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The Other Gaming Gender (Armchair Athleticism) - Page 4

Forum Index > SC2 General
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Empirimancer
Profile Joined July 2011
Canada1024 Posts
January 03 2013 15:53 GMT
#61
The OP is laughable; that most people posting in this thread don't realize this is just depressing.



User was temp banned for this post.
jakethesnake
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
Canada4948 Posts
January 03 2013 16:02 GMT
#62
On January 04 2013 00:53 Empirimancer wrote:
The OP is laughable; that most people posting in this thread don't realize this is just depressing.



Thanks for the insightful comment :/

If you disagree, the least you could do is say why instead of just a generic bitch about the article.
Community Newsjjakji || jjakji || jjakji || jjakji || jjakji || jjakji || jjakji nshoseo.jpg
EnumaAvalon
Profile Blog Joined February 2012
Philippines3613 Posts
January 03 2013 16:11 GMT
#63
Thank you! As a community we should have more of these threads not just focusing on the game itself.
(._.) ( l: ) ( .-. ) ( :l ) (._.) They see me rolling. They hating.
Torte de Lini
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Germany38463 Posts
January 03 2013 17:40 GMT
#64
On January 04 2013 01:11 EnumaAvalon wrote:
Thank you! As a community we should have more of these threads not just focusing on the game itself.


I think we get a lot of both.
but thank you.
https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)
StarStruck
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
25339 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-01-03 18:03:45
January 03 2013 17:45 GMT
#65
On November 20 2012 04:41 Mothra wrote:
I'm sitting in Sociology 101 all over again.


You know what Torte's been studying in Uni right? O;

Uncreative have you actually seen their stream numbers? It's nothing to get enthusiastic about, but this goes for many other tournaments at the same time regardless of gender.

Grumbels it's funny that you mention war games because I just had my cousin visit over the new year and she was talking about skeet shooting as well as buying an air soft gun to shoot at fixed targets but when it came to shooting a small animal or when I mentioned the idea of her playing war games in fields with people she got skittish and couldn't bare the thought of doing it. Any who, I know many many women who play video games and from the one's I know they play more for leisure or for socializing. That doesn't mean they aren't competitive because I know plenty who hate to lose and then we have my DN peeps from online like Alice and Soo who are all about PvP and absolutely wreck house in the Arena. Don't mess with my girls. They kill you! :V
ZasZ.
Profile Joined May 2010
United States2911 Posts
January 03 2013 17:56 GMT
#66
I think the larger issue here is the community itself, not the infrastructure being able, or willing, to support female gamers. Consider this hypothetical scenario:

So you have a young woman who likes to play Starcraft 2, and is capable of doing so at the Master/Grandmaster level. She decides she's interested by the prospect of going pro, and knows that the first step would be to start streaming and promoting herself so that people can recognize her by name. It's hard for her to attract viewers at first, because no one knows about her, and when people do join her channel they insist she uses a webcam and talks on stream because she's a girl. She does those things, and her viewership rises because lets face it, most gamers are female-deprived. Most of us are aware of the cesspool of Twitch.tv chat, but it gets 10x worse when a female is on stream, with derogatory comments whether she is attractive or not. As her viewership rises, she needs a diligent mod squad to keep the chat under control so that she can interact with her viewers, another requirement for having a successful stream. But even with good mods, she gets frequent tastes of how terrible the online community is, and their behavior towards women when they have the anonymity of a computer screen between them.

This is before she manages to get a team, get sponsored, and participate in LAN tournaments, in which case she has to put herself out into this community, which is much nicer in person but still intimidating to anyone of either gender. She is probably on a team of men, managed by men, and cheered on by a community made up almost entirely of men. Consider how out of place you would feel in that situation.

With all that said, I think it is this combination of factors that results in so few women being interested in Starcraft 2 eSports. People don't get into professional SC2 because they think they will make a lot of money (or if they do, they're an idiot), they do it because they are drawn to the scene and love playing the game. Would you be drawn to the scene if you were a woman?
LavaLava
Profile Joined January 2012
United States235 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-01-03 18:06:15
January 03 2013 17:59 GMT
#67
It's really important to promote female gamers in this community, for a list of reasons- spreading the love of the game to women, growing the esport, public image, money, et cetera.

I do have an issue though. I think that if you have a female league and you cannot garner professional level competitors, then it should not be presented as a professional competition. If you want to target inexperienced players, then the perfect format is that of a social casual community.

It's a better way to gather newcomers than a professional tournament format, anyway- SC2 players aren't public idols. It's still a PC game, not an aspiration. I don't think creating a 'lower tier' says anything positive about women, and you'll have the same couple of real serious competitors winning the tournament every time they bother to enter, a la ToSsGirL back in the day.

There's a reason no one is giving people credit for accomplishments in IESF female. If you read the interview, it says the South African competitor who lost out to Aphrodite had only played the game for 5 months. So it was effectively a misappropriated casual event, not a professional level tournament.

If we can get a lot of women interested in the game, by opening and promoting casual competitive womens tournaments, you'll see more women winning professional tournaments. We've already had Scarlett gain notoriety for chewing through really good opponents and taking home the gold from WCS and others.
StarStruck
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
25339 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-01-03 18:10:45
January 03 2013 18:10 GMT
#68
On January 04 2013 02:56 ZasZ. wrote:
I think the larger issue here is the community itself, not the infrastructure being able, or willing, to support female gamers. Consider this hypothetical scenario:

So you have a young woman who likes to play Starcraft 2, and is capable of doing so at the Master/Grandmaster level. She decides she's interested by the prospect of going pro, and knows that the first step would be to start streaming and promoting herself so that people can recognize her by name. It's hard for her to attract viewers at first, because no one knows about her, and when people do join her channel they insist she uses a webcam and talks on stream because she's a girl. She does those things, and her viewership rises because lets face it, most gamers are female-deprived. Most of us are aware of the cesspool of Twitch.tv chat, but it gets 10x worse when a female is on stream, with derogatory comments whether she is attractive or not. As her viewership rises, she needs a diligent mod squad to keep the chat under control so that she can interact with her viewers, another requirement for having a successful stream. But even with good mods, she gets frequent tastes of how terrible the online community is, and their behavior towards women when they have the anonymity of a computer screen between them.

This is before she manages to get a team, get sponsored, and participate in LAN tournaments, in which case she has to put herself out into this community, which is much nicer in person but still intimidating to anyone of either gender. She is probably on a team of men, managed by men, and cheered on by a community made up almost entirely of men. Consider how out of place you would feel in that situation.

With all that said, I think it is this combination of factors that results in so few women being interested in Starcraft 2 eSports. People don't get into professional SC2 because they think they will make a lot of money (or if they do, they're an idiot), they do it because they are drawn to the scene and love playing the game. Would you be drawn to the scene if you were a woman?



This is true for any online community though and that's why some like to keep the fact they're female a secret because they don't want to get hounded. The great thing is it's not so much of a problem in some of the MMOs I play like the guild I've been with from the start in Dragon Nest. That really comes down how we recruit and weed players out at the same time. There are better ways to interact with your fans than using Twitch chat. I think there should be a way to be able to turn off the chat entirely if the user so desires or ignore it altogether because you will find idiots no matter where you go. Societal norms my man.
Ender985
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
Spain910 Posts
January 03 2013 18:14 GMT
#69
@Torte: there is a missing sentence in your OP,

Right now, females suffer from 2 prejudices:
“Females gamers are being signed for being a female rather than any real remarkable achievements”
“Female gamers who are not achieving, don’t deserve to be on a team”
(It’s a vicious circle: Female gets on a team without any achievements, female remains on the team but never sent to any events or actively used in team leagues. Never exposed, she never achieves anything or is a part of any team achievements).

promote themselves through their gender. While several solutions (...)

This last paragraph is missing something.

Also to add something to the discussion, I think female-only leagues are a good thing and should continue to get more exposure. Imagine if a female-specific GSL was held; we would probably see far better fermale players develop just to try and beat Scarlett for the price money.
Member of the Pirate Party - direct democracy, institutional transparency, and freedom of information
Torte de Lini
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Germany38463 Posts
January 03 2013 18:31 GMT
#70
On January 04 2013 03:14 Ender985 wrote:
@Torte: there is a missing sentence in your OP,

Show nested quote +
Right now, females suffer from 2 prejudices:
“Females gamers are being signed for being a female rather than any real remarkable achievements”
“Female gamers who are not achieving, don’t deserve to be on a team”
(It’s a vicious circle: Female gets on a team without any achievements, female remains on the team but never sent to any events or actively used in team leagues. Never exposed, she never achieves anything or is a part of any team achievements).

promote themselves through their gender. While several solutions (...)

This last paragraph is missing something.

Also to add something to the discussion, I think female-only leagues are a good thing and should continue to get more exposure. Imagine if a female-specific GSL was held; we would probably see far better fermale players develop just to try and beat Scarlett for the price money.



I'll definitely take a look, thanks!
https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)
ThomasjServo
Profile Blog Joined May 2012
15244 Posts
January 03 2013 18:39 GMT
#71
Comme d'habitude Tort, I was pondering writing a blog on the matter myself. I think that in general there is a bit too much of "Chat Mentality," when it comes to streamers like Spyte, Flo, and Livinpink (unsure if Maddelisk streams but that is my short list of relatively well known female streamers). That is to say berating via chat, and generally discouraging or misogynistic jabs, this is followed by the lapdog who not so coyly, attempts to sway the female streamer's favor (I wish David Attenborough would read that aloud for me).


I like the idea of female leagues if only for the fact that it allows them to come out of the white noise and get some proper time on stream. Part of the problem with females on proteams is just that they are overshadowed by the ostensibly more popular male talent. If, when Quantic was around, I wanted to watch a Terran and I had to choose between Flo and theStC, I was going to choose StC 99.9% of the time. This is mostly a function of the fact that I will not likely be able to say, "did you see that Flo game last night."

A female league is a great first step in developing a framework where in female players can get even better as players, a network where they can work together, and showcasing the proverbial better half of the SC2 community. I think that the first tournament organization to grab onto this and do cash tournaments well, will be uniquely positioned for some sponsorship opportunities.
StarStruck
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
25339 Posts
January 03 2013 18:54 GMT
#72
On January 04 2013 03:39 ThomasjServo wrote:
Comme d'habitude Tort, I was pondering writing a blog on the matter myself. I think that in general there is a bit too much of "Chat Mentality," when it comes to streamers like Spyte, Flo, and Livinpink (unsure if Maddelisk streams but that is my short list of relatively well known female streamers). That is to say berating via chat, and generally discouraging or misogynistic jabs, this is followed by the lapdog who not so coyly, attempts to sway the female streamer's favor (I wish David Attenborough would read that aloud for me).


I like the idea of female leagues if only for the fact that it allows them to come out of the white noise and get some proper time on stream. Part of the problem with females on proteams is just that they are overshadowed by the ostensibly more popular male talent. If, when Quantic was around, I wanted to watch a Terran and I had to choose between Flo and theStC, I was going to choose StC 99.9% of the time. This is mostly a function of the fact that I will not likely be able to say, "did you see that Flo game last night."

A female league is a great first step in developing a framework where in female players can get even better as players, a network where they can work together, and showcasing the proverbial better half of the SC2 community. I think that the first tournament organization to grab onto this and do cash tournaments well, will be uniquely positioned for some sponsorship opportunities.


That would fall under my social category.
Alryk
Profile Blog Joined November 2011
United States2718 Posts
January 03 2013 18:55 GMT
#73
On November 20 2012 05:20 dddoushio wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 20 2012 03:03 Torte de Lini wrote:

[*] “Female gamers who are not achieving, don’t deserve to be on a team”



I don't understand how this is prejudice


LG-IM Fenix and LG-IM Horror haven't really achieved anything notable, yet those people aren't even mentioned (nobody even cares about who they are anymore really).

Prior to disbanding, name the "achievements" TSL Cyrano and TSL Ragnarok had. (Answer: A single Code A Ro48 season for Ragnarok, and GSL Ro64 in 2010 for Cyrano). Not exactly notable, or anything achieved, but nobody complains.

Likewise, Startale Pet, Son, and Tiger haven't even been in the GSL. Nobody even really knows who they are, or cares about what their results are.

Girls are singled out though, it's happened before. If they don't achieve (anybody who isn't scarlett), people have claimed they are just models/advertising.
Team Liquid, IM, ViOlet!
Torte de Lini
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Germany38463 Posts
January 03 2013 19:03 GMT
#74
In regards to female professionals, my viewpoint is that looks do help distinguish yourself from others (as do other traits or qualities), but it doesn't necessarily succeed your career or establish yourself. Those who try to cash in on their looks without truly improving their ability to do their job will ultimately fall out in the long-run.

But that's my opinion at least.
https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)
ThomasjServo
Profile Blog Joined May 2012
15244 Posts
January 03 2013 19:07 GMT
#75
On January 04 2013 04:03 Torte de Lini wrote:
In regards to female professionals, my viewpoint is that looks do help distinguish yourself from others (as do other traits or qualities), but it doesn't necessarily succeed your career or establish yourself. Those who try to cash in on their looks without truly improving their ability to do their job will ultimately fall out in the long-run.

But that's my opinion at least.

In a nutshell: Looks does not a career make, but it can't hurt. I see this as a potential problem for Korean, professional gamers. Aprodite, Eve, and Tossgirl are all attractive. It may be rather niche, but that is another interesting facet to the female SC2 player conundrum.
syltz
Profile Joined April 2012
Sweden187 Posts
January 03 2013 19:07 GMT
#76
On November 20 2012 04:34 Grumbels wrote:
This is ridiculous, one problem society does not have is males being discriminated against. Just look at this community, where maybe some female players get preferential treatment in some ways, but mostly they have to put up with incredible amounts of hostility from the community for their gender. They can't ever achieve anything without constant discussion about it, Scarlett for instance still has to put up with a multitude of trolls on reddit making disgusting comments every time she's mentioned - although her case is slightly different of course.

Oh come on, this is just silly. Discrimination against men is very much real especially when it comes to custody questions and divorces. In fact in Skåne län, the southern-most Swedish state (state? county?), where the verdict was that a single parent should be given custody 76% of those cases were in favour of the mother as seen here. Unfortunately it's in swedish, of course. Basically in 804 verdicts between 2007 and 2009 422 verdicts gave custody to a single parent and only 100 of these (the 422 that is) granted custody to the father. The other verdicts resulted in some form of shared custody. In fact in Lund city 100% of the custody cases granted the mother full custody during these years.
So to say that discrimination against men is not a problem is just, as I said, silly. It might not be as big of an issue as discrimination against women but it does exist.

Just thought I'd share even though the relevance to prejudice and discrimination within the e-Sports scene is quite small.
Grend
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
1600 Posts
January 03 2013 19:10 GMT
#77
I thought the other gaming gender would be transgender or something (no joke)
♞ Against the Wind - Bob Seger ♞
Torte de Lini
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Germany38463 Posts
January 03 2013 19:12 GMT
#78
On January 04 2013 04:07 ThomasjServo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 04 2013 04:03 Torte de Lini wrote:
In regards to female professionals, my viewpoint is that looks do help distinguish yourself from others (as do other traits or qualities), but it doesn't necessarily succeed your career or establish yourself. Those who try to cash in on their looks without truly improving their ability to do their job will ultimately fall out in the long-run.

But that's my opinion at least.

In a nutshell: Looks does not a career make, but it can't hurt. I see this as a potential problem for Korean, professional gamers. Aprodite, Eve, and Tossgirl are all attractive. It may be rather niche, but that is another interesting facet to the female SC2 player conundrum.


I think when it comes to public jobs such as presenter and such, is it really that unexpected to see an attractive female presenting? If she does her job right, the employers are satisfied, naturally we'll see more of her for all the reasons, not just her looks.

Before Lauren, NASL hired someone else (I don't even remember her name lol), she didn't know StarCraft, wasn't too comfortable and overall, everyone didn't take her seriously.

Then they got Lauren and although she is hired primarily for her looks, she showed a willingness to improve as well as respect the profession.
https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)
StarStruck
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
25339 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-01-03 19:16:00
January 03 2013 19:15 GMT
#79
On January 04 2013 03:55 Alryk wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 20 2012 05:20 dddoushio wrote:
On November 20 2012 03:03 Torte de Lini wrote:

[*] “Female gamers who are not achieving, don’t deserve to be on a team”



I don't understand how this is prejudice


LG-IM Fenix and LG-IM Horror haven't really achieved anything notable, yet those people aren't even mentioned (nobody even cares about who they are anymore really).

Prior to disbanding, name the "achievements" TSL Cyrano and TSL Ragnarok had. (Answer: A single Code A Ro48 season for Ragnarok, and GSL Ro64 in 2010 for Cyrano). Not exactly notable, or anything achieved, but nobody complains.

Likewise, Startale Pet, Son, and Tiger haven't even been in the GSL. Nobody even really knows who they are, or cares about what their results are.

Girls are singled out though, it's happened before. If they don't achieve (anybody who isn't scarlett), people have claimed they are just models/advertising.


Um, teams have a lot of players and practice partners man and this goes back to how KeSPA does things. I think of Fenix more of a practice partner more than anything else and with all the different partnerships it's really hard to keep track of everything. Why do you think people are always on Liquid's and EG's balls? It's because of overexposure. We have this website which quite a few people use and then you have the endless plugs from EG and their sponsors. It's just generating more and more exposure. Then every once in a while you hear about some girl joining a pro gaming team and of course because it's the internet you're going to hear all sorts of ramble and players do get picked apart. I actually remember Fenix getting picked apart for him disappearing. You have to accept it for it is because it's never going to change and the best way to deal with it is to work in your own personal bubble and look to interact with your fans in other ways other than chat rooms and internet forums. I even mock the people who use twitter including my friends, but guess what? Some of them feel like they don't really have an option especially when they're in showbiz and trying to build a base.

On January 04 2013 04:12 Torte de Lini wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 04 2013 04:07 ThomasjServo wrote:
On January 04 2013 04:03 Torte de Lini wrote:
In regards to female professionals, my viewpoint is that looks do help distinguish yourself from others (as do other traits or qualities), but it doesn't necessarily succeed your career or establish yourself. Those who try to cash in on their looks without truly improving their ability to do their job will ultimately fall out in the long-run.

But that's my opinion at least.

In a nutshell: Looks does not a career make, but it can't hurt. I see this as a potential problem for Korean, professional gamers. Aprodite, Eve, and Tossgirl are all attractive. It may be rather niche, but that is another interesting facet to the female SC2 player conundrum.


I think when it comes to public jobs such as presenter and such, is it really that unexpected to see an attractive female presenting? If she does her job right, the employers are satisfied, naturally we'll see more of her for all the reasons, not just her looks.

Before Lauren, NASL hired someone else (I don't even remember her name lol), she didn't know StarCraft, wasn't too comfortable and overall, everyone didn't take her seriously.

Then they got Lauren and although she is hired primarily for her looks, she showed a willingness to improve as well as respect the profession.


You guys ever hear the story about how the MBC manager decided to pick up Bisu?
iMAniaC
Profile Joined March 2010
Norway703 Posts
January 03 2013 19:15 GMT
#80
On January 04 2013 03:14 Ender985 wrote:Also to add something to the discussion, I think female-only leagues are a good thing and should continue to get more exposure. Imagine if a female-specific GSL was held; we would probably see far better fermale players develop just to try and beat Scarlett for the price money.


You don't have to think female-only leagues are a good thing, you can pretty much know. I distinctly remember seeing Flo and Maddelisk both say that they got competitive because they played in some female-only tournament for fun and then got encouraged to become competitive when they realized how much fun it actually was (or something along those lines. I'm writing from memory). Considering the small number of public female SC2 gamers, we could already say that the female-only tournaments have done a considerable impact in drawing women to competitive SC2. Also, at the end of 2011, there were lots of female-only tournaments and at the same time, several teams added at least one woman to their rosters. I'm willing to think that the correlation is not random.
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