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On February 03 2013 09:36 FXOBoSs wrote:
So I am going to add some sense to what my quote means. Its something that is preached in finance all the time.
Basically when you look at a player you have to look deeper than "omg he won this tournament". Many tournament winners, semi finalists etc are all peaked. We have seen players like bit by bit, hongun etc, all fall from grace because their abilities were not sustainable long term.
A tournament that is quite often filled with mid level at best players, is not a good indicator of future results for that person.
So instead of worrying about how many weeklies some guy has won, you look at where they have placed in majors, their play style, things they can work on to improve (if any) and then other things such as marketability etc etc.
The question asked to me was "Do weekly tournament wins mean anything on a players resume" or something along those lines. The answer is no, because of the above reasons. Win GSL, and then there is something to look at in depth.
While I don't think anyone would disagree with what Boss said being 100% accurate. I think that the role weekly tournaments serve is not to get a player picked up by a guy like Boss. Instead it allows them to develop those things that a boss would look at and prepare themselves to make a splash in a major.
The funding they can gain from fans they pick up by winning small tournaments, teams that may give them some level of support, is invaluable to a players continued development if they are not born with a silver spoon in their mouth. Not to mention the practical tournament style experience they gain to help them prepare for tournament play on a larger scale.
Weekly tournaments may never get someone signed to a major team, but without them you would limit players ability to develop significantly. While Boss didn't comment on that I'd find it hard to believe he'd disagree that a world without weekly tournaments would be an easy world for new players to develop in.
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I should change the title to Minor Tournaments - Stepping Stones.
But the title served more to state my original view of what weekly tournaments did for a player and I guess wasn't realistic towards what managers look for :B
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On February 08 2013 05:15 Torte de Lini wrote:
I should change the title to Minor Tournaments - Stepping Stones.
But the title served more to state my original view of what weekly tournaments did for a player and I guess wasn't realistic towards what managers look for :B
its an awkward step though to get to what managers look for. Ranging from the different tiers of teams and the type of players they want. Minor tournaments play a strange roll in developing players careers but not launching them to major or mid tier or even lower tier teams which is accomplished through something entirely different.
Team managers at the top tier teams(salary,teamhouse,etc), look for major championships / popularity to also go with that. So even if there is a down period or an off day from a player they can still be worth something to the team.
mid tier teams (sponsors nothing fancy, no salary/or very little), seem to care more about popularity/stream viewership taking players in the middle of the road in developing, Not a major tournament winner nor expected to be one, but does stuff to get noticed.
low tier teams (nothing major at all) these teams care more about a group of friends that wish to be competitive. Meaning minor tournaments are pointless here.
Atleast this is how I view the categories in teams. The issue I have is minor tournaments are worth nothing seemingly to the community as well. Even performing that upset against a korean or winning the tournament doesnt seem to be worth much in growing a fanbase or anything else, besides tournament experience and the occasional money. Combine this with the issue of teams and growing a player, There isnt much of those early stepping stones. Competitive gaming is more like a ladder atm, where the part of the rungs near the bottom are entirely missing. Smaller teams that will take players that win alot of smaller tournaments and stuff do not exist, even competitive communities there seems to be practically no competitive communities or groups in SC2 and there is a very limited academy market that has very few spots.
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What the scene really needs when it comes to equality for aspiring pro gamers is something that firstly takes skill into account. In BW, it was pretty simple: if you wanted to become a pro gamer, then you needed to become good enough to win a courage tournament to get a pro gamer license. Once you got a pro license, you were eligible to be drafted. You didn't see people that were merely "marketable," that were taking up spots. The scene did alright, somehow.
There's way too much vagueness and arbitrary goal posts atm. Sooner or later, people will start to bash you and your team if you're not getting results. If someone is good and has proven that through getting a license, then you can turn them into something marketable. How much of a "personality" does Fantasy seem to have? Yet, how many fans does he have? A lot. If introverted people were getting the shaft as much as they are now, then he would probably have been lucky to even get on a team if the scene was run by foreigners. Fantasy lost to Draco. Not everyone starts out unbeatable.
I highly doubt there are enough people "in the know" to have any idea of who will be better than who in the future. What was their background in BW or WC 3? How many of the top players have they played? Not having a tournament like the courage tournament is a recipe for turning the scene into a marketing circus, where you can never be sure the player is "legit."
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On February 08 2013 09:29 playa wrote:
What the scene really needs when it comes to equality for aspiring pro gamers is something that firstly takes skill into account. In BW, it was pretty simple: if you wanted to become a pro gamer, then you needed to become good enough to win a courage tournament to get a pro gamer license. Once you got a pro license, you were eligible to be drafted. You didn't see people that were merely "marketable," that were taking up spots. The scene did alright, somehow.
There's way too much vagueness and arbitrary goal posts atm. Sooner or later, people will start to bash you and your team if you're not getting results. If someone is good and has proven that through getting a license, then you can turn them into something marketable. How much of a "personality" does Fantasy seem to have? Yet, how many fans does he have? A lot. If introverted people were getting the shaft as much as they are now, then he would probably have been lucky to even get on a team if the scene was run by foreigners. Fantasy lost to Draco. Not everyone starts out unbeatable.
I highly doubt there are enough people "in the know" to have any idea of who will be better than who in the future. What was their background in BW or WC 3? How many of the top players have they played? Not having a tournament like the courage tournament is a recipe for turning the scene into a marketing circus, where you can never be sure the player is "legit."
The threshold idea like in BW and the courage cup is always interesting. I don't doubt spectators would love this, but would tournament organizers and teams like this?
You're cutting a lot of people's legs by enforcing such an idea. Though I like the idea a lot :B
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Weekly cups should be the bread and butter of the grassroots scene and their disappearance is regrettable for the whole community.
Managers who say they don't care about it are missing something important. Winning weekly tournaments gets practice in an environment similar to a LAN (brackets vs series of opponents), many of which will be top class players. Competing regularly in these sort of tournaments can only be helpful to a player. The amount of "unheard" of "no names" who suddenly burst onto the scene at one LAN who were actually very well known to the followers of this grassroots scene is huge. Many were surprised at their results, expressing disbelief at this no name beating Koreans, perhaps some balance whine followed, but those who watched them win 20 playhem dailies and zotac cups knew of their skill and that they had beaten Koreans many times before.
Next MLG when some "faceless" Euro player the LR thread hasn't heard of goes deep, look at their liquipedia and see their online cup performances. Its likely the list won't be short.
Its good for players and its good for hardcore fans who want to see up and comers regularly compete.
Long live the dailies, weeklies, monthlies.
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On February 09 2013 04:36 _SpiRaL_ wrote:
Next MLG when some "faceless" Euro player the LR thread hasn't heard of goes deep, look at their liquipedia and see their online cup performances. Its likely the list won't be short.
MLG never has "faceless" Euro players because they prefer getting popular players to their events.
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On February 09 2013 05:03 StarVe wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2013 04:36 _SpiRaL_ wrote:
Next MLG when some "faceless" Euro player the LR thread hasn't heard of goes deep, look at their liquipedia and see their online cup performances. Its likely the list won't be short. MLG never has "faceless" Euro players because they prefer getting popular players to their events.
*cough*Open qualifiers+open bracket*cough*
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On February 09 2013 03:59 Torte de Lini wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2013 09:29 playa wrote:
What the scene really needs when it comes to equality for aspiring pro gamers is something that firstly takes skill into account. In BW, it was pretty simple: if you wanted to become a pro gamer, then you needed to become good enough to win a courage tournament to get a pro gamer license. Once you got a pro license, you were eligible to be drafted. You didn't see people that were merely "marketable," that were taking up spots. The scene did alright, somehow.
There's way too much vagueness and arbitrary goal posts atm. Sooner or later, people will start to bash you and your team if you're not getting results. If someone is good and has proven that through getting a license, then you can turn them into something marketable. How much of a "personality" does Fantasy seem to have? Yet, how many fans does he have? A lot. If introverted people were getting the shaft as much as they are now, then he would probably have been lucky to even get on a team if the scene was run by foreigners. Fantasy lost to Draco. Not everyone starts out unbeatable.
I highly doubt there are enough people "in the know" to have any idea of who will be better than who in the future. What was their background in BW or WC 3? How many of the top players have they played? Not having a tournament like the courage tournament is a recipe for turning the scene into a marketing circus, where you can never be sure the player is "legit."
The threshold idea like in BW and the courage cup is always interesting. I don't doubt spectators would love this, but would tournament organizers and teams like this? You're cutting a lot of people's legs by enforcing such an idea. Though I like the idea a lot :B
If I could run a tournament, I would. There's two ways of looking at it; one, you have an exact replica of how BW worked, where you had to have a pro license to be a pro. I think each team was able to give 1 or 2 pro licenses per year to prospects that they liked, if they hadn't managed to win courage yet. For this to happen, there probably has to be some unification between all of the parties.
So, you say, hey, that's either unlikely to happen or at least it will take some time. So, how else can you look at holding a tournament like this. What happens in most tournaments that amateurs play in? If anyone cares about the tournament in the first place, a good pro was probably in the tournament and he knocked you out. It's as if you have to be a real good pro before you can even become a pro.
Imagine how hard it would be to gain any light in BW if amateurs were getting knocked out by players like Flash? If anyone were actually able to take a series against a good pro, then they should have been a pro a long time before, anyways.
There needs to be a tournament, held monthly, or w/e, that is strictly for the best non Koreans who aren't on a pro team. Not just a tournament, but something that is actually focusing in on the people that are doing well in these tournaments, be it interviews or whatever.
If the best non pros are playing in the same tournament and a manager of a team that is looking to recruit people, he wouldn't be doing his job if he weren't strongly taking into account what's happening in said tournament(s). Say you won a tournament or finished higher than another applicant that got the roster spot. Similar age, play style, etc etc. Well, at least that should probably take away some of the mystery: they're saying you have to work on being more "whoreable."
A tournament like this would help everyone in the scene. I heard some people from complexity say they don't really take into account past esports history. I played some BW. I look at Terran players and Toss players, and you would have to be so f'ing blind to not see how strong of a correlation there is. So you have blind people running teams who are simply begging for more help. You need something that spells it out for the blind. Call it the braille tournament.
At the end of the day, it comes down to recognition of players in the scene. If you're not gaining recognition and letting people with say get a better gauge of where you stand, what have you really gained? The point of becoming a pro is to get money for your efforts. A lot more focus has to be put on highlighting people that are prospective pros, IMO.
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On January 31 2013 06:01 StarVe wrote:
Ah, I just love weekly cups, without them I wouldn't have noticed players like fraer nearly as quickly and I've been following and pushing him ever since I did recognize his skill and sheer awesomeness.
Management guys and whatever may not care much for them anymore, but I do think they're a good indicator of who will be strong in the future.
Sortof did very well in Playhems early 2012 and I wasn't surprised when he started showing good results at WCS later that year. fraer won countless Playhems and ZOTAC Monthly Finals over Nerchio, Hyun and others and then he attended his first big offline event at DreamHack Summer, beat Dimaga, Puma, MVPVampire, SaSe and others and got to top four and he has been a top EU pro ever since.
It doesn't work that way for everyone but you can still get some knowledge and value out of weekly cups in my opinion.
A bit sad that teams don't try to go for up&comers who perform in weekly cups first and only jump on the bandwagon when they qualify for big events, we need more teams that don't try to be EG and build up their own talent.
At least they're great money-wise for teamless players or players without a high salary.
Considering I used to do what these guys do, I couldn't help but agree. I don't think these guys want to look let alone expand their rosters unless there's a big fish (I should I say what they perceive to be a big fish) out there.
Let me just say this right now: everyone is marketable. You just have to know how to do it when it comes to coaching them. If you think otherwise then you aren't really doing your job when it comes to appealing to your audience. Some people sell themselves too short and in some cases they need to learn how to talk even if it's just a little bit. In summary, skill would always be my first criteria and marketability would be a lot lower. Why? Because you can teach a player to walk the walk and talk the talk.
On February 09 2013 05:16 playa wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2013 03:59 Torte de Lini wrote:On February 08 2013 09:29 playa wrote:
What the scene really needs when it comes to equality for aspiring pro gamers is something that firstly takes skill into account. In BW, it was pretty simple: if you wanted to become a pro gamer, then you needed to become good enough to win a courage tournament to get a pro gamer license. Once you got a pro license, you were eligible to be drafted. You didn't see people that were merely "marketable," that were taking up spots. The scene did alright, somehow.
There's way too much vagueness and arbitrary goal posts atm. Sooner or later, people will start to bash you and your team if you're not getting results. If someone is good and has proven that through getting a license, then you can turn them into something marketable. How much of a "personality" does Fantasy seem to have? Yet, how many fans does he have? A lot. If introverted people were getting the shaft as much as they are now, then he would probably have been lucky to even get on a team if the scene was run by foreigners. Fantasy lost to Draco. Not everyone starts out unbeatable.
I highly doubt there are enough people "in the know" to have any idea of who will be better than who in the future. What was their background in BW or WC 3? How many of the top players have they played? Not having a tournament like the courage tournament is a recipe for turning the scene into a marketing circus, where you can never be sure the player is "legit."
The threshold idea like in BW and the courage cup is always interesting. I don't doubt spectators would love this, but would tournament organizers and teams like this? You're cutting a lot of people's legs by enforcing such an idea. Though I like the idea a lot :B If I could run a tournament, I would. There's two ways of looking at it; one, you have an exact replica of how BW worked, where you had to have a pro license to be a pro. I think each team was able to give 1 or 2 pro licenses per year to prospects that they liked, if they hadn't managed to win courage yet. For this to happen, there probably has to be some unification between all of the parties. So, you say, hey, that's either unlikely to happen or at least it will take some time. So, how else can you look at holding a tournament like this. What happens in most tournaments that amateurs play in? If anyone cares about the tournament in the first place, a good pro was probably in the tournament and he knocked you out. It's as if you have to be a real good pro before you can even become a pro. Imagine how hard it would be to gain any light in BW if amateurs were getting knocked out by players like Flash? If anyone were actually able to take a series against a good pro, then they should have been a pro a long time before, anyways. There needs to be a tournament, held monthly, or w/e, that is strictly for the best non Koreans who aren't on a pro team. Not just a tournament, but something that is actually focusing in on the people that are doing well in these tournaments, be it interviews or whatever. If the best non pros are playing in the same tournament and a manager of a team that is looking to recruit people, he wouldn't be doing his job if he weren't strongly taking into account what's happening in said tournament(s). Say you won a tournament or finished higher than another applicant that got the roster spot. Similar age, play style, etc etc. Well, at least that should probably take away some of the mystery: they're saying you have to work on being more "whoreable." A tournament like this would help everyone in the scene. I heard some people from complexity say they don't really take into account past esports history. I played some BW. I look at Terran players and Toss players, and you would have to be so f'ing blind to not see how strong of a correlation there is. So you have blind people running teams who are simply begging for more help. You need something that spells it out for the blind. Call it the braille tournament. At the end of the day, it comes down to recognition of players in the scene. If you're not gaining recognition and letting people with say get a better gauge of where you stand, what have you really gained? The point of becoming a pro is to get money for your efforts. A lot more focus has to be put on highlighting people that are prospective pros, IMO.
It's a little sad that we don't have a real system for pro gamer's anymore. Your little sister could even call themselves a pro gamer now. This was just one of many things I put in my manifesto when it came to unification. Not my problem though, if some organization thinks a certain player is worth money to them by all means put them on payroll. It's not my money!
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EPT
