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On January 07 2013 00:16 Destro wrote:
Honestly, i dont understand why people even care. Thats the great thing about esports.. its not about physical strength or anything like that. If you take it beyond the game into other things, sure.
but lets get this straight, there are NO disadvantages to women playing games. unless you give yourself a retarded name like cupcakeprincess or something in game, no one is going to know what gender you are nor care.
I feel like the problem is with the female gamer culture.. how many times to we need the "o hai im a girl and i play games OMG im such a nerd ^^ kekekeek" There are a lot of serious female gamers that dont even give on that they are female just because it doesnt fucking matter. To suggest women have a disadvantage when it comes to video games, is to suggest they are inferior in some sort of what which is just fucked up.
however, its a male dominated industry. and unless the culture shifts, you are still going to have sexism. I dont think its a flaw in the community, but more a flaw in society. And to be fair, if it was the other way around, it would be the men made fun of.. mostly by their peers however.
Chess has separate men's and women's world championships because women are just not competitive in high level chess (unless their name is Judit Polgár). Competitions in other board games such as Weiqi (Go) and Xiangqi are also often separated in men's and women's category.
So there is a lot of prevedent for havin separate men's and women's tournaments in strategy games. There is probably more to it than the scene as a whole being male dominated.
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Training environments are male-dominated, which may hinder female players. I don't endorse lowering the bar so that female competitors can make it over, but I see the sense in creating practice environments that will more efficiently help female competitors reach that level.
Female teams/clans/practice partner lists might be very valuable indeed.
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On January 07 2013 15:46 Severedevil wrote:
Training environments are male-dominated, which may hinder female players. I don't endorse lowering the bar so that female competitors can make it over, but I see the sense in creating practice environments that will more efficiently help female competitors reach that level.
Female teams/clans/practice partner lists might be very valuable indeed.
....wat? You're going to have to explain this one bit more. I don't understand how a training environment composed of males would hinder a female player from improving.
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On January 07 2013 13:39 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2013 22:37 iMAniaC wrote:So I'm quoting from a few pages back, because the discussion was much better back then  On January 05 2013 09:55 FabledIntegral wrote:
Also, my point wasn't rather that if 5 new female gamers are introduced, 5 male gamers are hindered from coming in. Rather, it meant, we should just grow the scene regardless by attempting to attract 5 people to the scene, regardless of gender. We should not actively attempt to target 5 female gamers (or 5 male gamers for that matter), but rather work on getting an additional 5 gamers to the scene in general (of course, 5 being a completely arbitrary number). The article fails to mention the benefit of targeting females in particular - why 5 more female gamers is superior to simply 5 more gamers. Although I do very much appreciate the attempt get at the core values of the problem, just like theoretical physics are often done in a frictionless vacuum, I think it's a bit of an oversimplification in this matter, because the esports community is not a homogenous mass working in unison for the best of esports. I think we need to take into account that people have different interests and different motivations and that we do not deal with the choice of getting either a female tournament/interview/whatever or a male tournament/interview/whatever, but rather getting either a female tournament or no tournament at all. So the question is, is the female tournament/interview detrimental to esports as a whole? If we have the chance of bringing in 5 new female gamers, should we not take chance, just because it could not have brought in 5 new male gamers? If this is your answer: On January 06 2013 02:32 FabledIntegral wrote:And it's still blatant discrimination. If I'm a white supremacist that wants to open a restaurant for whites only, should I be able to do it? I wouldn't open a restaurant otherwise, because I think Blacks, Hispanics, Asians, Middle-Eastern (lumped), etc. are all scum. So at the very least, I'm adding value by providing services to Whites, right? That's better than no value being added at all? Then, how do you feel about a tournament for certain nationalities only, like just a Dutch tournament, or just a European tournament? Are they equally discriminatory as female-only tournaments? Or what about a tournament among friends or any invitational tournament where not everyone is allowed to compete? Would you object to them? Also, seeing that not all invitational tournaments include only the topmost skilled players of the world, do you object to them because some spots went to less deserving players while the more deserving players were excluded? Or what about the Brood War  TSL's, where Koreans, specifically, were not allowed to compete? If you do not object to all of these examples, are you able to pinpoint exactly where the qualitative difference between arbitrary factors like gender, nationality, social network etc is and explain why gender is a worse arbitrary factor to use in discrimination than the others? The resturant analogy is a good one and I think the difference lies in that a tournament is a competition while a restaurant is entertainment/recreation, and also that a bar is an open establishment with clear guidelines while an internet tournament is not as clearly defined. If you like to have a white supremacist restaurant in your living room, I should think no one would stop you from letting non-whites into your private house (and we'll conveniently disregard the fact that you can't start businesses that are truly private, because that's not the point). So in physical life, the boundaries between private and public are fairly well defined. On the internet, however, the boundaries are not as clearly defined and it's not immediately easy to tell if a certain activity is private or public. However, I think the female-only leagues can easily be described as public because whoever is allowed to watch them, including men. So the female tournaments are public entertainment open for watching by men and women alike. So, to get back to your analogy, a public restaurant for whites only is just as bad as a public tournament that only women are allowed to watch. Both genders should be able to enjoy the entertainment/recreation and indeed, in female tournaments they do. So what is the entertainment/recreation made up of? That's where we have some freedom of choice. Should your restaurant (which has now been deemed open to people of any skin colour) be compelled to serve both Coca Cola and Pepsi Cola because it is discriminatory to only serve one of them? Should a sports bar be compelled to show curling as well as football, because it is discriminatory not to include all sports in a sports bar? I think the establishment should have some freedom to choose what they're doing. Besides, most female tournaments are usually sub-groups of larger tournament organizing bodies, catering to both males and females. On January 05 2013 09:55 FabledIntegral wrote:I think it takes more resources to target female gamers than male gamers, which is completely unnecessary. I have zero interest in actively bringing female gamers to the scene, as I see zero benefit or value from doing so. I only see value in bringing people in general to the scene, which I think is easier to do so with males. Even if the esports community were a homogenous mass working in unison for the best of esports, wouldn't female-only tournaments actually be a very valid thing to do? For one thing, there's a potential to double the market without any additional infrastructure, because women exist alongside men already, so if we could get the women interested, it would mark a huge influx of members to the community. The point I'm trying to make is that the potential in getting female players is possibly larger than the potential of getting more male players and that's why we should try. In essence, I disagree that the resources per player is higher for females and males, because there are so many females and if we could just break the barrier, we'd see a huge influx of players for very little resources. Moreover, since female gamers draw disproportionately more attention than male gamers in respect to their achievements, wouldn't it actually be desirable to hold female tournaments because they would have a statistically higher view count than a mixed-gender tournament of the same level, that is, they have a higher "profit margin" as it were? This became a much longer post than I though it would... This is the kind of response I was looking for! Still don't necessarily agree with you, but its awesome to see points actually being addressed, having reasons for why it should be done, etc. And while I would love to take the time to write up a response, unfortunately I'm without a desktop and am using a tablet right now... Would take forever to structure a well put rebuttal or whatnot. Hopefully ASUS stops dicking around with the RMA that's taking 3 weeks now... Seeing as I just left my Acer laptop to be repaired at a shop this weekend too =(.
You're welcome  I'm subscribed to this thread, so I'll probably see your response whenever you get around to it. I, too wouldn't want to answer a wall-of-text on only a tablet!
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I think the primary problem with female gamers is the fanbase. I feel sorry for any female progamer getting showered with "omg u so pretty" comments / e-flirting where male pros receive fan messages based on actual ingame prowess.
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I think it needs to be reiterated that very few if any people are getting offended at the bare concept of female-only Starcraft events.
I think the animosity comes from styling and presenting these events as if they were professional level competitions, when they don't include skilled players.
I think there are several thousand people in the Starcraft community who put in a lot of time and effort to become recognized as real competitors, sacrificing a lot of time and energy to no avail, and they see essentially casual players being shooed in to wear the badge of honor. That's the core problem here.
Probably 90% of the attention Scarlett receives is from her outstanding play, and then the other 10% is her gender. And I don't think anyone is really mad about that extra attention at all. She deserves it, she's really good at the game. She's far, far past the mark, and the community is happy to give her extra attention.
I don't think the gender factor is even very important. Any similar situation would make people mad. I think if some male actor or singer or say Justin Bieber started streaming silver level Starcraft II, and then next thing you know TL signs him for the massive adbuxx, the community would absolutely lose its collective shit and go into full fucking meltdown mode. The horror.
So I've sort of said this before, but until you can find 7 or 8 more Scarletts, present your female-only competitions as casual events-- competitive in nature, but targeted towards a wider segment of the female community. I think it's a better way to draw in newcomers, and you'll dodge 99.9% of the nerdrage.
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On November 20 2012 03:03 Torte de Lini wrote:
Females sit uncomfortably on a double-edged sword where they cannot be proud of their gender...
I'm a bit perplexed that it appears you didn't talk to any gender studies experts before writing this piece.
Many modern feminists or gender studies experts believe that women will not be equal until they can say "now I don't have to be woman anymore" (as opposed to the previous belief where one day women could say "now I can finally be a woman").
The gender "female" is synonymous with the lesser in all major languages. You throw like a girl, you hit like a girl, you cried like a little girl, don't get your panties in a bunch... or perhaps my favorite, when GJ Jane says "suck my cock" perhaps the ultimate insult to women in a movie that was trying to show women can be strong. When she said that, she was implying that she had become powerful because she had a penis, not because she had a vagina. Sad how poorly society understands this huh?
Sexism is ingrained in language. How could women be proud of what we have made women into?
They can't. And that is why many modern feminists believe we will achieve equally when they can say "now I don't have to be woman anymore."
As for the relationship with E-Sports, well it is no different that any other relationship. Female only tournaments reinforces the belief that females are lesser. That simply isn't true. They can compete. Females were thought once not to be able to go school for fear they wouldn't understand it. But now females normally out test males, even in male dominated areas, such as math.
SC2 today is full of males, and thus the chances of finding a great male player is much higher. However, if you took a random sampling of male players from the scene and had them compete against a random sample of females with equal RTS experience, I bet it would be very close.
EDIT: My mistake, I didn't realize this was old, thought it was a series of pieces he released along with this article: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=427926
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You're transcending the cultural-feministic issues of eSports and broadening to a range of language and history of culture. Regardless of my degree and the classes I took, to deviate onto such a subject that broad is pretty strenuous and pointless, since there's no resolve either and we have different perspectives.
Female only tournaments reinforces the belief that females are lesser
I don't see how that makes necessary sense? It's by assumption people think this rather than heightening the exposure of a non-majority class of people (class being category or differentiation in gender, ethnic groups, etc.). Then you broaden it again to comparisons in schools, which, if I recall how I wrote this article, we were stepping away from comparisons.
Don't compare genders, there are entire fields of study devoted to the political and sociological study of women and the history, but even at the introduction level of political classes, most prominent feminist political groups aim to separate the need to compare the two genders/sexes. It's not about being equal to men, it's about being two same-level party of people, exposing both for who they are independently, not in relation to one another.
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Females-only tournament doesn't make women lesser any more than the NAACP endorses segregation. Female-only tournaments showcase the female StarCraft II players that get lost in an ocean of testosterone. It shows that we're not actually a 100% male scene, and that we want more women to play. Even if you don't see the value of a diverse female demographic, an inclusive scene attracts eyes. We're trying to defy the still-prevalent stereotype that all gamers are socially inept man-nerds. We want people to know that we have and welcome socially inept women too.
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On September 04 2013 06:04 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2012 03:03 Torte de Lini wrote:
Females sit uncomfortably on a double-edged sword where they cannot be proud of their gender... The gender "female" is synonymous with the lesser in all major languages. You throw like a girl, you hit like a girl, you cried like a little girl, don't get your panties in a bunch... or perhaps my favorite, when GJ Jane says "suck my cock" perhaps the ultimate insult to women in a movie that was trying to show women can be strong. When she said that, she was implying that she had become powerful because she had a penis, not because she had a vagina. Sad how poorly society understands this huh? Sexism is ingrained in language. How could women be proud of what we have made women into?
How does this sexism theory of yours account for you're a dick not being a compliment? Is you jump like an elephant an expression of elephant discrimination?
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On September 05 2013 10:24 Darkwhite wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2013 06:04 BronzeKnee wrote:On November 20 2012 03:03 Torte de Lini wrote:
Females sit uncomfortably on a double-edged sword where they cannot be proud of their gender... The gender "female" is synonymous with the lesser in all major languages. You throw like a girl, you hit like a girl, you cried like a little girl, don't get your panties in a bunch... or perhaps my favorite, when GJ Jane says "suck my cock" perhaps the ultimate insult to women in a movie that was trying to show women can be strong. When she said that, she was implying that she had become powerful because she had a penis, not because she had a vagina. Sad how poorly society understands this huh? Sexism is ingrained in language. How could women be proud of what we have made women into? How does this sexism theory of yours account for you're a dick not being a compliment? Is you jump like an elephant an expression of elephant discrimination?
I really hope your defense of a sexism-riddled language isn't that we still use male genitalia to insult people.
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On September 05 2013 13:10 Shantastic wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2013 10:24 Darkwhite wrote:On September 04 2013 06:04 BronzeKnee wrote:On November 20 2012 03:03 Torte de Lini wrote:
Females sit uncomfortably on a double-edged sword where they cannot be proud of their gender... The gender "female" is synonymous with the lesser in all major languages. You throw like a girl, you hit like a girl, you cried like a little girl, don't get your panties in a bunch... or perhaps my favorite, when GJ Jane says "suck my cock" perhaps the ultimate insult to women in a movie that was trying to show women can be strong. When she said that, she was implying that she had become powerful because she had a penis, not because she had a vagina. Sad how poorly society understands this huh? Sexism is ingrained in language. How could women be proud of what we have made women into? How does this sexism theory of yours account for you're a dick not being a compliment? Is you jump like an elephant an expression of elephant discrimination? I really hope your defense of a sexism-riddled language isn't that we still use male genitalia to insult people.
Well, that's not necessarily a hard mistake to make. At a superficial level, using "you're a dick" to insult people would seem congruent with using "you're a bitch" to insult people. They aren't actually the same, though. Calling a man a "bitch" or a "pussy" is to degrade him by emasculating him; that is, to show him as lacking some fundamental masculine quality. Calling him a "dick" doesn't have that effect.
Also, regardless of what I just said, the fact that the term "you're a dick" is still present in our day-to-day language does not negate the claim that sexism is ingrained in language. In fact, I would cite that as further evidence.
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I think that people consistently miss the point that exposure to female role models can lead to an increased player base. Even if you're of the belief that pretending discrimination doesn't exist is the only way to make it not actually exist, you have to acknowledge the purely practical role of expanding esports by appealing to a lesser-exploited demographic.
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On September 05 2013 14:03 Pontius Pirate wrote:
I think that people consistently miss the point that exposure to female role models can lead to an increased player base. Even if you're of the belief that pretending discrimination doesn't exist is the only way to make it not actually exist, you have to acknowledge the purely practical role of expanding esports by appealing to a lesser-exploited demographic.
ding ding ding we have a winner (:
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I think it would be nice to have both Male and Female leagues, but also leagues with both.
Like....say I league(Just an example) that would have both Male and Female divisions, and then a bonus tournament with them mixed(Like, top 8 of each).
But, now that I sit and think about it, it would end up a lot of "SEE! <Gender> IS BETTER THAN <Gender>!!!!!" and might not help anything..
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Counter-Strike has a male and female league, but the issue of comparison never comes up
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On September 05 2013 15:15 Torte de Lini wrote:
Counter-Strike has a male and female league, but the issue of comparison never comes up
Counter strike itself never really comes up anymore 
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On September 05 2013 14:03 Pontius Pirate wrote:
I think that people consistently miss the point that exposure to female role models can lead to an increased player base. Even if you're of the belief that pretending discrimination doesn't exist is the only way to make it not actually exist, you have to acknowledge the purely practical role of expanding esports by appealing to a lesser-exploited demographic.
^That.
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On September 05 2013 15:23 QuackPocketDuck wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2013 15:15 Torte de Lini wrote:
Counter-Strike has a male and female league, but the issue of comparison never comes up Counter strike itself never really comes up anymore
they nailed down some pretty important things,.
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On September 05 2013 15:15 Torte de Lini wrote:
Counter-Strike has a male and female league, but the issue of comparison never comes up
I don't know about germany, but here in Denmark, there is DEFINATLY a comparison between male and female gamers, also in counterstrike.
At Copenhagen Games 2013 we had a female only CS tourney, and everyone looking at them agreed on that it was not their skills that made them watch, as the male gamers far outskilled them.
on thread topic:
Theres nothing thats holding women back from being as good as men in gaming. Personally i think males tend to take it more seriously and work harder for it, kinda like how korean sc2 players are better than most EU players.
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EPT
