EPTPlease stop making up sexism that doesn't exist it's infuriating to say the least.
The Other Gaming Gender (Armchair Athleticism) - Page 6
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Killcani
Sweden448 Posts
Please stop making up sexism that doesn't exist it's infuriating to say the least. | ||
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NotRandoMNamE
80 Posts
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Takkara
United States2503 Posts
On January 04 2013 05:22 Killcani wrote: Girls generally are not interested in competive games that's the only reason there are no good female pro-gamers. There is nothing stopping girls to get good at this game. Actually being a girl in e-sports today has many benefits like being able to join teams a guy with similar skills could never do. Please stop making up sexism that doesn't exist it's infuriating to say the least. The notion that girls are not interested in competitive games is not a biological fact, it is a stereotype. The idea that your stereotype is the ONLY reason there no good female pro-gamers is a prejudice. I don't think people are proposing that there is a grand sexist machinery that is actively blocking women from participating. However, there is a long history of video games and competitive gaming being "male" activities, which could make it less inviting and more intimidating for women to get involved. Analogues to this exist everywhere. The simplest parallel also involves gender. There is a stereotype that Reading and Writing are "women's topics" and Math and Science are "boy's topics". The numbers of women engineers and computer scientists are historically quite low. Therefore, there is a lot of effort to get women involved in science and technology. There's nothing genetic or inherent in women that stops them from getting involved in science and technology, but it turns out that historically the numbers of women involved are low. Because society desires to reverse that trend, many organizations, scholarships, and programs are created to entice more women to enter the fields. It's not always institutionalized sexism or racism that is the problem. It can just be that statistics went lopsided in particular demographics and some group or society at large wants to counteract the issue by promoting behaviors in the underrepresented demographics. | ||
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Sbrubbles
Brazil5775 Posts
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ranshaked
United States870 Posts
On January 04 2013 05:32 Takkara wrote: I started to think about how many girls I know that play games competitively, and I've been able to count two.The notion that girls are not interested in competitive games is not a biological fact, it is a stereotype. The idea that your stereotype is the ONLY reason there no good female pro-gamers is a prejudice. I don't think people are proposing that there is a grand sexist machinery that is actively blocking women from participating. However, there is a long history of video games and competitive gaming being "male" activities, which could make it less inviting and more intimidating for women to get involved. Analogues to this exist everywhere. The simplest parallel also involves gender. There is a stereotype that Reading and Writing are "women's topics" and Math and Science are "boy's topics". The numbers of women engineers and computer scientists are historically quite low. Therefore, there is a lot of effort to get women involved in science and technology. There's nothing genetic or inherent in women that stops them from getting involved in science and technology, but it turns out that historically the numbers of women involved are low. Because society desires to reverse that trend, many organizations, scholarships, and programs are created to entice more women to enter the fields. It's not always institutionalized sexism or racism that is the problem. It can just be that statistics went lopsided in particular demographics and some group or society at large wants to counteract the issue by promoting behaviors in the underrepresented demographics. Both of them play black ops 2 PC on top American teams, but that's it. I don't know any girls IRL that play competitively, hell I know barely any that actually play games for anything other than being drunk and having fun. | ||
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skatblast
United States784 Posts
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Torte de Lini
Germany38463 Posts
On January 04 2013 05:42 skatblast wrote: If you have female only tournaments, than you should be able to have all male tournaments. Its not a physical sport there is no advantage. You didn't read the text. | ||
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Killcani
Sweden448 Posts
On January 04 2013 05:32 Takkara wrote: The notion that girls are not interested in competitive games is not a biological fact, it is a stereotype. The idea that your stereotype is the ONLY reason there no good female pro-gamers is a prejudice. I don't think people are proposing that there is a grand sexist machinery that is actively blocking women from participating. However, there is a long history of video games and competitive gaming being "male" activities, which could make it less inviting and more intimidating for women to get involved. Analogues to this exist everywhere. The simplest parallel also involves gender. There is a stereotype that Reading and Writing are "women's topics" and Math and Science are "boy's topics". The numbers of women engineers and computer scientists are historically quite low. Therefore, there is a lot of effort to get women involved in science and technology. There's nothing genetic or inherent in women that stops them from getting involved in science and technology, but it turns out that historically the numbers of women involved are low. Because society desires to reverse that trend, many organizations, scholarships, and programs are created to entice more women to enter the fields. It's not always institutionalized sexism or racism that is the problem. It can just be that statistics went lopsided in particular demographics and some group or society at large wants to counteract the issue by promoting behaviors in the underrepresented demographics. I do know alot of people think like you do and go up in arms when they hear females and males are not 50/50 in everything everywhere. Oh the discrimination that we have more males interested in pursueing technical jobs like we have always had forever in every culture all over the world. Truely this must be because prejudices against women and must be fixed in our no gender society we have today. Why is it so bad that males and females have different interests in lives? Is it so hard to think that maybe this isnt all because stereotypes and prejudices? I personally think that women having an easier time to get into technical school and such than males is disgusting and is directly against equality. | ||
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playa
United States1284 Posts
On January 04 2013 05:42 skatblast wrote: If you have female only tournaments, than you should be able to have all male tournaments. Its not a physical sport there is no advantage. It's not about advantages or disadvantages. It's just about the question of do you want there to be more girl gamers or not? I know a girl gamer. She likes playing tournaments. You feel kinda bad because you know she has 0 chance. It's just for "fun." But, if there actually were girl tournaments, she probably would have a legit shot of winning. The lack of tournaments for girls just hurts their drive to play. They already are an "endangered species," may as well try to protect them if you care about them at all. It could help remove some stigmas attached to girl and guy gamers. There are already guy pro gamers that are there because they are entertainers (thin line between entertainer and clown)... having a girl league would be far less of a joke to me. | ||
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LavaLava
United States235 Posts
On January 04 2013 05:32 Takkara wrote: The notion that girls are not interested in competitive games is not a biological fact, it is a stereotype. The idea that your stereotype is the ONLY reason there no good female pro-gamers is a prejudice. I don't think people are proposing that there is a grand sexist machinery that is actively blocking women from participating. However, there is a long history of video games and competitive gaming being "male" activities, which could make it less inviting and more intimidating for women to get involved. Analogues to this exist everywhere. The simplest parallel also involves gender. There is a stereotype that Reading and Writing are "women's topics" and Math and Science are "boy's topics". The numbers of women engineers and computer scientists are historically quite low. Therefore, there is a lot of effort to get women involved in science and technology. There's nothing genetic or inherent in women that stops them from getting involved in science and technology, but it turns out that historically the numbers of women involved are low. Because society desires to reverse that trend, many organizations, scholarships, and programs are created to entice more women to enter the fields. It's not always institutionalized sexism or racism that is the problem. It can just be that statistics went lopsided in particular demographics and some group or society at large wants to counteract the issue by promoting behaviors in the underrepresented demographics. Ugh. He didn't present it as a biological fact. He said "Girls generally are not interested in competive games", which implies that if you ask women if they like competitive games, they are less likely to say yes than men. Come on, that's probably true. Not due to biology! Just simply the current reality. And you're freaking out that he's expressing a stereotype and a generalization, when the entire discussion speaks to a generalization about women. The generalization is that they are unsuccessful in Starcraft 2. You can't have someone announce a generalization and then get mad when everyone replies that other general facts contribute to the original generalization. If we're getting auto-pissed at any and all generalizations, then the whole thread's an offensive sexist mess! You can't say women aren't represented in Starcraft! There are an entire handful of them! etc. While we're at it, not ALLLLL Starcraft II players send sexual harassment over Twitch.tv chat, so no talking about how that could contribute to the numbers! | ||
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FabledIntegral
United States9232 Posts
Right now, females suffer from 2 prejudices: • “Females gamers are being signed for being a female rather than any real remarkable achievements” • “Female gamers who are not achieving, don’t deserve to be on a team” Both of them hold true in my eyes. The rest of your post is wholly unconvincing of there being anything wrong with this mentality. From what I've seen, there are not many black progamers either. If EG signed a black gamer that was in diamond that had absolutely nothing on his resume, I'm sure there would be backlash too. | ||
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ohmkerg
United States102 Posts
On January 04 2013 05:04 R3DT1D3 wrote: Even incredibly popular sports (like the NBA) can't support women only leagues. While it would be nice for more females to be involved in gaming, I just don't think it's feasible in any sort of physical competition that is already dominated by men. uhhhhh WNBA? | ||
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dUTtrOACh
Canada2339 Posts
On January 04 2013 05:50 playa wrote: It's not about advantages or disadvantages. It's just about the question of do you want there to be more girl gamers or not? I know a girl gamer. She likes playing tournaments. You feel kinda bad because you know she has 0 chance. It's just for "fun." But, if there actually were girl tournaments, she probably would have a legit shot of winning. The lack of tournaments for girls just hurts their drive to play. They already are an "endangered species," may as well try to protect them if you care about them at all. It could help remove some stigmas attached to girl and guy gamers. There are already guy pro gamers that are there because they are entertainers (thin line between entertainer and clown)... having a girl league would be far less of a joke to me. Your friend would be equally likely to beat a male GM as a female GM. If she's playing in tournaments, but being unrealistic (read: playing above her skill level) there is never hope for her to win - unisex competition or female only - it doesn't matter. Some people are destined for enjoy level, and I don't think a female only league would be any easier for female players to win against players of equal skill. What deters other girls from even entering that league would be the level of opposition. It's like creating a league for only... I dunno... ginger players. Yes, you get less people, because it's rare for someone to be ginger, making the gaps in skill levels between individual players MUCH MORE noticeable. While it makes it easier for the best player of that group to win, it actually makes it much harder for them to actually showcase their skill, due to the limitations of the competition as a whole. If eSports organizations genuinely feel like they're helping minority groups of any kind by having "niche tournaments" than so be it. I disagree strongly with it. Tournaments should be open to everyone who is eligible to compete. | ||
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playa
United States1284 Posts
On January 04 2013 06:00 dUTtrOACh wrote: Your friend would be equally likely to beat a male GM as a female GM. If she's playing in tournaments, but being unrealistic (read: playing above her skill level) there is never hope for her to win - unisex competition or female only - it doesn't matter. Some people are destined for enjoy level, and I don't think a female only league would be any easier for female players to win against players of equal skill. What deters other girls from even entering that league would be the level of opposition. It's like creating a league for only... I dunno... ginger players. Yes, you get less people, because it's rare for someone to be ginger, making the gaps in skill levels between individual players MUCH MORE noticeable. While it makes it easier for the best player of that group to win, it actually makes it much harder for them to actually showcase their skill, due to the limitations of the competition as a whole. If eSports organizations genuinely feel like they're helping minority groups of any kind by having "niche tournaments" than so be it. I disagree strongly with it. Tournaments should be open to everyone who is eligible to compete. Obviously, but that's not the reality of the skill level of the two genders. She's high diamond. I'm not aware of any girl players that are GM. There's probably not many that are masters, either. So for any girl gamer wanting a legit shot to compete, a girl only tournament would be huge. Even if you're silver league, it's a lot easier to advance to a competitive level within the girl scene than to beat the GM players entering other tournaments. The skill level will always be lower for girl leagues until there are just as many girls players as guys. | ||
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ThomasjServo
15244 Posts
On January 04 2013 05:53 FabledIntegral wrote: As people have stated before, I see utterly nothing wrong with either of these Both of them hold true in my eyes. The rest of your post is wholly unconvincing of there being anything wrong with this mentality. From what I've seen, there are not many black progamers either. If EG signed a black gamer that was in diamond that had absolutely nothing on his resume, I'm sure there would be backlash too. Interesting to bring up something like affirmative action into the discussion. I imagine community demographics break down on extremely skewed lines, probably something to the effect of: White/Asian males as the majority, Misc. Ethnicity males (forgive the lack of specifics here there would be a lot), and in third you would have females as a group across ethnic lines. The second supposition inherently implies that there is no other role that a team member might play regardless of showings in competition. A lot of rosters have players that fit that bill. The former idea, that females are being signed by virtue of their gender rather than merit definitely holds water in my opinion. I think the mentality is not necessarily incorrect, but more something which we should look to affect in a positive way. Offering venues for competitive play so as to develop a resume for teams to show, and just offering a venue outside of team leagues and open brackets at major events. | ||
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Killcani
Sweden448 Posts
On January 04 2013 06:10 playa wrote: Obviously, but that's not the reality of the skill level of the two genders. She's high diamond. I'm not aware of any girl players that are GM. There's probably not many that are masters, either. So for any girl gamer wanting a legit shot to compete, a girl only tournament would be huge. Even if you're silver league, it's a lot easier to advance to a competitive level within the girl scene than to beat the GM players entering other tournaments. The skill level will always be lower for girl leagues until there are just as many girls players as guys. The same can be said for any male diamond player and the vast majority of the player base but that aside. Why do you think there's a demand for girl only tournaments from girls?. Are they not content with just playing the ladder/ciustom games like 99.9% of everyone else?. I am not against female tournaments but I don't really think they would accomplish much. The female player base of starcraft 2 is from my understanding really low. Sure you could create a tournament for the in my mind really low numbers of female players who want to compete. That's no big deal but its not a huge issue if there are no girl tournaments either. | ||
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Torte de Lini
Germany38463 Posts
Doing so has 0 negative side-effects. | ||
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dUTtrOACh
Canada2339 Posts
On January 04 2013 06:14 ThomasjServo wrote: Interesting to bring up something like affirmative action into the discussion. I imagine community demographics break down on extremely skewed lines, probably something to the effect of: White/Asian males as the majority, Misc. Ethnicity males (forgive the lack of specifics here there would be a lot), and in third you would have females as a group across ethnic lines. The second supposition inherently implies that there is no other role that a team member might play regardless of showings in competition. A lot of rosters have players that fit that bill. The former idea, that females are being signed by virtue of their gender rather than merit definitely holds water in my opinion. I think the mentality is not necessarily incorrect, but more something which we should look to affect in a positive way. Offering venues for competitive play so as to develop a resume for teams to show, and just offering a venue outside of team leagues and open brackets at major events. This is why I'm saying it comes down to the organizations at the end of the day. Fans will gravitate toward what they like, so teams should feel free to experiment with different types of PR, but let's also not forget to distinguish that there can be a bit of a difference between a pro and an entertainer; sometimes, a player is both, and sometimes they're either one. As long as a team isn't sending their entertainers to serious tournaments, in the place of their deserving pros, to be used as sacrificial ratings lambs, I really don't have a problem with why they add new players to their roster. The integrity & success of eSports are measured by its ability to branch out to a larger audience, but without becoming a farce. | ||
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LavaLava
United States235 Posts
On January 04 2013 05:53 FabledIntegral wrote: As people have stated before, I see utterly nothing wrong with either of these Both of them hold true in my eyes. The rest of your post is wholly unconvincing of there being anything wrong with this mentality. From what I've seen, there are not many black progamers either. If EG signed a black gamer that was in diamond that had absolutely nothing on his resume, I'm sure there would be backlash too. Yeah, pretty much this. There also are very few disabled SC2 players, and depending on the disability, they may have quite the disadvantage in game, but you wouldn't give a disabled guy a pro team jersey and parade him around on stage unless he was posting actual tournament results. Just so we get away from the idea of minorities, think of it this way. If a professional coach had a 14 year old nephew in Gold league and he put him on the roster and had him promoted as a pro gamer, people would call him insane. The team would be discredited. The kid just isn't good at the game! Out of the Starcraft community's core values, technical skill holds by far the most importance, followed closely by integrity. This utterly breaks both. In the former case, those values are often broken for the sake of ad views. More people should come to understand why this creates a negative reaction. | ||
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dUTtrOACh
Canada2339 Posts
On January 04 2013 06:10 playa wrote: Obviously, but that's not the reality of the skill level of the two genders. She's high diamond. I'm not aware of any girl players that are GM. There's probably not many that are masters, either. So for any girl gamer wanting a legit shot to compete, a girl only tournament would be huge. Even if you're silver league, it's a lot easier to advance to a competitive level within the girl scene than to beat the GM players entering other tournaments. The skill level will always be lower for girl leagues until there are just as many girls players as guys. I know that if I were to play her in a unisex tournament, I would get my ass whooped. I'm convinced, however, that the skill level of female tournaments being lower is a result of the sample group being lower. Local and Online tournaments often will also have lower skill levels, because of this very reason. MC and Jaedong aren't going to show up at your local $5 entry fee LAN, but Joe Schmo the bronze Zerg might show up for the love of eSports and get destructed in the first round. I'm not sure how I feel about a women only Proleague, or even women only tournaments. It just kinda comes out like segregation. | ||
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