compLexity Gaming founder Jason Lake told ESFI in an interview on Saturday that the team’s gaming house in Houston, Texas has closed its doors as of last week.
Lake said one of the chief reasons for its closure was that media content that was planned to be produced out of the house was no longer possible. The person responsible for the media production side of the house needed to attend to other commitments.
“One of our top goals for the house was to turn it into a landing pad for top teams from around the world,” Lake said. “Rather than fly back to Korea when you have another event in ten days, you could just come [to the house] and make it a training facility.”
“The experiment wasn’t bad by any means. We got a lot of player growth and development. But at the end of the day, when we looked at a new year…renewing the lease..we just said we could spend our money elsewhere more wisely. If we could get a few top tier players, that would make more sense.”
Launched in mid-July 2012, the five-bedroom estate housed Kevin “qxc” Riley, Michael “goswser” Dobler, Gage “Sasquatch” Dubose, Joshua “TriMaster” Niven and player manager Scott Ford. Korean Kim “GanZi” Dong Joo also had a short stint at the house before leaving the team after the two parties failed to agree to new contract terms. Other players, including members of the Heroes of Newerth team, were eventually moved in as well.
Players were on a training schedule during their stay there, and several players made gains in their skill. Most recently, Michael “goswser” Dobler, who began his relationship with compLexity by joining their academy and is now on Millenium, defeated Korean Terran Jung “Mvp” Jong Hyun in three straight maps in the Iron Squid round-of-16. He faces ESFI’s player of the year, StarTale’s Life, in the next round.
“I’m sure at some point, there will be a house #3,” Jason Lake guaranteed. “We still believe in the concept, we were just swinging for a home run on this one, and we got a double.”
The complete video interview with Jason Lake will be released on Saturday.
On January 13 2013 12:17 Fionn wrote: So Azubu is out on Polt, EG or TL is unlikely, and Complexity closed their house.
Incoming Polt.Polt.
I'm still on the thought that Polt's going to TL in a semi-limited capacity. Seems like a long shot, but it makes a lot of sense.
Too bad about the house. I think it's interesting that the person who may have most benefited from it is no longer on the team. I probably wouldn't have known of its existence if I wasn't a qxc stream viewer.
On January 13 2013 12:17 Fionn wrote: So Azubu is out on Polt, EG or TL is unlikely, and Complexity closed their house.
Incoming Polt.Polt.
FXO.NA.POLT? Still an option although its starting to look like Polt will have to forgo joining a team. CSL still an option though.
I'm sure he'll find a team. He's one of the top ten most successful players in Wings of Liberty, is probably the best Korean with English, has over 10,000 Twitter followers and is focused on foreign tournaments.
I guess this is the death knell of coL as a SC2 pro team
This also rules out Polt joining coL as so many people thought probably, so I expect either a personal sponsorship or just solo living. I had a feeling this would happen with all of coL's problems recently.
Well, ya, this announcement makes sense. Put that rent money to another purpose if you're not getting much money out of the house. Honestly I'd wondered if a lot of NA team owners weren't buying a house, then using the team to rent it to offset the mortgage. A much more reasonable solution from a financial standpoint. But apparently NA team owners were renting from random non-esports people. Less capital investment, but rent is expensive.
Edit: And this certainly isn't the deathknell of coL as a SC2 team. They've still got players, and look like they're pretty much going to be the same middle-of-the-road Complexity they've been for awhile. A good organization. People need to stop expecting every team to fold immediately. Heck, NSHoSeo has been around far longer than everyone expected them to be around... a stable team like Complexity will likely not disappear any time soon.
I'm surprised the announcement came out through ESFI, but I know this has been planned for a little bit now. Shame to see them closing up shop right as we open up ours.
The house was definitely funded by sponsor money, if I remember right it was some nutritional supplement company, and tbh it's kind of sad that the reason the sponsor pulled their money is because coL didn't have a media guy. Seems pretty likely the sponsor money was tied to media content/exposure. You would think the team would be able to come up with a media production solution...
Suprised factor.... 4/10. That house was so nice how were they affording it anyway? im not gonna lie for the longest time i had quantic and complexity players mixed so i don't think that helped them at all, none of the players have a identity besides QXC.
I think a gaming house can't really be viable if it's only a training house. EG and Millenium did the right choice by renting a house made for players AND staff (writers, TV, offices). The training part, in the case of Millenium, is secondary, although the conditions are good to practice (internet, hardware, etc.). It's mainly the staff offices.
Btw, [M]Polt :D (well, Millenium's manager said that M would send multiple times a part of the team at MLGs so why not...)
On January 13 2013 12:30 MisterFred wrote: Well, ya, this announcement makes sense. Put that rent money to another purpose if you're not getting much money out of the house. Honestly I'd wondered if a lot of NA team owners weren't buying a house, then using the team to rent it to offset the mortgage. A much more reasonable solution from a financial standpoint. But apparently NA team owners were renting from random non-esports people. Less capital investment, but rent is expensive.
Edit: And this certainly isn't the deathknell of coL as a SC2 team. They've still got players, and look like they're pretty much going to be the same middle-of-the-road Complexity they've been for awhile. A good organization. People need to stop expecting every team to fold immediately. Heck, NSHoSeo has been around far longer than everyone expected them to be around... a stable team like Complexity will likely not disappear any time soon.
Now that I think about it, calling it the death knell was exaggerated. Complexity certainly isn't dead, they just are restructuring and taking a smaller role than before. But if this continues, we might see coL fold their SC2 team because the funding isn't their, or interest is waning.
On January 13 2013 13:03 SHOOG wrote: Damn this stinks. Even though I can understand them wanting to put their money to better use. I like the idea of teams having houses though.
Well but if players improve much in ur house, which costs col quite some money and then they are moving to another team like gowser (no offence to him, he has his understandable reaons), then it is from the point of view of col logical that the money is better invested in hiring good players
As much as I've been something of a cynic with regard to recent developments in the scene (disbandment of SlayerS+TSL, with Prime/NSH possibly next), this news is less outright negative for the health of SC2 as an e-sport.
This has nothing to do with CoL disbanding lol. There is still money in the scene, the disbanded teams so far are those who don't have salaries or those that had such profound issues that they just couldn't stay afloat. Being really honest here, CoL is an enormous e-sports company, they won't be disbanding their sc2 team. Even if they did, the scene isn't dying. This just has to do with the house not fulfilling its intended purpose.
On January 13 2013 13:26 TheSwamp wrote: LOL I guess it's insanely difficult to find someone that wants to produce media...
This.
Talk about just going through the "excuse rolodex" to find something that might work.
I really don't think this is a bad thing - just the "bubble" has popped and now, after some contractions, the SC2 industry will rebuild with a more solid foundation that is actually sustainable. It happens in every industry at some point and it's happening here. Just depends if what is left is enough to keep the industry going.
Honestly pro gaming houses are not worth it if the players in them self aren't willing to put in the effort, Gaging from the majority of results from the Complexity players we can probably guess that they weren't putting in actual korean level of effort and thus the investment was no where near profitable for Complexity.
On January 13 2013 13:51 echO [W] wrote: I'm not sure about the housing prices in Houston, but is it me or are teams renting houses that are a bit bigger and flashier than they need to be?
I'm not saying teams should go Korean-style and cram 6 people in a room, but the coL house looked like a mansion.
Does it also have to be a house-house? What about renting a big apartment?
Exactly this. I feel like teams are more worried about what the public thinks when they see a 15 bedroom mansion for progaming than the cost and commitment associated with the house.
On January 13 2013 14:13 AstroPegnuin wrote: Honestly pro gaming houses are not worth it if the players in them self aren't willing to put in the effort, Gaging from the majority of results from the Complexity players we can probably guess that they weren't putting in actual korean level of effort and thus the investment was no where near profitable for Complexity.
On January 13 2013 14:13 AstroPegnuin wrote: Honestly pro gaming houses are not worth it if the players in them self aren't willing to put in the effort, Gaging from the majority of results from the Complexity players we can probably guess that they weren't putting in actual korean level of effort and thus the investment was no where near profitable for Complexity.
Uhm... the players were obviously getting better.
Yeah, but getting better still doesn't justify a mansion. Not yet at least.
On January 13 2013 13:51 echO [W] wrote: I'm not sure about the housing prices in Houston, but is it me or are teams renting houses that are a bit bigger and flashier than they need to be?
I'm not saying teams should go Korean-style and cram 6 people in a room, but the coL house looked like a mansion.
Does it also have to be a house-house? What about renting a big apartment?
Exactly this. I feel like teams are more worried about what the public thinks when they see a 15 bedroom mansion for progaming than the cost and commitment associated with the house.
But what you dont understand is that a big house in Texas is like the same price as a medium house in california
I mean its one of the reasons EG house is in Arizona, Cheap living
On January 13 2013 14:13 AstroPegnuin wrote: Honestly pro gaming houses are not worth it if the players in them self aren't willing to put in the effort, Gauging from the majority of results from the Complexity players we can probably guess that they weren't putting in actual Korean level of effort and thus the investment was no where near profitable for Complexity.
Don't blame the players on this lol. It's really short-sighted to do so. There are many contributing factors as to why these players and foreigners in general aren't code S tournament-winning caliber. You can't just blindly say they don't have the necessary drive or determination. It might or it might not be the case but you actually can't say without proof.
There's a lack of resources available to foreigners: no mid-level tournaments (these give exposure and a stepping stone to the higher-skilled international tournaments), the lack of a quality ladder like the KR server for practice, no coaches, USA being spread out as fuck unlike Korea, etc. The list goes on and on and you can't just point to them being "lazy" as the cause.
On January 13 2013 14:13 AstroPegnuin wrote: Honestly pro gaming houses are not worth it if the players in them self aren't willing to put in the effort, Gauging from the majority of results from the Complexity players we can probably guess that they weren't putting in actual Korean level of effort and thus the investment was no where near profitable for Complexity.
Don't blame the players on this lol. It's really short-sighted to do so. There are many contributing factors as to why these players and foreigners in general aren't code S tournament-winning caliber. You can't just blindly say they don't have the necessary drive or determination. It might or it might not be the case but you actually can't say without proof.
There's a lack of resources available to foreigners: no mid-level tournaments (these give exposure and a stepping stone to the higher-skilled international tournaments), the lack of a quality ladder like the KR server for practice, no coaches, USA being spread out as fuck unlike Korea, etc. The list goes on and on and you can't just point to them being "lazy" as the cause.
Don't just hate on the house because it was big. They could have easily just downgraded to a small suburban 1-story house if they wanted to. What would be your excuse to whine now if they did that?
The fact of the matter is, it's just not a profitable endeavor to have a team house AT ALL in the west. Doesn't matter if it's big or small, the return of investment for the most part isn't there quite yet.
I was not hating or whining. I was merely offering my opinion on the fact that leasing such a large property at this time in eSports may not have been the best thing to do even if they were just getting better.
Lets say they did rent a small one story house and they decided to close it down, that's fine its not profitable. You yourself just said it, its not profitable at all in the west to have a team house why would you lease/rent one that is of such size? Obviously I don't know the cost of such, maybe they had a great deal, but from my own speculation it seems as if they could have done things a bit differently.
As for an ROI, shouldn't a team house be viewed as a long term investment?
I'm obviously speaking as an outsider, but I feel like something like a team house should start on a smaller scale, and have a team grow into it and expand should they need to. Not every team is EG and has money to spend, and even EG decided to locate their facility in Phoenix, AZ which is if I'm not mistaken, a relatively low cost area to live.
Too much too early. Sucks that they can't manage it but I think it's obvious that team houses are way too expensive at the moment considering the money flow in the space.
On January 13 2013 14:13 AstroPegnuin wrote: Honestly pro gaming houses are not worth it if the players in them self aren't willing to put in the effort, Gauging from the majority of results from the Complexity players we can probably guess that they weren't putting in actual Korean level of effort and thus the investment was no where near profitable for Complexity.
Don't blame the players on this lol. It's really short-sighted to do so. There are many contributing factors as to why these players and foreigners in general aren't code S tournament-winning caliber. You can't just blindly say they don't have the necessary drive or determination. It might or it might not be the case but you actually can't say without proof.
There's a lack of resources available to foreigners: no mid-level tournaments (these give exposure and a stepping stone to the higher-skilled international tournaments), the lack of a quality ladder like the KR server for practice, no coaches, USA being spread out as fuck unlike Korea, etc. The list goes on and on and you can't just point to them being "lazy" as the cause.
Don't just hate on the house because it was big. They could have easily just downgraded to a small suburban 1-story house if they wanted to. What would be your excuse to whine now if they did that?
The fact of the matter is, it's just not a profitable endeavor to have a team house AT ALL in the west. Doesn't matter if it's big or small, the return of investment for the most part isn't there quite yet.
I was not hating or whining. I was merely offering my opinion on the fact that leasing such a large property at this time in eSports may not have been the best thing to do even if they were just getting better.
Lets say they did rent a small one story house and they decided to close it down, that's fine its not profitable. You yourself just said it, its not profitable at all in the west to have a team house why would you lease/rent one that is of such size? Obviously I don't know the cost of such, maybe they had a great deal, but from my own speculation it seems as if they could have done things a bit differently.
As for an ROI, shouldn't a team house be viewed as a long term investment?
I'm obviously speaking as an outsider, but I feel like something like a team house should start on a smaller scale, and have a team grow into it and expand should they need to. Not every team is EG and has money to spend, and even EG decided to locate their facility in Phoenix, AZ which is if I'm not mistaken, a relatively low cost area to live.
I deleted my post before u responded lol. I misread it. Anyways, my main point was more towards the other dude.
On January 13 2013 13:18 aust77 wrote: As much as I've been something of a cynic with regard to recent developments in the scene (disbandment of SlayerS+TSL, with Prime/NSH possibly next), this news is less outright negative for the health of SC2 as an e-sport.
Considering how SlayerS and TSL disbanded, neither of those had much to do with the health of SC2 as an e-sport, lol. SlayerS was an explosion of the world's largest dramabomb, and TSL was because their players all left every time they got good.
QXC got better, and Goswer's skill is leaps and bounds past where it was before. Too bad he left. I agree the house was a mammoth establishment. They had their own boat ramp and boat...I mean...
On January 13 2013 13:18 aust77 wrote: As much as I've been something of a cynic with regard to recent developments in the scene (disbandment of SlayerS+TSL, with Prime/NSH possibly next), this news is less outright negative for the health of SC2 as an e-sport.
Considering how SlayerS and TSL disbanded, neither of those had much to do with the health of SC2 as an e-sport, lol. SlayerS was an explosion of the world's largest dramabomb, and TSL was because their players all left every time they got good.
TSL had trouble even securing sponsors even with power-hitters like Shine, HyuN, Symbol, and Polt. Seems kind of like a problem to me >_< There doesn't seem to be enough sponsor backing in Korea but then again it might be due to the KeSPA-influx. I don't know TSL's situation before the KeSPA transition though but I don't think it was any better.
On January 13 2013 12:12 .kv wrote: Lake said one of the chief reasons for its closure was that media content that was planned to be produced out of the house was no longer possible. The person responsible for the media production side of the house needed to attend to other commitments.
[...]
“The experiment wasn’t bad by any means. We got a lot of player growth and development. But at the end of the day, when we looked at a new year…renewing the lease..we just said we could spend our money elsewhere more wisely. If we could get a few top tier players, that would make more sense.”
I don't know, somehow I get the feeling that money was the main reason why the house was closed, not staff. Closing a house, which is a huge financial undertaking, just because you could not spare one staff to look after it, one staff whose financial backing pales in comparison, just doesn't really make sense, imo.
Oh well, sucks for Trimaster and the others who lived in that house. I hope they find a suitable alternative.
Investing in a house for your players doesn't make much sense when your players are not that great in the first place. Getting better players for the same cash is far more sensible and likely to work out well.
On January 13 2013 13:18 aust77 wrote: As much as I've been something of a cynic with regard to recent developments in the scene (disbandment of SlayerS+TSL, with Prime/NSH possibly next), this news is less outright negative for the health of SC2 as an e-sport.
Considering how SlayerS and TSL disbanded, neither of those had much to do with the health of SC2 as an e-sport, lol. SlayerS was an explosion of the world's largest dramabomb, and TSL was because their players all left every time they got good.
TSL had trouble even securing sponsors even with power-hitters like Shine, HyuN, Symbol, and Polt. Seems kind of like a problem to me >_< There doesn't seem to be enough sponsor backing in Korea but then again it might be due to the KeSPA-influx. I don't know TSL's situation before the KeSPA transition though but I don't think it was any better.
Sson said the SC2 market is really bad in Korea atm on his stream like 2-3 days ago...sponsors in Korea seem to lean toward LoL teams more
On January 13 2013 13:18 aust77 wrote: As much as I've been something of a cynic with regard to recent developments in the scene (disbandment of SlayerS+TSL, with Prime/NSH possibly next), this news is less outright negative for the health of SC2 as an e-sport.
Considering how SlayerS and TSL disbanded, neither of those had much to do with the health of SC2 as an e-sport, lol. SlayerS was an explosion of the world's largest dramabomb, and TSL was because their players all left every time they got good.
TSL had trouble even securing sponsors even with power-hitters like Shine, HyuN, Symbol, and Polt. Seems kind of like a problem to me >_< There doesn't seem to be enough sponsor backing in Korea but then again it might be due to the KeSPA-influx. I don't know TSL's situation before the KeSPA transition though but I don't think it was any better.
That's mostly BECAUSE all TSL players left as soon as they got good.... SymboL got good but never showed any top finishes. HyuN is famous for being good, but aside from Fight Club, never showed top finishes. Shine was just known to be a solid player, but he wasn't famous. Polt was at his peak before he joined TSL. All of TSL's famous/huge players left as soon as they became good. Polt is the only acception as he came into TSL after he was already famous/huge.
TSL had the best sponsorship and the first salaries in SC2 history. Their problem arose because all of the TSL players backstabbed TSL due to greed and other selfish reasons.
If I were a sponsor I wouldn't want to sponsor a team that has a history of creating huge players that always leave to other teams, regardless of the high salary they make. (also why I wouldn't pick up Parting if I were a pro team manager)
What a shame. Complexity had the most impressive boat house in the entire world of eSports. I don't think they were able to leverage that to their benefit though. It might have all been so different if Stephano had actually joined them and achieved his success with them. Instead they signed Naniwa and he left after 2 months.
That sucks The media content probably didn't get enough views. I still believe it’s important to pick a simple, cheaper housing but in this case they saved a lot of money on travelling to events such as the Lone Star Clash 2 so I’m not sure it would help. On a similar note I’m still waiting for someone to make a proper training house work in Europe because the cost of living should be quite low. Maybe the GD Studio?
On January 13 2013 12:31 Shinespark wrote: SC2's death is coming a little faster every day...
Didn't you read? The reason they closed it down cause of lack of Marketing, they had planned to release media content which would support the financial side of the teamhouse, much like what EG and TeamLiquid does.
This house closing doesn't seem as depressing as these sorts of things usually are. The article puts a spin on it in such a way that it doesn't sound that bad. It was interesting to read.
On January 13 2013 12:31 Shinespark wrote: SC2's death is coming a little faster every day...
Didn't you read? The reason they closed it down cause of lack of Marketing, they had planned to release media content which would support the financial side of the teamhouse, much like what EG and TeamLiquid does.
If this was 2011 they probably wouldn't have closed it. At this point in time, there is no reason to invest in a progaming house for foreigners, as all you get are low stream numbers, low view counts and zero results.
I don't want to join the bandwagon regarding sc2's death, but Col's house highlights the situation of teams that aren't EG or TL, teams that do not have (seemingly) endless pockets.
Man foreign team houses are a joke. They get these big ass houses with swimming pools and all that unecessary shit and put like 5 players in them. Even the EG house sucks as a practice house. They have Idra, Demuslim, Machine and Incontrol in it and thats pretty much it. Same thing with the Millenium house, they have ForGG and who else?
In terms of developing talent for the foreign scene they are so far behind the Koreans that it isnt even funny and the Korean SC2 scene is pretty much dead.
On the other hand Koreans are fucking phenomenal at developing talent but they are terrible at marketing.
On January 13 2013 12:31 Shinespark wrote: SC2's death is coming a little faster every day...
On January 13 2013 13:02 AnomalySC2 wrote: SC2 is falling apart.
Cant hear that anymore. Its just like five 80+ year old man sitting in a pub telling everyone, that world will end soon.
Clarity Gaming just OPENS their team house and coL house is closing. Why is SC2 dying now? Its the same number of team houses if you try to count up to two! Really dont get it.
Slayers, TSL, Quantic disband? K, but to replace them, we got 8 (!) new KeSPA teams, plus Axiom and AZUBU with great rosters. If you try to count again, its 7 teams more then before...
SC2 truly dying...
Guys: Motorsport is not dying only because of Michael Schumacher leaving F1, Soccer not dying, because of Glasgow Rangers insolvent and SC2 not dying because of their are as many team houses then bevor in US and more teams as 2011...
On January 13 2013 13:26 TheSwamp wrote: LOL I guess it's insanely difficult to find someone that wants to produce media...
Not at all, but it's insanely difficult for a media producer to find a company willing to pay them what they're worth.
I never saw a recruitment post. $45,000 a year and room and board in that house and I would have been all on that, with constant media coming out of it so long as the right tools were provided. Course if they wanted someone with college education on media production with debt and shit to pay and weren't willing to give them at least the average salary, then I don't see how the dude could have worked full time as a media producer.
The problem is that everyone expects the players to be paid salaries and the guys helping to do it for love of the game. I hate to break it to teams, but being a pro-gamer doesn't require a degree. You don't go into debt learning to be a pro-gamer. Those who go to school to budget teams, create media, even cooking in some areas, etc. all need schooling, they need to be paid, and they need to be paid fairly. If I didn't have a college degree weighing me down I could live in fairfield county, where I live, one of the most expensive places in the country to live, for around $30,000 a year. If I'm a pro gamer with no debt or living expenses, $8000 a year is probably fair.
Of course, it's possible that the media dude was just a flake and had been getting paid fairly the whole time. Us artsy types tend to flake out a lot.
On January 13 2013 13:26 TheSwamp wrote: LOL I guess it's insanely difficult to find someone that wants to produce media...
Not at all, but it's insanely difficult for a media producer to find a company willing to pay them what they're worth.
I never saw a recruitment post. $45,000 a year and room and board in that house and I would have been all on that, with constant media coming out of it so long as the right tools were provided. Course if they wanted someone with college education on media production with debt and shit to pay and weren't willing to give them at least the average salary, then I don't see how the dude could have worked full time as a media producer.
The problem is that everyone expects the players to be paid salaries and the guys helping to do it for love of the game. I hate to break it to teams, but being a pro-gamer doesn't require a degree. You don't go into debt learning to be a pro-gamer. Those who go to school to budget teams, create media, even cooking in some areas, etc. all need schooling, they need to be paid, and they need to be paid fairly. If I didn't have a college degree weighing me down I could live in fairfield county, where I live, one of the most expensive places in the country to live, for around $30,000 a year. If I'm a pro gamer with no debt or living expenses, $8000 a year is probably fair.
Of course, it's possible that the media dude was just a flake and had been getting paid fairly the whole time. Us artsy types tend to flake out a lot.
Hate to break it to you but right now players are lucky if they have any salary at all. $8000 a year for a progamer? Join EG if you want to get paid that much, otherwise good luck.
Call me with EG shuts down their team house. Then I will think SC2 is dying. We don't have a lot of room in NA for a lot of major teams and everyone wants to be EG or TL.
On January 13 2013 13:18 aust77 wrote: As much as I've been something of a cynic with regard to recent developments in the scene (disbandment of SlayerS+TSL, with Prime/NSH possibly next), this news is less outright negative for the health of SC2 as an e-sport.
Considering how SlayerS and TSL disbanded, neither of those had much to do with the health of SC2 as an e-sport, lol. SlayerS was an explosion of the world's largest dramabomb, and TSL was because their players all left every time they got good.
TSL had trouble even securing sponsors even with power-hitters like Shine, HyuN, Symbol, and Polt. Seems kind of like a problem to me >_< There doesn't seem to be enough sponsor backing in Korea but then again it might be due to the KeSPA-influx. I don't know TSL's situation before the KeSPA transition though but I don't think it was any better.
That's mostly BECAUSE all TSL players left as soon as they got good.... SymboL got good but never showed any top finishes. HyuN is famous for being good, but aside from Fight Club, never showed top finishes. Shine was just known to be a solid player, but he wasn't famous. Polt was at his peak before he joined TSL. All of TSL's famous/huge players left as soon as they became good. Polt is the only acception as he came into TSL after he was already famous/huge.
TSL had the best sponsorship and the first salaries in SC2 history. Their problem arose because all of the TSL players backstabbed TSL due to greed and other selfish reasons.
If I were a sponsor I wouldn't want to sponsor a team that has a history of creating huge players that always leave to other teams, regardless of the high salary they make. (also why I wouldn't pick up Parting if I were a pro team manager)
What the... Symbol got 2nd place at Iron Squid 1, HomeStory Cup VI and MLG Spring Arena 2, plus 2 GSL Code S RO8 and a top 6 at IPL5. HyuN got 2nd place last GSL, which is pretty high finish.
TSL did a bad job at attracting sponsors. They had the entire 2012 to benefit the shape of Polt and Symbol (plus HyuN at the end of the year).
I think I called it when I said Disbanded TSL vs Dying coL.
Actually I think there was already a post about this before you made that comment.
On January 13 2013 17:23 ROOTheognis wrote:
On January 13 2013 17:17 dcemuser wrote:
On January 13 2013 13:18 aust77 wrote: As much as I've been something of a cynic with regard to recent developments in the scene (disbandment of SlayerS+TSL, with Prime/NSH possibly next), this news is less outright negative for the health of SC2 as an e-sport.
Considering how SlayerS and TSL disbanded, neither of those had much to do with the health of SC2 as an e-sport, lol. SlayerS was an explosion of the world's largest dramabomb, and TSL was because their players all left every time they got good.
TSL had trouble even securing sponsors even with power-hitters like Shine, HyuN, Symbol, and Polt. Seems kind of like a problem to me >_< There doesn't seem to be enough sponsor backing in Korea but then again it might be due to the KeSPA-influx. I don't know TSL's situation before the KeSPA transition though but I don't think it was any better.
That's mostly BECAUSE all TSL players left as soon as they got good.... SymboL got good but never showed any top finishes. HyuN is famous for being good, but aside from Fight Club, never showed top finishes. Shine was just known to be a solid player, but he wasn't famous. Polt was at his peak before he joined TSL. All of TSL's famous/huge players left as soon as they became good. Polt is the only acception as he came into TSL after he was already famous/huge.
TSL had the best sponsorship and the first salaries in SC2 history. Their problem arose because all of the TSL players backstabbed TSL due to greed and other selfish reasons.
If I were a sponsor I wouldn't want to sponsor a team that has a history of creating huge players that always leave to other teams, regardless of the high salary they make. (also why I wouldn't pick up Parting if I were a pro team manager)
What the... Symbol got 2nd place at Iron Squid 1, HomeStory Cup VI and MLG Spring Arena 2, plus 2 GSL Code S RO8 and a top 6 at IPL5. HyuN got 2nd place last GSL, which is pretty high finish.
TSL did a bad job at attracting sponsors. They had the entire 2012 to benefit the shape of Polt and Symbol (plus HyuN at the end of the year).
Yeah, I agree. They had a stacked lineup that SHOULD have been able to secure a few decent sponsors. Polt is a huge fan favorite and a top contender for most foreign tournaments he attends. Sure they don't have an MVP who wins 4 GSL's but who the fuck does other than IM? Lol. It's either ridiculously hard for these teams to pick up a stable sponsor nowadays or they are THAT bad at the business side of things.
On January 13 2013 13:26 TheSwamp wrote: LOL I guess it's insanely difficult to find someone that wants to produce media...
Not at all, but it's insanely difficult for a media producer to find a company willing to pay them what they're worth.
I never saw a recruitment post. $45,000 a year and room and board in that house and I would have been all on that, with constant media coming out of it so long as the right tools were provided. Course if they wanted someone with college education on media production with debt and shit to pay and weren't willing to give them at least the average salary, then I don't see how the dude could have worked full time as a media producer.
The problem is that everyone expects the players to be paid salaries and the guys helping to do it for love of the game. I hate to break it to teams, but being a pro-gamer doesn't require a degree. You don't go into debt learning to be a pro-gamer. Those who go to school to budget teams, create media, even cooking in some areas, etc. all need schooling, they need to be paid, and they need to be paid fairly. If I didn't have a college degree weighing me down I could live in fairfield county, where I live, one of the most expensive places in the country to live, for around $30,000 a year. If I'm a pro gamer with no debt or living expenses, $8000 a year is probably fair.
Of course, it's possible that the media dude was just a flake and had been getting paid fairly the whole time. Us artsy types tend to flake out a lot.
Hate to break it to you but right now players are lucky if they have any salary at all. $8000 a year for a progamer? Join EG if you want to get paid that much, otherwise good luck.
Who am i to contradict, but do we mix up "year" and "month" here?
I think I called it when I said Disbanded TSL vs Dying coL.
Actually I think there was already a post about this before you made that comment.
On January 13 2013 17:23 ROOTheognis wrote:
On January 13 2013 17:17 dcemuser wrote:
On January 13 2013 13:18 aust77 wrote: As much as I've been something of a cynic with regard to recent developments in the scene (disbandment of SlayerS+TSL, with Prime/NSH possibly next), this news is less outright negative for the health of SC2 as an e-sport.
Considering how SlayerS and TSL disbanded, neither of those had much to do with the health of SC2 as an e-sport, lol. SlayerS was an explosion of the world's largest dramabomb, and TSL was because their players all left every time they got good.
TSL had trouble even securing sponsors even with power-hitters like Shine, HyuN, Symbol, and Polt. Seems kind of like a problem to me >_< There doesn't seem to be enough sponsor backing in Korea but then again it might be due to the KeSPA-influx. I don't know TSL's situation before the KeSPA transition though but I don't think it was any better.
That's mostly BECAUSE all TSL players left as soon as they got good.... SymboL got good but never showed any top finishes. HyuN is famous for being good, but aside from Fight Club, never showed top finishes. Shine was just known to be a solid player, but he wasn't famous. Polt was at his peak before he joined TSL. All of TSL's famous/huge players left as soon as they became good. Polt is the only acception as he came into TSL after he was already famous/huge.
TSL had the best sponsorship and the first salaries in SC2 history. Their problem arose because all of the TSL players backstabbed TSL due to greed and other selfish reasons.
If I were a sponsor I wouldn't want to sponsor a team that has a history of creating huge players that always leave to other teams, regardless of the high salary they make. (also why I wouldn't pick up Parting if I were a pro team manager)
What the... Symbol got 2nd place at Iron Squid 1, HomeStory Cup VI and MLG Spring Arena 2, plus 2 GSL Code S RO8 and a top 6 at IPL5. HyuN got 2nd place last GSL, which is pretty high finish.
TSL did a bad job at attracting sponsors. They had the entire 2012 to benefit the shape of Polt and Symbol (plus HyuN at the end of the year).
Yeah, I agree. They had a stacked lineup that SHOULD have been able to secure a few decent sponsors. Polt is a huge fan favorite and a top contender for most foreign tournaments he attends. Sure they don't have an MVP who wins 4 GSL's but who the fuck does other than IM? Lol. It's either ridiculously hard for these teams to pick up a stable sponsor nowadays or they are THAT bad at the business side of things.
I really think especially TSL and maybe even Slayers would not have disbanded if they have had a reasonable English-speaking manager. This is probably a bigger problem than finding sponsors itself.
Oh and btw why is SC2 dying becaue a completely irrelevant gaming house in NA, that I have never even heard of before, is closing its doors?
On January 13 2013 12:31 Shinespark wrote: SC2's death is coming a little faster every day...
Didn't you read? The reason they closed it down cause of lack of Marketing, they had planned to release media content which would support the financial side of the teamhouse, much like what EG and TeamLiquid does.
If this was 2011 they probably wouldn't have closed it. At this point in time, there is no reason to invest in a progaming house for foreigners, as all you get are low stream numbers, low view counts and zero results.
I don't want to join the bandwagon regarding sc2's death, but Col's house highlights the situation of teams that aren't EG or TL, teams that do not have (seemingly) endless pockets.
There are plenty of good reasons as long as you know how to run a company, Just look at EG and TL, their players are nothing special among the top of of pro players. There are actually only two NA teams that understands how to run a business because that's what running a team is, a business. The other teams are terrible at marketing themselves, their products (in this case the players) and to highlight their sponsors.
The amount of top players that can make it is saturated at this point but not amount of teams. And the only reason why EG and TL still are running is not because they have money but because they are generating money. TotalBiscuits SC2 team won't die out anytime soon mainly because TB is generating money from his ability to promote and advertise with youtube.
And why the hell shouldn't the other teams go down? In some areas, like the IT and information industry, which we are in, the failure rate within the first 5 years is as high as 95%
The reason why these teams fails are not because of SC2, it's because they don't know shit about business and therefore they close down, this happens in every other single business niche, why would SC2 be any different?.
It's not a a amazingly huge project. You get a house, good players and then you somehow promote them and their sponsors, that's it! Now, I'm not saying its easy, what I'm pointing out is that it's very doable. And there are even people out there who sells "crap in a box" which essentially is bullshit and the only reason people are paying for it is because their marketing is so dammn good, that sometimes, even if you don't have anything of real value you can still make a profit because you know how to market something incredible well.
On January 13 2013 12:22 Duggibobo wrote: Sucks, but well, a rather stupid thing to rent a luxury mansion when there obviously isn't not enough money to live in mansions in this sport YET.
I think I called it when I said Disbanded TSL vs Dying coL.
Actually I think there was already a post about this before you made that comment.
On January 13 2013 17:23 ROOTheognis wrote:
On January 13 2013 17:17 dcemuser wrote:
On January 13 2013 13:18 aust77 wrote: As much as I've been something of a cynic with regard to recent developments in the scene (disbandment of SlayerS+TSL, with Prime/NSH possibly next), this news is less outright negative for the health of SC2 as an e-sport.
Considering how SlayerS and TSL disbanded, neither of those had much to do with the health of SC2 as an e-sport, lol. SlayerS was an explosion of the world's largest dramabomb, and TSL was because their players all left every time they got good.
TSL had trouble even securing sponsors even with power-hitters like Shine, HyuN, Symbol, and Polt. Seems kind of like a problem to me >_< There doesn't seem to be enough sponsor backing in Korea but then again it might be due to the KeSPA-influx. I don't know TSL's situation before the KeSPA transition though but I don't think it was any better.
That's mostly BECAUSE all TSL players left as soon as they got good.... SymboL got good but never showed any top finishes. HyuN is famous for being good, but aside from Fight Club, never showed top finishes. Shine was just known to be a solid player, but he wasn't famous. Polt was at his peak before he joined TSL. All of TSL's famous/huge players left as soon as they became good. Polt is the only acception as he came into TSL after he was already famous/huge.
TSL had the best sponsorship and the first salaries in SC2 history. Their problem arose because all of the TSL players backstabbed TSL due to greed and other selfish reasons.
If I were a sponsor I wouldn't want to sponsor a team that has a history of creating huge players that always leave to other teams, regardless of the high salary they make. (also why I wouldn't pick up Parting if I were a pro team manager)
What the... Symbol got 2nd place at Iron Squid 1, HomeStory Cup VI and MLG Spring Arena 2, plus 2 GSL Code S RO8 and a top 6 at IPL5. HyuN got 2nd place last GSL, which is pretty high finish.
TSL did a bad job at attracting sponsors. They had the entire 2012 to benefit the shape of Polt and Symbol (plus HyuN at the end of the year).
Yeah, I agree. They had a stacked lineup that SHOULD have been able to secure a few decent sponsors. Polt is a huge fan favorite and a top contender for most foreign tournaments he attends. Sure they don't have an MVP who wins 4 GSL's but who the fuck does other than IM? Lol. It's either ridiculously hard for these teams to pick up a stable sponsor nowadays or they are THAT bad at the business side of things.
I really think especially TSL and maybe even Slayers would not have disbanded if they have had a reasonable English-speaking manager. This is probably a bigger problem than finding sponsors itself.
Oh and btw why is SC2 dying becaue a completely irrelevant gaming house in NA, that I have never even heard of before, is closing its doors?
Look at the bigger picture. It might seem insignificant to you because you think it's "irrelevant" but it's essential to have regimented team houses in NA. It provides the means for players to go pro/train full-time so they can compete internationally, helps foster new talent and hopefully bring more sponsors in. These are all things that we want/need for e-sports to thrive over here. It's quite unfortunate that compLexity couldn't find a way to somehow make it more profitable and salvage their team house.
On January 14 2013 00:14 Soybanzai wrote: You can rent 2 bedroom apartment in Ohio for $450 a month, and stick 4 players in it... no reason to have a huge house to train in.
There are so many reasons why this is a terrible idea I can't even start. Even for free, I would never live like that. You cannot just shove players in front of computers and tell them to practice. The korean gaming houses are a great concept, but it is not the living space that makes them good, it is the number of coaches, players and overall infrastructure that makes them so good. The reason US soccer teams lose to every European and South American soccer teams is not because of the quality of their stadium or practice facility. And it has nothing to do with the number of hours they practice.
I think I called it when I said Disbanded TSL vs Dying coL.
Actually I think there was already a post about this before you made that comment.
On January 13 2013 17:23 ROOTheognis wrote:
On January 13 2013 17:17 dcemuser wrote:
On January 13 2013 13:18 aust77 wrote: As much as I've been something of a cynic with regard to recent developments in the scene (disbandment of SlayerS+TSL, with Prime/NSH possibly next), this news is less outright negative for the health of SC2 as an e-sport.
Considering how SlayerS and TSL disbanded, neither of those had much to do with the health of SC2 as an e-sport, lol. SlayerS was an explosion of the world's largest dramabomb, and TSL was because their players all left every time they got good.
TSL had trouble even securing sponsors even with power-hitters like Shine, HyuN, Symbol, and Polt. Seems kind of like a problem to me >_< There doesn't seem to be enough sponsor backing in Korea but then again it might be due to the KeSPA-influx. I don't know TSL's situation before the KeSPA transition though but I don't think it was any better.
That's mostly BECAUSE all TSL players left as soon as they got good.... SymboL got good but never showed any top finishes. HyuN is famous for being good, but aside from Fight Club, never showed top finishes. Shine was just known to be a solid player, but he wasn't famous. Polt was at his peak before he joined TSL. All of TSL's famous/huge players left as soon as they became good. Polt is the only acception as he came into TSL after he was already famous/huge.
TSL had the best sponsorship and the first salaries in SC2 history. Their problem arose because all of the TSL players backstabbed TSL due to greed and other selfish reasons.
If I were a sponsor I wouldn't want to sponsor a team that has a history of creating huge players that always leave to other teams, regardless of the high salary they make. (also why I wouldn't pick up Parting if I were a pro team manager)
What the... Symbol got 2nd place at Iron Squid 1, HomeStory Cup VI and MLG Spring Arena 2, plus 2 GSL Code S RO8 and a top 6 at IPL5. HyuN got 2nd place last GSL, which is pretty high finish.
TSL did a bad job at attracting sponsors. They had the entire 2012 to benefit the shape of Polt and Symbol (plus HyuN at the end of the year).
Yeah, I agree. They had a stacked lineup that SHOULD have been able to secure a few decent sponsors. Polt is a huge fan favorite and a top contender for most foreign tournaments he attends. Sure they don't have an MVP who wins 4 GSL's but who the fuck does other than IM? Lol. It's either ridiculously hard for these teams to pick up a stable sponsor nowadays or they are THAT bad at the business side of things.
I really think especially TSL and maybe even Slayers would not have disbanded if they have had a reasonable English-speaking manager. This is probably a bigger problem than finding sponsors itself.
Oh and btw why is SC2 dying becaue a completely irrelevant gaming house in NA, that I have never even heard of before, is closing its doors?
Look at the bigger picture. It might seem insignificant to you because you think it's "irrelevant" but it's essential to have regimented team houses in NA. It provides the means for players to go pro/train full-time so they can compete internationally, helps foster new talent and hopefully bring more sponsors in. These are all things that we want/need for e-sports to thrive over here. It's quite unfortunate that compLexity couldn't find a way to somehow make it more profitable and salvage their team house.
Maybe I am just not well informed, but I don't know about any foreign player that made significant improvements in tournament results because of MoW or any of the NA houses. Imo if these houses are anything, then they are extremely expensive marketing stunts and everyone gets hyped about them, because the community seems to think just by emulating the Korean training system and pimping it up with lots of money, the foreign players will suddenly become bonjwas. They won't and especially not in training houses that aren't build for training, but to provide media content none cares about(streams and what not). This isn't a sign of SC2 dying, it's a sign that the foreign way of "fostering new talent"(aka a throw a shit ton of money around) failed pretty hard.
I think I called it when I said Disbanded TSL vs Dying coL.
Actually I think there was already a post about this before you made that comment.
On January 13 2013 17:23 ROOTheognis wrote:
On January 13 2013 17:17 dcemuser wrote:
On January 13 2013 13:18 aust77 wrote: As much as I've been something of a cynic with regard to recent developments in the scene (disbandment of SlayerS+TSL, with Prime/NSH possibly next), this news is less outright negative for the health of SC2 as an e-sport.
Considering how SlayerS and TSL disbanded, neither of those had much to do with the health of SC2 as an e-sport, lol. SlayerS was an explosion of the world's largest dramabomb, and TSL was because their players all left every time they got good.
TSL had trouble even securing sponsors even with power-hitters like Shine, HyuN, Symbol, and Polt. Seems kind of like a problem to me >_< There doesn't seem to be enough sponsor backing in Korea but then again it might be due to the KeSPA-influx. I don't know TSL's situation before the KeSPA transition though but I don't think it was any better.
That's mostly BECAUSE all TSL players left as soon as they got good.... SymboL got good but never showed any top finishes. HyuN is famous for being good, but aside from Fight Club, never showed top finishes. Shine was just known to be a solid player, but he wasn't famous. Polt was at his peak before he joined TSL. All of TSL's famous/huge players left as soon as they became good. Polt is the only acception as he came into TSL after he was already famous/huge.
TSL had the best sponsorship and the first salaries in SC2 history. Their problem arose because all of the TSL players backstabbed TSL due to greed and other selfish reasons.
If I were a sponsor I wouldn't want to sponsor a team that has a history of creating huge players that always leave to other teams, regardless of the high salary they make. (also why I wouldn't pick up Parting if I were a pro team manager)
What the... Symbol got 2nd place at Iron Squid 1, HomeStory Cup VI and MLG Spring Arena 2, plus 2 GSL Code S RO8 and a top 6 at IPL5. HyuN got 2nd place last GSL, which is pretty high finish.
TSL did a bad job at attracting sponsors. They had the entire 2012 to benefit the shape of Polt and Symbol (plus HyuN at the end of the year).
Yeah, I agree. They had a stacked lineup that SHOULD have been able to secure a few decent sponsors. Polt is a huge fan favorite and a top contender for most foreign tournaments he attends. Sure they don't have an MVP who wins 4 GSL's but who the fuck does other than IM? Lol. It's either ridiculously hard for these teams to pick up a stable sponsor nowadays or they are THAT bad at the business side of things.
I really think especially TSL and maybe even Slayers would not have disbanded if they have had a reasonable English-speaking manager. This is probably a bigger problem than finding sponsors itself.
Oh and btw why is SC2 dying becaue a completely irrelevant gaming house in NA, that I have never even heard of before, is closing its doors?
Look at the bigger picture. It might seem insignificant to you because you think it's "irrelevant" but it's essential to have regimented team houses in NA. It provides the means for players to go pro/train full-time so they can compete internationally, helps foster new talent and hopefully bring more sponsors in. These are all things that we want/need for e-sports to thrive over here. It's quite unfortunate that compLexity couldn't find a way to somehow make it more profitable and salvage their team house.
Maybe I am just not well informed, but I don't know about any foreign player that made significant improvements in tournament results because of MoW or any of the NA houses. Imo if these houses are anything, then they are extremely expensive marketing stunts and everyone gets hyped about them, because the community seems to think just by emulating the Korean training system and pimping it up with lots of money, the foreign players will suddenly become bonjwas. They won't and especially not in training houses that aren't build for training, but to provide media content none cares about(streams and what not). This isn't a sign of SC2 dying, it's a sign that the foreign way of "fostering new talent"(aka a throw a shit ton of money around) failed pretty hard.
goswser and Sasquatch seem to have done pretty well in the coL house.
I think I called it when I said Disbanded TSL vs Dying coL.
Actually I think there was already a post about this before you made that comment.
On January 13 2013 17:23 ROOTheognis wrote:
On January 13 2013 17:17 dcemuser wrote:
On January 13 2013 13:18 aust77 wrote: As much as I've been something of a cynic with regard to recent developments in the scene (disbandment of SlayerS+TSL, with Prime/NSH possibly next), this news is less outright negative for the health of SC2 as an e-sport.
Considering how SlayerS and TSL disbanded, neither of those had much to do with the health of SC2 as an e-sport, lol. SlayerS was an explosion of the world's largest dramabomb, and TSL was because their players all left every time they got good.
TSL had trouble even securing sponsors even with power-hitters like Shine, HyuN, Symbol, and Polt. Seems kind of like a problem to me >_< There doesn't seem to be enough sponsor backing in Korea but then again it might be due to the KeSPA-influx. I don't know TSL's situation before the KeSPA transition though but I don't think it was any better.
That's mostly BECAUSE all TSL players left as soon as they got good.... SymboL got good but never showed any top finishes. HyuN is famous for being good, but aside from Fight Club, never showed top finishes. Shine was just known to be a solid player, but he wasn't famous. Polt was at his peak before he joined TSL. All of TSL's famous/huge players left as soon as they became good. Polt is the only acception as he came into TSL after he was already famous/huge.
TSL had the best sponsorship and the first salaries in SC2 history. Their problem arose because all of the TSL players backstabbed TSL due to greed and other selfish reasons.
If I were a sponsor I wouldn't want to sponsor a team that has a history of creating huge players that always leave to other teams, regardless of the high salary they make. (also why I wouldn't pick up Parting if I were a pro team manager)
What the... Symbol got 2nd place at Iron Squid 1, HomeStory Cup VI and MLG Spring Arena 2, plus 2 GSL Code S RO8 and a top 6 at IPL5. HyuN got 2nd place last GSL, which is pretty high finish.
TSL did a bad job at attracting sponsors. They had the entire 2012 to benefit the shape of Polt and Symbol (plus HyuN at the end of the year).
Yeah, I agree. They had a stacked lineup that SHOULD have been able to secure a few decent sponsors. Polt is a huge fan favorite and a top contender for most foreign tournaments he attends. Sure they don't have an MVP who wins 4 GSL's but who the fuck does other than IM? Lol. It's either ridiculously hard for these teams to pick up a stable sponsor nowadays or they are THAT bad at the business side of things.
I really think especially TSL and maybe even Slayers would not have disbanded if they have had a reasonable English-speaking manager. This is probably a bigger problem than finding sponsors itself.
Oh and btw why is SC2 dying becaue a completely irrelevant gaming house in NA, that I have never even heard of before, is closing its doors?
Look at the bigger picture. It might seem insignificant to you because you think it's "irrelevant" but it's essential to have regimented team houses in NA. It provides the means for players to go pro/train full-time so they can compete internationally, helps foster new talent and hopefully bring more sponsors in. These are all things that we want/need for e-sports to thrive over here. It's quite unfortunate that compLexity couldn't find a way to somehow make it more profitable and salvage their team house.
Maybe I am just not well informed, but I don't know about any foreign player that made significant improvements in tournament results because of MoW or any of the NA houses. Imo if these houses are anything, then they are extremely expensive marketing stunts and everyone gets hyped about them, because the community seems to think just by emulating the Korean training system and pimping it up with lots of money, the foreign players will suddenly become bonjwas. They won't and especially not in training houses that aren't build for training, but to provide media content none cares about(streams and what not). This isn't a sign of SC2 dying, it's a sign that the foreign way of "fostering new talent"(aka a throw a shit ton of money around) failed pretty hard.
I never said that the team houses that are around were perfected or operated correctly. Yes, there are problems with them. There needs to be a stricter format with practice + a qualified coach to help create + enforce this schedule. There's other items missing atm as well such as playing on the KR server and having enough practice partners (this is a big deal that is often overlooked http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/16gulf/col_shuts_down_gaming_house_rip_in_piece/c7vxjtz I can vouch for this as well as I was in the Quantic house). Another problem is the lack of mid-level tournaments that help develop players BEFORE they can step onto the international stage and compete with Koreans. There are many problems as to why foreigners can't just randomly compete with Koreans minus the few exceptions (Stephano/Scarlett).
The disappearance of the team houses doesn't help the cause. There somehow needs to be a reassessment of how they operate and we can work on the other hurdles foreigners are having. Btw, MoW wasn't even a team house. It was just a disorganized association of gamers that were there just to ladder and stream so they could make money to pay to rent.
I think I called it when I said Disbanded TSL vs Dying coL.
Actually I think there was already a post about this before you made that comment.
On January 13 2013 17:23 ROOTheognis wrote:
On January 13 2013 17:17 dcemuser wrote:
On January 13 2013 13:18 aust77 wrote: As much as I've been something of a cynic with regard to recent developments in the scene (disbandment of SlayerS+TSL, with Prime/NSH possibly next), this news is less outright negative for the health of SC2 as an e-sport.
Considering how SlayerS and TSL disbanded, neither of those had much to do with the health of SC2 as an e-sport, lol. SlayerS was an explosion of the world's largest dramabomb, and TSL was because their players all left every time they got good.
TSL had trouble even securing sponsors even with power-hitters like Shine, HyuN, Symbol, and Polt. Seems kind of like a problem to me >_< There doesn't seem to be enough sponsor backing in Korea but then again it might be due to the KeSPA-influx. I don't know TSL's situation before the KeSPA transition though but I don't think it was any better.
That's mostly BECAUSE all TSL players left as soon as they got good.... SymboL got good but never showed any top finishes. HyuN is famous for being good, but aside from Fight Club, never showed top finishes. Shine was just known to be a solid player, but he wasn't famous. Polt was at his peak before he joined TSL. All of TSL's famous/huge players left as soon as they became good. Polt is the only acception as he came into TSL after he was already famous/huge.
TSL had the best sponsorship and the first salaries in SC2 history. Their problem arose because all of the TSL players backstabbed TSL due to greed and other selfish reasons.
If I were a sponsor I wouldn't want to sponsor a team that has a history of creating huge players that always leave to other teams, regardless of the high salary they make. (also why I wouldn't pick up Parting if I were a pro team manager)
What the... Symbol got 2nd place at Iron Squid 1, HomeStory Cup VI and MLG Spring Arena 2, plus 2 GSL Code S RO8 and a top 6 at IPL5. HyuN got 2nd place last GSL, which is pretty high finish.
TSL did a bad job at attracting sponsors. They had the entire 2012 to benefit the shape of Polt and Symbol (plus HyuN at the end of the year).
Yeah, I agree. They had a stacked lineup that SHOULD have been able to secure a few decent sponsors. Polt is a huge fan favorite and a top contender for most foreign tournaments he attends. Sure they don't have an MVP who wins 4 GSL's but who the fuck does other than IM? Lol. It's either ridiculously hard for these teams to pick up a stable sponsor nowadays or they are THAT bad at the business side of things.
I really think especially TSL and maybe even Slayers would not have disbanded if they have had a reasonable English-speaking manager. This is probably a bigger problem than finding sponsors itself.
Oh and btw why is SC2 dying becaue a completely irrelevant gaming house in NA, that I have never even heard of before, is closing its doors?
Look at the bigger picture. It might seem insignificant to you because you think it's "irrelevant" but it's essential to have regimented team houses in NA. It provides the means for players to go pro/train full-time so they can compete internationally, helps foster new talent and hopefully bring more sponsors in. These are all things that we want/need for e-sports to thrive over here. It's quite unfortunate that compLexity couldn't find a way to somehow make it more profitable and salvage their team house.
Maybe I am just not well informed, but I don't know about any foreign player that made significant improvements in tournament results because of MoW or any of the NA houses. Imo if these houses are anything, then they are extremely expensive marketing stunts and everyone gets hyped about them, because the community seems to think just by emulating the Korean training system and pimping it up with lots of money, the foreign players will suddenly become bonjwas. They won't and especially not in training houses that aren't build for training, but to provide media content none cares about(streams and what not). This isn't a sign of SC2 dying, it's a sign that the foreign way of "fostering new talent"(aka a throw a shit ton of money around) failed pretty hard.
goswser and Sasquatch seem to have done pretty well in the coL house.
Ok, there is this one guy, goswer, that just had/has this good run in IronSquid. Never heard of Sasquatch. But still, that's like one player out of dozens that have played in team houses(including Demuslim, Idra and so on). Foreign players won't just magically become crazy good just because of the fact they live in a house with other players.
I think I called it when I said Disbanded TSL vs Dying coL.
Actually I think there was already a post about this before you made that comment.
On January 13 2013 17:23 ROOTheognis wrote:
On January 13 2013 17:17 dcemuser wrote:
On January 13 2013 13:18 aust77 wrote: As much as I've been something of a cynic with regard to recent developments in the scene (disbandment of SlayerS+TSL, with Prime/NSH possibly next), this news is less outright negative for the health of SC2 as an e-sport.
Considering how SlayerS and TSL disbanded, neither of those had much to do with the health of SC2 as an e-sport, lol. SlayerS was an explosion of the world's largest dramabomb, and TSL was because their players all left every time they got good.
TSL had trouble even securing sponsors even with power-hitters like Shine, HyuN, Symbol, and Polt. Seems kind of like a problem to me >_< There doesn't seem to be enough sponsor backing in Korea but then again it might be due to the KeSPA-influx. I don't know TSL's situation before the KeSPA transition though but I don't think it was any better.
That's mostly BECAUSE all TSL players left as soon as they got good.... SymboL got good but never showed any top finishes. HyuN is famous for being good, but aside from Fight Club, never showed top finishes. Shine was just known to be a solid player, but he wasn't famous. Polt was at his peak before he joined TSL. All of TSL's famous/huge players left as soon as they became good. Polt is the only acception as he came into TSL after he was already famous/huge.
TSL had the best sponsorship and the first salaries in SC2 history. Their problem arose because all of the TSL players backstabbed TSL due to greed and other selfish reasons.
If I were a sponsor I wouldn't want to sponsor a team that has a history of creating huge players that always leave to other teams, regardless of the high salary they make. (also why I wouldn't pick up Parting if I were a pro team manager)
What the... Symbol got 2nd place at Iron Squid 1, HomeStory Cup VI and MLG Spring Arena 2, plus 2 GSL Code S RO8 and a top 6 at IPL5. HyuN got 2nd place last GSL, which is pretty high finish.
TSL did a bad job at attracting sponsors. They had the entire 2012 to benefit the shape of Polt and Symbol (plus HyuN at the end of the year).
Yeah, I agree. They had a stacked lineup that SHOULD have been able to secure a few decent sponsors. Polt is a huge fan favorite and a top contender for most foreign tournaments he attends. Sure they don't have an MVP who wins 4 GSL's but who the fuck does other than IM? Lol. It's either ridiculously hard for these teams to pick up a stable sponsor nowadays or they are THAT bad at the business side of things.
I really think especially TSL and maybe even Slayers would not have disbanded if they have had a reasonable English-speaking manager. This is probably a bigger problem than finding sponsors itself.
Oh and btw why is SC2 dying becaue a completely irrelevant gaming house in NA, that I have never even heard of before, is closing its doors?
Look at the bigger picture. It might seem insignificant to you because you think it's "irrelevant" but it's essential to have regimented team houses in NA. It provides the means for players to go pro/train full-time so they can compete internationally, helps foster new talent and hopefully bring more sponsors in. These are all things that we want/need for e-sports to thrive over here. It's quite unfortunate that compLexity couldn't find a way to somehow make it more profitable and salvage their team house.
Maybe I am just not well informed, but I don't know about any foreign player that made significant improvements in tournament results because of MoW or any of the NA houses. Imo if these houses are anything, then they are extremely expensive marketing stunts and everyone gets hyped about them, because the community seems to think just by emulating the Korean training system and pimping it up with lots of money, the foreign players will suddenly become bonjwas. They won't and especially not in training houses that aren't build for training, but to provide media content none cares about(streams and what not). This isn't a sign of SC2 dying, it's a sign that the foreign way of "fostering new talent"(aka a throw a shit ton of money around) failed pretty hard.
I never said that the team houses that are around were perfected or operated correctly. Yes, there are problems with them. There needs to be a stricter format with practice + a qualified coach to help create + enforce this schedule. There's other items missing atm as well such as playing on the KR server and having enough practice partners (this is a big deal that is often overlooked http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/16gulf/col_shuts_down_gaming_house_rip_in_piece/c7vxjtz I can vouch for this as well as I was in the Quantic house). Another problem is the lack of mid-level tournaments that help develop players BEFORE they can step onto the international stage and compete with Koreans. There are many problems as to why foreigners can't just randomly compete with Koreans minus the few exceptions (Stephano/Scarlett).
The disappearance of the team houses doesn't help the cause. There somehow needs to be a reassessment of how they operate and we can work on the other hurdles foreigners are having. Btw, MoW wasn't even a team house. It was just a disorganized association of gamers that were there just to ladder and stream so they could make money to pay to rent.
So can we agree that team houses closing isn't a good thing(but maybe they have to learn it this way...), but it is not a sign of Starcraft dying? It just shows that the current concept of foreign houses is really lackluster.
I think I called it when I said Disbanded TSL vs Dying coL.
Actually I think there was already a post about this before you made that comment.
On January 13 2013 17:23 ROOTheognis wrote: [quote]
TSL had trouble even securing sponsors even with power-hitters like Shine, HyuN, Symbol, and Polt. Seems kind of like a problem to me >_< There doesn't seem to be enough sponsor backing in Korea but then again it might be due to the KeSPA-influx. I don't know TSL's situation before the KeSPA transition though but I don't think it was any better.
That's mostly BECAUSE all TSL players left as soon as they got good.... SymboL got good but never showed any top finishes. HyuN is famous for being good, but aside from Fight Club, never showed top finishes. Shine was just known to be a solid player, but he wasn't famous. Polt was at his peak before he joined TSL. All of TSL's famous/huge players left as soon as they became good. Polt is the only acception as he came into TSL after he was already famous/huge.
TSL had the best sponsorship and the first salaries in SC2 history. Their problem arose because all of the TSL players backstabbed TSL due to greed and other selfish reasons.
If I were a sponsor I wouldn't want to sponsor a team that has a history of creating huge players that always leave to other teams, regardless of the high salary they make. (also why I wouldn't pick up Parting if I were a pro team manager)
What the... Symbol got 2nd place at Iron Squid 1, HomeStory Cup VI and MLG Spring Arena 2, plus 2 GSL Code S RO8 and a top 6 at IPL5. HyuN got 2nd place last GSL, which is pretty high finish.
TSL did a bad job at attracting sponsors. They had the entire 2012 to benefit the shape of Polt and Symbol (plus HyuN at the end of the year).
Yeah, I agree. They had a stacked lineup that SHOULD have been able to secure a few decent sponsors. Polt is a huge fan favorite and a top contender for most foreign tournaments he attends. Sure they don't have an MVP who wins 4 GSL's but who the fuck does other than IM? Lol. It's either ridiculously hard for these teams to pick up a stable sponsor nowadays or they are THAT bad at the business side of things.
I really think especially TSL and maybe even Slayers would not have disbanded if they have had a reasonable English-speaking manager. This is probably a bigger problem than finding sponsors itself.
Oh and btw why is SC2 dying becaue a completely irrelevant gaming house in NA, that I have never even heard of before, is closing its doors?
Look at the bigger picture. It might seem insignificant to you because you think it's "irrelevant" but it's essential to have regimented team houses in NA. It provides the means for players to go pro/train full-time so they can compete internationally, helps foster new talent and hopefully bring more sponsors in. These are all things that we want/need for e-sports to thrive over here. It's quite unfortunate that compLexity couldn't find a way to somehow make it more profitable and salvage their team house.
Maybe I am just not well informed, but I don't know about any foreign player that made significant improvements in tournament results because of MoW or any of the NA houses. Imo if these houses are anything, then they are extremely expensive marketing stunts and everyone gets hyped about them, because the community seems to think just by emulating the Korean training system and pimping it up with lots of money, the foreign players will suddenly become bonjwas. They won't and especially not in training houses that aren't build for training, but to provide media content none cares about(streams and what not). This isn't a sign of SC2 dying, it's a sign that the foreign way of "fostering new talent"(aka a throw a shit ton of money around) failed pretty hard.
goswser and Sasquatch seem to have done pretty well in the coL house.
Ok, there is this one guy, goswer, that just had/has this good run in IronSquid. Never heard of Sasquatch. But still, that's like one player out of dozens that have played in team houses(including Demuslim, Idra and so on). Foreign players won't just magically become crazy good just because of the fact they live in a house with other players.
You underestimate what a team house can do. People for the most part just can't ladder on NA and compete with Code S Koreans
I don't undererstimate what they can do, if they are run well and the players are coached properly. But afaik most of the foreign houses are neither well run/organized nor are the players properly coached, which makes them just a couple of guys living and laddering together.
I think I called it when I said Disbanded TSL vs Dying coL.
Actually I think there was already a post about this before you made that comment.
On January 13 2013 17:23 ROOTheognis wrote:
On January 13 2013 17:17 dcemuser wrote: [quote]
Considering how SlayerS and TSL disbanded, neither of those had much to do with the health of SC2 as an e-sport, lol. SlayerS was an explosion of the world's largest dramabomb, and TSL was because their players all left every time they got good.
TSL had trouble even securing sponsors even with power-hitters like Shine, HyuN, Symbol, and Polt. Seems kind of like a problem to me >_< There doesn't seem to be enough sponsor backing in Korea but then again it might be due to the KeSPA-influx. I don't know TSL's situation before the KeSPA transition though but I don't think it was any better.
That's mostly BECAUSE all TSL players left as soon as they got good.... SymboL got good but never showed any top finishes. HyuN is famous for being good, but aside from Fight Club, never showed top finishes. Shine was just known to be a solid player, but he wasn't famous. Polt was at his peak before he joined TSL. All of TSL's famous/huge players left as soon as they became good. Polt is the only acception as he came into TSL after he was already famous/huge.
TSL had the best sponsorship and the first salaries in SC2 history. Their problem arose because all of the TSL players backstabbed TSL due to greed and other selfish reasons.
If I were a sponsor I wouldn't want to sponsor a team that has a history of creating huge players that always leave to other teams, regardless of the high salary they make. (also why I wouldn't pick up Parting if I were a pro team manager)
What the... Symbol got 2nd place at Iron Squid 1, HomeStory Cup VI and MLG Spring Arena 2, plus 2 GSL Code S RO8 and a top 6 at IPL5. HyuN got 2nd place last GSL, which is pretty high finish.
TSL did a bad job at attracting sponsors. They had the entire 2012 to benefit the shape of Polt and Symbol (plus HyuN at the end of the year).
Yeah, I agree. They had a stacked lineup that SHOULD have been able to secure a few decent sponsors. Polt is a huge fan favorite and a top contender for most foreign tournaments he attends. Sure they don't have an MVP who wins 4 GSL's but who the fuck does other than IM? Lol. It's either ridiculously hard for these teams to pick up a stable sponsor nowadays or they are THAT bad at the business side of things.
I really think especially TSL and maybe even Slayers would not have disbanded if they have had a reasonable English-speaking manager. This is probably a bigger problem than finding sponsors itself.
Oh and btw why is SC2 dying becaue a completely irrelevant gaming house in NA, that I have never even heard of before, is closing its doors?
Look at the bigger picture. It might seem insignificant to you because you think it's "irrelevant" but it's essential to have regimented team houses in NA. It provides the means for players to go pro/train full-time so they can compete internationally, helps foster new talent and hopefully bring more sponsors in. These are all things that we want/need for e-sports to thrive over here. It's quite unfortunate that compLexity couldn't find a way to somehow make it more profitable and salvage their team house.
Maybe I am just not well informed, but I don't know about any foreign player that made significant improvements in tournament results because of MoW or any of the NA houses. Imo if these houses are anything, then they are extremely expensive marketing stunts and everyone gets hyped about them, because the community seems to think just by emulating the Korean training system and pimping it up with lots of money, the foreign players will suddenly become bonjwas. They won't and especially not in training houses that aren't build for training, but to provide media content none cares about(streams and what not). This isn't a sign of SC2 dying, it's a sign that the foreign way of "fostering new talent"(aka a throw a shit ton of money around) failed pretty hard.
goswser and Sasquatch seem to have done pretty well in the coL house.
Ok, there is this one guy, goswer, that just had/has this good run in IronSquid. Never heard of Sasquatch. But still, that's like one player out of dozens that have played in team houses(including Demuslim, Idra and so on). Foreign players won't just magically become crazy good just because of the fact they live in a house with other players.
You underestimate what a team house can do. People for the most part just can't ladder on NA and compete with Code S Koreans
On January 14 2013 03:10 ES.Genie wrote: But afaik most of the foreign houses are neither well run/organized nor are the players properly coached, which makes them just a couple of guys living and laddering together.
Foreign Team Houses are a concept still in infancy.
The Koreans have had a decade to get all the kinks worked out, and they're not exactly forthcoming with all the details.
As far as foreign team-houses go, there are currently only two in operation:
The EG Lair, which serves largely as a home-base for the brand first, and a training facility for the players second.
The Clarity Gaming Training Facility, which is still in it's opening stages.
There's only so much I can say about the Complexity House, or the Quantic House without sharing information I shouldn't, but suffice to say they weren't "failed ventures" because the players didn't show immediate dramatic leaps in skill. There were numerous other factors involved.
The other thing you have to consider is what a team house allows a team with Korean players to do; it allows the team to eliminate the continual cost of international flights from Korea, as well as allowing more access to content with the players.
To consider Ministry of Win a "Team House" is laughable. There is no team involved, it's LITERALLY just people living together laddering.
TL;DR Team houses aren't meant to show immediate dramatic improvement in players. Look at Korea, it doesn't happen there either. There are too many variables to consider when evaluating the goals of a team house.
On January 14 2013 00:14 Soybanzai wrote: You can rent 2 bedroom apartment in Ohio for $450 a month, and stick 4 players in it... no reason to have a huge house to train in.
There are so many reasons why this is a terrible idea I can't even start. Even for free, I would never live like that. You cannot just shove players in front of computers and tell them to practice. The korean gaming houses are a great concept, but it is not the living space that makes them good, it is the number of coaches, players and overall infrastructure that makes them so good. The reason US soccer teams lose to every European and South American soccer teams is not because of the quality of their stadium or practice facility. And it has nothing to do with the number of hours they practice.
You mean, because soccer is not popular here at all so the talent pool is so tiny because all the athletic people are playing football, basketball, baseball, or even hockey instead.
I know Liquid'Tyler has said in the past that you need to train in a house full time for 6 months to a year before you have seen improvement from being in the team house. And that is assuming optimal conditions in a korean training house with the best practice environment. But for some reason people on teamliquid expect 3-4 months in a foreign team house will turn no names into tournament winners.
On January 14 2013 03:10 ES.Genie wrote: But afaik most of the foreign houses are neither well run/organized nor are the players properly coached, which makes them just a couple of guys living and laddering together.
Foreign Team Houses are a concept still in infancy.
The Koreans have had a decade to get all the kinks worked out, and they're not exactly forthcoming with all the details.
As far as foreign team-houses go, there are currently only two in operation:
The EG Lair, which serves largely as a home-base for the brand first, and a training facility for the players second.
The Clarity Gaming Training Facility, which is still in it's opening stages.
There's only so much I can say about the Complexity House, or the Quantic House without sharing information I shouldn't, but suffice to say they weren't "failed ventures" because the players didn't show immediate dramatic leaps in skill. There were numerous other factors involved.
The other thing you have to consider is what a team house allows a team with Korean players to do; it allows the team to eliminate the continual cost of international flights from Korea, as well as allowing more access to content with the players.
To consider Ministry of Win a "Team House" is laughable. There is no team involved, it's LITERALLY just people living together laddering.
TL;DR Team houses aren't meant to show immediate dramatic improvement in players. Look at Korea, it doesn't happen there either. There are too many variables to consider when evaluating the goals of a team house.
Millenium also have a team house. But it's more than just a training house since writers, video editors and casters are working there as well. You seem quite narrow-minded on that topic...
On January 14 2013 00:14 Soybanzai wrote: You can rent 2 bedroom apartment in Ohio for $450 a month, and stick 4 players in it... no reason to have a huge house to train in.
There are so many reasons why this is a terrible idea I can't even start. Even for free, I would never live like that. You cannot just shove players in front of computers and tell them to practice. The korean gaming houses are a great concept, but it is not the living space that makes them good, it is the number of coaches, players and overall infrastructure that makes them so good. The reason US soccer teams lose to every European and South American soccer teams is not because of the quality of their stadium or practice facility. And it has nothing to do with the number of hours they practice.
You mean, because soccer is not popular here at all so the talent pool is so tiny because all the athletic people are playing football, basketball, baseball, or even hockey instead.
And even if their was a highly talented player(and there likely is), an NA soccer team would lack the infrastructure to find and take advantage of that player fully. In most high level professional sports there is an entire career in scouting out new talent. NA esports teams has none of these things, while the Korean teams are already set up and ready to train up a new player. Even with that, the Korean SC2 teams have their own problems, like not being able to fund themselves or learn that paying players is key to keeping them.
It is a growth market and some teams are go through a trial and error period. People cannot sing the death of SC2 song every time a team goes "fuck, this rent isn't worth it. We need to find a better practice location." The team house is a great idea, but so is making players move to a specific area and renting an office for them to practice in, while the owner runs the team out of the same office. Getting coaches to help direct the players training would also help.
On January 14 2013 03:10 ES.Genie wrote: But afaik most of the foreign houses are neither well run/organized nor are the players properly coached, which makes them just a couple of guys living and laddering together.
Foreign Team Houses are a concept still in infancy.
The Koreans have had a decade to get all the kinks worked out, and they're not exactly forthcoming with all the details.
As far as foreign team-houses go, there are currently only two in operation:
The EG Lair, which serves largely as a home-base for the brand first, and a training facility for the players second.
The Clarity Gaming Training Facility, which is still in it's opening stages.
There's only so much I can say about the Complexity House, or the Quantic House without sharing information I shouldn't, but suffice to say they weren't "failed ventures" because the players didn't show immediate dramatic leaps in skill. There were numerous other factors involved.
The other thing you have to consider is what a team house allows a team with Korean players to do; it allows the team to eliminate the continual cost of international flights from Korea, as well as allowing more access to content with the players.
To consider Ministry of Win a "Team House" is laughable. There is no team involved, it's LITERALLY just people living together laddering.
TL;DR Team houses aren't meant to show immediate dramatic improvement in players. Look at Korea, it doesn't happen there either. There are too many variables to consider when evaluating the goals of a team house.
Millenium also have a team house. But it's more than just a training house since writers, video editors and casters are working there as well. You seem quite narrow-minded on that topic...
Sorry, my mistake. Three* foreign team houses.
I'm not quite sure how that makes me "quite narrow-minded" on the concept of foreign team houses, considering I operate one and all.
On January 14 2013 03:10 ES.Genie wrote: But afaik most of the foreign houses are neither well run/organized nor are the players properly coached, which makes them just a couple of guys living and laddering together.
Foreign Team Houses are a concept still in infancy.
The Koreans have had a decade to get all the kinks worked out, and they're not exactly forthcoming with all the details.
As far as foreign team-houses go, there are currently only two in operation:
The EG Lair, which serves largely as a home-base for the brand first, and a training facility for the players second.
The Clarity Gaming Training Facility, which is still in it's opening stages.
There's only so much I can say about the Complexity House, or the Quantic House without sharing information I shouldn't, but suffice to say they weren't "failed ventures" because the players didn't show immediate dramatic leaps in skill. There were numerous other factors involved.
The other thing you have to consider is what a team house allows a team with Korean players to do; it allows the team to eliminate the continual cost of international flights from Korea, as well as allowing more access to content with the players.
To consider Ministry of Win a "Team House" is laughable. There is no team involved, it's LITERALLY just people living together laddering.
TL;DR Team houses aren't meant to show immediate dramatic improvement in players. Look at Korea, it doesn't happen there either. There are too many variables to consider when evaluating the goals of a team house.
Millenium also have a team house. But it's more than just a training house since writers, video editors and casters are working there as well. You seem quite narrow-minded on that topic...
Sorry, my mistake. Three* foreign team houses.
I'm not quite sure how that makes me "quite narrow-minded" on the concept of foreign team houses, considering I operate one and all.
We are all, if we weren't we would run our own teamhouses by now instead of posting our opinions about it.
The small teams, with almost no success, can't survive nowadays, if there isn't a millionare behind the team. you need success and prize money to stay at top. even TSL couldn't stand it in korea. If Azubu won't win anything, it won't last very long. I think team mousesports could be the next team or teams like apex esport or AAA. (sorry for my bad english).
well they said when they opened they would have almost all players streaming and have content but since than they have had little to none. col hasnt been the same since cgs
On January 14 2013 03:10 ES.Genie wrote: But afaik most of the foreign houses are neither well run/organized nor are the players properly coached, which makes them just a couple of guys living and laddering together.
Foreign Team Houses are a concept still in infancy.
The Koreans have had a decade to get all the kinks worked out, and they're not exactly forthcoming with all the details.
As far as foreign team-houses go, there are currently only two in operation:
The EG Lair, which serves largely as a home-base for the brand first, and a training facility for the players second.
The Clarity Gaming Training Facility, which is still in it's opening stages.
There's only so much I can say about the Complexity House, or the Quantic House without sharing information I shouldn't, but suffice to say they weren't "failed ventures" because the players didn't show immediate dramatic leaps in skill. There were numerous other factors involved.
The other thing you have to consider is what a team house allows a team with Korean players to do; it allows the team to eliminate the continual cost of international flights from Korea, as well as allowing more access to content with the players.
To consider Ministry of Win a "Team House" is laughable. There is no team involved, it's LITERALLY just people living together laddering.
TL;DR Team houses aren't meant to show immediate dramatic improvement in players. Look at Korea, it doesn't happen there either. There are too many variables to consider when evaluating the goals of a team house.
Millenium also have a team house. But it's more than just a training house since writers, video editors and casters are working there as well. You seem quite narrow-minded on that topic...
Sorry, my mistake. Three* foreign team houses.
I'm not quite sure how that makes me "quite narrow-minded" on the concept of foreign team houses, considering I operate one and all.
We are all, if we weren't we would run our own teamhouses by now instead of posting our opinions about it.
On January 14 2013 05:48 JtoK wrote: The small teams, with almost no success, can't survive nowadays, if there isn't a millionare behind the team. you need success and prize money to stay at top. even TSL couldn't stand it in korea. If Azubu won't win anything, it won't last very long. I think team mousesports could be the next team or teams like apex esport or AAA. (sorry for my bad english).
apex disbanded like two weeks after it formed, lol
On January 13 2013 12:31 Shinespark wrote: SC2's death is coming a little faster every day...
Didn't you read? The reason they closed it down cause of lack of Marketing, they had planned to release media content which would support the financial side of the teamhouse, much like what EG and TeamLiquid does.
If this was 2011 they probably wouldn't have closed it. At this point in time, there is no reason to invest in a progaming house for foreigners, as all you get are low stream numbers, low view counts and zero results.
I don't want to join the bandwagon regarding sc2's death, but Col's house highlights the situation of teams that aren't EG or TL, teams that do not have (seemingly) endless pockets.
There are plenty of good reasons as long as you know how to run a company, Just look at EG and TL, their players are nothing special among the top of of pro players. There are actually only two NA teams that understands how to run a business because that's what running a team is, a business. The other teams are terrible at marketing themselves, their products (in this case the players) and to highlight their sponsors.
The amount of top players that can make it is saturated at this point but not amount of teams. And the only reason why EG and TL still are running is not because they have money but because they are generating money. TotalBiscuits SC2 team won't die out anytime soon mainly because TB is generating money from his ability to promote and advertise with youtube.
And why the hell shouldn't the other teams go down? In some areas, like the IT and information industry, which we are in, the failure rate within the first 5 years is as high as 95%
The reason why these teams fails are not because of SC2, it's because they don't know shit about business and therefore they close down, this happens in every other single business niche, why would SC2 be any different?.
It's not a a amazingly huge project. You get a house, good players and then you somehow promote them and their sponsors, that's it! Now, I'm not saying its easy, what I'm pointing out is that it's very doable. And there are even people out there who sells "crap in a box" which essentially is bullshit and the only reason people are paying for it is because their marketing is so dammn good, that sometimes, even if you don't have anything of real value you can still make a profit because you know how to market something incredible well.
On January 14 2013 06:13 AnomalySC2 wrote: There just aren't enough viewers yet to support team houses in esports. More viewers = more sponsor interest = more money. Simple concept really.
I don't think it's necessarily the number of viewers that's the problem. I think it's just completely pointless to setup and operate a team house outside of Korea. None of the team houses that operate in North America or Europe have produced any truly meaningful results or growth within the players. More than once we've seen players drastically improve from even relatively short stays in Korea. Simply you cant train on NA ladder and complete with the KR ladder.
On January 14 2013 06:13 AnomalySC2 wrote: There just aren't enough viewers yet to support team houses in esports. More viewers = more sponsor interest = more money. Simple concept really.
I don't think it's necessarily the number of viewers that's the problem. I think it's just completely pointless to setup and operate a team house outside of Korea. None of the team houses that operate in North America or Europe have produced any truly meaningful results or growth within the players. More than once we've seen players drastically improve from even relatively short stays in Korea. Simply you cant train on NA ladder and complete with the KR ladder.
Yeah I guess that's another part of the problem :\
Koreans OP
Edit: I think that problem is going to hit LoL as well. Already korean pro teams are already on a much higher level than NA or EU.
What is happening in korea is partially just because Kespa is saturating that market for teams and teams fail and fall short all the time. Overall I think getting Azubu into sc2 seriously and Axiom created is worth more then the loss of Slayers and Quantic.
On January 13 2013 12:17 Fionn wrote: So Azubu is out on Polt, EG or TL is unlikely, and Complexity closed their house.
Incoming Polt.Polt.
FXO.NA.POLT? Still an option although its starting to look like Polt will have to forgo joining a team. CSL still an option though.
I'm sure he'll find a team. He's one of the top ten most successful players in Wings of Liberty, is probably the best Korean with English, has over 10,000 Twitter followers and is focused on foreign tournaments.
How so? Mvp, MMA, MC, NesTea, Stephano, DRG, Leenock, Life, MKP and Parting are all more successful than Polt even if Stephano, Leenock, Parting and MKP didn't exactly won GSL championship.
On January 13 2013 12:17 Fionn wrote: So Azubu is out on Polt, EG or TL is unlikely, and Complexity closed their house.
Incoming Polt.Polt.
FXO.NA.POLT? Still an option although its starting to look like Polt will have to forgo joining a team. CSL still an option though.
I'm sure he'll find a team. He's one of the top ten most successful players in Wings of Liberty, is probably the best Korean with English, has over 10,000 Twitter followers and is focused on foreign tournaments.
How so? Mvp, MMA, MC, NesTea, Stephano, DRG, Leenock, Life, MKP and Parting are all more successful than Polt even if Stephano, Leenock, Parting and MKP didn't exactly won GSL championship.
He is definitely top, though.
Polt is actually above PartinG and Life in all-time earnings.
On January 13 2013 12:17 Fionn wrote: So Azubu is out on Polt, EG or TL is unlikely, and Complexity closed their house.
Incoming Polt.Polt.
FXO.NA.POLT? Still an option although its starting to look like Polt will have to forgo joining a team. CSL still an option though.
I'm sure he'll find a team. He's one of the top ten most successful players in Wings of Liberty, is probably the best Korean with English, has over 10,000 Twitter followers and is focused on foreign tournaments.
How so? Mvp, MMA, MC, NesTea, Stephano, DRG, Leenock, Life, MKP and Parting are all more successful than Polt even if Stephano, Leenock, Parting and MKP didn't exactly won GSL championship.
He is definitely top, though.
That's not the point, he still is on top of the earnings list and is an incredibly popular player who often turns out to be the Terran hope in tournaments. Sure there are higher players on the earnings list, but Polt has that rare combination of personality, English skills and Terran that makes him a better choice for teams than a MMA or PartinG.
Not really surprising considering that foreigners keep falling further and further behind koreans. Who the hell wants to support a team when none of their players are even top 100 in the world? Personality and white skin can only take you so far in the world of starcraft. Combine that with declining viewership for SCII, and there's no way sponsors are going to fund these all these teams. Honestly, I think that in a few years the only foreigner teams that even exist will be ones that are stacked with korean players.
On January 14 2013 06:49 LeeDawg wrote: i like how they used a baseball reference at the end. like most nerds would get it. LOL
User was temp banned for this post.
Why was this man ostracised for this particular post?
Though back on topic, it is disheartening to read of this news. Perhaps their training regime wasn't successful, in which case they made a wise decision but it still is a sad loss. Practice makes a man perfect, without practice and training they cannot hope to achieve much.
i wasn't talking about earnings. some tournaments had unreasonably high prize pool. st was worth like two regular gsls in prizes but i don't think it's twice the accomplishement. i was talking about career accomplishments, though i agree he is extremely popular, speaks best english and has enjoyable personality so he definitely is in top 10 in value
It sucks, but gaming houses in the US are just not viable due to how spread out events are. They need to centralise the tournaments in one area, then team houses can open around that. However, you are then limiting the people who can come and see the events. It's a lose lose
TBQH it looks like COL was dumped by gamma gamers or whatever the sponsor was called and were, in turn, kciked out of the house. i feel bad because that gamma shit sucked....actually i never tried it because it was so damn expensive.
Why is everyone is SC2 so focused on housing? Sometimes I am almost not sure if I am on a gaming or real estate forum. I am not really sure how the Korean tradition started, but I really think that people are overdoing it by following it literarly. If you think that professional SC2 has to be a fulltime job, fair enough, make an office where the players meet for the day and practice, but do they really have to live in their workplace? Noone else does, so what does make them so special? It just costs money and creates a huge, completely unnecessary overhead. They have to keep a backup place to stay anyway, because noone can count on a team house as a stable living option, so there is not so much gain for the either.
They close the house after only 7 months? The talents of those players that were staying there had greatly improved.....How about getting a decent sized house and not going bill gates mansion on a gaming house. In order for foreigners to get up to korean level there needs to be more team houses going up otherwise the skill gap will only distance itself....
IMO, it's stuff like this that keeps NA from being as competitive as it could be. Instead of putting their money towards training their players with things like second-string (sorry) players to practice against, houses to focus in, coaches to direct practice, etc, they only get top tier talent, sell their houses, never hire REAL coaches, and spend their money on advertising. They build the business, but not the product. It's such an odd way of trying to be competitive...
On January 15 2013 22:55 opisska wrote: Why is everyone is SC2 so focused on housing? Sometimes I am almost not sure if I am on a gaming or real estate forum. I am not really sure how the Korean tradition started, but I really think that people are overdoing it by following it literarly. If you think that professional SC2 has to be a fulltime job, fair enough, make an office where the players meet for the day and practice, but do they really have to live in their workplace? Noone else does, so what does make them so special? It just costs money and creates a huge, completely unnecessary overhead. They have to keep a backup place to stay anyway, because noone can count on a team house as a stable living option, so there is not so much gain for the either.
Because for players to afford their own living they have to get paid.
EPT![[image loading]](http://www.esfiworld.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/jlake0lcs.jpg)
the guys really seemed to benefit from having a place to train.
