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And please stop this nonsense about changing fungal to "slow". They're not Sorceresses. Fungal used to have double the time of root effect prior to getting damage buff. No one complained about "root" at that time. imagine that. The whole thing is a difficult mess to sort out because without fungal damage Z had no answer to upgraded mass marines and mass blink stalkers, even with broods or ultras. (Do people forget so easily?)
Besides which, how many units do you think you can save against fast Z units if your units are 50% slowed? How many units can you safely bring back home when you lose a battle and marauders are chasing you? The theorecrafting that people conjure up is simply stunning, for its silliness.
The problem is that with the damage buff of fungals, Z players discovered infested terrans are awesome damage dealers and damage soakers, thus started massing them. Changing infested terrans is probably the right first move.
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On January 11 2013 13:17 wptlzkwjd wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2013 12:56 LeafMeAlone wrote:On January 11 2013 12:53 wptlzkwjd wrote:On January 11 2013 12:36 Badfatpanda wrote:
You know what would be cool? If Blizzard realized that THEY were the ones that put oil on the flame by buffing queen range. Try reverting it, TvZ will be fixed in a snap and taking away IT upgrades would fix TvP for the most part.
But they never admit their mistakes. That's why we're in this mess 6 months later. But...what does queen range have to do with late game tvz? Early game -> Mid game -> End game They all affect each other  , zerg basically skips early and half of the mid game because of queens and the ability to drone really hard I know but when both players are maxed out and on even footing, it won't make any difference.
That is too simplistic view. The early game advantages snowballs into the mid game and then into the late game. As an extreme example, let's say marines automatically have stim/combat shields/+3/+3 from the beginning of the game. You could say it won't matter late game because they would have those upgrades in 200/200 battles anyways. But of course, it would have a huge effect to game balance.
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I wish they would make fungal only slow but not disable movement.. or take it out of the game and design a spell better for competitive play. fungals are boring!
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On January 11 2013 13:27 usethis2 wrote:
And please stop this nonsense about changing fungal to "slow". They're not Sorceresses. Fungal used to have double the time of root effect prior to getting damage buff. No one complained about "root" at that time. imagine that. The whole thing is a difficult mess to sort out because without fungal damage Z had no answer to upgraded mass marines and mass blink stalkers, even with broods or ultras. (Do people forget so easily?)
Besides which, how many units do you think you can save against fast Z units if your units are 50% slowed? How many units can you safely bring back home when you lose a battle and marauders are chasing you? The theorecrafting that people conjure up is simply stunning, for its silliness.
The problem is that with the damage buff of fungals, Z players discovered infested terrans are awesome damage dealers and damage soakers, thus started massing them. Changing infested terrans is probably the right first move.
Well, one of the reasons why people have suggested slow is for the air units. Let say you get 10 vikings clumped and you get caught with a fungal, there is no way to spread out your vikings to avoid the chain fungal. And that is just too punishing.
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I wish they would leave Infestors alone. It's not like Zerg has other tools in it's arsenal to use.
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On January 11 2013 13:17 wptlzkwjd wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2013 12:56 LeafMeAlone wrote:On January 11 2013 12:53 wptlzkwjd wrote:On January 11 2013 12:36 Badfatpanda wrote:
You know what would be cool? If Blizzard realized that THEY were the ones that put oil on the flame by buffing queen range. Try reverting it, TvZ will be fixed in a snap and taking away IT upgrades would fix TvP for the most part.
But they never admit their mistakes. That's why we're in this mess 6 months later. But...what does queen range have to do with late game tvz? Early game -> Mid game -> End game They all affect each other , zerg basically skips early and half of the mid game because of queens and the ability to drone really hard I know but when both players are maxed out and on even footing, it won't make any difference.
Are you trolling ? Zerg remax faster and Zerg lategame army composition infester bl > Terran race
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It is a little to late and for the reasons I mentioned in the earlier post (quoted below) I'm opposed to it, but if they must, the direction seems to be right. From what I can see, Z players do not amass 20 infestors for fungals. It seems like 80%+ of infestor energy goes to IT's, not fungals. If it was fungals, Z players would not make more than 10 infestors.
On January 11 2013 13:17 usethis2 wrote:
I think what they're worried about is the final WoL GSL with 7 Z's in Ro8 (or something in that vein). They're worried about getting bad PR right before the new game hits. (Blizzard can't balance their games!) Someone higher-up must have tapped D. Kim's shoulders and said "Hey, it'd be great we could show off how we can make balanced games before the launch of the sequel!" And startled D. Kim feels anxious about his job security. Rofl.
Kind of lame and pathetic attempt to punish players for Blizzard's short-term business profit.
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On January 11 2013 13:33 VillageBC wrote:
I wish they would leave Infestors alone. It's not like Zerg has other tools in it's arsenal to use.
As a Zerg, I would rather see Zerg lose in an interesting way than win in a boring one. Infestors need to be butchered to make the game fun to watch/play again, and at this point i don't even care if it makes Zerg UP.
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Also stop this smurfing "As an X player, I want to see X's units nerfed" Unless the person is semi-public persona, I don't believe anyone claiming such identity. I believe others share the same sentiment.
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On January 11 2013 14:02 Tachion wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2013 13:33 VillageBC wrote:
I wish they would leave Infestors alone. It's not like Zerg has other tools in it's arsenal to use. As a Zerg, I would rather see Zerg lose in an interesting way than win in a boring one. Infestors need to be butchered to make the game fun to watch/play again, and at this point i don't even care if it makes Zerg UP.
Well for WoL I think they just want to quickly patch something for infestors to stop people only bitching about tournaments until HotS. People keep crying about a fungal slow, and though I like that idea, it won't happen in WoL. Infestor upgrades are an easy implemented patch. Could literally take a programmer 60 seconds to implement and testing would be incredibly straight forward with a 1 dimensional patch. Fungal slow would potentially have mechanical considerations and changes to gameplay beyond the testing, release and maintenance breadth of WoL.
I also wouldn't mind seeing infestors take a big hit, because then they can spend some time fixing issues with other units that have struggled in WoL (Hydras, Ultras). The same could be applied to units in other races too as if certain units were toned down notably issues with other units would be more easily addressed.
Maybe. Balance is a funny thing. Despite all the internet balance champions it's not like changing fungal would "fix the game". Blizzard, from what I've seen in HotS patches, are actually doing the right thing in the beta from my impression. Trying a lot of different things, getting data. People see every single patch and go "Oh my god if this is how HotS is going to be it's so stupid. DKim and DBrowder are clearly directly responsible as Creative Directors, Game Balance Designers, Quality Assurance Managers, CEOs, etc and should be fired."
I just wish the majority of TL was smarter about how balance happens. Not to say Blizzard is doing it perfectly, because I think they've stuffed up. But I'd still prefer them at the helm over most posts. [/endminirant]
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Wonderful. Not because they're overpowered (honestly, I don't care about that aspect of things), but because they lead to the most uninteresting and uninspired games known to man.
Fungal should be a move intended to let your Banelings hit, and Infested Terrans should never have been introduced in the first place. Such a terribly designed unit. Can't wait until HotS, when Zerg gets another caster that looks to actually be interesting.
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On January 11 2013 13:27 usethis2 wrote:
And please stop this nonsense about changing fungal to "slow". They're not Sorceresses. Fungal used to have double the time of root effect prior to getting damage buff. No one complained about "root" at that time. imagine that. The whole thing is a difficult mess to sort out because without fungal damage Z had no answer to upgraded mass marines and mass blink stalkers, even with broods or ultras. (Do people forget so easily?)
Besides which, how many units do you think you can save against fast Z units if your units are 50% slowed? How many units can you safely bring back home when you lose a battle and marauders are chasing you? The theorecrafting that people conjure up is simply stunning, for its silliness.
The problem is that with the damage buff of fungals, Z players discovered infested terrans are awesome damage dealers and damage soakers, thus started massing them. Changing infested terrans is probably the right first move.
Fruitdealer was an early pioneer of infestors. When he fungaled units, he often did so for specific reasons. He would fungal groups of marines so they could be easily killed with banelings, fungal tanks so they could not unsiege during drops, fungal medivacs so they could not escape mutas.
I think people didn't complain about infestors before the damage buff for two main reasons: because infestors had only recently begin to see significant use, and because they were used for more specific reasons as opposed to their nearly ubiquitous use today. Because infestors are now almost always used in the mid-late game of every matchup, the problems with an area of effect immobilization spell are more clear.
If fungal was a slow, it would still hard counter mass marines and mass blink stalkers. Fungal wouldn't stop preventing blink, and marines and stalkers would still take massive damage even if they were spread to reduce the effectiveness of future fungals. Ling baneling infestor would still demolish mass marine because a slow would greatly reduce the effectiveness of stutter step and splitting micro and if marines remained clumped, they would easily die to fungal and baneling damage.
Fungal would remain a strong spell if it were a 50%+ slow, I don't think anyone doubts that. Fungal would continue to prevent units from retreating from a battle.
The problem, in my opinion, is that once units are fungaled, there is nothing an opponent can do to reduce the effectiveness of chain fungals. For example, if fungal were a 50% slow, you wouldn't have a situation in which a clump of phoenix harassing a zerg's mineral line are fungaled and unable to escape before they are all chain fungaled to death.
If fungal were a slow, players would have a choice. Hold their ground and continue attacking, or attempt to reposition their units to fare better against banelings, ultras, and/or further fungals. Often, this would not be much of a choice, and fungaled units would behave more or less the same as they currently do. In many cases, however, it would allow players to combat fungal with strong micro.
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On January 11 2013 14:48 Emzeeshady wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2013 08:50 Elite_ wrote:On January 11 2013 07:56 Aveng3r wrote:
christmas came half a year late Fixed this for you. edit - fixed even more edit 2 - Shame there's only 5 Protoss in Code S to enjoy a more balanced game... Maybe they'll make it far, though.  PvZ is already Protoss favoured. This is to balance ZvT
Oh yeah, P is taking down Broodlord Infestor SOOO easy. Z is really struggling lately (ie. patchzergs). lol
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I think Infestor should be either:
a)
- fungals deals damage like now
- can't hold enemy units
- can chain fungal
b)
- fungals only hold enemy units, no damage dealt
- can chain fungal
Also, I would like the introduction of unit population caps. This forces players not to abuse 1 unit. After-all, 1 unit RTS is soo boring imho.
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On January 11 2013 14:15 usethis2 wrote:
Also stop this smurfing "As an X player, I want to see X's units nerfed" Unless the person is semi-public persona, I don't believe anyone claiming such identity. I believe others share the same sentiment.
Of course, since obviously winning random ladder games > having a fun-to-play and fun-to-watch game.
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On January 11 2013 13:27 usethis2 wrote:
And please stop this nonsense about changing fungal to "slow". They're not Sorceresses. Fungal used to have double the time of root effect prior to getting damage buff. No one complained about "root" at that time. imagine that. The whole thing is a difficult mess to sort out because without fungal damage Z had no answer to upgraded mass marines and mass blink stalkers, even with broods or ultras. (Do people forget so easily?)
Besides which, how many units do you think you can save against fast Z units if your units are 50% slowed? How many units can you safely bring back home when you lose a battle and marauders are chasing you? The theorecrafting that people conjure up is simply stunning, for its silliness.
The problem is that with the damage buff of fungals, Z players discovered infested terrans are awesome damage dealers and damage soakers, thus started massing them. Changing infested terrans is probably the right first move.
The reason why it should be changed to slow or just taken out completely is because it is incredibly boring to watch and play when one of the players is not allowed to micro at all once fungal goes off. And obviously if this happened (which I think needs to happen) zerg would have to be compensated in a different huge way, maybe not even through a slow or root.
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On January 11 2013 13:20 ikh wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2013 13:10 FabledIntegral wrote:On January 11 2013 13:07 ikh wrote:On January 11 2013 13:03 FabledIntegral wrote:
Honestly, I really like IT being a little on the "too much" side. SC2 needs things like that. while i certainly would agree with that statement to an extent, do you think infested terrans offer potential for interesting gameplay? i would argue it's an even more boring skill than fungal growth is, i have not once seen myself go "wow, those are some really nice infested terrans! yowch!" and i really can't imagine that happening any time soon. that's the kind of skill i would argue could/should be situationally powerful, but definitely not race defining or "too much". I think it offers a ton of depth in how they are used. They draw fire. They have a delay in how long it takes to spawn. It requires a ton of effort to spam a bunch at once (which could be used elsewhere), so you have to decide if it's worth it. At the same time it leads into queing them up having a bunch more potential, which is decision making, and they can be used when infestors are burrowed, adding depth to burrow play. On the flip side, it forces a decision out of your opponent. Do I engage the IT? If I just move away, the IT will die from limited time. But we all know it's not that simple, sometimes you need to engage, sometimes you've committed, sometimes you need to save a CC from burning down, sometimes you simply can't retreat due to Zerg's other units. IT offer a lot more to the game than people give it credit for. I can't imagine how you can think fungal is more interesting. quite easily, but then again, agree to disagree. the part about infested terran spam taking mechanical effort, that's not true at all as long as you have a scroll wheel on your mouse. instant energy dump if that's what you want. not sure what the official stance on that is in tournaments though, heard both that it's legit and forbidden. even so, i would not exactly agree that it takes a ton of effort, or even a decent amount of it, to IT energy dump normally. i can click something like 10-15 times per second easily, that's 250-375 energy used per second. and i'm far from a professional 5000apm korean. (e: 100 clicks in 7,5 seconds with maybe 60 of em in the first 3,5) from a spectator perspective, i don't know if anyone could watch some of the infestor heavy endgame zvz's and not go "wow, this is some bullshit" and alt-tabbing away when (almost) all that happens is mountains of IT colliding until the game ends . this coming from someone who has never thought anything of the sort about like any game ever as far as i can recall. i don't think fungal at its current form is an interesting skill, but i think it's possible to balance it to not be a boring one. either by tweaking the numbers or by more drastically changing how it works. infested terrans, not so much.
Scroll wheel isn't allowed in any tournament because there's no way to naturally set the scroll bar as a key. Maybe if you're talking about a local LAN.... but it's not really relevant and I don't seem to encounter many players on ladder that do it anyways. I'm not really taking that into consideration. If people want to go around the rules because they can.... kinda hard to stop. It's remotely akin to maphacking.
End game ZvZ is indeed garbage but it's the least likely of the ZvX MUs to go there. And honestly if fungal were nerfed enough you wouldn't mass that many infestors in the first place to eventually use IT.... so that point is kinda moot haha.
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EPT
