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Blizzard is changing things to allow them to nerf the infestor...but they are not making the changes that allow them to do that until HoTS. Why don't potential changes translate into WoL easily?
#1. The addition of the Viper and Swarm Host in HoTS adds new dynamics that fix a lot of the issues that a heavily nerfd infestor will create. Abduct will make zerg low and mid tier units much more feasible by allowing you to pull T and P siege units out of the rear lines where your units can deal with them. The swarmlings can be used to absorb damage or siege a turtling opponent.
#2. The way the unit dynamics work currently in WoL the infestor is such a lynch pin to pretty much all zerg strategy that if blizzard messes with it to much they can easily flip zerg to the hind end of the spectrum in a hurry.
- Reduce Fungal Damage (again mind you): Ling/Infestor becomes nearly impossible to pull off which makes infestor ultra in turn very difficult to tech to and survive.
- Remove/Reduce the movement impairing effect: Vikings/Pheonix/Void Rays, will likely easily dispatch broodlords as they are slow near impossible to micro units. Ultras can no longer catch up to kiting armies and become useless. Blink stalkers have free rain vs roach based armies and can not be killed. So even if you changed it to a slow, it'd have to be so slow a broodlord can run...that's pretty darn slow.
Are changes impossible to make? No, but this is why you see the changes coming very very slowly. Any significant change to fungal could make a plethora of zerg strati impossible to use prior to HoTS.
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On January 24 2013 00:38 Nerski wrote:Show nested quote +On January 15 2013 04:22 Diogenes wrote:
It's clear that the A-team is working on HOTS. They almost immediately acknowledge that Infestors would be nerfed in HOTS. But in WOL? No way Jose. Go buy the xpac guys if you want a balanced game. Meanwhile, we have to endure 6 months of ZvZ's and a previously exciting game be about spamming infestors. Even when infestors do not show up, they warp the game because everybody knows you have to hit a zerg before they get infestors or you lose.
Is it a wonder why viewership keeps decreasing? David Kim really needs to be fired if Blizzard is going to show the community they give a crap. Dude was a relic balance tester too. That game suffered from a ridiculous imbalance in strafe as well that never got dealt with. I want to just point out, if anyone at blizzard knows balance it's david kim...but he has to fight against the machine that wants big explosions and cool units. If he were the only one testing and deciding if a change got made you'd probably see balance come into perspective a lot more quickly. He however is a voice in a crowd, so to single him out is just plain ignorant.
Have you read his patch "thoughts"
Its impossible to agree with how he justifies the patches.
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Everytime I read David Kim's interviews/balance reports/thoughts etc I am utterly amazed by how incompetent he is. Keep in mind this is also the guy who ruined the balance in Dawn of War. No idea how he got hired to balance sc2.
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On January 24 2013 03:51 vNmMasterT wrote:
Everytime I read David Kim's interviews/balance reports/thoughts etc I am utterly amazed by how incompetent he is. Keep in mind this is also the guy who ruined the balance in Dawn of War. No idea how he got hired to balance sc2.
Lol I have the opposite reaction.
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On January 24 2013 03:51 vNmMasterT wrote:
Everytime I read David Kim's interviews/balance reports/thoughts etc I am utterly amazed by how incompetent he is. Keep in mind this is also the guy who ruined the balance in Dawn of War. No idea how he got hired to balance sc2.
I don't know what youre thinking but he balanced sc2 fairly well.
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On January 24 2013 03:51 vNmMasterT wrote:
Everytime I read David Kim's interviews/balance reports/thoughts etc I am utterly amazed by how incompetent he is. Keep in mind this is also the guy who ruined the balance in Dawn of War. No idea how he got hired to balance sc2.
I think you probably wouldn't do better.
People don't seems to realize how many variables are affected by even the most minor things.
I personnaly would not want David Kim job for all the gold in the world.
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On January 24 2013 03:51 vNmMasterT wrote:
Everytime I read David Kim's interviews/balance reports/thoughts etc I am utterly amazed by how incompetent he is. Keep in mind this is also the guy who ruined the balance in Dawn of War. No idea how he got hired to balance sc2.
You clearly haven't played Dawn of War 1 series of games, do you? DKim worked only on the last expansion (SoulStorm), which added +2 races to the game and make-shift flyers for marketing reasons and was still better balanced that the expansion before it (The Dark Crusade) and so much better than the clusterfuck the previous games were, balance-wise.
This is, of course, in a game that only received -2- patches due to Relic's support and IronLore financial problems.
(for anybody interested, i have a more detailed post in my history in the THQ thread about that)
Please, check that your "facts" are even remotely plausible next time, you really hurt my eyes with that ridiculousness.
ps. besides, why did this get bumped? the infestor nerf has already happened, and there probably wont be another
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On January 24 2013 04:13 Skirmjan wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2013 03:51 vNmMasterT wrote:
Everytime I read David Kim's interviews/balance reports/thoughts etc I am utterly amazed by how incompetent he is. Keep in mind this is also the guy who ruined the balance in Dawn of War. No idea how he got hired to balance sc2. You clearly haven't played Dawn of War 1 series of games, do you? DKim worked only on the last expansion (SoulStorm), which added +2 races to the game and make-shift flyers for marketing reasons and was still better balanced that the expansion before it (The Dark Crusade) and so much better than the clusterfuck the previous games were, balance-wise. This is, of course, in a game that only received -2- patches due to Relic's support and IronLore financial problems. (for anybody interested, i have a more detailed post in my history in the THQ thread about that) Please, check that your "facts" are even remotely plausible next time, you really hurt my eyes with that ridiculousness. ps. besides, why did this get bumped? the infestor nerf has already happened, and there probably wont be another
rofl are you joking? kim's been working since Dark Crusade.
http://www.gamereplays.org/community/index.php?showtopic=145032&mode=threaded&pid=1774974
more detailed bs in your history?
edit: I am not saying Kim has an easy job. Just wondering why he was hired when he has previous history of screwing up games. Also please don't say things like he balanced sc2 “fairly well” when it took him over half a year to make any changes to infestors. Look at the huge gameplay issues we have right now (and have for a looong time) and I dont think its unfair to say that he pretty much failed at his job.
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Bisutopia19391 Posts
Has there been a change since the OP or am I missing something?
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On January 24 2013 04:25 vNmMasterT wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2013 04:13 Skirmjan wrote:On January 24 2013 03:51 vNmMasterT wrote:
Everytime I read David Kim's interviews/balance reports/thoughts etc I am utterly amazed by how incompetent he is. Keep in mind this is also the guy who ruined the balance in Dawn of War. No idea how he got hired to balance sc2. You clearly haven't played Dawn of War 1 series of games, do you? DKim worked only on the last expansion (SoulStorm), which added +2 races to the game and make-shift flyers for marketing reasons and was still better balanced that the expansion before it (The Dark Crusade) and so much better than the clusterfuck the previous games were, balance-wise. This is, of course, in a game that only received -2- patches due to Relic's support and IronLore financial problems. (for anybody interested, i have a more detailed post in my history in the THQ thread about that) Please, check that your "facts" are even remotely plausible next time, you really hurt my eyes with that ridiculousness. ps. besides, why did this get bumped? the infestor nerf has already happened, and there probably wont be another rofl are you joking? kim's been working since Dark Crusade. http://www.gamereplays.org/community/index.php?showtopic=145032&mode=threaded&pid=1774974more detailed bs in your history? edit: I am not saying Kim has an easy job. Just wondering why he was hired when he has previous history of screwing up games. Also please don't say things like he balanced sc2 “fairly well” when it took him over half a year to make any changes to infestors. Look at the huge gameplay issues we have right now (and have for a looong time) and I dont think its unfair to say that he pretty much failed at his job.
Even better, since the game balance went for the better -since- DC... talking about a series that gets 2 patches for expansion, that says something. Or didn't you read my post? DC had a ton of problems, but WA is nothing compared to it really.
http://www.mobygames.com/developer/sheet/view/by_genre/developerId,309509/ i checked mobygames btw, strange
or are you seriously arguing that Winter Assault was balanced better than the later games? LoL!
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On January 24 2013 04:46 Skirmjan wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2013 04:25 vNmMasterT wrote:On January 24 2013 04:13 Skirmjan wrote:On January 24 2013 03:51 vNmMasterT wrote:
Everytime I read David Kim's interviews/balance reports/thoughts etc I am utterly amazed by how incompetent he is. Keep in mind this is also the guy who ruined the balance in Dawn of War. No idea how he got hired to balance sc2. You clearly haven't played Dawn of War 1 series of games, do you? DKim worked only on the last expansion (SoulStorm), which added +2 races to the game and make-shift flyers for marketing reasons and was still better balanced that the expansion before it (The Dark Crusade) and so much better than the clusterfuck the previous games were, balance-wise. This is, of course, in a game that only received -2- patches due to Relic's support and IronLore financial problems. (for anybody interested, i have a more detailed post in my history in the THQ thread about that) Please, check that your "facts" are even remotely plausible next time, you really hurt my eyes with that ridiculousness. ps. besides, why did this get bumped? the infestor nerf has already happened, and there probably wont be another rofl are you joking? kim's been working since Dark Crusade. http://www.gamereplays.org/community/index.php?showtopic=145032&mode=threaded&pid=1774974more detailed bs in your history? edit: I am not saying Kim has an easy job. Just wondering why he was hired when he has previous history of screwing up games. Also please don't say things like he balanced sc2 “fairly well” when it took him over half a year to make any changes to infestors. Look at the huge gameplay issues we have right now (and have for a looong time) and I dont think its unfair to say that he pretty much failed at his job. Even better, since the game balance went for the better -since- DC... talking about a series that gets 2 patches for expansion, that says something. Or didn't you read my post? DC had a ton of problems, but WA is nothing compared to it really. http://www.mobygames.com/developer/sheet/view/by_genre/developerId,309509/ i checked mobygames btw, strange or are you seriously arguing that Winter Assault was balanced better than the later games? LoL!
More rofl from this guy. First of all WA is much more balanced than DC (maybe not soulstorm, but then soulstorm was unplayable due to exploits for a looong time). Second I highly doubt Kim worked on Soulstorm a lot (if at all) since development is outsourced to Ironlore. Even if Kim has a huge influence on Soulstorm, if you think its “even better” to wait for an expansion to fix existing balance issues in an existing game, then i don't know what to say.
You seem to keep mentioning the 2 patch thing for Soulstorm. I don't know what you're trying to say? It takes them many many many many months to release a first patch which addresses a number of game breaking bugs and exploits. I suppose you think this is good too.
Pretty ridiculous how some ignorant idiot can randomly write a bunch of crap to try and bring down my credibility when evidence can simply be found by googling “Dark Crusdae David Kim”. And then tried to turn things around with more bs logic (lol).
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He's obviously trying to say that balancing a game when the company rarely releases a patch is not an easy task.
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SS was pretty fun, but overall i think DC was better (not even going to talk about vanilla and WA): fliers were 90% useless, it was bugged as fuck (not Kim's fault though), and the new races weren't really deep. Also it was pretty darn imba like DC: in Dc necron were OP as fuck, in SS, Tau were unbeatable unless you were an eldar with really really good micro). So balance wise wasnt really that good...
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On January 24 2013 05:00 vNmMasterT wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2013 04:46 Skirmjan wrote:On January 24 2013 04:25 vNmMasterT wrote:On January 24 2013 04:13 Skirmjan wrote:On January 24 2013 03:51 vNmMasterT wrote:
Everytime I read David Kim's interviews/balance reports/thoughts etc I am utterly amazed by how incompetent he is. Keep in mind this is also the guy who ruined the balance in Dawn of War. No idea how he got hired to balance sc2. You clearly haven't played Dawn of War 1 series of games, do you? DKim worked only on the last expansion (SoulStorm), which added +2 races to the game and make-shift flyers for marketing reasons and was still better balanced that the expansion before it (The Dark Crusade) and so much better than the clusterfuck the previous games were, balance-wise. This is, of course, in a game that only received -2- patches due to Relic's support and IronLore financial problems. (for anybody interested, i have a more detailed post in my history in the THQ thread about that) Please, check that your "facts" are even remotely plausible next time, you really hurt my eyes with that ridiculousness. ps. besides, why did this get bumped? the infestor nerf has already happened, and there probably wont be another rofl are you joking? kim's been working since Dark Crusade. http://www.gamereplays.org/community/index.php?showtopic=145032&mode=threaded&pid=1774974more detailed bs in your history? edit: I am not saying Kim has an easy job. Just wondering why he was hired when he has previous history of screwing up games. Also please don't say things like he balanced sc2 “fairly well” when it took him over half a year to make any changes to infestors. Look at the huge gameplay issues we have right now (and have for a looong time) and I dont think its unfair to say that he pretty much failed at his job. Even better, since the game balance went for the better -since- DC... talking about a series that gets 2 patches for expansion, that says something. Or didn't you read my post? DC had a ton of problems, but WA is nothing compared to it really. http://www.mobygames.com/developer/sheet/view/by_genre/developerId,309509/ i checked mobygames btw, strange or are you seriously arguing that Winter Assault was balanced better than the later games? LoL! More rofl from this guy. First of all WA is much more balanced than DC (maybe not soulstorm, but then soulstorm was unplayable due to exploits for a looong time). Second I highly doubt Kim worked on Soulstorm a lot (if at all) since development is outsourced to Ironlore. Even if Kim has a huge influence on Soulstorm, if you think its “even better” to wait for an expansion to fix existing balance issues in an existing game, then i don't know what to say. You seem to keep mentioning the 2 patch thing for Soulstorm. I don't know what you're trying to say? It takes them many many many many months to release a first patch which addresses a number of game breaking bugs and exploits. I suppose you think this is good too. Pretty ridiculous how some ignorant idiot can randomly write a bunch of crap to try and bring down my credibility when evidence can simply be found by googling “Dark Crusdae David Kim”. And then tried to turn things around with more bs logic (lol).
WA is more balanced than DC? a game where when you reach T3 units all other units become useless and you only spam terminators/warp spiders/kaserkins or w/e your race has? sure, in the same logic marines should become useless when you reach thors, and you'd need more deathballs in the game.
The soulstorms exploits are clearly balance issue, like the SoB shrine getting cancelled and giving you more money than it's worth is a balance issue! And so is the harley's ability with the side effect of erasing your bank, or the broken matchmaking in the last patch.... really?
Probably DK has coded the paches himself!
I don't have to bring down your credibility, your arguments have none to begin with.
Besides, i'm not "this guy", thank you, and i'd really like to see your google evidence that DC balance is worse than WA.
This is my last response, enough derailment of this thread, if you still wanna keep your ideas no matter what,free to do that, but please go say that stuff in DoW Sanctuary (now RTS sanctuary, mostly dead but still) so that i can see the reactions. Thx.
edit:@IgotPlayguu
+ Show Spoiler +yep fliers were bad except IG, Ork and De, with a couple others being only good anti other fliers... on the new races, i beg to diasgree as a Dark Eldar (switched from eldar) 1v1 player myself  but yes, balance was tiered with Tau/Eldar being on top (with some strange stuff tho, like De having fair odds vs eldar and none vs good tau (free win vs not top tau tho) and the other races having both good mu's and bad ones with Orks as the most well rounded race in the game.
edit @ answer.
ok i checked your post history, now i know i shouldn't have ever answered in the first place. You are basically trying to 1 up me while not mentioning anything specific, merely mirroring and distorting what i say, while basically going for "me right,you wrong"
but np, i'm sure you are an expert in DoW and played in the country championship cup 2010 in ESL like i did, right? such a bad troll.
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On January 24 2013 05:44 Skirmjan wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2013 05:00 vNmMasterT wrote:On January 24 2013 04:46 Skirmjan wrote:On January 24 2013 04:25 vNmMasterT wrote:On January 24 2013 04:13 Skirmjan wrote:On January 24 2013 03:51 vNmMasterT wrote:
Everytime I read David Kim's interviews/balance reports/thoughts etc I am utterly amazed by how incompetent he is. Keep in mind this is also the guy who ruined the balance in Dawn of War. No idea how he got hired to balance sc2. You clearly haven't played Dawn of War 1 series of games, do you? DKim worked only on the last expansion (SoulStorm), which added +2 races to the game and make-shift flyers for marketing reasons and was still better balanced that the expansion before it (The Dark Crusade) and so much better than the clusterfuck the previous games were, balance-wise. This is, of course, in a game that only received -2- patches due to Relic's support and IronLore financial problems. (for anybody interested, i have a more detailed post in my history in the THQ thread about that) Please, check that your "facts" are even remotely plausible next time, you really hurt my eyes with that ridiculousness. ps. besides, why did this get bumped? the infestor nerf has already happened, and there probably wont be another rofl are you joking? kim's been working since Dark Crusade. http://www.gamereplays.org/community/index.php?showtopic=145032&mode=threaded&pid=1774974more detailed bs in your history? edit: I am not saying Kim has an easy job. Just wondering why he was hired when he has previous history of screwing up games. Also please don't say things like he balanced sc2 “fairly well” when it took him over half a year to make any changes to infestors. Look at the huge gameplay issues we have right now (and have for a looong time) and I dont think its unfair to say that he pretty much failed at his job. Even better, since the game balance went for the better -since- DC... talking about a series that gets 2 patches for expansion, that says something. Or didn't you read my post? DC had a ton of problems, but WA is nothing compared to it really. http://www.mobygames.com/developer/sheet/view/by_genre/developerId,309509/ i checked mobygames btw, strange or are you seriously arguing that Winter Assault was balanced better than the later games? LoL! More rofl from this guy. First of all WA is much more balanced than DC (maybe not soulstorm, but then soulstorm was unplayable due to exploits for a looong time). Second I highly doubt Kim worked on Soulstorm a lot (if at all) since development is outsourced to Ironlore. Even if Kim has a huge influence on Soulstorm, if you think its “even better” to wait for an expansion to fix existing balance issues in an existing game, then i don't know what to say. You seem to keep mentioning the 2 patch thing for Soulstorm. I don't know what you're trying to say? It takes them many many many many months to release a first patch which addresses a number of game breaking bugs and exploits. I suppose you think this is good too. Pretty ridiculous how some ignorant idiot can randomly write a bunch of crap to try and bring down my credibility when evidence can simply be found by googling “Dark Crusdae David Kim”. And then tried to turn things around with more bs logic (lol). WA is more balanced than DC? a game where when you reach T3 units all other units become useless and you only spam terminators/warp spiders/kaserkins or w/e your race has? sure, in the same logic marines should become useless when you reach thors, and you'd need more deathballs in the game. The soulstorms exploits are clearly balance issue, like the SoB shrine getting cancelled and giving you more money than it's worth is a balance issue! And so is the harley's ability with the side effect of erasing your bank, or the broken matchmaking in the last patch.... really? Probably DK has coded the paches himself! I don't have to bring down your credibility, your arguments have none to begin with. Besides, i'm not "this guy", thank you, and i'd really like to see your google evidence that DC balance is worse than WA. This is my last response, enough derailment of this thread, if you still wanna keep your ideas no matter what,free to do that, but please go say that stuff in DoW Sanctuary (now RTS sanctuary, mostly dead but still) so that i can see the reactions. Thx. edit:@IgotPlayguu + Show Spoiler +yep fliers were bad except IG, Ork and De, with a couple others being only good anti other fliers... on the new races, i beg to diasgree as a Dark Eldar (switched from eldar) 1v1 player myself but yes, balance was tiered with Tau/Eldar being on top (with some strange stuff tho, like De having fair odds vs eldar and none vs good tau (free win vs not top tau tho) and the other races having both good mu's and bad ones with Orks as the most well rounded race in the game.
1. I never said the exploits are balance issues and never blamed them on David Kim.
2. DC balance is worse than WA, majority of old players would agree (especially guys in DoW sanc)
3. Look through the convo you can see you are the one starting the derailment by pretending to be an expert on DoW. David Kim did a poor job at balancing DoW and he is doing a poor job at balancing sc2 now. End of.
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