According to them, Stephano is leaving Korea to take a rest in France and focus on international tournaments.
No official statements from EG, Stephano or Gomtv yet, though.
On March 28 2013 00:29 m0s1n0 wrote: Hey guys,
I am the author of the German article on fragster. Here is a short (got not much time) translation of it:
Stephano did decide to leave Korea to regain energy in Europe (most likely back home in France) and focus on international (non-Korean) tournaments. Due to that fact he will leave Korea and will forfeit his Code S-slot. Moreover it is very likely that he will not play Proleague anymore. A possible reasons I named furthermore (the decision made me very curious because he traveled to IEM WC one day later to play Up&Down) is the training schedule they have in Korea (Stephano was always kind of a player who was not really interested in strict schedules).
Adding some rumors I saw on Reddit some hours ago (not part of the article and NOT confirmed by any evidend source): - Maybe problems with the new Coach of EG-Liquid - Scarlett got offered a Code S-seed but declined (before Stephano forfeit) - Scarlett may take Stephanos slot now
On March 28 2013 01:37 Proseat wrote:
Here is a full translation of the fragster.de article:
Code S and Proleague without Stephano Stephano forfeits GSL slot and leaves Korea
The best foreigner in Korea, Ilyes 'Stephano' Satouri, goes back to his home country to rest. Accordingly, he forfeits his GSL Code S seed.
written by Moritz 'm0s1n0' Lindner, March 27, 2013, 15:20 CET
As Korean scene website Naver is reporting, Ilyes 'Stephano' Satouri has decided against taking part in the GSL tournament. Even though the Frenchman played in the Up and Downs, he will forfeit his slot in the most important league in the world. The reason given is that Stephano wants to practice at home again in the future and focus on international events. It is thus likely that Stephano will not be available for EG-Liquid in Proleague, either.
This step by Stephano comes as a surprise especially because the Frenchman postponed his trip to IEM World Championship in Hanover for one day to be able to play in the GSL Up and Downs. Despite his success, Stephano's stay at the EG team house in Korea is over. It seems likely that the Frenchman, known already for his unconventional motivation for practice, is not interested in adhering to a strict practice regime in Korea.
Even though Stephano's biggest achievements date back several months, he was able to show convincing play in Korea reaching Code S twice via the Up and Downs, where he was eliminated in the round of 32. In Proleague the Frenchman was still able to score six victories in eleven games played. With this Stephano was by far the most successful foreigner in the league and recently was one of the only glimmers of hope of the joint venture.
Stephano is reported as saying that he intends to rest in his home country and focus on international tournaments. Official statements from either Evil Geniuses, the Frenchman himself, or GSL operator GomTV have thus far not been released.
UPDATE: Gomtv released the Code S schedule. It is made official.
Wow. Bummer. It's really disappointing to me that foreigners seem to give up their Code A/S spots so regularly. I realize it must be incredibly difficult for these players to be in Korea and banking so heavily on one tournament, but it is still incredibly disappointing. Especially for Stephano after going through the Up and Downs go just give it away seems like such a shame.
Considering he's been at the EG Lair all this time and I heard about some Twitter comments, which I pay very little attention too. Not surprised.
On March 28 2013 00:12 mechengineer123 wrote: Good decision, gsl is too hard for most people.
Living in Korea and not getting along with your coach is hard. I could have seen Draco playing for OGN Sparkyz; I could have seen NonY playing for estro; and I gave Stephano my blessings as a regular for EG-TL in PL. Shit. Maybe I just won't say anything. Foreigner's be dropping like flies.
didnt he want to stop his sc2 career at some point? forgot when he wanted to leave. if he quits sc2 going home wouldnt be a bad idea because the chances of winning some money in gsl is too small imo. otherwise i would have liked to see him staying in korea.
It makes sense, he clearly wasn't enjoying himself there and he's got a much higher probability of making money in tournaments outside of Korea. Heck it's even why Idra left Korea at the beginning of SC2.
On March 28 2013 00:14 jakethesnake wrote: Wow. Bummer. It's really disappointing to me that foreigners seem to give up their Code A/S spots so regularly. I realize it must be incredibly difficult for these players to be in Korea and banking so heavily on one tournament, but it is still incredibly disappointing. Especially for Stephano after going through the Up and Downs go just give it away seems like such a shame.
I would never stay more than 2 weeks in a other country in job-related reason.
On March 28 2013 00:17 75 wrote: didnt he want to stop his sc2 career at some point? forgot when he wanted to leave. if he quits sc2 going home wouldnt be a bad idea because the chances of winning some money in gsl is too small imo. otherwise i would have liked to see him staying in korea.
I thought it was something like a year left and then he wanted to see how long he could go for before Med School. Maybe that's changed. No idea.
On March 28 2013 00:14 jakethesnake wrote: Wow. Bummer. It's really disappointing to me that foreigners seem to give up their Code A/S spots so regularly. I realize it must be incredibly difficult for these players to be in Korea and banking so heavily on one tournament, but it is still incredibly disappointing. Especially for Stephano after going through the Up and Downs go just give it away seems like such a shame.
I would never stay more than 2 weeks in a other country in job-related reason.
Um. Weird way of putting it. I think you mean people re-locating for a job, which is actually fairly common for some when they're setting up a new branch/division some place else. Did it with Hayes and loves it, but yes relocating isn't for everyone. Business meetings, workshops and other functions are completely different. View those as LANs.
Is there more money involved playing on international tournaments? Even though playing in GSL Code S is an honour but I feel that to win it is not worth the effort. The competition in the international level is a little easier than in Korea.
On March 28 2013 00:22 DtorR wrote: Is there more money involved playing on international tournaments? Even though playing in GSL Code S is an honour but I feel that to win it is not worth the effort. The competition in the international level is a little easier than in Korea.
code S has more prize money but it is way easier to get money out of international tournements.
W.O.W nothing else to say really. This in itself depicts the foreign sc2 scene pretty way. BW-level of segregation is not far with motivation and character levels this low
On March 28 2013 00:21 Azriel wrote: Well, well. Looks like somebody is homesick. I guess South Korea isn't for everyone.
It was never supposed to be. Take the small talent pool you already have now divide that to a very small fraction. That's the amount of people who can adapt to those situations. Very small. Not only do you need talent. You need the right character as well which very few have.
On March 28 2013 00:14 jakethesnake wrote: Wow. Bummer. It's really disappointing to me that foreigners seem to give up their Code A/S spots so regularly. I realize it must be incredibly difficult for these players to be in Korea and banking so heavily on one tournament, but it is still incredibly disappointing. Especially for Stephano after going through the Up and Downs go just give it away seems like such a shame.
I would never stay more than 2 weeks in a other country in job-related reason.
man gaming is a passion. gaming in the mecca of gaming is a dream. I can name 45 foreigners in Korea who disagree with you. And thats why I never give much credit to such player like Stephano who has zero competitive spirit
I am really interested in experiencing Korea as they do. I mean a lot of people including me would probably think: Is it really that hard to motivate yourself to life a life like that? No one can say unless having experienced, so that's why I am so curious
Not really surprised. I don't see Stephano as the type to handle adversity well, he's only happy when things are going his way. I think this is less an issue of comfort as confidence.
Anyway, it's too bad. He was the only foreigner who could really challenge Koreans in Proleague, and I rooted for him every match despite not caring for him personally.
I am the author of the German article on fragster. Here is a short (got not much time) translation of it:
Stephano did decide to leave Korea to regain energy in Europe (most likely back home in France) and focus on international (non-Korean) tournaments. Due to that fact he will leave Korea and will forfeit his Code S-slot. Moreover it is very likely that he will not play Proleague anymore. A possible reasons I named furthermore (the decision made me very curious because he traveled to IEM WC one day later to play Up&Down) is the training schedule they have in Korea (Stephano was always kind of a player who was not really interested in strict schedules).
Adding some rumors I saw on Reddit some hours ago (not part of the article and NOT confirmed by any evidend source): - Maybe problems with the new Coach of EG-Liquid - Scarlett got offered a Code S-seed but declined (before Stephano forfeit) - Scarlett may take Stephanos slot now
On March 28 2013 00:22 DtorR wrote: Is there more money involved playing on international tournaments? Even though playing in GSL Code S is an honour but I feel that to win it is not worth the effort. The competition in the international level is a little easier than in Korea.
code S has more prize money but it is way easier to get money out of international tournements.
Same reason why others left and why other guys refuse to go.. Korea just needs to host more tournaments to get those guys over there. They'll just keep hosting more specials.
On March 28 2013 00:29 m0s1n0 wrote: Hey guys,
I am the author of the German article on fragster. Here is a short (got not much time) translation of it:
Stephano did decide to leave Korea due to regain energy in Europe (most likely back home in France) and focus on international (non-Korean) tournaments. Due to that fact he will leave Korea and will forfeit his Code S-slot. Moreover it is very likely that he will not play Proleague anymore. A possible reasons I named furthermore (the decision made me very curious because he traveled to IEM WC one day later to play Up&Down) is the training schedule they have in Korea (Stephano was always kind of a player who was not really interested in strict schedules).
Ofc he won't because he's not based out of there anymore O; The PL foreigner curse continues. Really need people who want to be there. I look forward to seeing who EG's next pick-ups will be. Send in the Terrans.
So fight for your spot to then leave? Should just dropped out during the up and down matches tbh... This is also wonderful news for EG-TL in proleague, like it couldn't get worse.
On March 28 2013 00:22 DtorR wrote: Is there more money involved playing on international tournaments? Even though playing in GSL Code S is an honour but I feel that to win it is not worth the effort. The competition in the international level is a little easier than in Korea.
oh yeah, foreign tourneys definitely provide more opportunities
the GSL is one massive tournament, that goes on for an extended period of time. If you're not in, like, the top 4 after it finishes or whatever, you won't make a lot of money...
foreign tourneys, however, are MUCH greater in number, with a lower quality of opponents, and more total Prize $ available
The main issue is foreigners never really had to work for their seeds so they don't appreciate it. How many foreigners have actually made it to GSL the traditional method? Sure you can argue they deserve it because they win up/down matches - but they never had to struggle through traditional GSL qualifiers.
There will never be a true top foreign contender until someone who is willing to do so and work hard for it shows up. Going to Korea just to "practice" isn't enough. It's about understanding the rigorous training schedule all these Koreans are FORCED to take up because it's so hard to qualify for GSL through qualifiers.
On March 28 2013 00:29 StarStruck wrote: Ofc he won't because he's not based out of there anymore O; The PL foreigner curse continues. Really need people who want to be there. I look forward to seeing who EG's next pick-ups will be. Send in the Terrans.
He may just travel to Korea for some matches before other tournaments in Asia or things like that. That's why I appointed that he just most likely will not play Proleague anymore. Did not want to announce anything that is not confirmed yet
On March 28 2013 00:14 jakethesnake wrote: Wow. Bummer. It's really disappointing to me that foreigners seem to give up their Code A/S spots so regularly. I realize it must be incredibly difficult for these players to be in Korea and banking so heavily on one tournament, but it is still incredibly disappointing. Especially for Stephano after going through the Up and Downs go just give it away seems like such a shame.
Come to think of it, I don't think the Koreans are so poor after all, considering the cut throat competition for the Code S / Code A spots. Basically every player in any other nation would wish that there was a city in his / her country, in which there is a regular, prestigious open league like the GSL. In particular with in the frequency of the first years, where it happened like every month. :o
On March 28 2013 00:22 DtorR wrote: Is there more money involved playing on international tournaments? Even though playing in GSL Code S is an honour but I feel that to win it is not worth the effort. The competition in the international level is a little easier than in Korea.
Not only that, but Stephano was having some real problems in Korea. English is his third language and the only way he could communicate with Koreans. That had to be the most frustrating experience in the world and very stressful. Even simply stuff like ordering food or taking a cab must have been a nightmare. That combined with the training and apparent lack of support they were getting before Coach Park joined, I am not surprised he is taking a break of Korea.
I don’t think this has much to do with the difficulty of code S, but living in Korea as a whole was not for him and had a really negative effect on him.
I think Incontrol said something that hinted at that. But. It kinda makes sense gsl code s is hard as hell. Honestly I think if he stays in the eg house for awhile he will get some good training kinda hoping an online league starts up soon lol.
he said on his latest stream that his next tournament was dreamhack so he is going to miss GSL code s 100 %, he has forfeited his spot for sure. Give the spot to Sortof or Scarlett!
On March 28 2013 00:32 RPR_Tempest wrote: I feel quite disappointed and betrayed by this. Foreigners in Korea is my absolute favourite type of competition in SC2.
I enjoy it too... Watching foreigners getting smacked down by actually good players is always entertaining.
On March 28 2013 00:30 mki wrote: The main issue is foreigners never really had to work for their seeds so they don't appreciate it. How many foreigners have actually made it to GSL the traditional method? Sure you can argue they deserve it because they win up/down matches - but they never had to struggle through traditional GSL qualifiers.
There will never be a true top foreign contender until someone who is willing to do so and work hard for it shows up. Going to Korea just to "practice" isn't enough. It's about understanding the rigorous training schedule all these Koreans are FORCED to take up because it's so hard to qualify for GSL through qualifiers.
I think you are disregarding the fact that Stephano was really unhappy living in Korea. As I stated before, English is his third language and he was having a really hard time communicating with anyone. That can have a very isolating affect on someone and lead to depression or other problems if it isn’t addressed. That and it is a pain in the ass. With the apparent lack of support that the EG-TL house was providing before Coach Park, it is no wonder Stephano wanted to get to a place with a better environment for him.
It’s not about foreigners being ungrateful, but about teams sending their players off to Korea and not taking care of them. These guys are living in a foreign country where they don’t speak or read the language. The teams should make more efforts to help them acclimate, rather than just dropping them infront of a PC and saying “get to it”.
On March 28 2013 00:22 DtorR wrote: Is there more money involved playing on international tournaments? Even though playing in GSL Code S is an honour but I feel that to win it is not worth the effort. The competition in the international level is a little easier than in Korea.
Not only that, but Stephano was having some real problems in Korea. English is his third language and the only way he could communicate with Koreans. That had to be the most frustrating experience in the world and very stressful. Even simply stuff like ordering food or taking a cab must have been a nightmare. That combined with the training and apparent lack of support they were getting before Coach Park joined, I am not surprised he is taking a break of Korea.
I don’t think this has much to do with the difficulty of code S, but living in Korea as a whole was not for him and had a really negative effect on him.
Lack of support? I don't know what you guys are talking about. Stephano's English is good. You have no privacy. You're around the rest of the boys all the time. They have management in place to address him. Now I can see player's being stubborn when it comes to coaches trying to get them to do what they want them to do. He had a coach there already. Coach Park isn't supposed to be some kind of savior as you guys make him out to be. The guy will help when it comes to bringing new talent in. Lots of us knew he was no longer in Korea and heck, some might think it's because the next round hasn't officially started plus the special tournament where he isn't readily available for selection makes it a no wonder.
I felt there were some depression related vibes coming from Stephano for a long time. Its a good decision to go home again, then. Hope he isn't too bummed about this..
...He's leaving because he hates it there. Haters gonna hate. What did stephano do when he first got to korea? oh, right, he won games in proleague right off the bat.
Get over it, he's code S material. He hates it there, and it's way too much effort if he's miserable and harder to make money.
I'm not exactly a fan but I don't dislike him, it was completely evident he was miserable in korea, if you're fans at all you should agree with his decision, as it's obviously the right one for him.
Well, as long as GSL needs high viewership, they're going to continue offering seeds to foreigners and other fresh faces. There will be others as long as the foreign talent pool doesn't decline too drastically.
On March 28 2013 00:36 GunSec wrote: he said on his latest stream that his next tournament was dreamhack so he is going to miss GSL code s 100 %, he has forfeited his spot for sure. Give the spot to Sortof or Scarlett!
Hell no, I hope GOM won't give spots to foreigners anymore.
this looks to like a management-driven move. If he loses or even gets crushed in GSL his status as one of the best crumbles even further and maybe EG wont take that risk.
It`s really sad we can`t see him fight the best. : /
On March 28 2013 00:41 LainRivers wrote: ...He's leaving because he hates it there. Haters gonna hate. What did stephano do when he first got to korea? oh, right, he won games in proleague right off the bat.
Get over it, he's code S material. He hates it there, and it's way too much effort if he's miserable and harder to make money.
I'm not exactly a fan but I don't dislike him, it was completely evident he was miserable in korea, if you're fans at all you should agree with his decision, as it's obviously the right one for him.
To be Code S material you sort of have to compete and want and like being in Korea. So while he might have the skill he certainly doesn't have the heart. You need heart to live and play in the best league.
On March 28 2013 00:32 RPR_Tempest wrote: I feel quite disappointed and betrayed by this. Foreigners in Korea is my absolute favourite type of competition in SC2.
I enjoy it too... Watching foreigners getting smacked down by actually good players is always entertaining.
On March 28 2013 00:22 DtorR wrote: Is there more money involved playing on international tournaments? Even though playing in GSL Code S is an honour but I feel that to win it is not worth the effort. The competition in the international level is a little easier than in Korea.
Not only that, but Stephano was having some real problems in Korea. English is his third language and the only way he could communicate with Koreans. That had to be the most frustrating experience in the world and very stressful. Even simply stuff like ordering food or taking a cab must have been a nightmare. That combined with the training and apparent lack of support they were getting before Coach Park joined, I am not surprised he is taking a break of Korea.
I don’t think this has much to do with the difficulty of code S, but living in Korea as a whole was not for him and had a really negative effect on him.
Lack of support? I don't know what you guys are talking about. Stephano's English is good. You have no privacy. You're around the rest of the boys all the time. They have management in place to address him. Now I can see player's being stubborn when it comes to coaches trying to get them to do what they want them to do. He had a coach there already. Coach Park isn't supposed to be some kind of savior as you guys make him out to be. The guy will help when it comes to bringing new talent in. Lots of us knew he was no longer in Korea and heck, some might think it's because the next round hasn't officially started plus the special tournament where he isn't readily available for selection makes it a no wonder.
You should listen to the interview on the Pulse this week with Alex Garfield. He flat out says he did not have enough support for players in the EG-TL Lab and their coaching was not sufficient. He goes farther to say they are taking steps to provide better support for players in both NA and Korea. The third language issue is a thing as well, since all Koreans don’t speak or understand perfect English. These are the kind of issues that people don’t take into account when they send their players off to other countries. It is not rocket science to say “I am sending this player off to another country with a wildly different language and culture. I wonder if adjusting that change will have a negative effect on their practice and play?”
On March 28 2013 00:46 zul wrote: this looks to like a management-driven move. If he loses or even gets crushed in GSL his status as one of the best crumbles even further and maybe EG wont take that risk.
It`s really sad we can`t see him fight the best. : /
More like Stephano didn't want to be there like many others.
This is a great choice for Stephano, why compete against a bunch of koreans for such small prize money (small relative to the tournament length when gsl goes for almost 2 months whereas other tourneys finish within 3 days) when he knows that he can pwn foreigners left and right in the international tournaments?
On March 28 2013 00:41 LainRivers wrote: ...He's leaving because he hates it there. Haters gonna hate. What did stephano do when he first got to korea? oh, right, he won games in proleague right off the bat.
Get over it, he's code S material. He hates it there, and it's way too much effort if he's miserable and harder to make money.
I'm not exactly a fan but I don't dislike him, it was completely evident he was miserable in korea, if you're fans at all you should agree with his decision, as it's obviously the right one for him.
Do you think he hates it there because of the food and the culture, or because he's actually forced to practice and he's losing games against players he expected to destroy?
There are a lot of factors of course, but let's not pretend he's just homesick. He's having difficulty adjusting to what a SC2 progamer should be, and he's giving up in favor of something easier.
On March 28 2013 00:52 mongmong wrote: This is a great choice for Stephano, why compete against a bunch of koreans for such small prize money (small relative to the tournament length when gsl goes for almost 2 months whereas other tourneys finish within 3 days) when he knows that he can pwn foreigners left and right in the international tournaments?
This isn't WOL circa 2012. Stephano doesn't even dominate foreigners anymore.
In a post Brood Lord/Infestor world Stephano won't be anywhere near as dominant against Protoss/Terran opponents.
Not to mention of course that Koreans still show up to MLG's and to a lesser extent Dreamhack and IEM.
On March 28 2013 00:22 DtorR wrote: Is there more money involved playing on international tournaments? Even though playing in GSL Code S is an honour but I feel that to win it is not worth the effort. The competition in the international level is a little easier than in Korea.
Not only that, but Stephano was having some real problems in Korea. English is his third language and the only way he could communicate with Koreans. That had to be the most frustrating experience in the world and very stressful. Even simply stuff like ordering food or taking a cab must have been a nightmare. That combined with the training and apparent lack of support they were getting before Coach Park joined, I am not surprised he is taking a break of Korea.
I don’t think this has much to do with the difficulty of code S, but living in Korea as a whole was not for him and had a really negative effect on him.
Lack of support? I don't know what you guys are talking about. Stephano's English is good. You have no privacy. You're around the rest of the boys all the time. They have management in place to address him. Now I can see player's being stubborn when it comes to coaches trying to get them to do what they want them to do. He had a coach there already. Coach Park isn't supposed to be some kind of savior as you guys make him out to be. The guy will help when it comes to bringing new talent in. Lots of us knew he was no longer in Korea and heck, some might think it's because the next round hasn't officially started plus the special tournament where he isn't readily available for selection makes it a no wonder.
You should listen to the interview on the Pulse this week with Alex Garfield. He flat out says he did not have enough support for players in the EG-TL Lab and their coaching was not sufficient. He goes farther to say they are taking steps to provide better support for players in both NA and Korea. The third language issue is a thing as well, since all Koreans don’t speak or understand perfect English. These are the kind of issues that people don’t take into account when they send their players off to other countries. It is not rocket science to say “I am sending this player off to another country with a wildly different language and culture. I wonder if adjusting that change will have a negative effect on their practice and play?”
Rather not because I take everything that guy says with a grain of salt and considering how many ridiculous podcasts are out there. You only have so much time for everything. That's what he believes and he only checks in from time to time. Trot is proven. I'm sorry you guys don't feel that way yet with EG but this guy has a ton of experience. Why the heck you think they brought him in the first place? lol The support they need comes down to more personnel. More sparring partners. Good luck with North America. Unless you relocate them all to a centralized location that's just throwing away money. Have one operation and pick where you want it. It isn't rocket science. You have to identify whether or not that player can adapt beforehand and considering Stephano has always had a lax and "I don't know how much longer I'm going to play before Med School attitude" you're taking a pretty big risk. If I were Alex I would have taken that risk too because the kid got talent. End of story.
On March 28 2013 00:46 scissorhands wrote: I don't know why I'm having so much trouble finding Stephano's proleague record. Anyone have that handy?
His PL record is 6-5.
Stephano wasnt mentally cut out for what was expected of him in Korea. Many people are implying that it means he wasnt cut out for the standard of play but thats nonsense as his record in Korea shows. He can go toe to toe with the Koreans even in Korea. But that doesnt mean he is as good as life or mvp....
On March 28 2013 00:52 mongmong wrote: This is a great choice for Stephano, why compete against a bunch of koreans for such small prize money (small relative to the tournament length when gsl goes for almost 2 months whereas other tourneys finish within 3 days) when he knows that he can pwn foreigners left and right in the international tournaments?
This isn't WOL circa 2012. Stephano doesn't even dominate foreigners anymore.
In a post Brood Lord/Infestor world Stephano won't be anywhere near as dominant against Protoss/Terran opponents.
Not to mention of course that Koreans still show up to MLG's and to a lesser extent Dreamhack and IEM.
Zerg still have roaches, right? Last time I checked, Stephano was the Roach King long before we ever even thought of the phrase “patchzerg".
On March 28 2013 00:30 mki wrote: The main issue is foreigners never really had to work for their seeds so they don't appreciate it. How many foreigners have actually made it to GSL the traditional method? Sure you can argue they deserve it because they win up/down matches - but they never had to struggle through traditional GSL qualifiers.
There will never be a true top foreign contender until someone who is willing to do so and work hard for it shows up. Going to Korea just to "practice" isn't enough. It's about understanding the rigorous training schedule all these Koreans are FORCED to take up because it's so hard to qualify for GSL through qualifiers.
I think you are disregarding the fact that Stephano was really unhappy living in Korea. As I stated before, English is his third language and he was having a really hard time communicating with anyone. That can have a very isolating affect on someone and lead to depression or other problems if it isn’t addressed. That and it is a pain in the ass. With the apparent lack of support that the EG-TL house was providing before Coach Park, it is no wonder Stephano wanted to get to a place with a better environment for him.
It’s not about foreigners being ungrateful, but about teams sending their players off to Korea and not taking care of them. These guys are living in a foreign country where they don’t speak or read the language. The teams should make more efforts to help them acclimate, rather than just dropping them infront of a PC and saying “get to it”.
you talk as if EG dispatches him to Korea from the airplane with a parachute and nothing else. Come to think of it, foreigners coming to Korea in early 2000s (in both bw & wc3) didnt have one fourth the "support" that Stephano has (yeah they didnt get seeded either) and they still enjoyed Korea and used this opportunity to develop. Yes theres lots of failures but no one needs such excuses lol.
On March 28 2013 00:52 mongmong wrote: This is a great choice for Stephano, why compete against a bunch of koreans for such small prize money (small relative to the tournament length when gsl goes for almost 2 months whereas other tourneys finish within 3 days) when he knows that he can pwn foreigners left and right in the international tournaments?
This isn't WOL circa 2012. Stephano doesn't even dominate foreigners anymore.
In a post Brood Lord/Infestor world Stephano won't be anywhere near as dominant against Protoss/Terran opponents.
Not to mention of course that Koreans still show up to MLG's and to a lesser extent Dreamhack and IEM.
Stephano may have been the best bl infestor playing foreigner but that doesnt mean its what he relied on. Not like he innovated multiple styles in multiple match ups that became standard play. I think predicting him to become at the minimum the best foreign zerg in HotS is completely reasonable if he feels comfortable at home again. I expect him to win at least one premier tournament in HotS.
On March 28 2013 00:22 DtorR wrote: Is there more money involved playing on international tournaments? Even though playing in GSL Code S is an honour but I feel that to win it is not worth the effort. The competition in the international level is a little easier than in Korea.
Not only that, but Stephano was having some real problems in Korea. English is his third language and the only way he could communicate with Koreans. That had to be the most frustrating experience in the world and very stressful. Even simply stuff like ordering food or taking a cab must have been a nightmare. That combined with the training and apparent lack of support they were getting before Coach Park joined, I am not surprised he is taking a break of Korea.
I don’t think this has much to do with the difficulty of code S, but living in Korea as a whole was not for him and had a really negative effect on him.
Lack of support? I don't know what you guys are talking about. Stephano's English is good. You have no privacy. You're around the rest of the boys all the time. They have management in place to address him. Now I can see player's being stubborn when it comes to coaches trying to get them to do what they want them to do. He had a coach there already. Coach Park isn't supposed to be some kind of savior as you guys make him out to be. The guy will help when it comes to bringing new talent in. Lots of us knew he was no longer in Korea and heck, some might think it's because the next round hasn't officially started plus the special tournament where he isn't readily available for selection makes it a no wonder.
You should listen to the interview on the Pulse this week with Alex Garfield. He flat out says he did not have enough support for players in the EG-TL Lab and their coaching was not sufficient. He goes farther to say they are taking steps to provide better support for players in both NA and Korea. The third language issue is a thing as well, since all Koreans don’t speak or understand perfect English. These are the kind of issues that people don’t take into account when they send their players off to other countries. It is not rocket science to say “I am sending this player off to another country with a wildly different language and culture. I wonder if adjusting that change will have a negative effect on their practice and play?”
Rather not because I take everything that guy says with a grain of salt and considering how many ridiculous podcasts are out there. You only have so much time for everything. That's what he believes and he only checks in from time to time. Trot is proven. I'm sorry you guys don't feel that way yet with EG but this guy has a ton of experience. Why the heck you think they brought him in the first place? lol The support they need comes down to more personnel. More sparring partners. Good luck with North America. Unless you relocate them all to a centralized location that's just throwing away money. Have one operation and pick where you want it. It isn't rocket science. You have to identify whether or not that player can adapt beforehand and considering Stephano has always had a lax and "I don't know how much longer I'm going to play before Med School attitude" you're taking a pretty big risk. If I were Alex I would have taken that risk too because the kid got talent. End of story.
Starstruck, I get what you are saying and I agree that everything should be taking with a grain of salt. But I still think you should check it out, because I think it is worth your time and you can sort the BS from the real stuff. Garfield is very canded about the state of things in Korean and his mistakes with the team. And he doesn't blame anyone other than himself. Also, Mr. Bitter doesn't give Garfield a lot of breaks when it comes to the interview, either.
I am with you on that training in NA is a bad idea and will not help players inprove quickly. However, the current way teams are training their players in Korea isn't much better. You can't just take a player that was winning some events, drop them in Korean with a computer, a bed, food and point them in the direction of the GOM studio. I know there is more going on that than, but teams need to think of sending their players to Korea like taking and Korean player and dropping them in New York. There needs to be a plan.
On March 28 2013 00:36 GunSec wrote: he said on his latest stream that his next tournament was dreamhack so he is going to miss GSL code s 100 %, he has forfeited his spot for sure. Give the spot to Sortof or Scarlett!
Hell no, I hope GOM won't give spots to foreigners anymore.
This. I'm sick of charity seeds being given out to foreigners that go home after a month or two. Let the Koreans that actually deserve the spot have it.
All the best to Stephano, I hope he feels better at home and is able to keep his life on track.
Personally, this will not affect my appreciation for the Korean scene. Maybe it's all the days of watching VODs of Korean commentators not understanding what they were saying, but I always loved the Starcraft scene because of its distance from Western culture. If the majority foreign fans need someone with white skin and the knowledge of the English language competing to make the game entertaining, well, that's just unfortunate.
Fair enough Stephano. I know that I as a westerner would not be able to live in South Korea because I find koreans very standoffish, their work ethic causes depression to anyone who is not used to it and the language barrier basically destroys your ability to socialise. Anyways gl wherever you are going.
ps. If I was you, I would go sunbathing in Arizona.
On March 28 2013 00:52 mongmong wrote: This is a great choice for Stephano, why compete against a bunch of koreans for such small prize money (small relative to the tournament length when gsl goes for almost 2 months whereas other tourneys finish within 3 days) when he knows that he can pwn foreigners left and right in the international tournaments?
This isn't WOL circa 2012. Stephano doesn't even dominate foreigners anymore.
In a post Brood Lord/Infestor world Stephano won't be anywhere near as dominant against Protoss/Terran opponents.
Not to mention of course that Koreans still show up to MLG's and to a lesser extent Dreamhack and IEM.
This foreigners flying in Code S and leaving a week after is really frustrating. Especially if you see alot of good quality Koreans put aside for it. Is Grubby still in Korea?
On March 28 2013 00:36 GunSec wrote: he said on his latest stream that his next tournament was dreamhack so he is going to miss GSL code s 100 %, he has forfeited his spot for sure. Give the spot to Sortof or Scarlett!
Hell no, I hope GOM won't give spots to foreigners anymore.
This. I'm sick of charity seeds being given out to foreigners that go home after a month or two. Let the Koreans that actually deserve the spot have it.
On March 28 2013 00:30 mki wrote: The main issue is foreigners never really had to work for their seeds so they don't appreciate it. How many foreigners have actually made it to GSL the traditional method? Sure you can argue they deserve it because they win up/down matches - but they never had to struggle through traditional GSL qualifiers.
There will never be a true top foreign contender until someone who is willing to do so and work hard for it shows up. Going to Korea just to "practice" isn't enough. It's about understanding the rigorous training schedule all these Koreans are FORCED to take up because it's so hard to qualify for GSL through qualifiers.
I think you are disregarding the fact that Stephano was really unhappy living in Korea. As I stated before, English is his third language and he was having a really hard time communicating with anyone. That can have a very isolating affect on someone and lead to depression or other problems if it isn’t addressed. That and it is a pain in the ass. With the apparent lack of support that the EG-TL house was providing before Coach Park, it is no wonder Stephano wanted to get to a place with a better environment for him.
It’s not about foreigners being ungrateful, but about teams sending their players off to Korea and not taking care of them. These guys are living in a foreign country where they don’t speak or read the language. The teams should make more efforts to help them acclimate, rather than just dropping them infront of a PC and saying “get to it”.
you talk as if EG dispatches him to Korea from the airplane with a parachute and nothing else. Come to think of it, foreigners coming to Korea in early 2000s (in both bw & wc3) didnt have one fourth the "support" that Stephano has (yeah they didnt get seeded either) and they still enjoyed Korea and used this opportunity to develop. Yes theres lots of failures but no one needs such excuses lol.
But all of those players wanted to go to Korea to train and get better. They did it on their own dime. It is unclear if Stephano would ever have moved to Korea if he was not on EG(I doubt it). I am not making excuses for Stephano leaving, but more that the current situtation was not a good training environment for him at all. And creating a good training environment for your players is the teams problem. And if the player is really unhappy, he isn't going to preform.
On March 28 2013 00:59 Proseat wrote: Not surprised either. Just a shame that he didn't do this before his up and down matches.
Stephano had to know it was better to forfeit if he was 100% sure at the time, but since he didn't, it was probably a combination of him still being on the fence, and EG trying to convince him that he should give Code S another shot. If he was on the fence, I can see how going back to his home country and celebrating his birthday there had a big influence on his choice. It's a big, concentrated dose of "oh right, this is all the great stuff I'm missing out on."
On March 28 2013 00:36 GunSec wrote: he said on his latest stream that his next tournament was dreamhack so he is going to miss GSL code s 100 %, he has forfeited his spot for sure. Give the spot to Sortof or Scarlett!
Hell no, I hope GOM won't give spots to foreigners anymore.
This. I'm sick of charity seeds being given out to foreigners that go home after a month or two. Let the Koreans that actually deserve the spot have it.
Except for Scarlett please
Scarlet already refused one and is going to try the qualifiers instead.
I don't see how you can blame a person for not wanting to move to a foreign country where he doesn't know the language or have any friends. I would also like if he played in the GSL, but I think some people here are overreacting...
On March 28 2013 00:22 DtorR wrote: Is there more money involved playing on international tournaments? Even though playing in GSL Code S is an honour but I feel that to win it is not worth the effort. The competition in the international level is a little easier than in Korea.
Not only that, but Stephano was having some real problems in Korea. English is his third language and the only way he could communicate with Koreans. That had to be the most frustrating experience in the world and very stressful. Even simply stuff like ordering food or taking a cab must have been a nightmare. That combined with the training and apparent lack of support they were getting before Coach Park joined, I am not surprised he is taking a break of Korea.
I don’t think this has much to do with the difficulty of code S, but living in Korea as a whole was not for him and had a really negative effect on him.
Lack of support? I don't know what you guys are talking about. Stephano's English is good. You have no privacy. You're around the rest of the boys all the time. They have management in place to address him. Now I can see player's being stubborn when it comes to coaches trying to get them to do what they want them to do. He had a coach there already. Coach Park isn't supposed to be some kind of savior as you guys make him out to be. The guy will help when it comes to bringing new talent in. Lots of us knew he was no longer in Korea and heck, some might think it's because the next round hasn't officially started plus the special tournament where he isn't readily available for selection makes it a no wonder.
You should listen to the interview on the Pulse this week with Alex Garfield. He flat out says he did not have enough support for players in the EG-TL Lab and their coaching was not sufficient. He goes farther to say they are taking steps to provide better support for players in both NA and Korea. The third language issue is a thing as well, since all Koreans don’t speak or understand perfect English. These are the kind of issues that people don’t take into account when they send their players off to other countries. It is not rocket science to say “I am sending this player off to another country with a wildly different language and culture. I wonder if adjusting that change will have a negative effect on their practice and play?”
Rather not because I take everything that guy says with a grain of salt and considering how many ridiculous podcasts are out there. You only have so much time for everything. That's what he believes and he only checks in from time to time. Trot is proven. I'm sorry you guys don't feel that way yet with EG but this guy has a ton of experience. Why the heck you think they brought him in the first place? lol The support they need comes down to more personnel. More sparring partners. Good luck with North America. Unless you relocate them all to a centralized location that's just throwing away money. Have one operation and pick where you want it. It isn't rocket science. You have to identify whether or not that player can adapt beforehand and considering Stephano has always had a lax and "I don't know how much longer I'm going to play before Med School attitude" you're taking a pretty big risk. If I were Alex I would have taken that risk too because the kid got talent. End of story.
Starstruck, I get what you are saying and I agree that everything should be taking with a grain of salt. But I still think you should check it out, because I think it is worth your time and you can sort the BS from the real stuff. Garfield is very canded about the state of things in Korean and his mistakes with the team. And he doesn't blame anyone other than himself. Also, Mr. Bitter doesn't give Garfield a lot of breaks when it comes to the interview, either.
I am with you on that training in NA is a bad idea and will not help players inprove quickly. However, the current way teams are training their players in Korea isn't much better. You can't just take a player that was winning some events, drop them in Korean with a computer, a bed, food and point them in the direction of the GOM studio. I know there is more going on that than, but teams need to think of sending their players to Korea like taking and Korean player and dropping them in New York. There needs to be a plan.
I've always thought of the GSL, Proleague, MLG, Dreamhack, etc. as different leagues in the same sport, kinda like the different leagues in the NFL, or MLB. They simply have different ways to go about the same thing. GSL has a lot of mental preparation attached to it because the matches are so far apart and for the most part you know who you're facing long in advance. Proleague has a format where players will be able to focus on maps specifically and matchups they can be used as snipers in. Foreign tournaments require you to be awesome at every matchup at any given time, and to be able to play marathon gaming sessions. To say that any one of those additional skills necessary are less difficult than any of the others is ignorant.
My point is simply that it's disappointing to hear all the hate Stephano's getting for leaving Korea when the tournaments he was there for focused on a play style that he might not be as capable of adapting to. We have this idea that certain foreigners shouldn't have beaten certain koreans, or aren't as good as certain koreans, when the korean players are playing in foreign tournaments. It's simply that there are different styles and the players involved have different strengths and weaknesses not only in the play of the actual game, but also the preparation, and how they handle the individual tournament themselves.
The only things we can say about Stephano leaving Korea are what we've heard first hand. Him leaving is not foreigner laziness, it's him deciding to leave. Focusing on international tournaments doesn't make him a worse player than Koreans, it means that's what he's most comfortable with and where he has the best opportunity to make a living.
He said that he hated his latest trip to Korea and the only reason he stayed was because Thorzain was there. It doesnt seem like he wants to be a static player in the GSL/PL, he wants to travel and have fun and win, which you cant really blame him for.
Lol I have a feeling I'm gonna get warned, but I feel that Stephano is such a loser for doing this.. Did he even try? Maybe his "I never care" attitude like IdrA is giving me the wrong vibe about him.
Don't get me wrong, I love him as a top foreigner. But to read this is basically telling me that he's giving up. Not every SC2 player gets to go to Korea to further develop their talent and participate in Code S.
more evidence that code S seeds to foreigners are the most pointless waste of time ever. Take away a spot from the best players to get views for like 2-3 nights of them falling out of code S, A, GSL..and then giving up and going back to making money from streams and salaries and foreign tournaments. I don't blame them to be honest...but it is disheartening to see that really very few if any have any drive/heart to actually be the best at the game rather than JUST to make bank. Where are the people with the passion and drive of Artosis in the BW days!!! Major seems to be the best hope, I really hope that he becomes beast over there and starts wrecking face...
p.s stephano was super unhappy over there and he doesn't seem all that happy with sc2/ being in EG in general anyway...break/retirement soon may be the best thing for his own happiness and future. Not everyone is cut out for progaming no matter how great they are.
On March 28 2013 01:26 Azarkon wrote: I understand people being disappointed but... When was the last time one of these Korean trips paid off for a NA / EU player? Naniwa circa mid 2012?
Depends on what you mean by paid off. Winning a GSL, well there's only Jinro I think. But if you mean paid off as in having their talent further developed and becoming more of a beast, can't name the players because I'm not as into esports as you guys, but I'd say a lot?
On March 28 2013 01:22 Noobity wrote: I've always thought of the GSL, Proleague, MLG, Dreamhack, etc. as different leagues in the same sport, kinda like the different leagues in the NFL, or MLB. They simply have different ways to go about the same thing. GSL has a lot of mental preparation attached to it because the matches are so far apart and for the most part you know who you're facing long in advance. Proleague has a format where players will be able to focus on maps specifically and matchups they can be used as snipers in. Foreign tournaments require you to be awesome at every matchup at any given time, and to be able to play marathon gaming sessions. To say that any one of those additional skills necessary are less difficult than any of the others is ignorant.
My point is simply that it's disappointing to hear all the hate Stephano's getting for leaving Korea when the tournaments he was there for focused on a play style that he might not be as capable of adapting to. We have this idea that certain foreigners shouldn't have beaten certain koreans, or aren't as good as certain koreans, when the korean players are playing in foreign tournaments. It's simply that there are different styles and the players involved have different strengths and weaknesses not only in the play of the actual game, but also the preparation, and how they handle the individual tournament themselves.
The only things we can say about Stephano leaving Korea are what we've heard first hand. Him leaving is not foreigner laziness, it's him deciding to leave. Focusing on international tournaments doesn't make him a worse player than Koreans, it means that's what he's most comfortable with and where he has the best opportunity to make a living.
He got 3-0'ed at MLG and IEM too. It has nothing to do with tournament format. Most of his big wins were in tournaments with much weaker competition compared to the GSL or the other tournaments he didn't do well in.
On March 28 2013 01:26 Azarkon wrote: I understand people being disappointed but... When was the last time one of these Korean trips paid off for a NA / EU player? Naniwa circa mid 2012?
Depends on what you mean by paid off. Winning a GSL, well there's only Jinro I think. But if you mean paid off as in having their talent further developed and becoming more of a beast, can't name the players because I'm not as into esports as you guys, but I'd say a lot?
Jinro didn't win a GSL. He placed Ro4. As for improving players, I don't know - Thorzain doesn't look so hot after his stay in Korea, and neither does HuK these days.
On March 28 2013 01:24 geokilla wrote: Lol I have a feeling I'm gonna get warned, but I feel that Stephano is such a loser for doing this.. Did he even try? Maybe his "I never care" attitude like IdrA is giving me the wrong vibe about him.
Don't get me wrong, I love him as a top foreigner. But to read this is basically telling me that he's giving up. Not every SC2 player gets to go to Korea to further develop their talent and participate in Code S.
And not every sc2 player aspires to participate in Code S, let the man make his own decision.
On March 28 2013 01:26 Azarkon wrote: I understand people being disappointed but... When was the last time one of these Korean trips paid off for a NA / EU player? Naniwa circa mid 2012?
Depends on what you mean by paid off. Winning a GSL, well there's only Jinro I think. But if you mean paid off as in having their talent further developed and becoming more of a beast, can't name the players because I'm not as into esports as you guys, but I'd say a lot?
Jinro didn't win a GSL. He placed Ro4. As for improving players, I don't know - Thorzain doesn't look so hot after his stay in Korea, and neither does HuK these days.
Yeah I can't really think of a player who came back stronger.
I am the author of the German article on fragster. Here is a short (got not much time) translation of it:
Stephano did decide to leave Korea to regain energy in Europe (most likely back home in France) and focus on international (non-Korean) tournaments. Due to that fact he will leave Korea and will forfeit his Code S-slot. Moreover it is very likely that he will not play Proleague anymore. A possible reasons I named furthermore (the decision made me very curious because he traveled to IEM WC one day later to play Up&Down) is the training schedule they have in Korea (Stephano was always kind of a player who was not really interested in strict schedules).
Adding some rumors I saw on Reddit some hours ago (not part of the article and NOT confirmed by any evidend source): - Maybe problems with the new Coach of EG-Liquid - Scarlett got offered a Code S-seed but declined (before Stephano forfeit) - Scarlett may take Stephanos slot now
Here is a full translation of the fragster.de article:
Code S and Proleague without Stephano Stephano forfeits GSL slot and leaves Korea
The best foreigner in Korea, Ilyes 'Stephano' Satouri, goes back to his home country to rest. Accordingly, he forfeits his GSL Code S seed.
written by Moritz 'm0s1n0' Lindner, March 27, 2013, 15:20 CET
As Korean scene website Naver is reporting, Ilyes 'Stephano' Satouri has decided against taking part in the GSL tournament. Even though the Frenchman played in the Up and Downs, he will forfeit his slot in the most important league in the world. The reason given is that Stephano wants to practice at home again in the future and focus on international events. It is thus likely that Stephano will not be available for EG-Liquid in Proleague, either.
This step by Stephano comes as a surprise especially because the Frenchman postponed his trip to IEM World Championship in Hanover for one day to be able to play in the GSL Up and Downs. Despite his success, Stephano's stay at the EG team house in Korea is over. It seems likely that the Frenchman, known already for his unconventional motivation for practice, is not interested in adhering to a strict practice regime in Korea.
Even though Stephano's biggest achievements date back several months, he was able to show convincing play in Korea reaching Code S twice via the Up and Downs, where he was eliminated in the round of 32. In Proleague the Frenchman was still able to score six victories in eleven games played. With this Stephano was by far the most successful foreigner in the league and recently was one of the only glimmers of hope of the joint venture.
Stephano is reported as saying that he intends to rest in his home country and focus on international tournaments. Official statements from either Evil Geniuses, the Frenchman himself, or GSL operator GomTV have thus far not been released.
On March 28 2013 01:26 Azarkon wrote: I understand people being disappointed but... When was the last time one of these Korean trips paid off for a NA / EU player? Naniwa circa mid 2012?
Depends on what you mean by paid off. Winning a GSL, well there's only Jinro I think. But if you mean paid off as in having their talent further developed and becoming more of a beast, can't name the players because I'm not as into esports as you guys, but I'd say a lot?
Jinro didn't win a GSL. He placed Ro4. As for improving players, I don't know - Thorzain doesn't look so hot after his stay in Korea, and neither does HuK these days.
it's because they are just laddering and not actually communicating with better players, in korean teamhouses they discuss strategies and coaches are pointing out weaknesses in their gameplay etc. If you have someone that is very good at analysing games and even strategical mindgames then you are going to be a top notch player, if not then you are not going to improve that fast or even nothing at all. I think that having a good coach is the key to being a better player.
On March 28 2013 01:22 Noobity wrote: I've always thought of the GSL, Proleague, MLG, Dreamhack, etc. as different leagues in the same sport, kinda like the different leagues in the NFL, or MLB. They simply have different ways to go about the same thing. GSL has a lot of mental preparation attached to it because the matches are so far apart and for the most part you know who you're facing long in advance. Proleague has a format where players will be able to focus on maps specifically and matchups they can be used as snipers in. Foreign tournaments require you to be awesome at every matchup at any given time, and to be able to play marathon gaming sessions. To say that any one of those additional skills necessary are less difficult than any of the others is ignorant.
My point is simply that it's disappointing to hear all the hate Stephano's getting for leaving Korea when the tournaments he was there for focused on a play style that he might not be as capable of adapting to. We have this idea that certain foreigners shouldn't have beaten certain koreans, or aren't as good as certain koreans, when the korean players are playing in foreign tournaments. It's simply that there are different styles and the players involved have different strengths and weaknesses not only in the play of the actual game, but also the preparation, and how they handle the individual tournament themselves.
The only things we can say about Stephano leaving Korea are what we've heard first hand. Him leaving is not foreigner laziness, it's him deciding to leave. Focusing on international tournaments doesn't make him a worse player than Koreans, it means that's what he's most comfortable with and where he has the best opportunity to make a living.
He got 3-0'ed at MLG and IEM too. It has nothing to do with tournament format. Most of his big wins were in tournaments with much weaker competition compared to the GSL or the other tournaments he didn't do well in.
He didnt go far in Dreamhack Winter 2012 where the only koreans were Hero/Taeja/Forgg/theSTC.
On March 28 2013 01:22 Noobity wrote: I've always thought of the GSL, Proleague, MLG, Dreamhack, etc. as different leagues in the same sport, kinda like the different leagues in the NFL, or MLB. They simply have different ways to go about the same thing. GSL has a lot of mental preparation attached to it because the matches are so far apart and for the most part you know who you're facing long in advance. Proleague has a format where players will be able to focus on maps specifically and matchups they can be used as snipers in. Foreign tournaments require you to be awesome at every matchup at any given time, and to be able to play marathon gaming sessions. To say that any one of those additional skills necessary are less difficult than any of the others is ignorant.
My point is simply that it's disappointing to hear all the hate Stephano's getting for leaving Korea when the tournaments he was there for focused on a play style that he might not be as capable of adapting to. We have this idea that certain foreigners shouldn't have beaten certain koreans, or aren't as good as certain koreans, when the korean players are playing in foreign tournaments. It's simply that there are different styles and the players involved have different strengths and weaknesses not only in the play of the actual game, but also the preparation, and how they handle the individual tournament themselves.
The only things we can say about Stephano leaving Korea are what we've heard first hand. Him leaving is not foreigner laziness, it's him deciding to leave. Focusing on international tournaments doesn't make him a worse player than Koreans, it means that's what he's most comfortable with and where he has the best opportunity to make a living.
He got 3-0'ed at MLG and IEM too. It has nothing to do with tournament format. Most of his big wins were in tournaments with much weaker competition compared to the GSL or the other tournaments he didn't do well in.
You're judging his performance at MLG and IEM which were played on HotS, but he didn't play HotS because of...Code S and Proleague.
On March 28 2013 01:22 Noobity wrote: I've always thought of the GSL, Proleague, MLG, Dreamhack, etc. as different leagues in the same sport, kinda like the different leagues in the NFL, or MLB. They simply have different ways to go about the same thing. GSL has a lot of mental preparation attached to it because the matches are so far apart and for the most part you know who you're facing long in advance. Proleague has a format where players will be able to focus on maps specifically and matchups they can be used as snipers in. Foreign tournaments require you to be awesome at every matchup at any given time, and to be able to play marathon gaming sessions. To say that any one of those additional skills necessary are less difficult than any of the others is ignorant.
My point is simply that it's disappointing to hear all the hate Stephano's getting for leaving Korea when the tournaments he was there for focused on a play style that he might not be as capable of adapting to. We have this idea that certain foreigners shouldn't have beaten certain koreans, or aren't as good as certain koreans, when the korean players are playing in foreign tournaments. It's simply that there are different styles and the players involved have different strengths and weaknesses not only in the play of the actual game, but also the preparation, and how they handle the individual tournament themselves.
The only things we can say about Stephano leaving Korea are what we've heard first hand. Him leaving is not foreigner laziness, it's him deciding to leave. Focusing on international tournaments doesn't make him a worse player than Koreans, it means that's what he's most comfortable with and where he has the best opportunity to make a living.
He got 3-0'ed at MLG and IEM too. It has nothing to do with tournament format. Most of his big wins were in tournaments with much weaker competition compared to the GSL or the other tournaments he didn't do well in.
Well to be fair, he go 3-0ed by a Kespa player, Last, in one of the most stacked brackets I have ever seen. Last then went 2-3 vs Life, who won MLG. He didn't lose to some scrub, but a guy who almost beat the winner of the entire event.
Right desicion IMHO. His interviews made it really clear, that he hated it being there and where is the point of living the e-sports life, if you don´t enjoy it? Also his play seemed to actually have gone weeker, while staying, so there is really no point to do that.
His spot should go to someone that already proofed himself in Hots. Whether that is MVP, First, Last, Yonghwa, someone else I forgot, or the winner of a Code-A-wildcard-tourney is GOM´s decision, but I hope we will see no foreigner seed, that has´nt proven himself in foreign competition first.
On March 28 2013 01:22 Noobity wrote: I've always thought of the GSL, Proleague, MLG, Dreamhack, etc. as different leagues in the same sport, kinda like the different leagues in the NFL, or MLB. They simply have different ways to go about the same thing. GSL has a lot of mental preparation attached to it because the matches are so far apart and for the most part you know who you're facing long in advance. Proleague has a format where players will be able to focus on maps specifically and matchups they can be used as snipers in. Foreign tournaments require you to be awesome at every matchup at any given time, and to be able to play marathon gaming sessions. To say that any one of those additional skills necessary are less difficult than any of the others is ignorant.
My point is simply that it's disappointing to hear all the hate Stephano's getting for leaving Korea when the tournaments he was there for focused on a play style that he might not be as capable of adapting to. We have this idea that certain foreigners shouldn't have beaten certain koreans, or aren't as good as certain koreans, when the korean players are playing in foreign tournaments. It's simply that there are different styles and the players involved have different strengths and weaknesses not only in the play of the actual game, but also the preparation, and how they handle the individual tournament themselves.
The only things we can say about Stephano leaving Korea are what we've heard first hand. Him leaving is not foreigner laziness, it's him deciding to leave. Focusing on international tournaments doesn't make him a worse player than Koreans, it means that's what he's most comfortable with and where he has the best opportunity to make a living.
He got 3-0'ed at MLG and IEM too. It has nothing to do with tournament format. Most of his big wins were in tournaments with much weaker competition compared to the GSL or the other tournaments he didn't do well in.
You're judging his performance at MLG and IEM which were played on HotS, but he didn't play HotS because of...Code S and Proleague.
Along with all the other players who didn't play HotS because of GSL or PL who did much better than him.
On March 28 2013 00:36 GunSec wrote: he said on his latest stream that his next tournament was dreamhack so he is going to miss GSL code s 100 %, he has forfeited his spot for sure. Give the spot to Sortof or Scarlett!
Hell no, I hope GOM won't give spots to foreigners anymore.
This. I'm sick of charity seeds being given out to foreigners that go home after a month or two. Let the Koreans that actually deserve the spot have it.
Except for Scarlett please
Scarlet already refused one and is going to try the qualifiers instead.
Did she really? That is so fucking badass!
Could the holy trinity or foreigners really be Major, Naniwa and Scarlett? Could the universe really be such a just place? Is Karma real?
On March 28 2013 01:22 Noobity wrote: I've always thought of the GSL, Proleague, MLG, Dreamhack, etc. as different leagues in the same sport, kinda like the different leagues in the NFL, or MLB. They simply have different ways to go about the same thing. GSL has a lot of mental preparation attached to it because the matches are so far apart and for the most part you know who you're facing long in advance. Proleague has a format where players will be able to focus on maps specifically and matchups they can be used as snipers in. Foreign tournaments require you to be awesome at every matchup at any given time, and to be able to play marathon gaming sessions. To say that any one of those additional skills necessary are less difficult than any of the others is ignorant.
My point is simply that it's disappointing to hear all the hate Stephano's getting for leaving Korea when the tournaments he was there for focused on a play style that he might not be as capable of adapting to. We have this idea that certain foreigners shouldn't have beaten certain koreans, or aren't as good as certain koreans, when the korean players are playing in foreign tournaments. It's simply that there are different styles and the players involved have different strengths and weaknesses not only in the play of the actual game, but also the preparation, and how they handle the individual tournament themselves.
The only things we can say about Stephano leaving Korea are what we've heard first hand. Him leaving is not foreigner laziness, it's him deciding to leave. Focusing on international tournaments doesn't make him a worse player than Koreans, it means that's what he's most comfortable with and where he has the best opportunity to make a living.
He got 3-0'ed at MLG and IEM too. It has nothing to do with tournament format. Most of his big wins were in tournaments with much weaker competition compared to the GSL or the other tournaments he didn't do well in.
Well to be fair, he go 3-0ed by a Kespa player, Last, in one of the most stacked brackets I have ever seen. Last then went 2-3 vs Life, who won MLG. He didn't lose to some scrub, but a guy who almost beat the winner of the entire event.
This is the kind of logic that's so funny about Stephano fans (it also applies for Nerchio, Naniwa and any other of the current hyped foreigners too).
We constantly have to suffer this double think of how when they win (or better yet not actually playing vs Koreans at all as this is when their hype is biggest) they're Code S quality, amongst the absolute best in the world and can beat anyone and take down any tournament including Code S.
When they lose however it's okay because they lost to good player and there's no shame in that apparently.
The foreigner fanboy however never makes the connection that beating top players like Last, MVP, Yoda, Life and Flash is what makes you a top player and consistently losing to these level of players (like Stephano has for months and months now) means you're not a top player.
Stephano got absolutely smashed at IEM and MLG, no if's no but's he was destroyed by better players.
On March 28 2013 01:43 SjPhotoGrapher wrote: Good move for Stephano. Code A/S uses one of the worst tournament setups that I've ever seen.
Complete shit. The tournament setup might be complicated, but it's actually really good to make sure you have the best player winning and a good quality in the upper rounds.
I wouldn't be surprised if Stephano had decided to leave code S a long time ago, but didn't want to tell anybody until he was safely away from Korea lol.
On March 28 2013 01:22 Noobity wrote: I've always thought of the GSL, Proleague, MLG, Dreamhack, etc. as different leagues in the same sport, kinda like the different leagues in the NFL, or MLB. They simply have different ways to go about the same thing. GSL has a lot of mental preparation attached to it because the matches are so far apart and for the most part you know who you're facing long in advance. Proleague has a format where players will be able to focus on maps specifically and matchups they can be used as snipers in. Foreign tournaments require you to be awesome at every matchup at any given time, and to be able to play marathon gaming sessions. To say that any one of those additional skills necessary are less difficult than any of the others is ignorant.
My point is simply that it's disappointing to hear all the hate Stephano's getting for leaving Korea when the tournaments he was there for focused on a play style that he might not be as capable of adapting to. We have this idea that certain foreigners shouldn't have beaten certain koreans, or aren't as good as certain koreans, when the korean players are playing in foreign tournaments. It's simply that there are different styles and the players involved have different strengths and weaknesses not only in the play of the actual game, but also the preparation, and how they handle the individual tournament themselves.
The only things we can say about Stephano leaving Korea are what we've heard first hand. Him leaving is not foreigner laziness, it's him deciding to leave. Focusing on international tournaments doesn't make him a worse player than Koreans, it means that's what he's most comfortable with and where he has the best opportunity to make a living.
He got 3-0'ed at MLG and IEM too. It has nothing to do with tournament format. Most of his big wins were in tournaments with much weaker competition compared to the GSL or the other tournaments he didn't do well in.
I'm not sure what 2 tournament results show definitively, and a lot of his wins came off victories from players like Hero, MC, Alicia, Polt. Did they not do well in those tournaments because of the format, or were they simply worse than Stephano at the time?
On March 28 2013 01:22 Noobity wrote: I've always thought of the GSL, Proleague, MLG, Dreamhack, etc. as different leagues in the same sport, kinda like the different leagues in the NFL, or MLB. They simply have different ways to go about the same thing. GSL has a lot of mental preparation attached to it because the matches are so far apart and for the most part you know who you're facing long in advance. Proleague has a format where players will be able to focus on maps specifically and matchups they can be used as snipers in. Foreign tournaments require you to be awesome at every matchup at any given time, and to be able to play marathon gaming sessions. To say that any one of those additional skills necessary are less difficult than any of the others is ignorant.
My point is simply that it's disappointing to hear all the hate Stephano's getting for leaving Korea when the tournaments he was there for focused on a play style that he might not be as capable of adapting to. We have this idea that certain foreigners shouldn't have beaten certain koreans, or aren't as good as certain koreans, when the korean players are playing in foreign tournaments. It's simply that there are different styles and the players involved have different strengths and weaknesses not only in the play of the actual game, but also the preparation, and how they handle the individual tournament themselves.
The only things we can say about Stephano leaving Korea are what we've heard first hand. Him leaving is not foreigner laziness, it's him deciding to leave. Focusing on international tournaments doesn't make him a worse player than Koreans, it means that's what he's most comfortable with and where he has the best opportunity to make a living.
He got 3-0'ed at MLG and IEM too. It has nothing to do with tournament format. Most of his big wins were in tournaments with much weaker competition compared to the GSL or the other tournaments he didn't do well in.
Well to be fair, he go 3-0ed by a Kespa player, Last, in one of the most stacked brackets I have ever seen. Last then went 2-3 vs Life, who won MLG. He didn't lose to some scrub, but a guy who almost beat the winner of the entire event.
This is the kind of logic that's so funny about Stephano fans (it also applies for Nerchio, Naniwa and any other of the current hyped foreigners too).
We constantly have to suffer this double think of how when they win (or better yet not actually playing vs Koreans at all as this is when their hype is biggest) they're Code S quality, amongst the absolute best in the world and can beat anyone and take down any tournament including Code S.
When they lose however it's okay because they lost to good player and there's no shame in that apparently.
The foreigner fanboy however never makes the connection that beating top players like Last, MVP, Yoda, Life and Flash is what makes you a top player and consistently losing to these level of players (like Stephano has for months and months now) means you're not a top player.
Stephano got absolutely smashed at IEM and MLG, no if's no but's he was destroyed by better players.
Well I can say he did shitty and should have done better. That it is unacceptable to get beaten 3-0 and that is total crap. But you see, I am a Red Sox fan, so I know what slumps are. Unlike many fans in the SC2 scene, who are like weather vains and just band wagon to the next winning Korean player and call him a god of the game until he loses and then its on to the next one. I would say that one is not much better than the other.
On March 28 2013 00:36 GunSec wrote: he said on his latest stream that his next tournament was dreamhack so he is going to miss GSL code s 100 %, he has forfeited his spot for sure. Give the spot to Sortof or Scarlett!
Hell no, I hope GOM won't give spots to foreigners anymore.
This. I'm sick of charity seeds being given out to foreigners that go home after a month or two. Let the Koreans that actually deserve the spot have it.
Except for Scarlett please
Scarlet already refused one and is going to try the qualifiers instead.
Did she really? That is so fucking badass!
Could the holy trinity or foreigners really be Major, Naniwa and Scarlett? Could the universe really be such a just place? Is Karma real?
Jinro once declined a Code A seed and gained* huuuuuuge respect from his fans, he is a badass too :-0
On March 28 2013 00:12 mechengineer123 wrote: Good decision, gsl is too hard for most people.
Heh.
Well I guess at least he kind of proved himself useful in the team league, even if he failed miserably in Code S.
I'm not really surprised that he's leaving; he always seemed hesitant to go to Korea because there are such few tournaments (compared to the rest of the world) and because he doesn't like to practice as hard as the best (Korean) players.
So I guess he'll remain the top foreigner (for now) with all this achievements being in foreign tournaments. That's certainly fine, and he'll make more money that way. It's a pity he couldn't get near Naniwa's, HuK's, Jinro's, or IdrA's levels of accomplishment in the GSL though.
On March 28 2013 00:36 GunSec wrote: he said on his latest stream that his next tournament was dreamhack so he is going to miss GSL code s 100 %, he has forfeited his spot for sure. Give the spot to Sortof or Scarlett!
Hell no, I hope GOM won't give spots to foreigners anymore.
This. I'm sick of charity seeds being given out to foreigners that go home after a month or two. Let the Koreans that actually deserve the spot have it.
Except for Scarlett please
Scarlet already refused one and is going to try the qualifiers instead.
Did she really? That is so fucking badass!
Could the holy trinity or foreigners really be Major, Naniwa and Scarlett? Could the universe really be such a just place? Is Karma real?
Jinro once declined a Code A seed and gained* huuuuuuge respect from his fans, he is a badass too :-0
I remember his Code S ro4 run. That made him a bigger bad ass.
On March 28 2013 01:22 Noobity wrote: I've always thought of the GSL, Proleague, MLG, Dreamhack, etc. as different leagues in the same sport, kinda like the different leagues in the NFL, or MLB. They simply have different ways to go about the same thing. GSL has a lot of mental preparation attached to it because the matches are so far apart and for the most part you know who you're facing long in advance. Proleague has a format where players will be able to focus on maps specifically and matchups they can be used as snipers in. Foreign tournaments require you to be awesome at every matchup at any given time, and to be able to play marathon gaming sessions. To say that any one of those additional skills necessary are less difficult than any of the others is ignorant.
My point is simply that it's disappointing to hear all the hate Stephano's getting for leaving Korea when the tournaments he was there for focused on a play style that he might not be as capable of adapting to. We have this idea that certain foreigners shouldn't have beaten certain koreans, or aren't as good as certain koreans, when the korean players are playing in foreign tournaments. It's simply that there are different styles and the players involved have different strengths and weaknesses not only in the play of the actual game, but also the preparation, and how they handle the individual tournament themselves.
The only things we can say about Stephano leaving Korea are what we've heard first hand. Him leaving is not foreigner laziness, it's him deciding to leave. Focusing on international tournaments doesn't make him a worse player than Koreans, it means that's what he's most comfortable with and where he has the best opportunity to make a living.
He got 3-0'ed at MLG and IEM too. It has nothing to do with tournament format. Most of his big wins were in tournaments with much weaker competition compared to the GSL or the other tournaments he didn't do well in.
Well to be fair, he go 3-0ed by a Kespa player, Last, in one of the most stacked brackets I have ever seen. Last then went 2-3 vs Life, who won MLG. He didn't lose to some scrub, but a guy who almost beat the winner of the entire event.
This is the kind of logic that's so funny about Stephano fans (it also applies for Nerchio, Naniwa and any other of the current hyped foreigners too).
We constantly have to suffer this double think of how when they win (or better yet not actually playing vs Koreans at all as this is when their hype is biggest) they're Code S quality, amongst the absolute best in the world and can beat anyone and take down any tournament including Code S.
When they lose however it's okay because they lost to good player and there's no shame in that apparently.
The foreigner fanboy however never makes the connection that beating top players like Last, MVP, Yoda, Life and Flash is what makes you a top player and consistently losing to these level of players (like Stephano has for months and months now) means you're not a top player.
Stephano got absolutely smashed at IEM and MLG, no if's no but's he was destroyed by better players.
Well I can say he did shitty and should have done better. That it is unacceptable to get beaten 3-0 and that is total crap. But you see, I am a Red Sox fan, so I know what slumps are. Unlike many fans in the SC2 scene, who are like weather vains and just band wagon to the next winning Korean player and call him a god of the game until he loses and then its on to the next one. I would say that one is not much better than the other.
What's wrong with that? It's basically how Sc2 has worked at the pro level since it's inception.
Beta/Late 2010 - Fruitdealer/Tester era. Early - Mid 2011 - Mvp/MC/Nestea era Late 2011 - Mvp/MMA/DRG era Early - Mid 2012 - MKP/DRG era Mid - Late 2012 - Life/Parting/Rain/Leenock/Patch Zerg era
Are you denying that players in Sc2 tend to be at the top for about 6 months maximum and then fall off still able to win tournament but never consistently stringing together GSL/MLG wins like Mvp, DRG and Life were able to do at their peaks?
On March 28 2013 00:22 DtorR wrote: Is there more money involved playing on international tournaments? Even though playing in GSL Code S is an honour but I feel that to win it is not worth the effort. The competition in the international level is a little easier than in Korea.
code S has more prize money but it is way easier to get money out of international tournements.
People keep saying this, but it's short-term thinking that may not be relevant anymore. It may not have even been true when IdrA made the decision to leave, because even then Koreans were beginning to enter foreign tournaments.
You're giving up skill ceiling to get "easier" competition, except Koreans, who are still benefiting from the higher skill ceiling that their training provides, are also a part of those competitions now. You'll get a few thousand here or there from smaller tournaments like DH Bucharest or HSC, but all of the major tournaments have gone to Koreans.
If you were to calculate the money earned from foreign tournaments by country in 2012-13, 90%+ would probably go to Koreans. So I'm not sure that the payout from going home is really that much better than being a GSL Code S player, since Code S players are in all of the important American and European tournaments.
People say you have to train like the koreans to have a chance to beat the koreans, but I don't think the foreigners who move there have the opportunity to actually train like them. They can certainly play all day on the korean ladder but they miss out on all the custom practice and communication that happens between the korean players, which is what I think makes them that much better than us.
We need to make Stockholm the european mecca of e-sports and have all our pros play there and train and talk strategy together :D
Seems he's not to happy there in the team house, and he misses France/home alot. Good choice you either do something 100% or you don't do it at all. If he's going to play code S with a bad mindset and then bump out of code S, all he has is foreigners with the "i told you so" comments on his neck.
On March 28 2013 01:22 Noobity wrote: I've always thought of the GSL, Proleague, MLG, Dreamhack, etc. as different leagues in the same sport, kinda like the different leagues in the NFL, or MLB. They simply have different ways to go about the same thing. GSL has a lot of mental preparation attached to it because the matches are so far apart and for the most part you know who you're facing long in advance. Proleague has a format where players will be able to focus on maps specifically and matchups they can be used as snipers in. Foreign tournaments require you to be awesome at every matchup at any given time, and to be able to play marathon gaming sessions. To say that any one of those additional skills necessary are less difficult than any of the others is ignorant.
My point is simply that it's disappointing to hear all the hate Stephano's getting for leaving Korea when the tournaments he was there for focused on a play style that he might not be as capable of adapting to. We have this idea that certain foreigners shouldn't have beaten certain koreans, or aren't as good as certain koreans, when the korean players are playing in foreign tournaments. It's simply that there are different styles and the players involved have different strengths and weaknesses not only in the play of the actual game, but also the preparation, and how they handle the individual tournament themselves.
The only things we can say about Stephano leaving Korea are what we've heard first hand. Him leaving is not foreigner laziness, it's him deciding to leave. Focusing on international tournaments doesn't make him a worse player than Koreans, it means that's what he's most comfortable with and where he has the best opportunity to make a living.
He got 3-0'ed at MLG and IEM too. It has nothing to do with tournament format. Most of his big wins were in tournaments with much weaker competition compared to the GSL or the other tournaments he didn't do well in.
Well to be fair, he go 3-0ed by a Kespa player, Last, in one of the most stacked brackets I have ever seen. Last then went 2-3 vs Life, who won MLG. He didn't lose to some scrub, but a guy who almost beat the winner of the entire event.
This is the kind of logic that's so funny about Stephano fans (it also applies for Nerchio, Naniwa and any other of the current hyped foreigners too).
We constantly have to suffer this double think of how when they win (or better yet not actually playing vs Koreans at all as this is when their hype is biggest) they're Code S quality, amongst the absolute best in the world and can beat anyone and take down any tournament including Code S.
When they lose however it's okay because they lost to good player and there's no shame in that apparently.
The foreigner fanboy however never makes the connection that beating top players like Last, MVP, Yoda, Life and Flash is what makes you a top player and consistently losing to these level of players (like Stephano has for months and months now) means you're not a top player.
Stephano got absolutely smashed at IEM and MLG, no if's no but's he was destroyed by better players.
Well I can say he did shitty and should have done better. That it is unacceptable to get beaten 3-0 and that is total crap. But you see, I am a Red Sox fan, so I know what slumps are. Unlike many fans in the SC2 scene, who are like weather vains and just band wagon to the next winning Korean player and call him a god of the game until he loses and then its on to the next one. I would say that one is not much better than the other.
What's wrong with that? It's basically how Sc2 has worked at the pro level since it's inception.
Beta/Late 2010 - Fruitdealer/Tester era. Early - Mid 2011 - Mvp/MC/Nestea era Late 2011 - Mvp/MMA/DRG era Early - Mid 2012 - MKP/DRG era Mid - Late 2012 - Life/Parting/Rain/Leenock/Patch Zerg era
Are you denying that players in Sc2 tend to be at the top for about 6 months maximum and then fall off still able to win tournament but never consistently stringing together GSL/MLG wins like Mvp, DRG and Life were able to do at their peaks?
Well in the Boston area, we have words for people like that, but I won't use it on TL. But it's called being a fair weather fan. They cheer when their team is winning, but disappear when they aren't. Real fan cheer when the team is playing. I still cheer for MC and willl until he quits. Same with MKP and the members of EG. I am not a fair weather fan, I even cheer when they lose.
I guess he left because he wasnt satisfied with the social aspect of living in South Korea. I can imagine it must be pretty tough culture shock to come from France to Korea. U fully understand his decision especially if you keep in mind what he said about their head coach over there.
On March 28 2013 01:22 Noobity wrote: I've always thought of the GSL, Proleague, MLG, Dreamhack, etc. as different leagues in the same sport, kinda like the different leagues in the NFL, or MLB. They simply have different ways to go about the same thing. GSL has a lot of mental preparation attached to it because the matches are so far apart and for the most part you know who you're facing long in advance. Proleague has a format where players will be able to focus on maps specifically and matchups they can be used as snipers in. Foreign tournaments require you to be awesome at every matchup at any given time, and to be able to play marathon gaming sessions. To say that any one of those additional skills necessary are less difficult than any of the others is ignorant.
My point is simply that it's disappointing to hear all the hate Stephano's getting for leaving Korea when the tournaments he was there for focused on a play style that he might not be as capable of adapting to. We have this idea that certain foreigners shouldn't have beaten certain koreans, or aren't as good as certain koreans, when the korean players are playing in foreign tournaments. It's simply that there are different styles and the players involved have different strengths and weaknesses not only in the play of the actual game, but also the preparation, and how they handle the individual tournament themselves.
The only things we can say about Stephano leaving Korea are what we've heard first hand. Him leaving is not foreigner laziness, it's him deciding to leave. Focusing on international tournaments doesn't make him a worse player than Koreans, it means that's what he's most comfortable with and where he has the best opportunity to make a living.
He got 3-0'ed at MLG and IEM too. It has nothing to do with tournament format. Most of his big wins were in tournaments with much weaker competition compared to the GSL or the other tournaments he didn't do well in.
Well to be fair, he go 3-0ed by a Kespa player, Last, in one of the most stacked brackets I have ever seen. Last then went 2-3 vs Life, who won MLG. He didn't lose to some scrub, but a guy who almost beat the winner of the entire event.
This is the kind of logic that's so funny about Stephano fans (it also applies for Nerchio, Naniwa and any other of the current hyped foreigners too).
We constantly have to suffer this double think of how when they win (or better yet not actually playing vs Koreans at all as this is when their hype is biggest) they're Code S quality, amongst the absolute best in the world and can beat anyone and take down any tournament including Code S.
When they lose however it's okay because they lost to good player and there's no shame in that apparently.
The foreigner fanboy however never makes the connection that beating top players like Last, MVP, Yoda, Life and Flash is what makes you a top player and consistently losing to these level of players (like Stephano has for months and months now) means you're not a top player.
Stephano got absolutely smashed at IEM and MLG, no if's no but's he was destroyed by better players.
Well I can say he did shitty and should have done better. That it is unacceptable to get beaten 3-0 and that is total crap. But you see, I am a Red Sox fan, so I know what slumps are. Unlike many fans in the SC2 scene, who are like weather vains and just band wagon to the next winning Korean player and call him a god of the game until he loses and then its on to the next one. I would say that one is not much better than the other.
What's wrong with that? It's basically how Sc2 has worked at the pro level since it's inception.
Beta/Late 2010 - Fruitdealer/Tester era. Early - Mid 2011 - Mvp/MC/Nestea era Late 2011 - Mvp/MMA/DRG era Early - Mid 2012 - MKP/DRG era Mid - Late 2012 - Life/Parting/Rain/Leenock/Patch Zerg era
Are you denying that players in Sc2 tend to be at the top for about 6 months maximum and then fall off still able to win tournament but never consistently stringing together GSL/MLG wins like Mvp, DRG and Life were able to do at their peaks?
Well in the Boston area, we have words for people like that, but I won't use it on TL. But it's called being a fair weather fan. They cheer when their team is winning, but disappear when they aren't. Real fan cheer when the team is playing. I still cheer for MC and willl until he quits. Same with MKP and the members of EG. I am not a fair weather fan, I even cheer when they lose.
Most Sc2 fans are a fan of the game more than players so we just like whoever has cool play and shows good games.
On March 28 2013 02:02 Belha wrote: Too bad, I really wanted to see a foreigner in code S again.
I guess this confirms Naniwa as the best foreigner. At least after the Z patch-hammer.
Euh ? where did you get this logic from ? Did i miss Naniwa killing koreans left and right ?
No foreigner have been killing Korean's left and right in Hots. Calling anyone the best foreigner at this point is a pure crap shoot based on past performances. Pointless.
Everyone has to choose how one wants to live ones life. I am not against criticizing Stephano's decisions. I am however against any attempt to denigrate his work or person.
Its understandable especially money wise which always seem to be his biggest motivation. Though he got back into code S I don't personally think he would've got that far but I suppose it was possible
On March 28 2013 02:09 TheLunatic wrote: I agree completely with the above poster, love of the game surpasses any love for the players, they come, they go, but the game will live forever!
this is why we need new blood! I honestly think that Stephano is on decline and is going to retire soon if he just keeps losing. There must be some natural talented kid out there that can fill his place and step up as the foreigners hope but I doubt that will happen soon.
On March 28 2013 01:22 Noobity wrote: I've always thought of the GSL, Proleague, MLG, Dreamhack, etc. as different leagues in the same sport, kinda like the different leagues in the NFL, or MLB. They simply have different ways to go about the same thing. GSL has a lot of mental preparation attached to it because the matches are so far apart and for the most part you know who you're facing long in advance. Proleague has a format where players will be able to focus on maps specifically and matchups they can be used as snipers in. Foreign tournaments require you to be awesome at every matchup at any given time, and to be able to play marathon gaming sessions. To say that any one of those additional skills necessary are less difficult than any of the others is ignorant.
My point is simply that it's disappointing to hear all the hate Stephano's getting for leaving Korea when the tournaments he was there for focused on a play style that he might not be as capable of adapting to. We have this idea that certain foreigners shouldn't have beaten certain koreans, or aren't as good as certain koreans, when the korean players are playing in foreign tournaments. It's simply that there are different styles and the players involved have different strengths and weaknesses not only in the play of the actual game, but also the preparation, and how they handle the individual tournament themselves.
The only things we can say about Stephano leaving Korea are what we've heard first hand. Him leaving is not foreigner laziness, it's him deciding to leave. Focusing on international tournaments doesn't make him a worse player than Koreans, it means that's what he's most comfortable with and where he has the best opportunity to make a living.
He got 3-0'ed at MLG and IEM too. It has nothing to do with tournament format. Most of his big wins were in tournaments with much weaker competition compared to the GSL or the other tournaments he didn't do well in.
Well to be fair, he go 3-0ed by a Kespa player, Last, in one of the most stacked brackets I have ever seen. Last then went 2-3 vs Life, who won MLG. He didn't lose to some scrub, but a guy who almost beat the winner of the entire event.
This is the kind of logic that's so funny about Stephano fans (it also applies for Nerchio, Naniwa and any other of the current hyped foreigners too).
We constantly have to suffer this double think of how when they win (or better yet not actually playing vs Koreans at all as this is when their hype is biggest) they're Code S quality, amongst the absolute best in the world and can beat anyone and take down any tournament including Code S.
When they lose however it's okay because they lost to good player and there's no shame in that apparently.
The foreigner fanboy however never makes the connection that beating top players like Last, MVP, Yoda, Life and Flash is what makes you a top player and consistently losing to these level of players (like Stephano has for months and months now) means you're not a top player.
Stephano got absolutely smashed at IEM and MLG, no if's no but's he was destroyed by better players.
Well I can say he did shitty and should have done better. That it is unacceptable to get beaten 3-0 and that is total crap. But you see, I am a Red Sox fan, so I know what slumps are. Unlike many fans in the SC2 scene, who are like weather vains and just band wagon to the next winning Korean player and call him a god of the game until he loses and then its on to the next one. I would say that one is not much better than the other.
What's wrong with that? It's basically how Sc2 has worked at the pro level since it's inception.
Beta/Late 2010 - Fruitdealer/Tester era. Early - Mid 2011 - Mvp/MC/Nestea era Late 2011 - Mvp/MMA/DRG era Early - Mid 2012 - MKP/DRG era Mid - Late 2012 - Life/Parting/Rain/Leenock/Patch Zerg era
Are you denying that players in Sc2 tend to be at the top for about 6 months maximum and then fall off still able to win tournament but never consistently stringing together GSL/MLG wins like Mvp, DRG and Life were able to do at their peaks?
Well in the Boston area, we have words for people like that, but I won't use it on TL. But it's called being a fair weather fan. They cheer when their team is winning, but disappear when they aren't. Real fan cheer when the team is playing. I still cheer for MC and willl until he quits. Same with MKP and the members of EG. I am not a fair weather fan, I even cheer when they lose.
Most Sc2 fans are a fan of the game more than players so we just like whoever has cool play and shows good games.
That is what a fair weather fan is, they don't care who is playing and just cheer for the winner because it is easy. They like to watch the winner and can’t deal with the disappointment, or the idea that they might have to wait to see their favorite player be awesome. Fans like myself and my father who waited 20 years or (nearly 60 in my fathers case) for the Sox to win a world series have little patience for fair weather fans.
On March 28 2013 00:22 DtorR wrote: Is there more money involved playing on international tournaments? Even though playing in GSL Code S is an honour but I feel that to win it is not worth the effort. The competition in the international level is a little easier than in Korea.
code S has more prize money but it is way easier to get money out of international tournements.
People keep saying this, but it's short-term thinking that may not be relevant anymore. It may not have even been true when IdrA made the decision to leave, because even then Koreans were beginning to enter foreign tournaments.
You're giving up skill ceiling to get "easier" competition, except Koreans, who are still benefiting from the higher skill ceiling that their training provides, are also a part of those competitions now. You'll get a few thousand here or there from smaller tournaments like DH Bucharest or HSC, but all of the major tournaments have gone to Koreans.
If you were to calculate the money earned from foreign tournaments by country in 2012-13, 90%+ would probably go to Koreans. So I'm not sure that the payout from going home is really that much better than being a GSL Code S player, since Code S players are in all of the important American and European tournaments.
This is disappointing. Foreigners can't keep up with Koreans and then when they take the steps needed to be at a Korean level (training like Koreans) they say the coach is mean and it is too hard. I really hope this is just to Stephano not having the willpower to follow his coaches rules and not because Blizzard is going to region lock:/
On March 28 2013 02:18 HappyTimePANDA wrote: This is disappointing. Foreigners can't keep up with Koreans and then when they take the steps needed to be at a Korean level (training like Koreans) they say the coach is mean and it is too hard. I really hope this is just to Stephano not having the willpower to follow his coaches rules and not because Blizzard is going to region lock:/
Well Koreans are living near their families, in their home country. Participating to GSL is way easier for them than for a foreigner... The foreigner has to make much more sacrifices than koreans to be able to play in GSL.
On March 28 2013 02:18 dUTtrOACh wrote: Simple solution: Give his spot to someone who wants it.
*and deserves it*, which makes it a very hard argument to settle... (whether or not these free seeds should even exist in the first place, and then how is someone more prepared for a long term tournament like the GSL by winning marathon tournaments like MLG or Dreamhack).
On March 28 2013 00:36 GunSec wrote: he said on his latest stream that his next tournament was dreamhack so he is going to miss GSL code s 100 %, he has forfeited his spot for sure. Give the spot to Sortof or Scarlett!
Hell no, I hope GOM won't give spots to foreigners anymore.
This. I'm sick of charity seeds being given out to foreigners that go home after a month or two. Let the Koreans that actually deserve the spot have it.
On March 28 2013 01:22 Noobity wrote: I've always thought of the GSL, Proleague, MLG, Dreamhack, etc. as different leagues in the same sport, kinda like the different leagues in the NFL, or MLB. They simply have different ways to go about the same thing. GSL has a lot of mental preparation attached to it because the matches are so far apart and for the most part you know who you're facing long in advance. Proleague has a format where players will be able to focus on maps specifically and matchups they can be used as snipers in. Foreign tournaments require you to be awesome at every matchup at any given time, and to be able to play marathon gaming sessions. To say that any one of those additional skills necessary are less difficult than any of the others is ignorant.
My point is simply that it's disappointing to hear all the hate Stephano's getting for leaving Korea when the tournaments he was there for focused on a play style that he might not be as capable of adapting to. We have this idea that certain foreigners shouldn't have beaten certain koreans, or aren't as good as certain koreans, when the korean players are playing in foreign tournaments. It's simply that there are different styles and the players involved have different strengths and weaknesses not only in the play of the actual game, but also the preparation, and how they handle the individual tournament themselves.
The only things we can say about Stephano leaving Korea are what we've heard first hand. Him leaving is not foreigner laziness, it's him deciding to leave. Focusing on international tournaments doesn't make him a worse player than Koreans, it means that's what he's most comfortable with and where he has the best opportunity to make a living.
He got 3-0'ed at MLG and IEM too. It has nothing to do with tournament format. Most of his big wins were in tournaments with much weaker competition compared to the GSL or the other tournaments he didn't do well in.
Well to be fair, he go 3-0ed by a Kespa player, Last, in one of the most stacked brackets I have ever seen. Last then went 2-3 vs Life, who won MLG. He didn't lose to some scrub, but a guy who almost beat the winner of the entire event.
This is the kind of logic that's so funny about Stephano fans (it also applies for Nerchio, Naniwa and any other of the current hyped foreigners too).
We constantly have to suffer this double think of how when they win (or better yet not actually playing vs Koreans at all as this is when their hype is biggest) they're Code S quality, amongst the absolute best in the world and can beat anyone and take down any tournament including Code S.
When they lose however it's okay because they lost to good player and there's no shame in that apparently.
The foreigner fanboy however never makes the connection that beating top players like Last, MVP, Yoda, Life and Flash is what makes you a top player and consistently losing to these level of players (like Stephano has for months and months now) means you're not a top player.
Stephano got absolutely smashed at IEM and MLG, no if's no but's he was destroyed by better players.
Well I can say he did shitty and should have done better. That it is unacceptable to get beaten 3-0 and that is total crap. But you see, I am a Red Sox fan, so I know what slumps are. Unlike many fans in the SC2 scene, who are like weather vains and just band wagon to the next winning Korean player and call him a god of the game until he loses and then its on to the next one. I would say that one is not much better than the other.
What's wrong with that? It's basically how Sc2 has worked at the pro level since it's inception.
Beta/Late 2010 - Fruitdealer/Tester era. Early - Mid 2011 - Mvp/MC/Nestea era Late 2011 - Mvp/MMA/DRG era Early - Mid 2012 - MKP/DRG era Mid - Late 2012 - Life/Parting/Rain/Leenock/Patch Zerg era
Are you denying that players in Sc2 tend to be at the top for about 6 months maximum and then fall off still able to win tournament but never consistently stringing together GSL/MLG wins like Mvp, DRG and Life were able to do at their peaks?
Well in the Boston area, we have words for people like that, but I won't use it on TL. But it's called being a fair weather fan. They cheer when their team is winning, but disappear when they aren't. Real fan cheer when the team is playing. I still cheer for MC and willl until he quits. Same with MKP and the members of EG. I am not a fair weather fan, I even cheer when they lose.
Most Sc2 fans are a fan of the game more than players so we just like whoever has cool play and shows good games.
That is what a fair weather fan is, they don't care who is playing and just cheer for the winner because it is easy. They like to watch the winner and can’t deal with the disappointment, or the idea that they might have to wait to see their favorite player be awesome. Fans like myself and my father who waited 20 years or (nearly 60 in my fathers case) for the Sox to win a world series have little patience for fair weather fans.
That's great but ... careface ? Sports = entertainment People should be free to choice any way and form they "follow" the game or a team all they want.
On March 28 2013 02:18 dUTtrOACh wrote: Simple solution: Give his spot to someone who wants it.
*and deserves it*, which makes it a very hard argument to settle... (whether or not these free seeds should even exist in the first place, and then how is someone more prepared for a long term tournament like the GSL by winning marathon tournaments like MLG or Dreamhack).
Like MLG making special sub brackets for ESF and Kespa players and then inviting the players to the bracket? Or MGL creating a separate championship tournament(proleague vs the world) that feeds directly into the championship bracket, so the Kespa players can bypass the open bracket?
At least GSL is honest about it’s seeds and just calls them seeds.
On March 28 2013 01:22 Noobity wrote: I've always thought of the GSL, Proleague, MLG, Dreamhack, etc. as different leagues in the same sport, kinda like the different leagues in the NFL, or MLB. They simply have different ways to go about the same thing. GSL has a lot of mental preparation attached to it because the matches are so far apart and for the most part you know who you're facing long in advance. Proleague has a format where players will be able to focus on maps specifically and matchups they can be used as snipers in. Foreign tournaments require you to be awesome at every matchup at any given time, and to be able to play marathon gaming sessions. To say that any one of those additional skills necessary are less difficult than any of the others is ignorant.
My point is simply that it's disappointing to hear all the hate Stephano's getting for leaving Korea when the tournaments he was there for focused on a play style that he might not be as capable of adapting to. We have this idea that certain foreigners shouldn't have beaten certain koreans, or aren't as good as certain koreans, when the korean players are playing in foreign tournaments. It's simply that there are different styles and the players involved have different strengths and weaknesses not only in the play of the actual game, but also the preparation, and how they handle the individual tournament themselves.
The only things we can say about Stephano leaving Korea are what we've heard first hand. Him leaving is not foreigner laziness, it's him deciding to leave. Focusing on international tournaments doesn't make him a worse player than Koreans, it means that's what he's most comfortable with and where he has the best opportunity to make a living.
He got 3-0'ed at MLG and IEM too. It has nothing to do with tournament format. Most of his big wins were in tournaments with much weaker competition compared to the GSL or the other tournaments he didn't do well in.
Well to be fair, he go 3-0ed by a Kespa player, Last, in one of the most stacked brackets I have ever seen. Last then went 2-3 vs Life, who won MLG. He didn't lose to some scrub, but a guy who almost beat the winner of the entire event.
This is the kind of logic that's so funny about Stephano fans (it also applies for Nerchio, Naniwa and any other of the current hyped foreigners too).
We constantly have to suffer this double think of how when they win (or better yet not actually playing vs Koreans at all as this is when their hype is biggest) they're Code S quality, amongst the absolute best in the world and can beat anyone and take down any tournament including Code S.
When they lose however it's okay because they lost to good player and there's no shame in that apparently.
The foreigner fanboy however never makes the connection that beating top players like Last, MVP, Yoda, Life and Flash is what makes you a top player and consistently losing to these level of players (like Stephano has for months and months now) means you're not a top player.
Stephano got absolutely smashed at IEM and MLG, no if's no but's he was destroyed by better players.
Well I can say he did shitty and should have done better. That it is unacceptable to get beaten 3-0 and that is total crap. But you see, I am a Red Sox fan, so I know what slumps are. Unlike many fans in the SC2 scene, who are like weather vains and just band wagon to the next winning Korean player and call him a god of the game until he loses and then its on to the next one. I would say that one is not much better than the other.
What's wrong with that? It's basically how Sc2 has worked at the pro level since it's inception.
Beta/Late 2010 - Fruitdealer/Tester era. Early - Mid 2011 - Mvp/MC/Nestea era Late 2011 - Mvp/MMA/DRG era Early - Mid 2012 - MKP/DRG era Mid - Late 2012 - Life/Parting/Rain/Leenock/Patch Zerg era
Are you denying that players in Sc2 tend to be at the top for about 6 months maximum and then fall off still able to win tournament but never consistently stringing together GSL/MLG wins like Mvp, DRG and Life were able to do at their peaks?
Mvp was still relevant in 2012. He won a GSL and placed second for the next...
On March 28 2013 01:22 Noobity wrote: I've always thought of the GSL, Proleague, MLG, Dreamhack, etc. as different leagues in the same sport, kinda like the different leagues in the NFL, or MLB. They simply have different ways to go about the same thing. GSL has a lot of mental preparation attached to it because the matches are so far apart and for the most part you know who you're facing long in advance. Proleague has a format where players will be able to focus on maps specifically and matchups they can be used as snipers in. Foreign tournaments require you to be awesome at every matchup at any given time, and to be able to play marathon gaming sessions. To say that any one of those additional skills necessary are less difficult than any of the others is ignorant.
My point is simply that it's disappointing to hear all the hate Stephano's getting for leaving Korea when the tournaments he was there for focused on a play style that he might not be as capable of adapting to. We have this idea that certain foreigners shouldn't have beaten certain koreans, or aren't as good as certain koreans, when the korean players are playing in foreign tournaments. It's simply that there are different styles and the players involved have different strengths and weaknesses not only in the play of the actual game, but also the preparation, and how they handle the individual tournament themselves.
The only things we can say about Stephano leaving Korea are what we've heard first hand. Him leaving is not foreigner laziness, it's him deciding to leave. Focusing on international tournaments doesn't make him a worse player than Koreans, it means that's what he's most comfortable with and where he has the best opportunity to make a living.
He got 3-0'ed at MLG and IEM too. It has nothing to do with tournament format. Most of his big wins were in tournaments with much weaker competition compared to the GSL or the other tournaments he didn't do well in.
Well to be fair, he go 3-0ed by a Kespa player, Last, in one of the most stacked brackets I have ever seen. Last then went 2-3 vs Life, who won MLG. He didn't lose to some scrub, but a guy who almost beat the winner of the entire event.
This is the kind of logic that's so funny about Stephano fans (it also applies for Nerchio, Naniwa and any other of the current hyped foreigners too).
We constantly have to suffer this double think of how when they win (or better yet not actually playing vs Koreans at all as this is when their hype is biggest) they're Code S quality, amongst the absolute best in the world and can beat anyone and take down any tournament including Code S.
When they lose however it's okay because they lost to good player and there's no shame in that apparently.
The foreigner fanboy however never makes the connection that beating top players like Last, MVP, Yoda, Life and Flash is what makes you a top player and consistently losing to these level of players (like Stephano has for months and months now) means you're not a top player.
Stephano got absolutely smashed at IEM and MLG, no if's no but's he was destroyed by better players.
Well I can say he did shitty and should have done better. That it is unacceptable to get beaten 3-0 and that is total crap. But you see, I am a Red Sox fan, so I know what slumps are. Unlike many fans in the SC2 scene, who are like weather vains and just band wagon to the next winning Korean player and call him a god of the game until he loses and then its on to the next one. I would say that one is not much better than the other.
What's wrong with that? It's basically how Sc2 has worked at the pro level since it's inception.
Beta/Late 2010 - Fruitdealer/Tester era. Early - Mid 2011 - Mvp/MC/Nestea era Late 2011 - Mvp/MMA/DRG era Early - Mid 2012 - MKP/DRG era Mid - Late 2012 - Life/Parting/Rain/Leenock/Patch Zerg era
Are you denying that players in Sc2 tend to be at the top for about 6 months maximum and then fall off still able to win tournament but never consistently stringing together GSL/MLG wins like Mvp, DRG and Life were able to do at their peaks?
Well in the Boston area, we have words for people like that, but I won't use it on TL. But it's called being a fair weather fan. They cheer when their team is winning, but disappear when they aren't. Real fan cheer when the team is playing. I still cheer for MC and willl until he quits. Same with MKP and the members of EG. I am not a fair weather fan, I even cheer when they lose.
Most Sc2 fans are a fan of the game more than players so we just like whoever has cool play and shows good games.
That is what a fair weather fan is, they don't care who is playing and just cheer for the winner because it is easy. They like to watch the winner and can’t deal with the disappointment, or the idea that they might have to wait to see their favorite player be awesome. Fans like myself and my father who waited 20 years or (nearly 60 in my fathers case) for the Sox to win a world series have little patience for fair weather fans.
That's great but ... careface ? Sports = entertainment People should be free to choice any way and form they "follow" the game or a team all they want.
But then making fun people who cheer for these players, claiming they are "fan boy" pretty much goes against what you just said there. Or did you see what started this argument in the first place?
He said in numerous interviews that he doesn't like living the typical progamer's life when it comes down to strict practice schedule. So why should he dedicate himself to a thing when he's never going to be happy in the process of doing so? If you devote yourself to something and in your heart you know, it's never gonna work out, it won't work out.
So I totally get Stephano's decision. He's the type of player who's in the scene/game for a good time plus he's making a very good living out of it. Why give that up?
In conclusion one might say: he's not a professional and well, if you compare his work ethic with the Korean "standard", frankly speaking, he isn't.
On March 28 2013 02:18 HappyTimePANDA wrote: This is disappointing. Foreigners can't keep up with Koreans and then when they take the steps needed to be at a Korean level (training like Koreans) they say the coach is mean and it is too hard. I really hope this is just to Stephano not having the willpower to follow his coaches rules and not because Blizzard is going to region lock:/
Well Koreans are living near their families, in their home country. Participating to GSL is way easier for them than for a foreigner... The foreigner has to make much more sacrifices than koreans to be able to play in GSL.
I doubt the Koreans see their families much either. They don't all live near the training houses. And sacrifice is needed to be at an elite level. People have to move from their families all the time for sports. It's just disappointing that one of the only foreigners that showed a chance of playing at a Korean level gives up. I don't mind really since Koreans are the best to watch but since these whispers of region locking coming , it has me worried since Stephano giving up just reinforces that foreigners have no chance and we will be left with mostly sublevel competitions with no Koreans besides gsl and proleague
On March 28 2013 02:18 dUTtrOACh wrote: Simple solution: Give his spot to someone who wants it.
*and deserves it*, which makes it a very hard argument to settle... (whether or not these free seeds should even exist in the first place, and then how is someone more prepared for a long term tournament like the GSL by winning marathon tournaments like MLG or Dreamhack).
Like MLG making special sub brackets for ESF and Kespa players and then inviting the players to the bracket? Or MGL creating a separate championship tournament(proleague vs the world) that feeds directly into the championship bracket, so the Kespa players can bypass the open bracket?
At least GSL is honest about it’s seeds and just calls them seeds.
I'm not advocating the ways that MLG (or any other tournament) invites players, but pointing out that everyone is wrong doesn't make GSL right. The lesser of the two evils is still evil, especially when they could organize the tournament without invitations. But partnerships and publicity sometimes override the need to have the best players in every single slot, so I understand the reasons for giving out seeds. I'm not surprised.
On March 28 2013 01:22 Noobity wrote: I've always thought of the GSL, Proleague, MLG, Dreamhack, etc. as different leagues in the same sport, kinda like the different leagues in the NFL, or MLB. They simply have different ways to go about the same thing. GSL has a lot of mental preparation attached to it because the matches are so far apart and for the most part you know who you're facing long in advance. Proleague has a format where players will be able to focus on maps specifically and matchups they can be used as snipers in. Foreign tournaments require you to be awesome at every matchup at any given time, and to be able to play marathon gaming sessions. To say that any one of those additional skills necessary are less difficult than any of the others is ignorant.
My point is simply that it's disappointing to hear all the hate Stephano's getting for leaving Korea when the tournaments he was there for focused on a play style that he might not be as capable of adapting to. We have this idea that certain foreigners shouldn't have beaten certain koreans, or aren't as good as certain koreans, when the korean players are playing in foreign tournaments. It's simply that there are different styles and the players involved have different strengths and weaknesses not only in the play of the actual game, but also the preparation, and how they handle the individual tournament themselves.
The only things we can say about Stephano leaving Korea are what we've heard first hand. Him leaving is not foreigner laziness, it's him deciding to leave. Focusing on international tournaments doesn't make him a worse player than Koreans, it means that's what he's most comfortable with and where he has the best opportunity to make a living.
He got 3-0'ed at MLG and IEM too. It has nothing to do with tournament format. Most of his big wins were in tournaments with much weaker competition compared to the GSL or the other tournaments he didn't do well in.
Well to be fair, he go 3-0ed by a Kespa player, Last, in one of the most stacked brackets I have ever seen. Last then went 2-3 vs Life, who won MLG. He didn't lose to some scrub, but a guy who almost beat the winner of the entire event.
This is the kind of logic that's so funny about Stephano fans (it also applies for Nerchio, Naniwa and any other of the current hyped foreigners too).
We constantly have to suffer this double think of how when they win (or better yet not actually playing vs Koreans at all as this is when their hype is biggest) they're Code S quality, amongst the absolute best in the world and can beat anyone and take down any tournament including Code S.
When they lose however it's okay because they lost to good player and there's no shame in that apparently.
The foreigner fanboy however never makes the connection that beating top players like Last, MVP, Yoda, Life and Flash is what makes you a top player and consistently losing to these level of players (like Stephano has for months and months now) means you're not a top player.
Stephano got absolutely smashed at IEM and MLG, no if's no but's he was destroyed by better players.
Well I can say he did shitty and should have done better. That it is unacceptable to get beaten 3-0 and that is total crap. But you see, I am a Red Sox fan, so I know what slumps are. Unlike many fans in the SC2 scene, who are like weather vains and just band wagon to the next winning Korean player and call him a god of the game until he loses and then its on to the next one. I would say that one is not much better than the other.
What's wrong with that? It's basically how Sc2 has worked at the pro level since it's inception.
Beta/Late 2010 - Fruitdealer/Tester era. Early - Mid 2011 - Mvp/MC/Nestea era Late 2011 - Mvp/MMA/DRG era Early - Mid 2012 - MKP/DRG era Mid - Late 2012 - Life/Parting/Rain/Leenock/Patch Zerg era
Are you denying that players in Sc2 tend to be at the top for about 6 months maximum and then fall off still able to win tournament but never consistently stringing together GSL/MLG wins like Mvp, DRG and Life were able to do at their peaks?
Well in the Boston area, we have words for people like that, but I won't use it on TL. But it's called being a fair weather fan. They cheer when their team is winning, but disappear when they aren't. Real fan cheer when the team is playing. I still cheer for MC and willl until he quits. Same with MKP and the members of EG. I am not a fair weather fan, I even cheer when they lose.
Most Sc2 fans are a fan of the game more than players so we just like whoever has cool play and shows good games.
That is what a fair weather fan is, they don't care who is playing and just cheer for the winner because it is easy. They like to watch the winner and can’t deal with the disappointment, or the idea that they might have to wait to see their favorite player be awesome. Fans like myself and my father who waited 20 years or (nearly 60 in my fathers case) for the Sox to win a world series have little patience for fair weather fans.
People are never going to be like that for Sc2 because you don't grow up with a team like you do it in real sports.
Instead people support players for their country, region, race, team, playstyle etc..
Real sports are also a lot more consistent, your favourite team is a constant forever. When I first got into Sc2 my favourite players were Nestea, Fruit Dealer, Jinro and July and my favourite team was oGs. Three of those players don't even play anymore, Nestea plays but is a shadow of what he was and oGs has disbanded. I'd love for Nestea to come back but it's not going to happen, so naturally people move onto new players to cheer for who are active.
On March 28 2013 01:32 sitromit wrote: [quote] He got 3-0'ed at MLG and IEM too. It has nothing to do with tournament format. Most of his big wins were in tournaments with much weaker competition compared to the GSL or the other tournaments he didn't do well in.
Well to be fair, he go 3-0ed by a Kespa player, Last, in one of the most stacked brackets I have ever seen. Last then went 2-3 vs Life, who won MLG. He didn't lose to some scrub, but a guy who almost beat the winner of the entire event.
This is the kind of logic that's so funny about Stephano fans (it also applies for Nerchio, Naniwa and any other of the current hyped foreigners too).
We constantly have to suffer this double think of how when they win (or better yet not actually playing vs Koreans at all as this is when their hype is biggest) they're Code S quality, amongst the absolute best in the world and can beat anyone and take down any tournament including Code S.
When they lose however it's okay because they lost to good player and there's no shame in that apparently.
The foreigner fanboy however never makes the connection that beating top players like Last, MVP, Yoda, Life and Flash is what makes you a top player and consistently losing to these level of players (like Stephano has for months and months now) means you're not a top player.
Stephano got absolutely smashed at IEM and MLG, no if's no but's he was destroyed by better players.
Well I can say he did shitty and should have done better. That it is unacceptable to get beaten 3-0 and that is total crap. But you see, I am a Red Sox fan, so I know what slumps are. Unlike many fans in the SC2 scene, who are like weather vains and just band wagon to the next winning Korean player and call him a god of the game until he loses and then its on to the next one. I would say that one is not much better than the other.
What's wrong with that? It's basically how Sc2 has worked at the pro level since it's inception.
Beta/Late 2010 - Fruitdealer/Tester era. Early - Mid 2011 - Mvp/MC/Nestea era Late 2011 - Mvp/MMA/DRG era Early - Mid 2012 - MKP/DRG era Mid - Late 2012 - Life/Parting/Rain/Leenock/Patch Zerg era
Are you denying that players in Sc2 tend to be at the top for about 6 months maximum and then fall off still able to win tournament but never consistently stringing together GSL/MLG wins like Mvp, DRG and Life were able to do at their peaks?
Well in the Boston area, we have words for people like that, but I won't use it on TL. But it's called being a fair weather fan. They cheer when their team is winning, but disappear when they aren't. Real fan cheer when the team is playing. I still cheer for MC and willl until he quits. Same with MKP and the members of EG. I am not a fair weather fan, I even cheer when they lose.
Most Sc2 fans are a fan of the game more than players so we just like whoever has cool play and shows good games.
That is what a fair weather fan is, they don't care who is playing and just cheer for the winner because it is easy. They like to watch the winner and can’t deal with the disappointment, or the idea that they might have to wait to see their favorite player be awesome. Fans like myself and my father who waited 20 years or (nearly 60 in my fathers case) for the Sox to win a world series have little patience for fair weather fans.
That's great but ... careface ? Sports = entertainment People should be free to choice any way and form they "follow" the game or a team all they want.
But then making fun people who cheer for these players, claiming they are "fan boy" pretty much goes against what you just said there. Or did you see what started this argument in the first place?
Your agruments are pointless and to long for you compare a "real" sport with something as fast moving as E-sports. I did not enjoy reading they way you presented yourself as the high and mighty in that last post as if long time fans actualy only matter and as if you are more special and as if you don't suport a single team or player is something of a crime.
Suporting starcraft works a little bit different then a sport team that has been around for 100 years or so.
On March 28 2013 02:18 HappyTimePANDA wrote: This is disappointing. Foreigners can't keep up with Koreans and then when they take the steps needed to be at a Korean level (training like Koreans) they say the coach is mean and it is too hard. I really hope this is just to Stephano not having the willpower to follow his coaches rules and not because Blizzard is going to region lock:/
Why would they region lock after providing multi-region functionality?
I think foreigners so far have not kept up with Koreans because of willpower. Not saying it's not incredibly hard, but why else would he be giving up?
Think about it, you go to Korea, you don't speak the language. You are far from home, with a foreign coach who may or not be "mean"(playing sports for my whole life I actually prefer a "mean" coach, I'm not a baby). Language barrier is huge as well as the culture differences. And just based on Stephano's personality and how he repeatedly has said he does not feel the need to practice for matchups and study opponents/work on his technique but instead to just mass game, I'm not surprised that he wouldn't fit in well with the Korean style of training.
One day, we will get a foreigner with the right mindset and talent, who will go to Korea and be willing to put his head down for a year or two to truly take over the game.
On March 28 2013 00:24 FeyFey wrote: Good decision, Korea really seems to pull Stephano down a few levels. Some people just work differently. Hope he can get himself in a good mood again.
On March 28 2013 02:18 HappyTimePANDA wrote: This is disappointing. Foreigners can't keep up with Koreans and then when they take the steps needed to be at a Korean level (training like Koreans) they say the coach is mean and it is too hard. I really hope this is just to Stephano not having the willpower to follow his coaches rules and not because Blizzard is going to region lock:/
Why would they region lock after providing multi-region functionality?
I think foreigners so far have not kept up with Koreans because of willpower. Not saying it's not incredibly hard, but why else would he be giving up?
Think about it, you go to Korea, you don't speak the language. You are far from home, with a foreign coach who may or not be "mean"(playing sports for my whole life I actually prefer a "mean" coach, I'm not a baby). Language barrier is huge as well as the culture differences. And just based on Stephano's personality and how he repeatedly has said he does not feel the need to practice for matchups and study opponents/work on his technique but instead to just mass game, I'm not surprised that he wouldn't fit in well with the Korean style of training.
One day, we will get a foreigner with the right mindset and talent, who will go to Korea and be willing to put his head down for a year or two to truly take over the game.
It's not a region lock for ladder, it's for tournaments. At least that is one of the rumors of the Blizzard announcement on Apr 3rd
On March 28 2013 01:22 Noobity wrote: I've always thought of the GSL, Proleague, MLG, Dreamhack, etc. as different leagues in the same sport, kinda like the different leagues in the NFL, or MLB. They simply have different ways to go about the same thing. GSL has a lot of mental preparation attached to it because the matches are so far apart and for the most part you know who you're facing long in advance. Proleague has a format where players will be able to focus on maps specifically and matchups they can be used as snipers in. Foreign tournaments require you to be awesome at every matchup at any given time, and to be able to play marathon gaming sessions. To say that any one of those additional skills necessary are less difficult than any of the others is ignorant.
My point is simply that it's disappointing to hear all the hate Stephano's getting for leaving Korea when the tournaments he was there for focused on a play style that he might not be as capable of adapting to. We have this idea that certain foreigners shouldn't have beaten certain koreans, or aren't as good as certain koreans, when the korean players are playing in foreign tournaments. It's simply that there are different styles and the players involved have different strengths and weaknesses not only in the play of the actual game, but also the preparation, and how they handle the individual tournament themselves.
The only things we can say about Stephano leaving Korea are what we've heard first hand. Him leaving is not foreigner laziness, it's him deciding to leave. Focusing on international tournaments doesn't make him a worse player than Koreans, it means that's what he's most comfortable with and where he has the best opportunity to make a living.
He got 3-0'ed at MLG and IEM too. It has nothing to do with tournament format. Most of his big wins were in tournaments with much weaker competition compared to the GSL or the other tournaments he didn't do well in.
Well to be fair, he go 3-0ed by a Kespa player, Last, in one of the most stacked brackets I have ever seen. Last then went 2-3 vs Life, who won MLG. He didn't lose to some scrub, but a guy who almost beat the winner of the entire event.
This is the kind of logic that's so funny about Stephano fans (it also applies for Nerchio, Naniwa and any other of the current hyped foreigners too).
We constantly have to suffer this double think of how when they win (or better yet not actually playing vs Koreans at all as this is when their hype is biggest) they're Code S quality, amongst the absolute best in the world and can beat anyone and take down any tournament including Code S.
When they lose however it's okay because they lost to good player and there's no shame in that apparently.
The foreigner fanboy however never makes the connection that beating top players like Last, MVP, Yoda, Life and Flash is what makes you a top player and consistently losing to these level of players (like Stephano has for months and months now) means you're not a top player.
Stephano got absolutely smashed at IEM and MLG, no if's no but's he was destroyed by better players.
Well I can say he did shitty and should have done better. That it is unacceptable to get beaten 3-0 and that is total crap. But you see, I am a Red Sox fan, so I know what slumps are. Unlike many fans in the SC2 scene, who are like weather vains and just band wagon to the next winning Korean player and call him a god of the game until he loses and then its on to the next one. I would say that one is not much better than the other.
What's wrong with that? It's basically how Sc2 has worked at the pro level since it's inception.
Beta/Late 2010 - Fruitdealer/Tester era. Early - Mid 2011 - Mvp/MC/Nestea era Late 2011 - Mvp/MMA/DRG era Early - Mid 2012 - MKP/DRG era Mid - Late 2012 - Life/Parting/Rain/Leenock/Patch Zerg era
Are you denying that players in Sc2 tend to be at the top for about 6 months maximum and then fall off still able to win tournament but never consistently stringing together GSL/MLG wins like Mvp, DRG and Life were able to do at their peaks?
Well in the Boston area, we have words for people like that, but I won't use it on TL. But it's called being a fair weather fan. They cheer when their team is winning, but disappear when they aren't. Real fan cheer when the team is playing. I still cheer for MC and willl until he quits. Same with MKP and the members of EG. I am not a fair weather fan, I even cheer when they lose.
Most Sc2 fans are a fan of the game more than players so we just like whoever has cool play and shows good games.
That is what a fair weather fan is, they don't care who is playing and just cheer for the winner because it is easy. They like to watch the winner and can’t deal with the disappointment, or the idea that they might have to wait to see their favorite player be awesome. Fans like myself and my father who waited 20 years or (nearly 60 in my fathers case) for the Sox to win a world series have little patience for fair weather fans.
That's great but ... careface ? Sports = entertainment People should be free to choice any way and form they "follow" the game or a team all they want.
Just ignore Plansix, let him sit on his gold throne. If he thinks he's better than the rest of fans who actually don't want to watch terrible foreigners and prefer watching high-quality games...idk. I still root for the Lakers even though they're absolute shit this year but that doesn't mean I can't enjoy watching the Thunder or the Heat. So yes, I shall fair-weather teams/players if I want to, and I'll enjoy seeing them win.
On March 28 2013 02:18 HappyTimePANDA wrote: This is disappointing. Foreigners can't keep up with Koreans and then when they take the steps needed to be at a Korean level (training like Koreans) they say the coach is mean and it is too hard. I really hope this is just to Stephano not having the willpower to follow his coaches rules and not because Blizzard is going to region lock:/
Why would they region lock after providing multi-region functionality?
I think foreigners so far have not kept up with Koreans because of willpower. Not saying it's not incredibly hard, but why else would he be giving up?
Think about it, you go to Korea, you don't speak the language. You are far from home, with a foreign coach who may or not be "mean"(playing sports for my whole life I actually prefer a "mean" coach, I'm not a baby). Language barrier is huge as well as the culture differences. And just based on Stephano's personality and how he repeatedly has said he does not feel the need to practice for matchups and study opponents/work on his technique but instead to just mass game, I'm not surprised that he wouldn't fit in well with the Korean style of training.
One day, we will get a foreigner with the right mindset and talent, who will go to Korea and be willing to put his head down for a year or two to truly take over the game.
I'm fine that he's taking a break from Korea, but he has consistently given trouble to the Gom team and does not deserve another GSL seed ever. He's going to have to earn that right now. I hope he can recover and stay relevant. Lots of ppl love him.
On March 28 2013 01:22 Noobity wrote: I've always thought of the GSL, Proleague, MLG, Dreamhack, etc. as different leagues in the same sport, kinda like the different leagues in the NFL, or MLB. They simply have different ways to go about the same thing. GSL has a lot of mental preparation attached to it because the matches are so far apart and for the most part you know who you're facing long in advance. Proleague has a format where players will be able to focus on maps specifically and matchups they can be used as snipers in. Foreign tournaments require you to be awesome at every matchup at any given time, and to be able to play marathon gaming sessions. To say that any one of those additional skills necessary are less difficult than any of the others is ignorant.
My point is simply that it's disappointing to hear all the hate Stephano's getting for leaving Korea when the tournaments he was there for focused on a play style that he might not be as capable of adapting to. We have this idea that certain foreigners shouldn't have beaten certain koreans, or aren't as good as certain koreans, when the korean players are playing in foreign tournaments. It's simply that there are different styles and the players involved have different strengths and weaknesses not only in the play of the actual game, but also the preparation, and how they handle the individual tournament themselves.
The only things we can say about Stephano leaving Korea are what we've heard first hand. Him leaving is not foreigner laziness, it's him deciding to leave. Focusing on international tournaments doesn't make him a worse player than Koreans, it means that's what he's most comfortable with and where he has the best opportunity to make a living.
He got 3-0'ed at MLG and IEM too. It has nothing to do with tournament format. Most of his big wins were in tournaments with much weaker competition compared to the GSL or the other tournaments he didn't do well in.
Well to be fair, he go 3-0ed by a Kespa player, Last, in one of the most stacked brackets I have ever seen. Last then went 2-3 vs Life, who won MLG. He didn't lose to some scrub, but a guy who almost beat the winner of the entire event.
This is the kind of logic that's so funny about Stephano fans (it also applies for Nerchio, Naniwa and any other of the current hyped foreigners too).
We constantly have to suffer this double think of how when they win (or better yet not actually playing vs Koreans at all as this is when their hype is biggest) they're Code S quality, amongst the absolute best in the world and can beat anyone and take down any tournament including Code S.
When they lose however it's okay because they lost to good player and there's no shame in that apparently.
The foreigner fanboy however never makes the connection that beating top players like Last, MVP, Yoda, Life and Flash is what makes you a top player and consistently losing to these level of players (like Stephano has for months and months now) means you're not a top player.
Stephano got absolutely smashed at IEM and MLG, no if's no but's he was destroyed by better players.
Well I can say he did shitty and should have done better. That it is unacceptable to get beaten 3-0 and that is total crap. But you see, I am a Red Sox fan, so I know what slumps are. Unlike many fans in the SC2 scene, who are like weather vains and just band wagon to the next winning Korean player and call him a god of the game until he loses and then its on to the next one. I would say that one is not much better than the other.
What's wrong with that? It's basically how Sc2 has worked at the pro level since it's inception.
Beta/Late 2010 - Fruitdealer/Tester era. Early - Mid 2011 - Mvp/MC/Nestea era Late 2011 - Mvp/MMA/DRG era Early - Mid 2012 - MKP/DRG era Mid - Late 2012 - Life/Parting/Rain/Leenock/Patch Zerg era
Are you denying that players in Sc2 tend to be at the top for about 6 months maximum and then fall off still able to win tournament but never consistently stringing together GSL/MLG wins like Mvp, DRG and Life were able to do at their peaks?
Well in the Boston area, we have words for people like that, but I won't use it on TL. But it's called being a fair weather fan. They cheer when their team is winning, but disappear when they aren't. Real fan cheer when the team is playing. I still cheer for MC and willl until he quits. Same with MKP and the members of EG. I am not a fair weather fan, I even cheer when they lose.
Most Sc2 fans are a fan of the game more than players so we just like whoever has cool play and shows good games.
That is what a fair weather fan is, they don't care who is playing and just cheer for the winner because it is easy. They like to watch the winner and can’t deal with the disappointment, or the idea that they might have to wait to see their favorite player be awesome. Fans like myself and my father who waited 20 years or (nearly 60 in my fathers case) for the Sox to win a world series have little patience for fair weather fans.
People are never going to be like that for Sc2 because you don't grow up with a team like you do it in real sports.
Instead people support players for their country, region, race, team, playstyle etc..
Real sports are also a lot more consistent, your favourite team is a constant forever. When I first got into Sc2 my favourite players were Nestea, Fruit Dealer, Jinro and July and my favourite team was oGs. Three of those players don't even play anymore, Nestea plays but is a shadow of what he was and oGs has disbanded. I'd love for Nestea to come back but it's not going to happen, so naturally people move onto new players to cheer for who are active.
All of them actually ive heard people say that Julyzerg shows up in PC bangs to play League of Legend sometimes
On March 28 2013 01:32 sitromit wrote: [quote] He got 3-0'ed at MLG and IEM too. It has nothing to do with tournament format. Most of his big wins were in tournaments with much weaker competition compared to the GSL or the other tournaments he didn't do well in.
Well to be fair, he go 3-0ed by a Kespa player, Last, in one of the most stacked brackets I have ever seen. Last then went 2-3 vs Life, who won MLG. He didn't lose to some scrub, but a guy who almost beat the winner of the entire event.
This is the kind of logic that's so funny about Stephano fans (it also applies for Nerchio, Naniwa and any other of the current hyped foreigners too).
We constantly have to suffer this double think of how when they win (or better yet not actually playing vs Koreans at all as this is when their hype is biggest) they're Code S quality, amongst the absolute best in the world and can beat anyone and take down any tournament including Code S.
When they lose however it's okay because they lost to good player and there's no shame in that apparently.
The foreigner fanboy however never makes the connection that beating top players like Last, MVP, Yoda, Life and Flash is what makes you a top player and consistently losing to these level of players (like Stephano has for months and months now) means you're not a top player.
Stephano got absolutely smashed at IEM and MLG, no if's no but's he was destroyed by better players.
Well I can say he did shitty and should have done better. That it is unacceptable to get beaten 3-0 and that is total crap. But you see, I am a Red Sox fan, so I know what slumps are. Unlike many fans in the SC2 scene, who are like weather vains and just band wagon to the next winning Korean player and call him a god of the game until he loses and then its on to the next one. I would say that one is not much better than the other.
What's wrong with that? It's basically how Sc2 has worked at the pro level since it's inception.
Beta/Late 2010 - Fruitdealer/Tester era. Early - Mid 2011 - Mvp/MC/Nestea era Late 2011 - Mvp/MMA/DRG era Early - Mid 2012 - MKP/DRG era Mid - Late 2012 - Life/Parting/Rain/Leenock/Patch Zerg era
Are you denying that players in Sc2 tend to be at the top for about 6 months maximum and then fall off still able to win tournament but never consistently stringing together GSL/MLG wins like Mvp, DRG and Life were able to do at their peaks?
Well in the Boston area, we have words for people like that, but I won't use it on TL. But it's called being a fair weather fan. They cheer when their team is winning, but disappear when they aren't. Real fan cheer when the team is playing. I still cheer for MC and willl until he quits. Same with MKP and the members of EG. I am not a fair weather fan, I even cheer when they lose.
Most Sc2 fans are a fan of the game more than players so we just like whoever has cool play and shows good games.
That is what a fair weather fan is, they don't care who is playing and just cheer for the winner because it is easy. They like to watch the winner and can’t deal with the disappointment, or the idea that they might have to wait to see their favorite player be awesome. Fans like myself and my father who waited 20 years or (nearly 60 in my fathers case) for the Sox to win a world series have little patience for fair weather fans.
That's great but ... careface ? Sports = entertainment People should be free to choice any way and form they "follow" the game or a team all they want.
Just ignore Plansix, let him sit on his gold throne. If he thinks he's better than the rest of fans who actually don't want to watch terrible foreigners and prefer watching high-quality games...idk. I still root for the Lakers even though they're absolute shit this year, doesn't mean I have to treat SC2 the same way.
LOL exactly that kid's been comparing real sports with starcraft 2, and when he does, he always compares team games (insert:baseball, American football, basketball etc.) with a 1v1 game like Starcraft 2.
On March 28 2013 01:22 Noobity wrote: I've always thought of the GSL, Proleague, MLG, Dreamhack, etc. as different leagues in the same sport, kinda like the different leagues in the NFL, or MLB. They simply have different ways to go about the same thing. GSL has a lot of mental preparation attached to it because the matches are so far apart and for the most part you know who you're facing long in advance. Proleague has a format where players will be able to focus on maps specifically and matchups they can be used as snipers in. Foreign tournaments require you to be awesome at every matchup at any given time, and to be able to play marathon gaming sessions. To say that any one of those additional skills necessary are less difficult than any of the others is ignorant.
My point is simply that it's disappointing to hear all the hate Stephano's getting for leaving Korea when the tournaments he was there for focused on a play style that he might not be as capable of adapting to. We have this idea that certain foreigners shouldn't have beaten certain koreans, or aren't as good as certain koreans, when the korean players are playing in foreign tournaments. It's simply that there are different styles and the players involved have different strengths and weaknesses not only in the play of the actual game, but also the preparation, and how they handle the individual tournament themselves.
The only things we can say about Stephano leaving Korea are what we've heard first hand. Him leaving is not foreigner laziness, it's him deciding to leave. Focusing on international tournaments doesn't make him a worse player than Koreans, it means that's what he's most comfortable with and where he has the best opportunity to make a living.
He got 3-0'ed at MLG and IEM too. It has nothing to do with tournament format. Most of his big wins were in tournaments with much weaker competition compared to the GSL or the other tournaments he didn't do well in.
Well to be fair, he go 3-0ed by a Kespa player, Last, in one of the most stacked brackets I have ever seen. Last then went 2-3 vs Life, who won MLG. He didn't lose to some scrub, but a guy who almost beat the winner of the entire event.
This is the kind of logic that's so funny about Stephano fans (it also applies for Nerchio, Naniwa and any other of the current hyped foreigners too).
We constantly have to suffer this double think of how when they win (or better yet not actually playing vs Koreans at all as this is when their hype is biggest) they're Code S quality, amongst the absolute best in the world and can beat anyone and take down any tournament including Code S.
When they lose however it's okay because they lost to good player and there's no shame in that apparently.
The foreigner fanboy however never makes the connection that beating top players like Last, MVP, Yoda, Life and Flash is what makes you a top player and consistently losing to these level of players (like Stephano has for months and months now) means you're not a top player.
Stephano got absolutely smashed at IEM and MLG, no if's no but's he was destroyed by better players.
Well I can say he did shitty and should have done better. That it is unacceptable to get beaten 3-0 and that is total crap. But you see, I am a Red Sox fan, so I know what slumps are. Unlike many fans in the SC2 scene, who are like weather vains and just band wagon to the next winning Korean player and call him a god of the game until he loses and then its on to the next one. I would say that one is not much better than the other.
What's wrong with that? It's basically how Sc2 has worked at the pro level since it's inception.
Beta/Late 2010 - Fruitdealer/Tester era. Early - Mid 2011 - Mvp/MC/Nestea era Late 2011 - Mvp/MMA/DRG era Early - Mid 2012 - MKP/DRG era Mid - Late 2012 - Life/Parting/Rain/Leenock/Patch Zerg era
Are you denying that players in Sc2 tend to be at the top for about 6 months maximum and then fall off still able to win tournament but never consistently stringing together GSL/MLG wins like Mvp, DRG and Life were able to do at their peaks?
Well in the Boston area, we have words for people like that, but I won't use it on TL. But it's called being a fair weather fan. They cheer when their team is winning, but disappear when they aren't. Real fan cheer when the team is playing. I still cheer for MC and willl until he quits. Same with MKP and the members of EG. I am not a fair weather fan, I even cheer when they lose.
Most Sc2 fans are a fan of the game more than players so we just like whoever has cool play and shows good games.
That is what a fair weather fan is, they don't care who is playing and just cheer for the winner because it is easy. They like to watch the winner and can’t deal with the disappointment, or the idea that they might have to wait to see their favorite player be awesome. Fans like myself and my father who waited 20 years or (nearly 60 in my fathers case) for the Sox to win a world series have little patience for fair weather fans.
People are never going to be like that for Sc2 because you don't grow up with a team like you do it in real sports.
Instead people support players for their country, region, race, team, playstyle etc..
Real sports are also a lot more consistent, your favourite team is a constant forever. When I first got into Sc2 my favourite players were Nestea, Fruit Dealer, Jinro and July and my favourite team was oGs. Three of those players don't even play anymore, Nestea plays but is a shadow of what he was and oGs has disbanded. I'd love for Nestea to come back but it's not going to happen, so naturally people move onto new players to cheer for who are active.
Real sports are no more consistent than Esports. Winning 5 super bowls in a row is unheard of, or 5 masters or any number of World Series. The Yankees are known for winning 26 world series in the life of the ball club, which dates back nearly 100 years. They are the only club with that many titles in all of professional sports. The only reason teams seem consistent in real sports is because their seasons take a full year. And people who cheer for a team one year, only to leave them when they lose next year.
Once again, you can cheer for the top player if you want, but don’t go out of your way to mock the people who are fans the guys who lost or are doing poorly.
On March 28 2013 02:49 BisuDagger wrote: I'm fine that he's taking a break from Korea, but he has consistently given trouble to the Gom team and does not deserve another GSL seed ever. He's going to have to earn that right now. I hope he can recover and stay relevant. Lots of ppl love him.
Uhh...what? When has he ever given trouble to the GOM team, let alone "consistently"? It's okay to appreciate him being gone, but stay with the facts, please.
On March 28 2013 00:22 DtorR wrote: Is there more money involved playing on international tournaments? Even though playing in GSL Code S is an honour but I feel that to win it is not worth the effort. The competition in the international level is a little easier than in Korea.
code S has more prize money but it is way easier to get money out of international tournements.
People keep saying this, but it's short-term thinking that may not be relevant anymore. It may not have even been true when IdrA made the decision to leave, because even then Koreans were beginning to enter foreign tournaments.
You're giving up skill ceiling to get "easier" competition, except Koreans, who are still benefiting from the higher skill ceiling that their training provides, are also a part of those competitions now. You'll get a few thousand here or there from smaller tournaments like DH Bucharest or HSC, but all of the major tournaments have gone to Koreans.
If you were to calculate the money earned from foreign tournaments by country in 2012-13, 90%+ would probably go to Koreans. So I'm not sure that the payout from going home is really that much better than being a GSL Code S player, since Code S players are in all of the important American and European tournaments.
It's somewhere around 64% for Koreans vs 36% for foreigners and that includes Korean tournaments.
Money earned by foreigners in Korea should be a negligible amount, so foreign tournaments still provide easy money in comparison.
It's actually 66% but there's a few problems with just using SC2 Earnings (aside from SC2 Earnings being pretty awful for any kind of data manipulation.) Most of the big foreign tournaments can still be attended while training in Korea, and there's still going to be a trend towards greater competition in foreign tournaments as more and more Koreans head over each year, especially now with KeSPA players playing SC2 for a full year. You're right that there's still some money across the dozens of smaller tournaments, but we're at the point where it's beginning to preclude you from accessing the big money, besides certain things like WCS which spread money 100% evenly.
It's less the GSL spot and more the training opportunity that makes you more competitive when do you do attend foreign events, like HuK and Naniwa did.
On March 28 2013 01:39 Plansix wrote: [quote] Well to be fair, he go 3-0ed by a Kespa player, Last, in one of the most stacked brackets I have ever seen. Last then went 2-3 vs Life, who won MLG. He didn't lose to some scrub, but a guy who almost beat the winner of the entire event.
This is the kind of logic that's so funny about Stephano fans (it also applies for Nerchio, Naniwa and any other of the current hyped foreigners too).
We constantly have to suffer this double think of how when they win (or better yet not actually playing vs Koreans at all as this is when their hype is biggest) they're Code S quality, amongst the absolute best in the world and can beat anyone and take down any tournament including Code S.
When they lose however it's okay because they lost to good player and there's no shame in that apparently.
The foreigner fanboy however never makes the connection that beating top players like Last, MVP, Yoda, Life and Flash is what makes you a top player and consistently losing to these level of players (like Stephano has for months and months now) means you're not a top player.
Stephano got absolutely smashed at IEM and MLG, no if's no but's he was destroyed by better players.
Well I can say he did shitty and should have done better. That it is unacceptable to get beaten 3-0 and that is total crap. But you see, I am a Red Sox fan, so I know what slumps are. Unlike many fans in the SC2 scene, who are like weather vains and just band wagon to the next winning Korean player and call him a god of the game until he loses and then its on to the next one. I would say that one is not much better than the other.
What's wrong with that? It's basically how Sc2 has worked at the pro level since it's inception.
Beta/Late 2010 - Fruitdealer/Tester era. Early - Mid 2011 - Mvp/MC/Nestea era Late 2011 - Mvp/MMA/DRG era Early - Mid 2012 - MKP/DRG era Mid - Late 2012 - Life/Parting/Rain/Leenock/Patch Zerg era
Are you denying that players in Sc2 tend to be at the top for about 6 months maximum and then fall off still able to win tournament but never consistently stringing together GSL/MLG wins like Mvp, DRG and Life were able to do at their peaks?
Well in the Boston area, we have words for people like that, but I won't use it on TL. But it's called being a fair weather fan. They cheer when their team is winning, but disappear when they aren't. Real fan cheer when the team is playing. I still cheer for MC and willl until he quits. Same with MKP and the members of EG. I am not a fair weather fan, I even cheer when they lose.
Most Sc2 fans are a fan of the game more than players so we just like whoever has cool play and shows good games.
That is what a fair weather fan is, they don't care who is playing and just cheer for the winner because it is easy. They like to watch the winner and can’t deal with the disappointment, or the idea that they might have to wait to see their favorite player be awesome. Fans like myself and my father who waited 20 years or (nearly 60 in my fathers case) for the Sox to win a world series have little patience for fair weather fans.
That's great but ... careface ? Sports = entertainment People should be free to choice any way and form they "follow" the game or a team all they want.
Just ignore Plansix, let him sit on his gold throne. If he thinks he's better than the rest of fans who actually don't want to watch terrible foreigners and prefer watching high-quality games...idk. I still root for the Lakers even though they're absolute shit this year, doesn't mean I have to treat SC2 the same way.
LOL exactly that kid's been comparing real sports with starcraft 2, and when he does, he always compares team games (insert:baseball, American football, basketball etc.) with a 1v1 game like Starcraft 2.
I normally use golf, which is as close to SC2, as its not a team sport, requires tons of practices and a good mental game. It also has a ton of interconnected, international tournaments, but no national league.
And the reason I point do this is because people like to make a tons of claims about how things should work in a competitive scene, but don’t look to other competitive leagues for examples of how to make systems work. There was a huge thread saying that where people claimed only the top players should win prize money, but they never noted that the GSL hands money out to anyone who qualifies.
On March 28 2013 02:49 BisuDagger wrote: I'm fine that he's taking a break from Korea, but he has consistently given trouble to the Gom team and does not deserve another GSL seed ever. He's going to have to earn that right now. I hope he can recover and stay relevant. Lots of ppl love him.
Uhh...what? When has he ever given trouble to the GOM team, let alone "consistently"? It's okay to appreciate him being gone, but stay with the facts, please.
Not accepting seeds, saying he is going to give up U&D game etc.
On March 28 2013 00:24 FeyFey wrote: Good decision, Korea really seems to pull Stephano down a few levels. Some people just work differently. Hope he can get himself in a good mood again.
More like it shows what level he is actually on.
A bit of both. GSL showed, that he is not on a top Code-S level, which everyone should have known before already. But it also pulled him down; his PL record was once the second highest percatadge (of more that one game) and did go down towards the end, he lost a bo3 against Grubby somewhere I think and while Grubby is a good player, their previous record was more one-sided than GoOdy-Cloud.
On March 28 2013 01:32 sitromit wrote: [quote] He got 3-0'ed at MLG and IEM too. It has nothing to do with tournament format. Most of his big wins were in tournaments with much weaker competition compared to the GSL or the other tournaments he didn't do well in.
Well to be fair, he go 3-0ed by a Kespa player, Last, in one of the most stacked brackets I have ever seen. Last then went 2-3 vs Life, who won MLG. He didn't lose to some scrub, but a guy who almost beat the winner of the entire event.
This is the kind of logic that's so funny about Stephano fans (it also applies for Nerchio, Naniwa and any other of the current hyped foreigners too).
We constantly have to suffer this double think of how when they win (or better yet not actually playing vs Koreans at all as this is when their hype is biggest) they're Code S quality, amongst the absolute best in the world and can beat anyone and take down any tournament including Code S.
When they lose however it's okay because they lost to good player and there's no shame in that apparently.
The foreigner fanboy however never makes the connection that beating top players like Last, MVP, Yoda, Life and Flash is what makes you a top player and consistently losing to these level of players (like Stephano has for months and months now) means you're not a top player.
Stephano got absolutely smashed at IEM and MLG, no if's no but's he was destroyed by better players.
Well I can say he did shitty and should have done better. That it is unacceptable to get beaten 3-0 and that is total crap. But you see, I am a Red Sox fan, so I know what slumps are. Unlike many fans in the SC2 scene, who are like weather vains and just band wagon to the next winning Korean player and call him a god of the game until he loses and then its on to the next one. I would say that one is not much better than the other.
What's wrong with that? It's basically how Sc2 has worked at the pro level since it's inception.
Beta/Late 2010 - Fruitdealer/Tester era. Early - Mid 2011 - Mvp/MC/Nestea era Late 2011 - Mvp/MMA/DRG era Early - Mid 2012 - MKP/DRG era Mid - Late 2012 - Life/Parting/Rain/Leenock/Patch Zerg era
Are you denying that players in Sc2 tend to be at the top for about 6 months maximum and then fall off still able to win tournament but never consistently stringing together GSL/MLG wins like Mvp, DRG and Life were able to do at their peaks?
Well in the Boston area, we have words for people like that, but I won't use it on TL. But it's called being a fair weather fan. They cheer when their team is winning, but disappear when they aren't. Real fan cheer when the team is playing. I still cheer for MC and willl until he quits. Same with MKP and the members of EG. I am not a fair weather fan, I even cheer when they lose.
Most Sc2 fans are a fan of the game more than players so we just like whoever has cool play and shows good games.
That is what a fair weather fan is, they don't care who is playing and just cheer for the winner because it is easy. They like to watch the winner and can’t deal with the disappointment, or the idea that they might have to wait to see their favorite player be awesome. Fans like myself and my father who waited 20 years or (nearly 60 in my fathers case) for the Sox to win a world series have little patience for fair weather fans.
People are never going to be like that for Sc2 because you don't grow up with a team like you do it in real sports.
Instead people support players for their country, region, race, team, playstyle etc..
Real sports are also a lot more consistent, your favourite team is a constant forever. When I first got into Sc2 my favourite players were Nestea, Fruit Dealer, Jinro and July and my favourite team was oGs. Three of those players don't even play anymore, Nestea plays but is a shadow of what he was and oGs has disbanded. I'd love for Nestea to come back but it's not going to happen, so naturally people move onto new players to cheer for who are active.
Real sports are no more consistent than Esports. Winning 5 super bowls in a row is unheard of, or 5 masters or any number of World Series. The Yankees are known for winning 26 world series in the life of the ball club, which dates back nearly 100 years. They are the only club with that many titles in all of professional sports. The only reason teams seem consistent in real sports is because their seasons take a full year. And people who cheer for a team one year, only to leave them when they lose next year.
Once again, you can cheer for the top player if you want, but don’t go out of your way to mock the people who are fans the guys who lost or are doing poorly.
Well maybe in terrible American sports because you have comical affirmative action rules.
And don't patronise me because aren't the Boston Red Sox the 2nd greatest team in the history of American baseball?
My football team Huddersfield Town have been basically total shit since the 1930s and have never been in the top division in my lifetime and yet 10-20k fans watch them every week.
Also absolutely loads of football teams have more than 26 titles.
On March 28 2013 01:39 Plansix wrote: [quote] Well to be fair, he go 3-0ed by a Kespa player, Last, in one of the most stacked brackets I have ever seen. Last then went 2-3 vs Life, who won MLG. He didn't lose to some scrub, but a guy who almost beat the winner of the entire event.
This is the kind of logic that's so funny about Stephano fans (it also applies for Nerchio, Naniwa and any other of the current hyped foreigners too).
We constantly have to suffer this double think of how when they win (or better yet not actually playing vs Koreans at all as this is when their hype is biggest) they're Code S quality, amongst the absolute best in the world and can beat anyone and take down any tournament including Code S.
When they lose however it's okay because they lost to good player and there's no shame in that apparently.
The foreigner fanboy however never makes the connection that beating top players like Last, MVP, Yoda, Life and Flash is what makes you a top player and consistently losing to these level of players (like Stephano has for months and months now) means you're not a top player.
Stephano got absolutely smashed at IEM and MLG, no if's no but's he was destroyed by better players.
Well I can say he did shitty and should have done better. That it is unacceptable to get beaten 3-0 and that is total crap. But you see, I am a Red Sox fan, so I know what slumps are. Unlike many fans in the SC2 scene, who are like weather vains and just band wagon to the next winning Korean player and call him a god of the game until he loses and then its on to the next one. I would say that one is not much better than the other.
What's wrong with that? It's basically how Sc2 has worked at the pro level since it's inception.
Beta/Late 2010 - Fruitdealer/Tester era. Early - Mid 2011 - Mvp/MC/Nestea era Late 2011 - Mvp/MMA/DRG era Early - Mid 2012 - MKP/DRG era Mid - Late 2012 - Life/Parting/Rain/Leenock/Patch Zerg era
Are you denying that players in Sc2 tend to be at the top for about 6 months maximum and then fall off still able to win tournament but never consistently stringing together GSL/MLG wins like Mvp, DRG and Life were able to do at their peaks?
Well in the Boston area, we have words for people like that, but I won't use it on TL. But it's called being a fair weather fan. They cheer when their team is winning, but disappear when they aren't. Real fan cheer when the team is playing. I still cheer for MC and willl until he quits. Same with MKP and the members of EG. I am not a fair weather fan, I even cheer when they lose.
Most Sc2 fans are a fan of the game more than players so we just like whoever has cool play and shows good games.
That is what a fair weather fan is, they don't care who is playing and just cheer for the winner because it is easy. They like to watch the winner and can’t deal with the disappointment, or the idea that they might have to wait to see their favorite player be awesome. Fans like myself and my father who waited 20 years or (nearly 60 in my fathers case) for the Sox to win a world series have little patience for fair weather fans.
That's great but ... careface ? Sports = entertainment People should be free to choice any way and form they "follow" the game or a team all they want.
But then making fun people who cheer for these players, claiming they are "fan boy" pretty much goes against what you just said there. Or did you see what started this argument in the first place?
Your agruments are pointless and to long for you compare a "real" sport with something as fast moving as E-sports. I did not enjoy reading they way you presented yourself as the high and mighty in that last post as if long time fans actualy only matter and as if you are more special and as if you don't suport a single team or player is something of a crime.
Suporting starcraft works a little bit different then a sport team that has been around for 100 years or so.
Well, I don’t enjoy being called a fan boy because I cheer for EG, MC or MKP, even when they lose. It insulting and makes it seem like I am cheering without reason, which I am not. And if someone is going to call someone a fan boy(which I know you didn’t), they need to be prepared to be called a fair weather fan who only cheers for the player who is winning at the time because it’s easy.
This is kind of how being a fan for sports teams works. A little trash talking is part of the fun, as long as its all good natured.
On March 28 2013 00:22 DtorR wrote: Is there more money involved playing on international tournaments? Even though playing in GSL Code S is an honour but I feel that to win it is not worth the effort. The competition in the international level is a little easier than in Korea.
Not read past this but yes. No money in Korea unless you hit top 4 of a variance filled event with the toughest lineup possible.
On March 28 2013 01:39 Plansix wrote: [quote] Well to be fair, he go 3-0ed by a Kespa player, Last, in one of the most stacked brackets I have ever seen. Last then went 2-3 vs Life, who won MLG. He didn't lose to some scrub, but a guy who almost beat the winner of the entire event.
This is the kind of logic that's so funny about Stephano fans (it also applies for Nerchio, Naniwa and any other of the current hyped foreigners too).
We constantly have to suffer this double think of how when they win (or better yet not actually playing vs Koreans at all as this is when their hype is biggest) they're Code S quality, amongst the absolute best in the world and can beat anyone and take down any tournament including Code S.
When they lose however it's okay because they lost to good player and there's no shame in that apparently.
The foreigner fanboy however never makes the connection that beating top players like Last, MVP, Yoda, Life and Flash is what makes you a top player and consistently losing to these level of players (like Stephano has for months and months now) means you're not a top player.
Stephano got absolutely smashed at IEM and MLG, no if's no but's he was destroyed by better players.
Well I can say he did shitty and should have done better. That it is unacceptable to get beaten 3-0 and that is total crap. But you see, I am a Red Sox fan, so I know what slumps are. Unlike many fans in the SC2 scene, who are like weather vains and just band wagon to the next winning Korean player and call him a god of the game until he loses and then its on to the next one. I would say that one is not much better than the other.
What's wrong with that? It's basically how Sc2 has worked at the pro level since it's inception.
Beta/Late 2010 - Fruitdealer/Tester era. Early - Mid 2011 - Mvp/MC/Nestea era Late 2011 - Mvp/MMA/DRG era Early - Mid 2012 - MKP/DRG era Mid - Late 2012 - Life/Parting/Rain/Leenock/Patch Zerg era
Are you denying that players in Sc2 tend to be at the top for about 6 months maximum and then fall off still able to win tournament but never consistently stringing together GSL/MLG wins like Mvp, DRG and Life were able to do at their peaks?
Well in the Boston area, we have words for people like that, but I won't use it on TL. But it's called being a fair weather fan. They cheer when their team is winning, but disappear when they aren't. Real fan cheer when the team is playing. I still cheer for MC and willl until he quits. Same with MKP and the members of EG. I am not a fair weather fan, I even cheer when they lose.
Most Sc2 fans are a fan of the game more than players so we just like whoever has cool play and shows good games.
That is what a fair weather fan is, they don't care who is playing and just cheer for the winner because it is easy. They like to watch the winner and can’t deal with the disappointment, or the idea that they might have to wait to see their favorite player be awesome. Fans like myself and my father who waited 20 years or (nearly 60 in my fathers case) for the Sox to win a world series have little patience for fair weather fans.
People are never going to be like that for Sc2 because you don't grow up with a team like you do it in real sports.
Instead people support players for their country, region, race, team, playstyle etc..
Real sports are also a lot more consistent, your favourite team is a constant forever. When I first got into Sc2 my favourite players were Nestea, Fruit Dealer, Jinro and July and my favourite team was oGs. Three of those players don't even play anymore, Nestea plays but is a shadow of what he was and oGs has disbanded. I'd love for Nestea to come back but it's not going to happen, so naturally people move onto new players to cheer for who are active.
Real sports are no more consistent than Esports. Winning 5 super bowls in a row is unheard of, or 5 masters or any number of World Series. The Yankees are known for winning 26 world series in the life of the ball club, which dates back nearly 100 years. They are the only club with that many titles in all of professional sports. The only reason teams seem consistent in real sports is because their seasons take a full year. And people who cheer for a team one year, only to leave them when they lose next year.
Once again, you can cheer for the top player if you want, but don’t go out of your way to mock the people who are fans the guys who lost or are doing poorly.
Well maybe in terrible American sports because you have comical affirmative action rules.
And don't patronise me because aren't the Boston Red Sox the 2nd greatest team in the history of American baseball?
My football team Huddersfield Town have been basically total shit since the 1930s and have never been in the top division in my lifetime and yet 10-20k fans watch them every week.
Also absolutely loads of football teams have more than 26 titles.
The Red Sox didn’t win a world series for 86 years, it was called the Curse of the Bambino and it was a huge part of the lore of the city of Boston for years. They are a good baseball team, but not the second best for raw numbers(hopefully my father won’t read this). And I am talking about America sports, I don’t follow soccer at all, but I am sure that some clubs have a good number of titles. I don’t know about these “comical affirmative action rules” are, unless you are talking about salary caps for teams.
But this is what you get for calling me a fan boy and mindlessly cheering for Stephano.
The formulation "in all of professional sports" is including all of professional sports, not just the popular american ones. I not even be surprised, if there would be a swimmer or smth, who has more world titels alone.
I think MLG and IEM showed pretty much, that Stephano has other concerns than GSL Code S right now. So I fully understand the move. He stated not being comfortable at the EG-TL house. So if it's not fitting for him there, he has no reason to stay.
On March 28 2013 01:32 sitromit wrote: [quote] He got 3-0'ed at MLG and IEM too. It has nothing to do with tournament format. Most of his big wins were in tournaments with much weaker competition compared to the GSL or the other tournaments he didn't do well in.
Well to be fair, he go 3-0ed by a Kespa player, Last, in one of the most stacked brackets I have ever seen. Last then went 2-3 vs Life, who won MLG. He didn't lose to some scrub, but a guy who almost beat the winner of the entire event.
This is the kind of logic that's so funny about Stephano fans (it also applies for Nerchio, Naniwa and any other of the current hyped foreigners too).
We constantly have to suffer this double think of how when they win (or better yet not actually playing vs Koreans at all as this is when their hype is biggest) they're Code S quality, amongst the absolute best in the world and can beat anyone and take down any tournament including Code S.
When they lose however it's okay because they lost to good player and there's no shame in that apparently.
The foreigner fanboy however never makes the connection that beating top players like Last, MVP, Yoda, Life and Flash is what makes you a top player and consistently losing to these level of players (like Stephano has for months and months now) means you're not a top player.
Stephano got absolutely smashed at IEM and MLG, no if's no but's he was destroyed by better players.
Well I can say he did shitty and should have done better. That it is unacceptable to get beaten 3-0 and that is total crap. But you see, I am a Red Sox fan, so I know what slumps are. Unlike many fans in the SC2 scene, who are like weather vains and just band wagon to the next winning Korean player and call him a god of the game until he loses and then its on to the next one. I would say that one is not much better than the other.
What's wrong with that? It's basically how Sc2 has worked at the pro level since it's inception.
Beta/Late 2010 - Fruitdealer/Tester era. Early - Mid 2011 - Mvp/MC/Nestea era Late 2011 - Mvp/MMA/DRG era Early - Mid 2012 - MKP/DRG era Mid - Late 2012 - Life/Parting/Rain/Leenock/Patch Zerg era
Are you denying that players in Sc2 tend to be at the top for about 6 months maximum and then fall off still able to win tournament but never consistently stringing together GSL/MLG wins like Mvp, DRG and Life were able to do at their peaks?
Well in the Boston area, we have words for people like that, but I won't use it on TL. But it's called being a fair weather fan. They cheer when their team is winning, but disappear when they aren't. Real fan cheer when the team is playing. I still cheer for MC and willl until he quits. Same with MKP and the members of EG. I am not a fair weather fan, I even cheer when they lose.
Most Sc2 fans are a fan of the game more than players so we just like whoever has cool play and shows good games.
That is what a fair weather fan is, they don't care who is playing and just cheer for the winner because it is easy. They like to watch the winner and can’t deal with the disappointment, or the idea that they might have to wait to see their favorite player be awesome. Fans like myself and my father who waited 20 years or (nearly 60 in my fathers case) for the Sox to win a world series have little patience for fair weather fans.
People are never going to be like that for Sc2 because you don't grow up with a team like you do it in real sports.
Instead people support players for their country, region, race, team, playstyle etc..
Real sports are also a lot more consistent, your favourite team is a constant forever. When I first got into Sc2 my favourite players were Nestea, Fruit Dealer, Jinro and July and my favourite team was oGs. Three of those players don't even play anymore, Nestea plays but is a shadow of what he was and oGs has disbanded. I'd love for Nestea to come back but it's not going to happen, so naturally people move onto new players to cheer for who are active.
All of them actually ive heard people say that Julyzerg shows up in PC bangs to play League of Legend sometimes
Isn't Julyzerg in the army now? It never got mentioned it but people assumed so. I am still hoping he will come back. He was the first zerg that actually was aggressive before you got muta's.
On March 28 2013 00:22 DtorR wrote: Is there more money involved playing on international tournaments? Even though playing in GSL Code S is an honour but I feel that to win it is not worth the effort. The competition in the international level is a little easier than in Korea.
Not read past this but yes. No money in Korea unless you hit top 4 of a variance filled event with the toughest lineup possible.
If you are talking just about cash payout only then of course. The money for the first foreigner to win GSL is seriously limitless. Can you believe the hype? Can you believe the fan base that would create? Too many people think short term. Oh GSL is too much trouble to win, but the upside for a foreigner winning it are HUGE. The problem is with the community of course, it is more focused on popularity and celebrity than the actual game. While that is great short term, you will see the true colors when it's nothing but Koreans winning everything and all of a sudden fewer and fewer people care about watching SC2 because white boys can't compete.
Time will tell of course, but I don't see more and more foreigners adopting Korean practices so they will always be consistently behind.
On March 28 2013 02:49 BisuDagger wrote: I'm fine that he's taking a break from Korea, but he has consistently given trouble to the Gom team and does not deserve another GSL seed ever. He's going to have to earn that right now. I hope he can recover and stay relevant. Lots of ppl love him.
Uhh...what? When has he ever given trouble to the GOM team, let alone "consistently"? It's okay to appreciate him being gone, but stay with the facts, please.
He gave up his seed once already in tweet and then took it back. And He consistently turned down code S offers until finally accepting one. I am staying with the facts. I consider that causing issues. I don't see any other players causing GSL drama but him. No need to take offense to my opinion based of off the facts.
On March 28 2013 02:49 BisuDagger wrote: I'm fine that he's taking a break from Korea, but he has consistently given trouble to the Gom team and does not deserve another GSL seed ever. He's going to have to earn that right now. I hope he can recover and stay relevant. Lots of ppl love him.
Uhh...what? When has he ever given trouble to the GOM team, let alone "consistently"? It's okay to appreciate him being gone, but stay with the facts, please.
He gave up his seed once already in tweet and then took it back. And He consistently turned down code S offers until finally accepting one. I am staying with the facts. I consider that causing issues. I don't see any other players causing GSL drama but him. No need to take offense to my opinion based of off the facts.
How is turning down offers to play their league an issue? If ESL would make Life an offer about living in Germany to play EPS and he turns it down, is he causing issues as well then?
I'd rather watch Stephano try and make it through Code S than anyone else because he seems to have the best shot. It suck's SK isn't working out for him.
On March 28 2013 03:34 Schelim wrote: not surprised, he seemed so unhappy in Korea. i def would've liked to see him compete there for longer, but i completely understand his decision.
should be interesting if they're gonna replace him for Code s, and if so who's gonna get the seed.
Last's seed not being the last seed to be announced anymore makes the corny wordplay lover in me sad though.
Well GOM themselves haven't made the post yet so there is still hope
On March 28 2013 01:32 sitromit wrote: [quote] He got 3-0'ed at MLG and IEM too. It has nothing to do with tournament format. Most of his big wins were in tournaments with much weaker competition compared to the GSL or the other tournaments he didn't do well in.
Well to be fair, he go 3-0ed by a Kespa player, Last, in one of the most stacked brackets I have ever seen. Last then went 2-3 vs Life, who won MLG. He didn't lose to some scrub, but a guy who almost beat the winner of the entire event.
This is the kind of logic that's so funny about Stephano fans (it also applies for Nerchio, Naniwa and any other of the current hyped foreigners too).
We constantly have to suffer this double think of how when they win (or better yet not actually playing vs Koreans at all as this is when their hype is biggest) they're Code S quality, amongst the absolute best in the world and can beat anyone and take down any tournament including Code S.
When they lose however it's okay because they lost to good player and there's no shame in that apparently.
The foreigner fanboy however never makes the connection that beating top players like Last, MVP, Yoda, Life and Flash is what makes you a top player and consistently losing to these level of players (like Stephano has for months and months now) means you're not a top player.
Stephano got absolutely smashed at IEM and MLG, no if's no but's he was destroyed by better players.
Well I can say he did shitty and should have done better. That it is unacceptable to get beaten 3-0 and that is total crap. But you see, I am a Red Sox fan, so I know what slumps are. Unlike many fans in the SC2 scene, who are like weather vains and just band wagon to the next winning Korean player and call him a god of the game until he loses and then its on to the next one. I would say that one is not much better than the other.
What's wrong with that? It's basically how Sc2 has worked at the pro level since it's inception.
Beta/Late 2010 - Fruitdealer/Tester era. Early - Mid 2011 - Mvp/MC/Nestea era Late 2011 - Mvp/MMA/DRG era Early - Mid 2012 - MKP/DRG era Mid - Late 2012 - Life/Parting/Rain/Leenock/Patch Zerg era
Are you denying that players in Sc2 tend to be at the top for about 6 months maximum and then fall off still able to win tournament but never consistently stringing together GSL/MLG wins like Mvp, DRG and Life were able to do at their peaks?
Well in the Boston area, we have words for people like that, but I won't use it on TL. But it's called being a fair weather fan. They cheer when their team is winning, but disappear when they aren't. Real fan cheer when the team is playing. I still cheer for MC and willl until he quits. Same with MKP and the members of EG. I am not a fair weather fan, I even cheer when they lose.
Most Sc2 fans are a fan of the game more than players so we just like whoever has cool play and shows good games.
That is what a fair weather fan is, they don't care who is playing and just cheer for the winner because it is easy. They like to watch the winner and can’t deal with the disappointment, or the idea that they might have to wait to see their favorite player be awesome. Fans like myself and my father who waited 20 years or (nearly 60 in my fathers case) for the Sox to win a world series have little patience for fair weather fans.
People are never going to be like that for Sc2 because you don't grow up with a team like you do it in real sports.
Instead people support players for their country, region, race, team, playstyle etc..
Real sports are also a lot more consistent, your favourite team is a constant forever. When I first got into Sc2 my favourite players were Nestea, Fruit Dealer, Jinro and July and my favourite team was oGs. Three of those players don't even play anymore, Nestea plays but is a shadow of what he was and oGs has disbanded. I'd love for Nestea to come back but it's not going to happen, so naturally people move onto new players to cheer for who are active.
Real sports are no more consistent than Esports. Winning 5 super bowls in a row is unheard of, or 5 masters or any number of World Series. The Yankees are known for winning 26 world series in the life of the ball club, which dates back nearly 100 years. They are the only club with that many titles in all of professional sports. The only reason teams seem consistent in real sports is because their seasons take a full year. And people who cheer for a team one year, only to leave them when they lose next year.
Once again, you can cheer for the top player if you want, but don’t go out of your way to mock the people who are fans the guys who lost or are doing poorly.
It's next to impossible with stupid salary caps but they do this to keep all the teams competitive and level the playing field. There are consequences when you expand your league to the point the player pool just isn't the same, or expand to areas that aren't necessarily viable or market proven or how about lockouts between ownership and the players? The '94 lockout destroyed the Blue Jays in terms of attendance, mystique and losing core players. This doesn't even address the process of losing and what it does to your fan's morale to show up. Salary caps are a bitch and the game changes to maintaining your core and finding players for the supporting roles. Dynasties are a thing of the past.
It's fun to talk about such things but when we're talking about RTS gaming especially over here? I find it somewhat irrelevant because it's mostly based on individual achievements. In Korea, sure there's more emphasis on the Team Leagues but player's have said all the time they want that individual sense of accomplishment as well. Not only that, but the onus is truly on the players for them to be successful. They have a lot of responsibility. In the past we've seen certain players dominate the scene for small to lengthy periods of time whether it be Brood War, Warcraft 3 or SC2. It does happen. Regardless of the format like our Western Gauntlet Lans or long dragged out processes like your OSLs/GSLs/team leagues. Time and time again the Koreans have shown they can shine in both. Ofc it's only a weekend in a foreign place to them when they show up here and do there thing. It's like a holiday; whereas, if you want to compete in the GSL/OSL shindigs you're basically relocating. It's much easier to take a holiday compared to relocating. It's much easier on them. I'd like to see the correlation between Koreans joining/moving elsewhere and still finding some success. Polt will be fun to watch out for now that he's in Texas and found some success but I'm not sure when he finally moved back to Korea or how long he stayed inside the U.S.
Well Stephano is in it for the money. There is nothing wrong with that but with that philosophy you shouldn't be in korea. It's just too hard, it doesn't matter who you are it's still super hard. It's better for him to travel around NA/EU and try to win tournaments that doesn't get filled with top tier koreans.
Would've really liked to see him stay to see how good he could've become with a korean training environment
This news makes me think even higher of Naniwa and some of the other guys who have been over in korea for longer periods of time trying to become better players. Naniwa even was in a team house with only koreans who pretty much ostricized him. Stephano has said plenty of times that he is only in it for the money, and some think he is a cool kid for it while at the same time claiming he has what it takes to get deep in code s which is impossible if he doesnt change attiude imo.
I would give the spot to Naniwa...hes already going back to Korea and clearly wants to compete in the GSL. And if that wasn't enough, he already proved he belongs in code S. Sad thing to see Stephano leaving though .
On March 28 2013 03:59 dubRa wrote: The heroes of the past such as Jinro and Banjo are missed. We still have HuK and Naniwa though. We will never surrender!
If only the other team members were more inclusive perhaps the Koreans should brush up their English skills. I think you should treat players differently in a team and perhaps have a laxed schedule for someone like stephano.
On March 28 2013 03:44 DwD wrote: Well Stephano is in it for the money. There is nothing wrong with that but with that philosophy you shouldn't be in korea. It's just too hard, it doesn't matter who you are it's still super hard. It's better for him to travel around NA/EU and try to win tournaments that doesn't get filled with top tier koreans.
Would've really liked to see him stay to see how good he could've become with a korean training environment
Stephano doesn't know what he's in it for. It's easy to fall back on the money reason, but he also wants to win and do well... sometimes. The feeling I get from Stephano is that he's a young guy and doesn't know exactly what he wants to do, but Starcraft isn't really it.
We see a lot of progamers grapple with this. The don't truly enjoy the game, but they enjoy winning and some mornings they wake up inspired and say yeah I'm really gonna go for this, cue the Rocky music! They make some self-important tweets or facebook posts and their fans rally around them celebrating the player's newfound passion. A week later it's back to business as usual and it's a slow, dull road of ambivalence until retirement.
On March 28 2013 03:59 dubRa wrote: The heroes of the past such as Jinro and Banjo are missed. We still have HuK and Naniwa though. We will never surrender!
It's becoming painfully obvious that something needs to be done in terms of how players are paid. I would suggest tournament organizers start paying players similar to how fighters are paid. Each player gets paid per match with bonuses going to the winners of each match and maybe players who put on exciting matches for the fans which will help encourage more entertaining match ups. The all or nothing mentality isn't a sustainable business model if you want to keep e-sports alive or even attract top level players to compete in your tournaments.
When you see MVP, Life, Parting, MC, DRG, and Rain in the top 32 and it is honestly possible that none of them will get to the round of 4 because GSL is just that hard => you know that its just too much competition for a player like Stephano.
Not because of skillset => he has the skillset. But when you're used to winning effortlessly, its hard not to be disheartened.
Morale is important, I'm glad Stephano is stepping back.
On March 28 2013 04:05 archonOOid wrote: If only the other team members were more inclusive perhaps the Koreans should brush up their English skills. I think you should treat players differently in a team and perhaps have a laxed schedule for someone like stephano.
The inverse could be argued much more easily.
It's actually easier for an individual to make compromises than an entire team. Stephano obviously lacks the character traits that make someone a successful pro-gamer under the Korean formula. The Korean formula is also proven to work, so this isn't really a matter of "I think the way I train is better".
When you go to a place it is not the responsibility of the people who live there to make a bunch of compromises for you and allow you to call the shots. That's called entitlement, and people don't like having to pamper someone whose sense of entitlement is that high. It's also a waste of time and money. Airplane tickets aren't free and neither is accommodation for a lengthy stay. A coach doesn't volunteer his time at the whim of the trainee, nor does a coach have to treat everybody differently if his coaching style works. It's not like the guy has brain damage or something that warrants a more relaxed schedule, he's just lazy and ungrateful.
This guy has honestly wasted so many people's time it's disgusting and I'm amazed at the patience that everybody extends to him, especially his fans. How can anybody support someone who throws away opportunities as much as Stephano?
Coach Park doing his job, great news, this ain't about GSL its about Proleague and miracle maker Park is looking for the best. Soon we'll see more new dudes playing for EG-TL in Proleague, cant be otherwise.
I remember on the other topic, someone said that an anonymous on 4chan who have some connection with Korean pro scene said that Stephano was really unhappy with the EGTL teamhouse, he and the coach had racial arguments and almost got into a fight. That was when he wanted to drop GSL and went to IEM, but was stopped. I guess now he just wants to drop everything.
With how much Stephano boasts for funsies, he really took himself down a few levels by doing this. A really embarrassing and cowardly move from the person who's considered the top foreigner in SC2.
Not sure what people were expecting from Stephano in Korea.
Beside the fact that he hates living in Korea, doesn't speak their langage and have no friends there and whatnot, I don't think he was Code S material.
You need much more dedication to the game to be code S. Practicing a few hours here and there and not really caring and taking your talent as granted and that it will carry you through it won't get you a code S win. These guys play all the freaking time, they are in team houses where the only thing people do is play SC2 for 10 hours a day. They prepare for their matches and have a lot of support.
He will just continue to do what he does best, stomp foreigners where he doesn't need to prepare or care about the matches, which is good for him.
I know this is not about Naniwa - but I just want to say that at least he dares to lose in public, and then work hard to fight back to stand tall again. That is true spirit.
Stephano has been very clear that he is in this solely for the money, it is far easier to make money in international tournaments, and he gets better exposure for his sponsors. He has always made it clear this is a break from school for him so that he is financially secure going forward, and this makes perfect sense from his stated goals. I wish him the best of luck.
On March 28 2013 04:28 zanga wrote: I know this is not about Naniwa - but I just want to say that at least he dares to lose in public, and then work hard to fight back to stand tall again. That is true spirit.
Although Naniwa might lack modesty and humility at times, he does have something that Stephano lacks; a competitive spirit and desire to be the best SC2 player. I for one will cheer on Naniwa over Stephano going forward.
On March 28 2013 01:46 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote: [quote]
This is the kind of logic that's so funny about Stephano fans (it also applies for Nerchio, Naniwa and any other of the current hyped foreigners too).
We constantly have to suffer this double think of how when they win (or better yet not actually playing vs Koreans at all as this is when their hype is biggest) they're Code S quality, amongst the absolute best in the world and can beat anyone and take down any tournament including Code S.
When they lose however it's okay because they lost to good player and there's no shame in that apparently.
The foreigner fanboy however never makes the connection that beating top players like Last, MVP, Yoda, Life and Flash is what makes you a top player and consistently losing to these level of players (like Stephano has for months and months now) means you're not a top player.
Stephano got absolutely smashed at IEM and MLG, no if's no but's he was destroyed by better players.
Well I can say he did shitty and should have done better. That it is unacceptable to get beaten 3-0 and that is total crap. But you see, I am a Red Sox fan, so I know what slumps are. Unlike many fans in the SC2 scene, who are like weather vains and just band wagon to the next winning Korean player and call him a god of the game until he loses and then its on to the next one. I would say that one is not much better than the other.
What's wrong with that? It's basically how Sc2 has worked at the pro level since it's inception.
Beta/Late 2010 - Fruitdealer/Tester era. Early - Mid 2011 - Mvp/MC/Nestea era Late 2011 - Mvp/MMA/DRG era Early - Mid 2012 - MKP/DRG era Mid - Late 2012 - Life/Parting/Rain/Leenock/Patch Zerg era
Are you denying that players in Sc2 tend to be at the top for about 6 months maximum and then fall off still able to win tournament but never consistently stringing together GSL/MLG wins like Mvp, DRG and Life were able to do at their peaks?
Well in the Boston area, we have words for people like that, but I won't use it on TL. But it's called being a fair weather fan. They cheer when their team is winning, but disappear when they aren't. Real fan cheer when the team is playing. I still cheer for MC and willl until he quits. Same with MKP and the members of EG. I am not a fair weather fan, I even cheer when they lose.
Most Sc2 fans are a fan of the game more than players so we just like whoever has cool play and shows good games.
That is what a fair weather fan is, they don't care who is playing and just cheer for the winner because it is easy. They like to watch the winner and can’t deal with the disappointment, or the idea that they might have to wait to see their favorite player be awesome. Fans like myself and my father who waited 20 years or (nearly 60 in my fathers case) for the Sox to win a world series have little patience for fair weather fans.
People are never going to be like that for Sc2 because you don't grow up with a team like you do it in real sports.
Instead people support players for their country, region, race, team, playstyle etc..
Real sports are also a lot more consistent, your favourite team is a constant forever. When I first got into Sc2 my favourite players were Nestea, Fruit Dealer, Jinro and July and my favourite team was oGs. Three of those players don't even play anymore, Nestea plays but is a shadow of what he was and oGs has disbanded. I'd love for Nestea to come back but it's not going to happen, so naturally people move onto new players to cheer for who are active.
Real sports are no more consistent than Esports. Winning 5 super bowls in a row is unheard of, or 5 masters or any number of World Series. The Yankees are known for winning 26 world series in the life of the ball club, which dates back nearly 100 years. They are the only club with that many titles in all of professional sports. The only reason teams seem consistent in real sports is because their seasons take a full year. And people who cheer for a team one year, only to leave them when they lose next year.
Once again, you can cheer for the top player if you want, but don’t go out of your way to mock the people who are fans the guys who lost or are doing poorly.
Well maybe in terrible American sports because you have comical affirmative action rules.
And don't patronise me because aren't the Boston Red Sox the 2nd greatest team in the history of American baseball?
My football team Huddersfield Town have been basically total shit since the 1930s and have never been in the top division in my lifetime and yet 10-20k fans watch them every week.
Also absolutely loads of football teams have more than 26 titles.
The Red Sox didn’t win a world series for 86 years, it was called the Curse of the Bambino and it was a huge part of the lore of the city of Boston for years. They are a good baseball team, but not the second best for raw numbers(hopefully my father won’t read this). And I am talking about America sports, I don’t follow soccer at all, but I am sure that some clubs have a good number of titles. I don’t know about these “comical affirmative action rules” are, unless you are talking about salary caps for teams.
But this is what you get for calling me a fan boy and mindlessly cheering for Stephano.
Salary caps, the draft system and lack of relegation/promotion are absolutely retarded.
Well, in terms of overall results, his appearance in Code S and GSL was quite underwhelming. But it was nice to see the guy go to Korea at all, considering how he once said that he was going to retire to medical school.
I wonder if EG will renew his contract. You might say, " ARE YOU CRAZY HES THE BEST FOREIGNER!" and while this is true, I am not sure he is making EG very happy right now. Hes not much of a promoter the way the rest of the teams foreign players are. He is not cooperating with the top priorities of EGs A Team- wont play in GSL and Proleague. He has personality and skill, but without playing in those leagues, is he really offering EG enough to warrant the 100k a year investment? I would say no, and given the past behavioral issues and the efforts made to accomodate him without the return of practice, participation or promotion, I would actually be surprised if his contract is renewed next time around.
On March 28 2013 04:43 Irre wrote: I wonder if EG will renew his contract. You might say, " ARE YOU CRAZY HES THE BEST FOREIGNER!" and while this is true, I am not sure he is making EG very happy right now. Hes not much of a promoter the way the rest of the teams foreign players are. He is not cooperating with the top priorities of EGs A Team- wont play in GSL and Proleague. He has personality and skill, but without playing in those leagues, is he really offering EG enough to warrant the 100k a year investment? I would say no, and given the past behavioral issues and the efforts made to accomodate him without the return of practice, participation or promotion, I would actually be surprised if his contract is renewed next time around.
There's also the bad publicity and sponsor drama they got from the 15 year old girl situation.
On March 28 2013 01:39 Plansix wrote: [quote] Well to be fair, he go 3-0ed by a Kespa player, Last, in one of the most stacked brackets I have ever seen. Last then went 2-3 vs Life, who won MLG. He didn't lose to some scrub, but a guy who almost beat the winner of the entire event.
This is the kind of logic that's so funny about Stephano fans (it also applies for Nerchio, Naniwa and any other of the current hyped foreigners too).
We constantly have to suffer this double think of how when they win (or better yet not actually playing vs Koreans at all as this is when their hype is biggest) they're Code S quality, amongst the absolute best in the world and can beat anyone and take down any tournament including Code S.
When they lose however it's okay because they lost to good player and there's no shame in that apparently.
The foreigner fanboy however never makes the connection that beating top players like Last, MVP, Yoda, Life and Flash is what makes you a top player and consistently losing to these level of players (like Stephano has for months and months now) means you're not a top player.
Stephano got absolutely smashed at IEM and MLG, no if's no but's he was destroyed by better players.
Well I can say he did shitty and should have done better. That it is unacceptable to get beaten 3-0 and that is total crap. But you see, I am a Red Sox fan, so I know what slumps are. Unlike many fans in the SC2 scene, who are like weather vains and just band wagon to the next winning Korean player and call him a god of the game until he loses and then its on to the next one. I would say that one is not much better than the other.
What's wrong with that? It's basically how Sc2 has worked at the pro level since it's inception.
Beta/Late 2010 - Fruitdealer/Tester era. Early - Mid 2011 - Mvp/MC/Nestea era Late 2011 - Mvp/MMA/DRG era Early - Mid 2012 - MKP/DRG era Mid - Late 2012 - Life/Parting/Rain/Leenock/Patch Zerg era
Are you denying that players in Sc2 tend to be at the top for about 6 months maximum and then fall off still able to win tournament but never consistently stringing together GSL/MLG wins like Mvp, DRG and Life were able to do at their peaks?
Well in the Boston area, we have words for people like that, but I won't use it on TL. But it's called being a fair weather fan. They cheer when their team is winning, but disappear when they aren't. Real fan cheer when the team is playing. I still cheer for MC and willl until he quits. Same with MKP and the members of EG. I am not a fair weather fan, I even cheer when they lose.
Most Sc2 fans are a fan of the game more than players so we just like whoever has cool play and shows good games.
That is what a fair weather fan is, they don't care who is playing and just cheer for the winner because it is easy. They like to watch the winner and can’t deal with the disappointment, or the idea that they might have to wait to see their favorite player be awesome. Fans like myself and my father who waited 20 years or (nearly 60 in my fathers case) for the Sox to win a world series have little patience for fair weather fans.
People are never going to be like that for Sc2 because you don't grow up with a team like you do it in real sports.
Instead people support players for their country, region, race, team, playstyle etc..
Real sports are also a lot more consistent, your favourite team is a constant forever. When I first got into Sc2 my favourite players were Nestea, Fruit Dealer, Jinro and July and my favourite team was oGs. Three of those players don't even play anymore, Nestea plays but is a shadow of what he was and oGs has disbanded. I'd love for Nestea to come back but it's not going to happen, so naturally people move onto new players to cheer for who are active.
Real sports are no more consistent than Esports. Winning 5 super bowls in a row is unheard of, or 5 masters or any number of World Series. The Yankees are known for winning 26 world series in the life of the ball club, which dates back nearly 100 years. They are the only club with that many titles in all of professional sports. The only reason teams seem consistent in real sports is because their seasons take a full year. And people who cheer for a team one year, only to leave them when they lose next year.
Once again, you can cheer for the top player if you want, but don’t go out of your way to mock the people who are fans the guys who lost or are doing poorly.
It's next to impossible with stupid salary caps but they do this to keep all the teams competitive and level the playing field. There are consequences when you expand your league to the point the player pool just isn't the same, or expand to areas that aren't necessarily viable or market proven or how about lockouts between ownership and the players? The '94 lockout destroyed the Blue Jays in terms of attendance, mystique and losing core players. This doesn't even address the process of losing and what it does to your fan's morale to show up. Salary caps are a bitch and the game changes to maintaining your core and finding players for the supporting roles. Dynasties are a thing of the past.
It's fun to talk about such things but when we're talking about RTS gaming especially over here? I find it somewhat irrelevant because it's mostly based on individual achievements. In Korea, sure there's more emphasis on the Team Leagues but player's have said all the time they want that individual sense of accomplishment as well. Not only that, but the onus is truly on the players for them to be successful. They have a lot of responsibility. In the past we've seen certain players dominate the scene for small to lengthy periods of time whether it be Brood War, Warcraft 3 or SC2. It does happen. Regardless of the format like our Western Gauntlet Lans or long dragged out processes like your OSLs/GSLs/team leagues. Time and time again the Koreans have shown they can shine in both. Ofc it's only a weekend in a foreign place to them when they show up here and do there thing. It's like a holiday; whereas, if you want to compete in the GSL/OSL shindigs you're basically relocating. It's much easier to take a holiday compared to relocating. It's much easier on them. I'd like to see the correlation between Koreans joining/moving elsewhere and still finding some success. Polt will be fun to watch out for now that he's in Texas and found some success but I'm not sure when he finally moved back to Korea or how long he stayed inside the U.S.
Please don't call salary caps stupid, they make sense. As a hockey(toronto maple leafs)and a soccer(Fulhamfc) I support two teams at the middle to bottom of the barrel. However I cannot respect a team like man city who can just get a rich owner spend a billion in 3-4 years and have a championship to show for it. Salary caps force teams to use their money responsibly.
On March 28 2013 04:05 archonOOid wrote: If only the other team members were more inclusive perhaps the Koreans should brush up their English skills. I think you should treat players differently in a team and perhaps have a laxed schedule for someone like stephano.
The inverse could be argued much more easily.
It's actually easier for an individual to make compromises than an entire team. Stephano obviously lacks the character traits that make someone a successful pro-gamer under the Korean formula. The Korean formula is also proven to work, so this isn't really a matter of "I think the way I train is better".
When you go to a place it is not the responsibility of the people who live there to make a bunch of compromises for you and allow you to call the shots. That's called entitlement, and people don't like having to pamper someone whose sense of entitlement is that high. It's also a waste of time and money. Airplane tickets aren't free and neither is accommodation for a lengthy stay. A coach doesn't volunteer his time at the whim of the trainee, nor does a coach have to treat everybody differently if his coaching style works. It's not like the guy has brain damage or something that warrants a more relaxed schedule, he's just lazy and ungrateful.
This guy has honestly wasted so many people's time it's disgusting and I'm amazed at the patience that everybody extends to him, especially his fans. How can anybody support someone who throws away opportunities as much as Stephano?
This is a good post. Much of the same could be said with most foreigners in korea. Even in a recent Huk interview he talked about how hard it is in korea, the communication barrier, culture barrier, training differences etc. When asked if he tried to learn any korean to bridge the gap his answer was "no". How can you move to a country with an entirely different language and way of doing things and then complain about it without even trying to adapt to it?
I swear most foreigners think they just need to *be* in korea and it will all just magically make them better players, but none of them spend the time doing the work to integrate themselves into society so that it can actually work and be of benefit. And then they just complain about it.
Real sports are no more consistent than Esports. Winning 5 super bowls in a row is unheard of, or 5 masters or any number of World Series. The Yankees are known for winning 26 world series in the life of the ball club, which dates back nearly 100 years. They are the only club with that many titles in all of professional sports. The only reason teams seem consistent in real sports is because their seasons take a full year. And people who cheer for a team one year, only to leave them when they lose next year.
Once again, you can cheer for the top player if you want, but don’t go out of your way to mock the people who are fans the guys who lost or are doing poorly.
The football team I support have won 43 titles and it's about to be 44. That isn't even the record number of titles in that country lol.
On March 28 2013 01:46 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote: [quote]
This is the kind of logic that's so funny about Stephano fans (it also applies for Nerchio, Naniwa and any other of the current hyped foreigners too).
We constantly have to suffer this double think of how when they win (or better yet not actually playing vs Koreans at all as this is when their hype is biggest) they're Code S quality, amongst the absolute best in the world and can beat anyone and take down any tournament including Code S.
When they lose however it's okay because they lost to good player and there's no shame in that apparently.
The foreigner fanboy however never makes the connection that beating top players like Last, MVP, Yoda, Life and Flash is what makes you a top player and consistently losing to these level of players (like Stephano has for months and months now) means you're not a top player.
Stephano got absolutely smashed at IEM and MLG, no if's no but's he was destroyed by better players.
Well I can say he did shitty and should have done better. That it is unacceptable to get beaten 3-0 and that is total crap. But you see, I am a Red Sox fan, so I know what slumps are. Unlike many fans in the SC2 scene, who are like weather vains and just band wagon to the next winning Korean player and call him a god of the game until he loses and then its on to the next one. I would say that one is not much better than the other.
What's wrong with that? It's basically how Sc2 has worked at the pro level since it's inception.
Beta/Late 2010 - Fruitdealer/Tester era. Early - Mid 2011 - Mvp/MC/Nestea era Late 2011 - Mvp/MMA/DRG era Early - Mid 2012 - MKP/DRG era Mid - Late 2012 - Life/Parting/Rain/Leenock/Patch Zerg era
Are you denying that players in Sc2 tend to be at the top for about 6 months maximum and then fall off still able to win tournament but never consistently stringing together GSL/MLG wins like Mvp, DRG and Life were able to do at their peaks?
Well in the Boston area, we have words for people like that, but I won't use it on TL. But it's called being a fair weather fan. They cheer when their team is winning, but disappear when they aren't. Real fan cheer when the team is playing. I still cheer for MC and willl until he quits. Same with MKP and the members of EG. I am not a fair weather fan, I even cheer when they lose.
Most Sc2 fans are a fan of the game more than players so we just like whoever has cool play and shows good games.
That is what a fair weather fan is, they don't care who is playing and just cheer for the winner because it is easy. They like to watch the winner and can’t deal with the disappointment, or the idea that they might have to wait to see their favorite player be awesome. Fans like myself and my father who waited 20 years or (nearly 60 in my fathers case) for the Sox to win a world series have little patience for fair weather fans.
People are never going to be like that for Sc2 because you don't grow up with a team like you do it in real sports.
Instead people support players for their country, region, race, team, playstyle etc..
Real sports are also a lot more consistent, your favourite team is a constant forever. When I first got into Sc2 my favourite players were Nestea, Fruit Dealer, Jinro and July and my favourite team was oGs. Three of those players don't even play anymore, Nestea plays but is a shadow of what he was and oGs has disbanded. I'd love for Nestea to come back but it's not going to happen, so naturally people move onto new players to cheer for who are active.
Real sports are no more consistent than Esports. Winning 5 super bowls in a row is unheard of, or 5 masters or any number of World Series. The Yankees are known for winning 26 world series in the life of the ball club, which dates back nearly 100 years. They are the only club with that many titles in all of professional sports. The only reason teams seem consistent in real sports is because their seasons take a full year. And people who cheer for a team one year, only to leave them when they lose next year.
Once again, you can cheer for the top player if you want, but don’t go out of your way to mock the people who are fans the guys who lost or are doing poorly.
It's next to impossible with stupid salary caps but they do this to keep all the teams competitive and level the playing field. There are consequences when you expand your league to the point the player pool just isn't the same, or expand to areas that aren't necessarily viable or market proven or how about lockouts between ownership and the players? The '94 lockout destroyed the Blue Jays in terms of attendance, mystique and losing core players. This doesn't even address the process of losing and what it does to your fan's morale to show up. Salary caps are a bitch and the game changes to maintaining your core and finding players for the supporting roles. Dynasties are a thing of the past.
It's fun to talk about such things but when we're talking about RTS gaming especially over here? I find it somewhat irrelevant because it's mostly based on individual achievements. In Korea, sure there's more emphasis on the Team Leagues but player's have said all the time they want that individual sense of accomplishment as well. Not only that, but the onus is truly on the players for them to be successful. They have a lot of responsibility. In the past we've seen certain players dominate the scene for small to lengthy periods of time whether it be Brood War, Warcraft 3 or SC2. It does happen. Regardless of the format like our Western Gauntlet Lans or long dragged out processes like your OSLs/GSLs/team leagues. Time and time again the Koreans have shown they can shine in both. Ofc it's only a weekend in a foreign place to them when they show up here and do there thing. It's like a holiday; whereas, if you want to compete in the GSL/OSL shindigs you're basically relocating. It's much easier to take a holiday compared to relocating. It's much easier on them. I'd like to see the correlation between Koreans joining/moving elsewhere and still finding some success. Polt will be fun to watch out for now that he's in Texas and found some success but I'm not sure when he finally moved back to Korea or how long he stayed inside the U.S.
Please don't call salary caps stupid, they make sense. As a hockey(toronto maple leafs)and a soccer(Fulhamfc) I support two teams at the middle to bottom of the barrel. However I cannot respect a team like man city who can just get a rich owner spend a billion in 3-4 years and have a championship to show for it. Salary caps force teams to use their money responsibly.
As a German, I must say, prohibiting rich people from taking over clubs completely works quite nicely without installing a salary cap and it allows clubs to profit from making wise decisions on the financial side of things.
On March 28 2013 04:43 Irre wrote: I wonder if EG will renew his contract. You might say, " ARE YOU CRAZY HES THE BEST FOREIGNER!" and while this is true, I am not sure he is making EG very happy right now. Hes not much of a promoter the way the rest of the teams foreign players are. He is not cooperating with the top priorities of EGs A Team- wont play in GSL and Proleague. He has personality and skill, but without playing in those leagues, is he really offering EG enough to warrant the 100k a year investment? I would say no, and given the past behavioral issues and the efforts made to accomodate him without the return of practice, participation or promotion, I would actually be surprised if his contract is renewed next time around.
There's also the bad publicity and sponsor drama they got from the 15 year old girl situation.
He's the king of controversial issues (even back when he was on Mill.), but he's also winning tournaments and playing really well overall, which is another thing that helps advertise EG and its sponsors. I'm sure they've taken that into consideration as well, and so I don't see him leaving EG anytime soon.
Well I can say he did shitty and should have done better. That it is unacceptable to get beaten 3-0 and that is total crap. But you see, I am a Red Sox fan, so I know what slumps are. Unlike many fans in the SC2 scene, who are like weather vains and just band wagon to the next winning Korean player and call him a god of the game until he loses and then its on to the next one. I would say that one is not much better than the other.
What's wrong with that? It's basically how Sc2 has worked at the pro level since it's inception.
Beta/Late 2010 - Fruitdealer/Tester era. Early - Mid 2011 - Mvp/MC/Nestea era Late 2011 - Mvp/MMA/DRG era Early - Mid 2012 - MKP/DRG era Mid - Late 2012 - Life/Parting/Rain/Leenock/Patch Zerg era
Are you denying that players in Sc2 tend to be at the top for about 6 months maximum and then fall off still able to win tournament but never consistently stringing together GSL/MLG wins like Mvp, DRG and Life were able to do at their peaks?
Well in the Boston area, we have words for people like that, but I won't use it on TL. But it's called being a fair weather fan. They cheer when their team is winning, but disappear when they aren't. Real fan cheer when the team is playing. I still cheer for MC and willl until he quits. Same with MKP and the members of EG. I am not a fair weather fan, I even cheer when they lose.
Most Sc2 fans are a fan of the game more than players so we just like whoever has cool play and shows good games.
That is what a fair weather fan is, they don't care who is playing and just cheer for the winner because it is easy. They like to watch the winner and can’t deal with the disappointment, or the idea that they might have to wait to see their favorite player be awesome. Fans like myself and my father who waited 20 years or (nearly 60 in my fathers case) for the Sox to win a world series have little patience for fair weather fans.
People are never going to be like that for Sc2 because you don't grow up with a team like you do it in real sports.
Instead people support players for their country, region, race, team, playstyle etc..
Real sports are also a lot more consistent, your favourite team is a constant forever. When I first got into Sc2 my favourite players were Nestea, Fruit Dealer, Jinro and July and my favourite team was oGs. Three of those players don't even play anymore, Nestea plays but is a shadow of what he was and oGs has disbanded. I'd love for Nestea to come back but it's not going to happen, so naturally people move onto new players to cheer for who are active.
Real sports are no more consistent than Esports. Winning 5 super bowls in a row is unheard of, or 5 masters or any number of World Series. The Yankees are known for winning 26 world series in the life of the ball club, which dates back nearly 100 years. They are the only club with that many titles in all of professional sports. The only reason teams seem consistent in real sports is because their seasons take a full year. And people who cheer for a team one year, only to leave them when they lose next year.
Once again, you can cheer for the top player if you want, but don’t go out of your way to mock the people who are fans the guys who lost or are doing poorly.
It's next to impossible with stupid salary caps but they do this to keep all the teams competitive and level the playing field. There are consequences when you expand your league to the point the player pool just isn't the same, or expand to areas that aren't necessarily viable or market proven or how about lockouts between ownership and the players? The '94 lockout destroyed the Blue Jays in terms of attendance, mystique and losing core players. This doesn't even address the process of losing and what it does to your fan's morale to show up. Salary caps are a bitch and the game changes to maintaining your core and finding players for the supporting roles. Dynasties are a thing of the past.
It's fun to talk about such things but when we're talking about RTS gaming especially over here? I find it somewhat irrelevant because it's mostly based on individual achievements. In Korea, sure there's more emphasis on the Team Leagues but player's have said all the time they want that individual sense of accomplishment as well. Not only that, but the onus is truly on the players for them to be successful. They have a lot of responsibility. In the past we've seen certain players dominate the scene for small to lengthy periods of time whether it be Brood War, Warcraft 3 or SC2. It does happen. Regardless of the format like our Western Gauntlet Lans or long dragged out processes like your OSLs/GSLs/team leagues. Time and time again the Koreans have shown they can shine in both. Ofc it's only a weekend in a foreign place to them when they show up here and do there thing. It's like a holiday; whereas, if you want to compete in the GSL/OSL shindigs you're basically relocating. It's much easier to take a holiday compared to relocating. It's much easier on them. I'd like to see the correlation between Koreans joining/moving elsewhere and still finding some success. Polt will be fun to watch out for now that he's in Texas and found some success but I'm not sure when he finally moved back to Korea or how long he stayed inside the U.S.
Please don't call salary caps stupid, they make sense. As a hockey(toronto maple leafs)and a soccer(Fulhamfc) I support two teams at the middle to bottom of the barrel. However I cannot respect a team like man city who can just get a rich owner spend a billion in 3-4 years and have a championship to show for it. Salary caps force teams to use their money responsibly.
As a German, I must say, prohibiting rich people from taking over clubs completely works quite nicely without installing a salary cap and it allows clubs to profit from making wise decisions on the financial side of things.
Honestly, I don't get why people are derailing this thread with a discussion about salary caps...
In response to this, however, "prohibiting rich people from taking over clubs completely works..." has to be one of the most insane things I've ever read on TL forums.
A). They're businesses B). Super-rich people have the amount of money required to own a major sports club; rich people can only afford season tickets. C). Salary caps are rules created by the leagues themselves, not just silly conventions. In order to be a member of a league, a team must adhere to its rules. Enforcing poverty as a rule sounds daft. D). This thread is supposed to be about Stephano leaving Korea. Can we please stop derailing?
In the words of IdrA, sc2 players in Korean training houses have very little freedom to do what they want to do when they want to do it. So, in other words, if a player wants to go fishing on this day or that day, it just doesn't happen. 14 hours a day are dedicated to starcraft 2, possibly an hour here or there becomes free time (breakfast, lunch and dinner) and so on. He even said in a separate interview that sometimes it is too much and players start making mistakes just because they are playing far too much.
Coupling the above paragraph with the idea that Code S is very "cut throat" and the odds are stacked against anyone who gets in to it, I don't blame stephano for doing what he's doing. He has much better odds with EU and NA tournaments than he does with the GSL.
honestly its the lack of tournaments and the social atmosphere/social customs. staying in a foreign country is harder than you think.
Like lets say if GSL all of sudden decided to host only in America I can assure you only a few koreans would want to stay in america. Only a few people want to live in a foreign country for an extended period of time away from their friends and people they can actually fully communicate with in their native language.
Basically the way to improve the rate of foreigners staying in Korea is have more tournaments/have gsl be shorter. Instead of a 3 month tournament(however long a gsl tournament is) make it a 1 month thing or something like that and have lots of other small tournaments on the side. Of course having friends there is also a good factor(but thats something gom cant control)
I wish I had a six figure job where I could tell my boss to fuck off, and choose what continent I want to play in. People are really sympathetic saying "he's just a kid" and "he doesn't fit in", but he's being a bit of a selfish brat here. He's not a lone player for now, he's being paid a lot of money to be PART OF A TEAM. He's not casting, he's not marketing, and without results his followers will stagnate and die off soon. It's been months since he really impressed anyone. If I were Alex I would not renew his contract after all this. If stephano had real conviction he should voluntarily accept a pay cut. How many of you here work for a lot less money? Do you get to dictate to your bosses what project YOU want to work on? Think about it before you shed your crocodile tears.
On March 28 2013 00:24 FeyFey wrote: Good decision, Korea really seems to pull Stephano down a few levels. Some people just work differently. Hope he can get himself in a good mood again.
On March 28 2013 04:28 zanga wrote: I know this is not about Naniwa - but I just want to say that at least he dares to lose in public, and then work hard to fight back to stand tall again. That is true spirit.
Although Naniwa might lack modesty and humility at times, he does have something that Stephano lacks; a competitive spirit and desire to be the best SC2 player. I for one will cheer on Naniwa over Stephano going forward.
I agree, but his biggest weakness is that he is really tilting when he is losing imo.
On March 28 2013 05:29 Enders116 wrote: In the words of IdrA, sc2 players in Korean training houses have very little freedom to do what they want to do when they want to do it. So, in other words, if a player wants to go fishing on this day or that day, it just doesn't happen. 14 hours a day are dedicated to starcraft 2, possibly an hour here or there becomes free time (breakfast, lunch and dinner) and so on. He even said in a separate interview that sometimes it is too much and players start making mistakes just because they are playing far too much.
Coupling the above paragraph with the idea that Code S is very "cut throat" and the odds are stacked against anyone who gets in to it, I don't blame stephano for doing what he's doing. He has much better odds with EU and NA tournaments than he does with the GSL.
finally someone with a brain here,
being jailed in an korean(or any country where your language is not spoken) apartment is not what you need to be happy and good at your work
PS. i have been many time in that situation, at a certain point the only thing you think is: when i can go home?
On March 28 2013 05:38 Snoodles wrote: I wish I had a six figure job where I could tell my boss to fuck off, and choose what continent I want to play in. People are really sympathetic saying "he's just a kid" and "he doesn't fit in", but he's being a bit of a selfish brat here. He's not a lone player for now, he's being paid a lot of money to be PART OF A TEAM. He's not casting, he's not marketing, and without results his followers will stagnate and die off soon. It's been months since he really impressed anyone. If I were Alex I would not renew his contract after all this. If stephano had real conviction he should voluntarily accept a pay cut. How many of you here work for a lot less money? Do you get to dictate to your bosses what project YOU want to work on? Think about it before you shed your crocodile tears.
Ha he's worth more to EG in foreign tournaments, especially winning them. Hilarious that you think Alex is pissed that Stephano doesn't want to stay in Korea. If that were the case he'd keep idra and thorzain there as well. Demuslim would have been there already too
Nobody here is saying it's not a sound decision... It's.just a shame that white guys keep getting chances to partake in Code S and keep squandering them.
On March 28 2013 05:30 rift wrote: This is why MajOr has my utmost respect. No salary, no seed, just passion and dedication.
I'd add Naniwa and Scarlett to that short list.
I get Naniwa, but Scarlett hasn't been doing this long enough. And I'm pretty sure she has a salary so it doesn't fit anyway.
With respect to Scarlett it's the seed comment. She said she wouldn't take a seed in GSL before and very recently. She apparently already rejected a seed.
Stephano is not obligated to care about the GSL, the Korean scene, or competing with the very best in the world. Unlike Major (and all of us, forum mortals) he's not a Korean fanboy, he can't be inspired by being on Korean team or in a Korean legendary tournament. He doesn't care about StarCraft history or culture. Jaedong comes and asks to take Stephano's autograph, and at that point Stephano basically doesn't even know who's Jaedong. Stephano is just a French boy that discovered he likes playing some game a lot, and apparently was good in it, and was making good money. He doesn't care about "gg", "pp" / no other chat -rules; he keeps using chat when it's not allowed and has his own cheers to opponents.
He's just not like the others, and what would inspire someone like Major or Naniwa would not inspire Stephano, because he doesn't care. I personally find that a little romantic, beautiful and pure. And in a way respect Stephano for being like this.
p.s. A lot of people mistake this behavior for arrogance, when it's more like sincere indifference.
On March 28 2013 05:29 Enders116 wrote: In the words of IdrA, sc2 players in Korean training houses have very little freedom to do what they want to do when they want to do it. So, in other words, if a player wants to go fishing on this day or that day, it just doesn't happen. 14 hours a day are dedicated to starcraft 2, possibly an hour here or there becomes free time (breakfast, lunch and dinner) and so on. He even said in a separate interview that sometimes it is too much and players start making mistakes just because they are playing far too much.
Coupling the above paragraph with the idea that Code S is very "cut throat" and the odds are stacked against anyone who gets in to it, I don't blame stephano for doing what he's doing. He has much better odds with EU and NA tournaments than he does with the GSL.
finally someone with a brain here,
being jailed in an korean(or any country where your language is not spoken) apartment is not what you need to be happy and good at your work
PS. i have been many time in that situation, at a certain point the only thing you think is: when i can go home?
It is when the Koreans seem to be the only people willing to put in the consistent 14-hour grinds.
Why should someone getting 100k be able to dictate their day-to-day routine? My mum used to work from 6am to 8pm in a foreign country, in a job where women were the exception, working a role to try to integrate more minorities/women into that working environment. I didn't see her complaining about it for 8 years because the £££ was the end result, and that's certainly a more hostile work environment than sitting in an apartment having all your meals/laundry done for you so that you can put 100% into being a better player. You want to play foreigner in Korea and see the sights? Well tough shit kid, your there to work not to muck about.
The fact of the matter is, Stephano/pretty much every single foreigner seems to lack the hunger/motivation that Koreans possess. Read BoXeR's book, he acheived what he did by practicing so hard that even his PRACTICE PARTNERS were saying "I'm tired, let's stop". And even then he kept going. That's the kind of dedication that will lead a foreigner to take the first GSL trophy.
And I do have hope for Maj0r, I just hope that he keeps grinding it out. I'm encouraged by the fact I almost never see him streaming; IMO if you want to be the best you can't do that when your focusing on streaming as you are not getting the quality of practice required to be one of the world's best.
Personally, I'm a bit surprised that people still find relevance in foreigners competing in the Korean scene. They're done. Part of me hopes that Naniwa/Major is going to surprise us all, but quite frankly I'd also much prefer it if we skipped straight to the point where we've sorted out the wheat from the chaff and finally got some good games again. Pretty tired of being disappointed in "the next foreign star".
On March 28 2013 05:29 Enders116 wrote: In the words of IdrA, sc2 players in Korean training houses have very little freedom to do what they want to do when they want to do it. So, in other words, if a player wants to go fishing on this day or that day, it just doesn't happen. 14 hours a day are dedicated to starcraft 2, possibly an hour here or there becomes free time (breakfast, lunch and dinner) and so on. He even said in a separate interview that sometimes it is too much and players start making mistakes just because they are playing far too much.
Coupling the above paragraph with the idea that Code S is very "cut throat" and the odds are stacked against anyone who gets in to it, I don't blame stephano for doing what he's doing. He has much better odds with EU and NA tournaments than he does with the GSL.
finally someone with a brain here,
being jailed in an korean(or any country where your language is not spoken) apartment is not what you need to be happy and good at your work
PS. i have been many time in that situation, at a certain point the only thing you think is: when i can go home?
It is when the Koreans seem to be the only people willing to put in the consistent 14-hour grinds.
Why should someone getting 100k be able to dictate their day-to-day routine? My mum used to work from 6am to 8pm in a foreign country, in a job where women were the exception, working a role to try to integrate more minorities/women into that working environment. I didn't see her complaining about it for 8 years because the £££ was the end result, and that's certainly a more hostile work environment than sitting in an apartment having all your meals/laundry done for you so that you can put 100% into being a better player. You want to play foreigner in Korea and see the sights? Well tough shit kid, your there to work not to muck about.
The fact of the matter is, Stephano/pretty much every single foreigner seems to lack the hunger/motivation that Koreans possess. Read BoXeR's book, he acheived what he did by practicing so hard that even his PRACTICE PARTNERS were saying "I'm tired, let's stop". And even then he kept going. That's the kind of dedication that will lead a foreigner to take the first GSL trophy.
And I do have hope for Maj0r, I just hope that he keeps grinding it out. I'm encouraged by the fact I almost never see him streaming; IMO if you want to be the best you can't do that when your focusing on streaming as you are not getting the quality of practice required to be one of the world's best.
It may not be about motivation or drive. From someone who has worked 70-80 work weeks for a few months, it was hard enough even with being able to visit with friends and family on my day off. I am not sure I could have worked that much or that hard if I lived in a house where I couldn’t speak with anyone and all my friends and family were a 16 hour flight away. I don’t think I could work as much as I do now with out my girlfriend at home. If I was transplanted to Korea to do legal work for 14 hours a day, I would make it a few months at max and then peace out.
Look at this is way. What if you we took a Kespa house and deposited it in New York City? Assuming they had magic internet and could play on the Korean server, do you think they would still be able to practice as much or as well? I think it would have a negative effect on their practicing, personally, because they were so far away from home, friends and their support network.
On March 28 2013 05:29 Enders116 wrote: In the words of IdrA, sc2 players in Korean training houses have very little freedom to do what they want to do when they want to do it. So, in other words, if a player wants to go fishing on this day or that day, it just doesn't happen. 14 hours a day are dedicated to starcraft 2, possibly an hour here or there becomes free time (breakfast, lunch and dinner) and so on. He even said in a separate interview that sometimes it is too much and players start making mistakes just because they are playing far too much.
Coupling the above paragraph with the idea that Code S is very "cut throat" and the odds are stacked against anyone who gets in to it, I don't blame stephano for doing what he's doing. He has much better odds with EU and NA tournaments than he does with the GSL.
finally someone with a brain here,
being jailed in an korean(or any country where your language is not spoken) apartment is not what you need to be happy and good at your work
PS. i have been many time in that situation, at a certain point the only thing you think is: when i can go home?
It is when the Koreans seem to be the only people willing to put in the consistent 14-hour grinds.
Why should someone getting 100k be able to dictate their day-to-day routine? My mum used to work from 6am to 8pm in a foreign country, in a job where women were the exception, working a role to try to integrate more minorities/women into that working environment. I didn't see her complaining about it for 8 years because the £££ was the end result, and that's certainly a more hostile work environment than sitting in an apartment having all your meals/laundry done for you so that you can put 100% into being a better player. You want to play foreigner in Korea and see the sights? Well tough shit kid, your there to work not to muck about.
The fact of the matter is, Stephano/pretty much every single foreigner seems to lack the hunger/motivation that Koreans possess. Read BoXeR's book, he acheived what he did by practicing so hard that even his PRACTICE PARTNERS were saying "I'm tired, let's stop". And even then he kept going. That's the kind of dedication that will lead a foreigner to take the first GSL trophy.
And I do have hope for Maj0r, I just hope that he keeps grinding it out. I'm encouraged by the fact I almost never see him streaming; IMO if you want to be the best you can't do that when your focusing on streaming as you are not getting the quality of practice required to be one of the world's best.
It may not be about motivation or drive. From someone who has worked 70-80 work weeks for a few months, it was hard enough even with being able to visit with friends and family on my day off. I am not sure I could have worked that much or that hard if I lived in a house where I couldn’t speak with anyone and all my friends and family were a 16 hour flight away. I don’t think I could work as much as I do now with out my girlfriend at home. If I was transplanted to Korea to do legal work for 14 hours a day, I would make it a few months at max and then peace out.
Look at this is way. What if you we took a Kespa house and deposited it in New York City? Assuming they had magic internet and could play on the Korean server, do you think they would still be able to practice as much or as well? I think it would have a negative effect on their practicing, personally, because they were so far away from home, friends and their support network.
You misread his post as a 'where' this occurs instead of 'what' is missing. Stay in your home country, but practise as much as the koreans. Grinding leads to absolute perfection of something because SC2 is primarily mechanical.
Meh, I think it's been clear for a long time now that he's not the Korean killer so many fanboys portrayed him as. His ZvZ has always been pretty dismal, ZvP was really strong while he used the 200/200 roach maxout and pretty much any given Zerg had strong ZvT. At best he could have been a ZvP sniper but in Korea, even that is a huge stretch. Overall, good choice by him imo. I hope EGTL stops trying to field foreigners to gain viewers and actually focuses on winning games. I might start using my PL subscription again....
I think the majority of fans want to see Stephano competing in the GSL, but I never got the impression that is what Stephano wanted. This is a guy who wasn't even sure he was going to stick with SC2 not that long ago.
There's absolutely nothing wrong with living a more laid back life while consistently placing in the money in international tournaments. Anti-fans will try to use this as proof that he's not as good as people think he is. I think the only thing it proves is that he cares more about having fun and winning money than being the undisputed world champion.
On March 28 2013 05:29 Enders116 wrote: In the words of IdrA, sc2 players in Korean training houses have very little freedom to do what they want to do when they want to do it. So, in other words, if a player wants to go fishing on this day or that day, it just doesn't happen. 14 hours a day are dedicated to starcraft 2, possibly an hour here or there becomes free time (breakfast, lunch and dinner) and so on. He even said in a separate interview that sometimes it is too much and players start making mistakes just because they are playing far too much.
Coupling the above paragraph with the idea that Code S is very "cut throat" and the odds are stacked against anyone who gets in to it, I don't blame stephano for doing what he's doing. He has much better odds with EU and NA tournaments than he does with the GSL.
finally someone with a brain here,
being jailed in an korean(or any country where your language is not spoken) apartment is not what you need to be happy and good at your work
PS. i have been many time in that situation, at a certain point the only thing you think is: when i can go home?
It is when the Koreans seem to be the only people willing to put in the consistent 14-hour grinds.
Why should someone getting 100k be able to dictate their day-to-day routine? My mum used to work from 6am to 8pm in a foreign country, in a job where women were the exception, working a role to try to integrate more minorities/women into that working environment. I didn't see her complaining about it for 8 years because the £££ was the end result, and that's certainly a more hostile work environment than sitting in an apartment having all your meals/laundry done for you so that you can put 100% into being a better player. You want to play foreigner in Korea and see the sights? Well tough shit kid, your there to work not to muck about.
The fact of the matter is, Stephano/pretty much every single foreigner seems to lack the hunger/motivation that Koreans possess. Read BoXeR's book, he acheived what he did by practicing so hard that even his PRACTICE PARTNERS were saying "I'm tired, let's stop". And even then he kept going. That's the kind of dedication that will lead a foreigner to take the first GSL trophy.
And I do have hope for Maj0r, I just hope that he keeps grinding it out. I'm encouraged by the fact I almost never see him streaming; IMO if you want to be the best you can't do that when your focusing on streaming as you are not getting the quality of practice required to be one of the world's best.
It may not be about motivation or drive. From someone who has worked 70-80 work weeks for a few months, it was hard enough even with being able to visit with friends and family on my day off. I am not sure I could have worked that much or that hard if I lived in a house where I couldn’t speak with anyone and all my friends and family were a 16 hour flight away. I don’t think I could work as much as I do now with out my girlfriend at home. If I was transplanted to Korea to do legal work for 14 hours a day, I would make it a few months at max and then peace out.
Look at this is way. What if you we took a Kespa house and deposited it in New York City? Assuming they had magic internet and could play on the Korean server, do you think they would still be able to practice as much or as well? I think it would have a negative effect on their practicing, personally, because they were so far away from home, friends and their support network.
You misread his post as a 'where' this occurs instead of 'what' is missing. Stay in your home country, but practise as much as the koreans. Grinding leads to absolute perfection of something because SC2 is primarily mechanical.
That is 100% incorrect. If you play for 14 hour on the NA ladder, it does not equal playing 14 hours on the Korean ladder.
On March 28 2013 04:43 Irre wrote: I wonder if EG will renew his contract. You might say, " ARE YOU CRAZY HES THE BEST FOREIGNER!" and while this is true, I am not sure he is making EG very happy right now. Hes not much of a promoter the way the rest of the teams foreign players are. He is not cooperating with the top priorities of EGs A Team- wont play in GSL and Proleague. He has personality and skill, but without playing in those leagues, is he really offering EG enough to warrant the 100k a year investment? I would say no, and given the past behavioral issues and the efforts made to accomodate him without the return of practice, participation or promotion, I would actually be surprised if his contract is renewed next time around.
There's also the bad publicity and sponsor drama they got from the 15 year old girl situation.
He's the king of controversial issues (even back when he was on Mill.), but he's also winning tournaments and playing really well overall, which is another thing that helps advertise EG and its sponsors. I'm sure they've taken that into consideration as well, and so I don't see him leaving EG anytime soon.
On March 28 2013 04:43 Irre wrote: I wonder if EG will renew his contract. You might say, " ARE YOU CRAZY HES THE BEST FOREIGNER!" and while this is true, I am not sure he is making EG very happy right now. Hes not much of a promoter the way the rest of the teams foreign players are. He is not cooperating with the top priorities of EGs A Team- wont play in GSL and Proleague. He has personality and skill, but without playing in those leagues, is he really offering EG enough to warrant the 100k a year investment? I would say no, and given the past behavioral issues and the efforts made to accomodate him without the return of practice, participation or promotion, I would actually be surprised if his contract is renewed next time around.
There's also the bad publicity and sponsor drama they got from the 15 year old girl situation.
He's the king of controversial issues (even back when he was on Mill.), but he's also winning tournaments and playing really well overall, which is another thing that helps advertise EG and its sponsors. I'm sure they've taken that into consideration as well, and so I don't see him leaving EG anytime soon.
He's winning tournaments? When?
Liquipidia? They list all his wins in great detail.
On March 28 2013 04:43 Irre wrote: I wonder if EG will renew his contract. You might say, " ARE YOU CRAZY HES THE BEST FOREIGNER!" and while this is true, I am not sure he is making EG very happy right now. Hes not much of a promoter the way the rest of the teams foreign players are. He is not cooperating with the top priorities of EGs A Team- wont play in GSL and Proleague. He has personality and skill, but without playing in those leagues, is he really offering EG enough to warrant the 100k a year investment? I would say no, and given the past behavioral issues and the efforts made to accomodate him without the return of practice, participation or promotion, I would actually be surprised if his contract is renewed next time around.
There's also the bad publicity and sponsor drama they got from the 15 year old girl situation.
He's the king of controversial issues (even back when he was on Mill.), but he's also winning tournaments and playing really well overall, which is another thing that helps advertise EG and its sponsors. I'm sure they've taken that into consideration as well, and so I don't see him leaving EG anytime soon.
He's winning tournaments? When?
Liquipidia? They list all his wins in great detail.
You mean 1 win in a Premier LAN with Koreans in the last 18 months?
On March 28 2013 05:29 Enders116 wrote: In the words of IdrA, sc2 players in Korean training houses have very little freedom to do what they want to do when they want to do it. So, in other words, if a player wants to go fishing on this day or that day, it just doesn't happen. 14 hours a day are dedicated to starcraft 2, possibly an hour here or there becomes free time (breakfast, lunch and dinner) and so on. He even said in a separate interview that sometimes it is too much and players start making mistakes just because they are playing far too much.
Coupling the above paragraph with the idea that Code S is very "cut throat" and the odds are stacked against anyone who gets in to it, I don't blame stephano for doing what he's doing. He has much better odds with EU and NA tournaments than he does with the GSL.
finally someone with a brain here,
being jailed in an korean(or any country where your language is not spoken) apartment is not what you need to be happy and good at your work
PS. i have been many time in that situation, at a certain point the only thing you think is: when i can go home?
It is when the Koreans seem to be the only people willing to put in the consistent 14-hour grinds.
Why should someone getting 100k be able to dictate their day-to-day routine? My mum used to work from 6am to 8pm in a foreign country, in a job where women were the exception, working a role to try to integrate more minorities/women into that working environment. I didn't see her complaining about it for 8 years because the £££ was the end result, and that's certainly a more hostile work environment than sitting in an apartment having all your meals/laundry done for you so that you can put 100% into being a better player. You want to play foreigner in Korea and see the sights? Well tough shit kid, your there to work not to muck about.
The fact of the matter is, Stephano/pretty much every single foreigner seems to lack the hunger/motivation that Koreans possess. Read BoXeR's book, he acheived what he did by practicing so hard that even his PRACTICE PARTNERS were saying "I'm tired, let's stop". And even then he kept going. That's the kind of dedication that will lead a foreigner to take the first GSL trophy.
And I do have hope for Maj0r, I just hope that he keeps grinding it out. I'm encouraged by the fact I almost never see him streaming; IMO if you want to be the best you can't do that when your focusing on streaming as you are not getting the quality of practice required to be one of the world's best.
It may not be about motivation or drive. From someone who has worked 70-80 work weeks for a few months, it was hard enough even with being able to visit with friends and family on my day off. I am not sure I could have worked that much or that hard if I lived in a house where I couldn’t speak with anyone and all my friends and family were a 16 hour flight away. I don’t think I could work as much as I do now with out my girlfriend at home. If I was transplanted to Korea to do legal work for 14 hours a day, I would make it a few months at max and then peace out.
Look at this is way. What if you we took a Kespa house and deposited it in New York City? Assuming they had magic internet and could play on the Korean server, do you think they would still be able to practice as much or as well? I think it would have a negative effect on their practicing, personally, because they were so far away from home, friends and their support network.
You misread his post as a 'where' this occurs instead of 'what' is missing. Stay in your home country, but practise as much as the koreans. Grinding leads to absolute perfection of something because SC2 is primarily mechanical.
That is 100% incorrect. If you play for 14 hour on the NA ladder, it does not equal playing 14 hours on the Korean ladder.
Exactly buddy. 14 hours on NA isn't like the KR server. And who is putting in 14 hours on the NA server anyway? Maybe straight ladder sessions occasionally but certainly not top gamer vs top gamer hard core for hours on end. I watch alot of Demuslim/Thorzain and other foreign Terrans, and they all start complaining about being tired/go off-air after about 6-10 hours. And that's streaming on the NA servers which is not doing them any good aside from generating revenue.
I'm sure Koreans would do slightly worse in NA however I feel that the work ethic that the best of them seem to have would carry over and they certainly wouldn't fall off as much as foreigners do in Korea. However I feel this is how it stands: Koreans are traditionally the best at the game, so there is huge competition. They work their asses off to try to be the best they can be, because Koreans get fans outside of Korea by having fantastic plays and results. These guys will work their asses off and heavily integrate coaching/practicing with partners in order to be the best and develop the game further.
Then you look at top foreigners; they got to where they are practicing at home generally, then they generate a fan base which is the determining factor in picking up a team/salary. I can't speak in full details but I can't help feel like these guys are just content to be "the best of the west" rather than having that extra drive that will push them through adversity. I guess they prioritize making the safe living streaming, being a "community figure" etc. rather than making the dedicated grind to be the best, which obviously is a huge risk, but someone needs to take it if we are ever going to have a GSL champion from outside Korea...
Oh people. It is a lot more than just Code S being hard. Living in a completely different country in a teamhouse is probably very very different from what Stephano has been used to. Add the language issue and the fact that while in Korea you can't practically attend any international tournaments.
I personally think that Stephano is one of the players who have the healthiest approach to pro-gaming. He sees it as something he can do for a while but not forever and he also understands the importance of other aspects in life. Clearly sacrifing personal happiness just to compete in a tournament organised every two months is worth it, not.
On March 28 2013 04:43 Irre wrote: I wonder if EG will renew his contract. You might say, " ARE YOU CRAZY HES THE BEST FOREIGNER!" and while this is true, I am not sure he is making EG very happy right now. Hes not much of a promoter the way the rest of the teams foreign players are. He is not cooperating with the top priorities of EGs A Team- wont play in GSL and Proleague. He has personality and skill, but without playing in those leagues, is he really offering EG enough to warrant the 100k a year investment? I would say no, and given the past behavioral issues and the efforts made to accomodate him without the return of practice, participation or promotion, I would actually be surprised if his contract is renewed next time around.
There's also the bad publicity and sponsor drama they got from the 15 year old girl situation.
He's the king of controversial issues (even back when he was on Mill.), but he's also winning tournaments and playing really well overall, which is another thing that helps advertise EG and its sponsors. I'm sure they've taken that into consideration as well, and so I don't see him leaving EG anytime soon.
He's winning tournaments? When?
Liquipidia? They list all his wins in great detail.
You mean 1 win in a Premier LAN with Koreans in the last 18 months?
Oh I see what you did there, you took out all the tournments without Koreans in them and then said he won once in 18 months. I get it. So events without Koreans don't count and placing high in events also doesn't count. Well I am sure that sponsors are using that metric you created there.
Stephano's style don't use mutalisk, but in HotS mutalisk is necessary in ZvZ and ZvT (speedvacs anoying must be destroyed!) so... I think he should retire and start his graduation.
On March 28 2013 04:43 Irre wrote: I wonder if EG will renew his contract. You might say, " ARE YOU CRAZY HES THE BEST FOREIGNER!" and while this is true, I am not sure he is making EG very happy right now. Hes not much of a promoter the way the rest of the teams foreign players are. He is not cooperating with the top priorities of EGs A Team- wont play in GSL and Proleague. He has personality and skill, but without playing in those leagues, is he really offering EG enough to warrant the 100k a year investment? I would say no, and given the past behavioral issues and the efforts made to accomodate him without the return of practice, participation or promotion, I would actually be surprised if his contract is renewed next time around.
There's also the bad publicity and sponsor drama they got from the 15 year old girl situation.
He's the king of controversial issues (even back when he was on Mill.), but he's also winning tournaments and playing really well overall, which is another thing that helps advertise EG and its sponsors. I'm sure they've taken that into consideration as well, and so I don't see him leaving EG anytime soon.
He's winning tournaments? When?
Liquipidia? They list all his wins in great detail.
You mean 1 win in a Premier LAN with Koreans in the last 18 months?
Oh I see what you did there, you took out all the tournments without Koreans in them and then said he won once in 18 months. I get it. So events without Koreans don't count and placing high in events also doesn't count. Well I am sure that sponsors are using that metric you created there.
taking foreigners seriously gets harder and harder, why pull out of the highest level of competition to concentrate on the "lower tier" of competition. I just dont get it sure he gets the easier money but does he grow as a player doing so? im not so sure
On March 28 2013 05:29 Enders116 wrote: In the words of IdrA, sc2 players in Korean training houses have very little freedom to do what they want to do when they want to do it. So, in other words, if a player wants to go fishing on this day or that day, it just doesn't happen. 14 hours a day are dedicated to starcraft 2, possibly an hour here or there becomes free time (breakfast, lunch and dinner) and so on. He even said in a separate interview that sometimes it is too much and players start making mistakes just because they are playing far too much.
Coupling the above paragraph with the idea that Code S is very "cut throat" and the odds are stacked against anyone who gets in to it, I don't blame stephano for doing what he's doing. He has much better odds with EU and NA tournaments than he does with the GSL.
finally someone with a brain here,
being jailed in an korean(or any country where your language is not spoken) apartment is not what you need to be happy and good at your work
PS. i have been many time in that situation, at a certain point the only thing you think is: when i can go home?
It's called a job. You guys view it as prison. They're being paid to play; other guys are being professional about it. They understand the requirements. It's rare that you see Star players complain about their teams and it only happens in certain situations and if the player doesn't bring it. Guess what happens? They get benched.
lol @ the hardasses pretending they know better than Stephano whether he has passion and dedication and whether it's best or most honorable for him to stay in Korea. No one should withstand social isolation and unhappiness for the sake of pleasing some forum nerds who like watching the absolute highest level of Starcraft.
On March 28 2013 05:29 Enders116 wrote: In the words of IdrA, sc2 players in Korean training houses have very little freedom to do what they want to do when they want to do it. So, in other words, if a player wants to go fishing on this day or that day, it just doesn't happen. 14 hours a day are dedicated to starcraft 2, possibly an hour here or there becomes free time (breakfast, lunch and dinner) and so on. He even said in a separate interview that sometimes it is too much and players start making mistakes just because they are playing far too much.
Coupling the above paragraph with the idea that Code S is very "cut throat" and the odds are stacked against anyone who gets in to it, I don't blame stephano for doing what he's doing. He has much better odds with EU and NA tournaments than he does with the GSL.
finally someone with a brain here,
being jailed in an korean(or any country where your language is not spoken) apartment is not what you need to be happy and good at your work
PS. i have been many time in that situation, at a certain point the only thing you think is: when i can go home?
It's called a job. You guys view it as prison. They're being paid to play; other guys are being professional about it. They understand the requirements. It's rare that you see Star players complain about their teams and it only happens in certain situations and if the player doesn't bring it. Guess what happens? They get benched.
He is also getting paid when he plays outside of Korea. Heck, he can even earn more there. So why should you choose a shitty workplace over a much better one?
On March 28 2013 07:04 Doodsmack wrote: lol @ the hardasses pretending they know better than Stephano whether he has passion and dedication and whether it's best or most honorable for him to stay in Korea. No one should withstand social isolation and unhappiness for the sake of pleasing some forum nerds who like watching the absolute highest level of Starcraft.
I agree 100% that he should do whatever he wants to do, or feels like he needs to do. And obviously he knows all that better than anyone here does. Like I said before: GL to him, and I hope he does extremely well wherever he is.
But I don't really respect the attitude I see, and for better or worse, that's why I am not a big fan of his. But then again, I doubt he gives a rat's patootie if I'm a fan; he's got plenty already and he doesn't seem like the kind of dude that cares so much about that kind of thing.
If Korea ain't for him, than it ain't for him. But as for me, I want to watch players who are either the best right now, or want to be the best in the near future (and for better or worse: Korea is where you go to be the best). Having fun isn't fun for me to watch. Kicking ass is. That's my two half-pennies.
On March 28 2013 05:29 Enders116 wrote: In the words of IdrA, sc2 players in Korean training houses have very little freedom to do what they want to do when they want to do it. So, in other words, if a player wants to go fishing on this day or that day, it just doesn't happen. 14 hours a day are dedicated to starcraft 2, possibly an hour here or there becomes free time (breakfast, lunch and dinner) and so on. He even said in a separate interview that sometimes it is too much and players start making mistakes just because they are playing far too much.
Coupling the above paragraph with the idea that Code S is very "cut throat" and the odds are stacked against anyone who gets in to it, I don't blame stephano for doing what he's doing. He has much better odds with EU and NA tournaments than he does with the GSL.
finally someone with a brain here,
being jailed in an korean(or any country where your language is not spoken) apartment is not what you need to be happy and good at your work
PS. i have been many time in that situation, at a certain point the only thing you think is: when i can go home?
It's called a job. You guys view it as prison. They're being paid to play; other guys are being professional about it. They understand the requirements. It's rare that you see Star players complain about their teams and it only happens in certain situations and if the player doesn't bring it. Guess what happens? They get benched.
It's a shitty job. A job should be 35-45 hours per week, not 10-12 a day. Not liking korean practice regimes is perfectly understandable.
On March 28 2013 05:29 Enders116 wrote: In the words of IdrA, sc2 players in Korean training houses have very little freedom to do what they want to do when they want to do it. So, in other words, if a player wants to go fishing on this day or that day, it just doesn't happen. 14 hours a day are dedicated to starcraft 2, possibly an hour here or there becomes free time (breakfast, lunch and dinner) and so on. He even said in a separate interview that sometimes it is too much and players start making mistakes just because they are playing far too much.
Coupling the above paragraph with the idea that Code S is very "cut throat" and the odds are stacked against anyone who gets in to it, I don't blame stephano for doing what he's doing. He has much better odds with EU and NA tournaments than he does with the GSL.
finally someone with a brain here,
being jailed in an korean(or any country where your language is not spoken) apartment is not what you need to be happy and good at your work
PS. i have been many time in that situation, at a certain point the only thing you think is: when i can go home?
It's called a job. You guys view it as prison. They're being paid to play; other guys are being professional about it. They understand the requirements. It's rare that you see Star players complain about their teams and it only happens in certain situations and if the player doesn't bring it. Guess what happens? They get benched.
It's a shitty job. A job should be 35-45 hours per week, not 10-12 a day. Not liking korean practice regimes is perfectly understandable.
i dont think you'll go far taking this as "a job". i'm sure boxer just took this as a job and did minimal work and became the best. no pain no gain? fuck that, no pain all gain.
i for one think team houses requiring a player to play 10-14 is bad, i optimistically say team houses dont require you to do that but recommend it. all the key athletes throughout history has a common trait: first to come, last to leave. they dont do that because its required, they do it to have an small edge against competition.
stephano should do what he wants but expecting #1 with minimal effort will never ever happen.
On March 28 2013 05:29 Enders116 wrote: In the words of IdrA, sc2 players in Korean training houses have very little freedom to do what they want to do when they want to do it. So, in other words, if a player wants to go fishing on this day or that day, it just doesn't happen. 14 hours a day are dedicated to starcraft 2, possibly an hour here or there becomes free time (breakfast, lunch and dinner) and so on. He even said in a separate interview that sometimes it is too much and players start making mistakes just because they are playing far too much.
Coupling the above paragraph with the idea that Code S is very "cut throat" and the odds are stacked against anyone who gets in to it, I don't blame stephano for doing what he's doing. He has much better odds with EU and NA tournaments than he does with the GSL.
On March 28 2013 05:29 Enders116 wrote: In the words of IdrA, sc2 players in Korean training houses have very little freedom to do what they want to do when they want to do it. So, in other words, if a player wants to go fishing on this day or that day, it just doesn't happen. 14 hours a day are dedicated to starcraft 2, possibly an hour here or there becomes free time (breakfast, lunch and dinner) and so on. He even said in a separate interview that sometimes it is too much and players start making mistakes just because they are playing far too much.
Coupling the above paragraph with the idea that Code S is very "cut throat" and the odds are stacked against anyone who gets in to it, I don't blame stephano for doing what he's doing. He has much better odds with EU and NA tournaments than he does with the GSL.
finally someone with a brain here,
being jailed in an korean(or any country where your language is not spoken) apartment is not what you need to be happy and good at your work
PS. i have been many time in that situation, at a certain point the only thing you think is: when i can go home?
It's called a job. You guys view it as prison. They're being paid to play; other guys are being professional about it. They understand the requirements. It's rare that you see Star players complain about their teams and it only happens in certain situations and if the player doesn't bring it. Guess what happens? They get benched.
Inclined to agree.. As a human yeah by all rights leave korea and enjoy your life. But if you want immortality in this game you gotta literally give it your all. Seriously never seen boxer, oov, bisu, nada, savior, flash or jaedong complain about practice hours (esp when they go beyond whats required by their teams) in bw.. stork maybe with his cellphone games though haha
Working 10+ hours a day is pretty standard in a lot of industries (ibanking/law/medical/etc)...
It comes down to a choice between the easy money and trying to be the best. It's an easier choice for some people than others. It's funny though how the Western pros like to look down on the Korean system, when they have yet to find some sort of effective alternative.
On March 28 2013 04:43 Irre wrote: I wonder if EG will renew his contract. You might say, " ARE YOU CRAZY HES THE BEST FOREIGNER!" and while this is true, I am not sure he is making EG very happy right now. Hes not much of a promoter the way the rest of the teams foreign players are. He is not cooperating with the top priorities of EGs A Team- wont play in GSL and Proleague. He has personality and skill, but without playing in those leagues, is he really offering EG enough to warrant the 100k a year investment? I would say no, and given the past behavioral issues and the efforts made to accomodate him without the return of practice, participation or promotion, I would actually be surprised if his contract is renewed next time around.
There's also the bad publicity and sponsor drama they got from the 15 year old girl situation.
He's the king of controversial issues (even back when he was on Mill.), but he's also winning tournaments and playing really well overall, which is another thing that helps advertise EG and its sponsors. I'm sure they've taken that into consideration as well, and so I don't see him leaving EG anytime soon.
He's winning tournaments? When?
Liquipidia? They list all his wins in great detail.
You mean 1 win in a Premier LAN with Koreans in the last 18 months?
Oh I see what you did there, you took out all the tournments without Koreans in them and then said he won once in 18 months. I get it. So events without Koreans don't count and placing high in events also doesn't count. Well I am sure that sponsors are using that metric you created there.
korea isn't for everyone. stephano's like, what, 19? just turned 20? he's said before he's planned on going to university soon anyway.
if the korean environment isn't his thing, and stephano understands the pros/cons (mostly cons) of leaving the korean infrastructure for a more familiar but maybe less effective western system... It's like, whatever. who are we to judge?
On March 28 2013 04:43 Irre wrote: I wonder if EG will renew his contract. You might say, " ARE YOU CRAZY HES THE BEST FOREIGNER!" and while this is true, I am not sure he is making EG very happy right now. Hes not much of a promoter the way the rest of the teams foreign players are. He is not cooperating with the top priorities of EGs A Team- wont play in GSL and Proleague. He has personality and skill, but without playing in those leagues, is he really offering EG enough to warrant the 100k a year investment? I would say no, and given the past behavioral issues and the efforts made to accomodate him without the return of practice, participation or promotion, I would actually be surprised if his contract is renewed next time around.
There's also the bad publicity and sponsor drama they got from the 15 year old girl situation.
He's the king of controversial issues (even back when he was on Mill.), but he's also winning tournaments and playing really well overall, which is another thing that helps advertise EG and its sponsors. I'm sure they've taken that into consideration as well, and so I don't see him leaving EG anytime soon.
He's winning tournaments? When?
Liquipidia? They list all his wins in great detail.
You mean 1 win in a Premier LAN with Koreans in the last 18 months?
Oh I see what you did there, you took out all the tournments without Koreans in them and then said he won once in 18 months. I get it. So events without Koreans don't count and placing high in events also doesn't count. Well I am sure that sponsors are using that metric you created there.
That's not what he said. He said that he won one tournament in 18 months that had Koreans in it. How did he take out all the other tournaments?
On March 28 2013 05:29 Enders116 wrote: In the words of IdrA, sc2 players in Korean training houses have very little freedom to do what they want to do when they want to do it. So, in other words, if a player wants to go fishing on this day or that day, it just doesn't happen. 14 hours a day are dedicated to starcraft 2, possibly an hour here or there becomes free time (breakfast, lunch and dinner) and so on. He even said in a separate interview that sometimes it is too much and players start making mistakes just because they are playing far too much.
Coupling the above paragraph with the idea that Code S is very "cut throat" and the odds are stacked against anyone who gets in to it, I don't blame stephano for doing what he's doing. He has much better odds with EU and NA tournaments than he does with the GSL.
finally someone with a brain here,
being jailed in an korean(or any country where your language is not spoken) apartment is not what you need to be happy and good at your work
PS. i have been many time in that situation, at a certain point the only thing you think is: when i can go home?
It's called a job. You guys view it as prison. They're being paid to play; other guys are being professional about it. They understand the requirements. It's rare that you see Star players complain about their teams and it only happens in certain situations and if the player doesn't bring it. Guess what happens? They get benched.
It's a shitty job. A job should be 35-45 hours per week, not 10-12 a day. Not liking korean practice regimes is perfectly understandable.
i dont think you'll go far taking this as "a job". i'm sure boxer just took this as a job and did minimal work and became the best. no pain no gain? fuck that, no pain all gain.
i for one think team houses requiring a player to play 10-14 is bad, i optimistically say team houses dont require you to do that but recommend it. all the key athletes throughout history has a common trait: first to come, last to leave. they dont do that because its required, they do it to have an small edge against competition.
stephano should do what he wants but expecting #1 with minimal effort will never ever happen.
I echo this sentiment. As a kid I would stay on the driveway shooting free-throws till 10-11pm even in the dead of Canadian winter because I wanted to be the best. Obviously I didn't have to but that's what it demands. It was cold, uncomfortable, but come high school tryouts I got picked because my lay-ups and free-throws were spot-on from days worth of training.
I mean a lot of these guys obviously have natural talent at the game, but no one is naturally talented enough to be the best without these hours. Read the MKP documentary by CNN, yes it's overtly negative but if you read between the lines, MKP was putting in so many hours that his parent's started to seriously worry about him. I think it's just a lot easier for a foreigner who is very talented to be happy with the money/still get the fame because we expect Koreans to beat them, then it is for Koreans to say "well i'm just going to be second best, and make my career because of my personality." At the end of the day someone like Stephano who is young and suddenly finds himself fairly well-off from a VIDEO GAME is probably not going to have developed the kind of self-discipline and mental tenacity that the Micheal Jordan's would have. This is evidenced by the fact that when they are put in adverse conditions they seem to methodically all succumb and give up.
And honestly, feeling sorry for gamer's who "have to play"(key word PLAY) 14 hours a day when it is their passion and ultimately a pastime that we have turned into a career, is wrong. Becoming a top SC player takes nowhere near the dedication that it takes to be a professional sportsmen in any other sport, and we are never going to be respected as much as those acitivies if our role models consistently prove to us that they don't have what it takes to hang with the big boys.
Korea is no place for someone who can't compete at the highest level like that (no insult at all), you are much much better off just attending foreign tournaments where you are much better known and you do not need to invest so much of your life into your career. It's a thousand times easier for koreans to play in korea, no need to give up everything just to get better at a video game.
On March 28 2013 04:43 Irre wrote: I wonder if EG will renew his contract. You might say, " ARE YOU CRAZY HES THE BEST FOREIGNER!" and while this is true, I am not sure he is making EG very happy right now. Hes not much of a promoter the way the rest of the teams foreign players are. He is not cooperating with the top priorities of EGs A Team- wont play in GSL and Proleague. He has personality and skill, but without playing in those leagues, is he really offering EG enough to warrant the 100k a year investment? I would say no, and given the past behavioral issues and the efforts made to accomodate him without the return of practice, participation or promotion, I would actually be surprised if his contract is renewed next time around.
There's also the bad publicity and sponsor drama they got from the 15 year old girl situation.
He's the king of controversial issues (even back when he was on Mill.), but he's also winning tournaments and playing really well overall, which is another thing that helps advertise EG and its sponsors. I'm sure they've taken that into consideration as well, and so I don't see him leaving EG anytime soon.
He's winning tournaments? When?
Liquipidia? They list all his wins in great detail.
You mean 1 win in a Premier LAN with Koreans in the last 18 months?
Oh I see what you did there, you took out all the tournments without Koreans in them and then said he won once in 18 months. I get it. So events without Koreans don't count and placing high in events also doesn't count. Well I am sure that sponsors are using that metric you created there.
Events without Koreans don't count.
Your witty, thought out, one line responses are adding a lot to the discussion. You should keep those up, because they are really bring up some issues worth talking about.
The only way to be surprised by this is if he had won a GSL title easily and decided to pull out. Stephano is only interested in SC2 until he stops getting money consistently from it. He's been pretty up front about it and that's a reason why I respect him. He's actually treating it like a job, because it is. Once this job starts sucking ass for him there really is no reason for him to stay when he has schooling lined up for something that he wants to do. Also getting out of Korea means more streaming at NA/EU friendly times and more money in his pocket. He was never cut out for Korea but, at least he decided to try it out.
It will be interesting to see how his results are in the future.
On March 28 2013 07:37 Hrrrrm wrote: The only way to be surprised by this is if he had won a GSL title easily and decided to pull out. Stephano is only interested in SC2 until he stops getting money consistently from it. He's been pretty up front about it and that's a reason why I respect him. He's actually treating it like a job, because it is. Once this job starts sucking ass for him there really is no reason for him to stay when he has schooling lined up for something that he wants to do. Also getting out of Korea means more streaming at NA/EU friendly times and more money in his pocket. He was never cut out for Korea but, at least he decided to try it out.
It will be interesting to see how his results are in the future.
I agree.
Well EG decided more than he decided to try it out.
Not entirely surprising, the situation at the EG-TL house wasn't very good and was being improved upon but still wasn't ideal. Nobody speaks your language hardly at all making doing anything out of playing difficult, and he seemed very re missed about that fact.
Overall it's probably better for EG to have a happy stephano crushing in foreign tournaments then an unhappy stephano struggling in korea.
I always thought it was odd that EG would want their star player to stay in Korea competing in Korean events when their market is the western world. Stephano would yield a much higher ROI being sent to MLG, Dreamhack, NASL, and other conventions than being stuck in Korean miserable.
Perhaps if Stephano were to take an interest in Korean culture and try to learn the language maybe cross promotion between EG's Korean players might be more attractive but that is too much to ask of someone who dedicates a large portion of their time playing and trying to win at what is his job.
I wonder what this will mean for EGTL, I hope they plan to pick up some players to make up for the shallow roster. Players like Coca, Alive, and Oz are too good to pass up. Seeing how most ESF teams don't even provide salaries it shouldn't take much to entice free agents.
@TeslasPigeon: If Stephano were able to produce some good results in GSL/Korea, that would be MORE than enough positive exposure to make up for him missing some European tournaments. For fans of Proleague and GSL like me, just seeing him compete is already good positive exposure for EG. Now that he's pulling out, it actually works as negative exposure to the brand, imo.
I'm still pulling for EG-TL, though. #gogo foreigners!
On March 28 2013 07:55 Jacmert wrote: @TeslasPigeon: If Stephano were able to produce some good results in GSL/Korea, that would be MORE than enough positive exposure to make up for him missing some European tournaments. For fans of Proleague and GSL like me, just seeing him compete is already good positive exposure for EG. Now that he's pulling out, it actually works as negative exposure to the brand, imo.
I'm still pulling for EG-TL, though. #gogo foreigners!
I'm sorry but the amount of people that watch DH and MLG dwarf PL and GSL. You have western tournaments that pull in over a million uniques per events for sc2.
The hardcore fans of starcraft are a small amount, not to mention that this segment will still continue to be fans regardless of Stephano's decision. It is a much wiser from a marketing standpoint to increase your viewer and fan base, you aren't going to accomplish this in Korea. Especially for a game where the numbers aren't exactly there compared to western events and spectators.
On March 28 2013 07:55 Jacmert wrote: @TeslasPigeon: If Stephano were able to produce some good results in GSL/Korea, that would be MORE than enough positive exposure to make up for him missing some European tournaments. For fans of Proleague and GSL like me, just seeing him compete is already good positive exposure for EG. Now that he's pulling out, it actually works as negative exposure to the brand, imo.
I'm still pulling for EG-TL, though. #gogo foreigners!
I'm sorry but the amount of people that watch DH and MLG dwarf PL and GSL. You have western tournaments that pull in over a million uniques per events for sc2.
The hardcore fans of starcraft are a small amount, not to mention that this segment will still continue to be fans regardless of Stephano's decision. It is a much wiser from a marketing standpoint to increase your viewer and fan base, you aren't going to accomplish this in Korea. Especially for a game where the numbers aren't exactly there compared to western events and spectators.
A lot of people watch GSL. There's a reason they're the only SC2 related esport company that actually make a profit.
On March 28 2013 07:55 Jacmert wrote: @TeslasPigeon: If Stephano were able to produce some good results in GSL/Korea, that would be MORE than enough positive exposure to make up for him missing some European tournaments. For fans of Proleague and GSL like me, just seeing him compete is already good positive exposure for EG. Now that he's pulling out, it actually works as negative exposure to the brand, imo.
I'm still pulling for EG-TL, though. #gogo foreigners!
I'm sorry but the amount of people that watch DH and MLG dwarf PL and GSL. You have western tournaments that pull in over a million uniques per events for sc2.
The hardcore fans of starcraft are a small amount, not to mention that this segment will still continue to be fans regardless of Stephano's decision. It is a much wiser from a marketing standpoint to increase your viewer and fan base, you aren't going to accomplish this in Korea. Especially for a game where the numbers aren't exactly there compared to western events and spectators.
A lot of people watch GSL. There's a reason they're the only SC2 related esport company that actually make a profit.
MLG is making money and I'm pretty sure DH isn't hurting either.
What I don't get from reading threads defending stephano that say "he is in it for the money, good choice" etc etc is why people actually support him? Think of it like an amoral corporation doing some action, any action, purely for their own profit. If that action helps a person, you would support it(but the corp doesnt care as long as they are paid) or they do something you dont like(and the corp doesnt care as long as they are paid), why would you give a shit about the corporations goals? In a free market the amoral corporation does stuff, and if its bad, they get punished by the consumer. Similarly, if you're fan of seeing foreigners in korea or generally playing the best players and trying to be the best, would you not support that person regardless of what they think? And if Stephano is in it only for the money and has no interest in being the best, playing the best, or playing in the hardest league should you not think thats a shitty ass thing regardless of what he himself thinks? Why the hell are you supporting him if his actions are bad for the viewers, including yourself?
On March 28 2013 08:25 Maghetti wrote: What I don't get from reading threads defending stephano that say "he is in it for the money, good choice" etc etc is why people actually support him? Think of it like an amoral corporation doing some action, any action, purely for their own profit. If that action helps a person, you would support it(but the corp doesnt care as long as they are paid) or they do something you dont like(and the corp doesnt care as long as they are paid), why would you give a shit about the corporations goals? In a free market the amoral corporation does stuff, and if its bad, they get punished by the consumer. Similarly, if you're fan of seeing foreigners in korea or generally playing the best players and trying to be the best, would you not support that person regardless of what they think? And if Stephano is in it only for the money and has no interest in being the best, playing the best, or playing in the hardest league should you not think thats a shitty ass thing regardless of what he himself thinks? Why the hell are you supporting him if his actions are bad for the viewers, including yourself?
1. Stephano isn't a corporation and shouldn't be thought of as one. 2. A sc2 player only has a short amount of years to compete at the highest level. They should be making as much money as possible in that time frame, especially since they are putting of school/work. 3. If Stephano isn't happy in Korea, why should he be forced to stay there? It will do him no good to stay in an environment he doesn't like. It won't make him a better player. He will just be unhappy. 4. His actions aren't bad for the viewers at all. If anything its better. His fanbase isn't in korea. This way we get to see him play in more foreign tournaments and stream in much more friendly hours, rather than at 4am for Code S.
On March 28 2013 08:25 Maghetti wrote: What I don't get from reading threads defending stephano that say "he is in it for the money, good choice" etc etc is why people actually support him? Think of it like an amoral corporation doing some action, any action, purely for their own profit. If that action helps a person, you would support it(but the corp doesnt care as long as they are paid) or they do something you dont like(and the corp doesnt care as long as they are paid), why would you give a shit about the corporations goals? In a free market the amoral corporation does stuff, and if its bad, they get punished by the consumer. Similarly, if you're fan of seeing foreigners in korea or generally playing the best players and trying to be the best, would you not support that person regardless of what they think? And if Stephano is in it only for the money and has no interest in being the best, playing the best, or playing in the hardest league should you not think thats a shitty ass thing regardless of what he himself thinks? Why the hell are you supporting him if his actions are bad for the viewers, including yourself?
1. Stephano isn't a corporation and shouldn't be thought of as one. 2. A sc2 player only has a short amount of years to compete at the highest level. They should be making as much money as possible in that time frame, especially since they are putting of school/work. 3. If Stephano isn't happy in Korea, why should he be forced to stay there? It will do him no good to stay in an environment he doesn't like. It won't make him a better player. He will just be unhappy. 4. His actions aren't bad for the viewers at all. If anything its better. His fanbase isn't in korea. This way we get to see him play in more foreign tournaments and stream in much more friendly hours, rather than at 4am for Code S.
1. Yeah but the aim to make money as the only goal is exactly what corporations do. 2. Come on, you're doing it again. Looking at it from HIS perspective. The viewer perspective is to see the best matches. in MMA we want to see Anderson Silva vs another champion because it is a great fight. In starcraft the viewer wants to see stephano vs whoever the hell it happens to be you and others want to see him against. 3. He isn't forced to. Hell he could quit and become a pop star if he wants, the point is not what he wants, it is what the fans want. Do the fans want to see him become a pop star? No, they want to see him make foreigners matter in the scene and the fans should feel negative about his leaving korea and hurting this desire of fans. 4. People want to see foreigners succeed vs koreans and win GSLs(not me but many people).
So, why are you being his spokesman instead of voicing your own desires?
On March 28 2013 08:25 Maghetti wrote: What I don't get from reading threads defending stephano that say "he is in it for the money, good choice" etc etc is why people actually support him? Think of it like an amoral corporation doing some action, any action, purely for their own profit. If that action helps a person, you would support it(but the corp doesnt care as long as they are paid) or they do something you dont like(and the corp doesnt care as long as they are paid), why would you give a shit about the corporations goals? In a free market the amoral corporation does stuff, and if its bad, they get punished by the consumer. Similarly, if you're fan of seeing foreigners in korea or generally playing the best players and trying to be the best, would you not support that person regardless of what they think? And if Stephano is in it only for the money and has no interest in being the best, playing the best, or playing in the hardest league should you not think thats a shitty ass thing regardless of what he himself thinks? Why the hell are you supporting him if his actions are bad for the viewers, including yourself?
1. Stephano isn't a corporation and shouldn't be thought of as one. 2. A sc2 player only has a short amount of years to compete at the highest level. They should be making as much money as possible in that time frame, especially since they are putting of school/work. 3. If Stephano isn't happy in Korea, why should he be forced to stay there? It will do him no good to stay in an environment he doesn't like. It won't make him a better player. He will just be unhappy. 4. His actions aren't bad for the viewers at all. If anything its better. His fanbase isn't in korea. This way we get to see him play in more foreign tournaments and stream in much more friendly hours, rather than at 4am for Code S.
1. Yeah but the aim to make money as the only goal is exactly what corporations do. 2. Come on, you're doing it again. Looking at it from HIS perspective. The viewer perspective is to see the best matches. in MMA we want to see Anderson Silva vs another champion because it is a great fight. In starcraft the viewer wants to see stephano vs whoever the hell it happens to be you and others want to see him against. 3. He isn't forced to. Hell he could quit and become a pop star if he wants, the point is not what he wants, it is what the fans want. Do the fans want to see him become a pop star? No, they want to see him make foreigners matter in the scene and the fans should feel negative about his leaving korea and hurting this desire of fans. 4. People want to see foreigners succeed vs koreans and win GSLs(not me but many people).
So, why are you being his spokesman instead of voicing your own desires?
because i don't think a fans desire should be to make the player miserable? Sorry that I view Stephano as an individual. I don't think any of his fans should be upset that he isn't staying in Korea when they know he isn't happy there. You aren't really a fan of his if you feel that way.
On March 28 2013 08:25 Maghetti wrote: What I don't get from reading threads defending stephano that say "he is in it for the money, good choice" etc etc is why people actually support him? Think of it like an amoral corporation doing some action, any action, purely for their own profit. If that action helps a person, you would support it(but the corp doesnt care as long as they are paid) or they do something you dont like(and the corp doesnt care as long as they are paid), why would you give a shit about the corporations goals? In a free market the amoral corporation does stuff, and if its bad, they get punished by the consumer. Similarly, if you're fan of seeing foreigners in korea or generally playing the best players and trying to be the best, would you not support that person regardless of what they think? And if Stephano is in it only for the money and has no interest in being the best, playing the best, or playing in the hardest league should you not think thats a shitty ass thing regardless of what he himself thinks? Why the hell are you supporting him if his actions are bad for the viewers, including yourself?
1. Stephano isn't a corporation and shouldn't be thought of as one. 2. A sc2 player only has a short amount of years to compete at the highest level. They should be making as much money as possible in that time frame, especially since they are putting of school/work. 3. If Stephano isn't happy in Korea, why should he be forced to stay there? It will do him no good to stay in an environment he doesn't like. It won't make him a better player. He will just be unhappy. 4. His actions aren't bad for the viewers at all. If anything its better. His fanbase isn't in korea. This way we get to see him play in more foreign tournaments and stream in much more friendly hours, rather than at 4am for Code S.
1. Yeah but the aim to make money as the only goal is exactly what corporations do. 2. Come on, you're doing it again. Looking at it from HIS perspective. The viewer perspective is to see the best matches. in MMA we want to see Anderson Silva vs another champion because it is a great fight. In starcraft the viewer wants to see stephano vs whoever the hell it happens to be you and others want to see him against. 3. He isn't forced to. Hell he could quit and become a pop star if he wants, the point is not what he wants, it is what the fans want. Do the fans want to see him become a pop star? No, they want to see him make foreigners matter in the scene and the fans should feel negative about his leaving korea and hurting this desire of fans. 4. People want to see foreigners succeed vs koreans and win GSLs(not me but many people).
So, why are you being his spokesman instead of voicing your own desires?
because i don't think a fans desire should be to make the player miserable? Sorry that I view Stephano as an individual. I don't think any of his fans should be upset that he isn't staying in Korea when they know he isn't happy there. You aren't really a fan of his if you feel that way.
Well I am not a fan of his, but I still feel very confused about peoples defense of his actions. Stephano pay check hunting and not playing in the most prestigious league is not the defense, its the thing that should be judged. Is this good or bad for a person to do in your view? I know personally I will root for people who work hard, want to play the best, and care about entertaining the fans over a pay check. Why would you be a fan of someone who doesn't want to work as hard as his competitors or make sacrifices?
On March 28 2013 08:25 Maghetti wrote: What I don't get from reading threads defending stephano that say "he is in it for the money, good choice" etc etc is why people actually support him? Think of it like an amoral corporation doing some action, any action, purely for their own profit. If that action helps a person, you would support it(but the corp doesnt care as long as they are paid) or they do something you dont like(and the corp doesnt care as long as they are paid), why would you give a shit about the corporations goals? In a free market the amoral corporation does stuff, and if its bad, they get punished by the consumer. Similarly, if you're fan of seeing foreigners in korea or generally playing the best players and trying to be the best, would you not support that person regardless of what they think? And if Stephano is in it only for the money and has no interest in being the best, playing the best, or playing in the hardest league should you not think thats a shitty ass thing regardless of what he himself thinks? Why the hell are you supporting him if his actions are bad for the viewers, including yourself?
1. Stephano isn't a corporation and shouldn't be thought of as one. 2. A sc2 player only has a short amount of years to compete at the highest level. They should be making as much money as possible in that time frame, especially since they are putting of school/work. 3. If Stephano isn't happy in Korea, why should he be forced to stay there? It will do him no good to stay in an environment he doesn't like. It won't make him a better player. He will just be unhappy. 4. His actions aren't bad for the viewers at all. If anything its better. His fanbase isn't in korea. This way we get to see him play in more foreign tournaments and stream in much more friendly hours, rather than at 4am for Code S.
1. Yeah but the aim to make money as the only goal is exactly what corporations do. 2. Come on, you're doing it again. Looking at it from HIS perspective. The viewer perspective is to see the best matches. in MMA we want to see Anderson Silva vs another champion because it is a great fight. In starcraft the viewer wants to see stephano vs whoever the hell it happens to be you and others want to see him against. 3. He isn't forced to. Hell he could quit and become a pop star if he wants, the point is not what he wants, it is what the fans want. Do the fans want to see him become a pop star? No, they want to see him make foreigners matter in the scene and the fans should feel negative about his leaving korea and hurting this desire of fans. 4. People want to see foreigners succeed vs koreans and win GSLs(not me but many people).
So, why are you being his spokesman instead of voicing your own desires?
because i don't think a fans desire should be to make the player miserable? Sorry that I view Stephano as an individual. I don't think any of his fans should be upset that he isn't staying in Korea when they know he isn't happy there. You aren't really a fan of his if you feel that way.
Well I am not a fan of his, but I still feel very confused about peoples defense of his actions. Stephano pay check hunting and not playing in the most prestigious league is not the defense, its the thing that should be judged. Is this good or bad for a person to do in your view? I know personally I will root for people who work hard, want to play the best, and care about entertaining the fans over a pay check. Why would you be a fan of someone who doesn't want to work as hard as his competitors or make sacrifices?
his fans want to see him win. He wins outside of Korea. Its quite simple really. I have no problem with a player trying to make as much money as possible. Honestly, its stupid not to. Stephano is just more open about it than other players.
Well I'm sad that I won't be able to see Stephano as a Code S regular like he could have been if he stayed. If he wasn't happy there and didn't feel like it was optimal training environment, then I guess it can't be helped.
On March 28 2013 08:25 Maghetti wrote: What I don't get from reading threads defending stephano that say "he is in it for the money, good choice" etc etc is why people actually support him? Think of it like an amoral corporation doing some action, any action, purely for their own profit. If that action helps a person, you would support it(but the corp doesnt care as long as they are paid) or they do something you dont like(and the corp doesnt care as long as they are paid), why would you give a shit about the corporations goals? In a free market the amoral corporation does stuff, and if its bad, they get punished by the consumer. Similarly, if you're fan of seeing foreigners in korea or generally playing the best players and trying to be the best, would you not support that person regardless of what they think? And if Stephano is in it only for the money and has no interest in being the best, playing the best, or playing in the hardest league should you not think thats a shitty ass thing regardless of what he himself thinks? Why the hell are you supporting him if his actions are bad for the viewers, including yourself?
1. Stephano isn't a corporation and shouldn't be thought of as one. 2. A sc2 player only has a short amount of years to compete at the highest level. They should be making as much money as possible in that time frame, especially since they are putting of school/work. 3. If Stephano isn't happy in Korea, why should he be forced to stay there? It will do him no good to stay in an environment he doesn't like. It won't make him a better player. He will just be unhappy. 4. His actions aren't bad for the viewers at all. If anything its better. His fanbase isn't in korea. This way we get to see him play in more foreign tournaments and stream in much more friendly hours, rather than at 4am for Code S.
1. Yeah but the aim to make money as the only goal is exactly what corporations do. 2. Come on, you're doing it again. Looking at it from HIS perspective. The viewer perspective is to see the best matches. in MMA we want to see Anderson Silva vs another champion because it is a great fight. In starcraft the viewer wants to see stephano vs whoever the hell it happens to be you and others want to see him against. 3. He isn't forced to. Hell he could quit and become a pop star if he wants, the point is not what he wants, it is what the fans want. Do the fans want to see him become a pop star? No, they want to see him make foreigners matter in the scene and the fans should feel negative about his leaving korea and hurting this desire of fans. 4. People want to see foreigners succeed vs koreans and win GSLs(not me but many people).
So, why are you being his spokesman instead of voicing your own desires?
because i don't think a fans desire should be to make the player miserable? Sorry that I view Stephano as an individual. I don't think any of his fans should be upset that he isn't staying in Korea when they know he isn't happy there. You aren't really a fan of his if you feel that way.
Well I am not a fan of his, but I still feel very confused about peoples defense of his actions. Stephano pay check hunting and not playing in the most prestigious league is not the defense, its the thing that should be judged. Is this good or bad for a person to do in your view? I know personally I will root for people who work hard, want to play the best, and care about entertaining the fans over a pay check. Why would you be a fan of someone who doesn't want to work as hard as his competitors or make sacrifices?
his fans want to see him win. He wins outside of Korea. Its quite simple really. I have no problem with a player trying to make as much money as possible. Honestly, its stupid not to. Stephano is just more open about it than other players.
I just always thought people care about dedication(he is very much not dedicated), hard work(probably puts in a reasonable number of hours but no where near as much as the koreans and some other foreigners), a desire to earn their way(scarlett or jinro turning down a seed to go through qualifiers), willing to make sacrifices(Major or 99% of koreans grinding it out to be the best), heart(pushing through adversity, like MVP winning a championship with his wrist problems), desire to be the best(Flash, MVP, etc), desire to entertain the fans(im sure he has some desire, but people DEFINITELY wanted to see him try to win code S), and the desire for greatness over personal profit(Achilles, Albert Einstein, and other remember-able people vs corporate CEO trying to maximize profit even if it means harming the environment or giving themselves bonuses at the expensive of employees. Are these not the traits people look for to root for individuals? Support whatever you want but I certainly do not understand it.
On March 28 2013 08:25 Maghetti wrote: What I don't get from reading threads defending stephano that say "he is in it for the money, good choice" etc etc is why people actually support him? Think of it like an amoral corporation doing some action, any action, purely for their own profit. If that action helps a person, you would support it(but the corp doesnt care as long as they are paid) or they do something you dont like(and the corp doesnt care as long as they are paid), why would you give a shit about the corporations goals? In a free market the amoral corporation does stuff, and if its bad, they get punished by the consumer. Similarly, if you're fan of seeing foreigners in korea or generally playing the best players and trying to be the best, would you not support that person regardless of what they think? And if Stephano is in it only for the money and has no interest in being the best, playing the best, or playing in the hardest league should you not think thats a shitty ass thing regardless of what he himself thinks? Why the hell are you supporting him if his actions are bad for the viewers, including yourself?
1. Stephano isn't a corporation and shouldn't be thought of as one. 2. A sc2 player only has a short amount of years to compete at the highest level. They should be making as much money as possible in that time frame, especially since they are putting of school/work. 3. If Stephano isn't happy in Korea, why should he be forced to stay there? It will do him no good to stay in an environment he doesn't like. It won't make him a better player. He will just be unhappy. 4. His actions aren't bad for the viewers at all. If anything its better. His fanbase isn't in korea. This way we get to see him play in more foreign tournaments and stream in much more friendly hours, rather than at 4am for Code S.
1. Yeah but the aim to make money as the only goal is exactly what corporations do. 2. Come on, you're doing it again. Looking at it from HIS perspective. The viewer perspective is to see the best matches. in MMA we want to see Anderson Silva vs another champion because it is a great fight. In starcraft the viewer wants to see stephano vs whoever the hell it happens to be you and others want to see him against. 3. He isn't forced to. Hell he could quit and become a pop star if he wants, the point is not what he wants, it is what the fans want. Do the fans want to see him become a pop star? No, they want to see him make foreigners matter in the scene and the fans should feel negative about his leaving korea and hurting this desire of fans. 4. People want to see foreigners succeed vs koreans and win GSLs(not me but many people).
So, why are you being his spokesman instead of voicing your own desires?
because i don't think a fans desire should be to make the player miserable? Sorry that I view Stephano as an individual. I don't think any of his fans should be upset that he isn't staying in Korea when they know he isn't happy there. You aren't really a fan of his if you feel that way.
Well I am not a fan of his, but I still feel very confused about peoples defense of his actions. Stephano pay check hunting and not playing in the most prestigious league is not the defense, its the thing that should be judged. Is this good or bad for a person to do in your view? I know personally I will root for people who work hard, want to play the best, and care about entertaining the fans over a pay check. Why would you be a fan of someone who doesn't want to work as hard as his competitors or make sacrifices?
his fans want to see him win. He wins outside of Korea. Its quite simple really. I have no problem with a player trying to make as much money as possible. Honestly, its stupid not to. Stephano is just more open about it than other players.
I just always thought people care about dedication(he is very much not dedicated), hard work(probably puts in a reasonable number of hours but no where near as much as the koreans and some other foreigners), a desire to earn their way(scarlett or jinro turning down a seed to go through qualifiers), willing to make sacrifices(Major or 99% of koreans grinding it out to be the best), heart(pushing through adversity, like MVP winning a championship with his wrist problems), desire to be the best(Flash, MVP, etc), desire to entertain the fans(im sure he has some desire, but people DEFINITELY wanted to see him try to win code S), and the desire for greatness over personal profit(Achilles, Albert Einstein, and other remember-able people vs corporate CEO trying to maximize profit even if it means harming the environment or giving themselves bonuses at the expensive of employees. Are these not the traits people look for to root for individuals? Support whatever you want but I certainly do not understand it.
players have fans for numerous different reasons. trying to limit it to X amount is dumb. honestly trying to understand fans is dumb because its all personal preference. People could like him because of his hair. It really doesn't matter. One of the biggest reasons people like Stephano is because he wins. Just like why the Yankees are the most popular team in baseball and why the Miami Heat have a ton of fans right now. They win and they win a lot. Stephano is no different.
If you can't understand that part, then I don't know what to tell you.
I think the greatest reason why Stephano chose to leave now is because he had had enough of Korea. He complained in an interview a bit back and he said he hated living in Korea and that he could not get along with the coach. While the head coach has been changed, the coach is still working in the house and coaching the players under the direction of Coach Park. Also the Korean players still could not speak English well and it is still hard to communicate. The situation has not changed since Stephano's last interview and that is why I think he could not stand it any more.
On March 28 2013 08:25 Maghetti wrote: What I don't get from reading threads defending stephano that say "he is in it for the money, good choice" etc etc is why people actually support him? Think of it like an amoral corporation doing some action, any action, purely for their own profit. If that action helps a person, you would support it(but the corp doesnt care as long as they are paid) or they do something you dont like(and the corp doesnt care as long as they are paid), why would you give a shit about the corporations goals? In a free market the amoral corporation does stuff, and if its bad, they get punished by the consumer. Similarly, if you're fan of seeing foreigners in korea or generally playing the best players and trying to be the best, would you not support that person regardless of what they think? And if Stephano is in it only for the money and has no interest in being the best, playing the best, or playing in the hardest league should you not think thats a shitty ass thing regardless of what he himself thinks? Why the hell are you supporting him if his actions are bad for the viewers, including yourself?
1. Stephano isn't a corporation and shouldn't be thought of as one. 2. A sc2 player only has a short amount of years to compete at the highest level. They should be making as much money as possible in that time frame, especially since they are putting of school/work. 3. If Stephano isn't happy in Korea, why should he be forced to stay there? It will do him no good to stay in an environment he doesn't like. It won't make him a better player. He will just be unhappy. 4. His actions aren't bad for the viewers at all. If anything its better. His fanbase isn't in korea. This way we get to see him play in more foreign tournaments and stream in much more friendly hours, rather than at 4am for Code S.
1. Yeah but the aim to make money as the only goal is exactly what corporations do. 2. Come on, you're doing it again. Looking at it from HIS perspective. The viewer perspective is to see the best matches. in MMA we want to see Anderson Silva vs another champion because it is a great fight. In starcraft the viewer wants to see stephano vs whoever the hell it happens to be you and others want to see him against. 3. He isn't forced to. Hell he could quit and become a pop star if he wants, the point is not what he wants, it is what the fans want. Do the fans want to see him become a pop star? No, they want to see him make foreigners matter in the scene and the fans should feel negative about his leaving korea and hurting this desire of fans. 4. People want to see foreigners succeed vs koreans and win GSLs(not me but many people).
So, why are you being his spokesman instead of voicing your own desires?
because i don't think a fans desire should be to make the player miserable? Sorry that I view Stephano as an individual. I don't think any of his fans should be upset that he isn't staying in Korea when they know he isn't happy there. You aren't really a fan of his if you feel that way.
Well I am not a fan of his, but I still feel very confused about peoples defense of his actions. Stephano pay check hunting and not playing in the most prestigious league is not the defense, its the thing that should be judged. Is this good or bad for a person to do in your view? I know personally I will root for people who work hard, want to play the best, and care about entertaining the fans over a pay check. Why would you be a fan of someone who doesn't want to work as hard as his competitors or make sacrifices?
his fans want to see him win. He wins outside of Korea. Its quite simple really. I have no problem with a player trying to make as much money as possible. Honestly, its stupid not to. Stephano is just more open about it than other players.
If his fans want to see him win that much, I guess somebody should make him new account so that he can pawn bronze and make his fans happy.
On March 28 2013 08:25 Maghetti wrote: What I don't get from reading threads defending stephano that say "he is in it for the money, good choice" etc etc is why people actually support him? Think of it like an amoral corporation doing some action, any action, purely for their own profit. If that action helps a person, you would support it(but the corp doesnt care as long as they are paid) or they do something you dont like(and the corp doesnt care as long as they are paid), why would you give a shit about the corporations goals? In a free market the amoral corporation does stuff, and if its bad, they get punished by the consumer. Similarly, if you're fan of seeing foreigners in korea or generally playing the best players and trying to be the best, would you not support that person regardless of what they think? And if Stephano is in it only for the money and has no interest in being the best, playing the best, or playing in the hardest league should you not think thats a shitty ass thing regardless of what he himself thinks? Why the hell are you supporting him if his actions are bad for the viewers, including yourself?
1. Stephano isn't a corporation and shouldn't be thought of as one. 2. A sc2 player only has a short amount of years to compete at the highest level. They should be making as much money as possible in that time frame, especially since they are putting of school/work. 3. If Stephano isn't happy in Korea, why should he be forced to stay there? It will do him no good to stay in an environment he doesn't like. It won't make him a better player. He will just be unhappy. 4. His actions aren't bad for the viewers at all. If anything its better. His fanbase isn't in korea. This way we get to see him play in more foreign tournaments and stream in much more friendly hours, rather than at 4am for Code S.
1. Yeah but the aim to make money as the only goal is exactly what corporations do. 2. Come on, you're doing it again. Looking at it from HIS perspective. The viewer perspective is to see the best matches. in MMA we want to see Anderson Silva vs another champion because it is a great fight. In starcraft the viewer wants to see stephano vs whoever the hell it happens to be you and others want to see him against. 3. He isn't forced to. Hell he could quit and become a pop star if he wants, the point is not what he wants, it is what the fans want. Do the fans want to see him become a pop star? No, they want to see him make foreigners matter in the scene and the fans should feel negative about his leaving korea and hurting this desire of fans. 4. People want to see foreigners succeed vs koreans and win GSLs(not me but many people).
So, why are you being his spokesman instead of voicing your own desires?
because i don't think a fans desire should be to make the player miserable? Sorry that I view Stephano as an individual. I don't think any of his fans should be upset that he isn't staying in Korea when they know he isn't happy there. You aren't really a fan of his if you feel that way.
Well I am not a fan of his, but I still feel very confused about peoples defense of his actions. Stephano pay check hunting and not playing in the most prestigious league is not the defense, its the thing that should be judged. Is this good or bad for a person to do in your view? I know personally I will root for people who work hard, want to play the best, and care about entertaining the fans over a pay check. Why would you be a fan of someone who doesn't want to work as hard as his competitors or make sacrifices?
his fans want to see him win. He wins outside of Korea. Its quite simple really. I have no problem with a player trying to make as much money as possible. Honestly, its stupid not to. Stephano is just more open about it than other players.
I just always thought people care about dedication(he is very much not dedicated), hard work(probably puts in a reasonable number of hours but no where near as much as the koreans and some other foreigners), a desire to earn their way(scarlett or jinro turning down a seed to go through qualifiers), willing to make sacrifices(Major or 99% of koreans grinding it out to be the best), heart(pushing through adversity, like MVP winning a championship with his wrist problems), desire to be the best(Flash, MVP, etc), desire to entertain the fans(im sure he has some desire, but people DEFINITELY wanted to see him try to win code S), and the desire for greatness over personal profit(Achilles, Albert Einstein, and other remember-able people vs corporate CEO trying to maximize profit even if it means harming the environment or giving themselves bonuses at the expensive of employees. Are these not the traits people look for to root for individuals? Support whatever you want but I certainly do not understand it.
players have fans for numerous different reasons. trying to limit it to X amount is dumb. honestly trying to understand fans is dumb because its all personal preference. People could like him because of his hair. It really doesn't matter. One of the biggest reasons people like Stephano is because he wins. Just like why the Yankees are the most popular team in baseball and why the Miami Heat have a ton of fans right now. They win and they win a lot. Stephano is no different.
If you can't understand that part, then I don't know what to tell you.
On March 28 2013 08:25 Maghetti wrote: What I don't get from reading threads defending stephano that say "he is in it for the money, good choice" etc etc is why people actually support him? Think of it like an amoral corporation doing some action, any action, purely for their own profit. If that action helps a person, you would support it(but the corp doesnt care as long as they are paid) or they do something you dont like(and the corp doesnt care as long as they are paid), why would you give a shit about the corporations goals? In a free market the amoral corporation does stuff, and if its bad, they get punished by the consumer. Similarly, if you're fan of seeing foreigners in korea or generally playing the best players and trying to be the best, would you not support that person regardless of what they think? And if Stephano is in it only for the money and has no interest in being the best, playing the best, or playing in the hardest league should you not think thats a shitty ass thing regardless of what he himself thinks? Why the hell are you supporting him if his actions are bad for the viewers, including yourself?
1. Stephano isn't a corporation and shouldn't be thought of as one. 2. A sc2 player only has a short amount of years to compete at the highest level. They should be making as much money as possible in that time frame, especially since they are putting of school/work. 3. If Stephano isn't happy in Korea, why should he be forced to stay there? It will do him no good to stay in an environment he doesn't like. It won't make him a better player. He will just be unhappy. 4. His actions aren't bad for the viewers at all. If anything its better. His fanbase isn't in korea. This way we get to see him play in more foreign tournaments and stream in much more friendly hours, rather than at 4am for Code S.
1. Yeah but the aim to make money as the only goal is exactly what corporations do. 2. Come on, you're doing it again. Looking at it from HIS perspective. The viewer perspective is to see the best matches. in MMA we want to see Anderson Silva vs another champion because it is a great fight. In starcraft the viewer wants to see stephano vs whoever the hell it happens to be you and others want to see him against. 3. He isn't forced to. Hell he could quit and become a pop star if he wants, the point is not what he wants, it is what the fans want. Do the fans want to see him become a pop star? No, they want to see him make foreigners matter in the scene and the fans should feel negative about his leaving korea and hurting this desire of fans. 4. People want to see foreigners succeed vs koreans and win GSLs(not me but many people).
So, why are you being his spokesman instead of voicing your own desires?
because i don't think a fans desire should be to make the player miserable? Sorry that I view Stephano as an individual. I don't think any of his fans should be upset that he isn't staying in Korea when they know he isn't happy there. You aren't really a fan of his if you feel that way.
Well I am not a fan of his, but I still feel very confused about peoples defense of his actions. Stephano pay check hunting and not playing in the most prestigious league is not the defense, its the thing that should be judged. Is this good or bad for a person to do in your view? I know personally I will root for people who work hard, want to play the best, and care about entertaining the fans over a pay check. Why would you be a fan of someone who doesn't want to work as hard as his competitors or make sacrifices?
his fans want to see him win. He wins outside of Korea. Its quite simple really. I have no problem with a player trying to make as much money as possible. Honestly, its stupid not to. Stephano is just more open about it than other players.
If his fans want to see him win that much, I guess somebody should make him new account so that he can pawn bronze and make his fans happy.
On March 28 2013 07:37 Hrrrrm wrote: The only way to be surprised by this is if he had won a GSL title easily and decided to pull out. Stephano is only interested in SC2 until he stops getting money consistently from it. He's been pretty up front about it and that's a reason why I respect him. He's actually treating it like a job, because it is. Once this job starts sucking ass for him there really is no reason for him to stay when he has schooling lined up for something that he wants to do. Also getting out of Korea means more streaming at NA/EU friendly times and more money in his pocket. He was never cut out for Korea but, at least he decided to try it out.
It will be interesting to see how his results are in the future.
I don't quite see it the same way. Okay, so he wants instant gratification. Fair and so did other guys like Greg. There is no standard when it comes to gaming. You don't like the situation so you go home. To think someone could get away with such things in let's say rowing, coastal guards, army, etc. is a little troublesome. It's not just sports. There are certain requirements & expectations you have to meet to not just be one of them, but to remain competitive as well (or in other words, keeping your job). It's rigorous; it's vicious. There is no way for making up for lost time. There is no such thing as downtime. We know their expectations and there's a code. The Western code in gaming is what holds many players back. In fact, they have no code other than player etiquette when it comes to tournaments. This is why I don't really like the idea of inviting players who don't adapt or put the proper time in to show good games because they cannot re-adjust and listen to experienced coaches. I think the guys who do the time and get the results deserve to be there more. Welcome to the occupational hazard of being a professional gamer.
On March 28 2013 05:29 Enders116 wrote: In the words of IdrA, sc2 players in Korean training houses have very little freedom to do what they want to do when they want to do it. So, in other words, if a player wants to go fishing on this day or that day, it just doesn't happen. 14 hours a day are dedicated to starcraft 2, possibly an hour here or there becomes free time (breakfast, lunch and dinner) and so on. He even said in a separate interview that sometimes it is too much and players start making mistakes just because they are playing far too much.
Coupling the above paragraph with the idea that Code S is very "cut throat" and the odds are stacked against anyone who gets in to it, I don't blame stephano for doing what he's doing. He has much better odds with EU and NA tournaments than he does with the GSL.
finally someone with a brain here,
being jailed in an korean(or any country where your language is not spoken) apartment is not what you need to be happy and good at your work
PS. i have been many time in that situation, at a certain point the only thing you think is: when i can go home?
It's called a job. You guys view it as prison. They're being paid to play; other guys are being professional about it. They understand the requirements. It's rare that you see Star players complain about their teams and it only happens in certain situations and if the player doesn't bring it. Guess what happens? They get benched.
It's a shitty job. A job should be 35-45 hours per week, not 10-12 a day. Not liking korean practice regimes is perfectly understandable.
Welcome to real Korean professional gaming. You want to play with the big boys. You have to train like them to keep up. As for the job thing. I think I should have taken it one step further. It's a lifestyle choice. Goes back to what I said when it comes to downtime in certain occupations and sports because there really is none.
i knew he couldnt cut it in korea; it was obvious even before he went that he had the talent but lacked the discipline and dedication. this is what seperates the great players from the best players. in korea's practice environment it was inevitable that he'd fall behind.
onto easier pastures, i suppose. but no one can claim him to be the best foreigner in the world soon. winning a million mlg/dh means nothing when you couldnt hack it in the gsl or proleague.
On March 28 2013 08:25 Maghetti wrote: What I don't get from reading threads defending stephano that say "he is in it for the money, good choice" etc etc is why people actually support him? Think of it like an amoral corporation doing some action, any action, purely for their own profit. If that action helps a person, you would support it(but the corp doesnt care as long as they are paid) or they do something you dont like(and the corp doesnt care as long as they are paid), why would you give a shit about the corporations goals? In a free market the amoral corporation does stuff, and if its bad, they get punished by the consumer. Similarly, if you're fan of seeing foreigners in korea or generally playing the best players and trying to be the best, would you not support that person regardless of what they think? And if Stephano is in it only for the money and has no interest in being the best, playing the best, or playing in the hardest league should you not think thats a shitty ass thing regardless of what he himself thinks? Why the hell are you supporting him if his actions are bad for the viewers, including yourself?
1. Stephano isn't a corporation and shouldn't be thought of as one. 2. A sc2 player only has a short amount of years to compete at the highest level. They should be making as much money as possible in that time frame, especially since they are putting of school/work. 3. If Stephano isn't happy in Korea, why should he be forced to stay there? It will do him no good to stay in an environment he doesn't like. It won't make him a better player. He will just be unhappy. 4. His actions aren't bad for the viewers at all. If anything its better. His fanbase isn't in korea. This way we get to see him play in more foreign tournaments and stream in much more friendly hours, rather than at 4am for Code S.
1. Yeah but the aim to make money as the only goal is exactly what corporations do. 2. Come on, you're doing it again. Looking at it from HIS perspective. The viewer perspective is to see the best matches. in MMA we want to see Anderson Silva vs another champion because it is a great fight. In starcraft the viewer wants to see stephano vs whoever the hell it happens to be you and others want to see him against. 3. He isn't forced to. Hell he could quit and become a pop star if he wants, the point is not what he wants, it is what the fans want. Do the fans want to see him become a pop star? No, they want to see him make foreigners matter in the scene and the fans should feel negative about his leaving korea and hurting this desire of fans. 4. People want to see foreigners succeed vs koreans and win GSLs(not me but many people).
So, why are you being his spokesman instead of voicing your own desires?
because i don't think a fans desire should be to make the player miserable? Sorry that I view Stephano as an individual. I don't think any of his fans should be upset that he isn't staying in Korea when they know he isn't happy there. You aren't really a fan of his if you feel that way.
Well I am not a fan of his, but I still feel very confused about peoples defense of his actions. Stephano pay check hunting and not playing in the most prestigious league is not the defense, its the thing that should be judged. Is this good or bad for a person to do in your view? I know personally I will root for people who work hard, want to play the best, and care about entertaining the fans over a pay check. Why would you be a fan of someone who doesn't want to work as hard as his competitors or make sacrifices?
his fans want to see him win. He wins outside of Korea. Its quite simple really. I have no problem with a player trying to make as much money as possible. Honestly, its stupid not to. Stephano is just more open about it than other players.
If his fans want to see him win that much, I guess somebody should make him new account so that he can pawn bronze and make his fans happy.
oh come on.
Make it silver then, because I also like to live dangerously.
I don't know why people only focus on his dedication. Korea is a totally different country which people have a hard time adapting in. You can see this when you look at his relationship with the coach (which is a major problem) and the lack of communication with other people.
On March 28 2013 00:30 mki wrote: The main issue is foreigners never really had to work for their seeds so they don't appreciate it. How many foreigners have actually made it to GSL the traditional method? Sure you can argue they deserve it because they win up/down matches - but they never had to struggle through traditional GSL qualifiers.
There will never be a true top foreign contender until someone who is willing to do so and work hard for it shows up. Going to Korea just to "practice" isn't enough. It's about understanding the rigorous training schedule all these Koreans are FORCED to take up because it's so hard to qualify for GSL through qualifiers.
Living in a country where most people don't speak any of the languages you speak is damn hard. You've got no good means of communication (short of learning Korean, but I don't think they've got time for evening classes) and you are thousands of miles away from your closest friends. It takes an insane amount of determination to actually keep going under such circumstances.
Besides, SC2 is a lot more popular in EU/US than it is in SK, so that may be a reason to go back to France as well.
On March 28 2013 09:40 synaptik wrote: i knew he couldnt cut it in korea; it was obvious even before he went that he had the talent but lacked the discipline and dedication. this is what seperates the great players from the best players. in korea's practice environment it was inevitable that he'd fall behind.
onto easier pastures, i suppose. but no one can claim him to be the best foreigner in the world soon. winning a million mlg/dh means nothing when you couldnt hack it in the gsl or proleague.
Why in the world do people say things like this? His play has been fine in Korea. He doesn't like living there. It's not fucking rocket science.
To indulge in the same amount of mindless psychobabble most others are, I wonder if the problem isn't you. You'd kill to be that good and to have that opportunity, and, since you aren't and don't, you're taking it personally that someone else doesn't see it for the world's-shinest-diamond that it so clearly is. Basically, you're jelly.
He wants to go back to being the big fish in the small bowl. It seems like Naniwa really is the only foreigner with a high competitive spirit against daunting odds. Stephano allegedly tried to drop out of the up and downs, looked quite bad in a terrible group, and then later drops out anyway even after advancing. kk. And the rumor that Scarlett turned down a seed isn't too surprising. But incredibly disappointing. But why make no money getting blown out of the water and living overseas? :/
Seriously, this is the best the foreign scene has to offer? This will all become like the chasm in Brood War all over again. It's just worse this time because not only can no foreigner hack it, but the "best" of the them don't even want to try anymore in Korea.
But when Koreans enter foreign tourneys, they still get all the major dough, maybe that one really horrible thread about a "no Korean" league and tourneys is much closer on the horizon than anticipated.
On March 28 2013 07:55 Jacmert wrote: @TeslasPigeon: If Stephano were able to produce some good results in GSL/Korea, that would be MORE than enough positive exposure to make up for him missing some European tournaments. For fans of Proleague and GSL like me, just seeing him compete is already good positive exposure for EG. Now that he's pulling out, it actually works as negative exposure to the brand, imo.
I'm still pulling for EG-TL, though. #gogo foreigners!
I'm sorry but the amount of people that watch DH and MLG dwarf PL and GSL. You have western tournaments that pull in over a million uniques per events for sc2.
The hardcore fans of starcraft are a small amount, not to mention that this segment will still continue to be fans regardless of Stephano's decision. It is a much wiser from a marketing standpoint to increase your viewer and fan base, you aren't going to accomplish this in Korea. Especially for a game where the numbers aren't exactly there compared to western events and spectators.
A lot of people watch GSL. There's a reason they're the only SC2 related esport company that actually make a profit.
MLG is making money and I'm pretty sure DH isn't hurting either.
MLG isn't making money it runs on venture capital.
On March 28 2013 07:55 Jacmert wrote: @TeslasPigeon: If Stephano were able to produce some good results in GSL/Korea, that would be MORE than enough positive exposure to make up for him missing some European tournaments. For fans of Proleague and GSL like me, just seeing him compete is already good positive exposure for EG. Now that he's pulling out, it actually works as negative exposure to the brand, imo.
I'm still pulling for EG-TL, though. #gogo foreigners!
I'm sorry but the amount of people that watch DH and MLG dwarf PL and GSL. You have western tournaments that pull in over a million uniques per events for sc2.
The hardcore fans of starcraft are a small amount, not to mention that this segment will still continue to be fans regardless of Stephano's decision. It is a much wiser from a marketing standpoint to increase your viewer and fan base, you aren't going to accomplish this in Korea. Especially for a game where the numbers aren't exactly there compared to western events and spectators.
A lot of people watch GSL. There's a reason they're the only SC2 related esport company that actually make a profit.
MLG is making money and I'm pretty sure DH isn't hurting either.
MLG isn't making money it runs on venture capital.
not anymore. Sundance said MLG is making money now.
On March 28 2013 07:55 Jacmert wrote: @TeslasPigeon: If Stephano were able to produce some good results in GSL/Korea, that would be MORE than enough positive exposure to make up for him missing some European tournaments. For fans of Proleague and GSL like me, just seeing him compete is already good positive exposure for EG. Now that he's pulling out, it actually works as negative exposure to the brand, imo.
I'm still pulling for EG-TL, though. #gogo foreigners!
I'm sorry but the amount of people that watch DH and MLG dwarf PL and GSL. You have western tournaments that pull in over a million uniques per events for sc2.
The hardcore fans of starcraft are a small amount, not to mention that this segment will still continue to be fans regardless of Stephano's decision. It is a much wiser from a marketing standpoint to increase your viewer and fan base, you aren't going to accomplish this in Korea. Especially for a game where the numbers aren't exactly there compared to western events and spectators.
A lot of people watch GSL. There's a reason they're the only SC2 related esport company that actually make a profit.
MLG is making money and I'm pretty sure DH isn't hurting either.
MLG isn't making money it runs on venture capital.
not anymore. Sundance said MLG is making money now.
MLG and GSL make money. I really doubt that DH makes any money.
On March 28 2013 00:14 jakethesnake wrote: Wow. Bummer. It's really disappointing to me that foreigners seem to give up their Code A/S spots so regularly. I realize it must be incredibly difficult for these players to be in Korea and banking so heavily on one tournament, but it is still incredibly disappointing. Especially for Stephano after going through the Up and Downs go just give it away seems like such a shame.
I would never stay more than 2 weeks in a other country in job-related reason.
man gaming is a passion. gaming in the mecca of gaming is a dream. I can name 45 foreigners in Korea who disagree with you. And thats why I never give much credit to such player like Stephano who has zero competitive spirit
Not only from Stephano's perspective but Idra gives a good point in the 65th episode of Inside the Game.
Basically, he ends up doing better (financially, due to being able to stream, and in terms of skill) outside of South Korea than inside South Korea.
Even practicing in Korea doesn't give one much of an edge.
There are hundreds of Koreans themselves who put in a ton of hours into SC2 but yet haven't been able to qualify or get much done (B-teamers are a good example; behind the scenes, a lot play as much as most players but they still can't manage).
So you have to ask - If all these Koreans (and most B-teamers can probably take most foreigners in any series) practice this hard, and still can't make it big, then what advantage does a foreigner have in Korea? Yes, Foreigners will probably get better in Korea but the amount one gets better is variable and doesn't guarantee you can defeat or match Koreans in series (again, B-teamers who spend as much time as anyone practicing, even in a team house and stuff, still aren't able to compete much despite the huge investment).
Again, Idra made a lot of good points in the 65th episode of Inside the Game about it.
It's really understandable why Stephano is doing this. Plus, he's not a 100%" dream to be a pro gamer" as a career guy. He said several times that he is only doing SC2 and/or professional gaming in general, temporarily. He keeps doing it because he still shows good results and managed to continually earn money.
he was the only non korean to at least play evenly against koreans in GSL...
??? There are several other foreigners who performed (significantly) better in the GSL than Stephano.
Naniwa, HuK, Jinro, IdrA...
Out of the ones you named only Naniwa and Idra really did better. Sure, jinro had back to back Ro4 when the baddies were able to stay in Code S, but overall skill vs competitor Stephano did much better than Jinro. And huk hasn't done anything impressive.
As a viewer, I would 1000x much rather see Stephano crash and burn out of the GSL instead of just up and taking off like that. Now we've got less matches to spectate, and a litttle bit less of a draw to watch the thing.
Don't care for the underlying reasons, understandable or not. Horrendously disappointed as a spectator.
Can we please stop saying Stephano qualified for code S without a seed? Yes, he got through the up and downs, but he was allowed to skil the code B qualifiers which no foreigner has ever gotten past, allowed to skip code A, fell right from code S in the ro32 and got back from the up and downs. Yes, getting through the up and downs is impressive but was allowed to skip very major obstacles.
On March 28 2013 12:15 Lunchador wrote: As a viewer, I would 1000x much rather see Stephano crash and burn out of the GSL instead of just up and taking off like that. Now we've got less matches to spectate, and a litttle bit less of a draw to watch the thing.
Don't care for the underlying reasons, understandable or not. Horrendously disappointed as a spectator.
he was the only non korean to at least play evenly against koreans in GSL...
??? There are several other foreigners who performed (significantly) better in the GSL than Stephano.
Naniwa, HuK, Jinro, IdrA...
Out of the ones you named only Naniwa and Idra really did better. Sure, jinro had back to back Ro4 when the baddies were able to stay in Code S, but overall skill vs competitor Stephano did much better than Jinro. And huk hasn't done anything impressive.
I love how people so easily dismiss Jinro's back to back semi final appearances because players and the general level of play wasn't as good then as it is now.
Should basically tell anyone that won anything in WoL that they did nothing of consequence anymore. So sorry MVP, Nestea, MC, FruitDealer, MMA, DRG, etc but you all didn't actually achieve anything because the game got updated.
Man I can't wait to tell Boxer, July and Nada how bad they were at BW.
On March 28 2013 11:00 theMagus wrote: please, gomtv, no more charity seeds. let any foreigner get into code s by qualifying for it. we won't hold it against you
He did qualify for it this time if you didn't know... So did Huk last time.
Stephano was also just 1 game away from RO16. He was fully worthy of the initial seed.
please, he was given a seed into code s then botched it lol. that's why he was able to do the up/downs to begin with. he didn't even play to qualify for code a then work his way up like even the kespa players did :/
On March 28 2013 11:00 theMagus wrote: please, gomtv, no more charity seeds. let any foreigner get into code s by qualifying for it. we won't hold it against you
He did qualify for it this time if you didn't know... So did Huk last time.
Stephano was also just 1 game away from RO16. He was fully worthy of the initial seed.
please, he was given a seed into code s then botched it lol. that's why he was able to do the up/downs to begin with. he didn't even play to qualify for code a then work his way up like even the kespa players did :/
On March 28 2013 11:00 theMagus wrote: please, gomtv, no more charity seeds. let any foreigner get into code s by qualifying for it. we won't hold it against you
He did qualify for it this time if you didn't know... So did Huk last time.
Stephano was also just 1 game away from RO16. He was fully worthy of the initial seed.
please, he was given a seed into code s then botched it lol. that's why he was able to do the up/downs to begin with. he didn't even play to qualify for code a then work his way up like even the kespa players did :/
On March 28 2013 11:00 theMagus wrote: please, gomtv, no more charity seeds. let any foreigner get into code s by qualifying for it. we won't hold it against you
He did qualify for it this time if you didn't know... So did Huk last time.
Stephano was also just 1 game away from RO16. He was fully worthy of the initial seed.
please, he was given a seed into code s then botched it lol. that's why he was able to do the up/downs to begin with. he didn't even play to qualify for code a then work his way up like even the kespa players did :/
On March 28 2013 11:00 theMagus wrote: please, gomtv, no more charity seeds. let any foreigner get into code s by qualifying for it. we won't hold it against you
He did qualify for it this time if you didn't know... So did Huk last time.
Stephano was also just 1 game away from RO16. He was fully worthy of the initial seed.
please, he was given a seed into code s then botched it lol. that's why he was able to do the up/downs to begin with. he didn't even play to qualify for code a then work his way up like even the kespa players did :/
not all the kespa players.
only rain and jaedong were seeded into code s.
Baby and Soulkey
right, my bad. doesn't change the fact that stephano was seeded into code s, contrary to what that guy was saying lol.
he was the only non korean to at least play evenly against koreans in GSL...
??? There are several other foreigners who performed (significantly) better in the GSL than Stephano.
Naniwa, HuK, Jinro, IdrA...
Out of the ones you named only Naniwa and Idra really did better. Sure, jinro had back to back Ro4 when the baddies were able to stay in Code S, but overall skill vs competitor Stephano did much better than Jinro. And huk hasn't done anything impressive.
...No. IdrA and Jinro were in the GSL at around the same time, and the fact that Jinro made it so far (even earlier on in the GSL's lifespan) is a huge accomplishment. And as far as HuK goes, he's been in the GSL for quite a while and made it relatively deep too.
While Stephano's achievements outside of the GSL are obviously fantastic and put him as the #1 foreigner, Stephano baaarely kept his Code S spot; he failed at performing even well, let alone achieving impressive results, compared to the other four.
No more seeds GOM. Fucking hell, this is so annoying. I really didn't mind the way they are given out, but forfeit after forefeit after forfeit. Yeah Stephano can do as he wishes, I'm not 'hater' but I do find it disappointing. I really did feel he had the talent to prosper at the top table, but he does have a life too and I respect him doing what is best for him. We'll never really know now.
IF you are going to give them, give them to foreigners who have proven that they can stay in Korea and grind away. SaSe in the past did that, Naniwa too.
If not, keep seeds for players like an MVP, or keep some aside for players undergoing wrist surgery and struggling to recapture former glories.
On March 28 2013 11:00 theMagus wrote: please, gomtv, no more charity seeds. let any foreigner get into code s by qualifying for it. we won't hold it against you
He did qualify for it this time if you didn't know... So did Huk last time.
Stephano was also just 1 game away from RO16. He was fully worthy of the initial seed.
please, he was given a seed into code s then botched it lol. that's why he was able to do the up/downs to begin with. he didn't even play to qualify for code a then work his way up like even the kespa players did :/
Huk has performed more consistently and for longer then any other foreigner in the GSL.
Scarlett declined her seed, which means she has more dignity than 99% of pros. Stephano's performance was okay, he DID get through U&D's, but I doubt he would have made it all the way through Code A from the bottom =/
It was probably the best course of action for financial gain, though, and that WAS his objective, so heh.
On March 28 2013 14:05 Wombat_NI wrote: No more seeds GOM. Fucking hell, this is so annoying. I really didn't mind the way they are given out, but forfeit after forefeit after forfeit. Yeah Stephano can do as he wishes, I'm not 'hater' but I do find it disappointing. I really did feel he had the talent to prosper at the top table, but he does have a life too and I respect him doing what is best for him. We'll never really know now.
IF you are going to give them, give them to foreigners who have proven that they can stay in Korea and grind away. SaSe in the past did that, Naniwa too.
If not, keep seeds for players like an MVP, or keep some aside for players undergoing wrist surgery and struggling to recapture former glories.
There are generally three problems with Korean tournaments for foreign players:
1) The barrier for entry is too expensive/high Simply qualifying for the GSL is an arduous task that takes even very skilled Korean pros multiple attempts. The Code A qualifiers are brutal - and that doesn't even really get you into the dance, because then you've got to play in the Code A tournament. The Code A tournament isn't financially lucrative, requires intense practice, occupies time you could be spending outside of Korea at other tournaments, and is incredibly difficult.
2) The Skill Gap is Too Steep Look at the top ELO in the TLPD international: http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/sc2-international/players#tblt-6443-1-4-DESC There are a handful of foreigners, 1 of whom is in the top 20, and these are all tournaments in which Koreans have major travel and preparation disadvantages compared to the Korean style of individual leagues. If you're looking for Stephano, he's on page 2. Hell, MC is on page 2 (well, near the top of it). The skill ceiling at this point is pretty damn high.
3) The Lifestyle is too different Foreign players are forced into a country where a relatively small percentage of the population speaks their language, and the food and cultural norms are all completely different. This alienates a lot of otherwise potentially good candidates to make the trip to Korea and makes good players uncomfortable to stay there.
But, GOM has a problem: Foreign viewers are a big part of the audience, and they want them to watch the GSL. They tune in to watch foreign players.
Seeding people into the tournament certainly doesn't help with (3). There's an argument to be made that it might help with (2), because GOM can presumably select the best available and willing foreign player to compete, but for the most part, the skill gap exists and is unlikely to be closed any time soon.
But GOM can't really solve either (2) or (3) as problems. They can't change Korean culture or make people enjoy it. They can't make foreign players better. So, they do what they can - eliminate the entry barrier, in the hope that it will attract popular foreign players, which will in turn attract foreign viewers.
GOM gives seeds to popular foreigners because popular foreigners mean eyeballs.
I will say that Stephano seemed like a perfect choice for them - immensely popular player with a big fanbase who has faced some amount of Korean competition in foreign tournaments but has never participated in this kind of league setting. So, it's sad that it didn't work out.
On March 28 2013 14:05 Wombat_NI wrote: No more seeds GOM. Fucking hell, this is so annoying. I really didn't mind the way they are given out, but forfeit after forefeit after forfeit. Yeah Stephano can do as he wishes, I'm not 'hater' but I do find it disappointing. I really did feel he had the talent to prosper at the top table, but he does have a life too and I respect him doing what is best for him. We'll never really know now.
IF you are going to give them, give them to foreigners who have proven that they can stay in Korea and grind away. SaSe in the past did that, Naniwa too.
If not, keep seeds for players like an MVP, or keep some aside for players undergoing wrist surgery and struggling to recapture former glories.
There are generally three problems with Korean tournaments for foreign players:
1) The barrier for entry is too expensive/high Simply qualifying for the GSL is an arduous task that takes even very skilled Korean pros multiple attempts. The Code A qualifiers are brutal - and that doesn't even really get you into the dance, because then you've got to play in the Code A tournament. The Code A tournament isn't financially lucrative, requires intense practice, occupies time you could be spending outside of Korea at other tournaments, and is incredibly difficult.
2) The Skill Gap is Too Steep Look at the top ELO in the TLPD international: http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/sc2-international/players#tblt-6443-1-4-DESC There are a handful of foreigners, 1 of whom is in the top 20, and these are all tournaments in which Koreans have major travel and preparation disadvantages compared to the Korean style of individual leagues. If you're looking for Stephano, he's on page 2. Hell, MC is on page 2 (well, near the top of it). The skill ceiling at this point is pretty damn high.
3) The Lifestyle is too different Foreign players are forced into a country where a relatively small percentage of the population speaks their language, and the food and cultural norms are all completely different. This alienates a lot of otherwise potentially good candidates to make the trip to Korea and makes good players uncomfortable to stay there.
But, GOM has a problem: Foreign viewers are a big part of the audience, and they want them to watch the GSL. They tune in to watch foreign players.
Seeding people into the tournament certainly doesn't help with (3). There's an argument to be made that it might help with (2), because GOM can presumably select the best available and willing foreign player to compete, but for the most part, the skill gap exists and is unlikely to be closed any time soon.
But GOM can't really solve either (2) or (3) as problems. They can't change Korean culture or make people enjoy it. They can't make foreign players better. So, they do what they can - eliminate the entry barrier, in the hope that it will attract popular foreign players, which will in turn attract foreign viewers.
GOM gives seeds to popular foreigners because popular foreigners mean eyeballs.
I will say that Stephano seemed like a perfect choice for them - immensely popular player with a big fanbase who has faced some amount of Korean competition in foreign tournaments but has never participated in this kind of league setting. So, it's sad that it didn't work out.
Only point 3 should really matter. If the barriers for entry weren't so high it wouldn't be the most prestigious league in the world. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that's the way it should be. Number two is irrelevant as "skill ceiling" just means players need to practice more...
Look, I don't MIND the idea of seeding being given out, it doesn't bother me that much. It's that expectation of going in, I don't know, winning Code S and leaving, and when that doesn't happen they just forfeit. It's every time, it's a joke, The one foreigner who doesn't do this is Naniwa, and Huk before him I guess.
Even and Up/Down seed is good for a foreigner, Huk and Mana have made it through in recent times.
I think this will only be 'solved' once a sort of worldwide E-sports calendar is sorted, or even a kind of global Kespa set up to avoid tournament clashes, and give space for the the GSL to breathe.
On March 28 2013 00:12 mechengineer123 wrote: Good decision, gsl is too hard for most people.
he played himself in code S in up and downs ... so its not that its to hard its not giving out what he put in in form of time/Money that he gets otherwhere
On March 28 2013 15:48 Wombat_NI wrote: All irrelevant, bar 3 maybe.
Look, I don't MIND the idea of seeding being given out, it doesn't bother me that much. It's that expectation of going in, I don't know, winning Code S and leaving, and when that doesn't happen they just forfeit. It's every time, it's a joke, The one foreigner who doesn't do this is Naniwa, and Huk before him I guess.
Even and Up/Down seed is good for a foreigner, Huk and Mana have made it through in recent times.
I think this will only be 'solved' once a sort of worldwide E-sports calendar is sorted, or even a kind of global Kespa set up to avoid tournament clashes, and give space for the the GSL to breathe.
you cant make a calender for a tournament that has daily games ... its not working because they block months also not many foreigns forfeit their slots, idra stephano ... who else ? the rest lost and got out (grubby didnt forfeit they changed schelude and he had a later flight to korea, not his fault)
Pretty much every foreigner, ever? Apparently the ignominy of Code A is beneath them.
By all means, write of Korea and be happy in the foreign scene, or base yourself there and try to get to the top. It's the arrogance of swanning in, taking a seed off a deserving player on an arbitrary basis and then forfeiting as soon as they go out, in many, many occasions.
At least Nani effectively 'earned' his Code S slot through his placement in Providence I think it was? Go back to that at least, or something similar, link between tournaments better! Make it more defined, do something.
Code S seeds are silly, but code A and up&down seeds are very good.
They have no significant damage to the integrity of tournament competition, and no long term commitment necessary for foreigners also, while still promoting foreign players very well.
In my opinion, I think he shouldn't have participated in the Up & Downs to get a Code S Spot
There are so many koreans who work so hard to get a Code S spot and foreigners just throw it away... This isn't the first time a foreigner throws away an opportunity like this either. As much as I want to see foreigners compete in code S and pwn some koreans, with the attitude towards it now I feel like foreigners don't deserve invites
On March 28 2013 16:38 MysticaL wrote: In my opinion, I think he shouldn't have participated in the Up & Downs to get a Code S Spot
There are so many koreans who work so hard to get a Code S spot and foreigners just throw it away... This isn't the first time a foreigner throws away an opportunity like this either. As much as I want to see foreigners compete in code S and pwn some koreans, with the attitude towards it now I feel like foreigners don't deserve invites
Gom can always still hold an emergency consolation tournament to determine which of the unsuccessfull up-and-down players can get the code S spot.
On March 28 2013 16:38 MysticaL wrote: In my opinion, I think he shouldn't have participated in the Up & Downs to get a Code S Spot
There are so many koreans who work so hard to get a Code S spot and foreigners just throw it away... This isn't the first time a foreigner throws away an opportunity like this either. As much as I want to see foreigners compete in code S and pwn some koreans, with the attitude towards it now I feel like foreigners don't deserve invites
Gom can always still hold an emergency consolation tournament to determine which of the unsuccessfull up-and-down players can get the code S spot.
Stephano being happy is important as he's still the flagship hope of foreigner, undisuptably as of right now, I believe. I honestly think he's more of a valuable asset to EG outside of Korea while they focus their newly buffed up KR roster on proleague.
Foreigners that want to train and participate can cycle in as needed, but it never seemed like that was Stephano's style.
He's not the first talented player that will let it go. Happens all the time. Discounting idra for several reasons, Nony was the only player post 2004 to have anything remotly close to the talent needed to compete that went to Korea.
Everysingle other true gifted foreign player in bw from elky's semi final in ogn until Nony at Estro didn't want to leave for Korean pro team house.
And when i say "gifted" i say this like we had one of those once every three year
- and so most of them didn't even want to attempt korea.
It's totally not uncommon.
edit : ret's shot at korea was a fucked all around while he had also the potential to do good at courage and get license i think
edit : actually idra / draco are to me, post hexatron, the only true foreign pro gamers in korea that ever existed. Even if they didn't win, they fucking lasted.
On March 28 2013 17:52 Boonbag wrote: He's not the first talented player that will let it go. Happens all the time. Discounting idra for several reasons, Nony was the only player post 2004 to have anything remotly close to the talent needed to compete that went to Korea.
Everysingle other true gifted foreign player in bw from elky's semi final in ogn until Nony at Estro didn't want to leave for Korean pro team house.
And when i say "gifted" i say this like we had one of those once every three year
- and so most of them didn't even want to attempt korea.
It's totally not uncommon.
edit : ret's shot at korea was a fucked all around while he had also the potential to do good at courage and get license i think
edit : actually idra / draco are to me, post hexatron, the only true foreign pro gamers in korea that ever existed. Even if they didn't win, they fucking lasted.
Speaking of Mr Fields, it's a shame he didn't stick it out there. For all his infamous rage, he was definitely the best foreign player in the world at one stage, and he lasted before. It's a shame that he can make more money by having the occasional tantrum on stream for the benefit of immature viewers than really pushing himself to be the best he can be, he's a guy I have a lot of time for nonetheless.
I didn't realise Nony was that good? I know that he was well-regarded here of course, but for us who weren't around in the BW time it's nice to get some background, cheers.
On March 28 2013 17:52 Boonbag wrote: He's not the first talented player that will let it go. Happens all the time. Discounting idra for several reasons, Nony was the only player post 2004 to have anything remotly close to the talent needed to compete that went to Korea.
Everysingle other true gifted foreign player in bw from elky's semi final in ogn until Nony at Estro didn't want to leave for Korean pro team house.
And when i say "gifted" i say this like we had one of those once every three year
- and so most of them didn't even want to attempt korea.
It's totally not uncommon.
edit : ret's shot at korea was a fucked all around while he had also the potential to do good at courage and get license i think
edit : actually idra / draco are to me, post hexatron, the only true foreign pro gamers in korea that ever existed. Even if they didn't win, they fucking lasted.
Speaking of Mr Fields, it's a shame he didn't stick it out there. For all his infamous rage, he was definitely the best foreign player in the world at one stage, and he lasted before. It's a shame that he can make more money by having the occasional tantrum on stream for the benefit of immature viewers than really pushing himself to be the best he can be, he's a guy I have a lot of time for nonetheless.
I didn't realise Nony was that good? I know that he was well-regarded here of course, but for us who weren't around in the BW time it's nice to get some background, cheers.
Ret also had a good shot at BW but to me Nony always displayed much more raw talent. He is the only foreign player I ever saw in the late bw era beeing able to dismantle people in Korea. Too bad he didn't stay long enough over there.
But I think at that time, living in the estro house was kind of hardcore. I'm not sure how better Idra was at CJ's. But CJ was for sure a much bigger and richer team.
edit : actually with all the changes EG TL made to their coach / player roster and all the money they putting it in, I believe they have a real shot now for the last round. Even for the two first rounds, I thought they'd get destroyed 100%, but they put up a good fight given the situation.
On March 28 2013 18:05 Cornstarched wrote: Good Koreans need to learn that their little sc1 bubble dosnt exsist anymore
what sc1 bubble? anyone was welcome to try to join their ranks and compete. it's the skill level that really separated the koreans from the rest of the world. if that's your basis for saying that, then it still pretty much exists
I remember there was this norwegian kid Slayers that was extremely good in Starcraft and he went to Korea for the first time and won a huge torunament and was offered a pro contract in a korean team but turned it down, I guess its not for everybody but stephano should have not qualified for code S if he not intended to play it instead of wasting time and dissapoint a lot of fans.
On March 28 2013 19:18 GunSec wrote: I remember there was this norwegian kid Slayers that was extremely good in Starcraft and he went to Korea for the first time and won a huge torunament and was offered a pro contract in a korean team but turned it down, I guess its not for everybody but stephano should have not qualified for code S if he not intended to play it instead of wasting time and dissapoint a lot of fans.
ABS Slayer won the KBK and was later invited by OGN for a special showmach against BOXER on tv, where Slayer displayed awesome skills without any form of huge preparation. He had to go school and couldn't stay in korea. I believe he was pretty young at that time, like 16 or 17.
edit : slayer had a pretty strong zvt at that time and was a formidable opponent.
On March 28 2013 17:52 Boonbag wrote: He's not the first talented player that will let it go. Happens all the time. Discounting idra for several reasons, Nony was the only player post 2004 to have anything remotly close to the talent needed to compete that went to Korea.
Everysingle other true gifted foreign player in bw from elky's semi final in ogn until Nony at Estro didn't want to leave for Korean pro team house.
And when i say "gifted" i say this like we had one of those once every three year
- and so most of them didn't even want to attempt korea.
It's totally not uncommon.
edit : ret's shot at korea was a fucked all around while he had also the potential to do good at courage and get license i think
edit : actually idra / draco are to me, post hexatron, the only true foreign pro gamers in korea that ever existed. Even if they didn't win, they fucking lasted.
Speaking of Mr Fields, it's a shame he didn't stick it out there. For all his infamous rage, he was definitely the best foreign player in the world at one stage, and he lasted before. It's a shame that he can make more money by having the occasional tantrum on stream for the benefit of immature viewers than really pushing himself to be the best he can be, he's a guy I have a lot of time for nonetheless.
I didn't realise Nony was that good? I know that he was well-regarded here of course, but for us who weren't around in the BW time it's nice to get some background, cheers.
Hey. As someone who didn't follow the bw scene, watching videos of Nony's and Ret's courage attempts were quite interesting. + Show Spoiler +
Unforuntately I could find no videos of Idra's attempts. Anyone know how he fared?
On March 28 2013 18:05 Cornstarched wrote: Good Koreans need to learn that their little sc1 bubble dosnt exsist anymore
what sc1 bubble? anyone was welcome to try to join their ranks and compete. it's the skill level that really separated the koreans from the rest of the world. if that's your basis for saying that, then it still pretty much exists
What bubble? The Bubble that you have to move to Korea to compete in big tournaments because there just were no big tournaments anywhere else?
It is not like that anymore and that is very good.
On March 28 2013 18:05 Cornstarched wrote: Good Koreans need to learn that their little sc1 bubble dosnt exsist anymore
what sc1 bubble? anyone was welcome to try to join their ranks and compete. it's the skill level that really separated the koreans from the rest of the world. if that's your basis for saying that, then it still pretty much exists
What bubble? The Bubble that you have to move to Korea to compete in big tournaments because there just were no big tournaments anywhere else?
It is not like that anymore and that is very good.
well you fail to admit that competing in starcraft in korea is something in itself.
just like traveling around the world for events
there was no korean bubble in WC3 and it went all very well
For people with short memory, here's a Stephano interview right before his Code S match where he talks about how happy he is in Korea and how he'll easily 2-0 Innovation.
Then he got wrecked in the GSL and begun to hate Korea.
On March 28 2013 18:05 Cornstarched wrote: Good Koreans need to learn that their little sc1 bubble dosnt exsist anymore
what sc1 bubble? anyone was welcome to try to join their ranks and compete. it's the skill level that really separated the koreans from the rest of the world. if that's your basis for saying that, then it still pretty much exists
What bubble? The Bubble that you have to move to Korea to compete in big tournaments because there just were no big tournaments anywhere else?
It is not like that anymore and that is very good.
well you fail to admit that competing in starcraft in korea is something in itself.
just like traveling around the world for events
there was no korean bubble in WC3 and it went all very well
yes there was. from 2002-2005 Korea was the wc3 mecca that every great foreigners had to come to, get pwnzed and improve. SK squad arrived in 2003, Insomnia won WCG later that year. 4K gave a shot in 2004, Grubby won WCG. Sky got teared apart in WEG series but went on to win WCG 2005. I believe all of them would credit their victories to the Korean experience
On March 28 2013 20:25 sitromit wrote: For people with short memory, here's a Stephano interview right before his Code S match where he talks about how happy he is in Korea and how he'll easily 2-0 Innovation.
Then he got wrecked in the GSL and begun to hate Korea.
Good decision. He didn't seem very happy in Korea. Very different lifestyle and unless you've been through something similar, you won't understand how difficult it can be.
On March 28 2013 21:35 Big J wrote: For people who dont remember, Stephano wasnt seeded into this GSL. He made it through the up&downs.
By getting 2nd place in a group that was down to only 4 players because Yonghwa dropped out at the last moment, when the other up-and-down groups had 6. Not the first time a foreigner got lucky in the up-and-downs. We've all seen the story of how that ends up when they play in ro32 later.
When you're a full-time player it's detrimental to your practice and skill not being in Korea the only reason not to be is just pure laziness. Same attitude as someone who always takes the easy route knowing it's not as good. If you're a fulltime pro your JOB IS Starcraft so stop half arsing it.
HotS is harder than WoL was and you have the Kespa giants to deal with this time around being as laid back outside Korea will not work this time around.
Calling it now that all international HotS events will be taken by either a Korean or a Foreigner living in Korea like Naniwa.
To all the foreigners who stayed outside Korea in WoL and were successful in WoL and think that'll happen again in a Harder game with a much stronger Korean scene are joking themselves and deserve to fall behind.
I understand for some players such as White-Ra this probably isn't possible but if you're not tied down to other work, family or business such as Catz and running Root you have no excuse to not be in Korea especially right now when there's no International events.
it's fun we get this the same day the flash iview is translated where he basically states how his practice regime is going to go nuts in the incoming weeks
On March 28 2013 22:05 Boonbag wrote: it's fun we get this the same day the flash iview is translated where he basically states how his practice regime is going to go nuts in the incoming weeks
What is nuts for Flash? If he thinks it's insane he's really going overboard haha
On March 28 2013 22:05 Boonbag wrote: it's fun we get this the same day the flash iview is translated where he basically states how his practice regime is going to go nuts in the incoming weeks
What is nuts for Flash? If he thinks it's insane he's really going overboard haha
Well he states that since mlg he found his vibe in sc2 and can now truly practice 100% - meaning something i guess like going from 6-8 hours sessions to 8-12 or something
edit: although tbh flash interviews are all the same since years i believe - basically saying "i need to practice some more" everytime he's asked about pretty much anything
as long as there are so many european events this is a good choice for him.
You can probably make more money scoring well at every european tournament then trying to compete in korea. GSL code S is above his level anyway, he could perhaps make RO16 with some luck but he doesn't stand a chance to win it at all. Korea is just far above foreigners, regardless of them training in korea or not. It's more a mentality thing than a training environment I think though living in a good teamhouse helps. Prizes like snute just won are much better to go for, few koreans competing and the format of not really being able to prepare much probably suits stephano better. Tournaments with massive preparation have been horrible for stephano anyway, the weekend tournament with tons of games per day suits his style more
On March 28 2013 21:35 Big J wrote: For people who dont remember, Stephano wasnt seeded into this GSL. He made it through the up&downs.
By getting 2nd place in a group that was down to only 4 players because Yonghwa dropped out at the last moment, when the other up-and-down groups had 6. Not the first time a foreigner got lucky in the up-and-downs. We've all seen the story of how that ends up when they play in ro32 later.
So Stephano and MarineKing dont deserve their Code S spots, because Yongwha shit his pants? Yes, people get lucky, whatever. Should I remind you how unlucky Stephano was in the GSL before to play against the best Terran in the world not only once but twice?
And yeah, we see how this ends up: Stephano raping Hack in the group stages and taking 3rd in his group, better than 8 other players who only got 4th place in their groups. Better than Mvp, Nestea, Yoda or Byun.
On March 28 2013 18:05 Cornstarched wrote: Good Koreans need to learn that their little sc1 bubble dosnt exsist anymore
They have. That's why they go to foreign tournaments, beat Stephano, and take the top 4-5 places and all the top money. He hasn't won a major foreign tournament in a little while.
I find it worrying that 'the one true foreign hope' is someone who got caned in his first GSL appearance and then skulked off back to the foreign scene because it's easier.
It may be the wisest financial decision, but it speaks volumes about our side of the scene when that's the best attitude we've got.
My fingers are crossed that Scarlett will bloom into the next foreign hope. She's definitely got the potential.
On March 28 2013 22:05 Boonbag wrote: it's fun we get this the same day the flash iview is translated where he basically states how his practice regime is going to go nuts in the incoming weeks
What is nuts for Flash? If he thinks it's insane he's really going overboard haha
Well he states that since mlg he found his vibe in sc2 and can now truly practice 100% - meaning something i guess like going from 6-8 hours sessions to 8-12 or something
edit: although tbh flash interviews are all the same since years i believe - basically saying "i need to practice some more" everytime he's asked about pretty much anything
With a player of Flash’s level you have to assume that all of his interviews are also marketing too. He is always going to say his is practicing as hard as ever and that his routine is insane. I have no doubt that he is practicing a ton and 8-14 hours sounds about right. But really, he likely practices and reviews his games as much as his coach recommends and he feels is necessary.
On March 28 2013 18:05 Cornstarched wrote: Good Koreans need to learn that their little sc1 bubble dosnt exsist anymore
what sc1 bubble? anyone was welcome to try to join their ranks and compete. it's the skill level that really separated the koreans from the rest of the world. if that's your basis for saying that, then it still pretty much exists
What bubble? The Bubble that you have to move to Korea to compete in big tournaments because there just were no big tournaments anywhere else?
It is not like that anymore and that is very good.
if it wasn't for koreans, there would be no large formal competitive starcraft scene with a large fanbase. it wasn't really a 'bubble' intended by the koreans. they were just pretty much doing their own shit cause they liked the game, and they welcomed people who wanted to participate like idra. they certainly don't deserve the 'koreans need to learn blahblah' bullcrap.
On March 28 2013 18:05 Cornstarched wrote: Good Koreans need to learn that their little sc1 bubble dosnt exsist anymore
They have. That's why they go to foreign tournaments, beat Stephano, and take the top 4-5 places and all the top money. He hasn't won a major foreign tournament in a little while.
I find it worrying that 'the one true foreign hope' is someone who got caned in his first GSL appearance and then skulked off back to the foreign scene because it's easier.
It may be the wisest financial decision, but it speaks volumes about our side of the scene when that's the best attitude we've got.
My fingers are crossed that Scarlett will bloom into the next foreign hope. She's definitely got the potential.
Scarlett seems to be in a environment for her with Axiom. TB and his wife seem to be focused on making sure their players can focus on practice and get better and I would not be surprised if they pick up a coach in the coming months. With TB and the Game Station at the head of their marketing, they are going to be to focus on winning, rather than putting up numbers to show to sponsors to keep their team viable. I have high hopes that Scarlett can do well in Korea.
I am actually impressed that Stephano could jump into Korea and be at gate keeper level. Feel like everyone hating on the performance and how horrible he did are actually hitting the other gatekeepers really hard that are focused on staying in code S, while Stephano did it just as a side operation.
As for the people that hate seeding, April the 3rd will be a horrible day for you.
On March 28 2013 23:26 FeyFey wrote: I am actually impressed that Stephano could jump into Korea and be at gate keeper level. Feel like everyone hating on the performance and how horrible he did are actually hitting the other gatekeepers really hard that are focused on staying in code S, while Stephano did it just as a side operation.
As for the people that hate seeding, April the 3rd will be a horrible day for you.
The groups are already released. Rain and Last got the seeds like predicted in that other thread. Stephano was replaced by the winner of a wildcard group held between all the 3rd place finishers in the up and downs. KeeN got his spot in Code S
why do most of the world's sc2 fans like foreigners, because they look and act like real people. to do well in the gsl you haave to play at computer speeds, and be perfect, makes for boring games, and to get to that lvl the ammount of personal experience you have to sacrifice, makes you into a boring person.
Most korean interviews, OH i try hard and win for you thanks you thank you.
yes very polite, kind and nice, i like it, but its SO BORING
On March 28 2013 17:35 DarkenedLite wrote: Stephano being happy is important as he's still the flagship hope of foreigner, undisuptably as of right now, I believe. I honestly think he's more of a valuable asset to EG outside of Korea while they focus their newly buffed up KR roster on proleague.
Foreigners that want to train and participate can cycle in as needed, but it never seemed like that was Stephano's style.
IDK, but to me the "flagship hope" would be someone who, you know, actually competes with the Koreans. Not someone who can kind of hold his own and then walks away from it without any real results.
Not judging his decision to leave Korea, but as long as he is unwilling to prove himself in Korea than IMO he can't really be called a foreigner hope. He's just another awesome pro-gamer in the west. One of many.
Like it or not, it ain't for real if it ain't in the GSL.
On March 29 2013 07:08 Cornstarched wrote: why do most of the world's sc2 fans like foreigners, because they look and act like real people. to do well in the gsl you haave to play at computer speeds, and be perfect, makes for boring games, and to get to that lvl the ammount of personal experience you have to sacrifice, makes you into a boring person.
Most korean interviews, OH i try hard and win for you thanks you thank you.
yes very polite, kind and nice, i like it, but its SO BORING
boring is relative. watching the top koreans play sc2 at the highest levels is the opposite of boring for me.
i'm afraid starcraft might not be for you, bud. try watching reality shows instead, like jersey shore. what the people there lack in substance, they make up for by being 'interesting'. :p
EPT
