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The Armchair Athleticism critical series is an opinion-base article series regarding the issues and sociocultural deficiencies of the E-Sports and StarCraft scene. All articles are perceptive-base and revolving around my own experiences and understanding of the subculture.
+ Show Spoiler [summary introduction] +The Solo Trail – Unbeaten - Posted on October 20th, 2012Short version of credentials: - Manager of 5 progaming teams (50+ professional players)
- Writer for 11 E-sports websites (5 team sites + 4 organizations: 150+ docs/articles)
- Organizer or Contributor of 11 community events (74,000 viewers/attendants)
- Some video-editing for one or two organizations, nothing big, just twitch.tv highlight-editing, presentational writing, etc.
Why are you starting your own space? I was listening to the suggestions of several friends and I finally started this space after I hit a dead-end in my endeavours in E-Sports. I’m at a point where I am not really affiliated with anyone and now’s a better time than ever to do some opinion topics. Doing my own content meant I would be alone and would work around my own initiative, drive and interest. However, it also meant that I may do something that requires more work than I thought and I would be on my own. It meant that the community reception can be more direct and harsh towards me personally and my views as I would not be backed by some credible organization as when I was writer for some. In the end, this series that took me about a month of writing, editing, verification and re-writing will really be everything I’ve learned, observed and felt throughout my time. I started out with three pieces and ended up going to ten. All of them delve into inspecting the five perspectives of the scene: teams, tournaments, players, spectators and contributors. Ultimately, it aims to really take a strong look into the many issues that inhibit the StarCraft community and E-Sports culture.
Minor Tournaments – A Progamer’s Résumé - Posted on January 30, 2013
With the vanishing of Team Liquid’s Tournament tracker, there’s been a noticeable diminishment of minor tournaments since the end of 2012 and the start of 2013. We spoke about the importance of minor [weekly] tournaments and opportunity for up-and-coming progamers in the article: Splitting the Scene for Regional Champions.
Minor tournaments in 2010 and 2011 were the building blocks for progamers to build up their résumé in terms of achievements and earn increments of exposure. Weekly tournaments specifically offered consistently real tournament experience for those “ladder warriors” (a term used by some managers for players who are extremely powerful on the ladder but fail to achieve during tournament matches) and players looking to really test their abilities against some of the more establish pros. Indeed, some of the best players of today, have a good stack of their career rankings in weekly and minor tournaments such as NaNiwa, Snute and Stephano:
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/bO4A0dk.png) This is a snapshot of the 2010, 2011 & 2012 minor tournament winnings from all three notable foreign players: Snute, Stephano and NaNiwa (screenshot is courtesy of Liquipedia)
As shown, the value and usage of these minor tournaments are quite attractive for many professionals, established or not. Back during 2010 and 2011, the number of major tournaments offering high prize-money was not as many or desirable as they are now (First place: 5,000$ from MLG, 6,500$ from IEM, 15,000$ from IPl: did not always include travel). Thus, the convenience of minor events being at-home as well as the return of payment notably raised the value of players exponentially, while also offering them experience and a variety of opponents both at their skill-level and lower (making tournaments a lot faster and not stretched across three-day periods [for weekly tournaments]).
However, the diminishment of weekly and even minor tournaments could be signs of a changing scene. In Europe, major staples of weekly tournaments: GameCreds, Antec, IMBAlonian Star Cup, CraftCup, Alt-Tab Gaming Trophy. For America and South Korea, there are no more weekly tournaments whatsoever. Are weekly tournaments no longer valued or considered amongst teams and managers?
According to some current player-managers, both of the largest organizations and those growing, these weekly tournament achievements were not always of a real priority of consideration before major events, marketability and actual results:
Ex-FXOpen, Josh Dentrinos: “I care about skill. Look at it this way: I predict things for a living, so I use those skils to predict who will be good in the future. Past results do not represent future results”
Clarity Gaming: “Honestly, we weigh their marketability the most, as well as how they mesh with our team environment. After that it becomes more about results: we generally consider qualifier results the most important, with weekly tournament achievements somewhere after that. Major tournament results obviously come first. Right now, desire to come to the house is also a huge factor, we’re not nearly as interested in picking up a player that doesn’t/can’t come to the house.
Honestly when it comes down to what results get looked at on a player resume, our main focus relies on qualifiers for major tournaments. You can win numerous online cups these days and it just wouldn’t be enough to significantly increase your value as a player if you’re not trying to take the next step in qualifying for International LAN events.”
Evil Geniuses: “Weekly tournaments, in Starcraft 2, account for very little now.”
Ex-Quantic, Brad Carney: “When looking for the next big name player for our team we would probably look at skill first. There is a lot of skill but there are some people who just can’t “finish”. So people who could close out a tournament and have the confidence to do so would be priority number one. When looking for an up and comer, seeing who is winning a lot of dailies really helped. Time is also a huge factor. If someone doesn’t have the time either now or in the near future, it factors in on a decision.”.
LighT eSports, Victor Chen: “Weekly tournament achievements fall in probably one of the lowest categories.”
While progamers and aspiring players value weekly tournament organizations such as PlayHem’s Daily, ESL’s Go4SC2 and Xilence/Competo; few team managers account for it when interested in acquiring players. This is especially true in 2012 and 2013, where the accessibility of major events such as IPL and MLG are less costly to the player and team and more rewarding in terms of exposure and worth. Blizzard’s BWC, MLG Arenas and IPL’s Proleague all offered regional qualifiers as well as covering travel expenses towards anyone who qualified. This helped promote Koreans getting to foreign events while also ensuring North-Americans earn opportunities to achieve.
This disproportion of value of weekly tournaments creates misunderstood notions of one’s own value. This may be held especially true for many players currently teamless such as ex-TSL Hyun who has a current asking price of 2,500 and travel to international tournaments. An arguably heavy toll for anyone considering this 53-first placed finishing progamer [plus 15-straight IPL Fight Club Showmatch victories]. This possible misbelief ultimately leads to players’ misunderstanding their real worth as well as constantly comparing themselves to players they beat and their salaries. While Hyun has an impressive winning streak in smaller tournaments and showmatches, his on and off record with the GSL as well as average placements in IPL, DreamHack and TSL4 lead managers to consider other potential rising stars.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/JUWLoH5.png) Major events and LAN are accounted at a higher value than that of weekly tournaments and showmatches according to many team-managers (screenshot is courtesy of Liquipedia
Can the same be said for casters? I caught up with IPL’s Frank Fields [Mirhi] as well as NASL’s Dan Chou [Frodan] to get their insight on the matter. Does casting tournaments , small or big, add to one’s resume as we first thought for players?
NASL Dan Chou: “Weekly tournaments give an amazing platform for beginner casters for three reasons. One, they have the same audience -- spectators who love the "homey" and personal atmosphere of the tournament which puts out enough consistent content to saturate their desires -- on a consistent basis to practice their material on similar to stand-up comedians. Two, they have a high margin for error due to a loving low-count audience that endears the aspiring casters who work with little to no compensation. Three, they can build their own repertoire of history with local/semi-pro players for a storyline that main stage casters would not know if they were behind the same microphone.
However, I feel that the most important thing for aspiring commentators to learn from these small tournaments is humility and work ethic. It is a true shame when these once-unknown people achieve a status only to lose their approachability and allow their exaggerated "fame" to inflate their ego. Lastly, no caster got to the top without due diligence and sacrifice. This factor will stop 90% of people from getting anywhere in this industry alone. That or I-was-here-first fortune.”
IPL Frank Fields: “For casters, we chose 2 casters who are known for casting playhem dailies [Robin and Kibbelz]. So it's a good way for exposure and practice”
Whether a caster or a player, the interest in weekly tournaments may be diminishing. As more and more weekly tournament organizations move on to new games and areas, the amount of money earned by players becomes more centered and emphasized on major tournaments and attendance. What direction will this mean about the separation between aspiring players, their result listings and the current established progamers? Will Heart of the Swarm merely continue this trend, emphasize the large events? Or will it revive the demand for minor tournaments, weekly competitions and create new reputations for new up-and-coming players?
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This informed series of written pieces could not have been achieved without the help and opinions of my peers and friends. Below are the people I wish to thank for their insight, accuracy/consistency check or expert opinion on the numerous topics: thank you
- Alex Schwartz (Clarity Gaming General Manager - Virgil)
- Alex Shieferdecker (Team Liquid Progaming Team Content Manager - tree.hugger)
- Brad Carney (Previously Gaming Director for Quantic Gaming - Lefty)
- Chris Chan (Founder of ChanManV Production)
- Cody Connors (Evil Geniuses Manager - Evoli)
- Dan Chou (North-American Star League Broadcaster/Commentator - Frodan)
- Eric Grady (ex-Cyber-Sports Network's Director of Events - Usurp)
- Flo Yao (Quantic Gaming’s Progamer - Flo)
- Frank Fields (IGN Pro League's Operations Manager of the StarCraft II Division - Mirhi)
- Jacqueline Geller (eSports Network Coordinator of Blizzard)
- John Clark (ex-Cyber-Sports Network Executive Director of Operations)
- Josh Dentrinos (FXOpen’s Director - Boss)
- Kevin Chang (Professional E-Sports Photographer - Silverfire)
- Marc McEntegart (Team Liquid Writer - SirJolt)
- Matt Weber (Team Liquid Director of Operations - Heyoka)
- Payam Toghyan (ROOT Gaming Progamer - TT1)
- Shawn Simon (Team Liquid Progamer - Sheth)
- Steven Bonnell II (Progamer/Entertainer - Destiny)
- Thomas Shifrer (ESFI World Senior Journalist)
- Tom McCarthy (Partner Marketing for Complexity Gaming - Laxx)
- Victor Chen (LighT eSports Team Manager - Ursadon)
If you'd like more information about the series (more pieces about different aspects of the scene will be released periodically), to contact me privately or to generously give me some siteviews on my website, you can follow the following link:
You can also follow me on Twitter where I tweet public news and information about the scene including roster changes, controversy and/or overall E-Sports news: @TorteDeLini
Thank you very much and I appreciate all feedback or corrections.
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I used to watch a lot of daily or weekly tournaments like Playhem to get my daily dose of SC2 but recently, there is just too much to watch for me to pay attention to small tournaments. NASL ( a few months back), IPL, Iron Squid, Proleague, GSL.. so much to watch and so little time so the small tournaments gets pushed aside from my sched.
I wonder how much this affects potential progamers.
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Weekly tournaments, I feel, is more for the players than it is for the viewers. I'm sure the viewers of a weekly tournament won't bring in enough income to cover the prize costs (ie. Ad revenue), but it actually does help to pitch the name of the organizers (who would have heard of playhem without their weekly cups?). For the players, and I've played in a few tournaments myself, it helps to adapt them to a tournament setting as the tournaments are much more accessible than other larger competitions like MLG. Also, as you pointed out, it aids in showcasing the skill of the player, though it doesn't matter too much now. I was always a hyun fan but after his domination in IPLFC I like him even more.
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I love seeing the online cups and weekly tournaments because they let the up-and-comers appear on the scene and prove themselves against some of the best. They provide a decent gauge of skill levels in players, but premier tournaments take precendence because of they attract more of the best and encourage them to play with more focus because of the larger prize pools. Perhaps there has been a reduction in online cups because the organizers realize they aren't the greatest player recruitment center, regardless of how well they do in them (The HyuN example is a good one of this).
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I know some do but i wish the bigger tournaments like mlg and nasl would work together with the playhems and others, similar to poker were if you win a small tourney you get seeded into a bigger tourney were you can win some money and get seeded into a mlg or something along those lines if all the tourney work together i feel that it would help bring up alot of AM gamer and casters also help some pros get into tourneys if they arent seeded shining a little light on the smaller ones
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I'd like to point out that the Playhem Daily pages and ranking in particular are outdated. On that note I'd also like to add that Snute has won a shit ton more of them than you would otherwise be lead to believe unless you counted them one by one yourself.
Weekly/Daily online tournaments are really good for both players and scene in general, which makes it all the sadder how stupidly underrated they are. Not gonna go on a rant now, so I'm just going to say that people who are interested in discovering the new breakout player should keep an eye out for these Minor tournaments. Let's not forget that the list of online bonjwa turned superstar includes, but is not limited to, Stephano, Nerchio, TaeJa, Life, HyuN, Snute. All of them demolished competition that would have otherwise been considered far superior at the time, before making a name for themselves at big LANs / the GSL. ^^
I would also like to add that many of the players labelled as "patch zergs" by people noobs have actually done quite well in online tournaments before managing to get themselves in the spotlight of the big stage. Too bad few people paid attention to that. Just saying ^^
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More weekly/daily cups would help the NA/EU up and comers immensely. I feel like it would partially make up for the advantage Koreans have with their superior ladder, giving us new guys a place to gauge our skill against the pros.
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An extremely solid post Torte! The only thing that I found lacking is your opinion, I want to know what you think about what hots will do to weekly tourneys and if you value weekly cups.
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Great writeup, only halfway through but so far it's very interesting!
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Excellent article, as always. One thing you didn't point out was what these minor tournaments were for your average Starcraft player. Every week you'd have a chance to try and get deep into a tournament that many, many pros played in and maybe if you were lucky, or skilled enough, go up against a pro yourself. I know someone who entered just to do that, as he was good enough never to win but always to face pro players such as Sage and Hyun etc.
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I am not to surprised that teams don't care much for online tournaments anymore. It's a shame it makes it really hard for new comers because lots of major tournaments have a lot of invites and few qualifying spots. Tournaments that have qualifying spot you are also competing verse code S korean players.
Of course that means if you do well and beat some code S players and can make it through the qualifier you are probably going to get some attention, but does make it really hard for a new player to get his name out there. I just wish major tournaments were pure qualifiers with only top 3 getting seeded into the next event.
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Nice writeup. Also thanks for the key ^^
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Ah, someone snagged the key on the image :D
Nice job!
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Bah. Beat me to it. Maybe if I hadn't read the actual article up to that point  ))
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I feel like you are forgetting the most important thing to the semi-pro, income.
The playhem dailies and other like it were an actual source of income for quite a few players that were outside of the big paying positions in the Majors. If teams are picking up that slack and paying there players more (and earlier in the process) than maybe the loss wont affect the players much but I'd be very interested to hear from players that historically were earners in this regard.
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Sorry I messed up the poll on my phone  .
On a serious note I think weekly tournaments are necessary for the e sport scene. One word is all I need to utter,
HYUN
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Boss left FXO?
Weekly cups are important because it was a sort of income supplement and a way for lesser known and up and coming players to get experience and minor exposure. If you're an unknown player, you're not going to do well at your premier LAN debut short of a miracle. It makes it harder to become a progamer, which is unfortunate
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On January 31 2013 05:46 Gofarman wrote:
I feel like you are forgetting the most important thing to the semi-pro, income.
The playhem dailies and other like it were an actual source of income for quite a few players that were outside of the big paying positions in the Majors. If teams are picking up that slack and paying there players more (and earlier in the process) than maybe the loss wont affect the players much but I'd be very interested to hear from players that historically were earners in this regard.
As shown, the value and usage of these minor tournaments are quite attractive for many professionals, established or not. Back during 2010 and 2011, the number of major tournaments offering high prize-money was not as many or desirable as they are now (First place: 5,000$ from MLG, 6,500$ from IEM, 15,000$ from IPl: did not always include travel). Thus, the convenience of minor events being at-home as well as the return of payment notably raised the value of players exponentially, while also offering them experience and a variety of opponents both at their skill-level and lower (making tournaments a lot faster and not stretched across three-day periods [for weekly tournaments]).
I think I was not clear in that regard. Maybe I was too implicit, but yes; I agree with you!
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Ah, I just love weekly cups, without them I wouldn't have noticed players like fraer nearly as quickly and I've been following and pushing him ever since I did recognize his skill and sheer awesomeness.
Management guys and whatever may not care much for them anymore, but I do think they're a good indicator of who will be strong in the future.
Sortof did very well in Playhems early 2012 and I wasn't surprised when he started showing good results at WCS later that year. fraer won countless Playhems and ZOTAC Monthly Finals over Nerchio, Hyun and others and then he attended his first big offline event at DreamHack Summer, beat Dimaga, Puma, MVPVampire, SaSe and others and got to top four and he has been a top EU pro ever since.
It doesn't work that way for everyone but you can still get some knowledge and value out of weekly cups in my opinion.
A bit sad that teams don't try to go for up&comers who perform in weekly cups first and only jump on the bandwagon when they qualify for big events, we need more teams that don't try to be EG and build up their own talent.
At least they're great money-wise for teamless players or players without a high salary.
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Most of the weekly cups are gone now . It really was a good source for some income for players, and also good experience. Teams definitely don't pay players more as weekly cups go away though.
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On January 31 2013 06:27 goswser wrote:Most of the weekly cups are gone now . It really was a good source for some income for players, and also good experience. Teams definitely don't pay players more as weekly cups go away though.
Most cups are in EU, as a player-manager, I used to send weekly letters to my players reminding them of upcoming weekly events. Most didn't sign up, but it kept me aware of who were constantly achieving/participating.
All NA cups are gone (or practically) all and a lot of current weekly cups don't advertise on the forums.
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Now with global play, I feel it's a lot more insignificant all the cups are on EU. While it is a pain for korean players wishing to participate in them because of the absolutely awful latency, for American and European players it's fine.
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I'm really hoping weekly tournaments in SEA get a lot more promotion on TL.
SEA feels like a lost city of Atlantis in STarCraft
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Canada1169 Posts
Love the amount put into this, also generous of you. It's a cool article.
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Yeah when I do research on the SEA scene I always find a lot of tournaments that players such as Moonglade and Pig seem to do well in. If they are purely online, it might not be a bad idea to just move the tournaments to the NA server, it feels like they would get a lot more exposure that way.
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And to be honest, NA players don't really appreciate weekly cups anyway from my limited experience, the more recent NA ZOTAC Cups have been almost exclusively KR players vs EU players with very few sign-ups, EU cups are always a lot more populated.
There are reasons for the absence of NA weeklies and one of the main ones is probably a lack of demand.
To Torte de Lini, since you already put so much work into this, I'd have liked maybe a statement from an EU team or two as well, might have been a bit different because of the differences in the scenes, I don't know, here it's almost purely NA-focused (and Boss as a retired KR/SEA guy ^^).
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On January 31 2013 06:44 InsidiA wrote:
Love the amount put into this, also generous of you. It's a cool article.
Thanks <3
On January 31 2013 06:49 StarVe wrote:
And to be honest, NA players don't really appreciate weekly cups anyway from my limited experience, the more recent NA ZOTAC Cups have been almost exclusively KR players vs EU players with very few sign-ups, EU cups are always a lot more populated.
There are reasons for the absence of NA weeklies and one of the main ones is probably a lack of demand.
Unfortunately, I have to mimic the same sentiment. A lot of players don't really take advantage of the weekly cups. They may have a good reason + real life, but some are just inherently disinterested.
A lot of weekly cups also take hours in a day, an amount of time some players don't want to divulge (Playhem has a lot of sign-ups, so the brackets are brutal: 2 BO1s and then 2 hours wait for everyone else to catch up).
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On January 31 2013 06:29 Torte de Lini wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2013 06:27 goswser wrote:Most of the weekly cups are gone now . It really was a good source for some income for players, and also good experience. Teams definitely don't pay players more as weekly cups go away though. Most cups are in EU, as a player-manager, I used to send weekly letters to my players reminding them of upcoming weekly events. Most didn't sign up, but it kept me aware of who were constantly achieving/participating. All NA cups are gone (or practically) all and a lot of current weekly cups don't advertise on the forums.
Yeah, I worked with a group of guys that wanted to achieve that pro status and I consistently pushed these tourneys on them, the guys that didn't do them have almost all fell off. The couple that took them in stride still have that dream burning even if the skill isn't there yet.
I never really thought about WHY certain players would jump on them and other wouldn't, after some short thought it might just be confidence. The ladder is a different beast and the belief in the match-making system that many players have leads them down a place where they might lose a game or two but they believe that they can always win, they at least have a chance. Tournaments are truly a different beast and even before the whole bo3 theory crafting strategy a player has to believe that they can win. The Ego that player has to have to consider themselves an opponent to the best (not necessarily an equal, but someone at least worthy) seems like a undervalued talent when scouting.
Or maybe I'm just crazy.
I don't really have a conclusion but it got my mind twisting so maybe someone else would too.
EDIT (after reading the above post)- Time is a serious concern for some wanna-be pros and probably a legitimate reason to not do daily or weekly cups; I'm not happy with that as a good reason for most though.
EDIT2- I suppose there are a lot of ways to test this mental strength of a player outside of casual tournaments but I think it would be the simplest and quickest way to ascertain the condition of player in the above regard. Yeah.
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To Torte de Lini, since you already put so much work into this, I'd have liked maybe a statement from an EU team or two as well, might have been a bit different because of the differences in the scenes, I don't know, here it's almost purely NA-focused (and Boss as a retired KR/SEA guy ^^).
everyone I know is mostly from NA with SaSe in KR right now :X
I had a quote from an EU/International team, but the person was not comfortable being quoted.
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On January 31 2013 07:32 Torte de Lini wrote:Show nested quote +To Torte de Lini, since you already put so much work into this, I'd have liked maybe a statement from an EU team or two as well, might have been a bit different because of the differences in the scenes, I don't know, here it's almost purely NA-focused (and Boss as a retired KR/SEA guy ^^). everyone I know is mostly from NA with SaSe in KR right now :X I had a quote from an EU/International team, but the person was not comfortable being quoted.
Yeah, I assumed so, since you're from NA your connections should be mostly on NA. I was just a bit curious whether there were some differences in how teams from various continents view the scene, no big deal.
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the European weekly cups get a lot of attention, both from players and viewers.
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On January 31 2013 07:38 StarVe wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2013 07:32 Torte de Lini wrote:To Torte de Lini, since you already put so much work into this, I'd have liked maybe a statement from an EU team or two as well, might have been a bit different because of the differences in the scenes, I don't know, here it's almost purely NA-focused (and Boss as a retired KR/SEA guy ^^). everyone I know is mostly from NA with SaSe in KR right now :X I had a quote from an EU/International team, but the person was not comfortable being quoted. Yeah, I assumed so, since you're from NA your connections should be mostly on NA. I was just a bit curious whether there were some differences in how teams from various continents view the scene, no big deal.
pretty sure the big name European teams dont care about them either. its the smaller teams with talented/good but unknown players that care about them a lot.
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Fxopen invitational going on right now, is this a big tournament or small tournament? Just wondering
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Pretty big tournament iirc.
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Ex-FXOpen, Josh Dentrinos:
“I care about skill. Look at it this way: I predict things for a living, so I use those skills to predict who will be good in the future. Past results do not represent future results”
Is it me or does quote sound incredibly stupid?
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On January 31 2013 06:49 Torte de Lini wrote:
A lot of weekly cups also take hours in a day, an amount of time some players don't want to divulge (Playhem has a lot of sign-ups, so the brackets are brutal: 2 BO1s and then 2 hours wait for everyone else to catch up).
I disagree with the time investment, but hey, I wouldn't know anything =P.
On a serious tone the general daily lasted between 3-4 hours, and the prize on Mon-Fri was 45$ for first. (11.25$/hr at a 4 hour tournament, more than min wage in the US iirc).
The only time we ever waited 2 hours for something is attributed to one epic of a series, (Revival v Everize).
I would say the time investment for players is well worth it if they know they can win consistently, look at Hyun, Snute, Revival, Violet, etc. They consistently made bank doing it and got great practice (I've been told from several players that they enjoyed the practice they got from doing the dailies).
I liked the article a lot. Hope to see some more =)
Edit: The first few rounds usually you'd get Hyun vs someone who stood no chance, but every time someone lost that was in bronze or silver to a pro I always was told by the individual they love playing just to have the chance to play with their favourite player. That's what develops love for a player and storyline in my opinion. Interacting with fans by playing for money and getting a warm up, sounds like one of the best win-wins ever.
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On January 31 2013 07:58 Emuking wrote:
Ex-FXOpen, Josh Dentrinos:
“I care about skill. Look at it this way: I predict things for a living, so I use those skills to predict who will be good in the future. Past results do not represent future results”
Is it me or does quote sound incredibly stupid?
It's saying something without saying anything.
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Great topic. Fittingly I watched go4sc2 for the first time in months today... I miss watching these tournaments all the time
I'm wonder what role (if any) viewership has played? For me there big thing that's lowered how much I watch the smaller tournaments is the disconnect from viewers. It comes from all aspects; Players not wanting observers/casters, downtime (especially for casters), and finally a lack of (English) casters (in EU). + Show Spoiler + Unrelated, but I also got turned off by the lack of (good) terran players...
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On January 31 2013 08:03 Unfortunate wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2013 06:49 Torte de Lini wrote:
A lot of weekly cups also take hours in a day, an amount of time some players don't want to divulge (Playhem has a lot of sign-ups, so the brackets are brutal: 2 BO1s and then 2 hours wait for everyone else to catch up).
I disagree with the time investment, but hey, I wouldn't know anything =P. On a serious tone the general daily lasted between 3-4 hours, and the prize on Mon-Fri was 45$ for first. (11.25$/hr at a 4 hour tournament, more than min wage in the US iirc). The only time we ever waited 2 hours for something is attributed to one epic of a series, (Revival v Everize). I would say the time investment for players is well worth it if they know they can win consistently, look at Hyun, Snute, Revival, Violet, etc. They consistently made bank doing it and got great practice (I've been told from several players that they enjoyed the practice they got from doing the dailies). I liked the article a lot. Hope to see some more =) Edit: The first few rounds usually you'd get Hyun vs someone who stood no chance, but every time someone lost that was in bronze or silver to a pro I always was told by the individual they love playing just to have the chance to play with their favourite player. That's what develops love for a player and storyline in my opinion. Interacting with fans by playing for money and getting a warm up, sounds like one of the best win-wins ever.
Ha, I would too sometimes, but it all varies on the person.
Thanks ^^
On January 31 2013 07:58 Emuking wrote:
Ex-FXOpen, Josh Dentrinos:
“I care about skill. Look at it this way: I predict things for a living, so I use those skills to predict who will be good in the future. Past results do not represent future results”
Is it me or does quote sound incredibly stupid?
It's definitely different from what others told me. I don't think it was stupid, more brief for the sake of the article's relevance.
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Minor tournaments are extremely important for the whole SC2 world. Due to the pyramidal distribution of money in premier events, the up and coming / subtop players who are as dedicated to the game as the top players have to win money by an other way and the weekly cups are a real way. Look at GoOdy. He's an average player who would have probably stopped the game without the existence of ZOTAC/GIGABYTE/Go4SC2/etc... His list of achievements is huge in this kind of tournaments who guarantees him a regular income source.
Look at Nerchio, he finally reached his deserved spot as a top player/tournament winner in 2012 but before that he was already a great player and in a country like Poland which has not the standard of living of France, Germany or Great Britain, these achievements (scroll to the bottom for what we are talking about), while he was struggling in LAN events, certainly guaranteed him to live comfortably.
Like StarVe said, players like Fraer wouldn't have been known without this kind of tournaments. So I'm really sad to see these ones falling and team managers saying that doesn't count. Of course winning a Go4SC2 in 2010 is not relevant anymore but winning events is always a thing. Even if it's online, winning an event proves that you can manage your stress and is, I think, a much better proof of talent than a ladder win.
The pyramidal system is a fact. But if the base of the pyramid is going to reduce, so will be its height.
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Yes! I agree that the importance of weekly/minor tournaments and I initially thought they were valued by most managers, but it doesn't appear so.
Great example with Nerchio :B
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On January 31 2013 09:51 Torte de Lini wrote:
Yes! I agree that the importance of weekly/minor tournaments and I initially thought they were valued by most managers, but it doesn't appear so.
Great example with Nerchio :B
In your article you say that weekly tournaments are pretty much dead in NA while they're always alive in Europe. But the thoughts are only from NA managers. Maybe it's the reason. If you ask to RoxKis, Acer, Millenium, Western Wolves or Empire managers, maybe you'll have a different answer.
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On January 31 2013 10:36 Boucot wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2013 09:51 Torte de Lini wrote:
Yes! I agree that the importance of weekly/minor tournaments and I initially thought they were valued by most managers, but it doesn't appear so.
Great example with Nerchio :B In your article you say that weekly tournaments are pretty much dead in NA while they're always alive in Europe. But the thoughts are only from NA managers. Maybe it's the reason. If you ask to RoxKis, Acer, Millenium, Western Wolves or Empire managers, maybe you'll have a different answer.
I had received a lot of opinions from many teams, most are NA, some are international and more. The problem was that not everyone was willing to let me quote them on paper.
I did not ask Acer, Millenium or Western Wolves however. Nor FXO.Eu, so perhaps something to look into.
The general consensus I got was that marketing and large-scale achievements mattered more than who can beat who.
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What about local lans that range from 50-500 dollars? They seem to have gone the value of weekly tournaments in most cases as well =/
then again this is why I was so sad with the no MLG open bracket. Everything small just doesnt account for much.
Good read though. If only there was a way to easily work towards marketing, without singing/dancing and wearing a clown suit on stream.
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On January 31 2013 11:00 KiF1rE wrote:
What about local lans that range from 50-500 dollars? They seem to have gone the value of weekly tournaments in most cases as well =/
then again this is why I was so sad with the no MLG open bracket. Everything small just doesnt account for much.
Good read though. If only there was a way to easily work towards marketing, without singing/dancing and wearing a clown suit on stream.
HOTS IPL6 open bracket! Be there, I will!
Yeah, I feel sometimes these local tournaments dont have a large enough turnout to justify the 500$ prize, I'm not sure.
Something to check on :B
I will be trying to write my next piece for next week, will take even more talking and conversations @_@
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On January 31 2013 11:02 Torte de Lini wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2013 11:00 KiF1rE wrote:
What about local lans that range from 50-500 dollars? They seem to have gone the value of weekly tournaments in most cases as well =/
then again this is why I was so sad with the no MLG open bracket. Everything small just doesnt account for much.
Good read though. If only there was a way to easily work towards marketing, without singing/dancing and wearing a clown suit on stream. HOTS IPL6 open bracket! Be there, I will! Yeah, I feel sometimes these local tournaments dont have a large enough turnout to justify the 500$ prize, I'm not sure. Something to check on :B I will be trying to write my next piece for next week, will take even more talking and conversations @_@
well the thing with local tournaments at a college lan or whatever, its very easy to get to that, add in a sponsor, have 30+ some people competing with an entry fee... Its not really about justifying the prize money, The issue I have is when those draw several GM's and high masters and the amount of recognition for winning it is less than, an online daily cup... Edit, Actually shouldnt even say less than a daily cup, its practically 0...
Trying to figure out whats going on truly with IPL6 before I commit though, Why I always wait till everything is announced and confirmed, Kind of feel bad for the people that already booked their MLG Dallas stuff when they got the dates lol...
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On February 01 2013 02:05 KiF1rE wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2013 11:02 Torte de Lini wrote:On January 31 2013 11:00 KiF1rE wrote:
What about local lans that range from 50-500 dollars? They seem to have gone the value of weekly tournaments in most cases as well =/
then again this is why I was so sad with the no MLG open bracket. Everything small just doesnt account for much.
Good read though. If only there was a way to easily work towards marketing, without singing/dancing and wearing a clown suit on stream. HOTS IPL6 open bracket! Be there, I will! Yeah, I feel sometimes these local tournaments dont have a large enough turnout to justify the 500$ prize, I'm not sure. Something to check on :B I will be trying to write my next piece for next week, will take even more talking and conversations @_@ well the thing with local tournaments at a college lan or whatever, its very easy to get to that, add in a sponsor, have 30+ some people competing with an entry fee... Its not really about justifying the prize money, The issue I have is when those draw several GM's and high masters and the amount of recognition for winning it is less than, an online daily cup... Edit, Actually shouldnt even say less than a daily cup, its practically 0... Trying to figure out whats going on truly with IPL6 before I commit though, Why I always wait till everything is announced and confirmed, Kind of feel bad for the people that already booked their MLG Dallas stuff when they got the dates lol...
It really depends where if it's a college LAN. I helped with a few college LANs and sometimes they'd make it only a day long. Not everyone can justify lugging their entire computer there for a day, if multiple days; find a place to stay.
I'm going to IPL6, HOTS open bracket + WOL is yum!
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I'll preface my response by saying I've done a boat load of casting in these weekly tournaments. You can see my name on liquipedia for everything I've done I won't mention it now  Nerski. I can for one say the experiences and ability to develop my craft doing these has been absolutely invaluable. Having switched over to the entertainment side of SC2 in 2010 coming from being a pro player in Online Racing previously, I loved SC1 but while I'm quite the talker, I had little experience casting a SC match. Those weekly tournaments allowed me to try a lot of different things and I believe were largely the reason I've had the opportunity to work with organizations like MLG and CSL at lans. Now I've personally been on hiatus since mid 2012 but that's largely do to moving and a lack of stream worthy internet on my part.
With that said I think with the way the system is currently it'd be a huge dis services for players and personalities alike to have these weekly tournaments go by the way side. There really is no to very minimal developmental potential currently out of the major leagues in the scene. Really to get your foot in the door with these leagues you have to build up and market yourself to gain your own following. None of the majors are currently really focused on developing talent. Sure both MLG and IPL have had 'community caster' programs, but they don't really develop you or give you input so much as just give a select few people a platform to be seen.
The above in itself is useful, but only if everyone has a place to first dip their toe into the pool. Test the waters and find out if this is even for you in the first place. Then once you do that decide if your going to dive head first into the pool. Still once you've dove head first into the pool you need a place to hone your craft. These weekly tournaments right now are the only place a large majority of entertainers and lesser known players can have a consistent gig that won't cost them a lot in the way of cash up front. Allowing them to see what works and doesn't work with the fans, and build up a following so they have something to show for their work when they try to land gigs with the major players who can actually pay them.
You take that away and the barrier to entry becomes substantially more expensive, and difficult. Whether that is good or bad would remain to be seen, but I'd be of the opinion that it would be bad for the scene overall.
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On January 31 2013 11:02 Torte de Lini wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2013 11:00 KiF1rE wrote:
What about local lans that range from 50-500 dollars? They seem to have gone the value of weekly tournaments in most cases as well =/
then again this is why I was so sad with the no MLG open bracket. Everything small just doesnt account for much.
Good read though. If only there was a way to easily work towards marketing, without singing/dancing and wearing a clown suit on stream. HOTS IPL6 open bracket! Be there, I will! Yeah, I feel sometimes these local tournaments dont have a large enough turnout to justify the 500$ prize, I'm not sure. Something to check on :B I will be trying to write my next piece for next week, will take even more talking and conversations @_@
I hope they have a lot of slots as I plan on going there to for that hots open bracket :D
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Wanted to add that the write ups have been outstanding torte keep up the good work
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Great article Torte! I hope for a new influx of weekly cups with HOTS! It really helps out alot for the NA/EU scene
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Thank you for all the feeback mates ^^
On February 01 2013 04:07 Nerski wrote:I'll preface my response by saying I've done a boat load of casting in these weekly tournaments. You can see my name on liquipedia for everything I've done I won't mention it now Nerski. I can for one say the experiences and ability to develop my craft doing these has been absolutely invaluable. Having switched over to the entertainment side of SC2 in 2010 coming from being a pro player in Online Racing previously, I loved SC1 but while I'm quite the talker, I had little experience casting a SC match. Those weekly tournaments allowed me to try a lot of different things and I believe were largely the reason I've had the opportunity to work with organizations like MLG and CSL at lans. Now I've personally been on hiatus since mid 2012 but that's largely do to moving and a lack of stream worthy internet on my part. With that said I think with the way the system is currently it'd be a huge dis services for players and personalities alike to have these weekly tournaments go by the way side. There really is no to very minimal developmental potential currently out of the major leagues in the scene. Really to get your foot in the door with these leagues you have to build up and market yourself to gain your own following. None of the majors are currently really focused on developing talent. Sure both MLG and IPL have had 'community caster' programs, but they don't really develop you or give you input so much as just give a select few people a platform to be seen. The above in itself is useful, but only if everyone has a place to first dip their toe into the pool. Test the waters and find out if this is even for you in the first place. Then once you do that decide if your going to dive head first into the pool. Still once you've dove head first into the pool you need a place to hone your craft. These weekly tournaments right now are the only place a large majority of entertainers and lesser known players can have a consistent gig that won't cost them a lot in the way of cash up front. Allowing them to see what works and doesn't work with the fans, and build up a following so they have something to show for their work when they try to land gigs with the major players who can actually pay them. You take that away and the barrier to entry becomes substantially more expensive, and difficult. Whether that is good or bad would remain to be seen, but I'd be of the opinion that it would be bad for the scene overall.
You're 100% right, with less minor tournaments, it also means less building blocks for upcoming players and people looking to get exposure. I mean, remember TeamSpeak TL tournaments? I wonder where those went.
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On February 01 2013 04:40 ROOTheognis wrote:Great article Torte! I hope for a new influx of weekly cups with HOTS! It really helps out alot for the NA/EU scene
I'm hoping HotS brings back some of that "early WoL interest" and tournaments!
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On February 01 2013 03:08 Torte de Lini wrote:
It really depends where if it's a college LAN. I helped with a few college LANs and sometimes they'd make it only a day long. Not everyone can justify lugging their entire computer there for a day, if multiple days; find a place to stay.
I'm going to IPL6, HOTS open bracket + WOL is yum!
Maybe one of the good replacements could be to have more open brackets or online qualifiers for the larger events (with community casters). Sure, it doesn't have the same cash incentive that playing in a $50-100 weekly/daily might, but there could be even bigger exposure and the chance to continue in the main tournaments (also increasing the exposure / marketing that so many of the managers are keen on).
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On February 02 2013 07:39 y0su wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2013 03:08 Torte de Lini wrote:
It really depends where if it's a college LAN. I helped with a few college LANs and sometimes they'd make it only a day long. Not everyone can justify lugging their entire computer there for a day, if multiple days; find a place to stay.
I'm going to IPL6, HOTS open bracket + WOL is yum! Maybe one of the good replacements could be to have more open brackets or online qualifiers for the larger events (with community casters). Sure, it doesn't have the same cash incentive that playing in a $50-100 weekly/daily might, but there could be even bigger exposure and the chance to continue in the main tournaments (also increasing the exposure / marketing that so many of the managers are keen on).
Open online qualifiers have definitely been on the rise with IPL & IEM [especially] consistent in that regard.
Most qualifiers are then overshadowed by the following main event, so their result is not necessarily similar to that of weekly cups because weeklies are consistent and can provide recurring names further chances to shine in terms of future weekly cups.
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Really enlightening article. Firstly for NA players the two main reasons to play online cups is to pad their pathetic incomes. Outside Idra/Huk no NA player is making more than 5k a year in Salary, and having a salary at all is exception and not the rule.
Secondly, if NA players seem unappreciative of what online cups they had its because due to time zone/server delay, Koreans much prefer NA tournies over EU ones. This means any given EU player has a much higher chance of actually winning which in turn generates more interest.
Thirdly, ask any player the absolute worst person in terms of skill in the game, and time and time again the team manager will always come up. Lower level team managers have no idea at all what they are doing because they've had the least experience, even worse they actually think they can gauge skill and wonder why their 10 hour a day practice ladder hero cant finally take out that going to college cant bother to practice much Sc2 has been. Generally speaking the higher up in teams you go, the more so Managers give players in gauging skill, its then a multi-factored approach between what can be afforded, who the players think is good, and if it can generate a decent ROI.
Lastly, what online tournmanents show is who is actually really good, but only in their best environment. When going to a Lan tournament you simply will not be in your best environment and alot more can go wrong, for some players it affects them much more than others. Idra for example couldnt win a cup to save his life, and loses alot on ladder, but in Lan he a much stronger opponent. What i personally feel is the most important aspect of online cups is simply rewarding you for being good. Streaming for money is rewarding you for being known and entertaining people, Lan tournament placings reward you with possible salary or slight increase in salary, but very few NA players ever get far enough in a Lan tourny to get much prize money from them. So whats left is Coaching, which again the more famous you are the more students you get and the more you can charge and Online tournies. Personally i think its a real shame how devalued these cups seem to alot of people and just want to end this with both Stephano and Scarlett got their start in online tournies and were would we be without them
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Thirdly, ask any player the absolute worst person in terms of skill in the game, and time and time again the team manager will always come up.
I don't get this? Team managers are part of the playing roster?
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On February 03 2013 07:41 Torte de Lini wrote:Show nested quote +Thirdly, ask any player the absolute worst person in terms of skill in the game, and time and time again the team manager will always come up. I don't get this? Team managers are part of the playing roster?
what I think he means is that, Team managers dont play much and are essentially the worst skill wise in a team and have the most power. And they are the ones gauging the skill of new potential new players.
I know when I went talking to alot of teams the team manager was often gold or under and asking me questions about the game. To try and gauge where I stand, and it always goes in an awkward direction. Though when it comes to teams in my situation it feels like nothing exists in this community for me. Im too pro to join a casual team and im not pro enough to join a pro team, and no competitive communities or academies seem to be open to join that are willing to take a player like me. But that goes full circle with smaller cups, im sitting around 4.5k in earnings from sc2, 0 recognition from those. Majority of those cups or lans dont even show up any where in places like SC2earnings or even profiles like tlpd, Sure you can link to stuff like goody's profile and see a long list, While my list is probably just as long yet its awkward, the stuff I get through lol. While technically I have all that stuff in my resume, its not in a visible place that can easily be researched or searched easily for some reason.
Though something ive been thinking about lately is competitive gaming vs competitive marketing. Competitive gaming Im going to use as pure competition results etc, and competitive marketing is the fanbase, stream viewers etc. And in esports as a whole tournaments no matter the size has always taken the front row seat until this boom with sc2. go back 10 years win a smaller cup or do well, you get recognition and can practice with world champion class players easily, but back then money wasnt everything. Now in SC2 its purely about a marketing engine. Get a good train rolling in hype or marketing and the player is instantly offered things or able to obtain financial support from other new technologies such as streaming. Meanwhile the flipside competitive player gets nothing. And I feel like not only do we need to figure out a way to bring back the base of minor tournaments, But to also bring back the marketing value to them as that has become the overriding source of power in esports lately. Everything used to be about money won back in the day. The old school esports scene used to be like "I did this I won this amount, teams would speak to you." Now SC2 started with that somewhat, It feels like its completely lost that and traded everything for marketing ROI regardless of skill, potential or anything else. Need to bring the ROI value back to a balance, and thats the issue I have not even been able to give a solution for. But thats why the foreign community is stagnating and the korean community is collapsing in places. As the korean community is the complete opposite, They seem to value skill, practice, dedication and they take anyone that can do that on their team as potential, but then they have 0 ROI and eventually the team falls apart but they produce the strongest players, while the foreign scene produces the strongest entertainers. Just needs to find a balance in the community as a whole and the issues on every side, amateur, pro, minor tournaments, major tournaments, will be fixed.
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So I am going to add some sense to what my quote means. Its something that is preached in finance all the time.
Basically when you look at a player you have to look deeper than "omg he won this tournament". Many tournament winners, semi finalists etc are all peaked. We have seen players like bit by bit, hongun etc, all fall from grace because their abilities were not sustainable long term.
A tournament that is quite often filled with mid level at best players, is not a good indicator of future results for that person.
So instead of worrying about how many weeklies some guy has won, you look at where they have placed in majors, their play style, things they can work on to improve (if any) and then other things such as marketability etc etc.
The question asked to me was "Do weekly tournament wins mean anything on a players resume" or something along those lines. The answer is no, because of the above reasons. Win GSL, and then there is something to look at in depth.
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On February 03 2013 09:36 FXOBoSs wrote:
So I am going to add some sense to what my quote means. Its something that is preached in finance all the time.
Basically when you look at a player you have to look deeper than "omg he won this tournament". Many tournament winners, semi finalists etc are all peaked. We have seen players like bit by bit, hongun etc, all fall from grace because their abilities were not sustainable long term.
A tournament that is quite often filled with mid level at best players, is not a good indicator of future results for that person.
So instead of worrying about how many weeklies some guy has won, you look at where they have placed in majors, their play style, things they can work on to improve (if any) and then other things such as marketability etc etc.
The question asked to me was "Do weekly tournament wins mean anything on a players resume" or something along those lines. The answer is no, because of the above reasons. Win GSL, and then there is something to look at in depth.
While I don't think anyone would disagree with what Boss said being 100% accurate. I think that the role weekly tournaments serve is not to get a player picked up by a guy like Boss. Instead it allows them to develop those things that a boss would look at and prepare themselves to make a splash in a major.
The funding they can gain from fans they pick up by winning small tournaments, teams that may give them some level of support, is invaluable to a players continued development if they are not born with a silver spoon in their mouth. Not to mention the practical tournament style experience they gain to help them prepare for tournament play on a larger scale.
Weekly tournaments may never get someone signed to a major team, but without them you would limit players ability to develop significantly. While Boss didn't comment on that I'd find it hard to believe he'd disagree that a world without weekly tournaments would be an easy world for new players to develop in.
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I should change the title to Minor Tournaments - Stepping Stones.
But the title served more to state my original view of what weekly tournaments did for a player and I guess wasn't realistic towards what managers look for :B
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On February 08 2013 05:15 Torte de Lini wrote:
I should change the title to Minor Tournaments - Stepping Stones.
But the title served more to state my original view of what weekly tournaments did for a player and I guess wasn't realistic towards what managers look for :B
its an awkward step though to get to what managers look for. Ranging from the different tiers of teams and the type of players they want. Minor tournaments play a strange roll in developing players careers but not launching them to major or mid tier or even lower tier teams which is accomplished through something entirely different.
Team managers at the top tier teams(salary,teamhouse,etc), look for major championships / popularity to also go with that. So even if there is a down period or an off day from a player they can still be worth something to the team.
mid tier teams (sponsors nothing fancy, no salary/or very little), seem to care more about popularity/stream viewership taking players in the middle of the road in developing, Not a major tournament winner nor expected to be one, but does stuff to get noticed.
low tier teams (nothing major at all) these teams care more about a group of friends that wish to be competitive. Meaning minor tournaments are pointless here.
Atleast this is how I view the categories in teams. The issue I have is minor tournaments are worth nothing seemingly to the community as well. Even performing that upset against a korean or winning the tournament doesnt seem to be worth much in growing a fanbase or anything else, besides tournament experience and the occasional money. Combine this with the issue of teams and growing a player, There isnt much of those early stepping stones. Competitive gaming is more like a ladder atm, where the part of the rungs near the bottom are entirely missing. Smaller teams that will take players that win alot of smaller tournaments and stuff do not exist, even competitive communities there seems to be practically no competitive communities or groups in SC2 and there is a very limited academy market that has very few spots.
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What the scene really needs when it comes to equality for aspiring pro gamers is something that firstly takes skill into account. In BW, it was pretty simple: if you wanted to become a pro gamer, then you needed to become good enough to win a courage tournament to get a pro gamer license. Once you got a pro license, you were eligible to be drafted. You didn't see people that were merely "marketable," that were taking up spots. The scene did alright, somehow.
There's way too much vagueness and arbitrary goal posts atm. Sooner or later, people will start to bash you and your team if you're not getting results. If someone is good and has proven that through getting a license, then you can turn them into something marketable. How much of a "personality" does Fantasy seem to have? Yet, how many fans does he have? A lot. If introverted people were getting the shaft as much as they are now, then he would probably have been lucky to even get on a team if the scene was run by foreigners. Fantasy lost to Draco. Not everyone starts out unbeatable.
I highly doubt there are enough people "in the know" to have any idea of who will be better than who in the future. What was their background in BW or WC 3? How many of the top players have they played? Not having a tournament like the courage tournament is a recipe for turning the scene into a marketing circus, where you can never be sure the player is "legit."
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On February 08 2013 09:29 playa wrote:
What the scene really needs when it comes to equality for aspiring pro gamers is something that firstly takes skill into account. In BW, it was pretty simple: if you wanted to become a pro gamer, then you needed to become good enough to win a courage tournament to get a pro gamer license. Once you got a pro license, you were eligible to be drafted. You didn't see people that were merely "marketable," that were taking up spots. The scene did alright, somehow.
There's way too much vagueness and arbitrary goal posts atm. Sooner or later, people will start to bash you and your team if you're not getting results. If someone is good and has proven that through getting a license, then you can turn them into something marketable. How much of a "personality" does Fantasy seem to have? Yet, how many fans does he have? A lot. If introverted people were getting the shaft as much as they are now, then he would probably have been lucky to even get on a team if the scene was run by foreigners. Fantasy lost to Draco. Not everyone starts out unbeatable.
I highly doubt there are enough people "in the know" to have any idea of who will be better than who in the future. What was their background in BW or WC 3? How many of the top players have they played? Not having a tournament like the courage tournament is a recipe for turning the scene into a marketing circus, where you can never be sure the player is "legit."
The threshold idea like in BW and the courage cup is always interesting. I don't doubt spectators would love this, but would tournament organizers and teams like this?
You're cutting a lot of people's legs by enforcing such an idea. Though I like the idea a lot :B
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Weekly cups should be the bread and butter of the grassroots scene and their disappearance is regrettable for the whole community.
Managers who say they don't care about it are missing something important. Winning weekly tournaments gets practice in an environment similar to a LAN (brackets vs series of opponents), many of which will be top class players. Competing regularly in these sort of tournaments can only be helpful to a player. The amount of "unheard" of "no names" who suddenly burst onto the scene at one LAN who were actually very well known to the followers of this grassroots scene is huge. Many were surprised at their results, expressing disbelief at this no name beating Koreans, perhaps some balance whine followed, but those who watched them win 20 playhem dailies and zotac cups knew of their skill and that they had beaten Koreans many times before.
Next MLG when some "faceless" Euro player the LR thread hasn't heard of goes deep, look at their liquipedia and see their online cup performances. Its likely the list won't be short.
Its good for players and its good for hardcore fans who want to see up and comers regularly compete.
Long live the dailies, weeklies, monthlies.
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On February 09 2013 04:36 _SpiRaL_ wrote:
Next MLG when some "faceless" Euro player the LR thread hasn't heard of goes deep, look at their liquipedia and see their online cup performances. Its likely the list won't be short.
MLG never has "faceless" Euro players because they prefer getting popular players to their events.
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On February 09 2013 05:03 StarVe wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2013 04:36 _SpiRaL_ wrote:
Next MLG when some "faceless" Euro player the LR thread hasn't heard of goes deep, look at their liquipedia and see their online cup performances. Its likely the list won't be short. MLG never has "faceless" Euro players because they prefer getting popular players to their events.
*cough*Open qualifiers+open bracket*cough*
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On February 09 2013 03:59 Torte de Lini wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2013 09:29 playa wrote:
What the scene really needs when it comes to equality for aspiring pro gamers is something that firstly takes skill into account. In BW, it was pretty simple: if you wanted to become a pro gamer, then you needed to become good enough to win a courage tournament to get a pro gamer license. Once you got a pro license, you were eligible to be drafted. You didn't see people that were merely "marketable," that were taking up spots. The scene did alright, somehow.
There's way too much vagueness and arbitrary goal posts atm. Sooner or later, people will start to bash you and your team if you're not getting results. If someone is good and has proven that through getting a license, then you can turn them into something marketable. How much of a "personality" does Fantasy seem to have? Yet, how many fans does he have? A lot. If introverted people were getting the shaft as much as they are now, then he would probably have been lucky to even get on a team if the scene was run by foreigners. Fantasy lost to Draco. Not everyone starts out unbeatable.
I highly doubt there are enough people "in the know" to have any idea of who will be better than who in the future. What was their background in BW or WC 3? How many of the top players have they played? Not having a tournament like the courage tournament is a recipe for turning the scene into a marketing circus, where you can never be sure the player is "legit."
The threshold idea like in BW and the courage cup is always interesting. I don't doubt spectators would love this, but would tournament organizers and teams like this? You're cutting a lot of people's legs by enforcing such an idea. Though I like the idea a lot :B
If I could run a tournament, I would. There's two ways of looking at it; one, you have an exact replica of how BW worked, where you had to have a pro license to be a pro. I think each team was able to give 1 or 2 pro licenses per year to prospects that they liked, if they hadn't managed to win courage yet. For this to happen, there probably has to be some unification between all of the parties.
So, you say, hey, that's either unlikely to happen or at least it will take some time. So, how else can you look at holding a tournament like this. What happens in most tournaments that amateurs play in? If anyone cares about the tournament in the first place, a good pro was probably in the tournament and he knocked you out. It's as if you have to be a real good pro before you can even become a pro.
Imagine how hard it would be to gain any light in BW if amateurs were getting knocked out by players like Flash? If anyone were actually able to take a series against a good pro, then they should have been a pro a long time before, anyways.
There needs to be a tournament, held monthly, or w/e, that is strictly for the best non Koreans who aren't on a pro team. Not just a tournament, but something that is actually focusing in on the people that are doing well in these tournaments, be it interviews or whatever.
If the best non pros are playing in the same tournament and a manager of a team that is looking to recruit people, he wouldn't be doing his job if he weren't strongly taking into account what's happening in said tournament(s). Say you won a tournament or finished higher than another applicant that got the roster spot. Similar age, play style, etc etc. Well, at least that should probably take away some of the mystery: they're saying you have to work on being more "whoreable."
A tournament like this would help everyone in the scene. I heard some people from complexity say they don't really take into account past esports history. I played some BW. I look at Terran players and Toss players, and you would have to be so f'ing blind to not see how strong of a correlation there is. So you have blind people running teams who are simply begging for more help. You need something that spells it out for the blind. Call it the braille tournament.
At the end of the day, it comes down to recognition of players in the scene. If you're not gaining recognition and letting people with say get a better gauge of where you stand, what have you really gained? The point of becoming a pro is to get money for your efforts. A lot more focus has to be put on highlighting people that are prospective pros, IMO.
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On January 31 2013 06:01 StarVe wrote:
Ah, I just love weekly cups, without them I wouldn't have noticed players like fraer nearly as quickly and I've been following and pushing him ever since I did recognize his skill and sheer awesomeness.
Management guys and whatever may not care much for them anymore, but I do think they're a good indicator of who will be strong in the future.
Sortof did very well in Playhems early 2012 and I wasn't surprised when he started showing good results at WCS later that year. fraer won countless Playhems and ZOTAC Monthly Finals over Nerchio, Hyun and others and then he attended his first big offline event at DreamHack Summer, beat Dimaga, Puma, MVPVampire, SaSe and others and got to top four and he has been a top EU pro ever since.
It doesn't work that way for everyone but you can still get some knowledge and value out of weekly cups in my opinion.
A bit sad that teams don't try to go for up&comers who perform in weekly cups first and only jump on the bandwagon when they qualify for big events, we need more teams that don't try to be EG and build up their own talent.
At least they're great money-wise for teamless players or players without a high salary.
Considering I used to do what these guys do, I couldn't help but agree. I don't think these guys want to look let alone expand their rosters unless there's a big fish (I should I say what they perceive to be a big fish) out there.
Let me just say this right now: everyone is marketable. You just have to know how to do it when it comes to coaching them. If you think otherwise then you aren't really doing your job when it comes to appealing to your audience. Some people sell themselves too short and in some cases they need to learn how to talk even if it's just a little bit. In summary, skill would always be my first criteria and marketability would be a lot lower. Why? Because you can teach a player to walk the walk and talk the talk.
On February 09 2013 05:16 playa wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2013 03:59 Torte de Lini wrote:On February 08 2013 09:29 playa wrote:
What the scene really needs when it comes to equality for aspiring pro gamers is something that firstly takes skill into account. In BW, it was pretty simple: if you wanted to become a pro gamer, then you needed to become good enough to win a courage tournament to get a pro gamer license. Once you got a pro license, you were eligible to be drafted. You didn't see people that were merely "marketable," that were taking up spots. The scene did alright, somehow.
There's way too much vagueness and arbitrary goal posts atm. Sooner or later, people will start to bash you and your team if you're not getting results. If someone is good and has proven that through getting a license, then you can turn them into something marketable. How much of a "personality" does Fantasy seem to have? Yet, how many fans does he have? A lot. If introverted people were getting the shaft as much as they are now, then he would probably have been lucky to even get on a team if the scene was run by foreigners. Fantasy lost to Draco. Not everyone starts out unbeatable.
I highly doubt there are enough people "in the know" to have any idea of who will be better than who in the future. What was their background in BW or WC 3? How many of the top players have they played? Not having a tournament like the courage tournament is a recipe for turning the scene into a marketing circus, where you can never be sure the player is "legit."
The threshold idea like in BW and the courage cup is always interesting. I don't doubt spectators would love this, but would tournament organizers and teams like this? You're cutting a lot of people's legs by enforcing such an idea. Though I like the idea a lot :B If I could run a tournament, I would. There's two ways of looking at it; one, you have an exact replica of how BW worked, where you had to have a pro license to be a pro. I think each team was able to give 1 or 2 pro licenses per year to prospects that they liked, if they hadn't managed to win courage yet. For this to happen, there probably has to be some unification between all of the parties. So, you say, hey, that's either unlikely to happen or at least it will take some time. So, how else can you look at holding a tournament like this. What happens in most tournaments that amateurs play in? If anyone cares about the tournament in the first place, a good pro was probably in the tournament and he knocked you out. It's as if you have to be a real good pro before you can even become a pro. Imagine how hard it would be to gain any light in BW if amateurs were getting knocked out by players like Flash? If anyone were actually able to take a series against a good pro, then they should have been a pro a long time before, anyways. There needs to be a tournament, held monthly, or w/e, that is strictly for the best non Koreans who aren't on a pro team. Not just a tournament, but something that is actually focusing in on the people that are doing well in these tournaments, be it interviews or whatever. If the best non pros are playing in the same tournament and a manager of a team that is looking to recruit people, he wouldn't be doing his job if he weren't strongly taking into account what's happening in said tournament(s). Say you won a tournament or finished higher than another applicant that got the roster spot. Similar age, play style, etc etc. Well, at least that should probably take away some of the mystery: they're saying you have to work on being more "whoreable." A tournament like this would help everyone in the scene. I heard some people from complexity say they don't really take into account past esports history. I played some BW. I look at Terran players and Toss players, and you would have to be so f'ing blind to not see how strong of a correlation there is. So you have blind people running teams who are simply begging for more help. You need something that spells it out for the blind. Call it the braille tournament. At the end of the day, it comes down to recognition of players in the scene. If you're not gaining recognition and letting people with say get a better gauge of where you stand, what have you really gained? The point of becoming a pro is to get money for your efforts. A lot more focus has to be put on highlighting people that are prospective pros, IMO.
It's a little sad that we don't have a real system for pro gamer's anymore. Your little sister could even call themselves a pro gamer now. This was just one of many things I put in my manifesto when it came to unification. Not my problem though, if some organization thinks a certain player is worth money to them by all means put them on payroll. It's not my money!
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/kwkQa.png)
