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i wonder how zerg players will be able to hold 3 bases all in with such a nerf. it's already so hard...
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Exactly certain 3 base timings will become near impossible to hold if you just make 1 mistake.
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On January 11 2013 15:06 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2013 13:20 ikh wrote:On January 11 2013 13:10 FabledIntegral wrote:On January 11 2013 13:07 ikh wrote:On January 11 2013 13:03 FabledIntegral wrote:
Honestly, I really like IT being a little on the "too much" side. SC2 needs things like that. while i certainly would agree with that statement to an extent, do you think infested terrans offer potential for interesting gameplay? i would argue it's an even more boring skill than fungal growth is, i have not once seen myself go "wow, those are some really nice infested terrans! yowch!" and i really can't imagine that happening any time soon. that's the kind of skill i would argue could/should be situationally powerful, but definitely not race defining or "too much". I think it offers a ton of depth in how they are used. They draw fire. They have a delay in how long it takes to spawn. It requires a ton of effort to spam a bunch at once (which could be used elsewhere), so you have to decide if it's worth it. At the same time it leads into queing them up having a bunch more potential, which is decision making, and they can be used when infestors are burrowed, adding depth to burrow play. On the flip side, it forces a decision out of your opponent. Do I engage the IT? If I just move away, the IT will die from limited time. But we all know it's not that simple, sometimes you need to engage, sometimes you've committed, sometimes you need to save a CC from burning down, sometimes you simply can't retreat due to Zerg's other units. IT offer a lot more to the game than people give it credit for. I can't imagine how you can think fungal is more interesting. quite easily, but then again, agree to disagree. the part about infested terran spam taking mechanical effort, that's not true at all as long as you have a scroll wheel on your mouse. instant energy dump if that's what you want. not sure what the official stance on that is in tournaments though, heard both that it's legit and forbidden. even so, i would not exactly agree that it takes a ton of effort, or even a decent amount of it, to IT energy dump normally. i can click something like 10-15 times per second easily, that's 250-375 energy used per second. and i'm far from a professional 5000apm korean. (e: 100 clicks in 7,5 seconds with maybe 60 of em in the first 3,5) from a spectator perspective, i don't know if anyone could watch some of the infestor heavy endgame zvz's and not go "wow, this is some bullshit" and alt-tabbing away when (almost) all that happens is mountains of IT colliding until the game ends . this coming from someone who has never thought anything of the sort about like any game ever as far as i can recall. i don't think fungal at its current form is an interesting skill, but i think it's possible to balance it to not be a boring one. either by tweaking the numbers or by more drastically changing how it works. infested terrans, not so much. Scroll wheel isn't allowed in any tournament because there's no way to naturally set the scroll bar as a key. Maybe if you're talking about a local LAN.... but it's not really relevant and I don't seem to encounter many players on ladder that do it anyways. I'm not really taking that into consideration. If people want to go around the rules because they can.... kinda hard to stop. It's remotely akin to maphacking.
this i was not familiar with. doesn't change that spamming infested terrans the normal way is far from time or micro intensive, two seconds should be more than enough to a professional player to get their shit done in almost any situation imaginable. at the same time ITs can be used effectively from a very long range and they (can) effectively provide a wall of defense. i'm open to entertain the idea of infested terrans being difficult to use, but i'd be surprised if any other readers of this thread would ditto you if that's what you're saying.
End game ZvZ is indeed garbage but it's the least likely of the ZvX MUs to go there. And honestly if fungal were nerfed enough you wouldn't mass that many infestors in the first place to eventually use IT.... so that point is kinda moot haha.
it's actually a pretty important point when we're talking about the inherent possibilities of strategic depth and gameplay diversity offered by a single skill, which i claimed are close to nonexistent to support my opinion of infested terrans being a horrible skill to define zerg strategically. which was a response to you saying you liked the fact that they were "too much". ignoring this by adding an "if" is not a way to carry a discussion.
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Adding a ½-1s gap where units cannot be re-fungalled seems like an option too. At least for PvZ! But their suggested fix is good as well, since a shitton infested terrans can be spawned all the time with enough infestors. no armor/damage boost makes it somewhat easier to deal with.
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On January 11 2013 15:25 ikh wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2013 15:06 FabledIntegral wrote:On January 11 2013 13:20 ikh wrote:On January 11 2013 13:10 FabledIntegral wrote:On January 11 2013 13:07 ikh wrote:On January 11 2013 13:03 FabledIntegral wrote:
Honestly, I really like IT being a little on the "too much" side. SC2 needs things like that. while i certainly would agree with that statement to an extent, do you think infested terrans offer potential for interesting gameplay? i would argue it's an even more boring skill than fungal growth is, i have not once seen myself go "wow, those are some really nice infested terrans! yowch!" and i really can't imagine that happening any time soon. that's the kind of skill i would argue could/should be situationally powerful, but definitely not race defining or "too much". I think it offers a ton of depth in how they are used. They draw fire. They have a delay in how long it takes to spawn. It requires a ton of effort to spam a bunch at once (which could be used elsewhere), so you have to decide if it's worth it. At the same time it leads into queing them up having a bunch more potential, which is decision making, and they can be used when infestors are burrowed, adding depth to burrow play. On the flip side, it forces a decision out of your opponent. Do I engage the IT? If I just move away, the IT will die from limited time. But we all know it's not that simple, sometimes you need to engage, sometimes you've committed, sometimes you need to save a CC from burning down, sometimes you simply can't retreat due to Zerg's other units. IT offer a lot more to the game than people give it credit for. I can't imagine how you can think fungal is more interesting. quite easily, but then again, agree to disagree. the part about infested terran spam taking mechanical effort, that's not true at all as long as you have a scroll wheel on your mouse. instant energy dump if that's what you want. not sure what the official stance on that is in tournaments though, heard both that it's legit and forbidden. even so, i would not exactly agree that it takes a ton of effort, or even a decent amount of it, to IT energy dump normally. i can click something like 10-15 times per second easily, that's 250-375 energy used per second. and i'm far from a professional 5000apm korean. (e: 100 clicks in 7,5 seconds with maybe 60 of em in the first 3,5) from a spectator perspective, i don't know if anyone could watch some of the infestor heavy endgame zvz's and not go "wow, this is some bullshit" and alt-tabbing away when (almost) all that happens is mountains of IT colliding until the game ends . this coming from someone who has never thought anything of the sort about like any game ever as far as i can recall. i don't think fungal at its current form is an interesting skill, but i think it's possible to balance it to not be a boring one. either by tweaking the numbers or by more drastically changing how it works. infested terrans, not so much. Scroll wheel isn't allowed in any tournament because there's no way to naturally set the scroll bar as a key. Maybe if you're talking about a local LAN.... but it's not really relevant and I don't seem to encounter many players on ladder that do it anyways. I'm not really taking that into consideration. If people want to go around the rules because they can.... kinda hard to stop. It's remotely akin to maphacking. this i was not familiar with. doesn't change that spamming infested terrans the normal way is far from time or micro intensive, two seconds should be more than enough to a professional player to get their shit done in almost any situation imaginable. at the same time ITs can be used effectively from a very long range and they (can) effectively provide a wall of defense. i'm open to entertain the idea of infested terrans being difficult to use, but i'd be surprised if any other readers of this thread would ditto you if that's what you're saying. Show nested quote +End game ZvZ is indeed garbage but it's the least likely of the ZvX MUs to go there. And honestly if fungal were nerfed enough you wouldn't mass that many infestors in the first place to eventually use IT.... so that point is kinda moot haha. it's actually a pretty important point when we're talking about the inherent possibilities of strategic depth and gameplay diversity offered by a single skill, which i claimed are close to nonexistent to support my opinion of infested terrans being a horrible skill to define zerg strategically. which was a response to you saying you liked the fact that they were "too much". ignoring this by adding an "if" is not a way to carry a discussion.
Spamming IT is incredibly time consuming, takes far more than 2 seconds to accomplish, and can be used for many tactical purposes, especially with infestor burrowed play.
I'm not saying they are hard to use necessarily. I'm saying they add some depth to the game, at least relatively to fungal. The different ways in which they can be utilized add a lot more than you're giving them credit for, in the ways I outlined in my previous post. They have tons of various different utility and force decision making, choices, harassment opportunities, etc. Fungal generally does not do this. IT adds more depth than the vast majority of spells, I can't really see your points here.
Concerning ZvZ, its' simply a rare occurrence (although admittedly getting less rare). Is it still an issue? Absolutely. I meant it was a moot point because I assumed we were already accepting the premise that the infestor is getting nerfed due to this thread. If it is, whether fungal or IT gets nerfed, it will directly nerf infestors in ZvZ, meaning that in both situations at least the IT spam will get somewhat toned down.
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On January 11 2013 15:41 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2013 15:25 ikh wrote:On January 11 2013 15:06 FabledIntegral wrote:On January 11 2013 13:20 ikh wrote:On January 11 2013 13:10 FabledIntegral wrote:On January 11 2013 13:07 ikh wrote:On January 11 2013 13:03 FabledIntegral wrote:
Honestly, I really like IT being a little on the "too much" side. SC2 needs things like that. while i certainly would agree with that statement to an extent, do you think infested terrans offer potential for interesting gameplay? i would argue it's an even more boring skill than fungal growth is, i have not once seen myself go "wow, those are some really nice infested terrans! yowch!" and i really can't imagine that happening any time soon. that's the kind of skill i would argue could/should be situationally powerful, but definitely not race defining or "too much". I think it offers a ton of depth in how they are used. They draw fire. They have a delay in how long it takes to spawn. It requires a ton of effort to spam a bunch at once (which could be used elsewhere), so you have to decide if it's worth it. At the same time it leads into queing them up having a bunch more potential, which is decision making, and they can be used when infestors are burrowed, adding depth to burrow play. On the flip side, it forces a decision out of your opponent. Do I engage the IT? If I just move away, the IT will die from limited time. But we all know it's not that simple, sometimes you need to engage, sometimes you've committed, sometimes you need to save a CC from burning down, sometimes you simply can't retreat due to Zerg's other units. IT offer a lot more to the game than people give it credit for. I can't imagine how you can think fungal is more interesting. quite easily, but then again, agree to disagree. the part about infested terran spam taking mechanical effort, that's not true at all as long as you have a scroll wheel on your mouse. instant energy dump if that's what you want. not sure what the official stance on that is in tournaments though, heard both that it's legit and forbidden. even so, i would not exactly agree that it takes a ton of effort, or even a decent amount of it, to IT energy dump normally. i can click something like 10-15 times per second easily, that's 250-375 energy used per second. and i'm far from a professional 5000apm korean. (e: 100 clicks in 7,5 seconds with maybe 60 of em in the first 3,5) from a spectator perspective, i don't know if anyone could watch some of the infestor heavy endgame zvz's and not go "wow, this is some bullshit" and alt-tabbing away when (almost) all that happens is mountains of IT colliding until the game ends . this coming from someone who has never thought anything of the sort about like any game ever as far as i can recall. i don't think fungal at its current form is an interesting skill, but i think it's possible to balance it to not be a boring one. either by tweaking the numbers or by more drastically changing how it works. infested terrans, not so much. Scroll wheel isn't allowed in any tournament because there's no way to naturally set the scroll bar as a key. Maybe if you're talking about a local LAN.... but it's not really relevant and I don't seem to encounter many players on ladder that do it anyways. I'm not really taking that into consideration. If people want to go around the rules because they can.... kinda hard to stop. It's remotely akin to maphacking. this i was not familiar with. doesn't change that spamming infested terrans the normal way is far from time or micro intensive, two seconds should be more than enough to a professional player to get their shit done in almost any situation imaginable. at the same time ITs can be used effectively from a very long range and they (can) effectively provide a wall of defense. i'm open to entertain the idea of infested terrans being difficult to use, but i'd be surprised if any other readers of this thread would ditto you if that's what you're saying. End game ZvZ is indeed garbage but it's the least likely of the ZvX MUs to go there. And honestly if fungal were nerfed enough you wouldn't mass that many infestors in the first place to eventually use IT.... so that point is kinda moot haha. it's actually a pretty important point when we're talking about the inherent possibilities of strategic depth and gameplay diversity offered by a single skill, which i claimed are close to nonexistent to support my opinion of infested terrans being a horrible skill to define zerg strategically. which was a response to you saying you liked the fact that they were "too much". ignoring this by adding an "if" is not a way to carry a discussion. Spamming IT is incredibly time consuming, takes far more than 2 seconds to accomplish, and can be used for many tactical purposes, especially with infestor burrowed play.
that is not exactly a thing you can agree or disagree on without knowing you're right, so i guess that makes two of us that know what's up but are saying the exact opposite.
I'm saying they add some depth to the game, at least relatively to fungal.
and i'm saying the potential of fungal growth being an interesting skill is there when it's balanced properly. i can't see infested terrans ever not being boring as long as they are a defining part of zerg gameplay. again, this is just an argument of yes's and no's from there on out, and i don't think you're really talking about the same thing as i am.
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Infestors without broodlords are a joke, so is it realy the infestor wich is the problem?
Nerving infested terrans isnt going to do much.
It will prevent the base whipe out by buried infestors (cannons should prevent this easily also) but when infestors cast infested terrans in a battle the opponent usually falls back, and then it does not realy matter if the infested have upgrades or not.
Not sure this gonna make a big difference.
Fungal should not hit air, makes no sense to grow fungi up in the air annyway.
Corruptor is good enough anti air, and then also got hydra queen muta and infested terran.
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They're nerfing in the wrong direction. Infested terrans have potential to be interesting, with uses like harass, redirecting tank shots, and providing positional anti-air. Fungal's options are more limited, and far less entertaining to watch.
The HotS projectile helps somewhat, but nobody likes to watch a skillful player get shut down by a simple fungal chain.
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Blizzard are looking directly at infestors because it's convenient and easy to do so.
If you would ask me, I'd say all of Terran T3, Protoss T1/Gateway mechanics and Fungal growth (on its own - lets face it, it's an anti-esports spell) needs a complete reworking but that would be too daunting to Blizzard these days..
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On January 11 2013 16:12 cozzE wrote:
Blizzard are looking directly at infestors because it's convenient and easy to do so.
If you would ask me, I'd say all of Terran T3, Protoss T1/Gateway mechanics and Fungal growth (on its own - lets face it, it's an anti-esports spell) needs a complete reworking but that would be too daunting to Blizzard these days..
Make BW 2.0 execpt with automine, many HotS abilities/units are like BW anyway :I
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This is a silly nerf. ZvT is the only thing that needs fixing right now, and the raven change should have been enough to merit the use of at least 1 raven to prevent infested terran bombs on tanks. Nerfing ITs does almost nothing in the ZvT matchup, while altering ZvZ and ZvP in a manner that seems unnecessary.
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It'll be interesting to see if it does what they want. In my experience of TvZ (low league, but still), infested terrans have not been as much an issue as fungal growth. But if this leads to better competition between the pros, then that is what should be the focus, not changing the game after some newbie like myself.
If this doesn't work, perhaps making the fungal growth cost more energy could be a solution? Watching games with so many fungals is just so very, very dull.
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I'm still waiting for Hydra/Corruptor/Nydus/Muta buff. Remove the Infestor from the game.
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Still think it's weird if something with the tag "unit" doesnt get upgrades.
Would much rather prefer a direct damage nerf like -2 or something along those lines.
Apart from that: right direction, right issue, good job if this goes through
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I always lol at people saying Fungal is an anti-I sport mechanics when FF isn't.
It's a darn good spell you don't like used agains you, that's all. And there is no way for Z to win a 200/200 battle without it. Have you tried to ling bane muta against a 200/200 bio ball/toss ball ? Just does not work. And the reason you don't stay on ling bane muta is that if the player is smart enough, he turtles up to 200/200 and outright kills you.
So a reasonable nerf of Infest or Infest/BL that would target specifically the late game would be appreciated (ie. nerf infest size, population). A nerf changing the mid/mid late game would just kill the Z.
That is why Bli² is struggling right now. IT nerf seems a decent option.
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I wonder if they are going to have a testing this publically on Battle.net
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On January 11 2013 21:19 hfsrj wrote:
I always lol at people saying Fungal is an anti-I sport mechanics when FF isn't.
It's a darn good spell you don't like used agains you, that's all. And there is no way for Z to win a 200/200 battle without it. Have you tried to ling bane muta against a 200/200 bio ball/toss ball ? Just does not work. And the reason you don't stay on ling bane muta is that if the player is smart enough, he turtles up to 200/200 and outright kills you.
So a reasonable nerf of Infest or Infest/BL that would target specifically the late game would be appreciated (ie. nerf infest size, population). A nerf changing the mid/mid late game would just kill the Z.
That is why Bli² is struggling right now. IT nerf seems a decent option.
ling/bling/muta was always about the speed of the units, harassing, catching the opponent out of position. It's not designed to run into a 200/200 army heads on.
I still think making fungal slow, not outright immobilize units would be interesting. It would at least add depth to the micro involved, whereas now people will either use ITs if they're still strong enough, or never use them at all.
I also don't see how only slowing is a problem with mutas in ZvZ, as someone posted earlier.
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EPT
