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Theres nothing thats holding women back from being as good as men in gaming. Personally i think males tend to take it more seriously and work harder for it, kinda like how korean sc2 players are better than most EU players.
This is incorrect. There isn't any evidence that shows men taking it more seriously than women, you're making an assumption based on the current situation (which is a result of many things). Hence why comparison is just wrong in these gender issues.
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On September 05 2013 16:54 Torte de Lini wrote:Show nested quote +
Theres nothing thats holding women back from being as good as men in gaming. Personally i think males tend to take it more seriously and work harder for it, kinda like how korean sc2 players are better than most EU players.
This is incorrect. There isn't any evidence that shows men taking it more seriously than women, you're making an assumption based on the current situation (which is a result of many things). Hence why comparison is just wrong in these gender issues.
What is there to hold females gamers back from being as good as male gamers, besides effort?
And how is it even a "gender issue" that men perform better than women in esport?
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On September 05 2013 17:28 cloneThorN wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2013 16:54 Torte de Lini wrote:
Theres nothing thats holding women back from being as good as men in gaming. Personally i think males tend to take it more seriously and work harder for it, kinda like how korean sc2 players are better than most EU players.
This is incorrect. There isn't any evidence that shows men taking it more seriously than women, you're making an assumption based on the current situation (which is a result of many things). Hence why comparison is just wrong in these gender issues. What is there to hold females gamers back from being as good as male gamers, besides effort? And how is it even a "gender issue" that men perform better than women in esport?
Maybe its just statistics.(and/or women are wired in such a way that they are worse in sc then man on average)
If say 1 in 10.000 people can make pro level, and 1 in 100.000 people can become a pro champion, then with 2million man playing you have 200 pros and 20 champions, with 10k women playing you then have 1 women at pro level and no champions.
Female league can motivate and attrackt more female players but i think the effects of it will be extremely small because females already have to go well out of their normal average behaviour to start playing in the first place, they already must have a huge motivation. In chess there are female leagues but they didnt succeed in making more women play chess at all. Though i do think women deserve their own events and championships to at least reward them in some way for their achievements, i dont think this will lead to more female players.
It might increase the male player base though lol, but then its for the wrong reasons.
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On September 05 2013 17:54 Rassy wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2013 17:28 cloneThorN wrote:On September 05 2013 16:54 Torte de Lini wrote:
Theres nothing thats holding women back from being as good as men in gaming. Personally i think males tend to take it more seriously and work harder for it, kinda like how korean sc2 players are better than most EU players.
This is incorrect. There isn't any evidence that shows men taking it more seriously than women, you're making an assumption based on the current situation (which is a result of many things). Hence why comparison is just wrong in these gender issues. What is there to hold females gamers back from being as good as male gamers, besides effort? And how is it even a "gender issue" that men perform better than women in esport? Maybe its just statistics. If say 1 in 10.000 people can make pro level, and 1 in 100.000 people can become a pro champion, then with 2million man playing you have 200 pros and 20 champions, with 10k women playing you then have 1 women at pro level and no champions. Female league can motivate and attrackt more female players but i think the effects of it will be extremely small because females already have to go well out of their normal average behaviour to start playing in the first place, they already must have a huge motivation. In chess there are female leagues but they didnt succeed in making more women play chess at all. Though i do think women deserve their own events and championships to at least reward them in some way for their achievements, i dont think this will lead to more female players. It might increase the male player base though lol, but then its for the wrong reasons.
Wheres the achivement in defeating a lesser caste of players? Gongratz, you are the best of the worst.. what?
I would personally see it as an insult if people made an entire tournament of weak players just so i could win...
Also, what is this "normal behavior" that you think females all share? Something along the lines of males always wanting to to play football?
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On September 05 2013 17:28 cloneThorN wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2013 16:54 Torte de Lini wrote:
Theres nothing thats holding women back from being as good as men in gaming. Personally i think males tend to take it more seriously and work harder for it, kinda like how korean sc2 players are better than most EU players.
This is incorrect. There isn't any evidence that shows men taking it more seriously than women, you're making an assumption based on the current situation (which is a result of many things). Hence why comparison is just wrong in these gender issues. What is there to hold females gamers back from being as good as male gamers, besides effort? And how is it even a "gender issue" that men perform better than women in esport?
You're cherry-picking. You're saying men perform better than women in eSport based on their achievements (and women's lack thereof), but you don't also weigh how many men don't achieve compare to women.
Why is that? Stop comparing.
I'm not asking to actually do it, I'm stating that the constant comparison is faulty and can't be actually applied to make arguments.
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On September 05 2013 18:02 Torte de Lini wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2013 17:28 cloneThorN wrote:On September 05 2013 16:54 Torte de Lini wrote:
Theres nothing thats holding women back from being as good as men in gaming. Personally i think males tend to take it more seriously and work harder for it, kinda like how korean sc2 players are better than most EU players.
This is incorrect. There isn't any evidence that shows men taking it more seriously than women, you're making an assumption based on the current situation (which is a result of many things). Hence why comparison is just wrong in these gender issues. What is there to hold females gamers back from being as good as male gamers, besides effort? And how is it even a "gender issue" that men perform better than women in esport? You're cherry-picking. You're saying men perform better than women in eSport based on their achievements (and women's lack thereof), but you don't also weigh how many men don't achieve compare to women. Why is that? Stop comparing.
I'm comparing becausea bigger player pool does not mean better top players.
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On September 05 2013 18:01 cloneThorN wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2013 17:54 Rassy wrote:On September 05 2013 17:28 cloneThorN wrote:On September 05 2013 16:54 Torte de Lini wrote:
Theres nothing thats holding women back from being as good as men in gaming. Personally i think males tend to take it more seriously and work harder for it, kinda like how korean sc2 players are better than most EU players.
This is incorrect. There isn't any evidence that shows men taking it more seriously than women, you're making an assumption based on the current situation (which is a result of many things). Hence why comparison is just wrong in these gender issues. What is there to hold females gamers back from being as good as male gamers, besides effort? And how is it even a "gender issue" that men perform better than women in esport? Maybe its just statistics. If say 1 in 10.000 people can make pro level, and 1 in 100.000 people can become a pro champion, then with 2million man playing you have 200 pros and 20 champions, with 10k women playing you then have 1 women at pro level and no champions. Female league can motivate and attrackt more female players but i think the effects of it will be extremely small because females already have to go well out of their normal average behaviour to start playing in the first place, they already must have a huge motivation. In chess there are female leagues but they didnt succeed in making more women play chess at all. Though i do think women deserve their own events and championships to at least reward them in some way for their achievements, i dont think this will lead to more female players. It might increase the male player base though lol, but then its for the wrong reasons. Wheres the achivement in defeating a lesser caste of players? Gongratz, you are the best of the worst.. what? I would personally see it as an insult if people made an entire tournament of weak players just so i could win... Also, what is this "normal behavior" that you think females all share? Something along the lines of males always wanting to to play football?
We're not highlighting who is the best of a certain class of players, we're highlight minority genders for participating: thus opening up more interested groups and widening the popularity of our eSport.
On September 05 2013 18:04 cloneThorN wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2013 18:02 Torte de Lini wrote:On September 05 2013 17:28 cloneThorN wrote:On September 05 2013 16:54 Torte de Lini wrote:
Theres nothing thats holding women back from being as good as men in gaming. Personally i think males tend to take it more seriously and work harder for it, kinda like how korean sc2 players are better than most EU players.
This is incorrect. There isn't any evidence that shows men taking it more seriously than women, you're making an assumption based on the current situation (which is a result of many things). Hence why comparison is just wrong in these gender issues. What is there to hold females gamers back from being as good as male gamers, besides effort? And how is it even a "gender issue" that men perform better than women in esport? You're cherry-picking. You're saying men perform better than women in eSport based on their achievements (and women's lack thereof), but you don't also weigh how many men don't achieve compare to women. Why is that? Stop comparing. I'm comparing because number of players does not equal more skilled ones.
No one said that lol You're fighting yourself.
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On September 05 2013 18:05 Torte de Lini wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2013 18:01 cloneThorN wrote:On September 05 2013 17:54 Rassy wrote:On September 05 2013 17:28 cloneThorN wrote:On September 05 2013 16:54 Torte de Lini wrote:
Theres nothing thats holding women back from being as good as men in gaming. Personally i think males tend to take it more seriously and work harder for it, kinda like how korean sc2 players are better than most EU players.
This is incorrect. There isn't any evidence that shows men taking it more seriously than women, you're making an assumption based on the current situation (which is a result of many things). Hence why comparison is just wrong in these gender issues. What is there to hold females gamers back from being as good as male gamers, besides effort? And how is it even a "gender issue" that men perform better than women in esport? Maybe its just statistics. If say 1 in 10.000 people can make pro level, and 1 in 100.000 people can become a pro champion, then with 2million man playing you have 200 pros and 20 champions, with 10k women playing you then have 1 women at pro level and no champions. Female league can motivate and attrackt more female players but i think the effects of it will be extremely small because females already have to go well out of their normal average behaviour to start playing in the first place, they already must have a huge motivation. In chess there are female leagues but they didnt succeed in making more women play chess at all. Though i do think women deserve their own events and championships to at least reward them in some way for their achievements, i dont think this will lead to more female players. It might increase the male player base though lol, but then its for the wrong reasons. Wheres the achivement in defeating a lesser caste of players? Gongratz, you are the best of the worst.. what? I would personally see it as an insult if people made an entire tournament of weak players just so i could win... Also, what is this "normal behavior" that you think females all share? Something along the lines of males always wanting to to play football? We're not highlighting who is the best of a certain class of players, we're highlight minority genders for participating: thus opening up more interested groups and widening the popularity of our eSport.
From the past, chess history among other things, we can deduce that female leagues or other minority leagues does infact NOT help for shizzle. All it does is further isolate the minority, and thus "giving" them their achivements.
Would you want to be a pro in a sport that see you as an inferior caste of player, to the point of where they make a "special" tournament for you?
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No one's talking about bringing attention to females being the best of all or best of their class.
That's you and what you're arguing about when they are neither the goal of what we are suggesting nor of our arguments.
You're literally arguing with yourself about something no one else is talking about.
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On September 05 2013 18:05 Torte de Lini wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2013 18:01 cloneThorN wrote:On September 05 2013 17:54 Rassy wrote:On September 05 2013 17:28 cloneThorN wrote:On September 05 2013 16:54 Torte de Lini wrote:
Theres nothing thats holding women back from being as good as men in gaming. Personally i think males tend to take it more seriously and work harder for it, kinda like how korean sc2 players are better than most EU players.
This is incorrect. There isn't any evidence that shows men taking it more seriously than women, you're making an assumption based on the current situation (which is a result of many things). Hence why comparison is just wrong in these gender issues. What is there to hold females gamers back from being as good as male gamers, besides effort? And how is it even a "gender issue" that men perform better than women in esport? Maybe its just statistics. If say 1 in 10.000 people can make pro level, and 1 in 100.000 people can become a pro champion, then with 2million man playing you have 200 pros and 20 champions, with 10k women playing you then have 1 women at pro level and no champions. Female league can motivate and attrackt more female players but i think the effects of it will be extremely small because females already have to go well out of their normal average behaviour to start playing in the first place, they already must have a huge motivation. In chess there are female leagues but they didnt succeed in making more women play chess at all. Though i do think women deserve their own events and championships to at least reward them in some way for their achievements, i dont think this will lead to more female players. It might increase the male player base though lol, but then its for the wrong reasons. Wheres the achivement in defeating a lesser caste of players? Gongratz, you are the best of the worst.. what? I would personally see it as an insult if people made an entire tournament of weak players just so i could win... Also, what is this "normal behavior" that you think females all share? Something along the lines of males always wanting to to play football? We're not highlighting who is the best of a certain class of players, we're highlight minority genders for participating: thus opening up more interested groups and widening the popularity of our eSport. Show nested quote +On September 05 2013 18:04 cloneThorN wrote:On September 05 2013 18:02 Torte de Lini wrote:On September 05 2013 17:28 cloneThorN wrote:On September 05 2013 16:54 Torte de Lini wrote:
Theres nothing thats holding women back from being as good as men in gaming. Personally i think males tend to take it more seriously and work harder for it, kinda like how korean sc2 players are better than most EU players.
This is incorrect. There isn't any evidence that shows men taking it more seriously than women, you're making an assumption based on the current situation (which is a result of many things). Hence why comparison is just wrong in these gender issues. What is there to hold females gamers back from being as good as male gamers, besides effort? And how is it even a "gender issue" that men perform better than women in esport? You're cherry-picking. You're saying men perform better than women in eSport based on their achievements (and women's lack thereof), but you don't also weigh how many men don't achieve compare to women. Why is that? Stop comparing. I'm comparing because number of players does not equal more skilled ones. No one said that lol You're fighting yourself.
It's the exact thing you wrote, maybe you meant otherwise, but thats what anyonewould interprent by reading the post i quoted,
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On September 05 2013 18:08 cloneThorN wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2013 18:05 Torte de Lini wrote:On September 05 2013 18:01 cloneThorN wrote:On September 05 2013 17:54 Rassy wrote:On September 05 2013 17:28 cloneThorN wrote:On September 05 2013 16:54 Torte de Lini wrote:
Theres nothing thats holding women back from being as good as men in gaming. Personally i think males tend to take it more seriously and work harder for it, kinda like how korean sc2 players are better than most EU players.
This is incorrect. There isn't any evidence that shows men taking it more seriously than women, you're making an assumption based on the current situation (which is a result of many things). Hence why comparison is just wrong in these gender issues. What is there to hold females gamers back from being as good as male gamers, besides effort? And how is it even a "gender issue" that men perform better than women in esport? Maybe its just statistics. If say 1 in 10.000 people can make pro level, and 1 in 100.000 people can become a pro champion, then with 2million man playing you have 200 pros and 20 champions, with 10k women playing you then have 1 women at pro level and no champions. Female league can motivate and attrackt more female players but i think the effects of it will be extremely small because females already have to go well out of their normal average behaviour to start playing in the first place, they already must have a huge motivation. In chess there are female leagues but they didnt succeed in making more women play chess at all. Though i do think women deserve their own events and championships to at least reward them in some way for their achievements, i dont think this will lead to more female players. It might increase the male player base though lol, but then its for the wrong reasons. Wheres the achivement in defeating a lesser caste of players? Gongratz, you are the best of the worst.. what? I would personally see it as an insult if people made an entire tournament of weak players just so i could win... Also, what is this "normal behavior" that you think females all share? Something along the lines of males always wanting to to play football? We're not highlighting who is the best of a certain class of players, we're highlight minority genders for participating: thus opening up more interested groups and widening the popularity of our eSport. From the past, chess history among other things, we can deduce that female leagues or other minority leagues does infact NOT help for shizzle. All it does is further isolate the minority, and thus "giving" them their achivements. Would you want to be a pro in a sport that see you as an inferior caste of player, to the point of where they make a "special" tournament for you?
Creating minority idols further spurs interest from classes of people they are related to. WNBA and Women's Soccer spurs role-models for women to participate and be active in organized sports. Widening the popularity of the sport as spectators and active participants.
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On September 05 2013 18:09 cloneThorN wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2013 18:05 Torte de Lini wrote:On September 05 2013 18:01 cloneThorN wrote:On September 05 2013 17:54 Rassy wrote:On September 05 2013 17:28 cloneThorN wrote:On September 05 2013 16:54 Torte de Lini wrote:
Theres nothing thats holding women back from being as good as men in gaming. Personally i think males tend to take it more seriously and work harder for it, kinda like how korean sc2 players are better than most EU players.
This is incorrect. There isn't any evidence that shows men taking it more seriously than women, you're making an assumption based on the current situation (which is a result of many things). Hence why comparison is just wrong in these gender issues. What is there to hold females gamers back from being as good as male gamers, besides effort? And how is it even a "gender issue" that men perform better than women in esport? Maybe its just statistics. If say 1 in 10.000 people can make pro level, and 1 in 100.000 people can become a pro champion, then with 2million man playing you have 200 pros and 20 champions, with 10k women playing you then have 1 women at pro level and no champions. Female league can motivate and attrackt more female players but i think the effects of it will be extremely small because females already have to go well out of their normal average behaviour to start playing in the first place, they already must have a huge motivation. In chess there are female leagues but they didnt succeed in making more women play chess at all. Though i do think women deserve their own events and championships to at least reward them in some way for their achievements, i dont think this will lead to more female players. It might increase the male player base though lol, but then its for the wrong reasons. Wheres the achivement in defeating a lesser caste of players? Gongratz, you are the best of the worst.. what? I would personally see it as an insult if people made an entire tournament of weak players just so i could win... Also, what is this "normal behavior" that you think females all share? Something along the lines of males always wanting to to play football? We're not highlighting who is the best of a certain class of players, we're highlight minority genders for participating: thus opening up more interested groups and widening the popularity of our eSport. On September 05 2013 18:04 cloneThorN wrote:On September 05 2013 18:02 Torte de Lini wrote:On September 05 2013 17:28 cloneThorN wrote:On September 05 2013 16:54 Torte de Lini wrote:
Theres nothing thats holding women back from being as good as men in gaming. Personally i think males tend to take it more seriously and work harder for it, kinda like how korean sc2 players are better than most EU players.
This is incorrect. There isn't any evidence that shows men taking it more seriously than women, you're making an assumption based on the current situation (which is a result of many things). Hence why comparison is just wrong in these gender issues. What is there to hold females gamers back from being as good as male gamers, besides effort? And how is it even a "gender issue" that men perform better than women in esport? You're cherry-picking. You're saying men perform better than women in eSport based on their achievements (and women's lack thereof), but you don't also weigh how many men don't achieve compare to women. Why is that? Stop comparing. I'm comparing because number of players does not equal more skilled ones. No one said that lol You're fighting yourself. It's the exact thing you wrote, maybe you meant otherwise, but thats what anyonewould interprent by reading the post i quoted,
Read the article then, it's a more expansive idea of what I'm saying here lol
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On September 05 2013 18:08 Torte de Lini wrote:
No one's talking about bringing attention to females being the best of all or best of their class.
That's you and what you're arguing about when they are neither the goal of what we are suggesting nor of our arguments.
You're literally arguing with yourself about something no one else is talking about.
No, i'm arguing against the concept of female only leagues, as they are damaging to the very players you wanna help by making them.
I'm not even talking about brining them attention, i'm literally arguing that no attention should be on this "issue" at all, since it's not an issue to begin with.
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On September 05 2013 18:11 cloneThorN wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2013 18:08 Torte de Lini wrote:
No one's talking about bringing attention to females being the best of all or best of their class.
That's you and what you're arguing about when they are neither the goal of what we are suggesting nor of our arguments.
You're literally arguing with yourself about something no one else is talking about. No, i'm arguing against the concept of female only leagues, as they are damaging to the very players you wanna help by making them. I'm not even talking about brining them attention, i'm literally arguing that no attention should be on this "issue" at all, since it's not an issue to begin with.
There is no harm in doing it, in fact; it only furthers the ultimate goal of eSports as a growing subculture.
Which is the whole summary of all my topics: the analysis of eSports as a growing subculture. It's the slogan on the website lol
Not sure how offering more opportunities other groups of people, similar to geographic regions, is damaging and the result being negligible (it's not)
Your argument's basis is something no one is talking about. The perception that winning in a women's league is detrimental because its somehow comparatively inferior.
1. Comparisons are, by default, slanted and skewed poorly because of the sizes
2. That's not the goal and your personal perception based on point #1: the comparison that isn't right to be done at all.
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On September 05 2013 18:10 Torte de Lini wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2013 18:08 cloneThorN wrote:On September 05 2013 18:05 Torte de Lini wrote:On September 05 2013 18:01 cloneThorN wrote:On September 05 2013 17:54 Rassy wrote:On September 05 2013 17:28 cloneThorN wrote:On September 05 2013 16:54 Torte de Lini wrote:
Theres nothing thats holding women back from being as good as men in gaming. Personally i think males tend to take it more seriously and work harder for it, kinda like how korean sc2 players are better than most EU players.
This is incorrect. There isn't any evidence that shows men taking it more seriously than women, you're making an assumption based on the current situation (which is a result of many things). Hence why comparison is just wrong in these gender issues. What is there to hold females gamers back from being as good as male gamers, besides effort? And how is it even a "gender issue" that men perform better than women in esport? Maybe its just statistics. If say 1 in 10.000 people can make pro level, and 1 in 100.000 people can become a pro champion, then with 2million man playing you have 200 pros and 20 champions, with 10k women playing you then have 1 women at pro level and no champions. Female league can motivate and attrackt more female players but i think the effects of it will be extremely small because females already have to go well out of their normal average behaviour to start playing in the first place, they already must have a huge motivation. In chess there are female leagues but they didnt succeed in making more women play chess at all. Though i do think women deserve their own events and championships to at least reward them in some way for their achievements, i dont think this will lead to more female players. It might increase the male player base though lol, but then its for the wrong reasons. Wheres the achivement in defeating a lesser caste of players? Gongratz, you are the best of the worst.. what? I would personally see it as an insult if people made an entire tournament of weak players just so i could win... Also, what is this "normal behavior" that you think females all share? Something along the lines of males always wanting to to play football? We're not highlighting who is the best of a certain class of players, we're highlight minority genders for participating: thus opening up more interested groups and widening the popularity of our eSport. From the past, chess history among other things, we can deduce that female leagues or other minority leagues does infact NOT help for shizzle. All it does is further isolate the minority, and thus "giving" them their achivements. Would you want to be a pro in a sport that see you as an inferior caste of player, to the point of where they make a "special" tournament for you? Creating minority idols further spurs interest from classes of people they are related to. WNBA and Women's Soccer spurs role-models for women to participate and be active in organized sports. Widening the popularity of the sport as spectators and active participants.
Be honest here. Why do you think people watch WNBA? Or Women's Soccer? Or Women's handball?
Physical sport is a place where males will always dominate because of their superior body. Hence the female leagues will always be niche things.
In esport, no such thing are holding you back from becomming good.
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On September 05 2013 18:14 cloneThorN wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2013 18:10 Torte de Lini wrote:On September 05 2013 18:08 cloneThorN wrote:On September 05 2013 18:05 Torte de Lini wrote:On September 05 2013 18:01 cloneThorN wrote:On September 05 2013 17:54 Rassy wrote:On September 05 2013 17:28 cloneThorN wrote:On September 05 2013 16:54 Torte de Lini wrote:
Theres nothing thats holding women back from being as good as men in gaming. Personally i think males tend to take it more seriously and work harder for it, kinda like how korean sc2 players are better than most EU players.
This is incorrect. There isn't any evidence that shows men taking it more seriously than women, you're making an assumption based on the current situation (which is a result of many things). Hence why comparison is just wrong in these gender issues. What is there to hold females gamers back from being as good as male gamers, besides effort? And how is it even a "gender issue" that men perform better than women in esport? Maybe its just statistics. If say 1 in 10.000 people can make pro level, and 1 in 100.000 people can become a pro champion, then with 2million man playing you have 200 pros and 20 champions, with 10k women playing you then have 1 women at pro level and no champions. Female league can motivate and attrackt more female players but i think the effects of it will be extremely small because females already have to go well out of their normal average behaviour to start playing in the first place, they already must have a huge motivation. In chess there are female leagues but they didnt succeed in making more women play chess at all. Though i do think women deserve their own events and championships to at least reward them in some way for their achievements, i dont think this will lead to more female players. It might increase the male player base though lol, but then its for the wrong reasons. Wheres the achivement in defeating a lesser caste of players? Gongratz, you are the best of the worst.. what? I would personally see it as an insult if people made an entire tournament of weak players just so i could win... Also, what is this "normal behavior" that you think females all share? Something along the lines of males always wanting to to play football? We're not highlighting who is the best of a certain class of players, we're highlight minority genders for participating: thus opening up more interested groups and widening the popularity of our eSport. From the past, chess history among other things, we can deduce that female leagues or other minority leagues does infact NOT help for shizzle. All it does is further isolate the minority, and thus "giving" them their achivements. Would you want to be a pro in a sport that see you as an inferior caste of player, to the point of where they make a "special" tournament for you? Creating minority idols further spurs interest from classes of people they are related to. WNBA and Women's Soccer spurs role-models for women to participate and be active in organized sports. Widening the popularity of the sport as spectators and active participants. Be honest here. Why do you think people watch WNBA? Or Women's Soccer? Or Women's handball? Physical sport is a place where males will always dominate because of their superior body. Hence the female leagues will always be niche things. In esport, no such thing are holding you back from becoming good.
The goals are the same.
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On September 05 2013 18:14 Torte de Lini wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2013 18:11 cloneThorN wrote:On September 05 2013 18:08 Torte de Lini wrote:
No one's talking about bringing attention to females being the best of all or best of their class.
That's you and what you're arguing about when they are neither the goal of what we are suggesting nor of our arguments.
You're literally arguing with yourself about something no one else is talking about. No, i'm arguing against the concept of female only leagues, as they are damaging to the very players you wanna help by making them. I'm not even talking about brining them attention, i'm literally arguing that no attention should be on this "issue" at all, since it's not an issue to begin with. There is no harm in doing it, in fact; it only furthers the ultimate goal of eSports as a growing subculture. Which is the whole summary of all my topics: the analysis of eSports as a growing subculture. It's the slogan on the website lol Not sure how offering more opportunities other groups of people, similar to geographic regions, is damaging and the result being negligible (it's not)
Ok, so your ultimate goal is simply to bring more minorities into esport, by giving them easier tournaments they can participate in.
How exactly does that fit into the nature of sports of any kind, which is "Competetiveness"?
How are the minority players ever gonna evolve their skill, if they have have no need to?
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On September 05 2013 18:01 cloneThorN wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2013 17:54 Rassy wrote:On September 05 2013 17:28 cloneThorN wrote:On September 05 2013 16:54 Torte de Lini wrote:
Theres nothing thats holding women back from being as good as men in gaming. Personally i think males tend to take it more seriously and work harder for it, kinda like how korean sc2 players are better than most EU players.
This is incorrect. There isn't any evidence that shows men taking it more seriously than women, you're making an assumption based on the current situation (which is a result of many things). Hence why comparison is just wrong in these gender issues. What is there to hold females gamers back from being as good as male gamers, besides effort? And how is it even a "gender issue" that men perform better than women in esport? Maybe its just statistics. If say 1 in 10.000 people can make pro level, and 1 in 100.000 people can become a pro champion, then with 2million man playing you have 200 pros and 20 champions, with 10k women playing you then have 1 women at pro level and no champions. Female league can motivate and attrackt more female players but i think the effects of it will be extremely small because females already have to go well out of their normal average behaviour to start playing in the first place, they already must have a huge motivation. In chess there are female leagues but they didnt succeed in making more women play chess at all. Though i do think women deserve their own events and championships to at least reward them in some way for their achievements, i dont think this will lead to more female players. It might increase the male player base though lol, but then its for the wrong reasons. Wheres the achivement in defeating a lesser caste of players? Gongratz, you are the best of the worst.. what? I would personally see it as an insult if people made an entire tournament of weak players just so i could win... Also, what is this "normal behavior" that you think females all share? Something along the lines of males always wanting to to play football?
Ya something along that line,
Its not realy a secret that verry few women play games and that manny guys like to play football. Off course this does not go always and for everyone... but for the population in general as a whole.
There are female leagues in nearly all sports, and their league beeing weaker doesnt realy deter the women from competing in for example tennis or cycling and they dont see it as an insult to have a league for themselves.
Its realy silly to see it as an insult imo.
Having said that, i repeat that i think making female sc championships and promote them wont lead to manny more female players (wich is one of the goals mentioned) it has not realy worked that way in other sports where females are hugely under represented. Its still a good idea though i think but for the reason to reward thoose female players, not for increasing their numbers.
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On September 05 2013 18:16 Torte de Lini wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2013 18:14 cloneThorN wrote:On September 05 2013 18:10 Torte de Lini wrote:On September 05 2013 18:08 cloneThorN wrote:On September 05 2013 18:05 Torte de Lini wrote:On September 05 2013 18:01 cloneThorN wrote:On September 05 2013 17:54 Rassy wrote:On September 05 2013 17:28 cloneThorN wrote:On September 05 2013 16:54 Torte de Lini wrote:
Theres nothing thats holding women back from being as good as men in gaming. Personally i think males tend to take it more seriously and work harder for it, kinda like how korean sc2 players are better than most EU players.
This is incorrect. There isn't any evidence that shows men taking it more seriously than women, you're making an assumption based on the current situation (which is a result of many things). Hence why comparison is just wrong in these gender issues. What is there to hold females gamers back from being as good as male gamers, besides effort? And how is it even a "gender issue" that men perform better than women in esport? Maybe its just statistics. If say 1 in 10.000 people can make pro level, and 1 in 100.000 people can become a pro champion, then with 2million man playing you have 200 pros and 20 champions, with 10k women playing you then have 1 women at pro level and no champions. Female league can motivate and attrackt more female players but i think the effects of it will be extremely small because females already have to go well out of their normal average behaviour to start playing in the first place, they already must have a huge motivation. In chess there are female leagues but they didnt succeed in making more women play chess at all. Though i do think women deserve their own events and championships to at least reward them in some way for their achievements, i dont think this will lead to more female players. It might increase the male player base though lol, but then its for the wrong reasons. Wheres the achivement in defeating a lesser caste of players? Gongratz, you are the best of the worst.. what? I would personally see it as an insult if people made an entire tournament of weak players just so i could win... Also, what is this "normal behavior" that you think females all share? Something along the lines of males always wanting to to play football? We're not highlighting who is the best of a certain class of players, we're highlight minority genders for participating: thus opening up more interested groups and widening the popularity of our eSport. From the past, chess history among other things, we can deduce that female leagues or other minority leagues does infact NOT help for shizzle. All it does is further isolate the minority, and thus "giving" them their achivements. Would you want to be a pro in a sport that see you as an inferior caste of player, to the point of where they make a "special" tournament for you? Creating minority idols further spurs interest from classes of people they are related to. WNBA and Women's Soccer spurs role-models for women to participate and be active in organized sports. Widening the popularity of the sport as spectators and active participants. Be honest here. Why do you think people watch WNBA? Or Women's Soccer? Or Women's handball? Physical sport is a place where males will always dominate because of their superior body. Hence the female leagues will always be niche things. In esport, no such thing are holding you back from becoming good. The goals are the same.
The goals of male physical sport, is to crown the best players in the world.
The goals of female physical sport, is to crown the best female players in the world.
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On September 05 2013 18:18 cloneThorN wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2013 18:14 Torte de Lini wrote:On September 05 2013 18:11 cloneThorN wrote:On September 05 2013 18:08 Torte de Lini wrote:
No one's talking about bringing attention to females being the best of all or best of their class.
That's you and what you're arguing about when they are neither the goal of what we are suggesting nor of our arguments.
You're literally arguing with yourself about something no one else is talking about. No, i'm arguing against the concept of female only leagues, as they are damaging to the very players you wanna help by making them. I'm not even talking about brining them attention, i'm literally arguing that no attention should be on this "issue" at all, since it's not an issue to begin with. There is no harm in doing it, in fact; it only furthers the ultimate goal of eSports as a growing subculture. Which is the whole summary of all my topics: the analysis of eSports as a growing subculture. It's the slogan on the website lol Not sure how offering more opportunities other groups of people, similar to geographic regions, is damaging and the result being negligible (it's not) Ok, so your ultimate goal is simply to bring more minorities into esport, by giving them easier tournaments they can participate in. How exactly does that fit into the nature of sports of any kind, which is "Competetiveness"? How are the minority players ever gonna evolve their skill, if they have have no need to?
No, it's to expand the popularity and growth of eSports by offering different sets of competitors people can relate to and also exposing regional/gender heroes.
Competition is a frame set by anyone. Little leagues a leagues or competitions regardless how "lesser" they are to full-grown males. It achieves the idea fair play, competition and local activity (or national)/popularity of said sport.
No one's talking about the evolution of skill or the capabilities that females can achieve just as highly as males. I never make that argument and never will touch on the subject as a whole.
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EPT
