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Too bad, I really wanted to see a foreigner in code S again.
I guess this confirms Naniwa as the best foreigner. At least after the Z patch-hammer.
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On March 28 2013 01:57 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:Show nested quote +On March 28 2013 01:51 Plansix wrote:On March 28 2013 01:46 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:On March 28 2013 01:39 Plansix wrote:On March 28 2013 01:32 sitromit wrote:On March 28 2013 01:22 Noobity wrote:
I've always thought of the GSL, Proleague, MLG, Dreamhack, etc. as different leagues in the same sport, kinda like the different leagues in the NFL, or MLB. They simply have different ways to go about the same thing. GSL has a lot of mental preparation attached to it because the matches are so far apart and for the most part you know who you're facing long in advance. Proleague has a format where players will be able to focus on maps specifically and matchups they can be used as snipers in. Foreign tournaments require you to be awesome at every matchup at any given time, and to be able to play marathon gaming sessions. To say that any one of those additional skills necessary are less difficult than any of the others is ignorant.
My point is simply that it's disappointing to hear all the hate Stephano's getting for leaving Korea when the tournaments he was there for focused on a play style that he might not be as capable of adapting to. We have this idea that certain foreigners shouldn't have beaten certain koreans, or aren't as good as certain koreans, when the korean players are playing in foreign tournaments. It's simply that there are different styles and the players involved have different strengths and weaknesses not only in the play of the actual game, but also the preparation, and how they handle the individual tournament themselves.
The only things we can say about Stephano leaving Korea are what we've heard first hand. Him leaving is not foreigner laziness, it's him deciding to leave. Focusing on international tournaments doesn't make him a worse player than Koreans, it means that's what he's most comfortable with and where he has the best opportunity to make a living. He got 3-0'ed at MLG and IEM too. It has nothing to do with tournament format. Most of his big wins were in tournaments with much weaker competition compared to the GSL or the other tournaments he didn't do well in. Well to be fair, he go 3-0ed by a Kespa player, Last, in one of the most stacked brackets I have ever seen. Last then went 2-3 vs Life, who won MLG. He didn't lose to some scrub, but a guy who almost beat the winner of the entire event. This is the kind of logic that's so funny about Stephano fans (it also applies for Nerchio, Naniwa and any other of the current hyped foreigners too). We constantly have to suffer this double think of how when they win (or better yet not actually playing vs Koreans at all as this is when their hype is biggest) they're Code S quality, amongst the absolute best in the world and can beat anyone and take down any tournament including Code S. When they lose however it's okay because they lost to good player and there's no shame in that apparently. The foreigner fanboy however never makes the connection that beating top players like Last, MVP, Yoda, Life and Flash is what makes you a top player and consistently losing to these level of players (like Stephano has for months and months now) means you're not a top player. Stephano got absolutely smashed at IEM and MLG, no if's no but's he was destroyed by better players. Well I can say he did shitty and should have done better. That it is unacceptable to get beaten 3-0 and that is total crap. But you see, I am a Red Sox fan, so I know what slumps are. Unlike many fans in the SC2 scene, who are like weather vains and just band wagon to the next winning Korean player and call him a god of the game until he loses and then its on to the next one. I would say that one is not much better than the other. What's wrong with that? It's basically how Sc2 has worked at the pro level since it's inception. Beta/Late 2010 - Fruitdealer/Tester era. Early - Mid 2011 - Mvp/MC/Nestea era Late 2011 - Mvp/MMA/DRG era Early - Mid 2012 - MKP/DRG era Mid - Late 2012 - Life/Parting/Rain/Leenock/Patch Zerg era Are you denying that players in Sc2 tend to be at the top for about 6 months maximum and then fall off still able to win tournament but never consistently stringing together GSL/MLG wins like Mvp, DRG and Life were able to do at their peaks?
Well in the Boston area, we have words for people like that, but I won't use it on TL. But it's called being a fair weather fan. They cheer when their team is winning, but disappear when they aren't. Real fan cheer when the team is playing. I still cheer for MC and willl until he quits. Same with MKP and the members of EG. I am not a fair weather fan, I even cheer when they lose.
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Stephano doesn't deserve to be in code S anyway. Good riddance, I won't miss routing against him in the least.
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I guess he left because he wasnt satisfied with the social aspect of living in South Korea. I can imagine it must be pretty tough culture shock to come from France to Korea.
U fully understand his decision especially if you keep in mind what he said about their head coach over there.
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On March 28 2013 02:03 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On March 28 2013 01:57 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:On March 28 2013 01:51 Plansix wrote:On March 28 2013 01:46 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:On March 28 2013 01:39 Plansix wrote:On March 28 2013 01:32 sitromit wrote:On March 28 2013 01:22 Noobity wrote:
I've always thought of the GSL, Proleague, MLG, Dreamhack, etc. as different leagues in the same sport, kinda like the different leagues in the NFL, or MLB. They simply have different ways to go about the same thing. GSL has a lot of mental preparation attached to it because the matches are so far apart and for the most part you know who you're facing long in advance. Proleague has a format where players will be able to focus on maps specifically and matchups they can be used as snipers in. Foreign tournaments require you to be awesome at every matchup at any given time, and to be able to play marathon gaming sessions. To say that any one of those additional skills necessary are less difficult than any of the others is ignorant.
My point is simply that it's disappointing to hear all the hate Stephano's getting for leaving Korea when the tournaments he was there for focused on a play style that he might not be as capable of adapting to. We have this idea that certain foreigners shouldn't have beaten certain koreans, or aren't as good as certain koreans, when the korean players are playing in foreign tournaments. It's simply that there are different styles and the players involved have different strengths and weaknesses not only in the play of the actual game, but also the preparation, and how they handle the individual tournament themselves.
The only things we can say about Stephano leaving Korea are what we've heard first hand. Him leaving is not foreigner laziness, it's him deciding to leave. Focusing on international tournaments doesn't make him a worse player than Koreans, it means that's what he's most comfortable with and where he has the best opportunity to make a living. He got 3-0'ed at MLG and IEM too. It has nothing to do with tournament format. Most of his big wins were in tournaments with much weaker competition compared to the GSL or the other tournaments he didn't do well in. Well to be fair, he go 3-0ed by a Kespa player, Last, in one of the most stacked brackets I have ever seen. Last then went 2-3 vs Life, who won MLG. He didn't lose to some scrub, but a guy who almost beat the winner of the entire event. This is the kind of logic that's so funny about Stephano fans (it also applies for Nerchio, Naniwa and any other of the current hyped foreigners too). We constantly have to suffer this double think of how when they win (or better yet not actually playing vs Koreans at all as this is when their hype is biggest) they're Code S quality, amongst the absolute best in the world and can beat anyone and take down any tournament including Code S. When they lose however it's okay because they lost to good player and there's no shame in that apparently. The foreigner fanboy however never makes the connection that beating top players like Last, MVP, Yoda, Life and Flash is what makes you a top player and consistently losing to these level of players (like Stephano has for months and months now) means you're not a top player. Stephano got absolutely smashed at IEM and MLG, no if's no but's he was destroyed by better players. Well I can say he did shitty and should have done better. That it is unacceptable to get beaten 3-0 and that is total crap. But you see, I am a Red Sox fan, so I know what slumps are. Unlike many fans in the SC2 scene, who are like weather vains and just band wagon to the next winning Korean player and call him a god of the game until he loses and then its on to the next one. I would say that one is not much better than the other. What's wrong with that? It's basically how Sc2 has worked at the pro level since it's inception. Beta/Late 2010 - Fruitdealer/Tester era. Early - Mid 2011 - Mvp/MC/Nestea era Late 2011 - Mvp/MMA/DRG era Early - Mid 2012 - MKP/DRG era Mid - Late 2012 - Life/Parting/Rain/Leenock/Patch Zerg era Are you denying that players in Sc2 tend to be at the top for about 6 months maximum and then fall off still able to win tournament but never consistently stringing together GSL/MLG wins like Mvp, DRG and Life were able to do at their peaks? Well in the Boston area, we have words for people like that, but I won't use it on TL. But it's called being a fair weather fan. They cheer when their team is winning, but disappear when they aren't. Real fan cheer when the team is playing. I still cheer for MC and willl until he quits. Same with MKP and the members of EG. I am not a fair weather fan, I even cheer when they lose.
Most Sc2 fans are a fan of the game more than players so we just like whoever has cool play and shows good games.
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On March 28 2013 02:02 Belha wrote:
Too bad, I really wanted to see a foreigner in code S again.
I guess this confirms Naniwa as the best foreigner. At least after the Z patch-hammer.
What has Naniwa done in HOTS exactly?
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On March 28 2013 02:02 Belha wrote:
Too bad, I really wanted to see a foreigner in code S again.
I guess this confirms Naniwa as the best foreigner. At least after the Z patch-hammer.
Euh ? where did you get this logic from ? Did i miss Naniwa killing koreans left and right ?
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On March 28 2013 02:02 Belha wrote:
Too bad, I really wanted to see a foreigner in code S again.
I guess this confirms Naniwa as the best foreigner. At least after the Z patch-hammer.
As a Naniwa fan I can't make sense of that logic. He may or may not be the best foreigner but Stephano leaving Korea have nothing to do with that.
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I agree completely with the above poster, love of the game surpasses any love for the players, they come, they go, but the game will live forever!
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On March 28 2013 02:09 Lysanias wrote:Show nested quote +On March 28 2013 02:02 Belha wrote:
Too bad, I really wanted to see a foreigner in code S again.
I guess this confirms Naniwa as the best foreigner. At least after the Z patch-hammer.
Euh ? where did you get this logic from ? Did i miss Naniwa killing koreans left and right ?
No foreigner have been killing Korean's left and right in Hots. Calling anyone the best foreigner at this point is a pure crap shoot based on past performances. Pointless.
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Everyone has to choose how one wants to live ones life. I am not against criticizing Stephano's decisions. I am however against any attempt to denigrate his work or person.
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Its understandable especially money wise which always seem to be his biggest motivation. Though he got back into code S I don't personally think he would've got that far but I suppose it was possible
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On March 28 2013 02:09 TheLunatic wrote:
I agree completely with the above poster, love of the game surpasses any love for the players, they come, they go, but the game will live forever!
this is why we need new blood! I honestly think that Stephano is on decline and is going to retire soon if he just keeps losing. There must be some natural talented kid out there that can fill his place and step up as the foreigners hope but I doubt that will happen soon.
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On March 28 2013 02:06 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:Show nested quote +On March 28 2013 02:03 Plansix wrote:On March 28 2013 01:57 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:On March 28 2013 01:51 Plansix wrote:On March 28 2013 01:46 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:On March 28 2013 01:39 Plansix wrote:On March 28 2013 01:32 sitromit wrote:On March 28 2013 01:22 Noobity wrote:
I've always thought of the GSL, Proleague, MLG, Dreamhack, etc. as different leagues in the same sport, kinda like the different leagues in the NFL, or MLB. They simply have different ways to go about the same thing. GSL has a lot of mental preparation attached to it because the matches are so far apart and for the most part you know who you're facing long in advance. Proleague has a format where players will be able to focus on maps specifically and matchups they can be used as snipers in. Foreign tournaments require you to be awesome at every matchup at any given time, and to be able to play marathon gaming sessions. To say that any one of those additional skills necessary are less difficult than any of the others is ignorant.
My point is simply that it's disappointing to hear all the hate Stephano's getting for leaving Korea when the tournaments he was there for focused on a play style that he might not be as capable of adapting to. We have this idea that certain foreigners shouldn't have beaten certain koreans, or aren't as good as certain koreans, when the korean players are playing in foreign tournaments. It's simply that there are different styles and the players involved have different strengths and weaknesses not only in the play of the actual game, but also the preparation, and how they handle the individual tournament themselves.
The only things we can say about Stephano leaving Korea are what we've heard first hand. Him leaving is not foreigner laziness, it's him deciding to leave. Focusing on international tournaments doesn't make him a worse player than Koreans, it means that's what he's most comfortable with and where he has the best opportunity to make a living. He got 3-0'ed at MLG and IEM too. It has nothing to do with tournament format. Most of his big wins were in tournaments with much weaker competition compared to the GSL or the other tournaments he didn't do well in. Well to be fair, he go 3-0ed by a Kespa player, Last, in one of the most stacked brackets I have ever seen. Last then went 2-3 vs Life, who won MLG. He didn't lose to some scrub, but a guy who almost beat the winner of the entire event. This is the kind of logic that's so funny about Stephano fans (it also applies for Nerchio, Naniwa and any other of the current hyped foreigners too). We constantly have to suffer this double think of how when they win (or better yet not actually playing vs Koreans at all as this is when their hype is biggest) they're Code S quality, amongst the absolute best in the world and can beat anyone and take down any tournament including Code S. When they lose however it's okay because they lost to good player and there's no shame in that apparently. The foreigner fanboy however never makes the connection that beating top players like Last, MVP, Yoda, Life and Flash is what makes you a top player and consistently losing to these level of players (like Stephano has for months and months now) means you're not a top player. Stephano got absolutely smashed at IEM and MLG, no if's no but's he was destroyed by better players. Well I can say he did shitty and should have done better. That it is unacceptable to get beaten 3-0 and that is total crap. But you see, I am a Red Sox fan, so I know what slumps are. Unlike many fans in the SC2 scene, who are like weather vains and just band wagon to the next winning Korean player and call him a god of the game until he loses and then its on to the next one. I would say that one is not much better than the other. What's wrong with that? It's basically how Sc2 has worked at the pro level since it's inception. Beta/Late 2010 - Fruitdealer/Tester era. Early - Mid 2011 - Mvp/MC/Nestea era Late 2011 - Mvp/MMA/DRG era Early - Mid 2012 - MKP/DRG era Mid - Late 2012 - Life/Parting/Rain/Leenock/Patch Zerg era Are you denying that players in Sc2 tend to be at the top for about 6 months maximum and then fall off still able to win tournament but never consistently stringing together GSL/MLG wins like Mvp, DRG and Life were able to do at their peaks? Well in the Boston area, we have words for people like that, but I won't use it on TL. But it's called being a fair weather fan. They cheer when their team is winning, but disappear when they aren't. Real fan cheer when the team is playing. I still cheer for MC and willl until he quits. Same with MKP and the members of EG. I am not a fair weather fan, I even cheer when they lose. Most Sc2 fans are a fan of the game more than players so we just like whoever has cool play and shows good games.
That is what a fair weather fan is, they don't care who is playing and just cheer for the winner because it is easy. They like to watch the winner and can’t deal with the disappointment, or the idea that they might have to wait to see their favorite player be awesome. Fans like myself and my father who waited 20 years or (nearly 60 in my fathers case) for the Sox to win a world series have little patience for fair weather fans.
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If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen. I wonder who will get the seed? Rain could use 2 spots.
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Simple solution: Give his spot to someone who wants it.
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On March 28 2013 01:59 Jibba wrote:Show nested quote +On March 28 2013 00:25 sabas123 wrote:On March 28 2013 00:22 DtorR wrote:
Is there more money involved playing on international tournaments? Even though playing in GSL Code S is an honour but I feel that to win it is not worth the effort. The competition in the international level is a little easier than in Korea. code S has more prize money but it is way easier to get money out of international tournements. People keep saying this, but it's short-term thinking that may not be relevant anymore. It may not have even been true when IdrA made the decision to leave, because even then Koreans were beginning to enter foreign tournaments. You're giving up skill ceiling to get "easier" competition, except Koreans, who are still benefiting from the higher skill ceiling that their training provides, are also a part of those competitions now. You'll get a few thousand here or there from smaller tournaments like DH Bucharest or HSC, but all of the major tournaments have gone to Koreans. If you were to calculate the money earned from foreign tournaments by country in 2012-13, 90%+ would probably go to Koreans. So I'm not sure that the payout from going home is really that much better than being a GSL Code S player, since Code S players are in all of the important American and European tournaments.
No, you're quite far off there.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=399993
It's somewhere around 64% for Koreans vs 36% for foreigners and that includes Korean tournaments.
Money earned by foreigners in Korea should be a negligible amount, so foreign tournaments still provide easy money in comparison.
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This is disappointing. Foreigners can't keep up with Koreans and then when they take the steps needed to be at a Korean level (training like Koreans) they say the coach is mean and it is too hard. I really hope this is just to Stephano not having the willpower to follow his coaches rules and not because Blizzard is going to region lock:/
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On March 28 2013 02:18 HappyTimePANDA wrote:
This is disappointing. Foreigners can't keep up with Koreans and then when they take the steps needed to be at a Korean level (training like Koreans) they say the coach is mean and it is too hard. I really hope this is just to Stephano not having the willpower to follow his coaches rules and not because Blizzard is going to region lock:/
Well Koreans are living near their families, in their home country. Participating to GSL is way easier for them than for a foreigner... The foreigner has to make much more sacrifices than koreans to be able to play in GSL.
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On March 28 2013 02:18 dUTtrOACh wrote:
Simple solution: Give his spot to someone who wants it.
*and deserves it*, which makes it a very hard argument to settle... (whether or not these free seeds should even exist in the first place, and then how is someone more prepared for a long term tournament like the GSL by winning marathon tournaments like MLG or Dreamhack).
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EPT
