Omfg... they're going to neft infestors? I can only imagine what kind atrocity awaits us. Blizzard just created a word that's not even in the English dictionary just for infestors...
On January 11 2013 07:49 Seeker wrote: Omfg... they're going to neft infestors? I can only imagine what kind atrocity awaits us. Blizzard just created a word that's not even in the English dictionary just for infestors...
infestors are so OP, blizzard had to invent a word just to deal with them
On January 11 2013 07:55 KadaverBB wrote: changed thread title
Mannn. This thread could have been epic.
Otherwords, i think its more than fair that a unit that only costs energy doesn't get upgrades. This may swing some things, but I still think zergs rely on them because the natural counter to infestors (templar/ghosts) move to slowly so feedback/emp isn't the safest option. Slowing them down wouldn't make sense, as that would just make the already immobile infestor/bl army even more immobile.
Give High Templars Blink and Ghosts Stim Pack and all will be good :DDD
I don't even play Starcraft anymore, but in my eyes always this change was always what seemed the most reasonable change for IT. Hoepfully this will make TvZ awesome again.
Edit: Oh and make fungal only a slow. Right now it's just terribly boring to watch.
On January 11 2013 07:50 Laryleprakon wrote: Try having fungal slow and not root, at least try it :/
Or even easier, just give 1-2 seconds of time after each fungal where you can't fungal again to allow for more micro.
I don't think you can nerf the strenght of fungal at all in Wing of Liberty ( but thumb's up for HoTS), the best way would be to make them smaller, so one EMP hit more infestor than it is right now, and in the hand of bad player, they would be harder to control since one shot of tank/coloss will damage more infestor than right now.
On January 11 2013 07:50 Laryleprakon wrote: Try having fungal slow and not root, at least try it :/
This, fungal rooting has always been the problem, why don't they understand it?
I agree, they should just make it a strong slow. It basically accomplishes the same thing at the beggining of the engagement, but you can avoid being chain fungaled. However, I think this is a step in the right direction. I still have hopes they are gonna get to the point where they nerf fungal... eventually....
On January 11 2013 07:50 Laryleprakon wrote: Try having fungal slow and not root, at least try it :/
This gets suggested over and over again, but there is a reason it is not implemented, and the reason are mutas in ZvZ.
Perhaps, I would still love to see them try it on a test map with like a 50-75% slow or something. If it doesn't work then the community will stop asking for it.
I guess it is somewhat significant, but massing Infestors will still happen, and ITs will still be prevalent in all match-ups. I've always been a proponent of increasing Infestor supply to 3, so massing Infestors would be a tactic that would dent the army supply, rather than simply nerfing Fungal or ITs.
I've been wanting this for a while now, I think it'll do a great job of stopping infested Terran spam and give better odds to real unit compositions. Infesteds wills till be able to soak damage and kill vikings, but won't be able to demolish full mech or bio armies anymore
On January 11 2013 07:50 Laryleprakon wrote: Try having fungal slow and not root, at least try it :/
This, fungal rooting has always been the problem, why don't they understand it?
I agree, they should just make it a strong slow. It basically acomplishes the same thing at the beggining of the engagement, but you can avoid being chain fungaled. However, I think this is a step in the right direction.
Every change that makes fungal harder to hit (slow projectile), or not rooting, benefits especially the fast units. This emans mutalisks profit a lot from it. Fungals are the only thing that keeps non muta ZvZ viable. Blizzard knows that (they even wrote something like that). Therefore the infestor has to be nerved in different ways (fungal range/infested terrans)
This comes way to late, 2 months till hots is out. Not to mention that then the balance switches from Z>P>T to P>Z=T. Isn't like infestor would be the only broken thing wich should have been changed months ago.
On January 11 2013 07:50 Laryleprakon wrote: Try having fungal slow and not root, at least try it :/
This gets suggested over and over again, but there is a reason it is not implemented, and the reason are mutas in ZvZ.
Perhaps, I would still love to see them try it on a test map with like a 50-75% slow or something. If it doesn't work then the community will stop asking for it.
I guess it is not so hard for the comunity to make such a map, but I do not even see an idea of non muta ZvZ.
I really hate changes that mess with the consistency of a game. Having a single summoned unit be without upgrades (i believe all other summons have a boost to their attack) is kinda gross. why not just change it so that their base damage starts lower by 2?
sigh, whatever; i guess i just feel bad for progamers who's livelihood is reliant on balance changes that arise from when they are doing their job too well.
On January 11 2013 07:50 Laryleprakon wrote: Try having fungal slow and not root, at least try it :/
This, fungal rooting has always been the problem, why don't they understand it?
Why aren't they at least giving it a try? I never understood
The root effect is what's cool about Fungal Growth, it creates positioning and help melee units surround. The damage part, for me was always the silly part, making it much better than Storm/EMP and for not much reason.
The change is good, but so late and so obvious that it really frustrates me, many Terran/Protoss players that could've been getting more prize money, but wasn't rewarded due to imbalance.
On January 11 2013 07:50 Laryleprakon wrote: Try having fungal slow and not root, at least try it :/
This gets suggested over and over again, but there is a reason it is not implemented, and the reason are mutas in ZvZ.
It still deals a lot of dmg to muta's and they destroy muta's way too hard atm anyway (don't pretend zergs ever split their muta's), so it's certainly something worth trying out.
On January 11 2013 07:50 Laryleprakon wrote: Try having fungal slow and not root, at least try it :/
This gets suggested over and over again, but there is a reason it is not implemented, and the reason are mutas in ZvZ.
It still deals a lot of dmg to muta's and they destroy muta's way too hard atm anyway (don't pretend zergs ever split their muta's), so it's certainly something worth trying out.
With mutas regeneration, the damage does not really matter. And zergs do split the mutas.
fungal radius reduced and made into a slow and not root. Also i like the sound of not letting the infested terrans get upgrade advantages. All these changes need to happen in my opinion if they are going to keep it a non projectile.
On January 11 2013 08:44 WarrickHunt wrote: Am I the only one who sees Zerg losing alot more already?
It's not just about balance though. The problem with the infestor is it's too good at being a jack of all trades type unit.
This doesn't help that it roots enemy units so from a viewers perspective having them become less viable and more situational is definitely a step in the right place.
i liked the raven hunter seeker missile patch from HOTS, they should do that infestors, i think fungals and infested terrans should cost a little more but im a terran biased hehe XP
I don't especially see the point in the change at the moment depending on how soon most major leagues are sticking with WoL vs. HotS. I am definitely curious to see what ideas they have for a nerf this time around regardless.
I do agree with the IT nerf, allows infestors to be weaker in the late game when they have so much energy, while only slightly nerfing the mid-game, where they should be most powerful since they are only tier 2.5.
On January 11 2013 08:04 PhoenixVoid wrote: I guess it is somewhat significant, but massing Infestors will still happen, and ITs will still be prevalent in all match-ups. I've always been a proponent of increasing Infestor supply to 3, so massing Infestors would be a tactic that would dent the army supply, rather than simply nerfing Fungal or ITs.
i also liked that idea for quite some time, because massing one unit for a composition is really retarded. But lets be honest, fungal is a boring spell that allows no comeback nor micro, and sc2 has way too many of these anyways. A more fundamental change to that spell would be way better imho.
On January 11 2013 07:50 Laryleprakon wrote: Try having fungal slow and not root, at least try it :/
This gets suggested over and over again, but there is a reason it is not implemented, and the reason are mutas in ZvZ.
then buff the freaking hydra, also something that has been suggested forever. Decrease their size (although this will still mean colossus domination), increase their speed on creep, give them bonus damage vs light or sth like that. They are supposed to shoot air, but they dont counter a single air unit in the game because they are as strong as a stalker, less mobile and tier 2.
non upgrades wold make infested terrans as useless as autoturrets in the late game. Unlike Autoturrets invested Terrans are pretty bad everywhere else though. +2 armor and shield upgrades also disable any building harassment. So yeah sounds like another sneak remove of something, they can't balance. But nothing against testing it.
I dont really know what nerfs they can do besides removing fungal. It would be cool to just have fungal with like 20 dmg . Even like lowering damage would be fine. Or in the case of removing it make it so that neural parasite costs less energy.
I'd prefer an increased cost for ITs. Upping the cost to 30 or 35 would decrease some of the massive IT spammage from 20+ infestors we see late game. 30 energy means 6 per full energy infestor. 35 means 5. Atm its 8.
honestly i think the current nerfs are enough, the new range makes it so that infestors get killed really easily by tanks (more than before) so if a terran pulls back behind tanks (in a ling ultra fight) or stalkers behind collosus, almost all infestors die because they do have target priority.
this makes it very difficult to mass infestors and a low infestor count is possible to manage and really not imbalanced in my opinion.
it's almost pretty much impossible to fungal vikings unless a terran walks into it but that's normal it's called bad micro
we haven't seen a lot of tournaments recently but in gsl and proleague zerg have not been dominating at all what is blizzard thinking??
They nerfed it fine, no one makes 30 infestors anymore cos they will just die more easily to tanks and collosi if they nerf it again zerg will just be trash.
On January 11 2013 07:50 Laryleprakon wrote: Try having fungal slow and not root, at least try it :/
This gets suggested over and over again, but there is a reason it is not implemented, and the reason are mutas in ZvZ.
Ah, so what? Muta-Hydra sounds much more fun than Roach-Infestor. Especially because you would also see most likely more lings.
Mutas are already too strong in ZvZ. If you want to go roach infestor and your opponent is going mutalisk you have to pretty much hard counter mutalisk before being able to scout. Ling muta all ins at your third are already hard enough to stop, and not getting a third before mutas is pretty much a loss considering you have to get infestors and a couple of queens or hydras then push to your third while having enough meat to stop ling baneling.
Please don't ruin this matchup even more, mutas are already too strong it's really dumb right now.
In regards to the discussion on rooting vs slowing, i honestly think (even though it doesn't make sense according to physics) if fungal rooted air only, and slowed ground. The whole reason fungal needs to root is because mutas/phoenix. But as such its too potent against ground units like marines.
not only it's too little and too late.. but.. i am pretty fucking shocked that they are "testing it out in the test map" are you kidding me ? just implement the patch already
I think its a pretty big deal because IT's do 8 damage to all.
With guardian shield (which extends to air) 6 damage. With 3-3 on everything, instead of dealing 5-6 damage to most toss units (base armor), they do 2-3.
Carriers do 5 damage, so it affects them the most, 60% damage increase and it takes 250 shots to kill them now instead of 75, assuming you have 3-3 upgrades.
If you dont, it is a lot less punishing - Comparing 0-0 air to 3-3 zerg, you do 2.5x as much damage because he does not have armor any more (5 instead of 2), and you dont take extra damage because he doesnt have upgrades either.
In regards to the discussion on rooting vs slowing, i honestly think (even though it doesn't make sense according to physics) if fungal rooted air only, and slowed ground. The whole reason fungal needs to root is because mutas/phoenix. But as such its too potent against ground units like marines.
The opposite suggestion was going around for a while, no root on air because it completely removes the possibility of midgame air presence in WOL PvZ
Toss has the Immortal all in the if performed correctly can't be stopped by Zerg, but we better keep nerfing Zerg because clearly since Terran players can't figure out what to do we should just nerf Zerg into the ground. Great logic Blizzard
But seriously, I haven't been more excited for a patch since WoW 3.0.2, this has been wanted by practically everyone in the SC2 community for a very long time, and now it is actually going to happen sometime soon™
I think they should cap ITs similar to spider mines. keep the energy cost but once you shoot 8 ITs that infestor is done casting IT for the rest of the game.
On January 11 2013 10:16 TheFish7 wrote: I think they should cap ITs similar to spider mines. keep the energy cost but once you shoot 8 ITs that infestor is done casting IT for the rest of the game.
I think it should work like carrier - interceptor
where making IT costs energy and infestor can only store 6 IT at any time. plus ejecting IT costs bit of energy as well
I guess infestor should hatch with 2 or 3 IT already stored
I've always thought that the problem with the infestor (balance-wise) was in ZvP and not ZvT and that the problems were in the insta IT army that infestors made possible, not the fungals. I've gotta say I think this change to the ITs would be quite reasonable.
On January 11 2013 07:50 Laryleprakon wrote: Try having fungal slow and not root, at least try it :/
This gets suggested over and over again, but there is a reason it is not implemented, and the reason are mutas in ZvZ.
It's almost like spore crawlers and hydras/queens don't exist.
It's such a bad reason to not change fungal and it's players lack of not wanting to learn how to deal with something differently that causes it to be a problem.
Glad to see that Blizz still cares about the current state of WoL, this should help with the current state of balance and give us less ZvZ-filled WoL tourneys before HotS
On January 11 2013 07:50 Laryleprakon wrote: Try having fungal slow and not root, at least try it :/
This gets suggested over and over again, but there is a reason it is not implemented, and the reason are mutas in ZvZ.
It's almost like spore crawlers and hydras/queens don't exist.
It's such a bad reason to not change fungal and it's players lack of not wanting to learn how to deal with something differently that causes it to be a problem.
Fungal is probably supposed to punish clumping your mass mutalisks just like thors or archons would, not the numbers spores or queens can deal with, particularly consider neither could really be used effectively offensively, perhaps mass hydra though.
Bahahahahahaha! TvZ has been seen as a matchup favoring Zerg 65-35 recently at pro levels, and the solutions so far are some minor changes to ITs and a small fungal change. I'm sure THAT'S what is making Zergs so unbeatable right now.
I'll just repeat what I've said previously - the range nerf wont do shit then Blizz will stall with another useless balance patch until the expansion is out.
So far so good
I just hope that at some point the higher ups at Blizz will realize that neither DB nor DK have been doing a good job for the past year and transfer them to work on WoW expansions or something like that
Changing rules all the time, that's good for a sports, right?
SC2 is NOT a sport. It is an e-sport. Also "a sports" what the hell and youre the one who is a native speaker lolzies :D
Actually I'm not. Thanks for correcting that for me.
But still, constant expansion and balance patches are what make old players fade and fans go away. Every champion will be called patch zerg, toss or terran. It will be very hard to maintain a stable scene after a while.
Just let the community figure it out, stop the balance patches, Blizzard! Community is far smarter than Blizzard.
I always believe BW is much more imbalanced than WOL, it's the community who made it a great competition.
I cannot understand why they dont just change fungal growth. It's like they refuse to fix their massive mistake from the beta. Noone likes being rooted, its stupid unbelievably punishing and kills big game moments. Take it out of the game already! Change to to a snare, a slow, or maybe even keep the root but put it on a timer so you only actually can get rooted every 30 sec, but the dmg component still applies. Anything, just take chain rooted to death crap out of the game. It's so blatantly obvious and for some reason they just REFUSE to fix it, their just dancing around the real issue, and until they fix the root infesters will always be broken in my opinion.
This is coming from a masters + zerg player since the beta ...
making it a slow would be a start. i cannot stop stressing that immobility < low mobility. thats in rts games overall. better games and ten times more fun to watch
On January 11 2013 11:13 Synk wrote: I cannot understand why they dont just change fungal growth. It's like they refuse to fix their massive mistake from the beta. Noone likes being rooted, its stupid unbelievably punishing and kills big game moments. Take it out of the game already! Change to to a snare, a slow, or maybe even keep the root but put it on a timer so you only actually can get rooted every 30 sec, but the dmg component still applies. Anything, just take chain rooted to death crap out of the game. It's so blatantly obvious and for some reason they just REFUSE to fix it, their just dancing around the real issue, and until they fix the root infesters will always be broken in my opinion.
This is coming from a masters + zerg player since the beta ...
I guess 80+% of the community and the players are in that boat. It is frustrating to play against and terrible to watch. People watch Progamers to them Micro, not to see them not Micro. But nerfing the crap out of Intested Terrans is fine with me, too. Makes people build less Infestors and thus use less Fungals, too. And more Muta Ling Baneling which always produces great games. I hate this fucking unit so much, every Nerf of it is good, the more the better, it would be fine with me if they nerfed it to complete unplayability, make it cost 700 Gas.
On January 11 2013 11:04 aksfjh wrote: Bahahahahahaha! TvZ has been seen as a matchup favoring Zerg 65-35 recently at pro levels, and the solutions so far are some minor changes to ITs and a small fungal change. I'm sure THAT'S what is making Zergs so unbeatable right now.
Sometimes range attack is actually prioritized over melee solely for infested terrans, so it doesn't seem like it would be that minor at first (second? third?) glance.
Though I guess it is always possible that Zerg players find more things to do that keep the matchup tipped in that way.
On January 11 2013 11:04 aksfjh wrote: Bahahahahahaha! TvZ has been seen as a matchup favoring Zerg 65-35 recently at pro levels, and the solutions so far are some minor changes to ITs and a small fungal change. I'm sure THAT'S what is making Zergs so unbeatable right now.
Sometimes range attack is actually prioritized over melee solely for infested terrans, so it doesn't seem like it would be that minor at first (second? third?) glance.
Though I guess it is always possible that Zerg players find more things to do that keep the matchup tipped in that way.
marine tank doesn't really fight against IT's much, the main problem is the fungal, not IT
Good change. Infested terran with upgrade are actually stupidly strong, especially in ZvP or in lategame ZvT to kill viking. They hve the msot dps of the whole zerg composition at this point
listen ive seen some very good games with extremely shitty endings like tvz where he just get fungaled and bane'd and then GG...
fungal growth is the shittiest spell of the game.. allowing for 0% micro... even IF they keep that spell in the game it should at least be as it is in HotS - with a projectile...
tbh i never really cared about infested terrans.. they are not as game deciding as fungal can be
On January 11 2013 11:53 MagnuMizer wrote: listen ive seen some very good games with extremely shitty endings like tvz where he just get fungaled and bane'd and then GG...
fungal growth is the shittiest spell of the game.. allowing for 0% micro... even IF they keep that spell in the game it should at least be as it is in HotS - with a projectile...
tbh i never really cared about infested terrans.. they are not as game deciding as fungal can be
Fungal is a too drastic change for WoL right now. Remember HotS is in like 3 months, they can't add the projectile without screwing zerg completly for months. ( even if they deserve it )
I think letting infested terrans not benefit from weapon and armor upgrades is a great decision. Infested terrans will still be reasonably effective in harassment, but not nearly as effective in late game deathball versus deathball scenarios.
I guess I have more faith in infestors than most other people in this thread, maybe because I play zerg. I think they have an important role in helping zerglings and banelings deal with bio and gateway units and reducing reliance on roaches.
However, they're just too strong and versatile right now. Also, as others have mentioned, fungal's immobilization of units is a problem because it denies micro and makes fights less interesting to watch. I think changing fungal to a slow would solve both of these problems fairly effectively.
This would likely make ling muta the dominant composition in zvz, but most would agree that ling muta is more interesting to watch and more micro-intensive than roach hydra infestor. If preserving alternatives to ling muta in zvz is completely necessary, there are possible solutions that could retain the effectiveness of roach hydra infestor. The speed of hydras on creep could be increased to compensate and/or hydra stats could be buffed to allow them to better deal with mutas. Fungal could be changed to a very heavy (~75%) slow that would still shut down clumps of mutas but allow some potential for micro.
You know what would be cool? If Blizzard realized that THEY were the ones that put oil on the flame by buffing queen range. Try reverting it, TvZ will be fixed in a snap and taking away IT upgrades would fix TvP for the most part.
But they never admit their mistakes. That's why we're in this mess 6 months later.
what bothers me about infested terrans is that to me, the most obvious way of attempting to balance them would be to increase their energy cost. and then comes into play the unwritten rule that all resource costs in the starcraft universe must be (as in, they have never not been) in increments of 25. it would be interesting to see how an energy cost of 35 would effect infested terran usage and efficacy. upping it to 50 would destroy the ability.
is there any actual official reasoning behind why game balance design is being hamstringed in this manner?
that said, the idea of making infested terrans unupgradable is not a bad idea either. what i said fits into every other aspect of the game, too.
pretty weak nerf tbh. Not really sure how this is going to discourage players from massing them either. LOL. seriously remember when ghosts where nerfed? Emp radius and snipe damage cut in half. huge nerfs. Now what nerf has the infestor seen? -1 range and a few minor nerfs to infested terrans. OH BOY. seriously I really wish blizzard would treat the races equally.
infestors are still going to be super fucking good. Even without infested terran, zerg player will still mass infestors. Once again blizzard fails to see the fundamental problem with infestors and instead of actually fixing anything they put in some shitty random nerf and cross their fingers that zerg players will stop massing infestors every game.
With this next nerf to infestors, I hope hydralisks get something significant. Zerg can make more timing attack strategies work and mainly just have good anti-air and DPS to compensate.
I don't know. In hots protoss late game air army is broken. Before implementing something like this from beta, they should at least find some kind of balance in beta. There will be some nerfs to toss and/or buffs to zerg. Before they decide on those, taking stuff from beta isn't good idea.
On January 11 2013 12:36 Badfatpanda wrote: You know what would be cool? If Blizzard realized that THEY were the ones that put oil on the flame by buffing queen range. Try reverting it, TvZ will be fixed in a snap and taking away IT upgrades would fix TvP for the most part.
But they never admit their mistakes. That's why we're in this mess 6 months later.
But...what does queen range have to do with late game tvz?
On January 11 2013 12:36 Badfatpanda wrote: You know what would be cool? If Blizzard realized that THEY were the ones that put oil on the flame by buffing queen range. Try reverting it, TvZ will be fixed in a snap and taking away IT upgrades would fix TvP for the most part.
But they never admit their mistakes. That's why we're in this mess 6 months later.
But...what does queen range have to do with late game tvz?
Early game -> Mid game -> End game
They all affect each other , zerg basically skips early and half of the mid game because of queens and the ability to drone really hard
On January 11 2013 12:36 Badfatpanda wrote: You know what would be cool? If Blizzard realized that THEY were the ones that put oil on the flame by buffing queen range. Try reverting it, TvZ will be fixed in a snap and taking away IT upgrades would fix TvP for the most part.
But they never admit their mistakes. That's why we're in this mess 6 months later.
But...what does queen range have to do with late game tvz?
Honestly, I really like IT being a little on the "too much" side. SC2 needs things like that.
I'd rather see another nerf to fungal. Fungal is the issue - boring to watch, boring to use, boring to play against. Like many have stated, I'd rather see it not completely root - but then again, it'd be too much like the Queen's ensnare from BW. And we all know Blizz is doing their best not to reuse BW spells and have SC2 different.
Hey I know people are like taxed out on infestor ideas and such... and this might not be the best place to post it, but after some deep thought, I came up with a change for infestors that would still make them useful, but not op. Instead of damaging the units fungaled... the units fungaled are unable to output damage (or a reduction). This way zerg can stop drops, protect bls, slow/trap armies, and the infestors design wouldn't be significantly changed, however this would require zerg to bring other units to kill off fungaled things (perhaps Infested Ts can't shoot fungaled stuff), and also the opponent can bring his army in a position to save the fungaled units, yet have to be positioned in such a way that more of their army is not fungaled. With this change things can no longer be fungaled to death and would require the Z to do more than just spam fungals. Also this way a ridiculous amount of infestors won't be as viable, because they are doing no damage. I think it would be fun to watch a Z army and a T army converge on a group of fungaled units. I think this type of positional game-play is fun to watch and can help separate pro/amateurs.
On January 11 2013 13:03 FabledIntegral wrote: Honestly, I really like IT being a little on the "too much" side. SC2 needs things like that.
while i certainly would agree with that statement to an extent, do you think infested terrans offer potential for interesting gameplay? i would argue it's an even more boring skill than fungal growth is, i have not once seen myself go "wow, those are some really nice infested terrans! yowch!" and i really can't imagine that happening any time soon. that's the kind of skill i would argue could/should be situationally powerful, but definitely not race defining or "too much".
On January 11 2013 13:03 FabledIntegral wrote: Honestly, I really like IT being a little on the "too much" side. SC2 needs things like that.
I'd rather see another nerf to fungal. Fungal is the issue - boring to watch, boring to use, boring to play against. Like many have stated, I'd rather see it not completely root - but then again, it'd be too much like the Queen's ensnare from BW. And we all know Blizz is doing their best not to reuse BW spells and have SC2 different.
They already have so many parallels with HotS to BW yet they say they want a different game. :I Sooooooo many parallels.
On January 11 2013 09:58 Cyro wrote: The opposite suggestion was going around for a while, no root on air because it completely removes the possibility of midgame air presence in WOL PvZ
I have never understood this argument. Protoss air sucks, period. Do you ever see Protoss air in PvT? Never. In PvP? Yeah once every 10 game or so, for the most part as a mind game. Prior to 4-gate nerf Protoss air was non-existent in PvP even more so than in PvT.
P uses a lot more variety of units in PvZ than in PvT or PvP. I don't understand why P players don't demand better air against T and in mirror matches as well, not just in PvZ.
On January 11 2013 13:03 FabledIntegral wrote: Honestly, I really like IT being a little on the "too much" side. SC2 needs things like that.
while i certainly would agree with that statement to an extent, do you think infested terrans offer potential for interesting gameplay? i would argue it's an even more boring skill than fungal growth is, i have not once seen myself go "wow, those are some really nice infested terrans! yowch!" and i really can't imagine that happening any time soon. that's the kind of skill i would argue could/should be situationally powerful, but definitely not race defining or "too much".
I think it offers a ton of depth in how they are used. They draw fire. They have a delay in how long it takes to spawn. It requires a ton of effort to spam a bunch at once (which could be used elsewhere), so you have to decide if it's worth it. At the same time it leads into queing them up having a bunch more potential, which is decision making, and they can be used when infestors are burrowed, adding depth to burrow play.
On the flip side, it forces a decision out of your opponent. Do I engage the IT? If I just move away, the IT will die from limited time. But we all know it's not that simple, sometimes you need to engage, sometimes you've committed, sometimes you need to save a CC from burning down, sometimes you simply can't retreat due to Zerg's other units.
IT offer a lot more to the game than people give it credit for. I can't imagine how you can think fungal is more interesting.
I think Infestors should be changed so that it only slows the unit that got fungaled, and not do a full root and making everything immobile. The Infested Terran change is good as well, but not enough imo because at the end of the day, they are free units. Fungals + Infested Terrans in a max fight is just deadly as it provides a lot of DPS.
What you should do is revert the Queen patch, and go from Queen range from 5 to 4 or even back to 3. Right now, Zerg is completely skipping the early and mid game and heading straight for the late game. Zerg late game is pretty much impossible to beat.
I think what they're worried about is the final WoL GSL with 7 Z's in Ro8 (or something in that vein). They're worried about getting bad PR right before the new game hits. (Blizzard can't balance their games!) Someone higher-up must have tapped D. Kim's shoulders and said "Hey, it'd be great we could show off how we can make balanced games before the launch of the sequel!" And startled D. Kim feels anxious about his job security. Rofl.
Kind of lame and pathetic attempt to punish players for Blizzard's short-term business profit.
On January 11 2013 12:36 Badfatpanda wrote: You know what would be cool? If Blizzard realized that THEY were the ones that put oil on the flame by buffing queen range. Try reverting it, TvZ will be fixed in a snap and taking away IT upgrades would fix TvP for the most part.
But they never admit their mistakes. That's why we're in this mess 6 months later.
But...what does queen range have to do with late game tvz?
Early game -> Mid game -> End game
They all affect each other , zerg basically skips early and half of the mid game because of queens and the ability to drone really hard
I know but when both players are maxed out and on even footing, it won't make any difference.
On January 11 2013 12:36 Badfatpanda wrote: You know what would be cool? If Blizzard realized that THEY were the ones that put oil on the flame by buffing queen range. Try reverting it, TvZ will be fixed in a snap and taking away IT upgrades would fix TvP for the most part.
But they never admit their mistakes. That's why we're in this mess 6 months later.
But...what does queen range have to do with late game tvz?
Early game -> Mid game -> End game
They all affect each other , zerg basically skips early and half of the mid game because of queens and the ability to drone really hard
I know but when both players are maxed out and on even footing, it won't make any difference.
Of course it does.... how you got there is entirely relevant.
On January 11 2013 13:03 FabledIntegral wrote: Honestly, I really like IT being a little on the "too much" side. SC2 needs things like that.
while i certainly would agree with that statement to an extent, do you think infested terrans offer potential for interesting gameplay? i would argue it's an even more boring skill than fungal growth is, i have not once seen myself go "wow, those are some really nice infested terrans! yowch!" and i really can't imagine that happening any time soon. that's the kind of skill i would argue could/should be situationally powerful, but definitely not race defining or "too much".
I think it offers a ton of depth in how they are used. They draw fire. They have a delay in how long it takes to spawn. It requires a ton of effort to spam a bunch at once (which could be used elsewhere), so you have to decide if it's worth it. At the same time it leads into queing them up having a bunch more potential, which is decision making, and they can be used when infestors are burrowed, adding depth to burrow play.
On the flip side, it forces a decision out of your opponent. Do I engage the IT? If I just move away, the IT will die from limited time. But we all know it's not that simple, sometimes you need to engage, sometimes you've committed, sometimes you need to save a CC from burning down, sometimes you simply can't retreat due to Zerg's other units.
IT offer a lot more to the game than people give it credit for. I can't imagine how you can think fungal is more interesting.
quite easily, but then again, agree to disagree. the part about infested terran spam taking mechanical effort, that's not true at all as long as you have a scroll wheel on your mouse. instant energy dump if that's what you want. not sure what the official stance on that is in tournaments though, heard both that it's legit and forbidden. even so, i would not exactly agree that it takes a ton of effort, or even a decent amount of it, to IT energy dump normally. i can click something like 10-15 times per second easily, that's 250-375 energy used per second. and i'm far from a professional 5000apm korean. (e: 100 clicks in 7,5 seconds with maybe 60 of em in the first 3,5)
from a spectator perspective, i don't know if anyone could watch some of the infestor heavy endgame zvz's and not go "wow, this is some bullshit" and alt-tabbing away when (almost) all that happens is mountains of IT colliding until the game ends . this coming from someone who has never thought anything of the sort about like any game ever as far as i can recall. i don't think fungal at its current form is an interesting skill, but i think it's possible to balance it to not be a boring one. either by tweaking the numbers or by more drastically changing how it works. infested terrans, not so much.
And please stop this nonsense about changing fungal to "slow". They're not Sorceresses. Fungal used to have double the time of root effect prior to getting damage buff. No one complained about "root" at that time. imagine that. The whole thing is a difficult mess to sort out because without fungal damage Z had no answer to upgraded mass marines and mass blink stalkers, even with broods or ultras. (Do people forget so easily?)
Besides which, how many units do you think you can save against fast Z units if your units are 50% slowed? How many units can you safely bring back home when you lose a battle and marauders are chasing you? The theorecrafting that people conjure up is simply stunning, for its silliness.
The problem is that with the damage buff of fungals, Z players discovered infested terrans are awesome damage dealers and damage soakers, thus started massing them. Changing infested terrans is probably the right first move.
On January 11 2013 12:36 Badfatpanda wrote: You know what would be cool? If Blizzard realized that THEY were the ones that put oil on the flame by buffing queen range. Try reverting it, TvZ will be fixed in a snap and taking away IT upgrades would fix TvP for the most part.
But they never admit their mistakes. That's why we're in this mess 6 months later.
But...what does queen range have to do with late game tvz?
Early game -> Mid game -> End game
They all affect each other , zerg basically skips early and half of the mid game because of queens and the ability to drone really hard
I know but when both players are maxed out and on even footing, it won't make any difference.
That is too simplistic view. The early game advantages snowballs into the mid game and then into the late game. As an extreme example, let's say marines automatically have stim/combat shields/+3/+3 from the beginning of the game. You could say it won't matter late game because they would have those upgrades in 200/200 battles anyways. But of course, it would have a huge effect to game balance.
I wish they would make fungal only slow but not disable movement.. or take it out of the game and design a spell better for competitive play. fungals are boring!
On January 11 2013 13:27 usethis2 wrote: And please stop this nonsense about changing fungal to "slow". They're not Sorceresses. Fungal used to have double the time of root effect prior to getting damage buff. No one complained about "root" at that time. imagine that. The whole thing is a difficult mess to sort out because without fungal damage Z had no answer to upgraded mass marines and mass blink stalkers, even with broods or ultras. (Do people forget so easily?)
Besides which, how many units do you think you can save against fast Z units if your units are 50% slowed? How many units can you safely bring back home when you lose a battle and marauders are chasing you? The theorecrafting that people conjure up is simply stunning, for its silliness.
The problem is that with the damage buff of fungals, Z players discovered infested terrans are awesome damage dealers and damage soakers, thus started massing them. Changing infested terrans is probably the right first move.
Well, one of the reasons why people have suggested slow is for the air units. Let say you get 10 vikings clumped and you get caught with a fungal, there is no way to spread out your vikings to avoid the chain fungal. And that is just too punishing.
On January 11 2013 12:36 Badfatpanda wrote: You know what would be cool? If Blizzard realized that THEY were the ones that put oil on the flame by buffing queen range. Try reverting it, TvZ will be fixed in a snap and taking away IT upgrades would fix TvP for the most part.
But they never admit their mistakes. That's why we're in this mess 6 months later.
But...what does queen range have to do with late game tvz?
Early game -> Mid game -> End game
They all affect each other , zerg basically skips early and half of the mid game because of queens and the ability to drone really hard
I know but when both players are maxed out and on even footing, it won't make any difference.
Are you trolling ? Zerg remax faster and Zerg lategame army composition infester bl > Terran race
It is a little to late and for the reasons I mentioned in the earlier post (quoted below) I'm opposed to it, but if they must, the direction seems to be right. From what I can see, Z players do not amass 20 infestors for fungals. It seems like 80%+ of infestor energy goes to IT's, not fungals. If it was fungals, Z players would not make more than 10 infestors.
On January 11 2013 13:17 usethis2 wrote: I think what they're worried about is the final WoL GSL with 7 Z's in Ro8 (or something in that vein). They're worried about getting bad PR right before the new game hits. (Blizzard can't balance their games!) Someone higher-up must have tapped D. Kim's shoulders and said "Hey, it'd be great we could show off how we can make balanced games before the launch of the sequel!" And startled D. Kim feels anxious about his job security. Rofl.
Kind of lame and pathetic attempt to punish players for Blizzard's short-term business profit.
On January 11 2013 13:33 VillageBC wrote: I wish they would leave Infestors alone. It's not like Zerg has other tools in it's arsenal to use.
As a Zerg, I would rather see Zerg lose in an interesting way than win in a boring one. Infestors need to be butchered to make the game fun to watch/play again, and at this point i don't even care if it makes Zerg UP.
Also stop this smurfing "As an X player, I want to see X's units nerfed" Unless the person is semi-public persona, I don't believe anyone claiming such identity. I believe others share the same sentiment.
On January 11 2013 13:33 VillageBC wrote: I wish they would leave Infestors alone. It's not like Zerg has other tools in it's arsenal to use.
As a Zerg, I would rather see Zerg lose in an interesting way than win in a boring one. Infestors need to be butchered to make the game fun to watch/play again, and at this point i don't even care if it makes Zerg UP.
Well for WoL I think they just want to quickly patch something for infestors to stop people only bitching about tournaments until HotS. People keep crying about a fungal slow, and though I like that idea, it won't happen in WoL. Infestor upgrades are an easy implemented patch. Could literally take a programmer 60 seconds to implement and testing would be incredibly straight forward with a 1 dimensional patch. Fungal slow would potentially have mechanical considerations and changes to gameplay beyond the testing, release and maintenance breadth of WoL.
I also wouldn't mind seeing infestors take a big hit, because then they can spend some time fixing issues with other units that have struggled in WoL (Hydras, Ultras). The same could be applied to units in other races too as if certain units were toned down notably issues with other units would be more easily addressed.
Maybe. Balance is a funny thing. Despite all the internet balance champions it's not like changing fungal would "fix the game". Blizzard, from what I've seen in HotS patches, are actually doing the right thing in the beta from my impression. Trying a lot of different things, getting data. People see every single patch and go "Oh my god if this is how HotS is going to be it's so stupid. DKim and DBrowder are clearly directly responsible as Creative Directors, Game Balance Designers, Quality Assurance Managers, CEOs, etc and should be fired."
I just wish the majority of TL was smarter about how balance happens. Not to say Blizzard is doing it perfectly, because I think they've stuffed up. But I'd still prefer them at the helm over most posts. [/endminirant]
Wonderful. Not because they're overpowered (honestly, I don't care about that aspect of things), but because they lead to the most uninteresting and uninspired games known to man.
Fungal should be a move intended to let your Banelings hit, and Infested Terrans should never have been introduced in the first place. Such a terribly designed unit. Can't wait until HotS, when Zerg gets another caster that looks to actually be interesting.
On January 11 2013 13:27 usethis2 wrote: And please stop this nonsense about changing fungal to "slow". They're not Sorceresses. Fungal used to have double the time of root effect prior to getting damage buff. No one complained about "root" at that time. imagine that. The whole thing is a difficult mess to sort out because without fungal damage Z had no answer to upgraded mass marines and mass blink stalkers, even with broods or ultras. (Do people forget so easily?)
Besides which, how many units do you think you can save against fast Z units if your units are 50% slowed? How many units can you safely bring back home when you lose a battle and marauders are chasing you? The theorecrafting that people conjure up is simply stunning, for its silliness.
The problem is that with the damage buff of fungals, Z players discovered infested terrans are awesome damage dealers and damage soakers, thus started massing them. Changing infested terrans is probably the right first move.
Fruitdealer was an early pioneer of infestors. When he fungaled units, he often did so for specific reasons. He would fungal groups of marines so they could be easily killed with banelings, fungal tanks so they could not unsiege during drops, fungal medivacs so they could not escape mutas.
I think people didn't complain about infestors before the damage buff for two main reasons: because infestors had only recently begin to see significant use, and because they were used for more specific reasons as opposed to their nearly ubiquitous use today. Because infestors are now almost always used in the mid-late game of every matchup, the problems with an area of effect immobilization spell are more clear.
If fungal was a slow, it would still hard counter mass marines and mass blink stalkers. Fungal wouldn't stop preventing blink, and marines and stalkers would still take massive damage even if they were spread to reduce the effectiveness of future fungals. Ling baneling infestor would still demolish mass marine because a slow would greatly reduce the effectiveness of stutter step and splitting micro and if marines remained clumped, they would easily die to fungal and baneling damage.
Fungal would remain a strong spell if it were a 50%+ slow, I don't think anyone doubts that. Fungal would continue to prevent units from retreating from a battle.
The problem, in my opinion, is that once units are fungaled, there is nothing an opponent can do to reduce the effectiveness of chain fungals. For example, if fungal were a 50% slow, you wouldn't have a situation in which a clump of phoenix harassing a zerg's mineral line are fungaled and unable to escape before they are all chain fungaled to death.
If fungal were a slow, players would have a choice. Hold their ground and continue attacking, or attempt to reposition their units to fare better against banelings, ultras, and/or further fungals. Often, this would not be much of a choice, and fungaled units would behave more or less the same as they currently do. In many cases, however, it would allow players to combat fungal with strong micro.
On January 11 2013 14:15 usethis2 wrote: Also stop this smurfing "As an X player, I want to see X's units nerfed" Unless the person is semi-public persona, I don't believe anyone claiming such identity. I believe others share the same sentiment.
Of course, since obviously winning random ladder games > having a fun-to-play and fun-to-watch game.
On January 11 2013 13:27 usethis2 wrote: And please stop this nonsense about changing fungal to "slow". They're not Sorceresses. Fungal used to have double the time of root effect prior to getting damage buff. No one complained about "root" at that time. imagine that. The whole thing is a difficult mess to sort out because without fungal damage Z had no answer to upgraded mass marines and mass blink stalkers, even with broods or ultras. (Do people forget so easily?)
Besides which, how many units do you think you can save against fast Z units if your units are 50% slowed? How many units can you safely bring back home when you lose a battle and marauders are chasing you? The theorecrafting that people conjure up is simply stunning, for its silliness.
The problem is that with the damage buff of fungals, Z players discovered infested terrans are awesome damage dealers and damage soakers, thus started massing them. Changing infested terrans is probably the right first move.
The reason why it should be changed to slow or just taken out completely is because it is incredibly boring to watch and play when one of the players is not allowed to micro at all once fungal goes off. And obviously if this happened (which I think needs to happen) zerg would have to be compensated in a different huge way, maybe not even through a slow or root.
On January 11 2013 13:03 FabledIntegral wrote: Honestly, I really like IT being a little on the "too much" side. SC2 needs things like that.
while i certainly would agree with that statement to an extent, do you think infested terrans offer potential for interesting gameplay? i would argue it's an even more boring skill than fungal growth is, i have not once seen myself go "wow, those are some really nice infested terrans! yowch!" and i really can't imagine that happening any time soon. that's the kind of skill i would argue could/should be situationally powerful, but definitely not race defining or "too much".
I think it offers a ton of depth in how they are used. They draw fire. They have a delay in how long it takes to spawn. It requires a ton of effort to spam a bunch at once (which could be used elsewhere), so you have to decide if it's worth it. At the same time it leads into queing them up having a bunch more potential, which is decision making, and they can be used when infestors are burrowed, adding depth to burrow play.
On the flip side, it forces a decision out of your opponent. Do I engage the IT? If I just move away, the IT will die from limited time. But we all know it's not that simple, sometimes you need to engage, sometimes you've committed, sometimes you need to save a CC from burning down, sometimes you simply can't retreat due to Zerg's other units.
IT offer a lot more to the game than people give it credit for. I can't imagine how you can think fungal is more interesting.
quite easily, but then again, agree to disagree. the part about infested terran spam taking mechanical effort, that's not true at all as long as you have a scroll wheel on your mouse. instant energy dump if that's what you want. not sure what the official stance on that is in tournaments though, heard both that it's legit and forbidden. even so, i would not exactly agree that it takes a ton of effort, or even a decent amount of it, to IT energy dump normally. i can click something like 10-15 times per second easily, that's 250-375 energy used per second. and i'm far from a professional 5000apm korean. (e: 100 clicks in 7,5 seconds with maybe 60 of em in the first 3,5)
from a spectator perspective, i don't know if anyone could watch some of the infestor heavy endgame zvz's and not go "wow, this is some bullshit" and alt-tabbing away when (almost) all that happens is mountains of IT colliding until the game ends . this coming from someone who has never thought anything of the sort about like any game ever as far as i can recall. i don't think fungal at its current form is an interesting skill, but i think it's possible to balance it to not be a boring one. either by tweaking the numbers or by more drastically changing how it works. infested terrans, not so much.
Scroll wheel isn't allowed in any tournament because there's no way to naturally set the scroll bar as a key. Maybe if you're talking about a local LAN.... but it's not really relevant and I don't seem to encounter many players on ladder that do it anyways. I'm not really taking that into consideration. If people want to go around the rules because they can.... kinda hard to stop. It's remotely akin to maphacking.
End game ZvZ is indeed garbage but it's the least likely of the ZvX MUs to go there. And honestly if fungal were nerfed enough you wouldn't mass that many infestors in the first place to eventually use IT.... so that point is kinda moot haha.
On January 11 2013 13:03 FabledIntegral wrote: Honestly, I really like IT being a little on the "too much" side. SC2 needs things like that.
while i certainly would agree with that statement to an extent, do you think infested terrans offer potential for interesting gameplay? i would argue it's an even more boring skill than fungal growth is, i have not once seen myself go "wow, those are some really nice infested terrans! yowch!" and i really can't imagine that happening any time soon. that's the kind of skill i would argue could/should be situationally powerful, but definitely not race defining or "too much".
I think it offers a ton of depth in how they are used. They draw fire. They have a delay in how long it takes to spawn. It requires a ton of effort to spam a bunch at once (which could be used elsewhere), so you have to decide if it's worth it. At the same time it leads into queing them up having a bunch more potential, which is decision making, and they can be used when infestors are burrowed, adding depth to burrow play.
On the flip side, it forces a decision out of your opponent. Do I engage the IT? If I just move away, the IT will die from limited time. But we all know it's not that simple, sometimes you need to engage, sometimes you've committed, sometimes you need to save a CC from burning down, sometimes you simply can't retreat due to Zerg's other units.
IT offer a lot more to the game than people give it credit for. I can't imagine how you can think fungal is more interesting.
quite easily, but then again, agree to disagree. the part about infested terran spam taking mechanical effort, that's not true at all as long as you have a scroll wheel on your mouse. instant energy dump if that's what you want. not sure what the official stance on that is in tournaments though, heard both that it's legit and forbidden. even so, i would not exactly agree that it takes a ton of effort, or even a decent amount of it, to IT energy dump normally. i can click something like 10-15 times per second easily, that's 250-375 energy used per second. and i'm far from a professional 5000apm korean. (e: 100 clicks in 7,5 seconds with maybe 60 of em in the first 3,5)
from a spectator perspective, i don't know if anyone could watch some of the infestor heavy endgame zvz's and not go "wow, this is some bullshit" and alt-tabbing away when (almost) all that happens is mountains of IT colliding until the game ends . this coming from someone who has never thought anything of the sort about like any game ever as far as i can recall. i don't think fungal at its current form is an interesting skill, but i think it's possible to balance it to not be a boring one. either by tweaking the numbers or by more drastically changing how it works. infested terrans, not so much.
Scroll wheel isn't allowed in any tournament because there's no way to naturally set the scroll bar as a key. Maybe if you're talking about a local LAN.... but it's not really relevant and I don't seem to encounter many players on ladder that do it anyways. I'm not really taking that into consideration. If people want to go around the rules because they can.... kinda hard to stop. It's remotely akin to maphacking.
this i was not familiar with. doesn't change that spamming infested terrans the normal way is far from time or micro intensive, two seconds should be more than enough to a professional player to get their shit done in almost any situation imaginable. at the same time ITs can be used effectively from a very long range and they (can) effectively provide a wall of defense. i'm open to entertain the idea of infested terrans being difficult to use, but i'd be surprised if any other readers of this thread would ditto you if that's what you're saying.
End game ZvZ is indeed garbage but it's the least likely of the ZvX MUs to go there. And honestly if fungal were nerfed enough you wouldn't mass that many infestors in the first place to eventually use IT.... so that point is kinda moot haha.
it's actually a pretty important point when we're talking about the inherent possibilities of strategic depth and gameplay diversity offered by a single skill, which i claimed are close to nonexistent to support my opinion of infested terrans being a horrible skill to define zerg strategically. which was a response to you saying you liked the fact that they were "too much". ignoring this by adding an "if" is not a way to carry a discussion.
Adding a ½-1s gap where units cannot be re-fungalled seems like an option too. At least for PvZ! But their suggested fix is good as well, since a shitton infested terrans can be spawned all the time with enough infestors. no armor/damage boost makes it somewhat easier to deal with.
On January 11 2013 13:03 FabledIntegral wrote: Honestly, I really like IT being a little on the "too much" side. SC2 needs things like that.
while i certainly would agree with that statement to an extent, do you think infested terrans offer potential for interesting gameplay? i would argue it's an even more boring skill than fungal growth is, i have not once seen myself go "wow, those are some really nice infested terrans! yowch!" and i really can't imagine that happening any time soon. that's the kind of skill i would argue could/should be situationally powerful, but definitely not race defining or "too much".
I think it offers a ton of depth in how they are used. They draw fire. They have a delay in how long it takes to spawn. It requires a ton of effort to spam a bunch at once (which could be used elsewhere), so you have to decide if it's worth it. At the same time it leads into queing them up having a bunch more potential, which is decision making, and they can be used when infestors are burrowed, adding depth to burrow play.
On the flip side, it forces a decision out of your opponent. Do I engage the IT? If I just move away, the IT will die from limited time. But we all know it's not that simple, sometimes you need to engage, sometimes you've committed, sometimes you need to save a CC from burning down, sometimes you simply can't retreat due to Zerg's other units.
IT offer a lot more to the game than people give it credit for. I can't imagine how you can think fungal is more interesting.
quite easily, but then again, agree to disagree. the part about infested terran spam taking mechanical effort, that's not true at all as long as you have a scroll wheel on your mouse. instant energy dump if that's what you want. not sure what the official stance on that is in tournaments though, heard both that it's legit and forbidden. even so, i would not exactly agree that it takes a ton of effort, or even a decent amount of it, to IT energy dump normally. i can click something like 10-15 times per second easily, that's 250-375 energy used per second. and i'm far from a professional 5000apm korean. (e: 100 clicks in 7,5 seconds with maybe 60 of em in the first 3,5)
from a spectator perspective, i don't know if anyone could watch some of the infestor heavy endgame zvz's and not go "wow, this is some bullshit" and alt-tabbing away when (almost) all that happens is mountains of IT colliding until the game ends . this coming from someone who has never thought anything of the sort about like any game ever as far as i can recall. i don't think fungal at its current form is an interesting skill, but i think it's possible to balance it to not be a boring one. either by tweaking the numbers or by more drastically changing how it works. infested terrans, not so much.
Scroll wheel isn't allowed in any tournament because there's no way to naturally set the scroll bar as a key. Maybe if you're talking about a local LAN.... but it's not really relevant and I don't seem to encounter many players on ladder that do it anyways. I'm not really taking that into consideration. If people want to go around the rules because they can.... kinda hard to stop. It's remotely akin to maphacking.
this i was not familiar with. doesn't change that spamming infested terrans the normal way is far from time or micro intensive, two seconds should be more than enough to a professional player to get their shit done in almost any situation imaginable. at the same time ITs can be used effectively from a very long range and they (can) effectively provide a wall of defense. i'm open to entertain the idea of infested terrans being difficult to use, but i'd be surprised if any other readers of this thread would ditto you if that's what you're saying.
End game ZvZ is indeed garbage but it's the least likely of the ZvX MUs to go there. And honestly if fungal were nerfed enough you wouldn't mass that many infestors in the first place to eventually use IT.... so that point is kinda moot haha.
it's actually a pretty important point when we're talking about the inherent possibilities of strategic depth and gameplay diversity offered by a single skill, which i claimed are close to nonexistent to support my opinion of infested terrans being a horrible skill to define zerg strategically. which was a response to you saying you liked the fact that they were "too much". ignoring this by adding an "if" is not a way to carry a discussion.
Spamming IT is incredibly time consuming, takes far more than 2 seconds to accomplish, and can be used for many tactical purposes, especially with infestor burrowed play.
I'm not saying they are hard to use necessarily. I'm saying they add some depth to the game, at least relatively to fungal. The different ways in which they can be utilized add a lot more than you're giving them credit for, in the ways I outlined in my previous post. They have tons of various different utility and force decision making, choices, harassment opportunities, etc. Fungal generally does not do this. IT adds more depth than the vast majority of spells, I can't really see your points here.
Concerning ZvZ, its' simply a rare occurrence (although admittedly getting less rare). Is it still an issue? Absolutely. I meant it was a moot point because I assumed we were already accepting the premise that the infestor is getting nerfed due to this thread. If it is, whether fungal or IT gets nerfed, it will directly nerf infestors in ZvZ, meaning that in both situations at least the IT spam will get somewhat toned down.
On January 11 2013 13:03 FabledIntegral wrote: Honestly, I really like IT being a little on the "too much" side. SC2 needs things like that.
while i certainly would agree with that statement to an extent, do you think infested terrans offer potential for interesting gameplay? i would argue it's an even more boring skill than fungal growth is, i have not once seen myself go "wow, those are some really nice infested terrans! yowch!" and i really can't imagine that happening any time soon. that's the kind of skill i would argue could/should be situationally powerful, but definitely not race defining or "too much".
I think it offers a ton of depth in how they are used. They draw fire. They have a delay in how long it takes to spawn. It requires a ton of effort to spam a bunch at once (which could be used elsewhere), so you have to decide if it's worth it. At the same time it leads into queing them up having a bunch more potential, which is decision making, and they can be used when infestors are burrowed, adding depth to burrow play.
On the flip side, it forces a decision out of your opponent. Do I engage the IT? If I just move away, the IT will die from limited time. But we all know it's not that simple, sometimes you need to engage, sometimes you've committed, sometimes you need to save a CC from burning down, sometimes you simply can't retreat due to Zerg's other units.
IT offer a lot more to the game than people give it credit for. I can't imagine how you can think fungal is more interesting.
quite easily, but then again, agree to disagree. the part about infested terran spam taking mechanical effort, that's not true at all as long as you have a scroll wheel on your mouse. instant energy dump if that's what you want. not sure what the official stance on that is in tournaments though, heard both that it's legit and forbidden. even so, i would not exactly agree that it takes a ton of effort, or even a decent amount of it, to IT energy dump normally. i can click something like 10-15 times per second easily, that's 250-375 energy used per second. and i'm far from a professional 5000apm korean. (e: 100 clicks in 7,5 seconds with maybe 60 of em in the first 3,5)
from a spectator perspective, i don't know if anyone could watch some of the infestor heavy endgame zvz's and not go "wow, this is some bullshit" and alt-tabbing away when (almost) all that happens is mountains of IT colliding until the game ends . this coming from someone who has never thought anything of the sort about like any game ever as far as i can recall. i don't think fungal at its current form is an interesting skill, but i think it's possible to balance it to not be a boring one. either by tweaking the numbers or by more drastically changing how it works. infested terrans, not so much.
Scroll wheel isn't allowed in any tournament because there's no way to naturally set the scroll bar as a key. Maybe if you're talking about a local LAN.... but it's not really relevant and I don't seem to encounter many players on ladder that do it anyways. I'm not really taking that into consideration. If people want to go around the rules because they can.... kinda hard to stop. It's remotely akin to maphacking.
this i was not familiar with. doesn't change that spamming infested terrans the normal way is far from time or micro intensive, two seconds should be more than enough to a professional player to get their shit done in almost any situation imaginable. at the same time ITs can be used effectively from a very long range and they (can) effectively provide a wall of defense. i'm open to entertain the idea of infested terrans being difficult to use, but i'd be surprised if any other readers of this thread would ditto you if that's what you're saying.
End game ZvZ is indeed garbage but it's the least likely of the ZvX MUs to go there. And honestly if fungal were nerfed enough you wouldn't mass that many infestors in the first place to eventually use IT.... so that point is kinda moot haha.
it's actually a pretty important point when we're talking about the inherent possibilities of strategic depth and gameplay diversity offered by a single skill, which i claimed are close to nonexistent to support my opinion of infested terrans being a horrible skill to define zerg strategically. which was a response to you saying you liked the fact that they were "too much". ignoring this by adding an "if" is not a way to carry a discussion.
Spamming IT is incredibly time consuming, takes far more than 2 seconds to accomplish, and can be used for many tactical purposes, especially with infestor burrowed play.
that is not exactly a thing you can agree or disagree on without knowing you're right, so i guess that makes two of us that know what's up but are saying the exact opposite.
I'm saying they add some depth to the game, at least relatively to fungal.
and i'm saying the potential of fungal growth being an interesting skill is there when it's balanced properly. i can't see infested terrans ever not being boring as long as they are a defining part of zerg gameplay. again, this is just an argument of yes's and no's from there on out, and i don't think you're really talking about the same thing as i am.
Infestors without broodlords are a joke, so is it realy the infestor wich is the problem? Nerving infested terrans isnt going to do much. It will prevent the base whipe out by buried infestors (cannons should prevent this easily also) but when infestors cast infested terrans in a battle the opponent usually falls back, and then it does not realy matter if the infested have upgrades or not. Not sure this gonna make a big difference.
Fungal should not hit air, makes no sense to grow fungi up in the air annyway. Corruptor is good enough anti air, and then also got hydra queen muta and infested terran.
They're nerfing in the wrong direction. Infested terrans have potential to be interesting, with uses like harass, redirecting tank shots, and providing positional anti-air. Fungal's options are more limited, and far less entertaining to watch.
The HotS projectile helps somewhat, but nobody likes to watch a skillful player get shut down by a simple fungal chain.
Blizzard are looking directly at infestors because it's convenient and easy to do so.
If you would ask me, I'd say all of Terran T3, Protoss T1/Gateway mechanics and Fungal growth (on its own - lets face it, it's an anti-esports spell) needs a complete reworking but that would be too daunting to Blizzard these days..
On January 11 2013 16:12 cozzE wrote: Blizzard are looking directly at infestors because it's convenient and easy to do so.
If you would ask me, I'd say all of Terran T3, Protoss T1/Gateway mechanics and Fungal growth (on its own - lets face it, it's an anti-esports spell) needs a complete reworking but that would be too daunting to Blizzard these days..
Make BW 2.0 execpt with automine, many HotS abilities/units are like BW anyway :I
This is a silly nerf. ZvT is the only thing that needs fixing right now, and the raven change should have been enough to merit the use of at least 1 raven to prevent infested terran bombs on tanks. Nerfing ITs does almost nothing in the ZvT matchup, while altering ZvZ and ZvP in a manner that seems unnecessary.
It'll be interesting to see if it does what they want. In my experience of TvZ (low league, but still), infested terrans have not been as much an issue as fungal growth. But if this leads to better competition between the pros, then that is what should be the focus, not changing the game after some newbie like myself.
If this doesn't work, perhaps making the fungal growth cost more energy could be a solution? Watching games with so many fungals is just so very, very dull.
Still think it's weird if something with the tag "unit" doesnt get upgrades. Would much rather prefer a direct damage nerf like -2 or something along those lines. Apart from that: right direction, right issue, good job if this goes through
I always lol at people saying Fungal is an anti-I sport mechanics when FF isn't.
It's a darn good spell you don't like used agains you, that's all. And there is no way for Z to win a 200/200 battle without it. Have you tried to ling bane muta against a 200/200 bio ball/toss ball ? Just does not work. And the reason you don't stay on ling bane muta is that if the player is smart enough, he turtles up to 200/200 and outright kills you.
So a reasonable nerf of Infest or Infest/BL that would target specifically the late game would be appreciated (ie. nerf infest size, population). A nerf changing the mid/mid late game would just kill the Z.
That is why Bli² is struggling right now. IT nerf seems a decent option.
On January 11 2013 21:19 hfsrj wrote: I always lol at people saying Fungal is an anti-I sport mechanics when FF isn't.
It's a darn good spell you don't like used agains you, that's all. And there is no way for Z to win a 200/200 battle without it. Have you tried to ling bane muta against a 200/200 bio ball/toss ball ? Just does not work. And the reason you don't stay on ling bane muta is that if the player is smart enough, he turtles up to 200/200 and outright kills you.
So a reasonable nerf of Infest or Infest/BL that would target specifically the late game would be appreciated (ie. nerf infest size, population). A nerf changing the mid/mid late game would just kill the Z.
That is why Bli² is struggling right now. IT nerf seems a decent option.
ling/bling/muta was always about the speed of the units, harassing, catching the opponent out of position. It's not designed to run into a 200/200 army heads on.
I still think making fungal slow, not outright immobilize units would be interesting. It would at least add depth to the micro involved, whereas now people will either use ITs if they're still strong enough, or never use them at all.
I also don't see how only slowing is a problem with mutas in ZvZ, as someone posted earlier.
On January 11 2013 21:19 hfsrj wrote: I always lol at people saying Fungal is an anti-I sport mechanics when FF isn't.
It's a darn good spell you don't like used agains you, that's all. And there is no way for Z to win a 200/200 battle without it. Have you tried to ling bane muta against a 200/200 bio ball/toss ball ? Just does not work. And the reason you don't stay on ling bane muta is that if the player is smart enough, he turtles up to 200/200 and outright kills you.
So a reasonable nerf of Infest or Infest/BL that would target specifically the late game would be appreciated (ie. nerf infest size, population). A nerf changing the mid/mid late game would just kill the Z.
That is why Bli² is struggling right now. IT nerf seems a decent option.
ling/bling/muta was always about the speed of the units, harassing, catching the opponent out of position. It's not designed to run into a 200/200 army heads on.
I still think making fungal slow, not outright immobilize units would be interesting. It would at least add depth to the micro involved, whereas now people will either use ITs if they're still strong enough, or never use them at all.
I also don't see how only slowing is a problem with mutas in ZvZ, as someone posted earlier.
Because mutas are a great unit in ZvZ and have been for 1.5years now. Every 2months you can hear or read a comment by some prozerg (korean and nonkorean) how they think the matchup is "all about muta" and stuff like that. If you just watch any ZvZ including mutas, the game is mostly decided in those few minutes in between mutas and shutting them down with infestors. The point that people just forget is that: Yes, you maybe able to shut down mutas even with a slowing fungal, but the situation you are in after turtling to infestors, losing map vision, being contained, investing in queen, spore, infestor... Is already a quite balanced one between the muta and the nonmuta player. If you make mutas an even better choice as they are right now, you basically make them the only viable option in WoL ZvZ. But muta vs muta openings are really coinflippy and often end in boring mass muta vs mass muta play. And ending that with infestors will be even harder then.
The "Fungal as a slow = more micro" argument to me seems a little silly. If you are talking about point-of-attack unit movement as the only form of micro, then I agree totally. Fungal as a stun, however, punishes a lack of micro PRIOR to making contact with the enemy army. At least that's the way I look at it.
In the end, I'm good with nerfs to Z late game, but I really would like to see pros try some things that are drastically different from the norm in the vZ matchups, because I really feel like there is a lack of creativity in the pro scene right now.
Specifically I'd like to see openings that slow Z's economy by forcing units or builds that attack often into Infestors (immediately after they get on the field) emphasizing good splits and forcing inefficient Infestor energy usage.
On January 11 2013 22:50 EssenceSC wrote: Nerf infestor, but leave the immortal all in the way it is, a build that's had a stupidly high win ratio for the best part of a year. Dat logic.
Immortal sentry is only as good as it is due to forcefields. Blizzard can't remove forcefields without completely redesigning protoss.
With swarm so close to release, I think they're doing well by ignoring it and focusing on appeasing the vocal playerbase by nerfing the infestor.
I want to run this idea by the community to see what they think. I realize that the infested terran are really strong. I know that getting the weapon and armor upgrades make them nearly broken. However, in the late game without the upgrades (specifically the attack upgrade) infested terran really do little damage. here's my suggestion. Take away the the evo chamber upgrades from the infested terran, but add in an upgrade to the infestation pit that becomes available at hive tech. Let this upgrade give the infested terran +1 or +1.5 attack power and no armor. It just a suggestion I haven't seen thrown out. How does this sound?
On January 11 2013 22:50 EssenceSC wrote: Nerf infestor, but leave the immortal all in the way it is, a build that's had a stupidly high win ratio for the best part of a year. Dat logic.
Immortal sentry is only as good as it is due to forcefields. Blizzard can't remove forcefields without completely redesigning protoss.
With swarm so close to release, I think they're doing well by ignoring it and focusing on appeasing the vocal playerbase by nerfing the infestor.
same goes for zerg tho. If Blizzard will nerf the infestors to much, they would need to redesign the entire zerg race since all units are so cost ineffective without the infestor that Z would lose every late game fight. I was never a fan of fungal since it prevents micro... same with forcefield.
On January 11 2013 22:50 EssenceSC wrote: Nerf infestor, but leave the immortal all in the way it is, a build that's had a stupidly high win ratio for the best part of a year. Dat logic.
I would like to see the protoss winrate vs zerg without the immortal all in.
On January 11 2013 22:50 EssenceSC wrote: Nerf infestor, but leave the immortal all in the way it is, a build that's had a stupidly high win ratio for the best part of a year. Dat logic.
Immortal sentry is only as good as it is due to forcefields. Blizzard can't remove forcefields without completely redesigning protoss.
With swarm so close to release, I think they're doing well by ignoring it and focusing on appeasing the vocal playerbase by nerfing the infestor.
same goes for zerg tho. If Blizzard will nerf the infestors to much, they would need to redesign the entire zerg race since all units are so cost ineffective without the infestor that Z would lose every late game fight. I was never a fan of fungal since it prevents micro... same with forcefield.
Yes because everyone knows how cost ineffective broodlords and fungal are.....the point is right now zerg late game is way too cost effective, to the point where once they get that late game army, it's nearly possible for t or p to win because it's nearly impossible for the other 2 races to actually transition to a composition that can fight it on equal footing (bc, raven, ghost for t, carrier void ray high templar with mothership for p)
On January 11 2013 22:50 EssenceSC wrote: Nerf infestor, but leave the immortal all in the way it is, a build that's had a stupidly high win ratio for the best part of a year. Dat logic.
I would like to see the protoss winrate vs zerg without the immortal all in.
How can they possibly even consider balancing the game when the immortal all in and 3 pylon block are still in WoL? Or my personal faviroute, 3 pylon block into immortal all in. Ladder win rates are insanely skewed.
On January 11 2013 22:50 EssenceSC wrote: Nerf infestor, but leave the immortal all in the way it is, a build that's had a stupidly high win ratio for the best part of a year. Dat logic.
I would like to see the protoss winrate vs zerg without the immortal all in.
How can they possibly even consider balancing the game when the immortal all in and 3 pylon block are still in WoL? Or my personal faviroute, 3 pylon block into immortal all in. Ladder win rates are insanely skewed.
Oh yeah protoss is so overpowered...that's why they have had the least showing in major tournaments since....forever right?
Just remove the infestor already^^ I'm playing sc2 very rarely at the moment, but if I do I always try to avoid infestors, because for example muta/ling is much more fun to play. Plus I hate games where both players just expand and macro up. I like action packed micro battles, not stupid infestor broodlord deathballs and archon toilets.
On January 11 2013 22:50 EssenceSC wrote: Nerf infestor, but leave the immortal all in the way it is, a build that's had a stupidly high win ratio for the best part of a year. Dat logic.
I would like to see the protoss winrate vs zerg without the immortal all in.
How can they possibly even consider balancing the game when the immortal all in and 3 pylon block are still in WoL? Or my personal faviroute, 3 pylon block into immortal all in. Ladder win rates are insanely skewed.
Oh yeah protoss is so overpowered...that's why they have had the least showing in major tournaments since....forever right?
I never said that, i highlighted certain strategies that need to be looked at but don't get any attention because everyone is always jumping on the nerf infestor train.
On January 11 2013 22:50 EssenceSC wrote: Nerf infestor, but leave the immortal all in the way it is, a build that's had a stupidly high win ratio for the best part of a year. Dat logic.
I would like to see the protoss winrate vs zerg without the immortal all in.
How can they possibly even consider balancing the game when the immortal all in and 3 pylon block are still in WoL? Or my personal faviroute, 3 pylon block into immortal all in. Ladder win rates are insanely skewed.
Oh yeah protoss is so overpowered...that's why they have had the least showing in major tournaments since....forever right?
I never said that, i highlighted certain strategies that need to be looked at but don't get any attention because everyone is always jumping on the nerf infestor train.
why should 3 pylon block be looked at? it's piss easy to stop....
On January 11 2013 23:24 Butterednuts wrote: No infested terran upgrades? Alright Blizzard... I don't agree with this at all.
That has been one of the most important issues with infestors. I'm all for asymetric balance, but the ability for a unit to scale like that, to be able to spew out high dps, scaling units for free is insane. Though in HotS we have a unit like that for zerg, they have other issues that balance the spawned units, like the amount that can be created at one time. I'm surprised they didn't just remove infested terrans all together, since they are the reason that battles are unintelligible for the most part. I really like what blizzard has done here, though I hope it won't end up too harsh.
On January 11 2013 23:24 Butterednuts wrote: No infested terran upgrades? Alright Blizzard... I don't agree with this at all.
That has been one of the most important issues with infestors. I'm all for asymetric balance, but the ability for a unit to scale like that, to be able to spew out high dps, scaling units for free is insane. Though in HotS we have a unit like that for zerg, they have other issues that balance the spawned units, like the amount that can be created at one time. I'm surprised they didn't just remove infested terrans all together, since they are the reason that battles are unintelligible for the most part. I really like what blizzard has done here, though I hope it won't end up too harsh.
I think they should just double the mana cost of IT (with some number adjustments to compensate). This would essentially halve the upgrade bonus they receive as well as decrease the mass IT spam.
On January 12 2013 00:26 MyNameIsAlex wrote: I dont think it will change ZvT at all, while it will change alot ZvP. And ZvP does not need a change currently.
Everything with ZvX needs a freaking change badly. It will fix PvZ and it's great. It will not fix TvZ and it sucks.
On January 12 2013 00:26 MyNameIsAlex wrote: I dont think it will change ZvT at all, while it will change alot ZvP. And ZvP does not need a change currently.
Oh it does, but just fixing the infestor won't make ZvP more entertaining and not necessarily more balanced.
Even if HotS is getting close to release they should still fix WoL's issues. They really can't win with their community. If they do this it's "pointless change, hots soon anyway." - If they didn't change it, it would most likely be "Greedy blizz making us pay money to get fixes in HotS."
I can't simply believe this is happening now, and not 6 months ago at least. It's just crazy, and everyone knows it, all the time we passed fighting against this shit. The sad part of the story is reserved for hots, they brought an heavily imbalanced game to the beta forge, and now they're in troubles because the starting metagame was simply shit.
Next month, queen range buff reverted (after a who cares test), because developers are a little (just a little) slow.
On January 12 2013 00:26 MyNameIsAlex wrote: I dont think it will change ZvT at all, while it will change alot ZvP. And ZvP does not need a change currently.
the change has had a huge effect on infested terrans. just watch any hots stream. they become ridiculously ineffective in late game. further zerg is using supply into new strats like roach hydra viper so you don't see crazy infestor numbers dumping a million eggs much anymore.
My ideal nerf of Uncle Festor (i am playing zerg)... wooo kekekeke
Decrease 1 dmg vs.ground/air of infested terrans and decrease their health 5 to10 hp = balanced...
FG nerf? 3 second slowdown, same DMG .. first second 100% slowdown, second second 50% slowdown, third second 25% slowdown HOWGH try it use it delete it ! BEER FOR EVERYONE!
I understand the reasons but I don't like the implementation behind it. I was under the impression that Blizzard was striving to continually refine the game and improve clarity yet that vision has been compromised over and over in WoL.
Clear and purposeful design will dictate that if you apply an upgrade, units benefit from it. Now a new player can no longer expect that. He/she has to be aware and learn that infested terrans don't benefit from upgrades while something like broodlings can. What about locusts, are they an exception as well?
This is inconsistent design that betrays a lack of focus and an attempt to correct errors in a hacked manner. The game shouldn't be about learning exceptions.
On January 11 2013 22:50 EssenceSC wrote: Nerf infestor, but leave the immortal all in the way it is, a build that's had a stupidly high win ratio for the best part of a year. Dat logic.
Immortal sentry is only as good as it is due to forcefields. Blizzard can't remove forcefields without completely redesigning protoss.
With swarm so close to release, I think they're doing well by ignoring it and focusing on appeasing the vocal playerbase by nerfing the infestor.
same goes for zerg tho. If Blizzard will nerf the infestors to much, they would need to redesign the entire zerg race since all units are so cost ineffective without the infestor that Z would lose every late game fight. I was never a fan of fungal since it prevents micro... same with forcefield.
I don't think that's true. Infestors let zerg overpower other races because of how cost efficient they are, combined with zerg's production mechanics.
I believe zerg's production mechanics would allow zergs to keep up just fine, although they would always be cost inefficient. The play style would be incredibly different than the standard now, though.
On January 11 2013 22:50 EssenceSC wrote: Nerf infestor, but leave the immortal all in the way it is, a build that's had a stupidly high win ratio for the best part of a year. Dat logic.
Immortal sentry is only as good as it is due to forcefields. Blizzard can't remove forcefields without completely redesigning protoss.
With swarm so close to release, I think they're doing well by ignoring it and focusing on appeasing the vocal playerbase by nerfing the infestor.
same goes for zerg tho. If Blizzard will nerf the infestors to much, they would need to redesign the entire zerg race since all units are so cost ineffective without the infestor that Z would lose every late game fight. I was never a fan of fungal since it prevents micro... same with forcefield.
I don't think that's true. Infestors let zerg overpower other races because of how cost efficient they are, combined with zerg's production mechanics.
I believe zerg's production mechanics would allow zergs to keep up just fine, although they would always be cost inefficient. The play style would be incredibly different than the standard now, though.
Cost inefficiency in lategame, split map positions is something that makes you lose.
On January 11 2013 07:49 Seeker wrote: Omfg... they're going to neft infestors? I can only imagine what kind atrocity awaits us. Blizzard just created a word that's not even in the English dictionary just for infestors...
Blizzard seems to have embiggened the infestor in the most cromulent fashion
On January 12 2013 02:12 Orzabal wrote: Lets put Hydra to Tier 1.5 move roach to Tiers 2.
Remove Queens
Hydra and roach pop decrease to 1.
I rather have them introduce a high ground advantage and scaled economy before they do that.
Most units can be "patched" by introducing new maps. We've only had 3 transitions of new maps in SC2. Blizzard's atrocity maps, GSL maps that are all reskinned day breaks, and KESPA maps that "break" the meta game. I honestly dislike how Blizzard feels the need to dictate the meta game by nerfing units. Let the players come up with new strategies, or better yet introduce maps that discourage the need to turtle on 2/3 bases but the only way you will accomplish this is through a scaled economy that rewards players for expanding.
On January 12 2013 02:12 Orzabal wrote: Lets put Hydra to Tier 1.5 move roach to Tiers 2.
Remove Queens
Hydra and roach pop decrease to 1.
Because 1 supply roaches were awesome in beta and totally balanced. Wait....no, not at all. Lets just bring the infestor down a few notches until HotS and not try to reinvent the wheel.
I think fixing Infested Terrans and Neural Parasite takes priority over fungal. Zergs don't make 20 infestors to take cast 40 fungals, they make them to spam ITs. 20 Infestors can produce 160 free marines which is just stupid. Either increase the energy cost for IT to 30, or make ITs not benefit from upgrades, or reduce the range they can be thrown.
I also want Neural Parasite nerfed for the sole reason of NP on the Mothership. Make psionic units immunte to NP.
On January 12 2013 03:22 eugalp wrote: I think fixing Infested Terrans and Neural Parasite takes priority over fungal. Zergs don't make 20 infestors to take cast 40 fungals, they make them to spam ITs. 20 Infestors can produce 160 free marines which is just stupid. Either increase the energy required to throw an IT to 30, or make ITs not benefit from upgrades, or reduce the range they can be thrown.
this is something i've brought up a few times (even in this thread) and have never seen mentioned. by principle, it can be presumed nothing in sc2 is allowed to cost 30 anything, be it energy, gas or minerals. only allowed resource costs come in increments of 25. this is consistent enough both in both brood war and sc2 as to say it's an imposed limitation in balance design. only exception as far as i know is that point defense drones eat ten energy per shot intercepted, but that is not in the realm of player control as a usable skill, being something that's passively consumed.
it sounds stupid when you think about it. it is stupid. in essence, it is possible to consider modifying infested terrans' energy cost by increments of, uhh, 100% at a time.
On January 11 2013 07:50 Laryleprakon wrote: Try having fungal slow and not root, at least try it :/
This gets suggested over and over again, but there is a reason it is not implemented, and the reason are mutas in ZvZ.
So make it root air units and slow ground units. Surely such a feat of programming is in the realm of possibility.
I've seen many other people already say this, but fungal rooting is perfectly fine. What isn't fine, is fungal rooting on a unit that is massable. Blizzard is fixing the "massable" part of infesotrs. You remove the upgrades on IT, then in the late game if I already have 6-8 infestors for fungal, I'm not going to build another 20 for 100 worthless IT. Right now, I do want 100 IT because they are an amazingly strong unit. With the proposed nerf (which is an excellent idea from blizzard, I am convinced it works after playing around in the beta), infestors will no longer be massed. Now if you whiff a fungal, it's a huge deal.
However, all this fixes is massing infestors in the lategame. I think all that will happen is people will go back to infestor/BL, which will still be almost an auto-win, but at least now there is a small chance for miss control again. This patch will have no noticable effect on balance I think, but watching infestor/BL is slightly less painful than watching mass infestor (although, it still is very painful).
Make infestor slow units, so next fungal slow units even more. For example 1 fungal slow units by 30% and next fungal slow by 30% the slowed units. The slowing percentage could be higher ofcaurse
On January 12 2013 01:50 virpi wrote: remove fungal completely. add baneling catapult.
that actually sounds awesome lol, as long as it did friendly fire i think it would be great and really fun, lots of possibilities..nah nm its blizzard
Lol there is actually a baneling launcher unit on sc2mapster, I used it to create a modified infestor in one of my ums maps that is basically a reaver that looks like an infestor, but shoots banelings instead of those reaver bombs. It is a ton of fun to play with!
One solution might be to get rid of fungal growth and replace it with spawn broodlings. Then the infestor becomes more of an anti-mech specialist..
On January 12 2013 04:23 Brindled wrote: NOOOOOO, now Nestea will have less of a chance to win his 4th GSL before the end of WOL era!!!
I think it was in his last Code A game that he lost, the TL writers (in his UnD preview) questioned why he never built infestors. I love nestea for it though.
Makes sense, the biggest issue in TvZ I've experienced is even if you get a big mech army, Zerg can spam infested Terran and kill your army immediately because it's not mobile
At this rate they'll be balancing WoL long after HoTS is out...
Look at any other strategy game and try to find a 4 second root that isn't on a long cooldown/expensive to use. Then try and find a 4 second root that does significant damage. There just aren't many (if any) because they are extremely difficult to balance. In most competative games the average root is something like 1.5-2 seconds and even those are on cooldown/cant be chained.
There are just so many problems with fungal and the infestor in general that make it difficult to balance. For example: -if you put a cooldown on fungal, if the cooldown is relatively short, zerg masses enough infestors anyway to still chain it; if the cooldown is long, then teching to infestors makes zerg extremely vulnerable since they would only have a handful of fungals initially. -you can make it a slow projectile, but then it would likely be as bad a seeker missle is in WoL. If it is too hard to land, people just wont use it. It would be very hit or miss. -you could increase the cost of fungal, but again that would ruin the ability for zerg to defend early on when they have only a few infestors. -you could limit the duration, but then the dps would be too high. Even if the dps is also lowered, the spell can still be chained and essentially you've just done the same as increasing the cost.
If fungal is to remain easily chainable it just cannot be a root; if it is chainable, it does not root.
IMO: -if fungal is going to be chainable, it must be a snare/slow. At the moment, if your army is caught by 1 good fungal, your army is caught by 2*(#infestors) good fungals and there is nothing you can do, cept maybe get a drink.
-there is also the option for diminishing returns, where units that are fungaled or recently have been recently fungaled recieve a reduced effect (100%, 66%, 33%, immune etc). So say that the DR time is 6 seconds, fungal lasts 4. If zerg fungals the same unit within 2 seconds after the first fungal, that unit recieves a reduced fungal (say 2.6 seconds). If zerg again fungals within 3.4 seconds (6-2.4) then those units affected recieved an even more reduced affect (in this case 1.3 sec) until they are immune or zerg resets the DR time by not fungaling those units.
In this case, 2 things happen:
(1.) Units that are fungaled repeatedly have a longer time of immunity. For example, if a unit is fungaled 3 times, it recieves 4.7 seconds of immunity to fungal, whereas a unit that is fungaled once will recieve a reduced effect for only 2 seconds.
(2.) because of reason (1.) It may be to zergs advantage to either fungal only once, or fungal multiple times if they think they can kill off the unit. If zerg fungals once, then in 2 seconds after they can fungal again for full effect, and if they fungal too many times and dont kill the unit then they have the issue of the unit being immune for 4.7 seconds. This adds more strategy to the decision of whether or not to chain the fungal since atm it is a no brainer.
I feel neural parasite is a very badly designed ability coupled with fungal which kills little units, NP makes carrier/BC usage against zerg so bad because NP counters those units even harder than corrupters
I feel neural parasite should no longer target massive, BUT it should cost 50 energy and have 10 range and no longer require an upgrade. Thus it could become very useful but then massive units would become a soft counter to infestors because they are resistant to fungal/NP compared to small units
Blizzard is stalling for HotS. Even if they removed IT from the game terrans would still get butchered by fungal. Will be "fun" watching zerg armies melt in end game pvz.
On January 12 2013 07:11 nailertn wrote: Blizzard is stalling for HotS. Even if they removed IT from the game terrans would still get butchered by fungal. Will be "fun" watching zerg armies melt in end game pvz.
yes but without fungal zergs have no way to do guaranteed damage. Marine balls make banelings look fairly worthless unlike some sort of zerg siegetank...
Proleague stats when there are a lot of maps which are not what most people actually play. Maps change everything. Hell many of the terran nerfs could had been fixed by maps at release instead.
Because the PL map pool is not used by most tournaments. The maps actually make a pretty big difference. Maps like abyssal, whirlwind , Belshir Vestige aren't helping in the GSL.
On January 12 2013 01:26 wangstra wrote: I understand the reasons but I don't like the implementation behind it. I was under the impression that Blizzard was striving to continually refine the game and improve clarity yet that vision has been compromised over and over in WoL.
Clear and purposeful design will dictate that if you apply an upgrade, units benefit from it. Now a new player can no longer expect that. He/she has to be aware and learn that infested terrans don't benefit from upgrades while something like broodlings can. What about locusts, are they an exception as well?
This is inconsistent design that betrays a lack of focus and an attempt to correct errors in a hacked manner. The game shouldn't be about learning exceptions.
I agree. IT's not receiving upgrades is kind of ad hoc and sort of a band-aid fix, but it hasn't stopped them before. Preventing warp-ins on ramps sort of falls into this category of fixes as well. It is a little sad to see them break away from their original concept of solid game design.
On January 11 2013 07:50 Laryleprakon wrote: Try having fungal slow and not root, at least try it :/
Or even easier, just give 1-2 seconds of time after each fungal where you can't fungal again to allow for more micro.
Nope. Not realistic that fungals cannot be chain casted. I like the "slow instead of root" idea much much more. Even though its science fiction, but good SF should always have plausible tech and tactics.
On January 11 2013 07:50 Laryleprakon wrote: Try having fungal slow and not root, at least try it :/
Or even easier, just give 1-2 seconds of time after each fungal where you can't fungal again to allow for more micro.
Nope. Not realistic that fungals cannot be chain casted. I like the "slow instead of root" idea much much more. Even though its science fiction, but good SF should always have plausible tech and tactics.
See, this is a matter of gameplay vs lore, what is fun and what is accurate. I don't necessarily agree with what Traceback said, but I'm just pointing out that this facet of the argument that you're bringing up is already irrelevant. If the gameplay were more based on lore and as you put it, "plausible tech and tactics" well it should be pretty obvious it would be broken as all hell and not one bit of fun. Obviously Zerg would not have the same low supply cap as the others, meanwhile Protoss should have battleships that can "purify" entire planets as they've done before with Chau Sara and... yeah you see where this is going.
Fungal as a slowing spell though, now that's actually a good idea. If only they weren't so stubborn and would let us experiment with it. -_-
On January 12 2013 06:27 DavoS wrote: Makes sense, the biggest issue in TvZ I've experienced is even if you get a big mech army, Zerg can spam infested Terran and kill your army immediately because it's not mobile
I completely agree. Just yesterday I had a game where I was fully maxed on under 40 SCVs with Thor Hellion Vikin Raven Tank and my opponent dumped a bachillion infested terrans on me and it wasn't even close.
Like nerfing little bit infestors will help anything. Its like increasing medivac healing from 9hp/s -> 10hp/s, doesn't fix the fundamental flaws in the game like how much easier and forgiving zerg/toss are compared to terran. Also these infestor nerfs only courages lategame play where these nerfs apply. Just revert the queen buff, thx bye.
Wait a second, just thought of an alternative way to adjust the Infestor.
Could it be that, the combination of both Infested Terrans and fungal is too much? What if the player had to choose between one, or the other?
For example, after you use fungal - it enforces a long cooldown which also affects the Infested Terran ability. Meaning if you choose to use a fungal - fine - you just can't launch any IT eggs until the CD is over.
But if all you wanna do is repeatedly launch the IT eggs - no problem, have at it. But no fungal for you.
Personally I think one reason Blizzard is afraid of making FG slow down units rather than freezing them because then it would be too much like the BW Queen's Ensnare ability.
[...] The change is good, but so late and so obvious that it really frustrates me, many Terran/Protoss players that could've been getting more prize money, but wasn't rewarded due to imbalance.
i wouldn't start that discussion. remember the first maps where siege tanks could fire from the T natural to the zergs..?
On January 12 2013 08:52 JudicatorHammurabi wrote: Personally I think one reason Blizzard is afraid of making FG slow down units rather than freezing them because then it would be too much like the BW Queen's Ensnare ability.
Or maybe because the same problem would exist with a snare as a root. As other people have said, back when it was a 8 second root, nobody complained. Partially because we rarely saw infestors, but the root wasn't seen as broken back then.
The problems with facing infestors has always been that the damage is guaranteed, it can kill, and it can be chained safely. Changing it to a snare doesn't change any of those things. Either the snare is inconsequential and it should just be removed altogether, or the snare is just as good as the root and people will complain/cheer about a nerf that does nothing. The only situation a snare works well (but not as well as a root) is when you have to catch up to a unit or kite, which isn't a problem with Zerg at ANY stage in the game. This is why concussive shells are great before stim and forgotten after.
ITs are a little different in that they are just cheap on energy. After a relatively short period of time of being used up, infestors can be useful again with at least 1 more IT added to the swarm.
On January 12 2013 07:14 NEEDZMOAR wrote: since infestors are the only thing keeping Z cost efficient against bio balls, nerfing fungal is retarded, nerfing ITs is fine I guess.
Banelings are alive and well. Just because there is a superior - brokenly so - alternative doesn't mean they don't work. Not even code S level micro is consistent enough against them to warrant the tag 'cost effective', never mind the other 99.9% of the player base. Not to mention they are infinitely more exciting to watch than mass fungal.
On January 12 2013 09:27 eleaf wrote: So sad that ppl wont even bother to discuss infestors anymore. After a whole day & balance topic about infestors only get 14 pages? Well this sucks.
I think most of the Zergs who would have come and argued have long since realize that Infestors are in fact broken and take away shitton of fun in the game on both sides of the equation.
Why not just make Fungal a spore-like area, sorta like storm, which slows down units and does damage at the same time (sorta like Psi Storm, but just belabours getting out of it)...
When I think fungal, I get spores in my mind, not getting stuck in an area for 5 seconds.
There is no problem with infestors broodlords. The real problem is the rootable spinecrawler. Without rootable spinecrawlers the broodlord infestor army can easily be dealt with in a fair fight.
I wish blizzard read the forums Lol. I' did once piss off browder aka rock by saying "blizzard doesn't read the forums." Of course he responded and said he reads them every morning.
About fucking time. How about fungal not rooting as well. That'd turn it into a support unit and not the goddamned end-all unit that it is now. It would also synergize extremely well and in a badass manner with Vipers in HotS.
This is enough if it goes through. Carriers here I come!
Other suggestions: - You could have fungal stun only light units (important examples: phoenix, mutas, lings, marines). Units like void rays are already slow enough. Fungal effectively makes them all in units as you either win the fight or lose your whole army (which means game over).
- You could also approach infestor/BL by nerfing BLs. They're too early in the game to be as game deciding. Maybe reduce broodling spawn rate so you can trade more efficiently with a ground army. Or, instead of that, have the same upgrade nerf for broodlings. Because they're free units as well. Free units should never trade as efficiently vs super expensive units as they currently do.
On January 12 2013 20:15 DarkLordOlli wrote: This is enough if it goes through. Carriers here I come!
Other suggestions: - You could have fungal stun only light units (important examples: phoenix, mutas, lings, marines). Units like void rays are already slow enough. Fungal effectively makes them all in units as you either win the fight or lose your whole army (which means game over).
- You could also approach infestor/BL by nerfing BLs. They're too early in the game to be as game deciding. Maybe reduce broodling spawn rate so you can trade more efficiently with a ground army. Or, instead of that, have the same upgrade nerf for broodlings. Because they're free units as well. Free units should never trade as efficiently vs super expensive units as they currently do.
Not saying do all of these at once.
Units instead of a projectile is a bad idea, we all agree, but you can't prevent a t3 unit to have upgrades.
On January 12 2013 20:15 DarkLordOlli wrote: This is enough if it goes through. Carriers here I come!
Other suggestions: - You could have fungal stun only light units (important examples: phoenix, mutas, lings, marines). Units like void rays are already slow enough. Fungal effectively makes them all in units as you either win the fight or lose your whole army (which means game over).
- You could also approach infestor/BL by nerfing BLs. They're too early in the game to be as game deciding. Maybe reduce broodling spawn rate so you can trade more efficiently with a ground army. Or, instead of that, have the same upgrade nerf for broodlings. Because they're free units as well. Free units should never trade as efficiently vs super expensive units as they currently do.
Not saying do all of these at once.
Units instead of a projectile is a bad idea, we all agree, but you can't prevent a t3 unit to have upgrades.
BL by itself becomes better with air upgrades. He says that broodling souldn't benefit from ground upgrades.
On January 12 2013 20:15 DarkLordOlli wrote: This is enough if it goes through. Carriers here I come!
Other suggestions: - You could have fungal stun only light units (important examples: phoenix, mutas, lings, marines). Units like void rays are already slow enough. Fungal effectively makes them all in units as you either win the fight or lose your whole army (which means game over).
- You could also approach infestor/BL by nerfing BLs. They're too early in the game to be as game deciding. Maybe reduce broodling spawn rate so you can trade more efficiently with a ground army. Or, instead of that, have the same upgrade nerf for broodlings. Because they're free units as well. Free units should never trade as efficiently vs super expensive units as they currently do.
Not saying do all of these at once.
Units instead of a projectile is a bad idea, we all agree, but you can't prevent a t3 unit to have upgrades.
Well the BL itself could have a stronger single attack that profits from air upgrades.
On January 12 2013 08:26 Setev wrote: I prefer to remove fungal stun and sub with slow. Why nerfing fungal will cause muta wars in ZvZ? Shouldn't players incorporate hydras?
Hydras lose straight up fights to mutas unless you have a shit ton of hydras. Which if your 3rd is delayed by the muta build you won't have.
On January 11 2013 07:49 Seeker wrote: Omfg... they're going to neft infestors? I can only imagine what kind atrocity awaits us. Blizzard just created a word that's not even in the English dictionary just for infestors...
Blizzard seems to have embiggened the infestor in the most cromulent fashion
On January 12 2013 21:14 blamekilly wrote: just remove the damn root effect so I can freakin micro against it. make it a slow spell if you have to. problem solved.
Would be nice if FF didn't stop you from microing too
On January 12 2013 07:14 NEEDZMOAR wrote: since infestors are the only thing keeping Z cost efficient against bio balls, nerfing fungal is retarded, nerfing ITs is fine I guess.
Banelings are alive and well. Just because there is a superior - brokenly so - alternative doesn't mean they don't work. Not even code S level micro is consistent enough against them to warrant the tag 'cost effective', never mind the other 99.9% of the player base. Not to mention they are infinitely more exciting to watch than mass fungal.
banelings are never cost efficient on a pro level unless your opponent screws up, and thats the key words, you have to rely on your opponent screwing up for banelings to be a good gasdump.
besides, what about zvp and zvz? and no its not exciting to watch something just because there are more explosions and whatnot, I hate banelings, I hate watching it, I hate having to make them, why? because, as Ive already mentioned before, I have to rely on my opponent to fuck up, and I have to rely on luck, with medivacs banelings might not even do enough damage, blink stalkers would just be stupidly good if fungal were removed, you think zvp lategame is passive now? remove fungal and no zerg would ever attack, ever...
you know whats really breaking this game? bioballs + medivacs + infinite selection + clumping up, there u have it, without that, the other races wouldnt have to rely on guaranteed aoe damage and crowdcontrol ( sentries / infestors).
Do you realise how easy it was for T to break down equally good zerg players who didnt have Idra / DRG / leenocks apm to play muta ling bling cost efficiently?
On January 12 2013 20:15 DarkLordOlli wrote: This is enough if it goes through. Carriers here I come!
Other suggestions: - You could have fungal stun only light units (important examples: phoenix, mutas, lings, marines). Units like void rays are already slow enough. Fungal effectively makes them all in units as you either win the fight or lose your whole army (which means game over).
- You could also approach infestor/BL by nerfing BLs. They're too early in the game to be as game deciding. Maybe reduce broodling spawn rate so you can trade more efficiently with a ground army. Or, instead of that, have the same upgrade nerf for broodlings. Because they're free units as well. Free units should never trade as efficiently vs super expensive units as they currently do.
Not saying do all of these at once.
U mean like the way u would want blink stalkers ( essentially free units) to trade against BLs without infestors being able to root them?
On January 12 2013 21:34 Scrubwave wrote: FF is in no way comparable to fungal. FFs can be destroyed by massive units, don't affect air units at all and the only way to stop FFs from microing as fungal does is to make an FF prison around enemy units. Oh, and obviously "chain force fields" don't kill anything.
are you serious? FF can very much be compared, its a game deciding spell, it makes earlygame aggression in zvp useless, it makes groundarmies in zvp 3base timings with colossi useless, without the sentry, (and of course without Warpgate mechanics) GateWay-units wouldnt have to be so f*cking weak and could be a core part of the toss army.
On January 12 2013 20:15 DarkLordOlli wrote: This is enough if it goes through. Carriers here I come!
Other suggestions: - You could have fungal stun only light units (important examples: phoenix, mutas, lings, marines). Units like void rays are already slow enough. Fungal effectively makes them all in units as you either win the fight or lose your whole army (which means game over).
- You could also approach infestor/BL by nerfing BLs. They're too early in the game to be as game deciding. Maybe reduce broodling spawn rate so you can trade more efficiently with a ground army. Or, instead of that, have the same upgrade nerf for broodlings. Because they're free units as well. Free units should never trade as efficiently vs super expensive units as they currently do.
Not saying do all of these at once.
U mean like the way u would want blink stalkers ( essentially free units) to trade against BLs without infestors being able to root them?
Like... what... I don't even... Stalkers are 125/50. How on earth is that free? I also recommend you read the last statement I made, I even put it in bold letters for you.
I dont get how you people really think that exchanging the fungle root for a "slow" would make such a big difference against the already fast zerg units.
even broodlings are fast as fuck. i mean cmon, like that would make a big difference.
On January 12 2013 20:15 DarkLordOlli wrote: This is enough if it goes through. Carriers here I come!
Other suggestions: - You could have fungal stun only light units (important examples: phoenix, mutas, lings, marines). Units like void rays are already slow enough. Fungal effectively makes them all in units as you either win the fight or lose your whole army (which means game over).
- You could also approach infestor/BL by nerfing BLs. They're too early in the game to be as game deciding. Maybe reduce broodling spawn rate so you can trade more efficiently with a ground army. Or, instead of that, have the same upgrade nerf for broodlings. Because they're free units as well. Free units should never trade as efficiently vs super expensive units as they currently do.
Not saying do all of these at once.
U mean like the way u would want blink stalkers ( essentially free units) to trade against BLs without infestors being able to root them?
Like... what... I don't even... Stalkers are 125/50. How on earth is that free? I also recommend you read the last statement I made, I even put it in bold letters for you.
in consideration to how much BLs cost (300 min 250 gas 4 supply per BL, add Gspire+ spire (comparable to blink and twilight In some ways but not nearly as efficient since u need TC for +2 upgrades)), its basically free when you think of how easily they would counter BL in lategame zvp without fungals.
I'm actually surprised they still bother with balancing WoL. But this change will have too much effect on the late-game and affect protoss much more than terran. When it comes to infested terrans I'd rather see a flat-out damage decrease.
On January 12 2013 20:15 DarkLordOlli wrote: This is enough if it goes through. Carriers here I come!
Other suggestions: - You could have fungal stun only light units (important examples: phoenix, mutas, lings, marines). Units like void rays are already slow enough. Fungal effectively makes them all in units as you either win the fight or lose your whole army (which means game over).
- You could also approach infestor/BL by nerfing BLs. They're too early in the game to be as game deciding. Maybe reduce broodling spawn rate so you can trade more efficiently with a ground army. Or, instead of that, have the same upgrade nerf for broodlings. Because they're free units as well. Free units should never trade as efficiently vs super expensive units as they currently do.
Not saying do all of these at once.
U mean like the way u would want blink stalkers ( essentially free units) to trade against BLs without infestors being able to root them?
Like... what... I don't even... Stalkers are 125/50. How on earth is that free? I also recommend you read the last statement I made, I even put it in bold letters for you.
in consideration to how much BLs cost (300 min 250 gas 4 supply per BL, add Gspire+ spire (comparable to blink and twilight In some ways but not nearly as efficient since u need TC for +2 upgrades)), its basically free when you think of how easily they would counter BL in lategame zvp without fungals.
Did you consider what broodlings cost? Nothing. You can't even take out the source because of fungal. So basically a perfectly controlled infestor/BL army trades nothing but energy for an entire protoss army. Stalkers are NOT free. Nowhere near free.
On January 12 2013 22:10 ilikeLIONZ wrote: I dont get how you people really think that exchanging the fungle root for a "slow" would make such a big difference against the already fast zerg units.
even broodlings are fast as fuck. i mean cmon, like that would make a big difference.
Just think about how many medivacs could be saved if fungal did only slow down units instead of completely stopping them. If fungal was a slow, the defender needs to decide if he wants to split to avoid a follow up or if he wants to have maximum dps. Spliting up slowed down units would massively cut the dps dealt by this units.
An interesting idea would be to change fungal to a stackable slow and not stackable dot: -That way zergs would have to think about how often they should fungal certain units in certain circumstances. -Zergs would have to use more energy to achieve the same result.
The units speed should be reduced to somewhere between 30 and 50% by each fungal.
On January 12 2013 20:15 DarkLordOlli wrote: This is enough if it goes through. Carriers here I come!
Other suggestions: - You could have fungal stun only light units (important examples: phoenix, mutas, lings, marines). Units like void rays are already slow enough. Fungal effectively makes them all in units as you either win the fight or lose your whole army (which means game over).
- You could also approach infestor/BL by nerfing BLs. They're too early in the game to be as game deciding. Maybe reduce broodling spawn rate so you can trade more efficiently with a ground army. Or, instead of that, have the same upgrade nerf for broodlings. Because they're free units as well. Free units should never trade as efficiently vs super expensive units as they currently do.
Not saying do all of these at once.
U mean like the way u would want blink stalkers ( essentially free units) to trade against BLs without infestors being able to root them?
Like... what... I don't even... Stalkers are 125/50. How on earth is that free? I also recommend you read the last statement I made, I even put it in bold letters for you.
in consideration to how much BLs cost (300 min 250 gas 4 supply per BL, add Gspire+ spire (comparable to blink and twilight In some ways but not nearly as efficient since u need TC for +2 upgrades)), its basically free when you think of how easily they would counter BL in lategame zvp without fungals.
Stalkers are not cheap, protoss is going through a fairly gas-heavy transition during the mid-late game adding colossus, storm, mothership, archons - in addition to stalkers for bolstering the ranks. Furthermore, the economic situation of zerg and protoss is not identical (unless the zerg lost a base+drones to some midgame push), meaning the zerg can afford to reinforce his army quicker. Finally, blink stalker rarely survive blinking in under blords and not just because of fungal. Normally fungal serves to lock blink stalkers down before they blink. Against low numbers of blords blink stalkers will kill them very efficiently, but that's not often the situation.
Why do people still listen to Sheepard? They are so complacent in everything they do and take years to think about small details while the bigs problems remain. Small nerfs won't bring back many good match-ups.
On January 12 2013 21:34 Scrubwave wrote: FF is in no way comparable to fungal. FFs can be destroyed by massive units, don't affect air units at all and the only way to stop FFs from microing as fungal does is to make an FF prison around enemy units. Oh, and obviously "chain force fields" don't kill anything.
are you serious? FF can very much be compared, its a game deciding spell, it makes earlygame aggression in zvp useless, it makes groundarmies in zvp 3base timings with colossi useless, without the sentry, (and of course without Warpgate mechanics) GateWay-units wouldnt have to be so f*cking weak and could be a core part of the toss army.
There are a few very big differences between fungal and forcefields. 1. Placing good forcefields takes more skill; there is a higher skill ceiling for force field usage. 2. Forcefields alone won't kill anything. 3.Every race has micro to work around forcefields once they are casted: Dropships, borrow, moving certain massive units, blink 4. Forcefields no not work against every f****** unit in the game.
IMHO forcefields are ok in PvT and borderline broken in PvZ. If queens or uprooted spines could walk down forcefields i would be completely fine with them. Fungal on the other hand is completely broken, stupid and overpowered. It does everything against every unit, is easy to use and it is on a easily massable fast unit with borrow movement.
The funniest thing about fungal is that it also works as detector. As if it would have been to much to ask zergs to either chain that cloaked unit down or just hold it in place until that Overseer is at the scene. They made a conscious decision that fungal has to be a hard counter against invisibility and not just a soft counter!
To the proposed removal of upgrades for ITs: I think this goes too far. Infested terrans with their base stats will be completely useless in late game. It think a small cooldown (0,5 s) on the spell and maybe a small damage nerf of one or two points should be enough especially in combination if a slow instead of a root on fungal.
On January 12 2013 20:15 DarkLordOlli wrote: This is enough if it goes through. Carriers here I come!
Other suggestions: - You could have fungal stun only light units (important examples: phoenix, mutas, lings, marines). Units like void rays are already slow enough. Fungal effectively makes them all in units as you either win the fight or lose your whole army (which means game over).
- You could also approach infestor/BL by nerfing BLs. They're too early in the game to be as game deciding. Maybe reduce broodling spawn rate so you can trade more efficiently with a ground army. Or, instead of that, have the same upgrade nerf for broodlings. Because they're free units as well. Free units should never trade as efficiently vs super expensive units as they currently do.
Not saying do all of these at once.
U mean like the way u would want blink stalkers ( essentially free units) to trade against BLs without infestors being able to root them?
Like... what... I don't even... Stalkers are 125/50. How on earth is that free? I also recommend you read the last statement I made, I even put it in bold letters for you.
in consideration to how much BLs cost (300 min 250 gas 4 supply per BL, add Gspire+ spire (comparable to blink and twilight In some ways but not nearly as efficient since u need TC for +2 upgrades)), its basically free when you think of how easily they would counter BL in lategame zvp without fungals.
Why people forget about supply efficiency ? 4 supply per broodlord is a steal compared to any other massive T3 unit, except the archon ? which it is a ground unit.
One interesting thing about this change, is how carriers and cattlebruisers won't get owned by thousand free units while fungaled.
On January 12 2013 20:15 DarkLordOlli wrote: This is enough if it goes through. Carriers here I come!
Other suggestions: - You could have fungal stun only light units (important examples: phoenix, mutas, lings, marines). Units like void rays are already slow enough. Fungal effectively makes them all in units as you either win the fight or lose your whole army (which means game over).
- You could also approach infestor/BL by nerfing BLs. They're too early in the game to be as game deciding. Maybe reduce broodling spawn rate so you can trade more efficiently with a ground army. Or, instead of that, have the same upgrade nerf for broodlings. Because they're free units as well. Free units should never trade as efficiently vs super expensive units as they currently do.
Not saying do all of these at once.
U mean like the way u would want blink stalkers ( essentially free units) to trade against BLs without infestors being able to root them?
Like... what... I don't even... Stalkers are 125/50. How on earth is that free? I also recommend you read the last statement I made, I even put it in bold letters for you.
in consideration to how much BLs cost (300 min 250 gas 4 supply per BL, add Gspire+ spire (comparable to blink and twilight In some ways but not nearly as efficient since u need TC for +2 upgrades)), its basically free when you think of how easily they would counter BL in lategame zvp without fungals.
Why people forget about supply efficiency ? 4 supply per broodlord is a steal compared to any other massive T3 unit, except the archon ? which it is a ground unit.
To be fair BL aren't that strong for a T3. They only attack ground and are much less durable than both battlecruisers and carriers. It is the combination with infestors that has left little to no weakness through because infestors got so powerful rooting and antiair.
With these changes through it is going to be tough to beat Protoss and Terran Air play late game relying only on infestors. This will be futher boosted if the removal of fungal bonus damage to armored is removed like from the latest HOTS beta patch.
On January 13 2013 00:07 gobbledydook wrote: Except no matter how you look at it corruptors aren't very big. They're certainly not 'massive'.
... neither are archons. Please try a little harder to discuss this, I'm serious about it. This change would do pretty much one thing only - void rays receive attack bonus vs massive. So they'd fare better vs corruptors.
This change definitely makes the most sense as a 'next step' towards properly balancing the infestor.
Reasonable people can disagree about whether this is enough, but I think we can all agree that mass, mass infestor play is pretty boring to watch. And that removing the upgrades from ITs changes the ability from a 'spawn army command' to more of a support ability (with IT's either drawing fire or being used to lightly harrass worker lines*), which imho is the main incentive for massing infestors in the mid-late to late game.
On January 12 2013 07:14 NEEDZMOAR wrote: since infestors are the only thing keeping Z cost efficient against bio balls, nerfing fungal is retarded, nerfing ITs is fine I guess.
Banelings are alive and well. Just because there is a superior - brokenly so - alternative doesn't mean they don't work. Not even code S level micro is consistent enough against them to warrant the tag 'cost effective', never mind the other 99.9% of the player base. Not to mention they are infinitely more exciting to watch than mass fungal.
banelings are never cost efficient on a pro level unless your opponent screws up, and thats the key words, you have to rely on your opponent screwing up for banelings to be a good gasdump.
besides, what about zvp and zvz? and no its not exciting to watch something just because there are more explosions and whatnot, I hate banelings, I hate watching it, I hate having to make them, why? because, as Ive already mentioned before, I have to rely on my opponent to fuck up, and I have to rely on luck, with medivacs banelings might not even do enough damage, blink stalkers would just be stupidly good if fungal were removed, you think zvp lategame is passive now? remove fungal and no zerg would ever attack, ever...
you know whats really breaking this game? bioballs + medivacs + infinite selection + clumping up, there u have it, without that, the other races wouldnt have to rely on guaranteed aoe damage and crowdcontrol ( sentries / infestors).
Do you realise how easy it was for T to break down equally good zerg players who didnt have Idra / DRG / leenocks apm to play muta ling bling cost efficiently?
Having played random for a year in WoL I realise this: You never tried the T side of muta ling bane vs tank bio if you say that. You seem to cling on to this notion of cost efficiency yet play the race that was designed to be wasteful. The fact that zergs have all the tools necessary to be wasteful AND managed to figure out ways to be very cost efficient is why we are where we are now.
Banelings are not more exciting than fungal because there are pretty explosions, they are because they can be countered with superior micro yet the danger of losing half your army in an instant is always present. Compare that to fungal: one click guaranteed damage with no counter play what so ever.
Having to rely on your opponent to fuck up is frustrating I'll give you that - welcome to TvZ in 2012 btw -, but if you have stuff like banelings vs marine / concussive shell vs zealot / phoenix vs muta etc... where a certain unit can be hard countered with sufficient APM somebody is always going to get hurt. Your opponent if you have the APM, you if you don't.
The goal is not to cripple zerg but to make it more well rounded so the entire race is not dependant on one ability. Fixing hydras seems like a pretty good solution against mutas and blink stalkers, and no you don't need fungal against bio.
Why don't they just get rid of fungal and find a new casting power for the infestors? People will continue to complain about it so just eliminate the problem.
On January 13 2013 07:42 autoexec wrote: Why don't they just get rid of fungal and find a new casting power for the infestors? People will continue to complain about it so just eliminate the problem.
Because of mutas. For a race who got no other AOE anti air ZvZ would turn into permanent Muta vs Muta with no way to stall their movements. Fungal is also the primary spell that allows Zerg to take air battles as mass vikings has no real Zerg Air-to-Air counter. And no Hydras don't really work vs Terrans.
As much as i may dislike the design of fungal there is no questiom that it is need right now.
On January 12 2013 20:15 DarkLordOlli wrote: This is enough if it goes through. Carriers here I come!
Other suggestions: - You could have fungal stun only light units (important examples: phoenix, mutas, lings, marines). Units like void rays are already slow enough. Fungal effectively makes them all in units as you either win the fight or lose your whole army (which means game over).
- You could also approach infestor/BL by nerfing BLs. They're too early in the game to be as game deciding. Maybe reduce broodling spawn rate so you can trade more efficiently with a ground army. Or, instead of that, have the same upgrade nerf for broodlings. Because they're free units as well. Free units should never trade as efficiently vs super expensive units as they currently do.
Not saying do all of these at once.
U mean like the way u would want blink stalkers ( essentially free units) to trade against BLs without infestors being able to root them?
Like... what... I don't even... Stalkers are 125/50. How on earth is that free? I also recommend you read the last statement I made, I even put it in bold letters for you.
in consideration to how much BLs cost (300 min 250 gas 4 supply per BL, add Gspire+ spire (comparable to blink and twilight In some ways but not nearly as efficient since u need TC for +2 upgrades)), its basically free when you think of how easily they would counter BL in lategame zvp without fungals.
Did you consider what broodlings cost? Nothing. You can't even take out the source because of fungal. So basically a perfectly controlled infestor/BL army trades nothing but energy for an entire protoss army. Stalkers are NOT free. Nowhere near free.
Which is kind of weird argument. Do marines and stalkers pay for every bullets and lazer beam they shoot out? They're free, too. You could consider psi storm as million particle-sized "free" units that do damage over time as well. Which can be replenished unlimited as long as the templar can stay alive.
Different animations or durations don't mean anything is "free."
On January 12 2013 20:15 DarkLordOlli wrote: This is enough if it goes through. Carriers here I come!
Other suggestions: - You could have fungal stun only light units (important examples: phoenix, mutas, lings, marines). Units like void rays are already slow enough. Fungal effectively makes them all in units as you either win the fight or lose your whole army (which means game over).
- You could also approach infestor/BL by nerfing BLs. They're too early in the game to be as game deciding. Maybe reduce broodling spawn rate so you can trade more efficiently with a ground army. Or, instead of that, have the same upgrade nerf for broodlings. Because they're free units as well. Free units should never trade as efficiently vs super expensive units as they currently do.
Not saying do all of these at once.
U mean like the way u would want blink stalkers ( essentially free units) to trade against BLs without infestors being able to root them?
Like... what... I don't even... Stalkers are 125/50. How on earth is that free? I also recommend you read the last statement I made, I even put it in bold letters for you.
in consideration to how much BLs cost (300 min 250 gas 4 supply per BL, add Gspire+ spire (comparable to blink and twilight In some ways but not nearly as efficient since u need TC for +2 upgrades)), its basically free when you think of how easily they would counter BL in lategame zvp without fungals.
Did you consider what broodlings cost? Nothing. You can't even take out the source because of fungal. So basically a perfectly controlled infestor/BL army trades nothing but energy for an entire protoss army. Stalkers are NOT free. Nowhere near free.
Which is kind of weird argument. Do marines and stalkers pay for every bullets and lazer beam they shoot out? They're free, too. You could consider psi storm as million particle-sized "free" units that do damage over time as well. Which can be replenished unlimited as long as the templar can stay alive.
Different animations or durations don't mean anything is "free."
Comparing broodlings to marine bullets is misleading.
A) Marine bullets have no HP, and end up soaking up substantial damage, B) They don't cause friendly-fire from seige tanks.
But yeah, the idea behind the topic originally is the fact that these 'seemingly free' (since you dispute the 'free' semantics), are just too powerful. Case in point, infested terrans.
On January 13 2013 07:42 autoexec wrote: Why don't they just get rid of fungal and find a new casting power for the infestors? People will continue to complain about it so just eliminate the problem.
Because of mutas. For a race who got no other AOE anti air ZvZ would turn into permanent Muta vs Muta with no way to stall their movements. Fungal is also the primary spell that allows Zerg to take air battles as mass vikings has no real Zerg Air-to-Air counter. And no Hydras don't really work vs Terrans.
As much as i may dislike the design of fungal there is no questiom that it is need right now.
Muta vs. viking is slightly viking favored, corruptor vs. viking is slightly corruptor favored. No terran will equal a zerg in air unit production, air superiority is zerg's for the taking. Besides if a terran goes "mass viking" he already lost.
Fungle was given to zerg at the time were zerg was not cost effective against terran, and had equal or less macro capabilities.
But with the queen buff, zerg has got the macro power it needs. But fungle is still there, this spell which was used to fix zerg at the time were it couldnt macro correctly.
We need to nerf fungle, so that it does as much dps as it did before the buff.
Before the 8 to 4 seconds buff, fungle was doing : - 36 damages over 8 seconds = 4 dps Now, it does : - 30 damages over 4 seconds = 7.5 dps
Just set fungle so that it does only 16 damages. And you here fungle get fixed.
It still stucks mutas (which can be destroyed with fungle + queens now). But against marines, zerg needs banelings. Because medivacs will be able to save more marines with their heal. We still can see epic fungles engagements, (like stephano vs mkp for those who remember) but fungle alone wont kill units.
On January 13 2013 07:42 autoexec wrote: Why don't they just get rid of fungal and find a new casting power for the infestors? People will continue to complain about it so just eliminate the problem.
Because of mutas. For a race who got no other AOE anti air ZvZ would turn into permanent Muta vs Muta with no way to stall their movements. Fungal is also the primary spell that allows Zerg to take air battles as mass vikings has no real Zerg Air-to-Air counter. And no Hydras don't really work vs Terrans.
As much as i may dislike the design of fungal there is no questiom that it is need right now.
Muta vs. viking is slightly viking favored, corruptor vs. viking is slightly corruptor favored. No terran will equal a zerg in air unit production, air superiority is zerg's for the taking. Besides if a terran goes "mass viking" he already lost.
Still no solution to Mutas vs Mutas...
Mass Viking would be the natural responce if there is alot of Broodlords present. And adding a few ravens will change the favor to the vikings against corruptor. There is no facing a lategame terran with the infrastructure in Air-to-Air. This is still an extremely expensive trade for the zerg, and they can't keep their trading tactics going for long without being cost efficiant. Which they really can't. Even if they can split for seekers they still must take note of the PDDs.
Has there ever been consideration of an increased supply cost for them? I've never thought that their strength is as much of an issue compared to how easily massed they are. Same issue for Ghosts back before they got nerfed, the problem was that terran would get 30 of them and snipe/emp everything. Nerfing the number of them seems like the better solution than nerfing the unit.
On January 13 2013 07:42 autoexec wrote: Why don't they just get rid of fungal and find a new casting power for the infestors? People will continue to complain about it so just eliminate the problem.
Because of mutas. For a race who got no other AOE anti air ZvZ would turn into permanent Muta vs Muta with no way to stall their movements. Fungal is also the primary spell that allows Zerg to take air battles as mass vikings has no real Zerg Air-to-Air counter. And no Hydras don't really work vs Terrans.
As much as i may dislike the design of fungal there is no questiom that it is need right now.
Muta vs. viking is slightly viking favored, corruptor vs. viking is slightly corruptor favored. No terran will equal a zerg in air unit production, air superiority is zerg's for the taking. Besides if a terran goes "mass viking" he already lost.
No it's not, because Viking has better range so Corrupteur can ben kited without fungal, and there is still the Thor support that does wonder;
To be honest, the power of infested terran is more an issue for PvZ than TvZ so it's still a good nerf, but the main problem right now is still TvZ and fungal. But I don't think you can nerf fungal itself because every thing in zerg arsenal relies on it, so, for me, the best way to nerf infestor is to make them harder to use, by making them smaller. One of the main problem for terran is when they nerf the radius of EMP to fix some balance issue of TvP, it also affected TvZ and the strenght of EMP against infestor. So by making them smaller, EMP will hit more infestor, and this will also make them more sensible to tank splash and colossus.
On January 13 2013 19:05 Insoleet wrote: We still can see epic fungles engagements, (like stephano vs mkp for those who remember) but fungle alone wont kill units.
The thing is, there is absolutely nothing epic about fungals at all. Its superboring to watch, its superboring to play both with and against and it is just a shitty designed spell. Yes its needed at this point in zvz but lets not pretend a crutch is a real leg.
There are various things that could be tested:
1. Make fungal only root on creep otherwise only slow 2. Nerf damage output of fungal somewhat 3. only make fungal root air 4. Make fungal a projectile
Either one of these would probably be just fine with some finetuning. I personally prefer the first or the last over the others but either would work.
I understand that blizzard doesnt want to make a lot of changes to wol at this point as its not going to be played much in a few months so theyll probably do the easiest change if any change at all.
The reason we're not seeing any crazy changes to Fungal is that they're scared of destroying the balance in WoL. It might be that it is better for the game to change the design for Fungal, but that's what they're doing in HotS, as for WoL they just have to make it a little more fair until HotS comes to save the day. There's still tons of prize money to give out in WoL, so we should respect this decision.
I think the problem is that: - Z can be super greedy and be totally safe. - Z can be agressive (2 bases timing) and destroy greedy T (Z goes from no unit to big army in no time at all: no way to scout in time). - Z lategame too good.
No amount of nerf on the infestor is going to fix that.
On January 12 2013 20:15 DarkLordOlli wrote: This is enough if it goes through. Carriers here I come!
Other suggestions: - You could have fungal stun only light units (important examples: phoenix, mutas, lings, marines). Units like void rays are already slow enough. Fungal effectively makes them all in units as you either win the fight or lose your whole army (which means game over).
- You could also approach infestor/BL by nerfing BLs. They're too early in the game to be as game deciding. Maybe reduce broodling spawn rate so you can trade more efficiently with a ground army. Or, instead of that, have the same upgrade nerf for broodlings. Because they're free units as well. Free units should never trade as efficiently vs super expensive units as they currently do.
Not saying do all of these at once.
U mean like the way u would want blink stalkers ( essentially free units) to trade against BLs without infestors being able to root them?
Like... what... I don't even... Stalkers are 125/50. How on earth is that free? I also recommend you read the last statement I made, I even put it in bold letters for you.
in consideration to how much BLs cost (300 min 250 gas 4 supply per BL, add Gspire+ spire (comparable to blink and twilight In some ways but not nearly as efficient since u need TC for +2 upgrades)), its basically free when you think of how easily they would counter BL in lategame zvp without fungals.
Did you consider what broodlings cost? Nothing. You can't even take out the source because of fungal. So basically a perfectly controlled infestor/BL army trades nothing but energy for an entire protoss army. Stalkers are NOT free. Nowhere near free.
Which is kind of weird argument. Do marines and stalkers pay for every bullets and lazer beam they shoot out? They're free, too. You could consider psi storm as million particle-sized "free" units that do damage over time as well. Which can be replenished unlimited as long as the templar can stay alive.
Different animations or durations don't mean anything is "free."
congrats, you don't understand what free units mean, that's a hell of a performance.
you together with that guy who thinks stalkers are free units are priceless.
On January 12 2013 07:14 NEEDZMOAR wrote: since infestors are the only thing keeping Z cost efficient against bio balls, nerfing fungal is retarded, nerfing ITs is fine I guess.
Banelings are alive and well. Just because there is a superior - brokenly so - alternative doesn't mean they don't work. Not even code S level micro is consistent enough against them to warrant the tag 'cost effective', never mind the other 99.9% of the player base. Not to mention they are infinitely more exciting to watch than mass fungal.
banelings are never cost efficient on a pro level unless your opponent screws up, and thats the key words, you have to rely on your opponent screwing up for banelings to be a good gasdump.
besides, what about zvp and zvz? and no its not exciting to watch something just because there are more explosions and whatnot, I hate banelings, I hate watching it, I hate having to make them, why? because, as Ive already mentioned before, I have to rely on my opponent to fuck up, and I have to rely on luck, with medivacs banelings might not even do enough damage, blink stalkers would just be stupidly good if fungal were removed, you think zvp lategame is passive now? remove fungal and no zerg would ever attack, ever...
you know whats really breaking this game? bioballs + medivacs + infinite selection + clumping up, there u have it, without that, the other races wouldnt have to rely on guaranteed aoe damage and crowdcontrol ( sentries / infestors).
Do you realise how easy it was for T to break down equally good zerg players who didnt have Idra / DRG / leenocks apm to play muta ling bling cost efficiently?
Zerg rarely ever has to be cost efficient because their economy is usually better. Also the reason Banelings are effective versus Bio is that even when your opponent is splitting his units it means that your lings can actually be way more effective so forcing your opponent to split is also a reason for making banelings not just to punish a player for not splitting.
On January 13 2013 19:09 SomeONEx wrote: I'm glad the infestor is receiving some attention, but I still have to ask; Isn't fungal the real problem?
Actually I think ITs are a much bigger one right now. Sure fungal is unforgiving and a very strong spell but the reason you can mass infestors is that ITs make up for the loss of supply of actual fighting units. If the only thing you can do with Infestors is fungal then you only want to make enough infestors to fungal a big part of the army. You don't need 15+ infestors to do that.
On January 12 2013 20:15 DarkLordOlli wrote: This is enough if it goes through. Carriers here I come!
Other suggestions: - You could have fungal stun only light units (important examples: phoenix, mutas, lings, marines). Units like void rays are already slow enough. Fungal effectively makes them all in units as you either win the fight or lose your whole army (which means game over).
- You could also approach infestor/BL by nerfing BLs. They're too early in the game to be as game deciding. Maybe reduce broodling spawn rate so you can trade more efficiently with a ground army. Or, instead of that, have the same upgrade nerf for broodlings. Because they're free units as well. Free units should never trade as efficiently vs super expensive units as they currently do.
Not saying do all of these at once.
U mean like the way u would want blink stalkers ( essentially free units) to trade against BLs without infestors being able to root them?
Like... what... I don't even... Stalkers are 125/50. How on earth is that free? I also recommend you read the last statement I made, I even put it in bold letters for you.
in consideration to how much BLs cost (300 min 250 gas 4 supply per BL, add Gspire+ spire (comparable to blink and twilight In some ways but not nearly as efficient since u need TC for +2 upgrades)), its basically free when you think of how easily they would counter BL in lategame zvp without fungals.
Did you consider what broodlings cost? Nothing. You can't even take out the source because of fungal. So basically a perfectly controlled infestor/BL army trades nothing but energy for an entire protoss army. Stalkers are NOT free. Nowhere near free.
Which is kind of weird argument. Do marines and stalkers pay for every bullets and lazer beam they shoot out? They're free, too. You could consider psi storm as million particle-sized "free" units that do damage over time as well. Which can be replenished unlimited as long as the templar can stay alive.
Different animations or durations don't mean anything is "free."
its not about the different animations and i think you knew that before you posted, marine bullets and stalker lazers aren't units that soak up fire and block movement, so that's a horrible comparison. Broodling are free units there is no room for discussion, not saying its OP but its true that they are free infinitely replenishing units, and so are infested terrans.
What about changing the mechanism of Infested Terrans.
To be able to spawn some, we would need to use the ability "morph eggs" on our infestors, for like 5 mineralz. Like on the carriers, you would need to build IT in the infestor before spawning them. But its different than carriers because you launch your eggs on the ground, and then they morph in ITs. It's just, it doesnt cost energy, but it cost mineralz, need ot be stocked in the infestor, and each egg would have a built time.
We've collected more ladder data from our poorly made maps and find that zergs have a slight edge through the use of infestors despite the community telling us for over a year that this was a problem. Lets listen to the community 2 months before the game is dead so it can go out on a positive mark.
On January 14 2013 00:09 Insoleet wrote: What about changing the mechanism of Infested Terrans.
To be able to spawn some, we would need to use the ability "morph eggs" on our infestors, for like 5 mineralz. Like on the carriers, you would need to build IT in the infestor before spawning them. But its different than carriers because you launch your eggs on the ground, and then they morph in ITs. It's just, it doesnt cost energy, but it cost mineralz, need ot be stocked in the infestor, and each egg would have a built time.
The problem is not that they don't cost money but that they make your army much bigger than it actually is. You can have the same army value as your Zerg opponent but if he has a lot of infestors his army will actually be a lot bigger. Your change is rather clunky and since Zerg players often have big mineral banks it would still allow situations to occur in which they can heavily inflate their army size by spawning a lot of ITs. So the best way definitely is nerfing ITs.
Also making ITs weaker will increase the depth of using them. It will actually require the Zerg to decide if they want to use them in any battle because they will be weaker in lower numbers so dumping them all the time will actually hurt your army strength much more than now and it may be beneficial to save the energy for a crucial engagement. If you have been following high level Zerg play I am sure you have noticed that right now they are just spammed in any battle occurring maybe this trend will continue but there is definitely not much depth to using them right now because they are so strong that they will be very effective nearly every time they are used.
On January 13 2013 07:42 autoexec wrote: Why don't they just get rid of fungal and find a new casting power for the infestors? People will continue to complain about it so just eliminate the problem.
Because of mutas. For a race who got no other AOE anti air ZvZ would turn into permanent Muta vs Muta with no way to stall their movements. Fungal is also the primary spell that allows Zerg to take air battles as mass vikings has no real Zerg Air-to-Air counter. And no Hydras don't really work vs Terrans.
As much as i may dislike the design of fungal there is no questiom that it is need right now.
Muta vs. viking is slightly viking favored, corruptor vs. viking is slightly corruptor favored. No terran will equal a zerg in air unit production, air superiority is zerg's for the taking. Besides if a terran goes "mass viking" he already lost.
Still no solution to Mutas vs Mutas...
Mass Viking would be the natural responce if there is alot of Broodlords present. And adding a few ravens will change the favor to the vikings against corruptor. There is no facing a lategame terran with the infrastructure in Air-to-Air. This is still an extremely expensive trade for the zerg, and they can't keep their trading tactics going for long without being cost efficiant. Which they really can't. Even if they can split for seekers they still must take note of the PDDs.
I know, never said nerfing fungal doesn't necessitate some sort of counter measure, say a hydra buff. In fact I merely responded to the "no zerg AA counter" part, sorry I should have bolded it.
Terran is the least flexible race in the game. If they can match a zerg in viking production they have over committed in starports and are lacking in other parts of their infrastructure; meaning they WILL get rolled on ground. If you insist on bringing ravens into the picture it is only fair to add infestors as well, which makes the fight decisively zerg favored even without fungals. Try it out if you believe otherwise. Even if we ignore the fact that zergs tend to be ahead on bases so cost efficiency is not a requirement to begin with, the trade isn't in any shape or form more expensive for them than for terran.
On January 13 2013 07:42 autoexec wrote: Why don't they just get rid of fungal and find a new casting power for the infestors? People will continue to complain about it so just eliminate the problem.
Because of mutas. For a race who got no other AOE anti air ZvZ would turn into permanent Muta vs Muta with no way to stall their movements. Fungal is also the primary spell that allows Zerg to take air battles as mass vikings has no real Zerg Air-to-Air counter. And no Hydras don't really work vs Terrans.
As much as i may dislike the design of fungal there is no questiom that it is need right now.
Muta vs. viking is slightly viking favored, corruptor vs. viking is slightly corruptor favored. No terran will equal a zerg in air unit production, air superiority is zerg's for the taking. Besides if a terran goes "mass viking" he already lost.
Still no solution to Mutas vs Mutas...
Mass Viking would be the natural responce if there is alot of Broodlords present. And adding a few ravens will change the favor to the vikings against corruptor. There is no facing a lategame terran with the infrastructure in Air-to-Air. This is still an extremely expensive trade for the zerg, and they can't keep their trading tactics going for long without being cost efficiant. Which they really can't. Even if they can split for seekers they still must take note of the PDDs.
and then once they have viking+raven, just remax on ling bling ultra and just freaking kill the terran with his overcommittal to air then.
It sucks that this has been going on for so long, and the hardest nerf Blizzard is willing to give deals with 1 unit, and only a relative slap on the wrist at that. At this point, we're not even seeing Zerg win most games with infestors or relying on them heavily with abusive builds, so there's probably plenty of room to work with. This whole thing is just disheartening.
I think they should do the same thing to infestors that was done to High Templar. Take away the energy upgrade (pathogen glands) So when a zerg plays like shit, and throws away 10 infestors, he can't just make 10 more and not even suffer for it. I've seen plenty of games where zergs lose all their infestors carelessly, and then go on to win because it isn't even a huge set back, they can just replace all 10 at once and they start out with so much energy.
Either that or require Hive before infestor. So when zergs make nothing but drones for 10 minutes, they can actually be punished and harassed because they don't have fungal which shuts down EVERY harass tech in the game and it also wrecks the main army.
Honestly, I remember days long ago, before infestors were used much, when zergs where using roach, hydra, corruptor, OR ling, bane, muta, and they were winning events as frequently as protoss ever has. I don't think that psi storm + force field in one spell was ever necessary. Fungal shouldn't detect, it shouldn't stop blink, it shouldn't be instant, and infestors shouldn't be able to burrow move forever with no mana cost and no upgrade.
To all the zergs saying that "they need fungal because everything else zerg has is so bad", must not have been around the entire time when zergs didn't use infestors and were still placing well in tournaments, all over the world, at the highest level.
With the many other changes to the game that have happened since the early days (barracks, stim, and bunker nerfs, warp gate nerfs, blink nerfs, and buffs to queens, spore crawlers, overlord speed, any zerg that tells you they couldn't survive without fungal being what it is, is a liar. They just like having a counter-anything unit. Zerg doesn't even have to pay attention to what protoss or terran is doing. If they have 10 infestors they can produce ANY tech in the mid game to go alongside it, and win against almost anything. There is NO situation when having 10+ infestors is a mistake.
Nestea "Next question. I want to know what you are thinking of the current metagame in Starcraft 2.
I was once called the 'Great Detective', but only because there weren't many strategies at that time. I could see what strategy the opponent would do only by looking at his unit count. Nowadays a lot of matches have been played out and many interesting and unusual builds and strategies have came out, which makes it more difficult to predict. Although better mechanics are also important, I think Zerg's Broodlord and Infestor army is too strong. I don't know about ZvT, but in some maps they are way too strong in ZvP. Daybreak is a good example. Even though I am a big whiner for Zerg, I honestly think this composition is imbalanced. Solutions for this strategy should come out pretty soon though."
I've discovered my new favorite past time is checking the moderation history of the people who complain about zerg in these kinds of threads. They all usually have at least 1 prior.
On topic though, I've felt this was a good change from the first time they put it into hots. People always complain about infestors not being support-y enough and reducing their ability to find on their own is the right way to make them more support. I don't know if they're just testing the new units still but I rarely see pros make infestors until the lategame nowadays.
Honestly if you watch this game right here. You will notice that the Korean's forced a roach only battle because infestors cost to much gas meaning the force will be smaller and it hit perfectly right before stephano could get a good number. This game will be watched by many Korean zergs who are struggling with ZvZ and will notice that hitting before infestors are out will give them an edge.
On January 15 2013 03:47 Genie1 wrote: Honestly if you watch this game right here. You will notice that the Korean's forced a roach only battle because infestors cost to much gas meaning the force will be smaller and it hit perfectly right before stephano could get a good number. This game will be watched by many Korean zergs who are struggling with ZvZ and will notice that hitting before infestors are out will give them an edge.
Maybe they could make fungal into a sort of virus where you fungal a single unit and it does 40 damage over 4s. If the unit dies or the fungal growth completes then it immediately does another 40 damage to all units around it and infects the nearest unit and the process repeats. The root is removed completely.
Chain fungal would have a very different effect then. It would:
A - reward players who keep an eye on their units B - punish deathballing C - reward having multiple infestors without making them overpowered - they can no longer survive on their own since if they push forward they die
Landing 3-4 fungal growths would have a massive effect on a deathballed army.
It's clear that the A-team is working on HOTS. They almost immediately acknowledge that Infestors would be nerfed in HOTS. But in WOL? No way Jose. Go buy the xpac guys if you want a balanced game. Meanwhile, we have to endure 6 months of ZvZ's and a previously exciting game be about spamming infestors. Even when infestors do not show up, they warp the game because everybody knows you have to hit a zerg before they get infestors or you lose.
Is it a wonder why viewership keeps decreasing? David Kim really needs to be fired if Blizzard is going to show the community they give a crap. Dude was a relic balance tester too. That game suffered from a ridiculous imbalance in strafe as well that never got dealt with.
On January 15 2013 04:22 Diogenes wrote: It's clear that the A-team is working on HOTS. They almost immediately acknowledge that Infestors would be nerfed in HOTS. But in WOL? No way Jose. Go buy the xpac guys if you want a balanced game. Meanwhile, we have to endure 6 months of ZvZ's and a previously exciting game be about spamming infestors. Even when infestors do not show up, they warp the game because everybody knows you have to hit a zerg before they get infestors or you lose.
Is it a wonder why viewership keeps decreasing? David Kim really needs to be fired if Blizzard is going to show the community they give a crap. Dude was a relic balance tester too. That game suffered from a ridiculous imbalance in strafe as well that never got dealt with.
He IS part of the A-team. And it really comes down to how many changes they think they can port without wrecking the balance. These changes usually don't get more than a week or two of testing so it is not like estended analyses can be done. In HOTS they still got 2 months to get it right. Not two weeks. And noone has got prize money on the line for HOTS yet. They can be more free with what they do in HOTS.
Watching todays GSL matches. I still believe infestors should be nerfed even more. Either remove the movement while burrowed or remove infested terran completely. They would still be useful. But not as a main unit, rather a support.
On January 23 2013 22:04 KAB00000000M wrote: Watching todays GSL matches. I still believe infestors should be nerfed even more. Either remove the movement while burrowed or remove infested terran completely. They would still be useful. But not as a main unit, rather a support.
Or.. just do what they did with the ghost. Increase the energy for infested terran and reduced the radius of fungal. Is that too much?
On January 23 2013 22:04 KAB00000000M wrote: Watching todays GSL matches. I still believe infestors should be nerfed even more. Either remove the movement while burrowed or remove infested terran completely. They would still be useful. But not as a main unit, rather a support.
You mean that game between Baby vs. Leenock?
The game was very long so I guess I should watch it again but I remember Leenock losing 37 drones in the first 11 min, getting like 20 hatches sniped during the game, getting most of his tech structures killed, he also donated some ultras, infestors, even unsupported broods on several occasions, but since Baby couldn't fight his army straight on, he eventually lost to a fungal that trapped his vikings and he got crushed. The fight was not even remotely close.
On January 15 2013 04:22 Diogenes wrote: It's clear that the A-team is working on HOTS. They almost immediately acknowledge that Infestors would be nerfed in HOTS. But in WOL? No way Jose. Go buy the xpac guys if you want a balanced game. Meanwhile, we have to endure 6 months of ZvZ's and a previously exciting game be about spamming infestors. Even when infestors do not show up, they warp the game because everybody knows you have to hit a zerg before they get infestors or you lose.
Is it a wonder why viewership keeps decreasing? David Kim really needs to be fired if Blizzard is going to show the community they give a crap. Dude was a relic balance tester too. That game suffered from a ridiculous imbalance in strafe as well that never got dealt with.
I want to just point out, if anyone at blizzard knows balance it's david kim...but he has to fight against the machine that wants big explosions and cool units. If he were the only one testing and deciding if a change got made you'd probably see balance come into perspective a lot more quickly. He however is a voice in a crowd, so to single him out is just plain ignorant.
Blizzard is changing things to allow them to nerf the infestor...but they are not making the changes that allow them to do that until HoTS. Why don't potential changes translate into WoL easily?
#1. The addition of the Viper and Swarm Host in HoTS adds new dynamics that fix a lot of the issues that a heavily nerfd infestor will create. Abduct will make zerg low and mid tier units much more feasible by allowing you to pull T and P siege units out of the rear lines where your units can deal with them. The swarmlings can be used to absorb damage or siege a turtling opponent.
#2. The way the unit dynamics work currently in WoL the infestor is such a lynch pin to pretty much all zerg strategy that if blizzard messes with it to much they can easily flip zerg to the hind end of the spectrum in a hurry.
- Reduce Fungal Damage (again mind you): Ling/Infestor becomes nearly impossible to pull off which makes infestor ultra in turn very difficult to tech to and survive.
- Remove/Reduce the movement impairing effect: Vikings/Pheonix/Void Rays, will likely easily dispatch broodlords as they are slow near impossible to micro units. Ultras can no longer catch up to kiting armies and become useless. Blink stalkers have free rain vs roach based armies and can not be killed. So even if you changed it to a slow, it'd have to be so slow a broodlord can run...that's pretty darn slow.
Are changes impossible to make? No, but this is why you see the changes coming very very slowly. Any significant change to fungal could make a plethora of zerg strati impossible to use prior to HoTS.
On January 15 2013 04:22 Diogenes wrote: It's clear that the A-team is working on HOTS. They almost immediately acknowledge that Infestors would be nerfed in HOTS. But in WOL? No way Jose. Go buy the xpac guys if you want a balanced game. Meanwhile, we have to endure 6 months of ZvZ's and a previously exciting game be about spamming infestors. Even when infestors do not show up, they warp the game because everybody knows you have to hit a zerg before they get infestors or you lose.
Is it a wonder why viewership keeps decreasing? David Kim really needs to be fired if Blizzard is going to show the community they give a crap. Dude was a relic balance tester too. That game suffered from a ridiculous imbalance in strafe as well that never got dealt with.
I want to just point out, if anyone at blizzard knows balance it's david kim...but he has to fight against the machine that wants big explosions and cool units. If he were the only one testing and deciding if a change got made you'd probably see balance come into perspective a lot more quickly. He however is a voice in a crowd, so to single him out is just plain ignorant.
Have you read his patch "thoughts"
Its impossible to agree with how he justifies the patches.
Everytime I read David Kim's interviews/balance reports/thoughts etc I am utterly amazed by how incompetent he is. Keep in mind this is also the guy who ruined the balance in Dawn of War. No idea how he got hired to balance sc2.
On January 24 2013 03:51 vNmMasterT wrote: Everytime I read David Kim's interviews/balance reports/thoughts etc I am utterly amazed by how incompetent he is. Keep in mind this is also the guy who ruined the balance in Dawn of War. No idea how he got hired to balance sc2.
On January 24 2013 03:51 vNmMasterT wrote: Everytime I read David Kim's interviews/balance reports/thoughts etc I am utterly amazed by how incompetent he is. Keep in mind this is also the guy who ruined the balance in Dawn of War. No idea how he got hired to balance sc2.
I don't know what youre thinking but he balanced sc2 fairly well.
On January 24 2013 03:51 vNmMasterT wrote: Everytime I read David Kim's interviews/balance reports/thoughts etc I am utterly amazed by how incompetent he is. Keep in mind this is also the guy who ruined the balance in Dawn of War. No idea how he got hired to balance sc2.
I think you probably wouldn't do better. People don't seems to realize how many variables are affected by even the most minor things.
I personnaly would not want David Kim job for all the gold in the world.
On January 24 2013 03:51 vNmMasterT wrote: Everytime I read David Kim's interviews/balance reports/thoughts etc I am utterly amazed by how incompetent he is. Keep in mind this is also the guy who ruined the balance in Dawn of War. No idea how he got hired to balance sc2.
You clearly haven't played Dawn of War 1 series of games, do you? DKim worked only on the last expansion (SoulStorm), which added +2 races to the game and make-shift flyers for marketing reasons and was still better balanced that the expansion before it (The Dark Crusade) and so much better than the clusterfuck the previous games were, balance-wise. This is, of course, in a game that only received -2- patches due to Relic's support and IronLore financial problems.
(for anybody interested, i have a more detailed post in my history in the THQ thread about that)
Please, check that your "facts" are even remotely plausible next time, you really hurt my eyes with that ridiculousness.
ps. besides, why did this get bumped? the infestor nerf has already happened, and there probably wont be another
On January 24 2013 03:51 vNmMasterT wrote: Everytime I read David Kim's interviews/balance reports/thoughts etc I am utterly amazed by how incompetent he is. Keep in mind this is also the guy who ruined the balance in Dawn of War. No idea how he got hired to balance sc2.
You clearly haven't played Dawn of War 1 series of games, do you? DKim worked only on the last expansion (SoulStorm), which added +2 races to the game and make-shift flyers for marketing reasons and was still better balanced that the expansion before it (The Dark Crusade) and so much better than the clusterfuck the previous games were, balance-wise. This is, of course, in a game that only received -2- patches due to Relic's support and IronLore financial problems.
(for anybody interested, i have a more detailed post in my history in the THQ thread about that)
Please, check that your "facts" are even remotely plausible next time, you really hurt my eyes with that ridiculousness.
ps. besides, why did this get bumped? the infestor nerf has already happened, and there probably wont be another
rofl are you joking? kim's been working since Dark Crusade.
edit: I am not saying Kim has an easy job. Just wondering why he was hired when he has previous history of screwing up games. Also please don't say things like he balanced sc2 “fairly well” when it took him over half a year to make any changes to infestors. Look at the huge gameplay issues we have right now (and have for a looong time) and I dont think its unfair to say that he pretty much failed at his job.
On January 24 2013 03:51 vNmMasterT wrote: Everytime I read David Kim's interviews/balance reports/thoughts etc I am utterly amazed by how incompetent he is. Keep in mind this is also the guy who ruined the balance in Dawn of War. No idea how he got hired to balance sc2.
You clearly haven't played Dawn of War 1 series of games, do you? DKim worked only on the last expansion (SoulStorm), which added +2 races to the game and make-shift flyers for marketing reasons and was still better balanced that the expansion before it (The Dark Crusade) and so much better than the clusterfuck the previous games were, balance-wise. This is, of course, in a game that only received -2- patches due to Relic's support and IronLore financial problems.
(for anybody interested, i have a more detailed post in my history in the THQ thread about that)
Please, check that your "facts" are even remotely plausible next time, you really hurt my eyes with that ridiculousness.
ps. besides, why did this get bumped? the infestor nerf has already happened, and there probably wont be another
rofl are you joking? kim's been working since Dark Crusade.
edit: I am not saying Kim has an easy job. Just wondering why he was hired when he has previous history of screwing up games. Also please don't say things like he balanced sc2 “fairly well” when it took him over half a year to make any changes to infestors. Look at the huge gameplay issues we have right now (and have for a looong time) and I dont think its unfair to say that he pretty much failed at his job.
Even better, since the game balance went for the better -since- DC... talking about a series that gets 2 patches for expansion, that says something. Or didn't you read my post? DC had a ton of problems, but WA is nothing compared to it really. http://www.mobygames.com/developer/sheet/view/by_genre/developerId,309509/ i checked mobygames btw, strange
or are you seriously arguing that Winter Assault was balanced better than the later games? LoL!
On January 24 2013 03:51 vNmMasterT wrote: Everytime I read David Kim's interviews/balance reports/thoughts etc I am utterly amazed by how incompetent he is. Keep in mind this is also the guy who ruined the balance in Dawn of War. No idea how he got hired to balance sc2.
You clearly haven't played Dawn of War 1 series of games, do you? DKim worked only on the last expansion (SoulStorm), which added +2 races to the game and make-shift flyers for marketing reasons and was still better balanced that the expansion before it (The Dark Crusade) and so much better than the clusterfuck the previous games were, balance-wise. This is, of course, in a game that only received -2- patches due to Relic's support and IronLore financial problems.
(for anybody interested, i have a more detailed post in my history in the THQ thread about that)
Please, check that your "facts" are even remotely plausible next time, you really hurt my eyes with that ridiculousness.
ps. besides, why did this get bumped? the infestor nerf has already happened, and there probably wont be another
rofl are you joking? kim's been working since Dark Crusade.
edit: I am not saying Kim has an easy job. Just wondering why he was hired when he has previous history of screwing up games. Also please don't say things like he balanced sc2 “fairly well” when it took him over half a year to make any changes to infestors. Look at the huge gameplay issues we have right now (and have for a looong time) and I dont think its unfair to say that he pretty much failed at his job.
Even better, since the game balance went for the better -since- DC... talking about a series that gets 2 patches for expansion, that says something. Or didn't you read my post? DC had a ton of problems, but WA is nothing compared to it really. http://www.mobygames.com/developer/sheet/view/by_genre/developerId,309509/ i checked mobygames btw, strange
or are you seriously arguing that Winter Assault was balanced better than the later games? LoL!
More rofl from this guy. First of all WA is much more balanced than DC (maybe not soulstorm, but then soulstorm was unplayable due to exploits for a looong time). Second I highly doubt Kim worked on Soulstorm a lot (if at all) since development is outsourced to Ironlore. Even if Kim has a huge influence on Soulstorm, if you think its “even better” to wait for an expansion to fix existing balance issues in an existing game, then i don't know what to say.
You seem to keep mentioning the 2 patch thing for Soulstorm. I don't know what you're trying to say? It takes them many many many many months to release a first patch which addresses a number of game breaking bugs and exploits. I suppose you think this is good too.
Pretty ridiculous how some ignorant idiot can randomly write a bunch of crap to try and bring down my credibility when evidence can simply be found by googling “Dark Crusdae David Kim”. And then tried to turn things around with more bs logic (lol).
SS was pretty fun, but overall i think DC was better (not even going to talk about vanilla and WA): fliers were 90% useless, it was bugged as fuck (not Kim's fault though), and the new races weren't really deep. Also it was pretty darn imba like DC: in Dc necron were OP as fuck, in SS, Tau were unbeatable unless you were an eldar with really really good micro). So balance wise wasnt really that good...
On January 24 2013 03:51 vNmMasterT wrote: Everytime I read David Kim's interviews/balance reports/thoughts etc I am utterly amazed by how incompetent he is. Keep in mind this is also the guy who ruined the balance in Dawn of War. No idea how he got hired to balance sc2.
You clearly haven't played Dawn of War 1 series of games, do you? DKim worked only on the last expansion (SoulStorm), which added +2 races to the game and make-shift flyers for marketing reasons and was still better balanced that the expansion before it (The Dark Crusade) and so much better than the clusterfuck the previous games were, balance-wise. This is, of course, in a game that only received -2- patches due to Relic's support and IronLore financial problems.
(for anybody interested, i have a more detailed post in my history in the THQ thread about that)
Please, check that your "facts" are even remotely plausible next time, you really hurt my eyes with that ridiculousness.
ps. besides, why did this get bumped? the infestor nerf has already happened, and there probably wont be another
rofl are you joking? kim's been working since Dark Crusade.
edit: I am not saying Kim has an easy job. Just wondering why he was hired when he has previous history of screwing up games. Also please don't say things like he balanced sc2 “fairly well” when it took him over half a year to make any changes to infestors. Look at the huge gameplay issues we have right now (and have for a looong time) and I dont think its unfair to say that he pretty much failed at his job.
Even better, since the game balance went for the better -since- DC... talking about a series that gets 2 patches for expansion, that says something. Or didn't you read my post? DC had a ton of problems, but WA is nothing compared to it really. http://www.mobygames.com/developer/sheet/view/by_genre/developerId,309509/ i checked mobygames btw, strange
or are you seriously arguing that Winter Assault was balanced better than the later games? LoL!
More rofl from this guy. First of all WA is much more balanced than DC (maybe not soulstorm, but then soulstorm was unplayable due to exploits for a looong time). Second I highly doubt Kim worked on Soulstorm a lot (if at all) since development is outsourced to Ironlore. Even if Kim has a huge influence on Soulstorm, if you think its “even better” to wait for an expansion to fix existing balance issues in an existing game, then i don't know what to say.
You seem to keep mentioning the 2 patch thing for Soulstorm. I don't know what you're trying to say? It takes them many many many many months to release a first patch which addresses a number of game breaking bugs and exploits. I suppose you think this is good too.
Pretty ridiculous how some ignorant idiot can randomly write a bunch of crap to try and bring down my credibility when evidence can simply be found by googling “Dark Crusdae David Kim”. And then tried to turn things around with more bs logic (lol).
WA is more balanced than DC? a game where when you reach T3 units all other units become useless and you only spam terminators/warp spiders/kaserkins or w/e your race has? sure, in the same logic marines should become useless when you reach thors, and you'd need more deathballs in the game.
The soulstorms exploits are clearly balance issue, like the SoB shrine getting cancelled and giving you more money than it's worth is a balance issue! And so is the harley's ability with the side effect of erasing your bank, or the broken matchmaking in the last patch.... really? Probably DK has coded the paches himself!
I don't have to bring down your credibility, your arguments have none to begin with. Besides, i'm not "this guy", thank you, and i'd really like to see your google evidence that DC balance is worse than WA.
This is my last response, enough derailment of this thread, if you still wanna keep your ideas no matter what,free to do that, but please go say that stuff in DoW Sanctuary (now RTS sanctuary, mostly dead but still) so that i can see the reactions. Thx.
yep fliers were bad except IG, Ork and De, with a couple others being only good anti other fliers... on the new races, i beg to diasgree as a Dark Eldar (switched from eldar) 1v1 player myself but yes, balance was tiered with Tau/Eldar being on top (with some strange stuff tho, like De having fair odds vs eldar and none vs good tau (free win vs not top tau tho) and the other races having both good mu's and bad ones with Orks as the most well rounded race in the game.
edit @ answer. ok i checked your post history, now i know i shouldn't have ever answered in the first place. You are basically trying to 1 up me while not mentioning anything specific, merely mirroring and distorting what i say, while basically going for "me right,you wrong" but np, i'm sure you are an expert in DoW and played in the country championship cup 2010 in ESL like i did, right? such a bad troll.
On January 24 2013 03:51 vNmMasterT wrote: Everytime I read David Kim's interviews/balance reports/thoughts etc I am utterly amazed by how incompetent he is. Keep in mind this is also the guy who ruined the balance in Dawn of War. No idea how he got hired to balance sc2.
You clearly haven't played Dawn of War 1 series of games, do you? DKim worked only on the last expansion (SoulStorm), which added +2 races to the game and make-shift flyers for marketing reasons and was still better balanced that the expansion before it (The Dark Crusade) and so much better than the clusterfuck the previous games were, balance-wise. This is, of course, in a game that only received -2- patches due to Relic's support and IronLore financial problems.
(for anybody interested, i have a more detailed post in my history in the THQ thread about that)
Please, check that your "facts" are even remotely plausible next time, you really hurt my eyes with that ridiculousness.
ps. besides, why did this get bumped? the infestor nerf has already happened, and there probably wont be another
rofl are you joking? kim's been working since Dark Crusade.
edit: I am not saying Kim has an easy job. Just wondering why he was hired when he has previous history of screwing up games. Also please don't say things like he balanced sc2 “fairly well” when it took him over half a year to make any changes to infestors. Look at the huge gameplay issues we have right now (and have for a looong time) and I dont think its unfair to say that he pretty much failed at his job.
Even better, since the game balance went for the better -since- DC... talking about a series that gets 2 patches for expansion, that says something. Or didn't you read my post? DC had a ton of problems, but WA is nothing compared to it really. http://www.mobygames.com/developer/sheet/view/by_genre/developerId,309509/ i checked mobygames btw, strange
or are you seriously arguing that Winter Assault was balanced better than the later games? LoL!
More rofl from this guy. First of all WA is much more balanced than DC (maybe not soulstorm, but then soulstorm was unplayable due to exploits for a looong time). Second I highly doubt Kim worked on Soulstorm a lot (if at all) since development is outsourced to Ironlore. Even if Kim has a huge influence on Soulstorm, if you think its “even better” to wait for an expansion to fix existing balance issues in an existing game, then i don't know what to say.
You seem to keep mentioning the 2 patch thing for Soulstorm. I don't know what you're trying to say? It takes them many many many many months to release a first patch which addresses a number of game breaking bugs and exploits. I suppose you think this is good too.
Pretty ridiculous how some ignorant idiot can randomly write a bunch of crap to try and bring down my credibility when evidence can simply be found by googling “Dark Crusdae David Kim”. And then tried to turn things around with more bs logic (lol).
WA is more balanced than DC? a game where when you reach T3 units all other units become useless and you only spam terminators/warp spiders/kaserkins or w/e your race has? sure, in the same logic marines should become useless when you reach thors, and you'd need more deathballs in the game.
The soulstorms exploits are clearly balance issue, like the SoB shrine getting cancelled and giving you more money than it's worth is a balance issue! And so is the harley's ability with the side effect of erasing your bank, or the broken matchmaking in the last patch.... really? Probably DK has coded the paches himself!
I don't have to bring down your credibility, your arguments have none to begin with. Besides, i'm not "this guy", thank you, and i'd really like to see your google evidence that DC balance is worse than WA.
This is my last response, enough derailment of this thread, if you still wanna keep your ideas no matter what,free to do that, but please go say that stuff in DoW Sanctuary (now RTS sanctuary, mostly dead but still) so that i can see the reactions. Thx.
yep fliers were bad except IG, Ork and De, with a couple others being only good anti other fliers... on the new races, i beg to diasgree as a Dark Eldar (switched from eldar) 1v1 player myself but yes, balance was tiered with Tau/Eldar being on top (with some strange stuff tho, like De having fair odds vs eldar and none vs good tau (free win vs not top tau tho) and the other races having both good mu's and bad ones with Orks as the most well rounded race in the game.
1. I never said the exploits are balance issues and never blamed them on David Kim. 2. DC balance is worse than WA, majority of old players would agree (especially guys in DoW sanc) 3. Look through the convo you can see you are the one starting the derailment by pretending to be an expert on DoW. David Kim did a poor job at balancing DoW and he is doing a poor job at balancing sc2 now. End of.
EPT
