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On April 03 2013 23:58 Incomplet wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2013 23:49 Plansix wrote:On April 03 2013 23:40 Incomplet wrote:On April 03 2013 23:33 opterown wrote:On April 03 2013 23:30 Incomplet wrote:On April 03 2013 23:26 Doodsmack wrote:On April 03 2013 23:17 Incomplet wrote:
I've never quite understood the phobia people have of Korean dominance.
Because you cant relate to the person? Get to know them! Read their interviews, check out their liquidpedias, and go watch the bloody GSL, I guarantee you that this will the best well spent money you have ever spent!
Or is it because of the Koreans have no personality stereotype? 5 mins of searching through google or TL will prove yourself wrong. It's not hard to find a funny GIF of a Korean doing silly celebrations which no foreigners have never dared do in the public eye.
Or is it mindless patriotism for their country folks? C'mon this is a computer game, are you really liking a certain player because he merely from the same country as you? Who cares about that, don't let patriotism / racism cloud your judgement of what truly entertaining and skilllful sc2 games are.
Koreans already dominate the scene as it is, in the worse case scenario, nothing will change and the dominance will continue. But maybe, just MAYBE, this could help give that motivational push to drive the foreign players to work harder. At the very least, rather than giving in to your reflex action to automatically dismiss all drastic changes in defence, just let it play out for a bit before passing judgement. Lol @ bringing the racism word into discussions about people rooting for their own country rather than Koreans. It's called being a fan, you choose your favorite, usually based on proximity, and root for them rather than rooting for whoever has the most skill from month to month. It's only natural to have pride about where you're from, and its just unintelligent to use the word racism here. Proud losers. In sc2, it would make more sense to barrack for someone who impresses you with their play style or personality. Not what country they are bloody from. Despicable. I think it's perfectly fair to root for your own country's players, especially if you're a fairly casual viewer. kind of like in the olympics. in general, you root for your country, not for the personalities of individual athletes etc This is not the Olympics though. Of course I understand what I say will not change the fact people will mindlessly barrack for their own country no matter the sport. But I still find it disgusting that the mindless sheep will always just follow what is familiar to them with no sense of autonomy what so ever to make a rational decision on what is truly important in the characteristics of each player. You are over generalizing the scene and the reasons why people want local leagues and tournaments in an effort to make your argument of racism. People don’t care about the race of the player, because there are Asian players in NA that we cheer for(Suppy). People want a league for NA in the style of GSL, on at a reasonable time and with the option for local players to attempt to compete in that event. People do not care about who plays as much as they want the option for players to play in their region, rather than fly to Korea. We don’t care were people are from, but we want an open league like the GSL that allows for players to compete locally. After that, the community really doesn’t care who shows up to qualify. While I understand your POV. Unfortunately the majority of critism is directed at the potential further Korean dominance. Spoon feeding foreign players into the finals is not going to help in the long run, throwing them in the deep end and telling them, train harder until you can keep up us how you do it. Most of the players are adults and they need to treated like adults. And as an adult, you realise the results you obtain have a direct correlation to the effort you put in.
No, demanding that NA players fly to Korea to train for a year just to become good enough to win a single NA event will just kill the NA scene. There is no reason for a new player to come into the scene if they need to get signed to a team with the ability to send him to Korea for a year or more. And that new player will never get signed to a team, because the chances of them winning a major event against top Korean are so low its not worth trying. There is no entry level, so there is no growth.
Having one dominant region does nothing for the growth of the game for scene and there is no reason to support a region that is already winning and viable. It will only stifle growth and prevent new people from coming to the scene. Blizzard has not reason to do that, as they want the game to be successful everywhere.
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On April 03 2013 23:58 Incomplet wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2013 23:49 Plansix wrote:On April 03 2013 23:40 Incomplet wrote:On April 03 2013 23:33 opterown wrote:On April 03 2013 23:30 Incomplet wrote:On April 03 2013 23:26 Doodsmack wrote:On April 03 2013 23:17 Incomplet wrote:
I've never quite understood the phobia people have of Korean dominance.
Because you cant relate to the person? Get to know them! Read their interviews, check out their liquidpedias, and go watch the bloody GSL, I guarantee you that this will the best well spent money you have ever spent!
Or is it because of the Koreans have no personality stereotype? 5 mins of searching through google or TL will prove yourself wrong. It's not hard to find a funny GIF of a Korean doing silly celebrations which no foreigners have never dared do in the public eye.
Or is it mindless patriotism for their country folks? C'mon this is a computer game, are you really liking a certain player because he merely from the same country as you? Who cares about that, don't let patriotism / racism cloud your judgement of what truly entertaining and skilllful sc2 games are.
Koreans already dominate the scene as it is, in the worse case scenario, nothing will change and the dominance will continue. But maybe, just MAYBE, this could help give that motivational push to drive the foreign players to work harder. At the very least, rather than giving in to your reflex action to automatically dismiss all drastic changes in defence, just let it play out for a bit before passing judgement. Lol @ bringing the racism word into discussions about people rooting for their own country rather than Koreans. It's called being a fan, you choose your favorite, usually based on proximity, and root for them rather than rooting for whoever has the most skill from month to month. It's only natural to have pride about where you're from, and its just unintelligent to use the word racism here. Proud losers. In sc2, it would make more sense to barrack for someone who impresses you with their play style or personality. Not what country they are bloody from. Despicable. I think it's perfectly fair to root for your own country's players, especially if you're a fairly casual viewer. kind of like in the olympics. in general, you root for your country, not for the personalities of individual athletes etc This is not the Olympics though. Of course I understand what I say will not change the fact people will mindlessly barrack for their own country no matter the sport. But I still find it disgusting that the mindless sheep will always just follow what is familiar to them with no sense of autonomy what so ever to make a rational decision on what is truly important in the characteristics of each player. You are over generalizing the scene and the reasons why people want local leagues and tournaments in an effort to make your argument of racism. People don’t care about the race of the player, because there are Asian players in NA that we cheer for(Suppy). People want a league for NA in the style of GSL, on at a reasonable time and with the option for local players to attempt to compete in that event. People do not care about who plays as much as they want the option for players to play in their region, rather than fly to Korea. We don’t care were people are from, but we want an open league like the GSL that allows for players to compete locally. After that, the community really doesn’t care who shows up to qualify. While I understand your POV. Unfortunately the majority of critism is directed at the potential further Korean dominance. Spoon feeding foreign players into the finals is not going to help in the long run, throwing them in the deep end and telling them, train harder until you can keep up us how you do it. Most of the players are adults and they need to treated like adults. And as an adult, you realise the results you obtain have a direct correlation to the effort you put in.
The problem is, that in NA at least, there is no way for these players to ever get to the same skill level. There is no real local tournaments outside of the really small ones, and the superstar ones (MLG/Red Bull LANs) that any new pro (NA, EU, or KR) will get destroyed by the likes of Life/Flash/"insert big name here", and that's if they even get invited. What a lot of us want is a respectable league (I'm looking at you NASL) that limits the players to just NA so that we can invest our time in lesser known players and watch them get better. This can only really happen if they have attainable goals, and 'beat GSL code S superstars' is not an attainable goal for really any new player trying his hands at going pro.
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I don't really get it (And I haven't read all the 100 pages, shame on me ) :o
The players have to choose in which region they want to play AND GSL/MLG are the WCS for each region - therefore we will no longer see any foreigners in GSL and no Koreans in MLG, or better: a player can't play at MLG AND in GSL the same year?
Or can they participate but the spots will just be given to the ones which decided to play in that specific region?
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On April 04 2013 00:06 GattAttack wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2013 23:58 Incomplet wrote:On April 03 2013 23:49 Plansix wrote:On April 03 2013 23:40 Incomplet wrote:On April 03 2013 23:33 opterown wrote:On April 03 2013 23:30 Incomplet wrote:On April 03 2013 23:26 Doodsmack wrote:On April 03 2013 23:17 Incomplet wrote:
I've never quite understood the phobia people have of Korean dominance.
Because you cant relate to the person? Get to know them! Read their interviews, check out their liquidpedias, and go watch the bloody GSL, I guarantee you that this will the best well spent money you have ever spent!
Or is it because of the Koreans have no personality stereotype? 5 mins of searching through google or TL will prove yourself wrong. It's not hard to find a funny GIF of a Korean doing silly celebrations which no foreigners have never dared do in the public eye.
Or is it mindless patriotism for their country folks? C'mon this is a computer game, are you really liking a certain player because he merely from the same country as you? Who cares about that, don't let patriotism / racism cloud your judgement of what truly entertaining and skilllful sc2 games are.
Koreans already dominate the scene as it is, in the worse case scenario, nothing will change and the dominance will continue. But maybe, just MAYBE, this could help give that motivational push to drive the foreign players to work harder. At the very least, rather than giving in to your reflex action to automatically dismiss all drastic changes in defence, just let it play out for a bit before passing judgement. Lol @ bringing the racism word into discussions about people rooting for their own country rather than Koreans. It's called being a fan, you choose your favorite, usually based on proximity, and root for them rather than rooting for whoever has the most skill from month to month. It's only natural to have pride about where you're from, and its just unintelligent to use the word racism here. Proud losers. In sc2, it would make more sense to barrack for someone who impresses you with their play style or personality. Not what country they are bloody from. Despicable. I think it's perfectly fair to root for your own country's players, especially if you're a fairly casual viewer. kind of like in the olympics. in general, you root for your country, not for the personalities of individual athletes etc This is not the Olympics though. Of course I understand what I say will not change the fact people will mindlessly barrack for their own country no matter the sport. But I still find it disgusting that the mindless sheep will always just follow what is familiar to them with no sense of autonomy what so ever to make a rational decision on what is truly important in the characteristics of each player. You are over generalizing the scene and the reasons why people want local leagues and tournaments in an effort to make your argument of racism. People don’t care about the race of the player, because there are Asian players in NA that we cheer for(Suppy). People want a league for NA in the style of GSL, on at a reasonable time and with the option for local players to attempt to compete in that event. People do not care about who plays as much as they want the option for players to play in their region, rather than fly to Korea. We don’t care were people are from, but we want an open league like the GSL that allows for players to compete locally. After that, the community really doesn’t care who shows up to qualify. While I understand your POV. Unfortunately the majority of critism is directed at the potential further Korean dominance. Spoon feeding foreign players into the finals is not going to help in the long run, throwing them in the deep end and telling them, train harder until you can keep up us how you do it. Most of the players are adults and they need to treated like adults. And as an adult, you realise the results you obtain have a direct correlation to the effort you put in. The problem is, that in NA at least, there is no way for these players to ever get to the same skill level. There is no real local tournaments outside of the really small ones, and the superstar ones (MLG/Red Bull LANs) that any new pro (NA, EU, or KR) will get destroyed by the likes of Life/Flash/"insert big name here", and that's if they even get invited. What a lot of us want is a respectable league (I'm looking at you NASL) that limits the players to just NA so that we can invest our time in lesser known players and watch them get better. This can only really happen if they have attainable goals, and 'beat GSL code S superstars' is not an attainable goal for really any new player trying his hands at going pro.
That is definitely a problem, but it doesn't explain the huge gap between Koreansand established foreign progamers. In Brood War people said it was because of the big sponsored pro teams, but money is not the reason anymore. I agree with the person you quoted, pretending the gap doesn't exist doesn't help the scene long term, it just gives some more money to foreigners.
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On April 04 2013 00:07 Swisslink wrote:
I don't really get it (And I haven't read all the 100 pages, shame on me ) :o
The players have to choose in which region they want to play AND GSL/MLG are the WCS for each region - therefore we will no longer see any foreigners in GSL and no Koreans in MLG, or better: a player can't play at MLG AND in GSL the same year?
Or can they participate but the spots will just be given to the ones which decided to play in that specific region?
Can someone please add to the OP that International Events are not the same/exclusive to WCS Regions, and that Koreans can come to participate? This confusion is literally taking up half the posts in the thread and its very frustrating to have the same incorrect information being thrown out every other post.
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On April 03 2013 23:41 NightOfTheDead wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2013 23:31 Proseat wrote:On April 03 2013 23:29 NightOfTheDead wrote:On April 03 2013 23:24 Proseat wrote:On April 03 2013 23:19 sitromit wrote:On April 03 2013 23:07 Proseat wrote:On April 03 2013 23:01 DiMano wrote:On April 03 2013 22:58 Qikz wrote:On April 03 2013 22:55 DiMano wrote:
GSL and OSL is the same tournament with same players and top 8 Code S GSL players will be seeded in OSL? If yes it is stupid as then there is no difference at all. They're different tournaments, they both just feed into the same tournament. See for example a school system. You have 2 primary schools (6-11) which then feed into the same senior school (11-17) which doesn't mean they're the same schools they come from, just that they end up in the same place. Well my question is will all players start from Code B to qualify for OSL or not? It was mentioned (on Twitter I believe) that OnGameNet will hold a special qualifier to fill up the Ro32. Fill up because I still think that GSL and OSL will be interconnected because they're both basically the same tournament called WCS Korea. No, OSL is just another GSL season with a different name, produced by OGN basically. There is no separate qualifier. There's only 1 Code A and Code S for both tournaments. Whichever players finish top 8 in this season of GSL will be in OSL's Code S or Premier League with the new name Blizzard gave it. The rest will come from this season's Code A, just like it does from one season of GSL to the next. The same thing will happen from OSL to the next season of GSL. Basically, OSL = what GSL Season 3 would have been, produced by OGN, GSL Season 3 = what GSL Season 4 would have been. That's what I was assuming as well (see my earlier posts in here). But then there was this in the gamespot.com article: The tournament structure has been modeled off of GSL's Code S, Code A, and Code B system and is called Premier, Challenger, and Qualifier. This structure will run for all partners including MLG and ESL. The Challenger events will run slightly different in North America and Europe due to logistics in travel. Players will be able to move up and down within their own region as players do in GSL. Only the OSL will have differences, where there will be an additional Round of 32 added on played in a best of one format. So they say that Code A aka Challenger league will be played online in NA and EU. What about premier aka Code S in NA and EU? Is it also online? If not how will players be playing it daily when they are all over inland Europe/America? Apparently, Ro16 onwards will be offline in all regions. So WCS America at the MLG studios in New York / USA, WCS Europe at the ESL studios in Cologne / Germany. From the same article: All matches in Korea will be played in studio through GomTV's StarLeague or OnGameNet's StarLeague, while North America and Europe will play Online until the top 16 players. Those top 16 players will compete in a studio environment to determine the best five players in each region. So there are 2 things to add then. Ro16 and onward offline in NA/EU it seems to be played in a succession of few days aka weekend then. I cant imagine any other options. Also, up to Ro16 online introduces possibilities of cheating. Surely, WCS KR will still be top quality in this regard and also the most difficult then. A lot of Koreans will try luck NA, EU, that's very very likely. @Proseat thnx for explanations, appreciated.
I wouldn't count on the Ro16 onwards being on a single weekend, the ESL has a 24/7 studio available in Cologne for Europe and it seems like MLG has a similar thing in New York. I mean it's the most likely scenario, but if they could actually manage to spread it out over multiple weeks and build up hype towards specific matches and have players be able to train against specific strategies and against specific opponents it would be absolutely awesome.
If there is any way to make that happen logistically (in terms of travel, where the players stay etc.) that would be absolutely amazing, I want to see tournaments like this in NA and EU. I think matches where players have actually time to prepare specifically for the opponent are much more tense and fun to watch. And I think it's also a reason why the Koreans improve so fast, I think this way of practicing towards matches is a very good way to practice many things.
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opterown
Australia54783 Posts
On April 04 2013 00:10 blackone wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2013 00:06 GattAttack wrote:On April 03 2013 23:58 Incomplet wrote:On April 03 2013 23:49 Plansix wrote:On April 03 2013 23:40 Incomplet wrote:On April 03 2013 23:33 opterown wrote:On April 03 2013 23:30 Incomplet wrote:On April 03 2013 23:26 Doodsmack wrote:On April 03 2013 23:17 Incomplet wrote:
I've never quite understood the phobia people have of Korean dominance.
Because you cant relate to the person? Get to know them! Read their interviews, check out their liquidpedias, and go watch the bloody GSL, I guarantee you that this will the best well spent money you have ever spent!
Or is it because of the Koreans have no personality stereotype? 5 mins of searching through google or TL will prove yourself wrong. It's not hard to find a funny GIF of a Korean doing silly celebrations which no foreigners have never dared do in the public eye.
Or is it mindless patriotism for their country folks? C'mon this is a computer game, are you really liking a certain player because he merely from the same country as you? Who cares about that, don't let patriotism / racism cloud your judgement of what truly entertaining and skilllful sc2 games are.
Koreans already dominate the scene as it is, in the worse case scenario, nothing will change and the dominance will continue. But maybe, just MAYBE, this could help give that motivational push to drive the foreign players to work harder. At the very least, rather than giving in to your reflex action to automatically dismiss all drastic changes in defence, just let it play out for a bit before passing judgement. Lol @ bringing the racism word into discussions about people rooting for their own country rather than Koreans. It's called being a fan, you choose your favorite, usually based on proximity, and root for them rather than rooting for whoever has the most skill from month to month. It's only natural to have pride about where you're from, and its just unintelligent to use the word racism here. Proud losers. In sc2, it would make more sense to barrack for someone who impresses you with their play style or personality. Not what country they are bloody from. Despicable. I think it's perfectly fair to root for your own country's players, especially if you're a fairly casual viewer. kind of like in the olympics. in general, you root for your country, not for the personalities of individual athletes etc This is not the Olympics though. Of course I understand what I say will not change the fact people will mindlessly barrack for their own country no matter the sport. But I still find it disgusting that the mindless sheep will always just follow what is familiar to them with no sense of autonomy what so ever to make a rational decision on what is truly important in the characteristics of each player. You are over generalizing the scene and the reasons why people want local leagues and tournaments in an effort to make your argument of racism. People don’t care about the race of the player, because there are Asian players in NA that we cheer for(Suppy). People want a league for NA in the style of GSL, on at a reasonable time and with the option for local players to attempt to compete in that event. People do not care about who plays as much as they want the option for players to play in their region, rather than fly to Korea. We don’t care were people are from, but we want an open league like the GSL that allows for players to compete locally. After that, the community really doesn’t care who shows up to qualify. While I understand your POV. Unfortunately the majority of critism is directed at the potential further Korean dominance. Spoon feeding foreign players into the finals is not going to help in the long run, throwing them in the deep end and telling them, train harder until you can keep up us how you do it. Most of the players are adults and they need to treated like adults. And as an adult, you realise the results you obtain have a direct correlation to the effort you put in. The problem is, that in NA at least, there is no way for these players to ever get to the same skill level. There is no real local tournaments outside of the really small ones, and the superstar ones (MLG/Red Bull LANs) that any new pro (NA, EU, or KR) will get destroyed by the likes of Life/Flash/"insert big name here", and that's if they even get invited. What a lot of us want is a respectable league (I'm looking at you NASL) that limits the players to just NA so that we can invest our time in lesser known players and watch them get better. This can only really happen if they have attainable goals, and 'beat GSL code S superstars' is not an attainable goal for really any new player trying his hands at going pro. That is definitely a problem, but it doesn't explain the huge gap between Koreansand established foreign progamers. In Brood War people said it was because of the big sponsored pro teams, but money is not the reason anymore. I agree with the person you quoted, pretending the gap doesn't exist doesn't help the scene long term, it just gives some more money to foreigners.
that gap is mainly due to infrastructure. koreans have a well-established gaming community from BW, while foreigners don't have that level of structure and social acceptance as in korea. it's just snowballed over time
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On April 03 2013 23:17 Incomplet wrote:
I've never quite understood the phobia people have of Korean dominance.
Because you cant relate to the person? Get to know them! Read their interviews, check out their liquidpedias, and go watch the bloody GSL, I guarantee you that this will the best well spent money you have ever spent!
Or is it because of the Koreans have no personality stereotype? 5 mins of searching through google or TL will prove yourself wrong. It's not hard to find a funny GIF of a Korean doing silly celebrations which no foreigners have never dared do in the public eye.
Or is it mindless patriotism for their country folks? C'mon this is a computer game, are you really liking a certain player because he merely from the same country as you? Who cares about that, don't let patriotism / racism cloud your judgement of what truly entertaining and skilllful sc2 games are.
Koreans already dominate the scene as it is, in the worse case scenario, nothing will change and the dominance will continue. But maybe, just MAYBE, this could help give that motivational push to drive the foreign players to work harder. At the very least, rather than giving in to your reflex action to automatically dismiss all drastic changes in defence, just let it play out for a bit before passing judgement.
In general I don't care about Korean dominance either, but if looking at the big picture, I'd say that it would be ideal if the competition were even or at least more even.
If the SC2 scene is to grow, we need it to be played everywhere in the world, and at a competitive level at that. If it gets broodwar-like and the Korean scene remains an isolated island of skill in an ocean of mediocrity and indifference towards the game (apart from the existing hardcore fans and players), you won't get as many new players into it, you won't get as many spectators into it, there won't be as much money to sustain the game as an E-sport outside of Blizzard's involvement and sponsors and tournaments won't care as much about it.
Even if you just want to maintain the level where it's at now and the viewer numbers you have atm, you need to continuously step up your game on the production side because if you have seen something once or twice you get used to it and it becomes either stale or something you don't notice anymore in a positive way so the broadcaster needs something new to catch your interest. You need growth in order to keep that viable, even if it's small, and I think you need foreigners to get newcomers interested. The Korean leagues are the pinnacle of competition and Korean players are the epitome of skill, but I'm not sure that they work as stepping stones into watching ESPORTS for everyone.
I wouldn't worry about the hardcore fans, more about the people who one day might become ones if you manage to hook them.
Despite all the things you said, I think it's easier to get into the foreign scene as a beginner. Skill can be difficult to recognize as a beginner and tuning into the GSL for a month, watching 80 matches and waiting for MC to make a ceremony once is not as easy as tuning into a MLG WCS NA event once, seeing IdrA win 2-1 and hearing him say "Yes, I won, but he's such a scrub, I can't believe I dropped a map to him" with casters laughing about him ragequitting the second map. You can get a lot closer to the players, at least you feel that way if you're starting.
The overwhelming majority of people in the world wouldn't be nearly as interested in professional football much if the sport only consisted of let's say Spanish teams traveling around the world playing showmatches and stomping the most prestigious non-Spanish clubs in big tournaments and the local opposition in the local tournaments whenever they meet.
People want upsets, people want to root for the underdogs. People want close and exciting matches wherever they tune in. Too much success produces unhappiness with the status quo in part of the population.
Barcelona were immensely successful in the past couple of years and I think they're mostly a joy to watch and it seems like the perfect way to play football to me at times.
On the other hand, Barca have a lot of haters and there are many people who say they are excruciatingly boring. They were and are winning, they're doing it in style, but a lot of people hate that they are so successful and don't watch when it's likely that they'll dominate their opponents. They rather only tune in hoping to see them lose.
This isn't what I do in football and this isn't what I do in StarCraft 2, but it's real and it's somewhat understandable.
Last MLG was a great tournament, but it was only really close starting from the Ro8. If foreigners were good enough, the tournament could be great from the start and everyone would win.
Part of what you refer to seems to be other people's sheer disappointment in foreigner results while projecting the blame onto Koreans and another part is probably sheer ignorance by some.
But no matter how you put it, foreigners getting better would help the scene immensely in the long term. Even Korean players have said that it is boring when a Korean wins all the time and foreigners don't have a realistic chance to compete. I don't know if that's pandering to part of the foreign audience or an experience they have made themselves, but some have said it.
There has to be a solid ecosystem to keep playing the game for money somewhat viable and you need to at least give up&coming players a glimmer of hope to reach attainable goals if you start without the headstart of having been a BW/SC2beta/WoL pro with connections to bigger teams.
If you deprive the players in the gap between top tier pro and mid-master league from hope of getting closer to the first option, foreigners won't improve, their skill will decrease because the practice environment will get even worse and almost exclusively existing pros will manage to support their playing career based on things they achieved in the past.
If you put the current scene in a vacuum to preserve the status quo and hope the players will improve eventually, the scene will die. Instead you need to give the scene time and a lot of sun, water and fertile soil at the grass-roots level to preserve the chance of the young saplings shooting up and growing taller than the old withered and bent trees who have stood there for a long time.
Call that affirmative action if you feel that way but I think it's important if it achieves the desired results in the end.
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On April 04 2013 00:07 Swisslink wrote:
I don't really get it (And I haven't read all the 100 pages, shame on me ) :o
The players have to choose in which region they want to play AND GSL/MLG are the WCS for each region - therefore we will no longer see any foreigners in GSL and no Koreans in MLG, or better: a player can't play at MLG AND in GSL the same year?
Or can they participate but the spots will just be given to the ones which decided to play in that specific region?
The MLG championships are separate from the new WCS America to be produced by Major League Gaming as an additional event, so nothing changes for the former there in terms of players from other regions attending (same for ESL / IEM).
Korea is a special case where GSL/OSL will be WCS Korea themselves. And thus foreigners can only compete in these Korean leagues if they stick with the Korean leg of WCS for an entire year (and then cannot compete in WCS Europe or WCS America, but still can go to non-WCS tournaments).
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United Kingdom31935 Posts
It seems cool if this works out it could be amazing 
Could finally see who is the best EU and NA players
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On April 03 2013 23:59 dacimvrl wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2013 23:52 opterown wrote:On April 03 2013 23:40 Incomplet wrote:On April 03 2013 23:33 opterown wrote:On April 03 2013 23:30 Incomplet wrote:On April 03 2013 23:26 Doodsmack wrote:On April 03 2013 23:17 Incomplet wrote:
I've never quite understood the phobia people have of Korean dominance.
Because you cant relate to the person? Get to know them! Read their interviews, check out their liquidpedias, and go watch the bloody GSL, I guarantee you that this will the best well spent money you have ever spent!
Or is it because of the Koreans have no personality stereotype? 5 mins of searching through google or TL will prove yourself wrong. It's not hard to find a funny GIF of a Korean doing silly celebrations which no foreigners have never dared do in the public eye.
Or is it mindless patriotism for their country folks? C'mon this is a computer game, are you really liking a certain player because he merely from the same country as you? Who cares about that, don't let patriotism / racism cloud your judgement of what truly entertaining and skilllful sc2 games are.
Koreans already dominate the scene as it is, in the worse case scenario, nothing will change and the dominance will continue. But maybe, just MAYBE, this could help give that motivational push to drive the foreign players to work harder. At the very least, rather than giving in to your reflex action to automatically dismiss all drastic changes in defence, just let it play out for a bit before passing judgement. Lol @ bringing the racism word into discussions about people rooting for their own country rather than Koreans. It's called being a fan, you choose your favorite, usually based on proximity, and root for them rather than rooting for whoever has the most skill from month to month. It's only natural to have pride about where you're from, and its just unintelligent to use the word racism here. Proud losers. In sc2, it would make more sense to barrack for someone who impresses you with their play style or personality. Not what country they are bloody from. Despicable. I think it's perfectly fair to root for your own country's players, especially if you're a fairly casual viewer. kind of like in the olympics. in general, you root for your country, not for the personalities of individual athletes etc This is not the Olympics though. Of course I understand what I say will not change the fact people will mindlessly barrack for their own country no matter the sport. But I still find it disgusting that the mindless sheep will always just follow what is familiar to them with no sense of autonomy what so ever to make a rational decision on what is truly important in the characteristics of each player. I think it definitely helps with the storyline e.g. WCS EU had players from pretty much every EU country there and it would be fun seeing all the dutch cheer for grubby, the germans for socke, etc. i don't think it's bad to have nationalism, as it gets the fans invested in players, which is a good thing for the scene. storyline................like wrestling? /lol Why do you even enjoy watching starcraft? During a super high level match like Life vs Flash at the last MLG, does anyone actually go hey - they are from korea, let's not cheer for them or w/e. No. And the whole nationalism bs is nothing short of retarded. What if it's an European born Korean that's really good? I already know your answer, see, it's simply mindless! So, essentially, it all boils down to where the players' parents had sex and gave birth to them. Now, why would any sane person care where the players' parents chose to have sex? It has absolutely nothing to do with starcraft, at all. Support the players, don't mindless support where the player is from.
With that sort of mentality, imagine the Football World Cup, only Brazil and Spain would have supporters lol. The argument is stupid. It's obvious that a French player will root for Stephano, they've been seeing him develop since he was a teen playing WarCraft III, and he's been competing in French tournaments for years before he became an international champion. They might even live in the same city as him. If you're from Boston, what's the probability that you're a Red Sox fan? It's not only normal, it's natural to be a fan of your compatriots over anything else. My country has very little talent in sports (its tiny!); I like watching Barcelona and Juventus play, but who do you think I will root for if Barcelona play my town's team, even if its in the third division of the local league lol?
I've been a Fnatic fan since I saw a documentary about them back in 2008. I supported their Counter-Strike team, their Call of Duty team, their Warcraft III team, and their Quake players, so yes, now I like SaSe and Swedish players in general because of that. Should I not support them because they are not as good as Life or Flash? I love seeing Life and Flash, but I'd rather see SaSe winning a tournament. It's not stupid, everyone has their preferences.
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On April 04 2013 00:14 Proseat wrote:
Korea is a special case where GSL/OSL will be WCS Korea themselves. And thus foreigners can only compete in these Korean leagues if they stick with the Korean leg of WCS for an entire year (and then cannot compete in WCS Europe or WCS America, but still can go to non-WCS tournaments).
Will GSL and OSL do additional leagues or did they just cut half of their content?
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Koreans can go to all the old events such as MLG championship, Dreamhack, NASL, ESL championship, HomeStory Cup, etc.
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On April 04 2013 00:14 Proseat wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2013 00:07 Swisslink wrote:
I don't really get it (And I haven't read all the 100 pages, shame on me ) :o
The players have to choose in which region they want to play AND GSL/MLG are the WCS for each region - therefore we will no longer see any foreigners in GSL and no Koreans in MLG, or better: a player can't play at MLG AND in GSL the same year?
Or can they participate but the spots will just be given to the ones which decided to play in that specific region? The MLG championships are separate from the new WCS America to be produced by Major League Gaming as an additional event, so nothing changes for the former there in terms of players from other regions attending (same for ESL / IEM). Korea is a special case where GSL/OSL will be WCS Korea themselves. And thus foreigners can only compete in these Korean leagues if they stick with the Korean leg of WCS for an entire year (and then cannot compete in WCS Europe or WCS America, but still can go to non-WCS tournaments).
Bullshit! MLG has do do 3 NA WCSs and probably one Season Final this year. That does not leave alot of room for Non-WCS Events. Same with IEM.
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opterown
Australia54783 Posts
On April 04 2013 00:17 blackone wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2013 00:14 Proseat wrote:
Korea is a special case where GSL/OSL will be WCS Korea themselves. And thus foreigners can only compete in these Korean leagues if they stick with the Korean leg of WCS for an entire year (and then cannot compete in WCS Europe or WCS America, but still can go to non-WCS tournaments). Will GSL and OSL do additional leagues or did they just cut half of their content?
the impression i get is that it's being cut ;;
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On April 04 2013 00:17 mikkmagro wrote:
With that sort of mentality, imagine the Football World Cup, only Brazil and Spain would have supporters lol. The argument is stupid. It's obvious that a French player will root for Stephano, they've been seeing him develop since he was a teen playing WarCraft III, and he's been competing in French tournaments for years before he became an international champion. They might even live in the same city as him. If you're from Boston, what's the probability that you're a Red Sox fan? It's not only normal, it's natural to be a fan of your compatriots over anything else. My country has very little talent in sports (its tiny!); I like watching Barcelona and Juventus play, but who do you think I will root for if Barcelona play my town's team, even if its in the third division of the local league lol?
You can't compare individual players to regional or national teams. I support my home town football club, but that doesn't mean I only root for Spanish tennis players or Boxers or whatnot.
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On April 04 2013 00:06 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2013 23:58 Incomplet wrote:On April 03 2013 23:49 Plansix wrote:On April 03 2013 23:40 Incomplet wrote:On April 03 2013 23:33 opterown wrote:On April 03 2013 23:30 Incomplet wrote:On April 03 2013 23:26 Doodsmack wrote:On April 03 2013 23:17 Incomplet wrote:
I've never quite understood the phobia people have of Korean dominance.
Because you cant relate to the person? Get to know them! Read their interviews, check out their liquidpedias, and go watch the bloody GSL, I guarantee you that this will the best well spent money you have ever spent!
Or is it because of the Koreans have no personality stereotype? 5 mins of searching through google or TL will prove yourself wrong. It's not hard to find a funny GIF of a Korean doing silly celebrations which no foreigners have never dared do in the public eye.
Or is it mindless patriotism for their country folks? C'mon this is a computer game, are you really liking a certain player because he merely from the same country as you? Who cares about that, don't let patriotism / racism cloud your judgement of what truly entertaining and skilllful sc2 games are.
Koreans already dominate the scene as it is, in the worse case scenario, nothing will change and the dominance will continue. But maybe, just MAYBE, this could help give that motivational push to drive the foreign players to work harder. At the very least, rather than giving in to your reflex action to automatically dismiss all drastic changes in defence, just let it play out for a bit before passing judgement. Lol @ bringing the racism word into discussions about people rooting for their own country rather than Koreans. It's called being a fan, you choose your favorite, usually based on proximity, and root for them rather than rooting for whoever has the most skill from month to month. It's only natural to have pride about where you're from, and its just unintelligent to use the word racism here. Proud losers. In sc2, it would make more sense to barrack for someone who impresses you with their play style or personality. Not what country they are bloody from. Despicable. I think it's perfectly fair to root for your own country's players, especially if you're a fairly casual viewer. kind of like in the olympics. in general, you root for your country, not for the personalities of individual athletes etc This is not the Olympics though. Of course I understand what I say will not change the fact people will mindlessly barrack for their own country no matter the sport. But I still find it disgusting that the mindless sheep will always just follow what is familiar to them with no sense of autonomy what so ever to make a rational decision on what is truly important in the characteristics of each player. You are over generalizing the scene and the reasons why people want local leagues and tournaments in an effort to make your argument of racism. People don’t care about the race of the player, because there are Asian players in NA that we cheer for(Suppy). People want a league for NA in the style of GSL, on at a reasonable time and with the option for local players to attempt to compete in that event. People do not care about who plays as much as they want the option for players to play in their region, rather than fly to Korea. We don’t care were people are from, but we want an open league like the GSL that allows for players to compete locally. After that, the community really doesn’t care who shows up to qualify. While I understand your POV. Unfortunately the majority of critism is directed at the potential further Korean dominance. Spoon feeding foreign players into the finals is not going to help in the long run, throwing them in the deep end and telling them, train harder until you can keep up us how you do it. Most of the players are adults and they need to treated like adults. And as an adult, you realise the results you obtain have a direct correlation to the effort you put in. No, demanding that NA players fly to Korea to train for a year just to become good enough to win a single NA event will just kill the NA scene. There is no reason for a new player to come into the scene if they need to get signed to a team with the ability to send him to Korea for a year or more. And that new player will never get signed to a team, because the chances of them winning a major event against top Korean are so low its not worth trying. There is no entry level, so there is no growth. Having one dominant region does nothing for the growth of the game for scene and there is no reason to support a region that is already winning and viable. It will only stifle growth and prevent new people from coming to the scene. Blizzard has not reason to do that, as they want the game to be successful everywhere.
I think you have gravely mistaken my point. This new WCS will give more incentive for foreigners to stay in the US or EU to compete for this new source of income. The fact that there should be an influx of Code A/B Koreans will up the skill bar and drive them to work harder within their own respective country.
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On April 04 2013 00:18 opterown wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2013 00:17 blackone wrote:On April 04 2013 00:14 Proseat wrote:
Korea is a special case where GSL/OSL will be WCS Korea themselves. And thus foreigners can only compete in these Korean leagues if they stick with the Korean leg of WCS for an entire year (and then cannot compete in WCS Europe or WCS America, but still can go to non-WCS tournaments). Will GSL and OSL do additional leagues or did they just cut half of their content? the impression i get is that it's being cut ;;
That would suck pretty hard. I hope I can at least get my money back.
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opterown
Australia54783 Posts
On April 04 2013 00:19 blackone wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2013 00:17 mikkmagro wrote:
With that sort of mentality, imagine the Football World Cup, only Brazil and Spain would have supporters lol. The argument is stupid. It's obvious that a French player will root for Stephano, they've been seeing him develop since he was a teen playing WarCraft III, and he's been competing in French tournaments for years before he became an international champion. They might even live in the same city as him. If you're from Boston, what's the probability that you're a Red Sox fan? It's not only normal, it's natural to be a fan of your compatriots over anything else. My country has very little talent in sports (its tiny!); I like watching Barcelona and Juventus play, but who do you think I will root for if Barcelona play my town's team, even if its in the third division of the local league lol?
You can't compare individual players to regional or national teams. I support my home town football club, but that doesn't mean I only root for Spanish tennis players or Boxers or whatnot.
yeah, but let's say you watch a basketball game (or some sport you're not totally familiar with) and it's spain vs. mexico or something. you'd probably cheer for spain to win, no? that's more the mentality of the casual viewer tuning into an MLG who doesn't know too much about the scene, and those are the type of people we want to get more invested into the scene. giving them a focus to cheer on is great!
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On April 04 2013 00:18 Hadley88 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2013 00:14 Proseat wrote:On April 04 2013 00:07 Swisslink wrote:
I don't really get it (And I haven't read all the 100 pages, shame on me ) :o
The players have to choose in which region they want to play AND GSL/MLG are the WCS for each region - therefore we will no longer see any foreigners in GSL and no Koreans in MLG, or better: a player can't play at MLG AND in GSL the same year?
Or can they participate but the spots will just be given to the ones which decided to play in that specific region? The MLG championships are separate from the new WCS America to be produced by Major League Gaming as an additional event, so nothing changes for the former there in terms of players from other regions attending (same for ESL / IEM). Korea is a special case where GSL/OSL will be WCS Korea themselves. And thus foreigners can only compete in these Korean leagues if they stick with the Korean leg of WCS for an entire year (and then cannot compete in WCS Europe or WCS America, but still can go to non-WCS tournaments). Bullshit! MLG has do do 3 NA WCSs and probably one Season Final this year. That does not leave alot of room for Non-WCS Events. Same with IEM.
The MLGs tht we know and love are the non-WCS events. The only thing we know about the American WCS event is that the MLG organization is hosting them.
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EPT
