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On April 10 2013 20:48 MisterTea wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 18:10 bduddy wrote:
Oh, Blizzard. There is nothing good about this at all. GSL is worse, the "NA" championship will be a joke, and WCS EU now has the allure of an average weekend tournament. there's NOTHING bad about this at all. Overall the level of skill/competition is going to be getting higher NA/EU "natives" will be practicing with and against better people. if existing NA players want that money , they better work for it
They won't be practicing against them. They will just get wrecked by them in tournaments.
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On April 10 2013 20:47 Bwaaaa wrote:
Damn it blizzard why did you have to ruin the one league I watched religiously (codeS)? GSL without mvp? or Nestea? I am also sad about EG, TL and Axiom moving to NA and therefore abandoning the GSTL(sure the dates wont conflict but jet lag will kill any chance of competing). I will see what happens after the first season though to condemn it completely.
Havent you realised Nestea and MVP are actually Code B and Code A???They may never come back.Even Scarlett was able to beat MVP in the GSTL.They are legends,but are lil bit old(nestea) and got health issues(mvp).They dont got the level requiered to be in Code S anymore,thats why they are going out.Even YoDa beat MVP in the first HotS tournament showing who is the best LG-IM Terran now.
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On April 10 2013 20:47 arkedos wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 20:44 YuiHirasawa wrote:
Grzegorz Komincz @mouzMaNa
I wish people would consider Koreans appearance in WCS NA/EU as a motivation to harder practice than whining about it not being fair.
That's the way to go. And a lot of EU players think the same. No wonder why they always perform better than their NA counterparts. Quoted for absolute truth. This is one of the big differences between NA and EU.
there's only so much you can do against someone with a pro-house, coaches, endless high lvl people to talk to about strats, this ruins the EU and NA players who don't have the infrastructure to compete with koreans
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Time for EU and NA players to play on Korea?
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The funny thing is that so many people apparently consider NA the easiest way to money that it'll probably surpass EU in competition strength soon enough.
Feel pretty bad for the up and comers, the chances to make a name for yourself are gradually drying up and quickly too.
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Well that is a lot more Koreans moving to A/EU Leagues than I had expected. I was really hoping to see just a few on the Western owned teams because of the sponsorship exposure, doesn't make a lot of sense for Korean sponsored players to get exposure in the USA but most of these players don't really have to worry about that "problem".
I'm definitely worried about having a large number of Koreans representing the American League at the Regional Finals and World Finals at BlizzCon. I think the blog Adebisi posted made that one point very well, going to sound weird to hear: "And here is your American League Season 1 Champion...LGIM_Nestea!!!!!! Followed by your European League Champion...LGIM_MVP!!!" *crowd goes woo*
I would love to see true regional representation, but I can also see Blizzard's long-term plan to develop the A/EU Leagues by allowing the highest level of competition possible from the start. Here's hoping our true American representatives can compete with that dominating list of Koreans in the online portion.
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On April 10 2013 18:41 sc2superfan101 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 18:37 playa wrote:On April 10 2013 18:34 sc2superfan101 wrote:
Can someone please explain how this ruins anything?
Keep in mind that a GSL style NA/EU tournament with similar prize money didn't exist before this. Keep in mind that every country had a WCS last season and Koreans were only playing in the Korean WCS. Thus, non Koreans could actually win something... So now they actually have to play better players to win something... Oh no! I'm sorry but I'm having a real hard time sympathizing with all this entitlement coming out of the foreign scene right now.
I think you made your point now. About 10 times actually. To answer the question you insist on posting over and over again.
This could have been the tournament that made SC2 into a valid full time investment for talented foreign players around the world. They could have looked at SC2 and see that if they put in more time into the game they have reasonable possibilities to change it from being a time consuming hobby into an actual career.
Instead they look at it now and see kespa players that grinds in team house 12 hours a day, that have been doing so for years and lives in what otherwise is a vastly superior infrastructure for esport. Realize that they will not earn a dime until they are on their level or better <--- problem. That they need to achieve this level while doing other things that will actually earn them income and while mainly practice on say the NA ladder. <--- problem
I have doubts if it is even possible to reach the level of the top Koreans while playing SC2 on part time on the NA ladder. Or even at the current NA ladder at all. <-- problem
Many talented people look at this and realize what an insane gamble this is. To put in thousands of hours to try to bet players that are already vastly superior, more experienced and train in superior conditions. This combined makes so that the most likely prospect from your effort is that you will earn little to no money and will have nothing to put in your resume, after potential years of effort. This during time when many young people struggle to find an income despite of having solid educations. <---- problem
Now it the possibility might go down the drain and many people that could have become pro's might no become it as they see the unreasonable odds SC2 offers them. While also most likely have other responsibilities to take into consideration.
Then I can go into further into the discussion why it is bad for an e-sport to be completely dominated by one country
<--- problem. But to be honest I feel that the people that argue about this fact is so biased that they are no longer within the boarders of logic. The arguments are usually based on who wonderful human beings JD and Flash is, which unfortunately have little to no relevance for the discussion.
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On April 10 2013 20:46 Dodgin wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 20:44 YuiHirasawa wrote:
Grzegorz Komincz @mouzMaNa
I wish people would consider Koreans appearance in WCS NA/EU as a motivation to harder practice than whining about it not being fair.
That's the way to go. And a lot of EU players think the same. No wonder why they always perform better than their NA counterparts. Opinions seem pretty split, I saw Ret tweeting similar things as Mana but Dimaga responded to that tweet agreeing with Catz instead.
Well, Ret sounded like he didn't understand that Koreans won't live in the region they're playing in.
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Wow there's tons! Europe has some really big names. Can't wait to see all the games
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On April 10 2013 20:48 CajunMan wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 20:39 sc2superfan101 wrote:On April 10 2013 20:31 CajunMan wrote:On April 10 2013 20:06 sc2superfan101 wrote:On April 10 2013 19:58 CajunMan wrote:On April 10 2013 19:41 sc2superfan101 wrote:On April 10 2013 19:35 Type|NarutO wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On April 10 2013 19:27 Godwrath wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 19:18 sc2superfan101 wrote:On April 10 2013 19:10 budar wrote:On April 10 2013 18:52 sc2superfan101 wrote:On April 10 2013 18:47 Musicus wrote:On April 10 2013 18:41 sc2superfan101 wrote:On April 10 2013 18:37 playa wrote:On April 10 2013 18:34 sc2superfan101 wrote:
Can someone please explain how this ruins anything?
Keep in mind that a GSL style NA/EU tournament with similar prize money didn't exist before this. Keep in mind that every country had a WCS last season and Koreans were only playing in the Korean WCS. Thus, non Koreans could actually win something... So now they actually have to play better players to win something... Oh no! I'm sorry but I'm having a real hard time sympathizing with all this entitlement coming out of the foreign scene right now. They all have been code S players at some point in the past year most making deep runs. To tell me that list isn't among the best Koreans out there is just a flat lie. There will always be international tournaments with tons of top koreans stomping foreigners, but many wanted WCS to be the starcraft olympics. National champions being sent to the world final etc. Would you not enjoy that? Some regional competission leading up to a world final on top of all the international stuff? Not really. I'd probably watch the finals just for the Koreans though. I am one of those rarities that likes Korean players more for both personality and skill level. (emphasis mine) -> That's the whole point. I also don't really care where someone is from if they can play great games, but there are a lot of people who chose their favorite players based on other criteria, and that's actually perfectly fine and happens in all sports. Especially if you're cheering for your hometown/homecountry representative, it's really completely understandable and desirable. And the point that you are missing is that this is killing that. So you might get some great games in the first season (in the offline event, doubt the online part will be too hot after a few weeks of initial interest), but how long will that continue if viewership and general interest in the game declines. Just look at the LoL and DotA2 scenes... The situation in terms of skill is actually really similar to SC2. North american teams are behind EU teams who are behind Asian teams, with a handful of Stephano-like exceptions. But these scenes are completely separated except for THE big tournament where all roads lead to. The NA LCS is getting great numbers even though those teams are actually pretty weak right now. But hey, people care about them, they know these players from their stream etc. Anyway, it remains to be seen how this will turn out. I might actually watch the NA one now whereas without the Koreans I probably wouldn't have. But that's me and you and people like that. What about the "average Joe" browsing twitch and eating Hot Pockets? I still don't get how this kills the scene though... The only change is no more WCS and more money being funneled into the scene. You could argue that it doesn't advance the NA/EU scene as much as it could have, but then I would again disagree. In the region locked scenario, NA/EU would just stagnate and remain eternally inferior. Foreigners would have no incentive to reach the level to where they could beat Koreans. Was the old WCS really all that successful? I never bothered watching any of it so I don't know. Because WCS was an attempt to grow other region scene outside of korea, and this pretty much does the oppossite. Korean players won't be moving, but just playing online while mantaining their practice on their team houses and friends on korea. I don't think people would see so much troublewith koreans moving, if they were really moving. Specially if the different regions started to have some kind of hubs centralized for the teams to grow around. What grows the scene is INVESTMENT and DETERMINATION. All people who read CatZ post on reddit and think its clever really need to put some more thought into it. Korea didn't start with an eSports scene. They did build it with a huge playerbase. Teams / amateurs put up houses to practice in and pay fees to play there. Its not like they magically appeared and it was SKTelecomT1, CJ Entus, T8, STX SouL appearing from nowhere. In Europe and NA sponsors do more or less see 'us' / teams as product placement in eSports, but do they really care and support the scene because the scene is important? Don't know about that. In Korea its good image / good investment for a sponsor to invest into a starleague, into a team, because its not just product placement but overall public relation. I mentioned that a powerhouse like EG with potentially the money should host a house for 16 players, let them pay a certain amount so you can cover the costs at least by 70-90% so they have a house to practice in and food. Give them a schedule and potentially some experiecend coach, doesn't need to be a professional Korean one. The scene will grow based on something like this. Money ofcourse bringts interest, but if you really think it would improve the scene that you can easily get money in NA/EU you are wrong. Progamers wouldn't practice harder, just because they can get money more easily now. If they want to win money right now, they at least need to compete with Koreans - while if you make it region locked - banned Koreans - you can just stick at your level and yes, you can win money - you can sustain yourself, but is that motivation to increase skill and put more into it? Is it reason for more determination? I don't think so. Cheap pros look for easy money, while others look for skill. I understand all progamers and their arguments about money and that determination alone isn't enough to cover costs and put food on the table, but there's more to "give us money, we play" than some people make it sound. Good think its not nation-locked, Koreans should be there and play, the level will increase regardless of them playing only against each other or ladder , but at least we will see foreigners training and trying to get and steal games from Koreans. If we end up with 2 foreigners that are worthy in WCS global finals I am very happy. If we see an all Korean Final, also good. Don't know whats wrong with people nowadays, NA / EU people act like they put more on the line being a progamer than someone from Korea does, when the truth is that they put everything on the line and practice hard. Lots of them don't finish school (?) dont start job training etc. How many people / progamers do you think failed on their way to being successful? Now think about how much sallary EU/NA players get compared to an amateur Korean who PAYS to play in a good training environment.. Also towards the statement of CLGs manager @ CatZ skype: How ridiculous is that. If I were to sponsor a team and would see so much lack of determination and sense for competition I'd immediately quit them. Hilarious - how did they want to GROW TALENT to begin with when they only jump in and expect victories? Talents don't win from the start - you need to put time and money into it and it EVENTUALLY pays off, nothing guaranteed. Now a handfull of Koreans comes over that are good but they are human and you can potentially beat them and they just quit? Well right there you got the reason why Korea is superior to EU/US. Its right there, just look at it. So much this. I cannot for the life of me understand why these altruists who were gonna just pour money into the scene would run away because 10 Koreans moved into the scene. Obviously they weren't all that dedicated to the idea. I like how you say it like its 10 random B teamers that have never won anything. These are 10 of the BEST code S players or team aces one has won 3 gsls so ya excuse me if I'm a bit upset that the Korean SCSI won't actually have the BEST Koreans in it. Instead they come here and kill our scene that is getting off the ground finally an opportunity to raise better players finally a chance for those who play 10 hours a day to get noticed and get to make a living then be raised to compete on the highest level. Only 3 of them are Code S... The BEST Koreans, excepting one or two, aren't going anywhere as of yet. I agree that it sucks for foreigners who were expecting an easier way. But the easy way is not the way to balance the scenes. If this shit ain't brutal then there will be no way that foreigners can ever compete. Trust me guys, I'm a little worried too. I was absolutely expecting one of my favorite players in the world to be able to qualify easy, and now he might not. But if he doesn't than that is his fault. Not Blizzards, not Koreans. His. I understand that NA/EU need more infrastructure. But you know what, judging by this thread. It isn't just infrastructure. It's attitude. LOL and it is his fault he doesn't have a training house where he can play as much as he needs everyday with food and living taken care of. So sorry he probably has to work part to full time then on top of that most likely has to go to school because he is given no opportunity. The best player in na will stay the way they are not because of lack of determination or will but the fact that they have more responsibility and less time in the day. How many people you think would give it all up for 3 meals a day and a computer? I know a Damn lot of them but that is not even an option its a spit in the face to call these players out like they are sitting with the same exact settings and life of these Koreans and expect the same results. And by letting these top players come over instead of opening up options you are hamstringing them before anything even happens. Actually this guy doesn't work or go to school  Do Koreans have less responsibilities? Do their days last more than 24 hours? They have infrastructure, yes, and that is a big part of it. It also seems they have, in general, a more solid attitude about the game and the sacrifices it requires. I'm not calling the players out, I'm just calling it how I see it. If they want to succeed, than they have to work extremely hard. And even then success is not guaranteed. I don't see how actually guaranteeing success by banning all of the remotely good players from the scene is in any way going to keep them from treating it like a part-time thing though. They're options are more limited now, and the competition is fiercer. IMO, this is exactly how it should be. Life is tough, and if you aren't gonna be more tough than maybe professional athletics isn't for you. Sad fact, but there it is. So we admit the na scenes short comings and that even if they have a chance not to succeed they have a Fucking chance. But we are going to still blame na players lack of attitude and there poor assess for being unable to afford full time play. EVERYBODY POINT AND LAUGH AT THE PEASANTS AHAHAHAHAHA
You know what's funny. I always wanted to ride BMX and dirt-bikes competitively. Only daddy didn't have enough money for either. So while I had friends who got to try it out... I never did. Some of my friends even made it into the competitive scene. And poor little me, my parents couldn't afford it so I never even got a chance.
It was around that time that I learned two things:
1) Life isn't fair.
2) Complaining that life isn't fair is the best way to never succeed.
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On April 10 2013 20:50 Dvriel wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 20:47 Bwaaaa wrote:
Damn it blizzard why did you have to ruin the one league I watched religiously (codeS)? GSL without mvp? or Nestea? I am also sad about EG, TL and Axiom moving to NA and therefore abandoning the GSTL(sure the dates wont conflict but jet lag will kill any chance of competing). I will see what happens after the first season though to condemn it completely. Havent you realised Nestea and MVP are actually Code B and Code A???They may never come back.Even Scarlett was able to beat MVP in the GSTL.They are legends,but are lil bit old(nestea) and got health issues(mvp).They dont got the level requiered to be in Code S anymore,thats why they are going out.Even YoDa beat MVP in the first HotS tournament showing who is the best LG-IM Terran now.
Everytime someone says this one of them wins gsl so please keep telling then they can't.
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On April 10 2013 20:49 xAdra wrote:
I am one who doesn't give two shits about the "foreigner scene", but I don't like this for another simple reason:
GSL is gutted, it's no longer the greatest collection of skill in the world any longer. I mean, with mvp, MC, MMA, Hyun, Taeja, HerO and others dispersed all over the world, what remains of the GSL?
There's still going to be lots of Korean players in GSL don't worry. The only ones changing region are either on a foreign team or on LG-IM (and a few players from Team MVP going to EU) There will be plenty of competitors in KR and they will still have the best players.
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On April 10 2013 20:46 Ethi wrote:
Nestea isn't in Europe because he's still scared of Goody.
Good one :D
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On April 10 2013 20:49 Corrosive wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 20:48 MisterTea wrote:On April 10 2013 18:10 bduddy wrote:
Oh, Blizzard. There is nothing good about this at all. GSL is worse, the "NA" championship will be a joke, and WCS EU now has the allure of an average weekend tournament. there's NOTHING bad about this at all. Overall the level of skill/competition is going to be getting higher NA/EU "natives" will be practicing with and against better people. if existing NA players want that money , they better work for it They won't be practicing against them. They will just get wrecked by them in tournaments.
Just at the moment, the plans are to make the tournaments offline so that they actually move to these regions and practice there. It's obvious that it's not going to happen all at once, it'll take time.
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On April 10 2013 20:48 MisterTea wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 18:10 bduddy wrote:
Oh, Blizzard. There is nothing good about this at all. GSL is worse, the "NA" championship will be a joke, and WCS EU now has the allure of an average weekend tournament. there's NOTHING bad about this at all. Overall the level of skill/competition is going to be getting higher NA/EU "natives" will be practicing with and against better people. if existing NA players want that money , they better work for it
Yeah, in the teamhouses that don't exist with the infrastructure that doesn't exist.
NA players play a lot, and work hard just like EU players.
The reason why koreans are better isn't because Koreans practice harder, it's because they have the facilities to whereas all an NA player has is ladder.
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On April 10 2013 20:46 Dodgin wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 20:44 YuiHirasawa wrote:
Grzegorz Komincz @mouzMaNa
I wish people would consider Koreans appearance in WCS NA/EU as a motivation to harder practice than whining about it not being fair.
That's the way to go. And a lot of EU players think the same. No wonder why they always perform better than their NA counterparts. Opinions seem pretty split, I saw Ret tweeting similar things as Mana but Dimaga responded to that tweet agreeing with Catz instead.
Well its not that spilt then  When you look at recent results Mana and Ret are doing quite good, while Dimaga doesnt not even mention Catz :D If you are confident, and wanna improve you like this, if you just want to make some money of your hobby then you dont. As a player ocf, viewers opinions have different points.
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On April 10 2013 20:50 Resilient wrote:
The funny thing is that so many people apparently consider NA the easiest way to money that it'll probably surpass EU in competition strength soon enough.
Feel pretty bad for the up and comers, the chances to make a name for yourself are gradually drying up and quickly too.
This. Why would any company invest in the EU and NA scene when koreans come over and win everything, if you want esports to grow in NA and EU then you need to have big tourneys that showcase the talent from those regions, oh wait, all you care about is watching high lvl starcraft for free, my mistake
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Ugh after reading that CLG was about to open a NA team house and invest into sc2, but cancelled after this "news" I feel sick.
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On April 10 2013 20:35 xluik wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 20:33 AgentW wrote:On April 10 2013 20:31 Dr.Sin wrote:
What's going to happen to EGTL and Proleague? No change, they're just playing online for WCS and LAN if they make the finals, On April 10 2013 20:32 Kergy wrote:
so who benefits from this? Koreans, man. Nope, koreans lose out partially on airfare if they don't win so it's a calculated risk. The main winners are tournament organizers.
It's just one weekend though, so one trip, and only if they've already made the RO8.
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On April 10 2013 20:44 YuiHirasawa wrote:
Grzegorz Komincz @mouzMaNa
I wish people would consider Koreans appearance in WCS NA/EU as a motivation to harder practice than whining about it not being fair.
That's the way to go. And a lot of EU players think the same. No wonder why they always perform better than their NA counterparts.
Yeah. That's great for MaNa when he's already an incredible player with a name for himself and quite the achieving in earnings. He's probably going to beat a lot of the Koreans anyways and be just fine. It's easy enough for him to stand up and say shit like this to seem like a badass and increase his image when everyone else has legitimate complaints.
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EPT
