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On December 06 2012 00:04 Kronborg wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 23:57 Rewera wrote:
Only Koreans representing Teamliquid. Symptomatic. Will there ever be new foreign teamliquider? Will team teamliquid take on same role as teamliquid forum - promoting global e-sports for the sake of e-sports. Not like today - optimalizing use Korean assets for the sake of self succes [sport and finantial]. Why would you rather watch inferior players play this game? Edit typo
If I say I don't only watch teamliquid players will your argument become invalid?
Korean players have good infrastructure to begin with and plenty of teams to nurture their talent. Foreign players struggle. Teamliquid is powerful organisation, one of the few who have ability to not be tied for every penny they spend, penny in question being based on sponsor's money depending on big wins needed yesterday.
In the long run lack of foreign [international] competition will be death of starcraft e-sports, just wait and see. Also in Korea - SC:BW phenomenon cannot be repeat. So I belive we need to make some foreign force building their image on "Fighiting Koreans in their domination", and behind that rising talents from lower levels.
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On December 05 2012 13:31 jalstar wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 12:51 vesicular wrote:On December 05 2012 11:17 naux wrote:On December 05 2012 11:15 atrox_ wrote:
time for another SKT T1 proleague victory EG-TL are going to take the throne. The only throne they're taking is the one vacated by Air Force ACE. Counting "top" SC2 players by team (and this is mostly opinion): SKT: Rain, soO CJ: herO[join] KT: Flash STX: Bogus, Trap T8: ? KHAN: RorO Stars: Soulkey TLEG: Stephano, HerO, Taeja Of course things will change but TLEG is starting out as one of the better teams, as KesPA teams catch up they will slip a bit but not to the bottom.
I was trash talking. It's PL season, isn't that what we're supposed to do now? I mean, it's obvious Team 8 is going to dominate, anyone can see that. 
Also, I expect Stephano to crash and burn in PL.
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i ran out of jizz to jizz :/
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On December 06 2012 03:07 Rewera wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2012 00:04 Kronborg wrote:On December 05 2012 23:57 Rewera wrote:
Only Koreans representing Teamliquid. Symptomatic. Will there ever be new foreign teamliquider? Will team teamliquid take on same role as teamliquid forum - promoting global e-sports for the sake of e-sports. Not like today - optimalizing use Korean assets for the sake of self succes [sport and finantial]. Why would you rather watch inferior players play this game? Edit typo If I say I don't only watch teamliquid players will your argument become invalid? Korean players have good infrastructure to begin with and plenty of teams to nurture their talent. Foreign players struggle. Teamliquid is powerful organisation, one of the few who have ability to not be tied for every penny they spend, penny in question being based on sponsor's money depending on big wins needed yesterday. In the long run lack of foreign [international] competition will be death of starcraft e-sports, just wait and see. Also in Korea - SC:BW phenomenon cannot be repeat. So I belive we need to make some foreign force building their image on "Fighiting Koreans in their domination", and behind that rising talents from lower levels.
And koreans are to blame for the lack of motivation in the foreign community?
Here's some advice, get your ass to work, or stop complaining.
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On December 05 2012 22:27 Mandalor wrote:Care to enlighten me what issue you have with that sentence? Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 21:34 Talin wrote:On December 05 2012 20:50 Mandalor wrote:On December 05 2012 20:09 Talin wrote:On December 05 2012 13:31 jalstar wrote:On December 05 2012 12:51 vesicular wrote:On December 05 2012 11:17 naux wrote:On December 05 2012 11:15 atrox_ wrote:
time for another SKT T1 proleague victory EG-TL are going to take the throne. The only throne they're taking is the one vacated by Air Force ACE. Counting "top" SC2 players by team (and this is mostly opinion): SKT: Rain, soO CJ: herO[join] KT: Flash STX: Bogus, Trap T8: ? KHAN: RorO Stars: Soulkey TLEG: Stephano, HerO, Taeja Of course things will change but TLEG is starting out as one of the better teams, as KesPA teams catch up they will slip a bit but not to the bottom. That's a fairly superficial way of looking at things, though. If you consider the fact that Kespa teams put Proleague as their absolute highest priority, that it's not just something they do in between traveling to individual events, that they'll have a full roster available every week (the foreign team won't), that they don't stream all the time, that there are exclusive maps that you can't grind on ladder and will have to rely on your internal training regime to master, that a BO7 PL format will mean you're still going to lose if ALL the players aren't committed to Proleague for its entire duration. It won't be surprising at all to see foreign team players drop games to Paralyze and Ssak, let alone S-Class players. They might get lucky during Winners League rounds and win a few matches, but against prepared snipers on a fixed map even that much will be quitE difficult. Team 8 will likely be the bottom as things stand now, but there's a very slim chance for the foreign team to outrank STX or KT at the end of the season. That's a bold statement We haven't really seen the skill of the players that aren't stars on their team. We know that the top Kespa guys are at about the same level as the top eSF guys, but this format is all about the entire team. We pretty much know about the level of all of the EG and Liquid guys and they aren't THAT far apart from each other in terms of skill. I HIGHLY doubt they will place low in PL. In fact, I think Winner's Rounds will favor Kespa teams because it's unlikely TLEG will be able to field Stephano, Taeja and HerO in all of those rounds whereas Kespa teams will always have their full roster at hand. It's gonna be hard (and maybe a little unrealistic) to win the whole thing (I certainly think the team is going to lose against KT on week 1 considering the absence of the top players), but I would be very surprised if we find the unholy alliance at the bottom tldr: The elephants are here, but we don't know how good the baby elephants are and that's going to decide this season. Well, skill is a very vague metric. A player doesn't necessarily have to be "better" than his opponent in order to win a Proleague match - it's just a single game on a fixed map, the more prepared player can easily win versus a "better" one that didn't focus as hard on his PL map and possible opponents. The point is that Kespa teams have a set of clear, practical and logistical advantages that will skew the odds in their favor (format, maps, long season, schedules, practice regimen etc). Their players would have to be considerably worse than the foreign team players to negate all these advantages, and they're definitely not considerably worse. Even from the first round roster, it's pretty clear that the foreign team won't be as committed to the Proleague in a competitive sense. It's only a slightly more serious approach than when Liquid were playing in GSTL, but they allowed Taeja, Ret and Sheth to go play in some Red Bull thing instead and TLO streamed and played showmatches and whatnot in the meantime. The team is mostly there to raise viewership and overall popularity of the league, it actually works beautifully for both sides promotion-wise. Well... I think the main difference we'll see next year is that, with the Kespa-MLG-Dreamhack cooperation, we won't have that many overlapping tournaments. I agree that Kespa teams have a couple of advantages, I guess I just disagree with the impact those will have on the scoreboard. However, it's not like Kespa teams' players stay in Korea all the time. We've seen them at MLG and I'm pretty sure they would like to play in more foreign tournaments next year.
The only top Kespa players who can go toe to toe aginst esf players are Rain, innovation and soulkey.
Even Flash who was godly in broodwar has so many holes in his play. Soulkey made it to Ro8 last season of
GSL but as we all know he also has so many things to fix. Innovation and Rain are the top Kespa guys
without a doubt, but sadly thats it. If I were to name top non-kespa players Id have a pretty long list: Hero(not esf though)
,mvp,DRG,Creator,Life ,Taeja,Violet, Parting etc etc.
I dont disagree with the argument that top Kespa players can beat any top non kespa pros, but my point is that the
number of top notch players in Kespa is so small.
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I wish Kespa wouldn't be... I don't even know what to call it - stupid? incompetent? not caring? I mean, Proleague is starting in 2 days and few hours and only thing we know about broadcasts is this:
There will be english broadcasts for weekend matches on OGN twitch commentated by Doa and Montecristo, with VoDs available, possibly for a subsription fee.
We don't know if there will be english broadcasts for weekdays matches. If yes, will we have VoDs available? Subscription based? Free? Same subscription as for weekend matches or different one? If no english for weekdays, will we have at least access to Korean broadcasts? What about VoDs from that?
How are we supposed to support the most prestigious teamleague in the world if we don't know any of this? How are we supposed to hype it up? I don't want to say that 'no one cares' about foreign audience, but.... That's really what it looks like.
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Ok.
So where exactly am I watching this? Is there an english stream?
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Anybody know how proleague will handle the release of HotS in March? Will they switch in the middle or will they play WoL for the entire year?
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GL foreign owned hope
Edit, i said something trolly about kt, with no blind rawr in sight its not worth it.
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On December 06 2012 05:00 vesicular wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 13:31 jalstar wrote:On December 05 2012 12:51 vesicular wrote:On December 05 2012 11:17 naux wrote:On December 05 2012 11:15 atrox_ wrote:
time for another SKT T1 proleague victory EG-TL are going to take the throne. The only throne they're taking is the one vacated by Air Force ACE. Counting "top" SC2 players by team (and this is mostly opinion): SKT: Rain, soO CJ: herO[join] KT: Flash STX: Bogus, Trap T8: ? KHAN: RorO Stars: Soulkey TLEG: Stephano, HerO, Taeja Of course things will change but TLEG is starting out as one of the better teams, as KesPA teams catch up they will slip a bit but not to the bottom. I was trash talking. It's PL season, isn't that what we're supposed to do now? I mean, it's obvious Team 8 is going to dominate, anyone can see that. Also, I expect Stephano to crash and burn in PL.
Agreed. I'm also predicting KT Stats to make a name for himself.
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Liquid Geniuses has a very good chance of winning Proleague because they'll have such a deep roster of strong players while no KeSPA team currently has anything to match it.
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My honest predictions:
No one of the Code S caliber guys will do anyhing and a final match between penguin and Incontrol/NoNy will decide it in a 95 minute game of pure awesomeness in favor of TG/EL :D
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On December 06 2012 05:57 Zzoram wrote:
Liquid Geniuses has a very good chance of winning Proleague because they'll have such a deep roster of strong players while no KeSPA team currently has anything to match it.
I think they have a very strong case for winning it all but if half there best players are at NASL they probably wont win opening day.
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On December 06 2012 05:20 mongmong wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 22:27 Mandalor wrote:On December 05 2012 22:18 mongmong wrote:
lol.. ok... Care to enlighten me what issue you have with that sentence? On December 05 2012 21:34 Talin wrote:On December 05 2012 20:50 Mandalor wrote:On December 05 2012 20:09 Talin wrote:On December 05 2012 13:31 jalstar wrote:On December 05 2012 12:51 vesicular wrote:On December 05 2012 11:17 naux wrote:On December 05 2012 11:15 atrox_ wrote:
time for another SKT T1 proleague victory EG-TL are going to take the throne. The only throne they're taking is the one vacated by Air Force ACE. Counting "top" SC2 players by team (and this is mostly opinion): SKT: Rain, soO CJ: herO[join] KT: Flash STX: Bogus, Trap T8: ? KHAN: RorO Stars: Soulkey TLEG: Stephano, HerO, Taeja Of course things will change but TLEG is starting out as one of the better teams, as KesPA teams catch up they will slip a bit but not to the bottom. That's a fairly superficial way of looking at things, though. If you consider the fact that Kespa teams put Proleague as their absolute highest priority, that it's not just something they do in between traveling to individual events, that they'll have a full roster available every week (the foreign team won't), that they don't stream all the time, that there are exclusive maps that you can't grind on ladder and will have to rely on your internal training regime to master, that a BO7 PL format will mean you're still going to lose if ALL the players aren't committed to Proleague for its entire duration. It won't be surprising at all to see foreign team players drop games to Paralyze and Ssak, let alone S-Class players. They might get lucky during Winners League rounds and win a few matches, but against prepared snipers on a fixed map even that much will be quitE difficult. Team 8 will likely be the bottom as things stand now, but there's a very slim chance for the foreign team to outrank STX or KT at the end of the season. That's a bold statement We haven't really seen the skill of the players that aren't stars on their team. We know that the top Kespa guys are at about the same level as the top eSF guys, but this format is all about the entire team. We pretty much know about the level of all of the EG and Liquid guys and they aren't THAT far apart from each other in terms of skill. I HIGHLY doubt they will place low in PL. In fact, I think Winner's Rounds will favor Kespa teams because it's unlikely TLEG will be able to field Stephano, Taeja and HerO in all of those rounds whereas Kespa teams will always have their full roster at hand. It's gonna be hard (and maybe a little unrealistic) to win the whole thing (I certainly think the team is going to lose against KT on week 1 considering the absence of the top players), but I would be very surprised if we find the unholy alliance at the bottom tldr: The elephants are here, but we don't know how good the baby elephants are and that's going to decide this season. Well, skill is a very vague metric. A player doesn't necessarily have to be "better" than his opponent in order to win a Proleague match - it's just a single game on a fixed map, the more prepared player can easily win versus a "better" one that didn't focus as hard on his PL map and possible opponents. The point is that Kespa teams have a set of clear, practical and logistical advantages that will skew the odds in their favor (format, maps, long season, schedules, practice regimen etc). Their players would have to be considerably worse than the foreign team players to negate all these advantages, and they're definitely not considerably worse. Even from the first round roster, it's pretty clear that the foreign team won't be as committed to the Proleague in a competitive sense. It's only a slightly more serious approach than when Liquid were playing in GSTL, but they allowed Taeja, Ret and Sheth to go play in some Red Bull thing instead and TLO streamed and played showmatches and whatnot in the meantime. The team is mostly there to raise viewership and overall popularity of the league, it actually works beautifully for both sides promotion-wise. Well... I think the main difference we'll see next year is that, with the Kespa-MLG-Dreamhack cooperation, we won't have that many overlapping tournaments. I agree that Kespa teams have a couple of advantages, I guess I just disagree with the impact those will have on the scoreboard. However, it's not like Kespa teams' players stay in Korea all the time. We've seen them at MLG and I'm pretty sure they would like to play in more foreign tournaments next year. The only top Kespa players who can go toe to toe aginst esf players are Rain, innovation and soulkey. Even Flash who was godly in broodwar has so many holes in his play. Soulkey made it to Ro8 last season of GSL but as we all know he also has so many things to fix. Innovation and Rain are the top Kespa guys without a doubt, but sadly thats it. If I were to name top non-kespa players Id have a pretty long list: Hero(not esf though) ,mvp,DRG,Creator,Life ,Taeja,Violet, Parting etc etc. I dont disagree with the argument that top Kespa players can beat any top non kespa pros, but my point is that the number of top notch players in Kespa is so small.
Before I launch into a mini-rant here let me clarify by saying that the Elephant was defeated. We all were able to rejoice this year and see that GSL was not, in fact, a farce.
With that said, you're SOOOOOOOOOO wrong with this:
The only top Kespa players who can go toe to toe aginst esf players are Rain, innovation and soulkey.
You're saying a player has to reach GSL RO8 to be considered going toe to toe against ESF players? That's ridiculous. What about all the MvP results? What about Flash's 4th place finish at MLG? What about the hordes of KESPA players that made it through Code A qualifers this season and last season? There's a double standard here. It's been several seasons since Creator and DRG have been RO8 at GSL and yet you list them among the top players.
There's been a grand total of two GSL Code S tournaments with Kespa players in them. There will absolutely be more Kespa players in the RO8 than just the three that you listed there in the seasons to come because many of them are already at that skill level they just haven't had quite enough opportunity to show it yet.
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On December 06 2012 05:37 Ammanas wrote:
I wish Kespa wouldn't be... I don't even know what to call it - stupid? incompetent? not caring? I mean, Proleague is starting in 2 days and few hours and only thing we know about broadcasts is this:
There will be english broadcasts for weekend matches on OGN twitch commentated by Doa and Montecristo, with VoDs available, possibly for a subsription fee.
We don't know if there will be english broadcasts for weekdays matches. If yes, will we have VoDs available? Subscription based? Free? Same subscription as for weekend matches or different one? If no english for weekdays, will we have at least access to Korean broadcasts? What about VoDs from that?
How are we supposed to support the most prestigious teamleague in the world if we don't know any of this? How are we supposed to hype it up? I don't want to say that 'no one cares' about foreign audience, but.... That's really what it looks like.
This. It is driving me absolutely bat shit that this is supposed to be a prestigious league and yet we know very little about it. If money is the name of the game they aren't doing a very good job reaching out to areas that would give them money in a heartbeat.
Meh.
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On December 06 2012 07:12 ExPresident wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2012 05:37 Ammanas wrote:
I wish Kespa wouldn't be... I don't even know what to call it - stupid? incompetent? not caring? I mean, Proleague is starting in 2 days and few hours and only thing we know about broadcasts is this:
There will be english broadcasts for weekend matches on OGN twitch commentated by Doa and Montecristo, with VoDs available, possibly for a subsription fee.
We don't know if there will be english broadcasts for weekdays matches. If yes, will we have VoDs available? Subscription based? Free? Same subscription as for weekend matches or different one? If no english for weekdays, will we have at least access to Korean broadcasts? What about VoDs from that?
How are we supposed to support the most prestigious teamleague in the world if we don't know any of this? How are we supposed to hype it up? I don't want to say that 'no one cares' about foreign audience, but.... That's really what it looks like. This. It is driving me absolutely bat shit that this is supposed to be a prestigious league and yet we know very little about it. If money is the name of the game they aren't doing a very good job reaching out to areas that would give them money in a heartbeat. Meh.
Kespa is probably still the in the "only korean viewers matter" group and slowly transitioning.
It's kinda sad it takes so long tough, last OSL season i couldn't watch any stream cause it was laggy as hell till the second semi finals.
They simply need to advertise better with the foreigner viewers somehow, a simple twitch tv channel aint enough here.
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On December 04 2012 21:22 Bugi wrote:Well Flash vs Idra should be awsome 50min game 
More like Flash will bunker rush and Idra will ragequit as soon as he sees the marines and the scv.
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Is IdrA in Korea? If not I think there's only 6 EG-TL players in Korea for the bo7... PuMa, JYP, HuK, ThorZaIN, Zenio, Sea... HerO and TaeJa will be at NASL, Stephano is in France... Who will be the 7th player? o_o
Also for all of you people asking about what the hell is happening with Proleague, DoA will be making a TL post today (Korean time, AKA the 6th) explaining everything you need to know about Proleague.
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Does anyone know if we can watch this live? Im in Seoul atm and would love to catch it
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It would be impossible to ask for a better opening match. All this waiting is such a torture...
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EPT
