EPTBlizzard Plans to Nerf Infestors (WoL) - Page 17
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autoexec
United States530 Posts
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Sumadin
Denmark588 Posts
On January 13 2013 07:42 autoexec wrote: Why don't they just get rid of fungal and find a new casting power for the infestors? People will continue to complain about it so just eliminate the problem. Because of mutas. For a race who got no other AOE anti air ZvZ would turn into permanent Muta vs Muta with no way to stall their movements. Fungal is also the primary spell that allows Zerg to take air battles as mass vikings has no real Zerg Air-to-Air counter. And no Hydras don't really work vs Terrans. As much as i may dislike the design of fungal there is no questiom that it is need right now. | ||
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Sumadin
Denmark588 Posts
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usethis2
2164 Posts
On January 12 2013 22:27 DarkLordOlli wrote: Did you consider what broodlings cost? Nothing. You can't even take out the source because of fungal. So basically a perfectly controlled infestor/BL army trades nothing but energy for an entire protoss army. Stalkers are NOT free. Nowhere near free. Which is kind of weird argument. Do marines and stalkers pay for every bullets and lazer beam they shoot out? They're free, too. You could consider psi storm as million particle-sized "free" units that do damage over time as well. Which can be replenished unlimited as long as the templar can stay alive. Different animations or durations don't mean anything is "free." | ||
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plogamer
Canada3132 Posts
On January 13 2013 17:49 usethis2 wrote: Which is kind of weird argument. Do marines and stalkers pay for every bullets and lazer beam they shoot out? They're free, too. You could consider psi storm as million particle-sized "free" units that do damage over time as well. Which can be replenished unlimited as long as the templar can stay alive. Different animations or durations don't mean anything is "free." Comparing broodlings to marine bullets is misleading. A) Marine bullets have no HP, and end up soaking up substantial damage, B) They don't cause friendly-fire from seige tanks. But yeah, the idea behind the topic originally is the fact that these 'seemingly free' (since you dispute the 'free' semantics), are just too powerful. Case in point, infested terrans. | ||
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nailertn
48 Posts
On January 13 2013 17:22 Sumadin wrote: Because of mutas. For a race who got no other AOE anti air ZvZ would turn into permanent Muta vs Muta with no way to stall their movements. Fungal is also the primary spell that allows Zerg to take air battles as mass vikings has no real Zerg Air-to-Air counter. And no Hydras don't really work vs Terrans. As much as i may dislike the design of fungal there is no questiom that it is need right now. Muta vs. viking is slightly viking favored, corruptor vs. viking is slightly corruptor favored. No terran will equal a zerg in air unit production, air superiority is zerg's for the taking. Besides if a terran goes "mass viking" he already lost. | ||
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Insoleet
France1806 Posts
But with the queen buff, zerg has got the macro power it needs. But fungle is still there, this spell which was used to fix zerg at the time were it couldnt macro correctly. We need to nerf fungle, so that it does as much dps as it did before the buff. Before the 8 to 4 seconds buff, fungle was doing : - 36 damages over 8 seconds = 4 dps Now, it does : - 30 damages over 4 seconds = 7.5 dps Just set fungle so that it does only 16 damages. And you here fungle get fixed. It still stucks mutas (which can be destroyed with fungle + queens now). But against marines, zerg needs banelings. Because medivacs will be able to save more marines with their heal. We still can see epic fungles engagements, (like stephano vs mkp for those who remember) but fungle alone wont kill units. | ||
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SomeONEx
Sweden641 Posts
Isn't fungal the real problem? | ||
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Sumadin
Denmark588 Posts
On January 13 2013 18:19 nailertn wrote: Muta vs. viking is slightly viking favored, corruptor vs. viking is slightly corruptor favored. No terran will equal a zerg in air unit production, air superiority is zerg's for the taking. Besides if a terran goes "mass viking" he already lost. Still no solution to Mutas vs Mutas... Mass Viking would be the natural responce if there is alot of Broodlords present. And adding a few ravens will change the favor to the vikings against corruptor. There is no facing a lategame terran with the infrastructure in Air-to-Air. This is still an extremely expensive trade for the zerg, and they can't keep their trading tactics going for long without being cost efficiant. Which they really can't. Even if they can split for seekers they still must take note of the PDDs. | ||
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Kpaxlol
813 Posts
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Kettchup
United States1911 Posts
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Vanadiel
France961 Posts
On January 13 2013 18:19 nailertn wrote: Muta vs. viking is slightly viking favored, corruptor vs. viking is slightly corruptor favored. No terran will equal a zerg in air unit production, air superiority is zerg's for the taking. Besides if a terran goes "mass viking" he already lost. No it's not, because Viking has better range so Corrupteur can ben kited without fungal, and there is still the Thor support that does wonder; To be honest, the power of infested terran is more an issue for PvZ than TvZ so it's still a good nerf, but the main problem right now is still TvZ and fungal. But I don't think you can nerf fungal itself because every thing in zerg arsenal relies on it, so, for me, the best way to nerf infestor is to make them harder to use, by making them smaller. One of the main problem for terran is when they nerf the radius of EMP to fix some balance issue of TvP, it also affected TvZ and the strenght of EMP against infestor. So by making them smaller, EMP will hit more infestor, and this will also make them more sensible to tank splash and colossus. | ||
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Snusmumriken
Sweden1717 Posts
On January 13 2013 19:05 Insoleet wrote: We still can see epic fungles engagements, (like stephano vs mkp for those who remember) but fungle alone wont kill units. The thing is, there is absolutely nothing epic about fungals at all. Its superboring to watch, its superboring to play both with and against and it is just a shitty designed spell. Yes its needed at this point in zvz but lets not pretend a crutch is a real leg. There are various things that could be tested: 1. Make fungal only root on creep otherwise only slow 2. Nerf damage output of fungal somewhat 3. only make fungal root air 4. Make fungal a projectile Either one of these would probably be just fine with some finetuning. I personally prefer the first or the last over the others but either would work. I understand that blizzard doesnt want to make a lot of changes to wol at this point as its not going to be played much in a few months so theyll probably do the easiest change if any change at all. | ||
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ejozl
Denmark3351 Posts
It might be that it is better for the game to change the design for Fungal, but that's what they're doing in HotS, as for WoL they just have to make it a little more fair until HotS comes to save the day. There's still tons of prize money to give out in WoL, so we should respect this decision. | ||
Olli
Austria24417 Posts
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ganil
253 Posts
I think the problem is that: - Z can be super greedy and be totally safe. - Z can be agressive (2 bases timing) and destroy greedy T (Z goes from no unit to big army in no time at all: no way to scout in time). - Z lategame too good. No amount of nerf on the infestor is going to fix that. | ||
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totauksz
Ghana190 Posts
On January 13 2013 17:49 usethis2 wrote: Which is kind of weird argument. Do marines and stalkers pay for every bullets and lazer beam they shoot out? They're free, too. You could consider psi storm as million particle-sized "free" units that do damage over time as well. Which can be replenished unlimited as long as the templar can stay alive. Different animations or durations don't mean anything is "free." congrats, you don't understand what free units mean, that's a hell of a performance. you together with that guy who thinks stalkers are free units are priceless. | ||
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Baum
Germany1010 Posts
On January 12 2013 21:35 NEEDZMOAR wrote: banelings are never cost efficient on a pro level unless your opponent screws up, and thats the key words, you have to rely on your opponent screwing up for banelings to be a good gasdump. besides, what about zvp and zvz? and no its not exciting to watch something just because there are more explosions and whatnot, I hate banelings, I hate watching it, I hate having to make them, why? because, as Ive already mentioned before, I have to rely on my opponent to fuck up, and I have to rely on luck, with medivacs banelings might not even do enough damage, blink stalkers would just be stupidly good if fungal were removed, you think zvp lategame is passive now? remove fungal and no zerg would ever attack, ever... you know whats really breaking this game? bioballs + medivacs + infinite selection + clumping up, there u have it, without that, the other races wouldnt have to rely on guaranteed aoe damage and crowdcontrol ( sentries / infestors). Do you realise how easy it was for T to break down equally good zerg players who didnt have Idra / DRG / leenocks apm to play muta ling bling cost efficiently? Zerg rarely ever has to be cost efficient because their economy is usually better. Also the reason Banelings are effective versus Bio is that even when your opponent is splitting his units it means that your lings can actually be way more effective so forcing your opponent to split is also a reason for making banelings not just to punish a player for not splitting. On January 13 2013 19:09 SomeONEx wrote: I'm glad the infestor is receiving some attention, but I still have to ask; Isn't fungal the real problem? Actually I think ITs are a much bigger one right now. Sure fungal is unforgiving and a very strong spell but the reason you can mass infestors is that ITs make up for the loss of supply of actual fighting units. If the only thing you can do with Infestors is fungal then you only want to make enough infestors to fungal a big part of the army. You don't need 15+ infestors to do that. | ||
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MrF
United States320 Posts
On January 13 2013 17:49 usethis2 wrote: Which is kind of weird argument. Do marines and stalkers pay for every bullets and lazer beam they shoot out? They're free, too. You could consider psi storm as million particle-sized "free" units that do damage over time as well. Which can be replenished unlimited as long as the templar can stay alive. Different animations or durations don't mean anything is "free." its not about the different animations and i think you knew that before you posted, marine bullets and stalker lazers aren't units that soak up fire and block movement, so that's a horrible comparison. Broodling are free units there is no room for discussion, not saying its OP but its true that they are free infinitely replenishing units, and so are infested terrans. | ||
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Insoleet
France1806 Posts
To be able to spawn some, we would need to use the ability "morph eggs" on our infestors, for like 5 mineralz. Like on the carriers, you would need to build IT in the infestor before spawning them. But its different than carriers because you launch your eggs on the ground, and then they morph in ITs. It's just, it doesnt cost energy, but it cost mineralz, need ot be stocked in the infestor, and each egg would have a built time. | ||
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