EPTThe Other Gaming Gender (Armchair Athleticism) - Page 5
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Banchan
United States179 Posts
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Kuni
Austria765 Posts
As long as no one gives a fuck about real, hard earned tournament results, but everything else around it just to get more pageviews, why should I even fool myself into thinking for one second, that results matter. Of course you'd sign a girl, because the chance that Gamergirl85 brings in more viewers than JohnBobby85 is far higher. Note: I have of course nothing against the players I mentioned here, I rather enjoy them, but it's still sad to see hard-workerX, who just didn't win a tournament, but placed 2nd or 3rd or whatever have such a hard time, that the player has to decide constantly whether to fuck it all and do something else, because he cannot afford it, or eat the cheapest food available and live in moms basement to maybe do it in the future. | ||
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ThomasjServo
15244 Posts
On January 04 2013 04:12 Torte de Lini wrote: I think when it comes to public jobs such as presenter and such, is it really that unexpected to see an attractive female presenting? If she does her job right, the employers are satisfied, naturally we'll see more of her for all the reasons, not just her looks. Before Lauren, NASL hired someone else (I don't even remember her name lol), she didn't know StarCraft, wasn't too comfortable and overall, everyone didn't take her seriously. Then they got Lauren and although she is hired primarily for her looks, she showed a willingness to improve as well as respect the profession. As far as Lauren and the NASL are concerned you are right. I have personally never watched the content she is responsible for (There was a dating thing, and she streams as well. There could be more), though I have seen her on stream and she does well enough at what she does. My point was more that if one were a Korean female, it may be considered a prerequisite to be attractive to make it onto a Korean team. Jessica picked up Eve as a Diamond level Terran, albeit on the Korean server, but this was a case of a face meeting what I presume to have been a Korean marketing need. She was played once in a team league. In a more fertile eSports market like Korea, there must be a similar need for players as there is for personalities like Lauren in the sense that both her and Eve aren't at the higest escelon of play. I wouldn't factor out cultural elements affecting the development of female players in Korean Starcraft, but I am less than knowledgeable about standards of beauty and the role they play in Korean society, or eSports. | ||
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LavaLava
United States235 Posts
On January 04 2013 03:55 Alryk wrote: LG-IM Fenix and LG-IM Horror haven't really achieved anything notable, yet those people aren't even mentioned (nobody even cares about who they are anymore really). Prior to disbanding, name the "achievements" TSL Cyrano and TSL Ragnarok had. (Answer: A single Code A Ro48 season for Ragnarok, and GSL Ro64 in 2010 for Cyrano). Not exactly notable, or anything achieved, but nobody complains. Likewise, Startale Pet, Son, and Tiger haven't even been in the GSL. Nobody even really knows who they are, or cares about what their results are. Girls are singled out though, it's happened before. If they don't achieve (anybody who isn't scarlett), people have claimed they are just models/advertising. All of the players you mentioned have posted at least mediocre tournament results. I don't see a lot of complaints about women who join professional teams and place second in a preliminary GSL tournament. There are plenty of complains about diamond league women being promoted as professional SC2 players. I also had to look all of those players up. No one ever talks about them, so how can anyone complain? | ||
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ZombieGrub
United States714 Posts
I appreciate the relation to chess rather than any other sport, not only in the similarities between games and how little your sex matters in terms of ability, but also the infrastructure that you (or rather, Christopher on Reddit) outlined. A women-only tournament, but also allowing women to participate in open tournaments is the best way to do things right now. Unfortunately, a lot of guys get their feathers puffed and say 'well if they get an 'only' tournament, we should too' or 'women-only is sexist', leading women into a defensive position that discourages well-meaning organizers, and hey, probably even sponsors. Now, there is one problem I have that you touched upon in one way or another and I want to expand upon, given that I am female and I see a lot of these type of posts and opinions. As a female who is masters, it does anger me to see gold-diamond (purely casual and entertainment personalities, in other words) girls join teams and get coaching from pros. I'm with a lot of guys on that one, and I'm also not on the wagon of 'encouraging everything every woman does ever' in this scene. It's funny, because it's another one of those double-edged swords. Being a woman in the scene can get you stupid amounts of love for no reason other than a webcam and a pretty voice, and it can also get you a stupid amount of hate because of that love, which is what most people are aware of. The 'stupid amount of love' part can get a lot of girls positions that should have gone to determined masters+ that don't want to put on makeup everyday and set up a lighting studio in their bedroom. I don't see hiring bronze-diamond (in specifically competitive and high-end casting roles - I have no problem hiring them as interviewers, hosts, etc) as helping women, but rather, I see it as just enforcing the view that there aren't that many competitive girls and these ladies are the only thing our side has to offer. I mean, true, it makes me so angry I practice 10x harder to prove everyone wrong, and maybe it's just jealousy, I dunno. But the female-only tournaments are the simple, obvious solution to this problem. More female-only tournaments, more masters showing they can be competitive, less bronze-diamond girls getting picked up because they're the only ones known to anyone, and the next time a woman is picked up by a B team (or even A team), more of the posts will say 'oh yeah she's decent'. In sum, I agree with just about everything you said, and just want to give you a shiny medal or something for your conclusion: "In the case of females, it is a lot easier to distinguish those who participate in tournaments and others who play the game for more entertainment purposes. While entertainers are found throughout the scene, a heavy favoritism should be put towards those who seek to extend the potential ability of the female gender rather than take advantage of it." An eloquent way to sum up a lot of my thoughts on this matter. Also, kudos to you for tackling such an issue and actually focusing on what can be done to help. | ||
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Torte de Lini
Germany38463 Posts
On January 04 2013 04:32 ZombieGrub wrote: While there are a multitude of issues to look at while discussing girls and gaming, for what you've focused on I'm happy with how you presented it. But hey, you're a pretty amazing writer, so I wouldn't expect less than respect and thorough-thinking in any of your articles. I appreciate the relation to chess rather than any other sport, not only in the similarities between games and how little your sex matters in terms of ability, but also the infrastructure that you (or rather, Christopher on Reddit) outlined. A women-only tournament, but also allowing women to participate in open tournaments is the best way to do things right now. Unfortunately, a lot of guys get their feathers puffed and say 'well if they get an 'only' tournament, we should too' or 'women-only is sexist', leading women into a defensive position that discourages well-meaning organizers, and hey, probably even sponsors. Now, there is one problem I have that you touched upon in one way or another and I want to expand upon, given that I am female and I see a lot of these type of posts and opinions. As a female who is masters, it does anger me to see gold-diamond (purely casual and entertainment personalities, in other words) girls join teams and get coaching from pros. I'm with a lot of guys on that one, and I'm also not on the wagon of 'encouraging everything every woman does ever' in this scene. It's funny, because it's another one of those double-edged swords. Being a woman in the scene can get you stupid amounts of love for no reason other than a webcam and a pretty voice, and it can also get you a stupid amount of hate because of that love, which is what most people are aware of. The 'stupid amount of love' part can get a lot of girls positions that should have gone to determined masters+ that don't want to put on makeup everyday and set up a lighting studio in their bedroom. I don't see hiring bronze-diamond (in specifically competitive and high-end casting roles - I have no problem hiring them as interviewers, hosts, etc) as helping women, but rather, I see it as just enforcing the view that there aren't that many competitive girls and these ladies are the only thing our side has to offer. I mean, true, it makes me so angry I practice 10x harder to prove everyone wrong, and maybe it's just jealousy, I dunno. But the female-only tournaments are the simple, obvious solution to this problem. More female-only tournaments, more masters showing they can be competitive, less bronze-diamond girls getting picked up because they're the only ones known to anyone, and the next time a woman is picked up by a B team (or even A team), more of the posts will say 'oh yeah she's decent'. In sum, I agree with just about everything you said, and just want to give you a shiny medal or something for your conclusion: "In the case of females, it is a lot easier to distinguish those who participate in tournaments and others who play the game for more entertainment purposes. While entertainers are found throughout the scene, a heavy favoritism should be put towards those who seek to extend the potential ability of the female gender rather than take advantage of it." An eloquent way to sum up a lot of my thoughts on this matter. Also, kudos to you for tackling such an issue and actually focusing on what can be done to help. Huge thanks! I really appreciate this (: In my original unedited piece, I had warned people of the issues of women potentially taking advantage of their gender. I believed I removed it under the idea that there was no point of further separating females from one another as either entertainer or an aspiring competitor. Though I left some of it summarized as you pointed it out (: I think Rachel also suffered from this problem as well when she was making her arguments. It's very hard to prove you're legitimately good at your job when there are a lot of other females who do similar, but are side-tracked emphasizing more of their sexuality or just their sex and diminish the general audience's perception. I can imagine the thought being: "I'm glad females are getting places that I feel they deserve, but this one in particular does not necessarily help our cause". It's a tough sociological situation because women who don't exactly care about feminism or any sort of promotional movement, can still ultimately hurt their gender and everyone' s perception of it, while those trying to help, have to somehow prove above those who don't care, while also not blasting them to further create conflict (and diminish your numbers). Very, very tough. | ||
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Torte de Lini
Germany38463 Posts
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ThomasjServo
15244 Posts
Zombiegrub * Drops the mic * In all seriousness excellent points, cannot stress enough the importance of meritocracy across the board but especially as far as a female league is concerned. | ||
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StarVe
Germany13591 Posts
On January 04 2013 03:55 Alryk wrote: LG-IM Fenix and LG-IM Horror haven't really achieved anything notable, yet those people aren't even mentioned (nobody even cares about who they are anymore really). Prior to disbanding, name the "achievements" TSL Cyrano and TSL Ragnarok had. (Answer: A single Code A Ro48 season for Ragnarok, and GSL Ro64 in 2010 for Cyrano). Not exactly notable, or anything achieved, but nobody complains. Likewise, Startale Pet, Son, and Tiger haven't even been in the GSL. Nobody even really knows who they are, or cares about what their results are. Girls are singled out though, it's happened before. If they don't achieve (anybody who isn't scarlett), people have claimed they are just models/advertising. Fenix qualified for WCS finals and didn't even get last in his group (got 17th-24th place). Horror beat MarineKing among others in WCS qualifiers and got a spot in WCS Korea where he took a game of Rain. Ragnarok was used in team leagues. Pet did great in KSL for ZeNEX. Etcetera, etcetera. It's somewhat of a difference whether you can threaten the best Korean players out there or whether you are struggling to get into master league on NA. Your examples are ridiculous. They're effective practice partners for any top player. | ||
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Torte de Lini
Germany38463 Posts
On January 04 2013 04:10 Grend wrote: I thought the other gaming gender would be transgender or something (no joke) ^^ I revised all titles to be more clear and less ambiguously creative. Unfortunately, I can't change thread titles. | ||
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ThomasjServo
15244 Posts
On January 04 2013 04:41 Torte de Lini wrote: Now, if only someone could put this on Reddit ^^ Last time I tried, I got downvoted to oblivion hoho You ever post to /r/gaming as well Torte? Seems like there is a fair bit of overlap with your content. | ||
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Torte de Lini
Germany38463 Posts
On January 04 2013 04:58 ThomasjServo wrote: You ever post to /r/gaming as well Torte? Seems like there is a fair bit of overlap with your content. Nope, but I would really appreciate it if someone did on either StarCraft or r/Gaming. | ||
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R3DT1D3
285 Posts
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StarVe
Germany13591 Posts
On January 04 2013 05:04 R3DT1D3 wrote: Even incredibly popular sports (like the NBA) can't support women only leagues. While it would be nice for more females to be involved in gaming, I just don't think it's feasible in any sort of physical competition that is already dominated by men. That's just wrong. Here in Germany we have a pretty successful women's football league. Most other European countries have one as well, there's a European Cup and all, too. Same goes for handball, even though it's less popular. | ||
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ThomasjServo
15244 Posts
On January 04 2013 05:01 Torte de Lini wrote: Nope, but I would really appreciate it if someone did on either StarCraft or r/Gaming. I got you on /r/gaming, I unsubscribed from /r/starcraft a long time ago. | ||
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Torte de Lini
Germany38463 Posts
On January 04 2013 05:08 ThomasjServo wrote: I got you on /r/gaming, I unsubscribed from /r/starcraft a long time ago. I still look out at /r/StarCraft sometimes, but they can be a bit too blunt for me. | ||
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dUTtrOACh
Canada2339 Posts
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playa
United States1284 Posts
Is Flo a randomly selected trophy girl to be on pro teams or is she the best girl gamer? I have no idea. I would be curious about the scene, though, and I would like to know who the best girl gamers actually are. It would be nice to know that there's a correlation between ranking within the girl scene and being a pro gamer. Sounds a lot more fair and gives them all an opportunity to show their skills. Controversial... but what ever happened to just being gay? A lot of gay people are effeminate. If Stephano decides hey I want to get some extra cash and cash in on this lax pseudo definition of male/female, he could. What would you do to stop him? But, at the end of the day, whether he feels like a bear/lion/or w/e he dreams of being, he's a human and he has a penis. Keep him out of the girls tournament. It's common sense. It wouldn't be fair to them. If you disagree and you're straight, maybe ask a person out with a penis. You can only go so far before you have to admit... I should treat them as a guy, at least in certain things. As long as there is an audience for a league and the league isn't excluding people based on feeling superior to others, then it seems like a fine thing to do to me. If the league isn't offending anyone, it can't be hurting anyone. | ||
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ThomasjServo
15244 Posts
On January 04 2013 05:09 Torte de Lini wrote: I still look out at /r/StarCraft sometimes, but they can be a bit too blunt for me. I prefer my hyperbole volume to be at a dull roar, rather than 11 as I feel Starcraft is. So many links to TL anyway, I cut out the middle man. | ||
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Torte de Lini
Germany38463 Posts
On January 04 2013 05:13 ThomasjServo wrote: I prefer my hyperbole volume to be at a dull roar, rather than 11 as I feel Starcraft is. So many links to TL anyway, I cut out the middle man. Not that it matters for me, but you get a lot more hits on Reddit towards your website than you do on TL. | ||
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