamer than someone from Korea does, when the truth is that they put everything on the line and practice hard. Lots of them don't finish school (?) dont start job training etc. How many people / progamers do you think failed on their way to being successful? Now think about how much sallary EU/NA players get compared to an amateur Korean who PAYS to play in a good training environment.. Also towards the statement of CLGs manager @ CatZ skype: How ridiculous is that. If I were to sponsor a team and would see so much lack of determination and sense for competition I'd immediately quit them. Hilarious - how did they want to GROW TALENT to begin with when they only jump in and expect victories? Talents don't win from the start - you need to put time and money into it and it EVENTUALLY pays off, nothing guaranteed. Now a handfull of Koreans comes over that are good but they are human and you can potentially beat them and they just quit? Well right there you got the reason why Korea is superior to EU/US. Its right there, just look at it. So much this. I cannot for the life of me understand why these altruists who were gonna just pour money into the scene would run away because 10 Koreans moved into the scene. Obviously they weren't all that dedicated to the idea. I like how you say it like its 10 random B teamers that have never won anything. These are 10 of the BEST code S players or team aces one has won 3 gsls so ya excuse me if I'm a bit upset that the Korean SCSI won't actually have the BEST Koreans in it. Instead they come here and kill our scene that is getting off the ground finally an opportunity to raise better players finally a chance for those who play 10 hours a day to get noticed and get to make a living then be raised to compete on the highest level. Only 3 of them are Code S... The BEST Koreans, excepting one or two, aren't going anywhere as of yet. I agree that it sucks for foreigners who were expecting an easier way. But the easy way is not the way to balance the scenes. If this shit ain't brutal then there will be no way that foreigners can ever compete. Trust me guys, I'm a little worried too. I was absolutely expecting one of my favorite players in the world to be able to qualify easy, and now he might not. But if he doesn't than that is his fault. Not Blizzards, not Koreans. His. I understand that NA/EU need more infrastructure. But you know what, judging by this thread. It isn't just infrastructure. It's attitude. LOL and it is his fault he doesn't have a training house where he can play as much as he needs everyday with food and living taken care of. So sorry he probably has to work part to full time then on top of that most likely has to go to school because he is given no opportunity. The best player in na will stay the way they are not because of lack of determination or will but the fact that they have more responsibility and less time in the day. How many people you think would give it all up for 3 meals a day and a computer? I know a Damn lot of them but that is not even an option its a spit in the face to call these players out like they are sitting with the same exact settings and life of these Koreans and expect the same results. And by letting these top players come over instead of opening up options you are hamstringing them before anything even happens. Actually this guy doesn't work or go to school Do Koreans have less responsibilities? Do their days last more than 24 hours? They have infrastructure, yes, and that is a big part of it. It also seems they have, in general, a more solid attitude about the game and the sacrifices it requires. I'm not calling the players out, I'm just calling it how I see it. If they want to succeed, than they have to work extremely hard. And even then success is not guaranteed. I don't see how actually guaranteeing success by banning all of the remotely good players from the scene is in any way going to keep them from treating it like a part-time thing though. They're options are more limited now, and the competition is fiercer. IMO, this is exactly how it should be. Life is tough, and if you aren't gonna be more tough than maybe professional athletics isn't for you. Sad fact, but there it is. So we admit the na scenes short comings and that even if they have a chance not to succeed they have a Fucking chance. But we are going to still blame na players lack of attitude and there poor assess for being unable to afford full time play. EVERYBODY POINT AND LAUGH AT THE PEASANTS AHAHAHAHAHA You know what's funny. I always wanted to ride BMX and dirt-bikes competitively. Only daddy didn't have enough money for either. So while I had friends who got to try it out... I never did. Some of my friends even made it into the competitive scene. And poor little me, my parents couldn't afford it so I never even got a chance. It was around that time that I learned two things: 1) Life isn't fair. 2) Complaining that life isn't fair is the best way to never succeed. The difference here is we have an opportunity to make it so you can feasibly learn to bmx and be successful! We are starting this cool league and you work your way up and win you win against the best in your region you play the BEST in the world and you get paid for it! But then we scraped that idea now you have to bmx against the top 16 of last years X games. That's it pretty boy why don't you go to McDonald's get you a whamburger and some French crys because thats all you deserve. I don't think you understand. My family couldn't afford to either 1) buy me a BMX bike, or 2) allow me to even attempt to win money, even if said money was around to be won. Still not feeling sorry for the NA pros yet. Maybe that has something to do with the fact that I'm about to go work a full shift at fucking Red Lobster as a goddamn fry-cook so I can barely pay rent and internet bills though. Or maybe it's because I still think they're getting a better deal now than they had before. Or maybe it's both. Probably both actually.
So your analogy here is saying because we currently can't afford it we should give up? Instead of fighting for something feasible for our growing industry we should just give up instead. Seems reasonable.
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On April 10 2013 20:57 Type|NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 20:26 SinCitta wrote:On April 10 2013 19:49 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 10 2013 19:42 Godwrath wrote:On April 10 2013 19:35 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 10 2013 19:27 Godwrath wrote:On April 10 2013 19:18 sc2superfan101 wrote:On April 10 2013 19:10 budar wrote:On April 10 2013 18:52 sc2superfan101 wrote:On April 10 2013 18:47 Musicus wrote:
[quote]
There will always be international tournaments with tons of top koreans stomping foreigners, but many wanted WCS to be the starcraft olympics. National champions being sent to the world final etc. Would you not enjoy that? Some regional competission leading up to a world final on top of all the international stuff? Not really. I'd probably watch the finals just for the Koreans though. I am one of those rarities that likes Korean players more for both personality and skill level. (emphasis mine) -> That's the whole point. I also don't really care where someone is from if they can play great games, but there are a lot of people who chose their favorite players based on other criteria, and that's actually perfectly fine and happens in all sports. Especially if you're cheering for your hometown/homecountry representative, it's really completely understandable and desirable. And the point that you are missing is that this is killing that. So you might get some great games in the first season (in the offline event, doubt the online part will be too hot after a few weeks of initial interest), but how long will that continue if viewership and general interest in the game declines. Just look at the LoL and DotA2 scenes... The situation in terms of skill is actually really similar to SC2. North american teams are behind EU teams who are behind Asian teams, with a handful of Stephano-like exceptions. But these scenes are completely separated except for THE big tournament where all roads lead to. The NA LCS is getting great numbers even though those teams are actually pretty weak right now. But hey, people care about them, they know these players from their stream etc. Anyway, it remains to be seen how this will turn out. I might actually watch the NA one now whereas without the Koreans I probably wouldn't have. But that's me and you and people like that. What about the "average Joe" browsing twitch and eating Hot Pockets? I still don't get how this kills the scene though... The only change is no more WCS and more money being funneled into the scene. You could argue that it doesn't advance the NA/EU scene as much as it could have, but then I would again disagree. In the region locked scenario, NA/EU would just stagnate and remain eternally inferior. Foreigners would have no incentive to reach the level to where they could beat Koreans. Was the old WCS really all that successful? I never bothered watching any of it so I don't know. Because WCS was an attempt to grow other region scene outside of korea, and this pretty much does the oppossite. Korean players won't be moving, but just playing online while mantaining their practice on their team houses and friends on korea. I don't think people would see so much troublewith koreans moving, if they were really moving. Specially if the different regions started to have some kind of hubs centralized for the teams to grow around. What grows the scene is INVESTMENT and DETERMINATION. All people who read CatZ post on reddit and think its clever really need to put some more thought into it. Korea didn't start with an eSports scene. They did build it with a huge playerbase. Teams / amateurs put up houses to practice in and pay fees to play there. Its not like they magically appeared and it was SKTelecomT1, CJ Entus, T8, STX SouL appearing from nowhere.In Europe and NA sponsors do more or less see 'us' / teams as product placement in eSports, but do they really care and support the scene because the scene is important? Don't know about that. In Korea its good image / good investment for a sponsor to invest into a starleague, into a team, because its not just product placement but overall public relation. I mentioned that a powerhouse like EG with potentially the money should host a house for 16 players, let them pay a certain amount so you can cover the costs at least by 70-90% so they have a house to practice in and food. Give them a schedule and potentially some experiecend coach, doesn't need to be a professional Korean one. The scene will grow based on something like this. Money ofcourse bringts interest, but if you really think it would improve the scene that you can easily get money in NA/EU you are wrong. Progamers wouldn't practice harder, just because they can get money more easily now. If they want to win money right now, they at least need to compete with Koreans - while if you make it region locked - banned Koreans - you can just stick at your level and yes, you can win money - you can sustain yourself, but is that motivation to increase skill and put more into it? Is it reason for more determination? I don't think so. Cheap pros look for easy money, while others look for skill. I understand all progamers and their arguments about money and that determination alone isn't enough to cover costs and put food on the table, but there's more to "give us money, we play" than some people make it sound. Good think its not nation-locked, Koreans should be there and play, the level will increase regardless of them playing only against each other or ladder , but at least we will see foreigners training and trying to get and steal games from Koreans. If we end up with 2 foreigners that are worthy in WCS global finals I am very happy. If we see an all Korean Final, also good. Don't know whats wrong with people nowadays, NA / EU people act like they put more on the line being a progamer than someone from Korea does, when the truth is that they put everything on the line and practice hard. Lots of them don't finish school (?) dont start job training etc. How many people / progamers do you think failed on their way to being successful? Now think about how much sallary EU/NA players get compared to an amateur Korean who PAYS to play in a good training environment.. I don't see where we disagree to be honest. Investment is not only about the teams, most of the stuff you are speaking about korea and kespa teams have the advantadge of a centralized hub, and that requires investment of course, and it's what i am speaking about. This doesn't only come from the teams, but some sort of centralized league for different regions where those team have the motivation to invest. Most of the rest of your post is player bashing so i will just ignore it. Edit - And by the way, i haven't read catz (or anyone post) in the matter, i don't even use reddit. Sorry it wasn't directly posted refering to you. It got a bit longer than I usually planned to reply. I think we disagree with the fact that you would want to build a league without Korean competition in it, while you make the statement it would grow the scene, I argue it would hurt eSport. Banning a nation is never a good thing. What do you think about a region lock based on residency like the EPS? To make some annoying sports anology, we love it when international stars come to the Bundesliga: Lewandowski, Robben, Raul, van der Vaart, Pep Guardiola. They love them and identify themselves with them independent of nationality. English Premier league is full of international players and everybody is happy. But they want to see them for three or more years and be a part of the league, not just play half a season to grab money and go. In the German basketball league we had a lot of "cheap Americans" that didn't make it to the NBA and just changed team every (half-)season. Zero identification with the player, zero identification with the team. I am thrilled to see Mvp and MC in EU, but it would suck if they played online and come here for two weeks and go. I want to see them stay here for a while, see them improve, see them struggle, see them adapt to life in Europe. The foreseen problem with NA is that it has acceptable latency for Korean players and most of them have nothing to do with NA. Worst case, they just play their stuff online, go over there, lock themselves up while eating only Korean food, win money, go back. Zero identifcation with the player, zero identification with the league. EPS doesn't ban a nation from participating. Your main residence for the year must be Germany which is fine. Its a local / regional league and not a MAJOR event with hundretthousand fucking $ as price money. As I said I'm all for regional and local leagues with a fair amount of price money but hosting such a major event and locking out a nation is silly. ESL Pro Series had Naniwa, Cloud, DemusliM, ReaL, Phoenix, Monchi... all non-German players that can participate because they decided to participate and move. People here ask to not allow those Koreans to move and lock them in their region, which is stupid.
No, actually, what most people expect is for it to be at least like EPS - that player is playing from NA/EU - whatever his nationality. I don't think anyone has a problem with ForGG or viOlet playing in EU/NA, but this will be played online, and the Koreans will be playing in a foreign league whilst enjoying the vastly superior infrastructure at home.
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On April 10 2013 20:59 sc2superfan101 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 20:56 CajunMan wrote:On April 10 2013 20:51 sc2superfan101 wrote:On April 10 2013 20:48 CajunMan wrote:On April 10 2013 20:39 sc2superfan101 wrote:On April 10 2013 20:31 CajunMan wrote:On April 10 2013 20:06 sc2superfan101 wrote:On April 10 2013 19:58 CajunMan wrote:On April 10 2013 19:41 sc2superfan101 wrote:On April 10 2013 19:35 Type|NarutO wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On April 10 2013 19:27 Godwrath wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 19:18 sc2superfan101 wrote:On April 10 2013 19:10 budar wrote:On April 10 2013 18:52 sc2superfan101 wrote:On April 10 2013 18:47 Musicus wrote:On April 10 2013 18:41 sc2superfan101 wrote:On April 10 2013 18:37 playa wrote:On April 10 2013 18:34 sc2superfan101 wrote:
Can someone please explain how this ruins anything?
Keep in mind that a GSL style NA/EU tournament with similar prize money didn't exist before this. Keep in mind that every country had a WCS last season and Koreans were only playing in the Korean WCS. Thus, non Koreans could actually win something... So now they actually have to play better players to win something... Oh no! I'm sorry but I'm having a real hard time sympathizing with all this entitlement coming out of the foreign scene right now. They all have been code S players at some point in the past year most making deep runs. To tell me that list isn't among the best Koreans out there is just a flat lie. There will always be international tournaments with tons of top koreans stomping foreigners, but many wanted WCS to be the starcraft olympics. National champions being sent to the world final etc. Would you not enjoy that? Some regional competission leading up to a world final on top of all the international stuff? Not really. I'd probably watch the finals just for the Koreans though. I am one of those rarities that likes Korean players more for both personality and skill level. (emphasis mine) -> That's the whole point. I also don't really care where someone is from if they can play great games, but there are a lot of people who chose their favorite players based on other criteria, and that's actually perfectly fine and happens in all sports. Especially if you're cheering for your hometown/homecountry representative, it's really completely understandable and desirable. And the point that you are missing is that this is killing that. So you might get some great games in the first season (in the offline event, doubt the online part will be too hot after a few weeks of initial interest), but how long will that continue if viewership and general interest in the game declines. Just look at the LoL and DotA2 scenes... The situation in terms of skill is actually really similar to SC2. North american teams are behind EU teams who are behind Asian teams, with a handful of Stephano-like exceptions. But these scenes are completely separated except for THE big tournament where all roads lead to. The NA LCS is getting great numbers even though those teams are actually pretty weak right now. But hey, people care about them, they know these players from their stream etc. Anyway, it remains to be seen how this will turn out. I might actually watch the NA one now whereas without the Koreans I probably wouldn't have. But that's me and you and people like that. What about the "average Joe" browsing twitch and eating Hot Pockets? I still don't get how this kills the scene though... The only change is no more WCS and more money being funneled into the scene. You could argue that it doesn't advance the NA/EU scene as much as it could have, but then I would again disagree. In the region locked scenario, NA/EU would just stagnate and remain eternally inferior. Foreigners would have no incentive to reach the level to where they could beat Koreans. Was the old WCS really all that successful? I never bothered watching any of it so I don't know. Because WCS was an attempt to grow other region scene outside of korea, and this pretty much does the oppossite. Korean players won't be moving, but just playing online while mantaining their practice on their team houses and friends on korea. I don't think people would see so much troublewith koreans moving, if they were really moving. Specially if the different regions started to have some kind of hubs centralized for the teams to grow around. What grows the scene is INVESTMENT and DETERMINATION. All people who read CatZ post on reddit and think its clever really need to put some more thought into it. Korea didn't start with an eSports scene. They did build it with a huge playerbase. Teams / amateurs put up houses to practice in and pay fees to play there. Its not like they magically appeared and it was SKTelecomT1, CJ Entus, T8, STX SouL appearing from nowhere. In Europe and NA sponsors do more or less see 'us' / teams as product placement in eSports, but do they really care and support the scene because the scene is important? Don't know about that. In Korea its good image / good investment for a sponsor to invest into a starleague, into a team, because its not just product placement but overall public relation. I mentioned that a powerhouse like EG with potentially the money should host a house for 16 players, let them pay a certain amount so you can cover the costs at least by 70-90% so they have a house to practice in and food. Give them a schedule and potentially some experiecend coach, doesn't need to be a professional Korean one. The scene will grow based on something like this. Money ofcourse bringts interest, but if you really think it would improve the scene that you can easily get money in NA/EU you are wrong. Progamers wouldn't practice harder, just because they can get money more easily now. If they want to win money right now, they at least need to compete with Koreans - while if you make it region locked - banned Koreans - you can just stick at your level and yes, you can win money - you can sustain yourself, but is that motivation to increase skill and put more into it? Is it reason for more determination? I don't think so. Cheap pros look for easy money, while others look for skill. I understand all progamers and their arguments about money and that determination alone isn't enough to cover costs and put food on the table, but there's more to "give us money, we play" than some people make it sound. Good think its not nation-locked, Koreans should be there and play, the level will increase regardless of them playing only against each other or ladder , but at least we will see foreigners training and trying to get and steal games from Koreans. If we end up with 2 foreigners that are worthy in WCS global finals I am very happy. If we see an all Korean Final, also good. Don't know whats wrong with people nowadays, NA / EU people act like they put more on the line being a progamer than someone from Korea does, when the truth is that they put everything on the line and practice hard. Lots of them don't finish school (?) dont start job training etc. How many people / progamers do you think failed on their way to being successful? Now think about how much sallary EU/NA players get compared to an amateur Korean who PAYS to play in a good training environment.. Also towards the statement of CLGs manager @ CatZ skype: How ridiculous is that. If I were to sponsor a team and would see so much lack of determination and sense for competition I'd immediately quit them. Hilarious - how did they want to GROW TALENT to begin with when they only jump in and expect victories? Talents don't win from the start - you need to put time and money into it and it EVENTUALLY pays off, nothing guaranteed. Now a handfull of Koreans comes over that are good but they are human and you can potentially beat them and they just quit? Well right there you got the reason why Korea is superior to EU/US. Its right there, just look at it. So much this. I cannot for the life of me understand why these altruists who were gonna just pour money into the scene would run away because 10 Koreans moved into the scene. Obviously they weren't all that dedicated to the idea. I like how you say it like its 10 random B teamers that have never won anything. These are 10 of the BEST code S players or team aces one has won 3 gsls so ya excuse me if I'm a bit upset that the Korean SCSI won't actually have the BEST Koreans in it. Instead they come here and kill our scene that is getting off the ground finally an opportunity to raise better players finally a chance for those who play 10 hours a day to get noticed and get to make a living then be raised to compete on the highest level. Only 3 of them are Code S... The BEST Koreans, excepting one or two, aren't going anywhere as of yet. I agree that it sucks for foreigners who were expecting an easier way. But the easy way is not the way to balance the scenes. If this shit ain't brutal then there will be no way that foreigners can ever compete. Trust me guys, I'm a little worried too. I was absolutely expecting one of my favorite players in the world to be able to qualify easy, and now he might not. But if he doesn't than that is his fault. Not Blizzards, not Koreans. His. I understand that NA/EU need more infrastructure. But you know what, judging by this thread. It isn't just infrastructure. It's attitude. LOL and it is his fault he doesn't have a training house where he can play as much as he needs everyday with food and living taken care of. So sorry he probably has to work part to full time then on top of that most likely has to go to school because he is given no opportunity. The best player in na will stay the way they are not because of lack of determination or will but the fact that they have more responsibility and less time in the day. How many people you think would give it all up for 3 meals a day and a computer? I know a Damn lot of them but that is not even an option its a spit in the face to call these players out like they are sitting with the same exact settings and life of these Koreans and expect the same results. And by letting these top players come over instead of opening up options you are hamstringing them before anything even happens. Actually this guy doesn't work or go to school Do Koreans have less responsibilities? Do their days last more than 24 hours? They have infrastructure, yes, and that is a big part of it. It also seems they have, in general, a more solid attitude about the game and the sacrifices it requires. I'm not calling the players out, I'm just calling it how I see it. If they want to succeed, than they have to work extremely hard. And even then success is not guaranteed. I don't see how actually guaranteeing success by banning all of the remotely good players from the scene is in any way going to keep them from treating it like a part-time thing though. They're options are more limited now, and the competition is fiercer. IMO, this is exactly how it should be. Life is tough, and if you aren't gonna be more tough than maybe professional athletics isn't for you. Sad fact, but there it is. So we admit the na scenes short comings and that even if they have a chance not to succeed they have a Fucking chance. But we are going to still blame na players lack of attitude and there poor assess for being unable to afford full time play. EVERYBODY POINT AND LAUGH AT THE PEASANTS AHAHAHAHAHA You know what's funny. I always wanted to ride BMX and dirt-bikes competitively. Only daddy didn't have enough money for either. So while I had friends who got to try it out... I never did. Some of my friends even made it into the competitive scene. And poor little me, my parents couldn't afford it so I never even got a chance. It was around that time that I learned two things: 1) Life isn't fair. 2) Complaining that life isn't fair is the best way to never succeed. The difference here is we have an opportunity to make it so you can feasibly learn to bmx and be successful! We are starting this cool league and you work your way up and win you win against the best in your region you play the BEST in the world and you get paid for it! But then we scraped that idea now you have to bmx against the top 16 of last years X games. That's it pretty boy why don't you go to McDonald's get you a whamburger and some French crys because thats all you deserve. I don't think you understand. My family couldn't afford to either 1) buy me a BMX bike, or 2) allow me to even attempt to win money, even if said money was around to be won. Still not feeling sorry for the NA pros yet. Maybe that has something to do with the fact that I'm about to go work a full shift at fucking Red Lobster as a goddamn fry-cook so I can barely pay rent and internet bills though. Or maybe it's because I still think they're getting a better deal now than they had before. Or maybe it's both. Probably both actually.
Well I cannot claim that this guy does'nt put in the effort at least, maybe you should go pro. Might need to find myself a Voltaire quote.
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On April 10 2013 21:03 Damnight wrote:
CALLED IT! When the fuck is Blizz. finally going to listen to personalities who support regional leagues! Like CatZ for example. It´s is rediculous.
1. Na is unawinnable for foreigners as of right now.
2. EU is close to impossible to win, atleast a good placement is reachable.
3. GSL without so many important characters? These are people who make a ton of people watch GSL in the first place.
I don't doubt that the skill and the prestige of GSL is going to grow nonetheless, but it will be a hell of a lot less interesting without lots of my favorite players......
4. Stephano couldn't have picked a better time to retire lolz
1.Maybe if NA players beginn practicing like the Koreans,they succeed.
2.Kas?Lucifron?Stephano?Snute?Thorzain?Naniwa? What did they in the GSL? Not enough skill yet...
3.GSL without who??? MC is Code A as MVP,MMA,Nestea,DRG...
There are still very good players in COde S like Taeja,Innovation,MKP,Roro,Parting.Life,Leenock,Keen,Squirtle,Rain,Hyun,flash,Bomber,Losira...
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So typical of Mvp to pick such a smart option.
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On April 10 2013 21:05 mikkmagro wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 20:57 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 10 2013 20:26 SinCitta wrote:On April 10 2013 19:49 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 10 2013 19:42 Godwrath wrote:On April 10 2013 19:35 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 10 2013 19:27 Godwrath wrote:On April 10 2013 19:18 sc2superfan101 wrote:On April 10 2013 19:10 budar wrote:On April 10 2013 18:52 sc2superfan101 wrote:
[quote]
Not really. I'd probably watch the finals just for the Koreans though. I am one of those rarities that likes Korean players more for both personality and skill level.
(emphasis mine) -> That's the whole point. I also don't really care where someone is from if they can play great games, but there are a lot of people who chose their favorite players based on other criteria, and that's actually perfectly fine and happens in all sports. Especially if you're cheering for your hometown/homecountry representative, it's really completely understandable and desirable. And the point that you are missing is that this is killing that. So you might get some great games in the first season (in the offline event, doubt the online part will be too hot after a few weeks of initial interest), but how long will that continue if viewership and general interest in the game declines. Just look at the LoL and DotA2 scenes... The situation in terms of skill is actually really similar to SC2. North american teams are behind EU teams who are behind Asian teams, with a handful of Stephano-like exceptions. But these scenes are completely separated except for THE big tournament where all roads lead to. The NA LCS is getting great numbers even though those teams are actually pretty weak right now. But hey, people care about them, they know these players from their stream etc. Anyway, it remains to be seen how this will turn out. I might actually watch the NA one now whereas without the Koreans I probably wouldn't have. But that's me and you and people like that. What about the "average Joe" browsing twitch and eating Hot Pockets? I still don't get how this kills the scene though... The only change is no more WCS and more money being funneled into the scene. You could argue that it doesn't advance the NA/EU scene as much as it could have, but then I would again disagree. In the region locked scenario, NA/EU would just stagnate and remain eternally inferior. Foreigners would have no incentive to reach the level to where they could beat Koreans. Was the old WCS really all that successful? I never bothered watching any of it so I don't know. Because WCS was an attempt to grow other region scene outside of korea, and this pretty much does the oppossite. Korean players won't be moving, but just playing online while mantaining their practice on their team houses and friends on korea. I don't think people would see so much troublewith koreans moving, if they were really moving. Specially if the different regions started to have some kind of hubs centralized for the teams to grow around. What grows the scene is INVESTMENT and DETERMINATION. All people who read CatZ post on reddit and think its clever really need to put some more thought into it. Korea didn't start with an eSports scene. They did build it with a huge playerbase. Teams / amateurs put up houses to practice in and pay fees to play there. Its not like they magically appeared and it was SKTelecomT1, CJ Entus, T8, STX SouL appearing from nowhere.In Europe and NA sponsors do more or less see 'us' / teams as product placement in eSports, but do they really care and support the scene because the scene is important? Don't know about that. In Korea its good image / good investment for a sponsor to invest into a starleague, into a team, because its not just product placement but overall public relation. I mentioned that a powerhouse like EG with potentially the money should host a house for 16 players, let them pay a certain amount so you can cover the costs at least by 70-90% so they have a house to practice in and food. Give them a schedule and potentially some experiecend coach, doesn't need to be a professional Korean one. The scene will grow based on something like this. Money ofcourse bringts interest, but if you really think it would improve the scene that you can easily get money in NA/EU you are wrong. Progamers wouldn't practice harder, just because they can get money more easily now. If they want to win money right now, they at least need to compete with Koreans - while if you make it region locked - banned Koreans - you can just stick at your level and yes, you can win money - you can sustain yourself, but is that motivation to increase skill and put more into it? Is it reason for more determination? I don't think so. Cheap pros look for easy money, while others look for skill. I understand all progamers and their arguments about money and that determination alone isn't enough to cover costs and put food on the table, but there's more to "give us money, we play" than some people make it sound. Good think its not nation-locked, Koreans should be there and play, the level will increase regardless of them playing only against each other or ladder , but at least we will see foreigners training and trying to get and steal games from Koreans. If we end up with 2 foreigners that are worthy in WCS global finals I am very happy. If we see an all Korean Final, also good. Don't know whats wrong with people nowadays, NA / EU people act like they put more on the line being a progamer than someone from Korea does, when the truth is that they put everything on the line and practice hard. Lots of them don't finish school (?) dont start job training etc. How many people / progamers do you think failed on their way to being successful? Now think about how much sallary EU/NA players get compared to an amateur Korean who PAYS to play in a good training environment.. I don't see where we disagree to be honest. Investment is not only about the teams, most of the stuff you are speaking about korea and kespa teams have the advantadge of a centralized hub, and that requires investment of course, and it's what i am speaking about. This doesn't only come from the teams, but some sort of centralized league for different regions where those team have the motivation to invest. Most of the rest of your post is player bashing so i will just ignore it. Edit - And by the way, i haven't read catz (or anyone post) in the matter, i don't even use reddit. Sorry it wasn't directly posted refering to you. It got a bit longer than I usually planned to reply. I think we disagree with the fact that you would want to build a league without Korean competition in it, while you make the statement it would grow the scene, I argue it would hurt eSport. Banning a nation is never a good thing. What do you think about a region lock based on residency like the EPS? To make some annoying sports anology, we love it when international stars come to the Bundesliga: Lewandowski, Robben, Raul, van der Vaart, Pep Guardiola. They love them and identify themselves with them independent of nationality. English Premier league is full of international players and everybody is happy. But they want to see them for three or more years and be a part of the league, not just play half a season to grab money and go. In the German basketball league we had a lot of "cheap Americans" that didn't make it to the NBA and just changed team every (half-)season. Zero identification with the player, zero identification with the team. I am thrilled to see Mvp and MC in EU, but it would suck if they played online and come here for two weeks and go. I want to see them stay here for a while, see them improve, see them struggle, see them adapt to life in Europe. The foreseen problem with NA is that it has acceptable latency for Korean players and most of them have nothing to do with NA. Worst case, they just play their stuff online, go over there, lock themselves up while eating only Korean food, win money, go back. Zero identifcation with the player, zero identification with the league. EPS doesn't ban a nation from participating. Your main residence for the year must be Germany which is fine. Its a local / regional league and not a MAJOR event with hundretthousand fucking $ as price money. As I said I'm all for regional and local leagues with a fair amount of price money but hosting such a major event and locking out a nation is silly. ESL Pro Series had Naniwa, Cloud, DemusliM, ReaL, Phoenix, Monchi... all non-German players that can participate because they decided to participate and move. People here ask to not allow those Koreans to move and lock them in their region, which is stupid. No, actually, what most people expect is for it to be at least like EPS - that player is playing from NA/EU - whatever his nationality. I don't think anyone has a problem with ForGG or viOlet playing in EU/NA, but this will be played online, and the Koreans will be playing in a foreign league whilst enjoying the vastly superior infrastructure at home.
Besides not knowing if they will move or not; they do give up on the best conditions to play the tournament. While having the better environment and being the better player, their playground is worse. EPS is regional and cannot be compared, because of its status. Its not a major event and especially not a qualifier for an even bigger event (at least most of the time). I can guarantee you if it would be the qualifier for a 250 000$ event, German EPS players would play EPS Nordic, Spain or whatever EPS to increase their chances.
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On April 10 2013 21:04 Maesy wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 21:00 Nekovivie wrote:
I like the complaints. It's a good way of splitting the hardcore gamer players who want to be the best/improve, with the 'herp-a-derp want to beat noobs for money' players. Yeah that's what's going on here. Thanks for the one liner of insight.
You're welcome.
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On April 10 2013 21:05 Benjamin99 wrote:
I cant see anyone actually defending this unless they really hate foreigner players and the growth of the western scene. If we applied this structure to football there will only be Spanish, Argentinian,Brazilian,Italian players. Its insane. If this system was implemented 2 years ago. Players like Stephano,Scarlet would never had been known
i defend this list of koreans mostly because i want to see what
1) All those koreans (without US/EU teamhouse) are going to do if next season ro16 it wont be 2 weekends, but 4 full weeks like in GSL.
2) EG-TL is going to do when most of their players will get into the ro16, and kespa wont reschedule proleague.
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EPT
