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Minor tournaments are extremely important for the whole SC2 world. Due to the pyramidal distribution of money in premier events, the up and coming / subtop players who are as dedicated to the game as the top players have to win money by an other way and the weekly cups are a real way. Look at GoOdy. He's an average player who would have probably stopped the game without the existence of ZOTAC/GIGABYTE/Go4SC2/etc... His list of achievements is huge in this kind of tournaments who guarantees him a regular income source.
Look at Nerchio, he finally reached his deserved spot as a top player/tournament winner in 2012 but before that he was already a great player and in a country like Poland which has not the standard of living of France, Germany or Great Britain, these achievements (scroll to the bottom for what we are talking about), while he was struggling in LAN events, certainly guaranteed him to live comfortably.
Like StarVe said, players like Fraer wouldn't have been known without this kind of tournaments. So I'm really sad to see these ones falling and team managers saying that doesn't count. Of course winning a Go4SC2 in 2010 is not relevant anymore but winning events is always a thing. Even if it's online, winning an event proves that you can manage your stress and is, I think, a much better proof of talent than a ladder win.
The pyramidal system is a fact. But if the base of the pyramid is going to reduce, so will be its height.
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Yes! I agree that the importance of weekly/minor tournaments and I initially thought they were valued by most managers, but it doesn't appear so.
Great example with Nerchio :B
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On January 31 2013 09:51 Torte de Lini wrote:
Yes! I agree that the importance of weekly/minor tournaments and I initially thought they were valued by most managers, but it doesn't appear so.
Great example with Nerchio :B
In your article you say that weekly tournaments are pretty much dead in NA while they're always alive in Europe. But the thoughts are only from NA managers. Maybe it's the reason. If you ask to RoxKis, Acer, Millenium, Western Wolves or Empire managers, maybe you'll have a different answer.
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On January 31 2013 10:36 Boucot wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2013 09:51 Torte de Lini wrote:
Yes! I agree that the importance of weekly/minor tournaments and I initially thought they were valued by most managers, but it doesn't appear so.
Great example with Nerchio :B In your article you say that weekly tournaments are pretty much dead in NA while they're always alive in Europe. But the thoughts are only from NA managers. Maybe it's the reason. If you ask to RoxKis, Acer, Millenium, Western Wolves or Empire managers, maybe you'll have a different answer.
I had received a lot of opinions from many teams, most are NA, some are international and more. The problem was that not everyone was willing to let me quote them on paper.
I did not ask Acer, Millenium or Western Wolves however. Nor FXO.Eu, so perhaps something to look into.
The general consensus I got was that marketing and large-scale achievements mattered more than who can beat who.
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What about local lans that range from 50-500 dollars? They seem to have gone the value of weekly tournaments in most cases as well =/
then again this is why I was so sad with the no MLG open bracket. Everything small just doesnt account for much.
Good read though. If only there was a way to easily work towards marketing, without singing/dancing and wearing a clown suit on stream.
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On January 31 2013 11:00 KiF1rE wrote:
What about local lans that range from 50-500 dollars? They seem to have gone the value of weekly tournaments in most cases as well =/
then again this is why I was so sad with the no MLG open bracket. Everything small just doesnt account for much.
Good read though. If only there was a way to easily work towards marketing, without singing/dancing and wearing a clown suit on stream.
HOTS IPL6 open bracket! Be there, I will!
Yeah, I feel sometimes these local tournaments dont have a large enough turnout to justify the 500$ prize, I'm not sure.
Something to check on :B
I will be trying to write my next piece for next week, will take even more talking and conversations @_@
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On January 31 2013 11:02 Torte de Lini wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2013 11:00 KiF1rE wrote:
What about local lans that range from 50-500 dollars? They seem to have gone the value of weekly tournaments in most cases as well =/
then again this is why I was so sad with the no MLG open bracket. Everything small just doesnt account for much.
Good read though. If only there was a way to easily work towards marketing, without singing/dancing and wearing a clown suit on stream. HOTS IPL6 open bracket! Be there, I will! Yeah, I feel sometimes these local tournaments dont have a large enough turnout to justify the 500$ prize, I'm not sure. Something to check on :B I will be trying to write my next piece for next week, will take even more talking and conversations @_@
well the thing with local tournaments at a college lan or whatever, its very easy to get to that, add in a sponsor, have 30+ some people competing with an entry fee... Its not really about justifying the prize money, The issue I have is when those draw several GM's and high masters and the amount of recognition for winning it is less than, an online daily cup... Edit, Actually shouldnt even say less than a daily cup, its practically 0...
Trying to figure out whats going on truly with IPL6 before I commit though, Why I always wait till everything is announced and confirmed, Kind of feel bad for the people that already booked their MLG Dallas stuff when they got the dates lol...
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On February 01 2013 02:05 KiF1rE wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2013 11:02 Torte de Lini wrote:On January 31 2013 11:00 KiF1rE wrote:
What about local lans that range from 50-500 dollars? They seem to have gone the value of weekly tournaments in most cases as well =/
then again this is why I was so sad with the no MLG open bracket. Everything small just doesnt account for much.
Good read though. If only there was a way to easily work towards marketing, without singing/dancing and wearing a clown suit on stream. HOTS IPL6 open bracket! Be there, I will! Yeah, I feel sometimes these local tournaments dont have a large enough turnout to justify the 500$ prize, I'm not sure. Something to check on :B I will be trying to write my next piece for next week, will take even more talking and conversations @_@ well the thing with local tournaments at a college lan or whatever, its very easy to get to that, add in a sponsor, have 30+ some people competing with an entry fee... Its not really about justifying the prize money, The issue I have is when those draw several GM's and high masters and the amount of recognition for winning it is less than, an online daily cup... Edit, Actually shouldnt even say less than a daily cup, its practically 0... Trying to figure out whats going on truly with IPL6 before I commit though, Why I always wait till everything is announced and confirmed, Kind of feel bad for the people that already booked their MLG Dallas stuff when they got the dates lol...
It really depends where if it's a college LAN. I helped with a few college LANs and sometimes they'd make it only a day long. Not everyone can justify lugging their entire computer there for a day, if multiple days; find a place to stay.
I'm going to IPL6, HOTS open bracket + WOL is yum!
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I'll preface my response by saying I've done a boat load of casting in these weekly tournaments. You can see my name on liquipedia for everything I've done I won't mention it now  Nerski. I can for one say the experiences and ability to develop my craft doing these has been absolutely invaluable. Having switched over to the entertainment side of SC2 in 2010 coming from being a pro player in Online Racing previously, I loved SC1 but while I'm quite the talker, I had little experience casting a SC match. Those weekly tournaments allowed me to try a lot of different things and I believe were largely the reason I've had the opportunity to work with organizations like MLG and CSL at lans. Now I've personally been on hiatus since mid 2012 but that's largely do to moving and a lack of stream worthy internet on my part.
With that said I think with the way the system is currently it'd be a huge dis services for players and personalities alike to have these weekly tournaments go by the way side. There really is no to very minimal developmental potential currently out of the major leagues in the scene. Really to get your foot in the door with these leagues you have to build up and market yourself to gain your own following. None of the majors are currently really focused on developing talent. Sure both MLG and IPL have had 'community caster' programs, but they don't really develop you or give you input so much as just give a select few people a platform to be seen.
The above in itself is useful, but only if everyone has a place to first dip their toe into the pool. Test the waters and find out if this is even for you in the first place. Then once you do that decide if your going to dive head first into the pool. Still once you've dove head first into the pool you need a place to hone your craft. These weekly tournaments right now are the only place a large majority of entertainers and lesser known players can have a consistent gig that won't cost them a lot in the way of cash up front. Allowing them to see what works and doesn't work with the fans, and build up a following so they have something to show for their work when they try to land gigs with the major players who can actually pay them.
You take that away and the barrier to entry becomes substantially more expensive, and difficult. Whether that is good or bad would remain to be seen, but I'd be of the opinion that it would be bad for the scene overall.
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On January 31 2013 11:02 Torte de Lini wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2013 11:00 KiF1rE wrote:
What about local lans that range from 50-500 dollars? They seem to have gone the value of weekly tournaments in most cases as well =/
then again this is why I was so sad with the no MLG open bracket. Everything small just doesnt account for much.
Good read though. If only there was a way to easily work towards marketing, without singing/dancing and wearing a clown suit on stream. HOTS IPL6 open bracket! Be there, I will! Yeah, I feel sometimes these local tournaments dont have a large enough turnout to justify the 500$ prize, I'm not sure. Something to check on :B I will be trying to write my next piece for next week, will take even more talking and conversations @_@
I hope they have a lot of slots as I plan on going there to for that hots open bracket :D
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Wanted to add that the write ups have been outstanding torte keep up the good work 
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Great article Torte! I hope for a new influx of weekly cups with HOTS!  It really helps out alot for the NA/EU scene
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Thank you for all the feeback mates ^^
On February 01 2013 04:07 Nerski wrote:I'll preface my response by saying I've done a boat load of casting in these weekly tournaments. You can see my name on liquipedia for everything I've done I won't mention it now Nerski. I can for one say the experiences and ability to develop my craft doing these has been absolutely invaluable. Having switched over to the entertainment side of SC2 in 2010 coming from being a pro player in Online Racing previously, I loved SC1 but while I'm quite the talker, I had little experience casting a SC match. Those weekly tournaments allowed me to try a lot of different things and I believe were largely the reason I've had the opportunity to work with organizations like MLG and CSL at lans. Now I've personally been on hiatus since mid 2012 but that's largely do to moving and a lack of stream worthy internet on my part. With that said I think with the way the system is currently it'd be a huge dis services for players and personalities alike to have these weekly tournaments go by the way side. There really is no to very minimal developmental potential currently out of the major leagues in the scene. Really to get your foot in the door with these leagues you have to build up and market yourself to gain your own following. None of the majors are currently really focused on developing talent. Sure both MLG and IPL have had 'community caster' programs, but they don't really develop you or give you input so much as just give a select few people a platform to be seen. The above in itself is useful, but only if everyone has a place to first dip their toe into the pool. Test the waters and find out if this is even for you in the first place. Then once you do that decide if your going to dive head first into the pool. Still once you've dove head first into the pool you need a place to hone your craft. These weekly tournaments right now are the only place a large majority of entertainers and lesser known players can have a consistent gig that won't cost them a lot in the way of cash up front. Allowing them to see what works and doesn't work with the fans, and build up a following so they have something to show for their work when they try to land gigs with the major players who can actually pay them. You take that away and the barrier to entry becomes substantially more expensive, and difficult. Whether that is good or bad would remain to be seen, but I'd be of the opinion that it would be bad for the scene overall.
You're 100% right, with less minor tournaments, it also means less building blocks for upcoming players and people looking to get exposure. I mean, remember TeamSpeak TL tournaments? I wonder where those went.
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On February 01 2013 04:40 ROOTheognis wrote:Great article Torte! I hope for a new influx of weekly cups with HOTS! It really helps out alot for the NA/EU scene
I'm hoping HotS brings back some of that "early WoL interest" and tournaments!
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On February 01 2013 03:08 Torte de Lini wrote:
It really depends where if it's a college LAN. I helped with a few college LANs and sometimes they'd make it only a day long. Not everyone can justify lugging their entire computer there for a day, if multiple days; find a place to stay.
I'm going to IPL6, HOTS open bracket + WOL is yum!
Maybe one of the good replacements could be to have more open brackets or online qualifiers for the larger events (with community casters). Sure, it doesn't have the same cash incentive that playing in a $50-100 weekly/daily might, but there could be even bigger exposure and the chance to continue in the main tournaments (also increasing the exposure / marketing that so many of the managers are keen on).
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On February 02 2013 07:39 y0su wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2013 03:08 Torte de Lini wrote:
It really depends where if it's a college LAN. I helped with a few college LANs and sometimes they'd make it only a day long. Not everyone can justify lugging their entire computer there for a day, if multiple days; find a place to stay.
I'm going to IPL6, HOTS open bracket + WOL is yum! Maybe one of the good replacements could be to have more open brackets or online qualifiers for the larger events (with community casters). Sure, it doesn't have the same cash incentive that playing in a $50-100 weekly/daily might, but there could be even bigger exposure and the chance to continue in the main tournaments (also increasing the exposure / marketing that so many of the managers are keen on).
Open online qualifiers have definitely been on the rise with IPL & IEM [especially] consistent in that regard.
Most qualifiers are then overshadowed by the following main event, so their result is not necessarily similar to that of weekly cups because weeklies are consistent and can provide recurring names further chances to shine in terms of future weekly cups.
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Really enlightening article. Firstly for NA players the two main reasons to play online cups is to pad their pathetic incomes. Outside Idra/Huk no NA player is making more than 5k a year in Salary, and having a salary at all is exception and not the rule.
Secondly, if NA players seem unappreciative of what online cups they had its because due to time zone/server delay, Koreans much prefer NA tournies over EU ones. This means any given EU player has a much higher chance of actually winning which in turn generates more interest.
Thirdly, ask any player the absolute worst person in terms of skill in the game, and time and time again the team manager will always come up. Lower level team managers have no idea at all what they are doing because they've had the least experience, even worse they actually think they can gauge skill and wonder why their 10 hour a day practice ladder hero cant finally take out that going to college cant bother to practice much Sc2 has been. Generally speaking the higher up in teams you go, the more so Managers give players in gauging skill, its then a multi-factored approach between what can be afforded, who the players think is good, and if it can generate a decent ROI.
Lastly, what online tournmanents show is who is actually really good, but only in their best environment. When going to a Lan tournament you simply will not be in your best environment and alot more can go wrong, for some players it affects them much more than others. Idra for example couldnt win a cup to save his life, and loses alot on ladder, but in Lan he a much stronger opponent. What i personally feel is the most important aspect of online cups is simply rewarding you for being good. Streaming for money is rewarding you for being known and entertaining people, Lan tournament placings reward you with possible salary or slight increase in salary, but very few NA players ever get far enough in a Lan tourny to get much prize money from them. So whats left is Coaching, which again the more famous you are the more students you get and the more you can charge and Online tournies. Personally i think its a real shame how devalued these cups seem to alot of people and just want to end this with both Stephano and Scarlett got their start in online tournies and were would we be without them
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Thirdly, ask any player the absolute worst person in terms of skill in the game, and time and time again the team manager will always come up.
I don't get this? Team managers are part of the playing roster?
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On February 03 2013 07:41 Torte de Lini wrote:Show nested quote +Thirdly, ask any player the absolute worst person in terms of skill in the game, and time and time again the team manager will always come up. I don't get this? Team managers are part of the playing roster?
what I think he means is that, Team managers dont play much and are essentially the worst skill wise in a team and have the most power. And they are the ones gauging the skill of new potential new players.
I know when I went talking to alot of teams the team manager was often gold or under and asking me questions about the game. To try and gauge where I stand, and it always goes in an awkward direction. Though when it comes to teams in my situation it feels like nothing exists in this community for me. Im too pro to join a casual team and im not pro enough to join a pro team, and no competitive communities or academies seem to be open to join that are willing to take a player like me. But that goes full circle with smaller cups, im sitting around 4.5k in earnings from sc2, 0 recognition from those. Majority of those cups or lans dont even show up any where in places like SC2earnings or even profiles like tlpd, Sure you can link to stuff like goody's profile and see a long list, While my list is probably just as long yet its awkward, the stuff I get through lol. While technically I have all that stuff in my resume, its not in a visible place that can easily be researched or searched easily for some reason.
Though something ive been thinking about lately is competitive gaming vs competitive marketing. Competitive gaming Im going to use as pure competition results etc, and competitive marketing is the fanbase, stream viewers etc. And in esports as a whole tournaments no matter the size has always taken the front row seat until this boom with sc2. go back 10 years win a smaller cup or do well, you get recognition and can practice with world champion class players easily, but back then money wasnt everything. Now in SC2 its purely about a marketing engine. Get a good train rolling in hype or marketing and the player is instantly offered things or able to obtain financial support from other new technologies such as streaming. Meanwhile the flipside competitive player gets nothing. And I feel like not only do we need to figure out a way to bring back the base of minor tournaments, But to also bring back the marketing value to them as that has become the overriding source of power in esports lately. Everything used to be about money won back in the day. The old school esports scene used to be like "I did this I won this amount, teams would speak to you." Now SC2 started with that somewhat, It feels like its completely lost that and traded everything for marketing ROI regardless of skill, potential or anything else. Need to bring the ROI value back to a balance, and thats the issue I have not even been able to give a solution for. But thats why the foreign community is stagnating and the korean community is collapsing in places. As the korean community is the complete opposite, They seem to value skill, practice, dedication and they take anyone that can do that on their team as potential, but then they have 0 ROI and eventually the team falls apart but they produce the strongest players, while the foreign scene produces the strongest entertainers. Just needs to find a balance in the community as a whole and the issues on every side, amateur, pro, minor tournaments, major tournaments, will be fixed.
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So I am going to add some sense to what my quote means. Its something that is preached in finance all the time.
Basically when you look at a player you have to look deeper than "omg he won this tournament". Many tournament winners, semi finalists etc are all peaked. We have seen players like bit by bit, hongun etc, all fall from grace because their abilities were not sustainable long term.
A tournament that is quite often filled with mid level at best players, is not a good indicator of future results for that person.
So instead of worrying about how many weeklies some guy has won, you look at where they have placed in majors, their play style, things they can work on to improve (if any) and then other things such as marketability etc etc.
The question asked to me was "Do weekly tournament wins mean anything on a players resume" or something along those lines. The answer is no, because of the above reasons. Win GSL, and then there is something to look at in depth.
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EPT
