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On November 20 2012 05:44 Caihead wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2012 05:37 Noobity wrote:On November 20 2012 04:51 tomatriedes wrote:
I don't know why so many angry nerds get so heated up over the idea of a woman's league. To me it's just like New Zealander's having a NZ league or Fijians having a Fijian league- it;s not about excluding men or being sexist it's about giving a certain scene a chance to grow and develop. I would like to watch something like that if it had good production values. I like it when females beat males, I think it proves a lot and I always hope that the next female break-out star sticks with the scene and gets more females into the sport. I love watching Scarlett play, I think Flo has a great chance to do well if she keeps it up, I'm disappointed that I don't see Aphrodite play in more high-end tournaments. But on what terms? On a previously established rule set that's made for males? Are you taking this for granted? It might not be immediately obvious to see a noticeable difference in a game of SC2 if you need to craft separate metrics for measuring achievement across genders. But it is obvious given every other field of competition that you do need separate metrics for competition unless you can render it fair enough to a degree between the demographics. I'm not arguing for or against having different metrics in SC2 in particular because there isn't any research to support either argument, hell maybe women have the potential to be better at SC2 because of their specific skill sets like multitasking or mental arithmetic etc. If the sport was fair then it shouldn't be the fact that a woman beats a male that proves alot, it should be the fact that player X who is an underdog beats player Y regardless of gender.
I'm not entirely sure what you mean by rule sets being made for males. The rule sets are made for the game, no? I like it because it helps to show that they can do this stuff too, that they can work past the stereotypes and drama and beat the odds.
Same reason I like it when Foreigners beat Koreans. I don't understand what you're getting at I guess.
Anyone who doesn't see that there's some hard shit for females to go through before they get their chance isn't looking hard enough. Similarly, when foreigners do well in the GSL, they're going through a ton of difficult shit to get and stay there. It's simply what I like to see. All about the underdogs.
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Caihead Canada. November 20 2012 06:12. Posts 3600
Did you read the article?
I did. He notes 2 prejudices:
“Females gamers are being signed for being a female rather than any real remarkable achievements”
“Female gamers who are not achieving, don’t deserve to be on a team”
I quote myself here:
Show nested quote +Right now, females suffer from 2 prejudices:
...
“Female gamers who are not achieving, don’t deserve to be on a team”
That's not actually a prejudice but an oppinion and a question of consistency. I don't think that many disagree with "Gamers who are not achieving, don't deserve to be on a team". I never noticed a discussion where someone asked for a female to be kicked out of a team cause she had no achievements (after the first announcement).
“Females gamers are being signed for being a female rather than any real remarkable achievements”
No one wants that a new player has won a MLG or Dreamhack before he joins a team but they are satiesfied when that player is actually a good player and is GM/High Masters. I don't exspect any additional bad Feedback than normally (there are always trolls/hater) when a GM/High Master girl joins a team.
The required skill for females isn't any higher as for males. Those "prejudices" doesn't make it harder for them to become a Progamer in any way.
I also doubt that female Progamer Lack of venues to expose themselves due to prejudice . Girls seem to get more attention than males with equal skills, just look at stream views. Those "prejudices" don't seem to influence it.
I don't think that those 2 points are the reason why there aren't more female-only tournaments/player. They are advantaged in that way, that more people watch those kind of tournaments than "male" tournaments with the same league distribution. Why don't we actually see more female tournamets? Is it really more than the lack of (good) player?
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On November 20 2012 03:03 Torte de Lini wrote:Right now, females suffer from 2 prejudices: - “Females gamers are being signed for being a female rather than any real remarkable achievements”
- “Female gamers who are not achieving, don’t deserve to be on a team”
(It’s a vicious circle: Female gets on a team without any achievements, female remains on the team but never sent to any events or actively used in team leagues. Never exposed, she never achieves anything or is a part of any team achievements).promote themselves through their gender. .
Just pointing out, you missed a few words here.
Haven't had time to read through it yet, but it looks interesting.
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I think that sc2 just doesn't generate enough viewership/money to create sustainable scene for any minority. I have nothing against female gamers but I don't belive you could find more than few hundred/thousand people willing to follow such league, let alone support it financially.
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Really interesting read. I think the most salient point for me was the comparison between female-only tournaments importance of regional championships.
One thing I might have liked to see addressed more is why the situation is such that females are drastically outnumbered by males in the e-sports scene. Unlike regional championships, it seems as though if the numbers were roughly equal, there wouldn't be such a discrepancy in visible achievements, and there might not even be a need to differentiate. Of course we can put this discrepancy down to the culture of gaming being one that appeals more to/is more accessible to men than women, but I'd be curious to know how you think female-only tournaments might influence this dynamic.
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Girls don't like to compete, girls don't like war games, girls don't like to be isolated in male communities. I'm pretty certain that way more female players in WoW do high level raiding than do high level arena, for instance. One is cooperative, the other is classic competitive gladiator combat.
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Torte please have my babies
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On November 20 2012 07:23 Grumbels wrote:
Girls don't like to compete, girls don't like war games, girls don't like to be isolated in male communities. I'm pretty certain that way more female players in WoW do high level raiding than do high level arena, for instance. One is cooperative, the other is classic competitive gladiator combat.
This is fucking disgusting. Do you seriously believe this?
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On November 20 2012 07:36 Fission wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2012 07:23 Grumbels wrote:
Girls don't like to compete, girls don't like war games, girls don't like to be isolated in male communities. I'm pretty certain that way more female players in WoW do high level raiding than do high level arena, for instance. One is cooperative, the other is classic competitive gladiator combat. This is fucking disgusting. Do you seriously believe this?
Sure, why not?
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I'm pretty sure that the people don't want to watch girls play SC2 or video games because female gamers are never the best. I don't want to watch people who aren't top-tier. Isn't that why people watch SC2/GSL? Also, female-only leagues seem sort of silly to me since there are such few female pro gamers.
Anyone who wants to watch girls because they are girls is an idiot. Sry2say.
*Edited to correct a couple things.
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Where does Scarlett fit in all of this? I mean is she allowed to compete in tournaments like Gabriella Issaacs or does she have an unfair advantage in these tournaments? I mean the olympics wouldn't allow transgenders (M2F) to compete in the womens olympics because they would have such a distinctive advantage. Just curious to where transgender competitors stand in these sort of tournaments.
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On November 20 2012 08:03 KentHenry wrote:
Where does Scarlett fit in all of this? I mean is she allowed to compete in tournaments like Gabriella Issaacs or does she have an unfair advantage in these tournaments? I mean the olympics wouldn't allow transgenders (M2F) to compete in the womens olympics because they would have such a distinctive advantage. Just curious to where transgender competitors stand in these sort of tournaments.
I imagine that the reason there are more good transgender female players (Puck, Scarlett) than regular female players is because they have been raised as male and so have more male-gendered cultural imprinting such as enjoying competition. There is no actual evidence that they would have an innate advantage in games due to some biological factor.
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On November 20 2012 07:36 Fission wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2012 07:23 Grumbels wrote:
Girls don't like to compete, girls don't like war games, girls don't like to be isolated in male communities. I'm pretty certain that way more female players in WoW do high level raiding than do high level arena, for instance. One is cooperative, the other is classic competitive gladiator combat. This is fucking disgusting. Do you seriously believe this?
What he says seems to hold true though. I have many female friends who play League of Legends or WoW with me. But as soon as they see how much effort you need to put into starcraft, they lose interest. Girls around here prefer Mario, Sims, League. Games that are super easy to access. Maybe it's different in other parts of the world, but where I live, and friends I talk to online live, that is the case.
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On November 20 2012 08:16 RagequitBM wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2012 07:36 Fission wrote:On November 20 2012 07:23 Grumbels wrote:
Girls don't like to compete, girls don't like war games, girls don't like to be isolated in male communities. I'm pretty certain that way more female players in WoW do high level raiding than do high level arena, for instance. One is cooperative, the other is classic competitive gladiator combat. This is fucking disgusting. Do you seriously believe this? What he says seems to hold true though. I have many female friends who play League of Legends or WoW with me. But as soon as they see how much effort you need to put into starcraft, they lose interest. Girls around here prefer Mario, Sims, League. Games that are super easy to access. Maybe it's different in other parts of the world, but where I live, and friends I talk to online live, that is the case.
Yeah, I didn't mean it like: "girls are x, because", just that generally speaking that's how our culture works. Casual vs hardcore, cooperative games vs competitive games, fantasy games vs violent games, role playing games vs strategy games, social games vs competitive games. And so on, in each of those different categories you'd have a lot more girls interested in one vs the other.
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Right now, females suffer from 2 prejudices:
“Females gamers are being signed for being a female rather than any real remarkable achievements”
“Female gamers who are not achieving, don’t deserve to be on a team”
Neither of these are prejudices. Signing a girl to your team for no other reason than that she's a girl who isn't absolutely terrible is something that invites criticism, which is actually more often directed at the organization rather than whoever the player in question is. It reeks of publicity stunt rather than a sincere attempt to improve the team. As for point number two, the only reason that you see female gamers catch (seemingly) more heat for accomplishing nothing is because they're more high profile due to their rarity, and due to the fact that their teams make threads announcing that they've acquired them. The huge pool of male players out there who accomplish nothing don't catch the same kind of heat because they're just random dudes on SC2 teams. Nobody made a thread to get the word out or otherwise attempted to promote them. How can you get criticized if hardly anyone even knows who you are?
Females should be praised for their own separate achievements; different standards and expectations for different types of people. Aren’t we then setting a lower standard for females over males? No, that is a comparison; we are actually just setting a system or scale for female E-sports.
Actually, the answer is yes. There's nothing wrong with having female-only tournaments, but why would they deserve praise when we know the competition is a farce compared to the other tournaments where the actual best players are playing? Some female player could win ten straight of these hypothetical tournaments, but if she never competed outside them or accomplished anything outside of them, you'd always have to attach "for a girl" to whatever kind of praise you gave her. What is that if not setting a lower standard?
If there's a conversation to be had here, it's to question why there's comparatively so little female interest in the game, and whether or not we should attempt to try to raise that interest, and by what means we would do so. Claiming that there's some kind of systematic bias preventing females from succeeding doesn't ring true because everyone has access to the same ladder and the same battle.net. With a bit of talent enough dedication, anyone can become a good enough player to begin competing in minor tournaments and trying to catch the eye of a pro team. The impression I get from your post is that rather than simply expect them to put in the work necessary to become top players, we should coddle them and overvalue anything they manage to accomplish in the interest of promoting females in esports. That's something I'm not interested in getting behind.
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The prejudices listed in that article aren't prejudice at all. The beginning of your article is just wrong. Eve wasn't on SlayerS due to her skills. If she was a male she would have been incredibly lucky to be a b-teamer, much less sitting on the bench for GSTL and especially getting to play.
The fact that females are getting picked up because they are female is pretty much undeniable (Scarlett being the exception). I agree with you 100% that this isn't a bad thing however. Women are a completely untapped market and there are obvious economic benefits to both female tournaments and teams picking up female players over a more qualified male. To start off the article however by saying that women don't get a shot because of prejudice is wrong and offputting to the existing fanbase who just wants to see the highest quality games.
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On November 20 2012 08:03 KentHenry wrote:
Where does Scarlett fit in all of this? I mean is she allowed to compete in tournaments like Gabriella Issaacs or does she have an unfair advantage in these tournaments? I mean the olympics wouldn't allow transgenders (M2F) to compete in the womens olympics because they would have such a distinctive advantage. Just curious to where transgender competitors stand in these sort of tournaments.
Because clearly Starcraft requires a muscular male physique and unfairly advantages anyone with a large amount of testosterone, right? And IIRC the Olympics would allow a trans woman to compete in women's events if they had been taking oestrogen long enough for said muscular male physique to have gone away.
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Let's be honest, how many people actually care about any female league of any sport? There are many female sports with very talented players that dedicate their lives to the sports they love despite having a small fraction of the fanbase of the male counterpart even though they put in the same effort. We already know that there's not really any females (sex not gender, ie. transgenders don't count) that can compete against sc2 pro's based on skill, so how many female player put in similar training hours at least?
Women shouldn't be rewarded just for being women but they shouldn't be hindered either. If a female player is dedicating their life to the sport by practicing as much as any other pro does and has similar skill to some other team members then they deserve the opportunity as much as anyone else, but if they're just being recruited to be a pair of breasts or a pretty face that lacks any shred of talent or devotion then they are merely being objectivised and that is sexist.
The comparison of regionals not being racist vs female leagues not being sexist is quite asinine. Any race can live in any region so even if a region is dominated by a particular race, anyone can still move there and compete if they desire to. I'm no expert on the topic but I've never heard of any female sport league allowing transgenders to compete and they have varying rules on what constitutes a female when it comes to rare genetics (such as androgen insensitivity syndrome which is 50 times higher in Olympians than the normal population, or hermaphrodites). You can choose where to live but you can't choose your sex for the purpose of competition. Female leagues are sexist by definition, they exclude males, but it's generally seen as an okay form of sexism because of the huge genetic differences between sexes. Are there any genetic differences that really hinder females playing esports that warrants separate leagues?
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On November 20 2012 09:22 Twilight Sparkle wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2012 08:03 KentHenry wrote:
Where does Scarlett fit in all of this? I mean is she allowed to compete in tournaments like Gabriella Issaacs or does she have an unfair advantage in these tournaments? I mean the olympics wouldn't allow transgenders (M2F) to compete in the womens olympics because they would have such a distinctive advantage. Just curious to where transgender competitors stand in these sort of tournaments. Because clearly Starcraft requires a muscular male physique and unfairly advantages anyone with a large amount of testosterone, right? And IIRC the Olympics would allow a trans woman to compete in women's events if they had been taking oestrogen long enough for said muscular male physique to have gone away.
I don't think there's a solid answer to that but this article highlights the evolution of Olympic gender testing: http://articles.latimes.com/2012/jul/30/science/la-sci-olympics-gender-20120730
In the past they used metrics such as visual inspections or chromosome testing but the London games used testosterone levels although it is unclear whether that was the only metric used or what the future metrics will be.
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EPT
