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Buff snipe v massive
Fungal slows just like time warp but damages
Hydra buffed - start with range upgrade + speed off creep
Ultra buff
Brood damage nerf
Cattle bruiser speed increase
Carrier buff
Raven HSM replaced with something good
Collosi replaced with something interesting
Profit.
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On January 13 2013 06:30 vthree wrote:
Honestly, during the past few days. I am starting to think that infestors/BL isn't even the core of the problem.
I think that after the queen patch, zerg early and mid game is just too strong. And it just snowballs from that point. Infestor/BL was just the easiest comp for zergs to end the game with. Looking at the games themselves, you always hear things like the Terran didn't see the early roaches coming, or the Protoss spotted the muta switch too late, etc. You almost never hear that about Zerg. Because in the early/mid game, they pretty much know everything their opponent is doing and thus can either punish them or be as greedy as possible. Zerg pretty much dictation the pace and flow of the game. They also have so much map control once speed lings are out. Creep spread also gives them so much vision.
Zergs has always been the most 'reactive' race in that they can switch their composition the easiest. If terrans start their Viking production only after seeing 4 colossi, there is no way they will have them in time, this is not true for Zerg. They can build 8-10 corruptor in one round.. And with the queen/OL buff, they have all the early game intel while denying the opponents.
So I think in order to have a 'balance' game, we actually have to make Zerg end game the weakest because even if the late game army were even, the zergs still carry too much of an advantage from the early and mid game. And I don't think that is good design.
Rather, we should look the early and mid game and see what can be done to give the other 2 races better counter/scouting. IMO, early roaches are too good vs Terran. You basically have to blindly build marauders or the roaches WILL do damage. But if you overbuild them and Zerg went lings, you will not be able to move out at all. Terrans need more reliable scouting besides having to waste 540 minerals on 2 scans.
No, infestor/BL is definitely the issue. It doesn't have to do with ease, it has to do with effectiveness. Because Zergs, if they can get to infestor/BL even if they were at a massive disadvantage early/mid game, can still win. I've seen engagements where maxed armies engage, and the Terran didn't kill a SINGLE UNIT that cost minerals from the Zerg. It was at a LAN I was at and it happened to Select, where he couldn't do shit. We've seen COUNTLESS times where a Zerg who's been behind can survive til that composition, then roll the other side.
There's no question that infestor/BL is the biggest issue tbh.
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So glad they're going to be handling the map pool better. I lost a LOT of drive from playing the SAME maps for 6+ seasons.
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On January 13 2013 06:37 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2013 06:30 vthree wrote:
Honestly, during the past few days. I am starting to think that infestors/BL isn't even the core of the problem.
I think that after the queen patch, zerg early and mid game is just too strong. And it just snowballs from that point. Infestor/BL was just the easiest comp for zergs to end the game with. Looking at the games themselves, you always hear things like the Terran didn't see the early roaches coming, or the Protoss spotted the muta switch too late, etc. You almost never hear that about Zerg. Because in the early/mid game, they pretty much know everything their opponent is doing and thus can either punish them or be as greedy as possible. Zerg pretty much dictation the pace and flow of the game. They also have so much map control once speed lings are out. Creep spread also gives them so much vision.
Zergs has always been the most 'reactive' race in that they can switch their composition the easiest. If terrans start their Viking production only after seeing 4 colossi, there is no way they will have them in time, this is not true for Zerg. They can build 8-10 corruptor in one round.. And with the queen/OL buff, they have all the early game intel while denying the opponents.
So I think in order to have a 'balance' game, we actually have to make Zerg end game the weakest because even if the late game army were even, the zergs still carry too much of an advantage from the early and mid game. And I don't think that is good design.
Rather, we should look the early and mid game and see what can be done to give the other 2 races better counter/scouting. IMO, early roaches are too good vs Terran. You basically have to blindly build marauders or the roaches WILL do damage. But if you overbuild them and Zerg went lings, you will not be able to move out at all. Terrans need more reliable scouting besides having to waste 540 minerals on 2 scans. No, infestor/BL is definitely the issue. It doesn't have to do with ease, it has to do with effectiveness. Because Zergs, if they can get to infestor/BL even if they were at a massive disadvantage early/mid game, can still win. I've seen engagements where maxed armies engage, and the Terran didn't kill a SINGLE UNIT that cost minerals from the Zerg. It was at a LAN I was at and it happened to Select, where he couldn't do shit. We've seen COUNTLESS times where a Zerg who's been behind can survive til that composition, then roll the other side. There's no question that infestor/BL is the biggest issue tbh.
Like I said, infestor/BL are the strongest end game comp for sure. But we have seen roach/hydra ZvT from Stephano, ling bling ultra from Symbol, mass mutas from Shine (PL). In your example, the Zerg was behind and needed infestor/BL. But zergs only get behind if they take a poor engagements. If you see the top zergs play now, they are almost never behind and pretty much dictate everything their opponent does.
It just doesn't make sense for the race that can adapt their comp the fastest to have the best early game scouting, map control, map vision.
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On January 13 2013 06:43 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2013 06:37 FabledIntegral wrote:On January 13 2013 06:30 vthree wrote:
Honestly, during the past few days. I am starting to think that infestors/BL isn't even the core of the problem.
I think that after the queen patch, zerg early and mid game is just too strong. And it just snowballs from that point. Infestor/BL was just the easiest comp for zergs to end the game with. Looking at the games themselves, you always hear things like the Terran didn't see the early roaches coming, or the Protoss spotted the muta switch too late, etc. You almost never hear that about Zerg. Because in the early/mid game, they pretty much know everything their opponent is doing and thus can either punish them or be as greedy as possible. Zerg pretty much dictation the pace and flow of the game. They also have so much map control once speed lings are out. Creep spread also gives them so much vision.
Zergs has always been the most 'reactive' race in that they can switch their composition the easiest. If terrans start their Viking production only after seeing 4 colossi, there is no way they will have them in time, this is not true for Zerg. They can build 8-10 corruptor in one round.. And with the queen/OL buff, they have all the early game intel while denying the opponents.
So I think in order to have a 'balance' game, we actually have to make Zerg end game the weakest because even if the late game army were even, the zergs still carry too much of an advantage from the early and mid game. And I don't think that is good design.
Rather, we should look the early and mid game and see what can be done to give the other 2 races better counter/scouting. IMO, early roaches are too good vs Terran. You basically have to blindly build marauders or the roaches WILL do damage. But if you overbuild them and Zerg went lings, you will not be able to move out at all. Terrans need more reliable scouting besides having to waste 540 minerals on 2 scans. No, infestor/BL is definitely the issue. It doesn't have to do with ease, it has to do with effectiveness. Because Zergs, if they can get to infestor/BL even if they were at a massive disadvantage early/mid game, can still win. I've seen engagements where maxed armies engage, and the Terran didn't kill a SINGLE UNIT that cost minerals from the Zerg. It was at a LAN I was at and it happened to Select, where he couldn't do shit. We've seen COUNTLESS times where a Zerg who's been behind can survive til that composition, then roll the other side. There's no question that infestor/BL is the biggest issue tbh. Like I said, infestor/BL are the strongest end game comp for sure. But we have seen roach/hydra ZvT from Stephano, ling bling ultra from Symbol, mass mutas from Shine (PL). In your example, the Zerg was behind and needed infestor/BL. But zergs only get behind if they take a poor engagements. If you see the top zergs play now, they are almost never behind and pretty much dictate everything their opponent does. It just doesn't make sense for the race that can adapt their comp the fastest to have the best early game scouting, map control, map vision.
You can't switch between roach/hydra and something else though. It's not easy to switch out of mass muta either. I mean, the production is easy, but the viability isn't there. I don't see anything wrong with what you mentioned. We saw Stephano win with Roach/Hydra... so what? Are you saying that he shouldn't have won that game? Are you saying that Zergs shouldn't win with ling/bling/ultra?
I understand what you're saying midgame - but the other races can still hold their own. The issue is that the other races cannot hold their own vs Infestor/BL.
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On January 13 2013 06:37 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2013 06:30 vthree wrote:
Honestly, during the past few days. I am starting to think that infestors/BL isn't even the core of the problem.
I think that after the queen patch, zerg early and mid game is just too strong. And it just snowballs from that point. Infestor/BL was just the easiest comp for zergs to end the game with. Looking at the games themselves, you always hear things like the Terran didn't see the early roaches coming, or the Protoss spotted the muta switch too late, etc. You almost never hear that about Zerg. Because in the early/mid game, they pretty much know everything their opponent is doing and thus can either punish them or be as greedy as possible. Zerg pretty much dictation the pace and flow of the game. They also have so much map control once speed lings are out. Creep spread also gives them so much vision.
Zergs has always been the most 'reactive' race in that they can switch their composition the easiest. If terrans start their Viking production only after seeing 4 colossi, there is no way they will have them in time, this is not true for Zerg. They can build 8-10 corruptor in one round.. And with the queen/OL buff, they have all the early game intel while denying the opponents.
So I think in order to have a 'balance' game, we actually have to make Zerg end game the weakest because even if the late game army were even, the zergs still carry too much of an advantage from the early and mid game. And I don't think that is good design.
Rather, we should look the early and mid game and see what can be done to give the other 2 races better counter/scouting. IMO, early roaches are too good vs Terran. You basically have to blindly build marauders or the roaches WILL do damage. But if you overbuild them and Zerg went lings, you will not be able to move out at all. Terrans need more reliable scouting besides having to waste 540 minerals on 2 scans. No, infestor/BL is definitely the issue. It doesn't have to do with ease, it has to do with effectiveness. Because Zergs, if they can get to infestor/BL even if they were at a massive disadvantage early/mid game, can still win. I've seen engagements where maxed armies engage, and the Terran didn't kill a SINGLE UNIT that cost minerals from the Zerg. It was at a LAN I was at and it happened to Select, where he couldn't do shit. We've seen COUNTLESS times where a Zerg who's been behind can survive til that composition, then roll the other side. There's no question that infestor/BL is the biggest issue tbh.
That's complete bullshit. Give me equal amount of bases and an even economy/infrastructure progression, and I don't give a fork about how many infestors/broodlords you make. Shittiest viking/bio composition is decent in a good position, mech is straightup solid, and the more air you have the better you'll do.
Problem is, 95%, zerg's ease of scouting, ease of reacting, and ease of defense. Add to this the "creep-minigame" that also gives zerg inevitability for no real reason OR cost, outside of people having to admit "yeah, when we said some things, we were wrong as shit".
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That nerf hurts quite a lot, but that gets the job done eh? I'm pretty sure it will. Moving forrrrwarrrrrd and away from infestor bitching, I hope 
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On January 13 2013 06:57 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2013 06:43 vthree wrote:On January 13 2013 06:37 FabledIntegral wrote:On January 13 2013 06:30 vthree wrote:
Honestly, during the past few days. I am starting to think that infestors/BL isn't even the core of the problem.
I think that after the queen patch, zerg early and mid game is just too strong. And it just snowballs from that point. Infestor/BL was just the easiest comp for zergs to end the game with. Looking at the games themselves, you always hear things like the Terran didn't see the early roaches coming, or the Protoss spotted the muta switch too late, etc. You almost never hear that about Zerg. Because in the early/mid game, they pretty much know everything their opponent is doing and thus can either punish them or be as greedy as possible. Zerg pretty much dictation the pace and flow of the game. They also have so much map control once speed lings are out. Creep spread also gives them so much vision.
Zergs has always been the most 'reactive' race in that they can switch their composition the easiest. If terrans start their Viking production only after seeing 4 colossi, there is no way they will have them in time, this is not true for Zerg. They can build 8-10 corruptor in one round.. And with the queen/OL buff, they have all the early game intel while denying the opponents.
So I think in order to have a 'balance' game, we actually have to make Zerg end game the weakest because even if the late game army were even, the zergs still carry too much of an advantage from the early and mid game. And I don't think that is good design.
Rather, we should look the early and mid game and see what can be done to give the other 2 races better counter/scouting. IMO, early roaches are too good vs Terran. You basically have to blindly build marauders or the roaches WILL do damage. But if you overbuild them and Zerg went lings, you will not be able to move out at all. Terrans need more reliable scouting besides having to waste 540 minerals on 2 scans. No, infestor/BL is definitely the issue. It doesn't have to do with ease, it has to do with effectiveness. Because Zergs, if they can get to infestor/BL even if they were at a massive disadvantage early/mid game, can still win. I've seen engagements where maxed armies engage, and the Terran didn't kill a SINGLE UNIT that cost minerals from the Zerg. It was at a LAN I was at and it happened to Select, where he couldn't do shit. We've seen COUNTLESS times where a Zerg who's been behind can survive til that composition, then roll the other side. There's no question that infestor/BL is the biggest issue tbh. Like I said, infestor/BL are the strongest end game comp for sure. But we have seen roach/hydra ZvT from Stephano, ling bling ultra from Symbol, mass mutas from Shine (PL). In your example, the Zerg was behind and needed infestor/BL. But zergs only get behind if they take a poor engagements. If you see the top zergs play now, they are almost never behind and pretty much dictate everything their opponent does. It just doesn't make sense for the race that can adapt their comp the fastest to have the best early game scouting, map control, map vision. You can't switch between roach/hydra and something else though. It's not easy to switch out of mass muta either. I mean, the production is easy, but the viability isn't there. I don't see anything wrong with what you mentioned. We saw Stephano win with Roach/Hydra... so what? Are you saying that he shouldn't have won that game? Are you saying that Zergs shouldn't win with ling/bling/ultra? I understand what you're saying midgame - but the other races can still hold their own. The issue is that the other races cannot hold their own vs Infestor/BL.
What I am trying to say is that if both sides don't make big mistakes, zergs almost always come out ahead in the mid game. And I used the Stephano/Symbol/muta example because zergs have been saying they NEED infestors in the late game when that might not be the case at all.
And no, I don't think Terrans hold their own against Zerg in the mid game (top Terran vs top Zerg). They SURVIVE in the mid game but can't even put on pressure. I have seen countless sieged positions get taken out with equal sized armies. Basically, if the Terran is caught unsieged, he is just screwed and will lose the game. If the Terran is sieged, the trades are about even. Isn't there something wrong with that?
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On January 13 2013 06:58 n0ise wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2013 06:37 FabledIntegral wrote:On January 13 2013 06:30 vthree wrote:
Honestly, during the past few days. I am starting to think that infestors/BL isn't even the core of the problem.
I think that after the queen patch, zerg early and mid game is just too strong. And it just snowballs from that point. Infestor/BL was just the easiest comp for zergs to end the game with. Looking at the games themselves, you always hear things like the Terran didn't see the early roaches coming, or the Protoss spotted the muta switch too late, etc. You almost never hear that about Zerg. Because in the early/mid game, they pretty much know everything their opponent is doing and thus can either punish them or be as greedy as possible. Zerg pretty much dictation the pace and flow of the game. They also have so much map control once speed lings are out. Creep spread also gives them so much vision.
Zergs has always been the most 'reactive' race in that they can switch their composition the easiest. If terrans start their Viking production only after seeing 4 colossi, there is no way they will have them in time, this is not true for Zerg. They can build 8-10 corruptor in one round.. And with the queen/OL buff, they have all the early game intel while denying the opponents.
So I think in order to have a 'balance' game, we actually have to make Zerg end game the weakest because even if the late game army were even, the zergs still carry too much of an advantage from the early and mid game. And I don't think that is good design.
Rather, we should look the early and mid game and see what can be done to give the other 2 races better counter/scouting. IMO, early roaches are too good vs Terran. You basically have to blindly build marauders or the roaches WILL do damage. But if you overbuild them and Zerg went lings, you will not be able to move out at all. Terrans need more reliable scouting besides having to waste 540 minerals on 2 scans. No, infestor/BL is definitely the issue. It doesn't have to do with ease, it has to do with effectiveness. Because Zergs, if they can get to infestor/BL even if they were at a massive disadvantage early/mid game, can still win. I've seen engagements where maxed armies engage, and the Terran didn't kill a SINGLE UNIT that cost minerals from the Zerg. It was at a LAN I was at and it happened to Select, where he couldn't do shit. We've seen COUNTLESS times where a Zerg who's been behind can survive til that composition, then roll the other side. There's no question that infestor/BL is the biggest issue tbh. That's complete bullshit. Give me equal amount of bases and an even economy/infrastructure progression, and I don't give a fork about how many infestors/broodlords you make. Shittiest viking/bio composition is decent in a good position, mech is straightup solid, and the more air you have the better you'll do. Problem is, 95%, zerg's ease of scouting, ease of reacting, and ease of defense. Add to this the "creep-minigame" that also gives zerg inevitability for no real reason OR cost, outside of people having to admit "yeah, when we said some things, we were wrong as shit".
Then you're one of the only. Most top tier Terrans will fall on equal bases to BL/Infestor.
On January 13 2013 07:04 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2013 06:57 FabledIntegral wrote:On January 13 2013 06:43 vthree wrote:On January 13 2013 06:37 FabledIntegral wrote:On January 13 2013 06:30 vthree wrote:
Honestly, during the past few days. I am starting to think that infestors/BL isn't even the core of the problem.
I think that after the queen patch, zerg early and mid game is just too strong. And it just snowballs from that point. Infestor/BL was just the easiest comp for zergs to end the game with. Looking at the games themselves, you always hear things like the Terran didn't see the early roaches coming, or the Protoss spotted the muta switch too late, etc. You almost never hear that about Zerg. Because in the early/mid game, they pretty much know everything their opponent is doing and thus can either punish them or be as greedy as possible. Zerg pretty much dictation the pace and flow of the game. They also have so much map control once speed lings are out. Creep spread also gives them so much vision.
Zergs has always been the most 'reactive' race in that they can switch their composition the easiest. If terrans start their Viking production only after seeing 4 colossi, there is no way they will have them in time, this is not true for Zerg. They can build 8-10 corruptor in one round.. And with the queen/OL buff, they have all the early game intel while denying the opponents.
So I think in order to have a 'balance' game, we actually have to make Zerg end game the weakest because even if the late game army were even, the zergs still carry too much of an advantage from the early and mid game. And I don't think that is good design.
Rather, we should look the early and mid game and see what can be done to give the other 2 races better counter/scouting. IMO, early roaches are too good vs Terran. You basically have to blindly build marauders or the roaches WILL do damage. But if you overbuild them and Zerg went lings, you will not be able to move out at all. Terrans need more reliable scouting besides having to waste 540 minerals on 2 scans. No, infestor/BL is definitely the issue. It doesn't have to do with ease, it has to do with effectiveness. Because Zergs, if they can get to infestor/BL even if they were at a massive disadvantage early/mid game, can still win. I've seen engagements where maxed armies engage, and the Terran didn't kill a SINGLE UNIT that cost minerals from the Zerg. It was at a LAN I was at and it happened to Select, where he couldn't do shit. We've seen COUNTLESS times where a Zerg who's been behind can survive til that composition, then roll the other side. There's no question that infestor/BL is the biggest issue tbh. Like I said, infestor/BL are the strongest end game comp for sure. But we have seen roach/hydra ZvT from Stephano, ling bling ultra from Symbol, mass mutas from Shine (PL). In your example, the Zerg was behind and needed infestor/BL. But zergs only get behind if they take a poor engagements. If you see the top zergs play now, they are almost never behind and pretty much dictate everything their opponent does. It just doesn't make sense for the race that can adapt their comp the fastest to have the best early game scouting, map control, map vision. You can't switch between roach/hydra and something else though. It's not easy to switch out of mass muta either. I mean, the production is easy, but the viability isn't there. I don't see anything wrong with what you mentioned. We saw Stephano win with Roach/Hydra... so what? Are you saying that he shouldn't have won that game? Are you saying that Zergs shouldn't win with ling/bling/ultra? I understand what you're saying midgame - but the other races can still hold their own. The issue is that the other races cannot hold their own vs Infestor/BL. What I am trying to say is that if both sides don't make big mistakes, zergs almost always come out ahead in the mid game. And I used the Stephano/Symbol/muta example because zergs have been saying they NEED infestors in the late game when that might not be the case at all. And no, I don't think Terrans hold their own against Zerg in the mid game (top Terran vs top Zerg). They SURVIVE in the mid game but can't even put on pressure. I have seen countless sieged positions get taken out with equal sized armies. Basically, if the Terran is caught unsieged, he is just screwed and will lose the game. If the Terran is sieged, the trades are about even. Isn't there something wrong with that?
Oh ok, I've never believed that Zergs would be crippled w/o infestors, so maybe that's where the confusion is.
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No close positions entombed and antiga?
Now 30% of my games aren't instant losses! Woohoo!
But seriously, I wish these changes happened earlier. Either way, I'm very happy that they're listening to the community and doing what's been asked of them! Sure, it's a little late, but better late than never!
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On January 13 2013 07:13 Mavvie wrote:No close positions entombed and antiga? Now 30% of my games aren't instant losses! Woohoo! But seriously, I wish these changes happened earlier. Either way, I'm very happy that they're listening to the community and doing what's been asked of them! Sure, it's a little late, but better late than never!
lol I think that vertical positions in ZvT is significantly better for Zerg than cross :S. Cross favors Terran imo. :S.
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I wish they would only make fungal root on creep. That way zerg maintains defensive capacity, avoids zvz mutawar while especially terran doesnt have to babysit the army all the damn time or its gg.
It could be a slow beyond creep.
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It's good to think about ways to solve problems, but it's also good to sometimes try to figure out the reasons why they appeared.
A lot of people mentionned the Queen range buff.
I would like to mention the myths of Zerg cost-unefectiveness and need of an OP infestor to stand a chance against Terran/Protoss. In fact, these are the 2 faces of the same "troll coin", since Zerg has now the most bases and the best macro capabilities coupled with the most cost-effective unit of the game.
They are a lot of other Zerg myths as well, like the inability of putting pressure on Terran/Protoss, the lack of all-ins...
Pretty much all of them have been made up and propagated by horrible Zerg foreigners of the past.
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sooo blizzard's approach to the stagnating map pool is to make all maps have two spawns only?
stellar decision, as always!
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On January 13 2013 07:26 SiroKO wrote:
It's good to think about ways to solve problems, but it's also good to sometimes try to figure out the reasons why they appeared.
A lot of people mentionned the Queen range buff.
I would like to mention the myths of Zerg cost-unefectiveness and need of an OP infestor to stand a chance against Terran/Protoss. In fact, these are the 2 faces of the same "troll coin", since Zerg has now the most bases and the best macro capabilities coupled with the most cost-effective unit of the game.
Yup, I don't think the units are the core problem (unless you make Zerg late game super weak). The problem is that zergs can cut all the corners while punishing the Terran or Protoss cutting corners. They just have too much info (while denying info) in the early mid game.
They can always build the optimal amount of units/drones. That is why the sentry immortal is so good. Because there is no composition from Zerg that just crushes it with ease. It comes down to execution (and maps play a role).
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On January 13 2013 07:13 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2013 06:58 n0ise wrote:On January 13 2013 06:37 FabledIntegral wrote:On January 13 2013 06:30 vthree wrote:
Honestly, during the past few days. I am starting to think that infestors/BL isn't even the core of the problem.
I think that after the queen patch, zerg early and mid game is just too strong. And it just snowballs from that point. Infestor/BL was just the easiest comp for zergs to end the game with. Looking at the games themselves, you always hear things like the Terran didn't see the early roaches coming, or the Protoss spotted the muta switch too late, etc. You almost never hear that about Zerg. Because in the early/mid game, they pretty much know everything their opponent is doing and thus can either punish them or be as greedy as possible. Zerg pretty much dictation the pace and flow of the game. They also have so much map control once speed lings are out. Creep spread also gives them so much vision.
Zergs has always been the most 'reactive' race in that they can switch their composition the easiest. If terrans start their Viking production only after seeing 4 colossi, there is no way they will have them in time, this is not true for Zerg. They can build 8-10 corruptor in one round.. And with the queen/OL buff, they have all the early game intel while denying the opponents.
So I think in order to have a 'balance' game, we actually have to make Zerg end game the weakest because even if the late game army were even, the zergs still carry too much of an advantage from the early and mid game. And I don't think that is good design.
Rather, we should look the early and mid game and see what can be done to give the other 2 races better counter/scouting. IMO, early roaches are too good vs Terran. You basically have to blindly build marauders or the roaches WILL do damage. But if you overbuild them and Zerg went lings, you will not be able to move out at all. Terrans need more reliable scouting besides having to waste 540 minerals on 2 scans. No, infestor/BL is definitely the issue. It doesn't have to do with ease, it has to do with effectiveness. Because Zergs, if they can get to infestor/BL even if they were at a massive disadvantage early/mid game, can still win. I've seen engagements where maxed armies engage, and the Terran didn't kill a SINGLE UNIT that cost minerals from the Zerg. It was at a LAN I was at and it happened to Select, where he couldn't do shit. We've seen COUNTLESS times where a Zerg who's been behind can survive til that composition, then roll the other side. There's no question that infestor/BL is the biggest issue tbh. That's complete bullshit. Give me equal amount of bases and an even economy/infrastructure progression, and I don't give a fork about how many infestors/broodlords you make. Shittiest viking/bio composition is decent in a good position, mech is straightup solid, and the more air you have the better you'll do. Problem is, 95%, zerg's ease of scouting, ease of reacting, and ease of defense. Add to this the "creep-minigame" that also gives zerg inevitability for no real reason OR cost, outside of people having to admit "yeah, when we said some things, we were wrong as shit". Then you're one of the only. Most top tier Terrans will fall on equal bases to BL/Infestor. Show nested quote +On January 13 2013 07:04 vthree wrote:On January 13 2013 06:57 FabledIntegral wrote:On January 13 2013 06:43 vthree wrote:On January 13 2013 06:37 FabledIntegral wrote:On January 13 2013 06:30 vthree wrote:
Honestly, during the past few days. I am starting to think that infestors/BL isn't even the core of the problem.
I think that after the queen patch, zerg early and mid game is just too strong. And it just snowballs from that point. Infestor/BL was just the easiest comp for zergs to end the game with. Looking at the games themselves, you always hear things like the Terran didn't see the early roaches coming, or the Protoss spotted the muta switch too late, etc. You almost never hear that about Zerg. Because in the early/mid game, they pretty much know everything their opponent is doing and thus can either punish them or be as greedy as possible. Zerg pretty much dictation the pace and flow of the game. They also have so much map control once speed lings are out. Creep spread also gives them so much vision.
Zergs has always been the most 'reactive' race in that they can switch their composition the easiest. If terrans start their Viking production only after seeing 4 colossi, there is no way they will have them in time, this is not true for Zerg. They can build 8-10 corruptor in one round.. And with the queen/OL buff, they have all the early game intel while denying the opponents.
So I think in order to have a 'balance' game, we actually have to make Zerg end game the weakest because even if the late game army were even, the zergs still carry too much of an advantage from the early and mid game. And I don't think that is good design.
Rather, we should look the early and mid game and see what can be done to give the other 2 races better counter/scouting. IMO, early roaches are too good vs Terran. You basically have to blindly build marauders or the roaches WILL do damage. But if you overbuild them and Zerg went lings, you will not be able to move out at all. Terrans need more reliable scouting besides having to waste 540 minerals on 2 scans. No, infestor/BL is definitely the issue. It doesn't have to do with ease, it has to do with effectiveness. Because Zergs, if they can get to infestor/BL even if they were at a massive disadvantage early/mid game, can still win. I've seen engagements where maxed armies engage, and the Terran didn't kill a SINGLE UNIT that cost minerals from the Zerg. It was at a LAN I was at and it happened to Select, where he couldn't do shit. We've seen COUNTLESS times where a Zerg who's been behind can survive til that composition, then roll the other side. There's no question that infestor/BL is the biggest issue tbh. Like I said, infestor/BL are the strongest end game comp for sure. But we have seen roach/hydra ZvT from Stephano, ling bling ultra from Symbol, mass mutas from Shine (PL). In your example, the Zerg was behind and needed infestor/BL. But zergs only get behind if they take a poor engagements. If you see the top zergs play now, they are almost never behind and pretty much dictate everything their opponent does. It just doesn't make sense for the race that can adapt their comp the fastest to have the best early game scouting, map control, map vision. You can't switch between roach/hydra and something else though. It's not easy to switch out of mass muta either. I mean, the production is easy, but the viability isn't there. I don't see anything wrong with what you mentioned. We saw Stephano win with Roach/Hydra... so what? Are you saying that he shouldn't have won that game? Are you saying that Zergs shouldn't win with ling/bling/ultra? I understand what you're saying midgame - but the other races can still hold their own. The issue is that the other races cannot hold their own vs Infestor/BL. What I am trying to say is that if both sides don't make big mistakes, zergs almost always come out ahead in the mid game. And I used the Stephano/Symbol/muta example because zergs have been saying they NEED infestors in the late game when that might not be the case at all. And no, I don't think Terrans hold their own against Zerg in the mid game (top Terran vs top Zerg). They SURVIVE in the mid game but can't even put on pressure. I have seen countless sieged positions get taken out with equal sized armies. Basically, if the Terran is caught unsieged, he is just screwed and will lose the game. If the Terran is sieged, the trades are about even. Isn't there something wrong with that? Oh ok, I've never believed that Zergs would be crippled w/o infestors, so maybe that's where the confusion is.
My point was, if SCVs were to mine 3 times more gas and minerals and you would lose to mass battlecruisers on 2-bases, the problem wouldn't be that you can't deal with battlecruisers and they need to be nerfed.
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On January 13 2013 07:14 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2013 07:13 Mavvie wrote:No close positions entombed and antiga? Now 30% of my games aren't instant losses! Woohoo! But seriously, I wish these changes happened earlier. Either way, I'm very happy that they're listening to the community and doing what's been asked of them! Sure, it's a little late, but better late than never! lol I think that vertical positions in ZvT is significantly better for Zerg than cross :S. Cross favors Terran imo. :S.
True, I honestly don't mind Antiga that much. Just when you spawn counterclockwise you might as well leave the game, toss don't even need to secure a proxy pylon, and Terrans can siege your third from their main. But again, my winrate's decent on the map so I can't really complain. More about entombed, hate that map with close by ground spawns so much >_>
In fact, I lost to the worst sentry/immortal push ever because he was basically in a choke from when he left his base to when he killed mine.
Whatever, all is fixed now
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On January 13 2013 07:30 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2013 07:26 SiroKO wrote:
It's good to think about ways to solve problems, but it's also good to sometimes try to figure out the reasons why they appeared.
A lot of people mentionned the Queen range buff.
I would like to mention the myths of Zerg cost-unefectiveness and need of an OP infestor to stand a chance against Terran/Protoss. In fact, these are the 2 faces of the same "troll coin", since Zerg has now the most bases and the best macro capabilities coupled with the most cost-effective unit of the game. Yup, I don't think the units are the core problem (unless you make Zerg late game super weak). The problem is that zergs can cut all the corners while punishing the Terran or Protoss cutting corners. They just have too much info (while denying info) in the early mid game. They can always build the optimal amount of units/drones. That is why the sentry immortal is so good. Because there is no composition from Zerg that just crushes it with ease. It comes down to execution (and maps play a role).
That also has to do with the maps. I still don't know why the fuck every many maps have free scout ledges for zerg. It just doesn't make sense.
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On January 13 2013 07:36 n0ise wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2013 07:13 FabledIntegral wrote:On January 13 2013 06:58 n0ise wrote:On January 13 2013 06:37 FabledIntegral wrote:On January 13 2013 06:30 vthree wrote:
Honestly, during the past few days. I am starting to think that infestors/BL isn't even the core of the problem.
I think that after the queen patch, zerg early and mid game is just too strong. And it just snowballs from that point. Infestor/BL was just the easiest comp for zergs to end the game with. Looking at the games themselves, you always hear things like the Terran didn't see the early roaches coming, or the Protoss spotted the muta switch too late, etc. You almost never hear that about Zerg. Because in the early/mid game, they pretty much know everything their opponent is doing and thus can either punish them or be as greedy as possible. Zerg pretty much dictation the pace and flow of the game. They also have so much map control once speed lings are out. Creep spread also gives them so much vision.
Zergs has always been the most 'reactive' race in that they can switch their composition the easiest. If terrans start their Viking production only after seeing 4 colossi, there is no way they will have them in time, this is not true for Zerg. They can build 8-10 corruptor in one round.. And with the queen/OL buff, they have all the early game intel while denying the opponents.
So I think in order to have a 'balance' game, we actually have to make Zerg end game the weakest because even if the late game army were even, the zergs still carry too much of an advantage from the early and mid game. And I don't think that is good design.
Rather, we should look the early and mid game and see what can be done to give the other 2 races better counter/scouting. IMO, early roaches are too good vs Terran. You basically have to blindly build marauders or the roaches WILL do damage. But if you overbuild them and Zerg went lings, you will not be able to move out at all. Terrans need more reliable scouting besides having to waste 540 minerals on 2 scans. No, infestor/BL is definitely the issue. It doesn't have to do with ease, it has to do with effectiveness. Because Zergs, if they can get to infestor/BL even if they were at a massive disadvantage early/mid game, can still win. I've seen engagements where maxed armies engage, and the Terran didn't kill a SINGLE UNIT that cost minerals from the Zerg. It was at a LAN I was at and it happened to Select, where he couldn't do shit. We've seen COUNTLESS times where a Zerg who's been behind can survive til that composition, then roll the other side. There's no question that infestor/BL is the biggest issue tbh. That's complete bullshit. Give me equal amount of bases and an even economy/infrastructure progression, and I don't give a fork about how many infestors/broodlords you make. Shittiest viking/bio composition is decent in a good position, mech is straightup solid, and the more air you have the better you'll do. Problem is, 95%, zerg's ease of scouting, ease of reacting, and ease of defense. Add to this the "creep-minigame" that also gives zerg inevitability for no real reason OR cost, outside of people having to admit "yeah, when we said some things, we were wrong as shit". Then you're one of the only. Most top tier Terrans will fall on equal bases to BL/Infestor. On January 13 2013 07:04 vthree wrote:On January 13 2013 06:57 FabledIntegral wrote:On January 13 2013 06:43 vthree wrote:On January 13 2013 06:37 FabledIntegral wrote:On January 13 2013 06:30 vthree wrote:
Honestly, during the past few days. I am starting to think that infestors/BL isn't even the core of the problem.
I think that after the queen patch, zerg early and mid game is just too strong. And it just snowballs from that point. Infestor/BL was just the easiest comp for zergs to end the game with. Looking at the games themselves, you always hear things like the Terran didn't see the early roaches coming, or the Protoss spotted the muta switch too late, etc. You almost never hear that about Zerg. Because in the early/mid game, they pretty much know everything their opponent is doing and thus can either punish them or be as greedy as possible. Zerg pretty much dictation the pace and flow of the game. They also have so much map control once speed lings are out. Creep spread also gives them so much vision.
Zergs has always been the most 'reactive' race in that they can switch their composition the easiest. If terrans start their Viking production only after seeing 4 colossi, there is no way they will have them in time, this is not true for Zerg. They can build 8-10 corruptor in one round.. And with the queen/OL buff, they have all the early game intel while denying the opponents.
So I think in order to have a 'balance' game, we actually have to make Zerg end game the weakest because even if the late game army were even, the zergs still carry too much of an advantage from the early and mid game. And I don't think that is good design.
Rather, we should look the early and mid game and see what can be done to give the other 2 races better counter/scouting. IMO, early roaches are too good vs Terran. You basically have to blindly build marauders or the roaches WILL do damage. But if you overbuild them and Zerg went lings, you will not be able to move out at all. Terrans need more reliable scouting besides having to waste 540 minerals on 2 scans. No, infestor/BL is definitely the issue. It doesn't have to do with ease, it has to do with effectiveness. Because Zergs, if they can get to infestor/BL even if they were at a massive disadvantage early/mid game, can still win. I've seen engagements where maxed armies engage, and the Terran didn't kill a SINGLE UNIT that cost minerals from the Zerg. It was at a LAN I was at and it happened to Select, where he couldn't do shit. We've seen COUNTLESS times where a Zerg who's been behind can survive til that composition, then roll the other side. There's no question that infestor/BL is the biggest issue tbh. Like I said, infestor/BL are the strongest end game comp for sure. But we have seen roach/hydra ZvT from Stephano, ling bling ultra from Symbol, mass mutas from Shine (PL). In your example, the Zerg was behind and needed infestor/BL. But zergs only get behind if they take a poor engagements. If you see the top zergs play now, they are almost never behind and pretty much dictate everything their opponent does. It just doesn't make sense for the race that can adapt their comp the fastest to have the best early game scouting, map control, map vision. You can't switch between roach/hydra and something else though. It's not easy to switch out of mass muta either. I mean, the production is easy, but the viability isn't there. I don't see anything wrong with what you mentioned. We saw Stephano win with Roach/Hydra... so what? Are you saying that he shouldn't have won that game? Are you saying that Zergs shouldn't win with ling/bling/ultra? I understand what you're saying midgame - but the other races can still hold their own. The issue is that the other races cannot hold their own vs Infestor/BL. What I am trying to say is that if both sides don't make big mistakes, zergs almost always come out ahead in the mid game. And I used the Stephano/Symbol/muta example because zergs have been saying they NEED infestors in the late game when that might not be the case at all. And no, I don't think Terrans hold their own against Zerg in the mid game (top Terran vs top Zerg). They SURVIVE in the mid game but can't even put on pressure. I have seen countless sieged positions get taken out with equal sized armies. Basically, if the Terran is caught unsieged, he is just screwed and will lose the game. If the Terran is sieged, the trades are about even. Isn't there something wrong with that? Oh ok, I've never believed that Zergs would be crippled w/o infestors, so maybe that's where the confusion is. My point was, if SCVs were to mine 3 times more gas and minerals and you would lose to mass battlecruisers on 2-bases, the problem wouldn't be that you can't deal with battlecruisers and they need to be nerfed.
Yup, I don't think the Terran has a problem if it is equal bases. And by equal, I mean that the bases are put up at the same time and saturated at the same time. Equal bases does not mean Terran does 3 base push which kills the 4th of zerg(which has been mining for some time) and Zerg kills terrans while still on 3 bases and retaking his fourth.
Even of both Zerg and Terran go for fast third, the Zerg can saturated their 3rd so much faster and then make enough army to take a fourth. Yes, Terran can build quick 3 CC, but if the Zerg plays aggressive, that 3rd CC can't land for a long long time.
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