• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 01:43
CEST 07:43
KST 14:43
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Serral wins EWC 202532Tournament Spotlight: FEL Cracow 202510Power Rank - Esports World Cup 202580RSL Season 1 - Final Week9[ASL19] Finals Recap: Standing Tall15
Community News
[BSL 2025] H2 - Team Wars, Weeklies & SB Ladder8EWC 2025 - Replay Pack4Google Play ASL (Season 20) Announced43BSL Team Wars - Bonyth, Dewalt, Hawk & Sziky teams10Weekly Cups (July 14-20): Final Check-up0
StarCraft 2
General
The GOAT ranking of GOAT rankings Tournament Spotlight: FEL Cracow 2025 Classic: "It's a thick wall to break through to become world champ" Firefly given lifetime ban by ESIC following match-fixing investigation Serral wins EWC 2025
Tourneys
TaeJa vs Creator Bo7 SC Evo Showmatch Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament Sea Duckling Open (Global, Bronze-Diamond) FEL Cracov 2025 (July 27) - $10,000 live event Esports World Cup 2025
Strategy
How did i lose this ZvP, whats the proper response
Custom Maps
External Content
Mutation # 484 Magnetic Pull Mutation #239 Bad Weather Mutation # 483 Kill Bot Wars Mutation # 482 Wheel of Misfortune
Brood War
General
Google Play ASL (Season 20) Announced Which top zerg/toss will fail in qualifiers? BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ 2025 Season 2 Ladder map pool Flash Announces (and Retracts) Hiatus From ASL
Tourneys
[ASL20] Online Qualifiers Day 1 [Megathread] Daily Proleagues Small VOD Thread 2.0 [BSL] Non-Korean Championship - Final weekend
Strategy
[G] Mineral Boosting Muta micro map competition Does 1 second matter in StarCraft? Simple Questions, Simple Answers
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Nintendo Switch Thread Beyond All Reason Total Annihilation Server - TAForever [MMORPG] Tree of Savior (Successor of Ragnarok)
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
Vanilla Mini Mafia TL Mafia Community Thread
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Canadian Politics Mega-thread Stop Killing Games - European Citizens Initiative
Fan Clubs
INnoVation Fan Club SKT1 Classic Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread [\m/] Heavy Metal Thread Movie Discussion! [Manga] One Piece Korean Music Discussion
Sports
2024 - 2025 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 NBA General Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Gtx660 graphics card replacement Installation of Windows 10 suck at "just a moment" Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
TeamLiquid Team Shirt On Sale The Automated Ban List
Blogs
The Link Between Fitness and…
TrAiDoS
momentary artworks from des…
tankgirl
from making sc maps to makin…
Husyelt
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Socialism Anyone?
GreenHorizons
Eight Anniversary as a TL…
Mizenhauer
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 583 users

The Other Gaming Gender (Armchair Athleticism) - Page 7

Forum Index > SC2 General
Post a Reply
Prev 1 5 6 7 8 9 15 Next All
Torte de Lini
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Germany38463 Posts
January 03 2013 22:14 GMT
#121
I'm convinced, however, that the skill level of female tournaments being lower is a result of the sample group being lower.


Bingo yes.
That's why comparison between two genders is just wrong.
https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)
Dubsy
Profile Joined July 2011
Canada186 Posts
January 03 2013 22:30 GMT
#122
I really don't think females take the harshest criticism... I'm actually shocked how well the disproportionate amount of transgender females have been received.

I totally support female tournaments/players/hosts/casters/teams as long as they support themselves. If they are fiscally draining other SC2 resources then I have a problem with it. Frankly I think the "female" angle is a poor investment avenue for SC but if there is a niche that can support itself I'm all for it. What I don't want is a an "IPL 6 - ladies invitational" which drains stream time/player salary/caster salary but isn't paying for itself. If people prefer watching a clueless bimbo prance around on stage than some amazing host commentator; then frankly the girl is better qualified and deserves the job. NB: that's not a commentary on that twitter feud, the female actually handled herself very well in comparison to that idiot (outside of her comparing herself to an affirmative action beneficiary).
With a right-left, right-left you're toothless, And then you say "Goddamn they ruthless!"
Synche
Profile Joined May 2010
United States1345 Posts
January 03 2013 22:38 GMT
#123
On November 20 2012 05:20 dddoushio wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 20 2012 03:03 Torte de Lini wrote:

[*] “Female gamers who are not achieving, don’t deserve to be on a team”



I don't understand how this is prejudice


It's not, that's the whole crux of the issue IMO. Some people view this as something horrific like racism.

It's simply merit based promotion.

People have pretty much accepted Scarlett. There's the normal questions of is she good right now, etc. But I mean if another person came along with the same type of results, there might be some small minority of people who are vocal. But people like myself would accept her. I guess I have the conceit to think I might be in the majority on this.
Dubsy
Profile Joined July 2011
Canada186 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-01-03 22:41:47
January 03 2013 22:40 GMT
#124
On January 04 2013 07:14 Torte de Lini wrote:
Show nested quote +
I'm convinced, however, that the skill level of female tournaments being lower is a result of the sample group being lower.


Bingo yes.
That's why comparison between two genders is just wrong.


I can't say I agree with that. There are plenty of women Soccer/basketball/tennis players and the best players are always going to be men. On a more comparable level there are lots of women Poker/Pool/Golf/Chess players and the elite of the elite are still always men.

It's not about women being the BEST at something. The LPGA can support itself and is plenty entertaining but that doesn't mean women playing in the US open or its gonna be considered sexist. They're just not at the same level. (Looking at you Michelle Wie)

You too Manon Rheaume.
With a right-left, right-left you're toothless, And then you say "Goddamn they ruthless!"
Torte de Lini
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Germany38463 Posts
January 03 2013 23:24 GMT
#125
On January 04 2013 07:40 Dubsy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 04 2013 07:14 Torte de Lini wrote:
I'm convinced, however, that the skill level of female tournaments being lower is a result of the sample group being lower.


Bingo yes.
That's why comparison between two genders is just wrong.


I can't say I agree with that. There are plenty of women Soccer/basketball/tennis players and the best players are always going to be men. On a more comparable level there are lots of women Poker/Pool/Golf/Chess players and the elite of the elite are still always men.

It's not about women being the BEST at something. The LPGA can support itself and is plenty entertaining but that doesn't mean women playing in the US open or its gonna be considered sexist. They're just not at the same level. (Looking at you Michelle Wie)

You too Manon Rheaume.


Maybe, but that doesn't necessarily mean we shouldn't have women's leagues to not find out.
https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)
Dubsy
Profile Joined July 2011
Canada186 Posts
January 03 2013 23:33 GMT
#126
On January 04 2013 08:24 Torte de Lini wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 04 2013 07:40 Dubsy wrote:
On January 04 2013 07:14 Torte de Lini wrote:
I'm convinced, however, that the skill level of female tournaments being lower is a result of the sample group being lower.


Bingo yes.
That's why comparison between two genders is just wrong.


I can't say I agree with that. There are plenty of women Soccer/basketball/tennis players and the best players are always going to be men. On a more comparable level there are lots of women Poker/Pool/Golf/Chess players and the elite of the elite are still always men.

It's not about women being the BEST at something. The LPGA can support itself and is plenty entertaining but that doesn't mean we need women playing in the US open or its gonna be considered sexist. They're just not at the same level. (Looking at you Michelle Wie)

You too Manon Rheaume.


Maybe, but that doesn't necessarily mean we shouldn't have women's leagues to not find out.


Uhhh... Yeah that's why I said I'm in favor of them if they can support themselves financially. If they're just siphoning funds from the real money makers and burning it because it turns out female tourneys are unsustainable, then I do not support them at all.
With a right-left, right-left you're toothless, And then you say "Goddamn they ruthless!"
Torte de Lini
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Germany38463 Posts
January 03 2013 23:37 GMT
#127
On January 04 2013 08:33 Dubsy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 04 2013 08:24 Torte de Lini wrote:
On January 04 2013 07:40 Dubsy wrote:
On January 04 2013 07:14 Torte de Lini wrote:
I'm convinced, however, that the skill level of female tournaments being lower is a result of the sample group being lower.


Bingo yes.
That's why comparison between two genders is just wrong.


I can't say I agree with that. There are plenty of women Soccer/basketball/tennis players and the best players are always going to be men. On a more comparable level there are lots of women Poker/Pool/Golf/Chess players and the elite of the elite are still always men.

It's not about women being the BEST at something. The LPGA can support itself and is plenty entertaining but that doesn't mean we need women playing in the US open or its gonna be considered sexist. They're just not at the same level. (Looking at you Michelle Wie)

You too Manon Rheaume.


Maybe, but that doesn't necessarily mean we shouldn't have women's leagues to not find out.


Uhhh... Yeah that's why I said I'm in favor of them if they can support themselves financially. If they're just siphoning funds from the real money makers and burning it because it turns out female tourneys are unsustainable, then I do not support them at all.


So then E-Sports shouldn't have been started either then?
I can see your point because it is logical, but at the same time, it has its flaws that I want to hear your view on.
https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)
dUTtrOACh
Profile Joined December 2010
Canada2339 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-01-03 23:57:18
January 03 2013 23:55 GMT
#128
On January 04 2013 07:40 Dubsy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 04 2013 07:14 Torte de Lini wrote:
I'm convinced, however, that the skill level of female tournaments being lower is a result of the sample group being lower.


Bingo yes.
That's why comparison between two genders is just wrong.


I can't say I agree with that. There are plenty of women Soccer/basketball/tennis players and the best players are always going to be men. On a more comparable level there are lots of women Poker/Pool/Golf/Chess players and the elite of the elite are still always men.

It's not about women being the BEST at something. The LPGA can support itself and is plenty entertaining but that doesn't mean women playing in the US open or its gonna be considered sexist. They're just not at the same level. (Looking at you Michelle Wie)

You too Manon Rheaume.


Poker, Pool, Chess & Golf? These are pretty much sports where the elite being mostly male are directly a result of them being very 'masculine' activities. These games are also centuries old, with generations of clout. eSports is new & fresh compared to any of these, and shouldn't be held to the same standard. It's also tiny in comparison. You take something tiny and marginalize what could potentially be 50% (by virtue of approx. man to woman ratio) of the audience, and you keep it tiny forever. Maybe after centuries of male dominance in unisex eSports leagues can it be determined if men are actually better than women at a game, requiring a separate league. Starcraft 2 doesn't have centuries to make this case.

EDIT: And yet, already we have people who are convinced that women can't realistically compete vs men at a computer game? lol.
twitch.tv/duttroach
Bodzilla
Profile Joined March 2011
Australia472 Posts
January 04 2013 00:25 GMT
#129
it's a moot point this entire thing.

Scarlett is the most recognized and respected player in the NA scene. She's done this off the back of amazing in-game performances something any male to be known in the scene as a professional has to do.

The glass ceiling is an illusion for anybody that doesn't have the drive or determination to break it, like she has.
when life gives you lemons, make banelings
VorGirL
Profile Joined November 2011
72 Posts
January 04 2013 02:06 GMT
#130
I certainly wish there would be more Iron Lady tournaments. I had allot of fun competing (and losing) in one last year.

I also, of course, like to compete in the plat level tourny's on Z33k. But its more interesting to me as a female gamer to enter a girls only tournament just to mix it up a bit and meet other girl gamers. I think it's be awesome if Frag Dolls started playing sc2.
Torte de Lini
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Germany38463 Posts
January 04 2013 02:55 GMT
#131
Yes, female leagues encourage participation
https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)
StarStruck
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
25339 Posts
January 04 2013 02:58 GMT
#132
On January 04 2013 08:24 Torte de Lini wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 04 2013 07:40 Dubsy wrote:
On January 04 2013 07:14 Torte de Lini wrote:
I'm convinced, however, that the skill level of female tournaments being lower is a result of the sample group being lower.


Bingo yes.
That's why comparison between two genders is just wrong.


I can't say I agree with that. There are plenty of women Soccer/basketball/tennis players and the best players are always going to be men. On a more comparable level there are lots of women Poker/Pool/Golf/Chess players and the elite of the elite are still always men.

It's not about women being the BEST at something. The LPGA can support itself and is plenty entertaining but that doesn't mean women playing in the US open or its gonna be considered sexist. They're just not at the same level. (Looking at you Michelle Wie)

You too Manon Rheaume.


Maybe, but that doesn't necessarily mean we shouldn't have women's leagues to not find out.


You need actual interest. Right now there's too much shit as is. It goes back to what I said earlier about practically no viewers and this isn't gender specific. It applies to many smaller tournaments. Remember that regional you did Torte? What was it if I remember correctly when I was there I think it was 97 or 120 something for the WCS, oh wait I mean WCG I believe. It applies to many things. Right now CSL Utah versus George Mason is at 127 viewers as I'm writing this. It's fairly common.
Josh111
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
United States239 Posts
January 04 2013 02:59 GMT
#133
On November 20 2012 04:34 Grumbels wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 20 2012 04:11 Noobity wrote:
The only, only problem I have with the discussion is the idea that female-only tournaments aren't sexist, while male only tournaments would be.

That's like saying affirmative action is racist.
Show nested quote +
On November 20 2012 04:11 Noobity wrote:
I don't like the way society is going about this kind of thing in general. Yes, women have it hard in a lot of ways, and I'm not trying to slight that. But men have it hard in a lot of other ways, and this isn't really brought to light ever. As a man who likes to think he's respectful and neutral regarding sex as possible, the rights that I don't have regarding my children, or a failed marriage, or any number of other issues caused by men in the past is pretty frustrating as it is. We have a huge issue of equality, where women have different rights from men everywhere and that's the bigger issue. Allowing tournaments limited to only one sex, be it male or female, while a great idea in theory, can only be a stepping stone in my opinion.

This is ridiculous, one problem society does not have is males being discriminated against. Just look at this community, where maybe some female players get preferential treatment in some ways, but mostly they have to put up with incredible amounts of hostility from the community for their gender. They can't ever achieve anything without constant discussion about it, Scarlett for instance still has to put up with a multitude of trolls on reddit making disgusting comments every time she's mentioned - although her case is slightly different of course.

Show nested quote +
On November 20 2012 04:22 Uncreative_Troll wrote:
Females are a minority receiving the community’s strongest criticisms, but also receiving the least opportunities.

I don't agree with that sentence. We don't see male Diamond(?) players getting into a top Korean team or males joining pro teams as a player while having barely touched Sc2 the last months... It's much easier to get noticed (and get opportunities) as a girl in a male dominated scene and I openly admit that I sometimes prefer the stream of a random female player with a webcam over a Progamer.

Right now, females suffer from 2 prejudices:
...
“Female gamers who are not achieving, don’t deserve to be on a team”

That's not actually a prejudice but an oppinion and a question of consistency. I don't think that many disagree with "Gamers who are not achieving, don't deserve to be on a team".
I never noticed a discussion where someone asked for a female to be kicked out of a team cause she had no achievements (after the first announcement).

Djokovic and Sharapova are both big tennis stars, yet Sharapova would lose without winning any games if they faced off. Stephano is the hero of the foreigner community, yet there are many Korean players that would be highly favored against him, even though he makes more money and has more fame. The WCS celebrated local tournament winners, they received a prize, were spotlighted, interviewed etc. Yet a lot of these players won't go far in a 'legit' tournament.

At one point or another you have to realize that when you have divisions in the scene, with separate audiences etc. that then each scene can have its own stars. I honestly think that the best thing for female gaming would be to have more female leagues and more females playing the game.


Affirmative Action is racist.....
StarStruck
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
25339 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-01-04 03:10:56
January 04 2013 03:09 GMT
#134
On January 04 2013 11:59 Josh111 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 20 2012 04:34 Grumbels wrote:
On November 20 2012 04:11 Noobity wrote:
The only, only problem I have with the discussion is the idea that female-only tournaments aren't sexist, while male only tournaments would be.

That's like saying affirmative action is racist.
On November 20 2012 04:11 Noobity wrote:
I don't like the way society is going about this kind of thing in general. Yes, women have it hard in a lot of ways, and I'm not trying to slight that. But men have it hard in a lot of other ways, and this isn't really brought to light ever. As a man who likes to think he's respectful and neutral regarding sex as possible, the rights that I don't have regarding my children, or a failed marriage, or any number of other issues caused by men in the past is pretty frustrating as it is. We have a huge issue of equality, where women have different rights from men everywhere and that's the bigger issue. Allowing tournaments limited to only one sex, be it male or female, while a great idea in theory, can only be a stepping stone in my opinion.

This is ridiculous, one problem society does not have is males being discriminated against. Just look at this community, where maybe some female players get preferential treatment in some ways, but mostly they have to put up with incredible amounts of hostility from the community for their gender. They can't ever achieve anything without constant discussion about it, Scarlett for instance still has to put up with a multitude of trolls on reddit making disgusting comments every time she's mentioned - although her case is slightly different of course.

On November 20 2012 04:22 Uncreative_Troll wrote:
Females are a minority receiving the community’s strongest criticisms, but also receiving the least opportunities.

I don't agree with that sentence. We don't see male Diamond(?) players getting into a top Korean team or males joining pro teams as a player while having barely touched Sc2 the last months... It's much easier to get noticed (and get opportunities) as a girl in a male dominated scene and I openly admit that I sometimes prefer the stream of a random female player with a webcam over a Progamer.

Right now, females suffer from 2 prejudices:
...
“Female gamers who are not achieving, don’t deserve to be on a team”

That's not actually a prejudice but an oppinion and a question of consistency. I don't think that many disagree with "Gamers who are not achieving, don't deserve to be on a team".
I never noticed a discussion where someone asked for a female to be kicked out of a team cause she had no achievements (after the first announcement).

Djokovic and Sharapova are both big tennis stars, yet Sharapova would lose without winning any games if they faced off. Stephano is the hero of the foreigner community, yet there are many Korean players that would be highly favored against him, even though he makes more money and has more fame. The WCS celebrated local tournament winners, they received a prize, were spotlighted, interviewed etc. Yet a lot of these players won't go far in a 'legit' tournament.

At one point or another you have to realize that when you have divisions in the scene, with separate audiences etc. that then each scene can have its own stars. I honestly think that the best thing for female gaming would be to have more female leagues and more females playing the game.


Affirmative Action is racist.....


Heh and then you would have those people out there saying how they aren't legit because they aren't playing against the toughest competition and history repeats itself. There are women's leagues for practically everything. Heck, even MBC had a women's league for BW and once the ratings came in that was it. No more.

On January 04 2013 05:23 NotRandoMNamE wrote:
I believe KESPA had an all female tournament before in BW, which tossgirl won every time but I'm not sure what happened to it now.


^

This guy alluded to it and everyone knew she was the heavy favorite. Anyway, it was only one time and the ratings were terrible.
Josh111
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
United States239 Posts
January 04 2013 03:25 GMT
#135
On January 04 2013 12:09 StarStruck wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 04 2013 11:59 Josh111 wrote:
On November 20 2012 04:34 Grumbels wrote:
On November 20 2012 04:11 Noobity wrote:
The only, only problem I have with the discussion is the idea that female-only tournaments aren't sexist, while male only tournaments would be.

That's like saying affirmative action is racist.
On November 20 2012 04:11 Noobity wrote:
I don't like the way society is going about this kind of thing in general. Yes, women have it hard in a lot of ways, and I'm not trying to slight that. But men have it hard in a lot of other ways, and this isn't really brought to light ever. As a man who likes to think he's respectful and neutral regarding sex as possible, the rights that I don't have regarding my children, or a failed marriage, or any number of other issues caused by men in the past is pretty frustrating as it is. We have a huge issue of equality, where women have different rights from men everywhere and that's the bigger issue. Allowing tournaments limited to only one sex, be it male or female, while a great idea in theory, can only be a stepping stone in my opinion.

This is ridiculous, one problem society does not have is males being discriminated against. Just look at this community, where maybe some female players get preferential treatment in some ways, but mostly they have to put up with incredible amounts of hostility from the community for their gender. They can't ever achieve anything without constant discussion about it, Scarlett for instance still has to put up with a multitude of trolls on reddit making disgusting comments every time she's mentioned - although her case is slightly different of course.

On November 20 2012 04:22 Uncreative_Troll wrote:
Females are a minority receiving the community’s strongest criticisms, but also receiving the least opportunities.

I don't agree with that sentence. We don't see male Diamond(?) players getting into a top Korean team or males joining pro teams as a player while having barely touched Sc2 the last months... It's much easier to get noticed (and get opportunities) as a girl in a male dominated scene and I openly admit that I sometimes prefer the stream of a random female player with a webcam over a Progamer.

Right now, females suffer from 2 prejudices:
...
“Female gamers who are not achieving, don’t deserve to be on a team”

That's not actually a prejudice but an oppinion and a question of consistency. I don't think that many disagree with "Gamers who are not achieving, don't deserve to be on a team".
I never noticed a discussion where someone asked for a female to be kicked out of a team cause she had no achievements (after the first announcement).

Djokovic and Sharapova are both big tennis stars, yet Sharapova would lose without winning any games if they faced off. Stephano is the hero of the foreigner community, yet there are many Korean players that would be highly favored against him, even though he makes more money and has more fame. The WCS celebrated local tournament winners, they received a prize, were spotlighted, interviewed etc. Yet a lot of these players won't go far in a 'legit' tournament.

At one point or another you have to realize that when you have divisions in the scene, with separate audiences etc. that then each scene can have its own stars. I honestly think that the best thing for female gaming would be to have more female leagues and more females playing the game.


Affirmative Action is racist.....


Heh and then you would have those people out there saying how they aren't legit because they aren't playing against the toughest competition and history repeats itself. There are women's leagues for practically everything. Heck, even MBC had a women's league for BW and once the ratings came in that was it. No more.

Show nested quote +
On January 04 2013 05:23 NotRandoMNamE wrote:
I believe KESPA had an all female tournament before in BW, which tossgirl won every time but I'm not sure what happened to it now.


^

This guy alluded to it and everyone knew she was the heavy favorite. Anyway, it was only one time and the ratings were terrible.


Never said anything about not having women's leagues or that women leagues are not legit or anything. Just someone said affirmative action wasn't racist and i was disagreeing.

I compete in rock climbing and women and men are separated because men and women have different body types and it wouldn't be fair for them to compete together.

I personally feel women leagues should exist for esports as its really important to foster talent that otherwise might not exist. Same reason why I feel there should be more NA only tournaments.

Doesn't change the fact that affirmative action is racist.
StarStruck
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
25339 Posts
January 04 2013 03:43 GMT
#136
On January 04 2013 12:25 Josh111 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 04 2013 12:09 StarStruck wrote:
On January 04 2013 11:59 Josh111 wrote:
On November 20 2012 04:34 Grumbels wrote:
On November 20 2012 04:11 Noobity wrote:
The only, only problem I have with the discussion is the idea that female-only tournaments aren't sexist, while male only tournaments would be.

That's like saying affirmative action is racist.
On November 20 2012 04:11 Noobity wrote:
I don't like the way society is going about this kind of thing in general. Yes, women have it hard in a lot of ways, and I'm not trying to slight that. But men have it hard in a lot of other ways, and this isn't really brought to light ever. As a man who likes to think he's respectful and neutral regarding sex as possible, the rights that I don't have regarding my children, or a failed marriage, or any number of other issues caused by men in the past is pretty frustrating as it is. We have a huge issue of equality, where women have different rights from men everywhere and that's the bigger issue. Allowing tournaments limited to only one sex, be it male or female, while a great idea in theory, can only be a stepping stone in my opinion.

This is ridiculous, one problem society does not have is males being discriminated against. Just look at this community, where maybe some female players get preferential treatment in some ways, but mostly they have to put up with incredible amounts of hostility from the community for their gender. They can't ever achieve anything without constant discussion about it, Scarlett for instance still has to put up with a multitude of trolls on reddit making disgusting comments every time she's mentioned - although her case is slightly different of course.

On November 20 2012 04:22 Uncreative_Troll wrote:
Females are a minority receiving the community’s strongest criticisms, but also receiving the least opportunities.

I don't agree with that sentence. We don't see male Diamond(?) players getting into a top Korean team or males joining pro teams as a player while having barely touched Sc2 the last months... It's much easier to get noticed (and get opportunities) as a girl in a male dominated scene and I openly admit that I sometimes prefer the stream of a random female player with a webcam over a Progamer.

Right now, females suffer from 2 prejudices:
...
“Female gamers who are not achieving, don’t deserve to be on a team”

That's not actually a prejudice but an oppinion and a question of consistency. I don't think that many disagree with "Gamers who are not achieving, don't deserve to be on a team".
I never noticed a discussion where someone asked for a female to be kicked out of a team cause she had no achievements (after the first announcement).

Djokovic and Sharapova are both big tennis stars, yet Sharapova would lose without winning any games if they faced off. Stephano is the hero of the foreigner community, yet there are many Korean players that would be highly favored against him, even though he makes more money and has more fame. The WCS celebrated local tournament winners, they received a prize, were spotlighted, interviewed etc. Yet a lot of these players won't go far in a 'legit' tournament.

At one point or another you have to realize that when you have divisions in the scene, with separate audiences etc. that then each scene can have its own stars. I honestly think that the best thing for female gaming would be to have more female leagues and more females playing the game.


Affirmative Action is racist.....


Heh and then you would have those people out there saying how they aren't legit because they aren't playing against the toughest competition and history repeats itself. There are women's leagues for practically everything. Heck, even MBC had a women's league for BW and once the ratings came in that was it. No more.

On January 04 2013 05:23 NotRandoMNamE wrote:
I believe KESPA had an all female tournament before in BW, which tossgirl won every time but I'm not sure what happened to it now.


^

This guy alluded to it and everyone knew she was the heavy favorite. Anyway, it was only one time and the ratings were terrible.


Never said anything about not having women's leagues or that women leagues are not legit or anything. Just someone said affirmative action wasn't racist and i was disagreeing.

I compete in rock climbing and women and men are separated because men and women have different body types and it wouldn't be fair for them to compete together.

I personally feel women leagues should exist for esports as its really important to foster talent that otherwise might not exist. Same reason why I feel there should be more NA only tournaments.

Doesn't change the fact that affirmative action is racist.


Ah, I was alluding to the other guys post and just continuing the conversation. It's funny that you mention rock climbing because I was just at a WRCC event. Anyway, I've already stated where I stand on more tournaments. I'm all for people having getting together to have lans but it's going to be awfully difficult trying to get more sponsors on board if you are trying to generate traffic. If it's for fun and games no problem, but if you're trying to make a business out of it? Good luck to them.
Torte de Lini
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Germany38463 Posts
January 04 2013 08:12 GMT
#137
I personally feel women leagues should exist for esports as its really important to foster talent that otherwise might not exist. Same reason why I feel there should be more NA only tournaments.


Exactly how I feel!
https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)
iMAniaC
Profile Joined March 2010
Norway703 Posts
January 04 2013 08:28 GMT
#138
On January 04 2013 12:09 StarStruck wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 04 2013 11:59 Josh111 wrote:
On November 20 2012 04:34 Grumbels wrote:
On November 20 2012 04:11 Noobity wrote:
The only, only problem I have with the discussion is the idea that female-only tournaments aren't sexist, while male only tournaments would be.

That's like saying affirmative action is racist.
On November 20 2012 04:11 Noobity wrote:
I don't like the way society is going about this kind of thing in general. Yes, women have it hard in a lot of ways, and I'm not trying to slight that. But men have it hard in a lot of other ways, and this isn't really brought to light ever. As a man who likes to think he's respectful and neutral regarding sex as possible, the rights that I don't have regarding my children, or a failed marriage, or any number of other issues caused by men in the past is pretty frustrating as it is. We have a huge issue of equality, where women have different rights from men everywhere and that's the bigger issue. Allowing tournaments limited to only one sex, be it male or female, while a great idea in theory, can only be a stepping stone in my opinion.

This is ridiculous, one problem society does not have is males being discriminated against. Just look at this community, where maybe some female players get preferential treatment in some ways, but mostly they have to put up with incredible amounts of hostility from the community for their gender. They can't ever achieve anything without constant discussion about it, Scarlett for instance still has to put up with a multitude of trolls on reddit making disgusting comments every time she's mentioned - although her case is slightly different of course.

On November 20 2012 04:22 Uncreative_Troll wrote:
Females are a minority receiving the community’s strongest criticisms, but also receiving the least opportunities.

I don't agree with that sentence. We don't see male Diamond(?) players getting into a top Korean team or males joining pro teams as a player while having barely touched Sc2 the last months... It's much easier to get noticed (and get opportunities) as a girl in a male dominated scene and I openly admit that I sometimes prefer the stream of a random female player with a webcam over a Progamer.

Right now, females suffer from 2 prejudices:
...
“Female gamers who are not achieving, don’t deserve to be on a team”

That's not actually a prejudice but an oppinion and a question of consistency. I don't think that many disagree with "Gamers who are not achieving, don't deserve to be on a team".
I never noticed a discussion where someone asked for a female to be kicked out of a team cause she had no achievements (after the first announcement).

Djokovic and Sharapova are both big tennis stars, yet Sharapova would lose without winning any games if they faced off. Stephano is the hero of the foreigner community, yet there are many Korean players that would be highly favored against him, even though he makes more money and has more fame. The WCS celebrated local tournament winners, they received a prize, were spotlighted, interviewed etc. Yet a lot of these players won't go far in a 'legit' tournament.

At one point or another you have to realize that when you have divisions in the scene, with separate audiences etc. that then each scene can have its own stars. I honestly think that the best thing for female gaming would be to have more female leagues and more females playing the game.


Affirmative Action is racist.....


Heh and then you would have those people out there saying how they aren't legit because they aren't playing against the toughest competition and history repeats itself. There are women's leagues for practically everything. Heck, even MBC had a women's league for BW and once the ratings came in that was it. No more.

Show nested quote +
On January 04 2013 05:23 NotRandoMNamE wrote:
I believe KESPA had an all female tournament before in BW, which tossgirl won every time but I'm not sure what happened to it now.


^

This guy alluded to it and everyone knew she was the heavy favorite. Anyway, it was only one time and the ratings were terrible.


Actually, it ran for 4 iterations. And there may have been another set of female tournaments that ran for two iterations. I don't know if GameTV and GhemTV have been confused and are really the same tournament or not. (See (Wiki)Tossgirl). However, my point is that it was more than a one time thing. Although, admittedly, not much more than one time...
FabledIntegral
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
United States9232 Posts
January 04 2013 08:37 GMT
#139
On January 04 2013 06:32 Torte de Lini wrote:
Girl only tournaments are demanded to increase female participation.
Doing so has 0 negative side-effects.

Except the side effect of excluding a bunch of males solely for their sex? I don't see any reason why moving towards equality in terms of representation rather than opportunity has any remote sense of value. Why again is it better for the community to bring in 5 new female gamers as opposed to five new male gamers?
Torte de Lini
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Germany38463 Posts
January 04 2013 08:39 GMT
#140
On January 04 2013 17:37 FabledIntegral wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 04 2013 06:32 Torte de Lini wrote:
Girl only tournaments are demanded to increase female participation.
Doing so has 0 negative side-effects.

Except the side effect of excluding a bunch of males solely for their sex? I don't see any reason why moving towards equality in terms of representation rather than opportunity has any remote sense of value. Why again is it better for the community to bring in 5 new female gamers as opposed to five new male gamers?


I can tell you didn't read the article.
https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)
Prev 1 5 6 7 8 9 15 Next All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Korean StarCraft League
03:00
Week 78
CranKy Ducklings94
EnkiAlexander 34
HKG_Chickenman4
Liquipedia
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
WinterStarcraft622
Nina 191
StarCraft: Brood War
BeSt 7809
Snow 731
ggaemo 284
Larva 211
ToSsGirL 113
Dota 2
monkeys_forever681
NeuroSwarm224
LuMiX1
League of Legends
JimRising 697
Super Smash Bros
Mew2King88
Heroes of the Storm
Khaldor59
Other Games
summit1g8841
shahzam706
ViBE257
Organizations
StarCraft: Brood War
Afreeca ASL 2090
Other Games
gamesdonequick803
StarCraft: Brood War
UltimateBattle 137
lovetv 10
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
CasterMuse 0
sctven
[ Show 13 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• practicex 136
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
League of Legends
• Lourlo1620
• Stunt550
Upcoming Events
CranKy Ducklings
4h 17m
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
6h 17m
Mihu vs QiaoGege
Zhanhun vs Dewalt
Fengzi vs TBD
WardiTV European League
10h 17m
ShoWTimE vs Harstem
Shameless vs MaxPax
HeRoMaRinE vs SKillous
ByuN vs TBD
Sparkling Tuna Cup
1d 4h
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
1d 8h
Bonyth vs TBD
WardiTV European League
1d 10h
Wardi Open
2 days
OSC
2 days
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
4 days
The PondCast
5 days
[ Show More ]
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
6 days
RSL Revival
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

BSL 20 Non-Korean Championship
FEL Cracow 2025
Underdog Cup #2

Ongoing

Copa Latinoamericana 4
Jiahua Invitational
BSL 20 Team Wars
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 3
BSL 21 Qualifiers
ASL Season 20: Qualifier #1
HCC Europe
CC Div. A S7
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025

Upcoming

ASL Season 20: Qualifier #2
ASL Season 20
CSLPRO Chat StarLAN 3
BSL Season 21
RSL Revival: Season 2
Maestros of the Game
SEL Season 2 Championship
WardiTV Summer 2025
uThermal 2v2 Main Event
MESA Nomadic Masters Fall
Thunderpick World Champ.
CAC 2025
Roobet Cup 2025
ESL Pro League S22
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.