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On April 10 2013 21:05 CajunMan wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 20:59 sc2superfan101 wrote:On April 10 2013 20:56 CajunMan wrote:On April 10 2013 20:51 sc2superfan101 wrote:On April 10 2013 20:48 CajunMan wrote:On April 10 2013 20:39 sc2superfan101 wrote:On April 10 2013 20:31 CajunMan wrote:On April 10 2013 20:06 sc2superfan101 wrote:On April 10 2013 19:58 CajunMan wrote:On April 10 2013 19:41 sc2superfan101 wrote:
[quote]
So much this. I cannot for the life of me understand why these altruists who were gonna just pour money into the scene would run away because 10 Koreans moved into the scene. Obviously they weren't all that dedicated to the idea. I like how you say it like its 10 random B teamers that have never won anything. These are 10 of the BEST code S players or team aces one has won 3 gsls so ya excuse me if I'm a bit upset that the Korean SCSI won't actually have the BEST Koreans in it. Instead they come here and kill our scene that is getting off the ground finally an opportunity to raise better players finally a chance for those who play 10 hours a day to get noticed and get to make a living then be raised to compete on the highest level. Only 3 of them are Code S... The BEST Koreans, excepting one or two, aren't going anywhere as of yet. I agree that it sucks for foreigners who were expecting an easier way. But the easy way is not the way to balance the scenes. If this shit ain't brutal then there will be no way that foreigners can ever compete. Trust me guys, I'm a little worried too. I was absolutely expecting one of my favorite players in the world to be able to qualify easy, and now he might not. But if he doesn't than that is his fault. Not Blizzards, not Koreans. His. I understand that NA/EU need more infrastructure. But you know what, judging by this thread. It isn't just infrastructure. It's attitude. LOL and it is his fault he doesn't have a training house where he can play as much as he needs everyday with food and living taken care of. So sorry he probably has to work part to full time then on top of that most likely has to go to school because he is given no opportunity. The best player in na will stay the way they are not because of lack of determination or will but the fact that they have more responsibility and less time in the day. How many people you think would give it all up for 3 meals a day and a computer? I know a Damn lot of them but that is not even an option its a spit in the face to call these players out like they are sitting with the same exact settings and life of these Koreans and expect the same results. And by letting these top players come over instead of opening up options you are hamstringing them before anything even happens. Actually this guy doesn't work or go to school  Do Koreans have less responsibilities? Do their days last more than 24 hours? They have infrastructure, yes, and that is a big part of it. It also seems they have, in general, a more solid attitude about the game and the sacrifices it requires. I'm not calling the players out, I'm just calling it how I see it. If they want to succeed, than they have to work extremely hard. And even then success is not guaranteed. I don't see how actually guaranteeing success by banning all of the remotely good players from the scene is in any way going to keep them from treating it like a part-time thing though. They're options are more limited now, and the competition is fiercer. IMO, this is exactly how it should be. Life is tough, and if you aren't gonna be more tough than maybe professional athletics isn't for you. Sad fact, but there it is. So we admit the na scenes short comings and that even if they have a chance not to succeed they have a Fucking chance. But we are going to still blame na players lack of attitude and there poor assess for being unable to afford full time play. EVERYBODY POINT AND LAUGH AT THE PEASANTS AHAHAHAHAHA You know what's funny. I always wanted to ride BMX and dirt-bikes competitively. Only daddy didn't have enough money for either. So while I had friends who got to try it out... I never did. Some of my friends even made it into the competitive scene. And poor little me, my parents couldn't afford it so I never even got a chance. It was around that time that I learned two things: 1) Life isn't fair. 2) Complaining that life isn't fair is the best way to never succeed. The difference here is we have an opportunity to make it so you can feasibly learn to bmx and be successful! We are starting this cool league and you work your way up and win you win against the best in your region you play the BEST in the world and you get paid for it! But then we scraped that idea now you have to bmx against the top 16 of last years X games. That's it pretty boy why don't you go to McDonald's get you a whamburger and some French crys because thats all you deserve. I don't think you understand. My family couldn't afford to either 1) buy me a BMX bike, or 2) allow me to even attempt to win money, even if said money was around to be won. Still not feeling sorry for the NA pros yet. Maybe that has something to do with the fact that I'm about to go work a full shift at fucking Red Lobster as a goddamn fry-cook so I can barely pay rent and internet bills though. Or maybe it's because I still think they're getting a better deal now than they had before. Or maybe it's both. Probably both actually. So your analogy here is saying because we currently can't afford it we should give up? Instead of fighting for something feasible for our growing industry we should just give up instead. Seems reasonable.
No my analogy is to explain why I have little sympathy for someone who doesn't succeed because of outside factors like money. It's basically me telling you and everyone else that the "Oh these poor NA players!" or any other emotional argument isn't going to work on me. I work too goddamn hard at a job I don't really like to barely make ends meet to be moved by someone who *gasp* might have to do the same.
The real argument is that this will actually be better for prospective foreign players anyway. Either they work out a way to make it, or they fall away. Those who make it will be that much stronger and more worthy, and their success will mean that much more. Those who don't make it will have tried and failed, and learned something valuable in the process. It will be painful, it will be unpleasant, but in the long term, it is the only legitimate way.
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My issue with this has nothing to do with current pros. I don't really care about that.
My issue with this is that I thought WCS would be about encouraging the growth of the future scene. I thought that after a year or two of a region-locked, high-quality WCS, we could have had a much larger viewer base, better/more established team houses in NA/EU, a higher level of competition in NA/EU, more opportunity for players to devote themselves to the game, and eventually a World Championship that wasn't completely dominated by Koreans. Instead it seems to be about pumping more money into the scene for more of the same Korean domination. We have GSL Code S to see who's the best Korean, and by extension, the best player in the world right now. I don't care about a bigger, more complicated GSL Code S.
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Be happy that Koreans are coming. If no Koreans would play the US qualifier well EU would go there for the easy spot
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On April 10 2013 21:05 CajunMan wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 20:59 sc2superfan101 wrote:On April 10 2013 20:56 CajunMan wrote:On April 10 2013 20:51 sc2superfan101 wrote:On April 10 2013 20:48 CajunMan wrote:On April 10 2013 20:39 sc2superfan101 wrote:On April 10 2013 20:31 CajunMan wrote:On April 10 2013 20:06 sc2superfan101 wrote:On April 10 2013 19:58 CajunMan wrote:On April 10 2013 19:41 sc2superfan101 wrote:
[quote]
So much this. I cannot for the life of me understand why these altruists who were gonna just pour money into the scene would run away because 10 Koreans moved into the scene. Obviously they weren't all that dedicated to the idea. I like how you say it like its 10 random B teamers that have never won anything. These are 10 of the BEST code S players or team aces one has won 3 gsls so ya excuse me if I'm a bit upset that the Korean SCSI won't actually have the BEST Koreans in it. Instead they come here and kill our scene that is getting off the ground finally an opportunity to raise better players finally a chance for those who play 10 hours a day to get noticed and get to make a living then be raised to compete on the highest level. Only 3 of them are Code S... The BEST Koreans, excepting one or two, aren't going anywhere as of yet. I agree that it sucks for foreigners who were expecting an easier way. But the easy way is not the way to balance the scenes. If this shit ain't brutal then there will be no way that foreigners can ever compete. Trust me guys, I'm a little worried too. I was absolutely expecting one of my favorite players in the world to be able to qualify easy, and now he might not. But if he doesn't than that is his fault. Not Blizzards, not Koreans. His. I understand that NA/EU need more infrastructure. But you know what, judging by this thread. It isn't just infrastructure. It's attitude. LOL and it is his fault he doesn't have a training house where he can play as much as he needs everyday with food and living taken care of. So sorry he probably has to work part to full time then on top of that most likely has to go to school because he is given no opportunity. The best player in na will stay the way they are not because of lack of determination or will but the fact that they have more responsibility and less time in the day. How many people you think would give it all up for 3 meals a day and a computer? I know a Damn lot of them but that is not even an option its a spit in the face to call these players out like they are sitting with the same exact settings and life of these Koreans and expect the same results. And by letting these top players come over instead of opening up options you are hamstringing them before anything even happens. Actually this guy doesn't work or go to school Do Koreans have less responsibilities? Do their days last more than 24 hours? They have infrastructure, yes, and that is a big part of it. It also seems they have, in general, a more solid attitude about the game and the sacrifices it requires. I'm not calling the players out, I'm just calling it how I see it. If they want to succeed, than they have to work extremely hard. And even then success is not guaranteed. I don't see how actually guaranteeing success by banning all of the remotely good players from the scene is in any way going to keep them from treating it like a part-time thing though. They're options are more limited now, and the competition is fiercer. IMO, this is exactly how it should be. Life is tough, and if you aren't gonna be more tough than maybe professional athletics isn't for you. Sad fact, but there it is. So we admit the na scenes short comings and that even if they have a chance not to succeed they have a Fucking chance. But we are going to still blame na players lack of attitude and there poor assess for being unable to afford full time play. EVERYBODY POINT AND LAUGH AT THE PEASANTS AHAHAHAHAHA You know what's funny. I always wanted to ride BMX and dirt-bikes competitively. Only daddy didn't have enough money for either. So while I had friends who got to try it out... I never did. Some of my friends even made it into the competitive scene. And poor little me, my parents couldn't afford it so I never even got a chance. It was around that time that I learned two things: 1) Life isn't fair. 2) Complaining that life isn't fair is the best way to never succeed. The difference here is we have an opportunity to make it so you can feasibly learn to bmx and be successful! We are starting this cool league and you work your way up and win you win against the best in your region you play the BEST in the world and you get paid for it! But then we scraped that idea now you have to bmx against the top 16 of last years X games. That's it pretty boy why don't you go to McDonald's get you a whamburger and some French crys because thats all you deserve. I don't think you understand. My family couldn't afford to either 1) buy me a BMX bike, or 2) allow me to even attempt to win money, even if said money was around to be won. Still not feeling sorry for the NA pros yet. Maybe that has something to do with the fact that I'm about to go work a full shift at fucking Red Lobster as a goddamn fry-cook so I can barely pay rent and internet bills though. Or maybe it's because I still think they're getting a better deal now than they had before. Or maybe it's both. Probably both actually. So your analogy here is saying because we currently can't afford it we should give up? Instead of fighting for something feasible for our growing industry we should just give up instead. Seems reasonable.
That's not really what he's saying though.
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On April 10 2013 21:00 baldgye wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 20:57 pms wrote:On April 10 2013 20:55 baldgye wrote:On April 10 2013 20:54 pms wrote:On April 10 2013 20:52 Kylo55 wrote:On April 10 2013 20:46 Dodgin wrote:On April 10 2013 20:44 YuiHirasawa wrote:
Grzegorz Komincz @mouzMaNa
I wish people would consider Koreans appearance in WCS NA/EU as a motivation to harder practice than whining about it not being fair.
That's the way to go. And a lot of EU players think the same. No wonder why they always perform better than their NA counterparts. Opinions seem pretty split, I saw Ret tweeting similar things as Mana but Dimaga responded to that tweet agreeing with Catz instead. Well its not that spilt then  When you look at recent results Mana and Ret are doing quite good, while Dimaga doesnt not even mention Catz :D If you are confident, and wanna improve you like this, if you just want to make some money of your hobby then you dont. As a player ocf, viewers opinions have different points. Viewers will get happier seeing their players improving. ...and by that you mean being wrecked by Koreans constantly while SC2 slowly moves back to how it was in the BW days when it was insane when a foreigner took a game from a Korean, but hey least they are getting better, right? No. Actually we were on this path in the last two years (remember Jinro, Naniwa, Stephano? where is their skill now in comparison with Koreans?). If the previous system was so great, then why the gap between foreigners and Koreans was increasing? Can somebody explain it to me? You should really read catz post on reddit, or indeed anything about how the game has evolved and how the Korean scene has evolved so you can understand how the world of competitive starcraft actually works, instead of making nonsense posts as if you have some sort of meaningful incite.
Thanks for the advice. You still haven't answered my question though, nor gave me any arguments.
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Actually the more I think about the more I think its a good idea if the NA players who live in NA should just boycott the NA WSC to send a clear message to blizzard
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so who is staying to play in korea wcs? no one? wtf
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On April 10 2013 21:10 sc2superfan101 wrote:
No my analogy is to explain why I have little sympathy for someone who doesn't succeed because of outside factors like money. It's basically me telling you and everyone else that the "Oh these poor NA players!" or any other emotional argument isn't going to work on me. I work too goddamn hard at a job I don't really like to barely make ends meet to be moved by someone who *gasp* might have to do the same.
The real argument is that this will actually be better for prospective foreign players anyway. Either they work out a way to make it, or they fall away. Those who make it will be that much stronger and more worthy, and their success will mean that much more. Those who don't make it will have tried and failed, and learned something valuable in the process. It will be painful, it will be unpleasant, but in the long term, it is the only legitimate way.
reading your posts you seem to be of the thinking that;
1. Your life sucks, so everyone elses should
2. The BW scene that had basically no western followers is what sc2 should aim to be
They both seem like pretty legit arguments.
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United States5523 Posts
I guess I'm not sure how this is supposed to help anything. I guess we'll have to wait and see?
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United Kingdom14103 Posts
I prefer this setup, the finals last time was a joke tbh, it should be way tougher for everyone this time around.
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On April 10 2013 21:10 evergreensc wrote:
My issue with this has nothing to do with current pros. I don't really care about that.
My issue with this is that I thought WCS would be about encouraging the growth of the future scene. I thought that after a year or two of a region-locked, high-quality WCS, we could have had a much larger viewer base, better/more established team houses in NA/EU, a higher level of competition in NA/EU, more opportunity for players to devote themselves to the game, and eventually a World Championship that wasn't completely dominated by Koreans. Instead it seems to be about pumping more money into the scene for more of the same Korean domination. We have GSL Code S to see who's the best Korean, and by extension, the best player in the world right now. I don't care about a bigger, more complicated GSL Code S.
It's far from guaranteed that hard region locks would evolve the EU and NA scene. In fact I think it's entirely possible it would do the opposite. Yes we should have tournaments where foreigners get to compete against foreigners but I don't think the WCS should be about that. Sure it's not a perfect format but I feel people are focusing on the wrong things here.
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On April 10 2013 21:13 ch4iNz wrote:
so who is staying to play in korea wcs? no one? wtf
You're seriously underestimating the number of Korean sc2 progamers. There's going to be lots of good players still in WCS KR.
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On April 10 2013 21:10 tadL wrote:
Be happy that Koreans are coming. If no Koreans would play the US qualifier well EU would go there for the easy spot
lol XD
Hopefully this makes all three regions raise their game.
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On April 10 2013 21:11 pms wrote:
Thanks for the advice.
No problem, it's usually a good idea to have at least some knowledge of said subject something before you debate it.
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On April 10 2013 21:13 baldgye wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 21:10 sc2superfan101 wrote:
No my analogy is to explain why I have little sympathy for someone who doesn't succeed because of outside factors like money. It's basically me telling you and everyone else that the "Oh these poor NA players!" or any other emotional argument isn't going to work on me. I work too goddamn hard at a job I don't really like to barely make ends meet to be moved by someone who *gasp* might have to do the same.
The real argument is that this will actually be better for prospective foreign players anyway. Either they work out a way to make it, or they fall away. Those who make it will be that much stronger and more worthy, and their success will mean that much more. Those who don't make it will have tried and failed, and learned something valuable in the process. It will be painful, it will be unpleasant, but in the long term, it is the only legitimate way. reading your posts you seem to be of the thinking that; 1. Your life sucks, so everyone elses should 2. The BW scene that had basically no western followers is what sc2 should aim to be They both seem like pretty legit arguments.
1. strawman
2. strawman
If you want to engage his argument, don't make things up.
On April 10 2013 21:15 baldgye wrote:No problem, it's usually a good idea to have at least some knowledge of said subject something before you debate it.
Right back at you.
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On April 10 2013 21:08 Dvriel wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 21:03 Damnight wrote:
CALLED IT! When the fuck is Blizz. finally going to listen to personalities who support regional leagues! Like CatZ for example. It´s is rediculous.
1. Na is unawinnable for foreigners as of right now.
2. EU is close to impossible to win, atleast a good placement is reachable.
3. GSL without so many important characters? These are people who make a ton of people watch GSL in the first place.
I don't doubt that the skill and the prestige of GSL is going to grow nonetheless, but it will be a hell of a lot less interesting without lots of my favorite players......
4. Stephano couldn't have picked a better time to retire lolz 1.Maybe if NA players beginn practicing like the Koreans,they succeed. 2.Kas?Lucifron?Stephano?Snute?Thorzain?Naniwa? What did they in the GSL? Not enough skill yet... 3.GSL without who??? MC is Code A as MVP,MMA,Nestea,DRG... There are still very good players in COde S like Taeja,Innovation,MKP,Roro,Parting.Life,Leenock,Keen,Squirtle,Rain,Hyun,flash,Bomber,Losira...
3. indeed ppl just look at nicks forgeting the current form of a player. The big fishes are still in Korea. MC's last win was IEM like 6 months ago. MMA is IronSquid 11 months ago.
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On April 10 2013 21:10 evergreensc wrote:
My issue with this has nothing to do with current pros. I don't really care about that.
My issue with this is that I thought WCS would be about encouraging the growth of the future scene. I thought that after a year or two of a region-locked, high-quality WCS, we could have had a much larger viewer base, better/more established team houses in NA/EU, a higher level of competition in NA/EU, more opportunity for players to devote themselves to the game, and eventually a World Championship that wasn't completely dominated by Koreans. Instead it seems to be about pumping more money into the scene for more of the same Korean domination. We have GSL Code S to see who's the best Korean, and by extension, the best player in the world right now. I don't care about a bigger, more complicated GSL Code S.
i think last years wcs proved that just because you put more money in the scene and lock koreans out, na and eu players dont get anymore capable of competing. If they want to get on korean level, they have to play against koreans and face the challenge.
the catch is that most of wcs is offline so the korean players can stay in korea most of the time and if they have to play against each other even play on the korean server. That doesnt help increase the practise level of na player. because the koreans farm the prize money but arent moving their training infrastructure to na.
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Welp. I guess you will be able to add MKP's name in a few hours.
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I can understand a lot of Koreans playing in NA. Europe on other hand raises questions. I'm pretty sure EU <-> KR is close to unplayable. Are they all going to move to Europe? Are all the Eu-Koreans gonna start a Korean colony where they sharpen their skills of European ass-kickery together?
I really can't see Mvp moving to Europe. The guy doesn't seem to be very outgoing and I'm not sure how his English is either. but he might do it anyway to support his family or something, I dunno.
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EPT
