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On April 10 2013 20:40 lookfirewood wrote:Probably easier for some foreigners to qualify in korea at the moment! 
i dont think so, all the very best players are staying in KR
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The biggest problem about infrastructure is that koreans have these prohouses or amateur houses with coaches.
To win you need to be good. To be good you need to practice a lot, but you also need to worry about place to live in and also some food, in Korea you join prohouse or amateurhouse, you have a place to sleep, you get food, all you need to do is practice, i',m not even talking about coaches, schedule, practice partners, discussion, non-stop surround by other players to boost your motivation.
In EU there are NO prohouses/amateur houses, you cant get a good practice environment, you either live with parents who pay for all ur expenses and are shocked that you're lazy bitch playing computer games 8-12 hours a day thinking you can become a progamer once or pay for everything yourself, this is rent, bills, food, but where do you get these money? You either work and sc2 is a hobby or you are full time and it's extremely hard for you to survive unless you'are an established player. There was a Ministry of Win, but you need to pay 500 eu/month to stay there, where the hell do you get so much money? That sounds more like a hobby for rich people. There are not so many new names incoming, because it's very hard to make such choice, to go full-time, especially for new players who are like low-mid-masters, because it will require some time to reach competitive level. That's why mostly people play sc2 as a hobby, it's not job for them.
If everyone have same conditions, then it's fair, if koreans had to live in EU/US to take part in WCS, that would be fair. For example, ForGG live in Europe now, so it's absolutely fair for him, because he's playing EU ladder with same people, he's not practicing with code S koreans. This would have worked if there was only one server, as it was in beta, so that eu/us players could practice with koreans, and players could choose which region is better for them.
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EU is fine, with a nice amount of European vs Korean competition and still good chances for a couple Europeans to get far, like in MLGs or Dreamhacks in the past. America? Not the slightest chance, it'll be a slaughter in the first rounds and pure inter-Korean competition later on.
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On April 10 2013 20:41 AgentW wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 20:38 Dvriel wrote:On April 10 2013 20:28 AgentW wrote:On April 10 2013 20:27 Dvriel wrote:On April 10 2013 20:24 AgentW wrote:
Quite frankly, I'm appalled. I was expecting Code B players with money to switch, but the caliber of the players making the move is crippling for the NA scene. Imagine if you're a GM player who was looking to grab one of the 8 qualifier slots and looking to make a name for yourself? You have to seriously consider not even playing now. If you wanted the best games, I hope you're happy, we have GSL gutted, NA totally dominated by Koreans, and Europe who has to deal with freaking Mvp and friends. If you can look at me with a straight face and tell me this is working as intended, I simply won't believe you. Why dont you try to practice 12 a day and win some MLG or DH? I bet after this you wil make a NAME and you wont give a **** about who is your enemy and if he is from China or NY... Because I'm in Plat and have a job? Nice.Me too.Platinum and got job,so no hope for me going to GSL,but I like to watch SC2.The same way I enjoy the Champions League and dont care about the japanese or USA soccer league,but I dont WANT or EXPECT any Japanese or African team to be better than Barcelona or Chelsea.Its no sense.We cant hail mediocrity.Only the best and the ones to work hard deserve to be in the spotlight,so there is no problem for me to see MMA vs MVP in the EU finals.It will always be better than Idra vs Kas.... But if this was intended to be an Olympic style competition, which apparently now it wasn't, you can't have it like this. It has to be like WCG or last year's WCS. What people fail to understand, IMO, is that although the Koreans are clearly the best, NA and EU are where the money is. If you want to attract sponsors and continue the viability of SC2, you have to rope in sponsors, and white guys winning something is a huge thing to take to your sponsors.
Sponsors dont care if white guys winning, they just seeking to create some kind of revenue for their sponsorship (usually through ad revenue). So as long as the viewer numbers maintain high, there wont be any problem to find sponsors.
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On April 10 2013 20:38 Dvriel wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 20:28 AgentW wrote:On April 10 2013 20:27 Dvriel wrote:On April 10 2013 20:24 AgentW wrote:
Quite frankly, I'm appalled. I was expecting Code B players with money to switch, but the caliber of the players making the move is crippling for the NA scene. Imagine if you're a GM player who was looking to grab one of the 8 qualifier slots and looking to make a name for yourself? You have to seriously consider not even playing now. If you wanted the best games, I hope you're happy, we have GSL gutted, NA totally dominated by Koreans, and Europe who has to deal with freaking Mvp and friends. If you can look at me with a straight face and tell me this is working as intended, I simply won't believe you. Why dont you try to practice 12 a day and win some MLG or DH? I bet after this you wil make a NAME and you wont give a **** about who is your enemy and if he is from China or NY... Because I'm in Plat and have a job? Nice.Me too.Platinum and got job,so no hope for me going to GSL,but I like to watch SC2.The same way I enjoy the Champions League and dont care about the japanese or USA soccer league,but I dont WANT or EXPECT any Japanese or African team to be better than Barcelona or Chelsea.Its no sense.We cant hail mediocrity.Only the best and the ones to work hard deserve to be in the spotlight,so there is no problem for me to see MMA vs MVP in the EU finals.It will always be better than Idra vs Kas....
Except all those soccer leagues lose out to the world cup because people like to support there country not to randoms they have no emotional investment in. There is a reason why a Duke vs Kentucky ncaa basketball final is hyped and promoted and sells like mad. Then on the other hand a uconn vs Minnesota final would be empty. They may be the BEST teams in basketball ball no one besides the few people who went to those schools care.
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it's shit like this that will only further drive away the euro and NA scenes from sc2, well, as long as the koreans are getting paid and we get to watch top lvl games right?
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So basically only 4 koreans that are not paid by foreign teams are switching to EU or NA and no Kespa players at all? I don't think this is such a big fail on Blizzards part, since its clear that the foreign organizations themselves want to import Korean talent to EU and NA scenes.
The organizations could have easily decided together to keep their korean players in the korean league, but then again it seems they want the exposure from EU and NA leagues more than they want to "grow local talent".
I think it is fair that the players that are paid by western teams are able to compete in western league, since they represent western sponsors anyway.
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MLG are loving life right about now. GSL Code S, not so much.
Quite obvious from this though that teams want their players to be playing in their region, which is fair enough.
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On April 10 2013 20:31 pms wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 20:27 baldgye wrote:
Reading CatZ post on reddit and the other blog posts from pro players, I thought that the problem was over-stated and that realistically not that many Koreans would play in the other leagues because of practical problems of playing tournaments in other countries.
Seems that I was wrong. This is shaping up to be the dumbest tournament yet, Blizzard really REALLY messed up and kinda continue to show there ignorance (at this point what else could it be?) at how ESPORTS actually works and how to help grow sc2 as a sport that is sustainable. Could you please provide some arguments?...
Could you please explain what you mean?...
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Grzegorz Komincz @mouzMaNa
I wish people would consider Koreans appearance in WCS NA/EU as a motivation to harder practice than whining about it not being fair.
That's the way to go. And a lot of EU players think the same. No wonder why they always perform better than their NA counterparts.
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Nestea isn't in Europe because he's still scared of Goody.
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On April 10 2013 20:44 YuiHirasawa wrote:
Grzegorz Komincz @mouzMaNa
I wish people would consider Koreans appearance in WCS NA/EU as a motivation to harder practice than whining about it not being fair.
That's the way to go. And a lot of EU players think the same. No wonder why they always perform better than their NA counterparts.
Opinions seem pretty split, I saw Ret tweeting similar things as Mana but Dimaga responded to that tweet agreeing with Catz instead.
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Notice that nobody on kespa moved. And looking at how beefy the NA lineup is and how many esf koreans we could see go to Europe, I'm pretty sure that the original code s is going to be a place where kespa players fight each other
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On April 10 2013 20:44 YuiHirasawa wrote:
Grzegorz Komincz @mouzMaNa
I wish people would consider Koreans appearance in WCS NA/EU as a motivation to harder practice than whining about it not being fair.
That's the way to go. And a lot of EU players think the same. No wonder why they always perform better than their NA counterparts.
Quoted for absolute truth. This is one of the big differences between NA and EU.
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Damn it blizzard why did you have to ruin the one league I watched religiously (codeS)? GSL without mvp? or Nestea? I am also sad about EG, TL and Axiom moving to NA and therefore abandoning the GSTL(sure the dates wont conflict but jet lag will kill any chance of competing). I will see what happens after the first season though to condemn it completely.
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On April 10 2013 18:10 bduddy wrote:
Oh, Blizzard. There is nothing good about this at all. GSL is worse, the "NA" championship will be a joke, and WCS EU now has the allure of an average weekend tournament.
there's NOTHING bad about this at all.
Overall the level of skill/competition is going to be getting higher NA/EU "natives" will be practicing with and against better people.
if existing NA players want that money , they better work for it
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On April 10 2013 20:39 sc2superfan101 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 20:31 CajunMan wrote:On April 10 2013 20:06 sc2superfan101 wrote:On April 10 2013 19:58 CajunMan wrote:On April 10 2013 19:41 sc2superfan101 wrote:On April 10 2013 19:35 Type|NarutO wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On April 10 2013 19:27 Godwrath wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 19:18 sc2superfan101 wrote:On April 10 2013 19:10 budar wrote:On April 10 2013 18:52 sc2superfan101 wrote:On April 10 2013 18:47 Musicus wrote:On April 10 2013 18:41 sc2superfan101 wrote:On April 10 2013 18:37 playa wrote:On April 10 2013 18:34 sc2superfan101 wrote:
Can someone please explain how this ruins anything?
Keep in mind that a GSL style NA/EU tournament with similar prize money didn't exist before this. Keep in mind that every country had a WCS last season and Koreans were only playing in the Korean WCS. Thus, non Koreans could actually win something... So now they actually have to play better players to win something... Oh no! I'm sorry but I'm having a real hard time sympathizing with all this entitlement coming out of the foreign scene right now. They all have been code S players at some point in the past year most making deep runs. To tell me that list isn't among the best Koreans out there is just a flat lie. There will always be international tournaments with tons of top koreans stomping foreigners, but many wanted WCS to be the starcraft olympics. National champions being sent to the world final etc. Would you not enjoy that? Some regional competission leading up to a world final on top of all the international stuff? Not really. I'd probably watch the finals just for the Koreans though. I am one of those rarities that likes Korean players more for both personality and skill level. (emphasis mine) -> That's the whole point. I also don't really care where someone is from if they can play great games, but there are a lot of people who chose their favorite players based on other criteria, and that's actually perfectly fine and happens in all sports. Especially if you're cheering for your hometown/homecountry representative, it's really completely understandable and desirable. And the point that you are missing is that this is killing that. So you might get some great games in the first season (in the offline event, doubt the online part will be too hot after a few weeks of initial interest), but how long will that continue if viewership and general interest in the game declines. Just look at the LoL and DotA2 scenes... The situation in terms of skill is actually really similar to SC2. North american teams are behind EU teams who are behind Asian teams, with a handful of Stephano-like exceptions. But these scenes are completely separated except for THE big tournament where all roads lead to. The NA LCS is getting great numbers even though those teams are actually pretty weak right now. But hey, people care about them, they know these players from their stream etc. Anyway, it remains to be seen how this will turn out. I might actually watch the NA one now whereas without the Koreans I probably wouldn't have. But that's me and you and people like that. What about the "average Joe" browsing twitch and eating Hot Pockets? I still don't get how this kills the scene though... The only change is no more WCS and more money being funneled into the scene. You could argue that it doesn't advance the NA/EU scene as much as it could have, but then I would again disagree. In the region locked scenario, NA/EU would just stagnate and remain eternally inferior. Foreigners would have no incentive to reach the level to where they could beat Koreans. Was the old WCS really all that successful? I never bothered watching any of it so I don't know. Because WCS was an attempt to grow other region scene outside of korea, and this pretty much does the oppossite. Korean players won't be moving, but just playing online while mantaining their practice on their team houses and friends on korea. I don't think people would see so much troublewith koreans moving, if they were really moving. Specially if the different regions started to have some kind of hubs centralized for the teams to grow around. What grows the scene is INVESTMENT and DETERMINATION. All people who read CatZ post on reddit and think its clever really need to put some more thought into it. Korea didn't start with an eSports scene. They did build it with a huge playerbase. Teams / amateurs put up houses to practice in and pay fees to play there. Its not like they magically appeared and it was SKTelecomT1, CJ Entus, T8, STX SouL appearing from nowhere. In Europe and NA sponsors do more or less see 'us' / teams as product placement in eSports, but do they really care and support the scene because the scene is important? Don't know about that. In Korea its good image / good investment for a sponsor to invest into a starleague, into a team, because its not just product placement but overall public relation. I mentioned that a powerhouse like EG with potentially the money should host a house for 16 players, let them pay a certain amount so you can cover the costs at least by 70-90% so they have a house to practice in and food. Give them a schedule and potentially some experiecend coach, doesn't need to be a professional Korean one. The scene will grow based on something like this. Money ofcourse bringts interest, but if you really think it would improve the scene that you can easily get money in NA/EU you are wrong. Progamers wouldn't practice harder, just because they can get money more easily now. If they want to win money right now, they at least need to compete with Koreans - while if you make it region locked - banned Koreans - you can just stick at your level and yes, you can win money - you can sustain yourself, but is that motivation to increase skill and put more into it? Is it reason for more determination? I don't think so. Cheap pros look for easy money, while others look for skill. I understand all progamers and their arguments about money and that determination alone isn't enough to cover costs and put food on the table, but there's more to "give us money, we play" than some people make it sound. Good think its not nation-locked, Koreans should be there and play, the level will increase regardless of them playing only against each other or ladder , but at least we will see foreigners training and trying to get and steal games from Koreans. If we end up with 2 foreigners that are worthy in WCS global finals I am very happy. If we see an all Korean Final, also good. Don't know whats wrong with people nowadays, NA / EU people act like they put more on the line being a progamer than someone from Korea does, when the truth is that they put everything on the line and practice hard. Lots of them don't finish school (?) dont start job training etc. How many people / progamers do you think failed on their way to being successful? Now think about how much sallary EU/NA players get compared to an amateur Korean who PAYS to play in a good training environment.. Also towards the statement of CLGs manager @ CatZ skype: How ridiculous is that. If I were to sponsor a team and would see so much lack of determination and sense for competition I'd immediately quit them. Hilarious - how did they want to GROW TALENT to begin with when they only jump in and expect victories? Talents don't win from the start - you need to put time and money into it and it EVENTUALLY pays off, nothing guaranteed. Now a handfull of Koreans comes over that are good but they are human and you can potentially beat them and they just quit? Well right there you got the reason why Korea is superior to EU/US. Its right there, just look at it. So much this. I cannot for the life of me understand why these altruists who were gonna just pour money into the scene would run away because 10 Koreans moved into the scene. Obviously they weren't all that dedicated to the idea. I like how you say it like its 10 random B teamers that have never won anything. These are 10 of the BEST code S players or team aces one has won 3 gsls so ya excuse me if I'm a bit upset that the Korean SCSI won't actually have the BEST Koreans in it. Instead they come here and kill our scene that is getting off the ground finally an opportunity to raise better players finally a chance for those who play 10 hours a day to get noticed and get to make a living then be raised to compete on the highest level. Only 3 of them are Code S... The BEST Koreans, excepting one or two, aren't going anywhere as of yet. I agree that it sucks for foreigners who were expecting an easier way. But the easy way is not the way to balance the scenes. If this shit ain't brutal then there will be no way that foreigners can ever compete. Trust me guys, I'm a little worried too. I was absolutely expecting one of my favorite players in the world to be able to qualify easy, and now he might not. But if he doesn't than that is his fault. Not Blizzards, not Koreans. His. I understand that NA/EU need more infrastructure. But you know what, judging by this thread. It isn't just infrastructure. It's attitude. LOL and it is his fault he doesn't have a training house where he can play as much as he needs everyday with food and living taken care of. So sorry he probably has to work part to full time then on top of that most likely has to go to school because he is given no opportunity. The best player in na will stay the way they are not because of lack of determination or will but the fact that they have more responsibility and less time in the day. How many people you think would give it all up for 3 meals a day and a computer? I know a Damn lot of them but that is not even an option its a spit in the face to call these players out like they are sitting with the same exact settings and life of these Koreans and expect the same results. And by letting these top players come over instead of opening up options you are hamstringing them before anything even happens. Actually this guy doesn't work or go to school  Do Koreans have less responsibilities? Do their days last more than 24 hours? They have infrastructure, yes, and that is a big part of it. It also seems they have, in general, a more solid attitude about the game and the sacrifices it requires. I'm not calling the players out, I'm just calling it how I see it. If they want to succeed, than they have to work extremely hard. And even then success is not guaranteed. I don't see how actually guaranteeing success by banning all of the remotely good players from the scene is in any way going to keep them from treating it like a part-time thing though. They're options are more limited now, and the competition is fiercer. IMO, this is exactly how it should be. Life is tough, and if you aren't gonna be more tough than maybe professional athletics isn't for you. Sad fact, but there it is.
So we admit the na scenes short comings and that even if they have a chance not to succeed they have a Fucking chance. But we are going to still blame na players lack of attitude and there poor assess for being unable to afford full time play. EVERYBODY POINT AND LAUGH AT THE PEASANTS AHAHAHAHAHA
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Who gives a fuck what EU thinks when only a few Korean players have been named so far? As it stands, this years WCS is way better for them than last years. Everything is about perspective and pretty much the best player in EU in an "untouched" region saying this means jack shit.
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On April 10 2013 20:38 LOGMATHR wrote:
Do we have any clear answers to if they will move to their region or just play online until the Ro8 offline weekend event? Anyway this sucks imo, i dont like that Koreans are taking over everywhere lol... theres no room left for new players to grow anymore.
Stop it of course there is, you will still have qualifiers and challenger (stupid ass names btw) divisions. And thats whats most important, a structured competition on a regular base so players have always something to play for and learn from. And yeah shame most of them wont make a lot of money from it but the hole system is still good for the development of players.
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I am one who doesn't give two shits about the "foreigner scene", but I don't like this for another simple reason:
GSL is gutted, it's no longer the greatest collection of skill in the world any longer. I mean, with mvp, MC, MMA, Hyun, Taeja, HerO and others dispersed all over the world, what remains of the GSL?
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EPT
