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On November 20 2012 05:20 dddoushio wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2012 03:03 Torte de Lini wrote:
[*] “Female gamers who are not achieving, don’t deserve to be on a team”
I don't understand how this is prejudice
Lack of venues to expose themselves due to prejudice, it's self perpetuating. If I don't host any tournaments for basketball in Asian countries, then it becomes extremely difficult for Asians to show case their skill sets or develop as professionals. Same story in video games. Conversely if there aren't any table tennis or badminton leagues in the west it's also difficult to develop as a professional in that field there. Even though both demographics might do perfectly well competitively if there wasn't societal prejudice of one over the other. If there aren't enough female competitions, or that people don't pay enough attention / give credibility to them due to prejudice, then female gamers can't achieve anything.
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On November 20 2012 05:23 Caihead wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2012 05:20 dddoushio wrote:On November 20 2012 03:03 Torte de Lini wrote:
[*] “Female gamers who are not achieving, don’t deserve to be on a team”
I don't understand how this is prejudice Lack of venues to expose themselves due to prejudice, it's self perpetuating. If I don't host any tournaments for basketball in Asian countries, then it becomes extremely difficult for Asians to show case their skill sets or develop as professionals. Same story in video games. Conversely if there aren't any table tennis or badminton leagues in the west it's also difficult to develop as a professional in that field there. Even though both demographics might do perfectly well competitively if there wasn't societal prejudice of one over the other. If there aren't enough female competitions, or that people don't pay enough attention / give credibility to them due to prejudice, then female gamers can't achieve anything.
Still, having diamond players hired by your team just because they're female won't help the scene grow at all
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On November 20 2012 05:29 dddoushio wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2012 05:23 Caihead wrote:On November 20 2012 05:20 dddoushio wrote:On November 20 2012 03:03 Torte de Lini wrote:
[*] “Female gamers who are not achieving, don’t deserve to be on a team”
I don't understand how this is prejudice Lack of venues to expose themselves due to prejudice, it's self perpetuating. If I don't host any tournaments for basketball in Asian countries, then it becomes extremely difficult for Asians to show case their skill sets or develop as professionals. Same story in video games. Conversely if there aren't any table tennis or badminton leagues in the west it's also difficult to develop as a professional in that field there. Even though both demographics might do perfectly well competitively if there wasn't societal prejudice of one over the other. If there aren't enough female competitions, or that people don't pay enough attention / give credibility to them due to prejudice, then female gamers can't achieve anything. Still, having diamond players hired by your team just because they're female won't help the scene grow at all
Black people before being hired / getting exposure for basketball / baseball could only offer up very petty achievements or nothing at all too, to actually grow a demographic in sports you need serious commitment and often risky self sacrificing moves like some particular coaches / team managers in the 20th century did for black people in those sports. It's also risky because it's unclear -or people don't pay attention to it at all- if female gamers have a consistent marketing demographic that isn't exploitative.
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On November 20 2012 04:51 tomatriedes wrote:
I don't know why so many angry nerds get so heated up over the idea of a woman's league. To me it's just like New Zealander's having a NZ league or Fijians having a Fijian league- it;s not about excluding men or being sexist it's about giving a certain scene a chance to grow and develop. I would like to watch something like that if it had good production values.
I think I was the first person to really speak up against an idea in the OP, so I'd like to clarify.
I don't mind that there are all-women leagues or tournaments or whatever. In the case of eSports I would agree that these are worth-while undertakings. I'd love to see better-produced Zowie Divina cups, and more of them highlighting the great female players in the scene. I'd love to see more leagues keep their continental qualifiers regulated to those who reside in that continent. I'd love to see more CSL, and semi-pro leagues with MLG's backing so they could really give us a great show.
I do, however, mind the double-standards, and the idea that these aren't racist or sexist ideas. The words have such an evil connotation to them because of what they've meant in the past, but they don't need to. To exclude anyone for any reason is discrimination, and while it may be discrimination for a good cause, it's simply that.
I like it when females beat males, I think it proves a lot and I always hope that the next female break-out star sticks with the scene and gets more females into the sport. I love watching Scarlett play, I think Flo has a great chance to do well if she keeps it up, I'm disappointed that I don't see Aphrodite play in more high-end tournaments.
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On November 20 2012 05:37 Noobity wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2012 04:51 tomatriedes wrote:
I don't know why so many angry nerds get so heated up over the idea of a woman's league. To me it's just like New Zealander's having a NZ league or Fijians having a Fijian league- it;s not about excluding men or being sexist it's about giving a certain scene a chance to grow and develop. I would like to watch something like that if it had good production values. I like it when females beat males, I think it proves a lot and I always hope that the next female break-out star sticks with the scene and gets more females into the sport. I love watching Scarlett play, I think Flo has a great chance to do well if she keeps it up, I'm disappointed that I don't see Aphrodite play in more high-end tournaments.
But on what terms? On a previously established rule set that's made for males? Are you taking this for granted? It might not be immediately obvious to see a noticeable difference in a game of SC2 if you need to craft separate metrics for measuring achievement across genders. But it is obvious given every other field of competition that you do need separate metrics for competition unless you can render it fair enough to a degree between the demographics. I'm not arguing for or against having different metrics in SC2 in particular because there isn't any research to support either argument, hell maybe women have the potential to be better at SC2 because of their specific skill sets like multitasking or mental arithmetic etc.
If the sport was fair then it shouldn't be the fact that a woman beats a male that proves alot, it should be the fact that player X who is an underdog beats player Y regardless of gender.
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On November 20 2012 05:23 Caihead wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2012 05:20 dddoushio wrote:On November 20 2012 03:03 Torte de Lini wrote:
[*] “Female gamers who are not achieving, don’t deserve to be on a team”
I don't understand how this is prejudice Lack of venues to expose themselves due to prejudice, it's self perpetuating. If I don't host any tournaments for basketball in Asian countries, then it becomes extremely difficult for Asians to show case their skill sets or develop as professionals. Same story in video games. Conversely if there aren't any table tennis or badminton leagues in the west it's also difficult to develop as a professional in that field there. Even though both demographics might do perfectly well competitively if there wasn't societal prejudice of one over the other. If there aren't enough female competitions, or that people don't pay enough attention / give credibility to them due to prejudice, then female gamers can't achieve anything.
I don't understand this. Males and females don't live in different countrys. There is nothing stopping a woman from entering a tournament. Frankly I don't understand what specific disadvantages females have in the esports scene.
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Caihead Canada. November 20 2012 05:23. Posts 3599
Lack of venues to expose themselves due to prejudice, it's self perpetuating.
...
[don't] give credibility to them due to prejudice
...
About which prejudices do you talk about?
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On November 20 2012 06:06 Uncreative_Troll wrote:Show nested quote +Caihead Canada. November 20 2012 05:23. Posts 3599
Lack of venues to expose themselves due to prejudice, it's self perpetuating.
...
[don't] give credibility to them due to prejudice
...
About which prejudices do you talk about?
Did you read the article?
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Women are disadvantaged due to continual harassment from males in the community as well as socially constructed gender expectations which often prevent them from having equal exposure to gaming, and which places unfair burdens on them.
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On November 20 2012 06:02 Shorty90 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2012 05:23 Caihead wrote:On November 20 2012 05:20 dddoushio wrote:On November 20 2012 03:03 Torte de Lini wrote:
[*] “Female gamers who are not achieving, don’t deserve to be on a team”
I don't understand how this is prejudice Lack of venues to expose themselves due to prejudice, it's self perpetuating. If I don't host any tournaments for basketball in Asian countries, then it becomes extremely difficult for Asians to show case their skill sets or develop as professionals. Same story in video games. Conversely if there aren't any table tennis or badminton leagues in the west it's also difficult to develop as a professional in that field there. Even though both demographics might do perfectly well competitively if there wasn't societal prejudice of one over the other. If there aren't enough female competitions, or that people don't pay enough attention / give credibility to them due to prejudice, then female gamers can't achieve anything. I don't understand this. Males and females don't live in different countrys. There is nothing stopping a woman from entering a tournament. Frankly I don't understand what specific disadvantages females have in the esports scene.
Sigh. If there isn't any support for you to enter a tournament, if it isn't seen as a legitimate thing for a female to pursuit when compared to a male, if there isn't societal support for a female gamer in the same way as a male, then no it isn't fair. Being a professional anything with out financial and societal support is extremely difficult. If no one takes your achievements seriously (I can't even name female gamers off the top of my head myself because their leagues recieve next to no exposure) then you can't enter professional teams and gain the training environment you need. Or you could read the article.
In Asia in particular, there is already prejudice in some respects towards gamers in general, but also that competitive gaming is seen as a male hobby dominated by male figure heads not only in the competitive scene but also in the professional scene, be it in games development, journalism, financing, media exposure, what ever category. Try finding an Asian parent who would support their female children going into gaming.
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There are so many reasons why female only leagues are a bad idea.
There are no reasons why females cannot be as good at Starcraft as men. They should not have it easy or have more opportunities. Whats the difference between say a master league male gamer and a master league female gamer. Nothing except gender. Incontrol gets lots of shit from trolls about being a big guy, do we therefore make tournaments for Starcraft players with a high body mass because they could potentially get less opportunities ?
Female players have as much chance / potential as men. Female only tournaments are sexist straight up. Im sure if a female gamer put the time, dedication and determination into the game that the top male stars do, they would be just as successful.
Oh wait they are female right ? Lets panda to them instead.
As a man, I respect talent, regardless of gender.
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On November 20 2012 06:15 Ssoulle wrote:
Lets panda to them instead.
Let's all panda instead of thinking then I guess. I like Pandas.
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My only objection with the article is that you say that the IeSF female "winners" deserve more attention. Only two girls showed up, they didn't really "win" anything. If you read the interviews, it wasn't even a close match, either. Focusing on Iron Lady (which, iirc, was Scarlett/Aphrodite for 1st/2nd) might have made a better point, since it got less attention and was a better event (though online).
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On November 20 2012 06:13 Fission wrote:
Women are disadvantaged due to continual harassment from males on the community as well as socially constructed gender expectations which often prevent them from having equal exposure to gaming, and which places unfair burdens on them.
Agreeing with this. A lot of women are sadly too bound by the societal gender constructs and will not engage in activities, which could harm them in the eyes of their friends, family, significant others. That's how a lot of them were raised and subconsciously, often without realizing it, they will simply not walk the path, which is socially not seen as "standard" or worse in some countries, as fun for lazy, dirty, stupid people.
Also, there's a skill gap between men and women, of course, for exactly this reason, women being hesitant in investing a lot of their lives into their passions, if they don't happen to be mainstream for their gender. It's getting better tho, women start to play, talents start to rise - just compare it to a year back, how many Master lvl women were there? You could count them probably on fingers of your one hand. There are more women reaching that level, and before you oppose me, that Master level is still not a pro level, yes, I agree - but the gaps are getting smaller each passing year. Give it another year and it won't be that uncommon to see strong women players emerging out of nowhere. There is Flo, who works really hard, Scarlett, who came completelly out of nowhere. So, I have no doubt the situation will get better, even without people engaging in it directly, it'll just take time, as guys have been playing games & RTS for much longer than the general woman populace. So, that gap has to be apparent somewhere.
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The game doesn't discriminate. So just keep playing and if you're good, you'll win.
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I don't see why people say that women don't get a chance. The only time that women don't get a fair chance do to exposure is when a tournament is purely invitational. But when a tournament is invitational, it also excludes other male players who do not have much exposure also. Women are given a fair chance to qualify to most big tournaments and even smaller ones. The only reason why there are not many females in the scene is because it is not socially normal for women to play video games so many don't for that reason.
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On November 20 2012 06:14 Caihead wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2012 06:02 Shorty90 wrote:On November 20 2012 05:23 Caihead wrote:On November 20 2012 05:20 dddoushio wrote:On November 20 2012 03:03 Torte de Lini wrote:
[*] “Female gamers who are not achieving, don’t deserve to be on a team”
I don't understand how this is prejudice Lack of venues to expose themselves due to prejudice, it's self perpetuating. If I don't host any tournaments for basketball in Asian countries, then it becomes extremely difficult for Asians to show case their skill sets or develop as professionals. Same story in video games. Conversely if there aren't any table tennis or badminton leagues in the west it's also difficult to develop as a professional in that field there. Even though both demographics might do perfectly well competitively if there wasn't societal prejudice of one over the other. If there aren't enough female competitions, or that people don't pay enough attention / give credibility to them due to prejudice, then female gamers can't achieve anything. I don't understand this. Males and females don't live in different countrys. There is nothing stopping a woman from entering a tournament. Frankly I don't understand what specific disadvantages females have in the esports scene. Sigh. If there isn't any support for you to enter a tournament, if it isn't seen as a legitimate thing for a female to pursuit when compared to a male, if there isn't societal support for a female gamer in the same way as a male, then no it isn't fair. Being a professional anything with out financial and societal support is extremely difficult. If no one takes your achievements seriously (I can't even name female gamers off the top of my head myself because their leagues recieve next to no exposure) then you can't enter professional teams and gain the training environment you need. Or you could read the article. In Asia in particular, there is already prejudice in some respects towards gamers in general, but also that competitive gaming is seen as a male hobby dominated by male figure heads not only in the competitive scene but also in the professional scene, be it in games development, journalism, financing, media exposure, what ever category. Try finding an Asian parent who would support their female children going into gaming.
I don't think being a professional gamer is looked down upon by society only if you are female. Most male professional gamers have to fight for respect, too. In fact I believe that an achieving female gamer would get a lot more esteem from the inside of esports than if she where male.
Also the typical male progamer gets picked up by teams after he gets achievements in tournaments. There is nothing stopping a female from doing the same.
Edit: I think the big difference in males to females in esports can be attributed to females on average just not being very interested in it.
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They don't like esports videogames. It's not about not having female gamers but I think the pool of skilled female gamer is really small compared to its male counterpart. The solution is : do not buy SIMS 13 to your daughter & learn her to truely geek. Their games are more about simulating social interactions than pure skill.
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i know and seen alot of female players at very high level's, there isnt much or any predujice in the gaming comunity then there is in day to day life, the reasons i think we dont see many pro female players is because, a. the pro gamer girls/ladies don't want to part take in the gaming past beging top of causals (alot of my female freinds are like this, cba basically). b. care too much about what other people say, (not an issue really but more personal that effects males too). c. out numberd naturally by males.
but saying there must be female only ladders etc is sexist, i would though agree it may open the more passve good players to have ago, in the precursor they can compete vs none teenager males, who don't understand how to communcate in a proper fashion (common), this wont stop males pretending to be females untill lan's are arranged.
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EPT
