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On October 31 2012 21:48 Martijn wrote:
It's pretty easy to approach the people at ESL. Have any of the pros that posted tried just directly asking? There should at least be an open line of communication between the players and the league. We'd at least get more of an idea of what the problem is that way.
No. Not a single player in last 3 years had the idea to ask for his money. Oo
The problem is most likley they will pay goody now and all the guys who still waiting for small wins have to wait on.
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On October 31 2012 20:26 Gr33d wrote:
Its 2012. There is no NEED anymore for expensive studios to broadcast matches.
The german EPS is pretty low priority nowadays, so maybe the teams should start their own league. Just look at ESC, Alternate or Mouz. They have pretty much all the big names in the german scene under contract, like Socke,Hasu,Darkforce,Goody or Cloud.
Sponsor a own league, boycott the EPS, provide money that gets paid much faster and the other known players will follow. Now that TaKe is independant they can even hire him for the casting/production and their audience would not be smaller, as he provides the german casting for EPS anyway.
With a much better (maybe even bigger?) tournament they would even have a improved way to show off their sponsors.
The situation in germany because of the casting and "gaminghouse" provides by TaKe is so good (the players visit him often anyway) that its a shame its not used to its full potential in such circumstances.
Agreed! Lets have Take, the players, and their teams, bring forth a new era of central european gaming! :D Seriously great idea these people should talk.
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On October 31 2012 21:51 skeldark wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2012 21:48 Martijn wrote:
It's pretty easy to approach the people at ESL. Have any of the pros that posted tried just directly asking? There should at least be an open line of communication between the players and the league. We'd at least get more of an idea of what the problem is that way. No. Not a single player in last 3 years had the idea to ask for his money. Oo The problem is most likley they will pay goody now and all the guys who still waiting for small wins have to wait on.
Obviously some conversations have occurred, but you'd be surprised -_- Players hate dealing with that kind of shit in general. Players and ESL at least need to establish a conversation if we're looking to get anywhere.
Point is, where is the response? Are they just straight up being ignored? Do they not know/is it unclear who to talk to? Why haven't we heard anything about what ESL has been telling them all this time. Personally (and just in my experience) I can reach people at ESL within a day, much easier than for instance DH where staff is usually insanely busy.
Fact is, GoOdy's timing is less than ideal. It would've been much more convincing if he had done this before his r1 game, or even after a win. Now I know ESL takes forever to pay out (it was my understanding things were improving though), so I don't doubt what he said was true about still not getting paid. But it makes it sound more like an emotional decision than a rational one.
So who's going to step up and ask EPS Germany for their money? If they give poor excuses, we should know, if they have good reasons, we should know. Not because they have some kind of obligation to us, but because outbursts like this hurt their reputation and image is everything to leagues (without that, no sponsors).
By all means GoOdy would be better off posting more than just "they're not paying so I quit" to begin with.
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wall of text incoming 
Ive been thinking a lot and my conclusion from the annual statement is that they have money. They had almost 10 million total revenue in 2010 and 2 million injection of capital.
thats 12 million euro to spend and still they had a minus of 2 million. Where does all that money go?
They have to pay 3.3 million to their employees. maybe they accept not getting paid for a month, but if they dont pay longer than that, most of them will search another job and theyre gone. 8,7 millions. left.
All that money is spent on other operating expenses. they arent described in more detail but i guess paying rent for their office buildings is necessary otherwise they get kicked out. I guess -1 million. They have to rent their servers for their websites. Im not quite sure how expensive that would be for all of esl. i guess less than a million. that leaves about 7 million to host their venues. Rent the location, equipment, shipment of own equipment and everything around their venue.
The least priority have external employees and prize money. And from that 7 million theres not enough left to pay for that and theres still 2.8 millions of liabilities from past mismanagements. Take has mentioned on his stream that they bought a part of this chinese esports league for millions which is basically worthless.
An interesting point is that from those 2.8 millions theres only 0.3 million liabilities to financial institutes. because if you lend money from a bank you actually have to pay interest. If you owe money to players... well they¨re gonna be pissed but in the end they do nothing and accept the situation. because what can a single player do? Ive worked in a business as a controller and they had problems too. i know that its part of the business policy of many companies with liquidity issues to pay external employees last. Its just cheaper than getting a loan.
So i think we should stop blaming esl. I think its time that the players do something about it together. As long as there are no consequences, nothing will happen. because if goody quits eps alone... well who cares.. someone else will step in for him. Darkforce, Real, biphy, cloud or kaup gonna take his spot and be happy about it that they could advance easier.
This is not just a problem of esports. They have lockouts in the NBA all the time. What needs to happen is that the player step up and say, no we dont accept it anymore that our prize money has the lowest priority. If all EPS and EAS player work together and say, we wont play eps anymore unless all prize money is payed within 6 month, even if that means that nobody signs up for the EPS cup next week, then you can actually achieve something. Its about 32 players in the german eps who would have to agree on that. If you dont stand up for your interests, nobody will take you seriously. Thats part of getting professional too. To have something like a labour union for players. and if you are not willing to boycott one single eps cup, well then the issue can not be that bad and its your own fault that everythings gonna stay the same.
maybe its uncomfortable to step up and actually do something about it. maybe you piss off sponsors. but you have the support of the community, at least i would support it. Its actually not such a big deal to lend some money from a bank. You just have to pay interest then. But who likes to pay interest if they can prevent it? The point is they could pay. They just dont want to.
Many of you feel powerless, but i dont think you are. you just have to act together and have the balls to actually do something about it. I think esl would give up quite easily. and if not: just found your own league. The nba players are threatening with that too. Whats wrong with take as team manager of team alternate with all their players playing in eps founds his own german bundesliga with sponsors? i believe it is possible. You dont need fancy venues for millions of dollars. Takes apartement is all you need for awesome starcraft 2 action. What is esl actually doing better than a nice homestorycup?
well maybe you feel like i want to start a riot. but thats whats necessary to change the esl. if you arent willing to do so and everybody just accepts the situation and is secretely happy about goody quitting because now you have better chances in the eps yourself, well then its your own damn fault!
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actually... the solution is quite easy:
Get a lawyer and get the hell to court with it and also at least in germany you can just go to the police and press charges for free and the state will look into it.
In germany if someone can't pay for 3 years... it's just illegal and you have to go into administration/bankruptcy if you can't pay it's as simple as that.
No discussion and no drama. Clean simple.
I would have been in court with them after 2 month not paying...hey this is about money.
And maybe people don't realize it, but behaviour like this is ruining the complete professional esport scene because if no one is paying then what is the point of being a progamer.
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big problem if player who loves siege tanks slow play tells he waiting this long this must be only true cause he for sure have patience like no other but hell two years is to much 
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if this is a professional league the "professional" players should get themselves a lawyer like a real professional would do in his business.
still shame on you esl.
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On October 31 2012 23:10 SpikeStarcraft wrote:
Wall of text
Though I'm fully with you on having a united front for the players, instantly threatening a boycott would be silly. Get a list of players and what they're owed and present it to Carmac. He takes these things very seriously and will almost surely be able to give the players an idea on what went wrong and if/when they can expect to be paid. You'd at least establish clarity.
You know what the NHL strike did to me as someone who casually liked watching NHL? I found other things to do. Lockouts actively hurt and shrink the fanbase which is bad for the leagues and bad for the players. Players have alternatives, but only a select few German players manage to perform outside of Germany. The tier of players below the top is where this would hurt most seeming those won't get coverage elsewhere.
Lets not forget that there's months of negotiation before any of these lockouts occur in sports.
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everybody here in german knows how *** the ESL is..
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To have no delay in prize money has been our most important priority for a long time.
The ESL has paid out close to $11,500,000 since it started. We paid out $1,194,727 prize money this year, including current as well as outstanding prize money.
ESL does not operate on investment money, therefore the prize money gap cannot be closed instantly. While there are complaints, and for a few months there may still be some, we have reduced outstanding prize money by 50% in the last five months.
We plan to pay out another big chunk in the coming weeks (including most of what GoOdy was referring to).
I am very sorry for the inconvenience caused to the players. It’s the personal priority of mine to make sure the ESL Pro Series is on schedule with the prize money. This is what we are all working towards.
Best regards,
Bastian Veiser [ Product Manager ESL Pro Series ]
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what e bad press for ESL... I'm kinda speechless
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EPS sucks as a league anyway. Boring.
It´s always Goody, Hasu, Darkforce and Cloud playing over and over again. Watch them stream and helpt the players.
It´s also the right move to withdraw and not "get a lawyer" because the amount of money to fight about will be very low and it wont change a thing.
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On October 31 2012 23:24 Martijn wrote:Though I'm fully with you on having a united front for the players, instantly threatening a boycott would be silly. Get a list of players and what they're owed and present it to Carmac. He takes these things very seriously and will almost surely be able to give the players an idea on what went wrong and if/when they can expect to be paid. You'd at least establish clarity. You know what the NHL strike did to me as someone who casually liked watching NHL? I found other things to do. Lockouts actively hurt and shrink the fanbase which is bad for the leagues and bad for the players. Players have alternatives, but only a select few German players manage to perform outside of Germany. The tier of players below the top is where this would hurt most seeming those won't get coverage elsewhere. Lets not forget that there's months of negotiation before any of these lockouts occur in sports.
I've added a warning to my post about wall of text
Lockouts hurt the sport in the short term yes, but who likes to change? its more convenient to stay the same if you can. nobody likes change. And as long as theres someone who doesnt know how to defend himself, theres gonna be people who take advantage of it. Thats why its necessary to stand up and fight for the things you want. It might be bad in the short term, but in the long term it will change for the better.
and as you can see, goody quitting eps forced the Product Manager of the ESL Pro Series to register an account on teamliquid and publish his first post on the forum 15 minutes ago.
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On October 31 2012 23:24 Martijn wrote:
Though I'm fully with you on having a united front for the players, instantly threatening a boycott would be silly. Get a list of players and what they're owed and present it to Carmac. He takes these things very seriously and will almost surely be able to give the players an idea on what went wrong and if/when they can expect to be paid. You'd at least establish clarity.
First of all Carmac has nothing to do with the EPS. As far as i know he only handles the IEM stuff. Secondly if you look at the same thread from november 2011 he couldn't do anything to solve the problem. Nothing has changed since then and i don't see any reason why this should change now.
Don't get me wrong it's nice that the EPS Product Manager responds here. It's just not very convincing. It doesn't matter how much price money they paid out this year (probably from several years ago).
"Working on it" is just not enough and i say that with similar statements in mind from 1 year ago.
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On October 31 2012 23:55 SpikeStarcraft wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2012 23:24 Martijn wrote:On October 31 2012 23:10 SpikeStarcraft wrote:
Wall of text Though I'm fully with you on having a united front for the players, instantly threatening a boycott would be silly. Get a list of players and what they're owed and present it to Carmac. He takes these things very seriously and will almost surely be able to give the players an idea on what went wrong and if/when they can expect to be paid. You'd at least establish clarity. You know what the NHL strike did to me as someone who casually liked watching NHL? I found other things to do. Lockouts actively hurt and shrink the fanbase which is bad for the leagues and bad for the players. Players have alternatives, but only a select few German players manage to perform outside of Germany. The tier of players below the top is where this would hurt most seeming those won't get coverage elsewhere. Lets not forget that there's months of negotiation before any of these lockouts occur in sports. I've added a warning to my post about wall of text Lockouts hurt the sport in the short term yes, but who likes to change? its more convenient to stay the same if you can. nobody likes change. And as long as theres someone who doesnt know how to defend himself, theres gonna be people who take advantage of it. Thats why its necessary to stand up and fight for the things you want. It might be bad in the short term, but in the long term it will change for the better. and as you can see, goody quitting eps forced the Product Manager of the ESL Pro Series to register an account on teamliquid and publish his first post on the forum 15 minutes ago.
Remember, sc2 is dying *sheepish smirk* Jokes aside, we'd be foolish threatening some kind of lockout. eSports is experimental marketing for most companies that aren't directly involved in gaming, they'd run at the mention of lockouts.
GoOdy quiting forced nothing that he couldn't have achieved by just talking to ESL directly. Better yet, he'd have gotten a clearer answer if he did. You'll note that the post is little more than a variation of what Carmac posted a year ago with new numbers ;p
Edit: As for the wall of text thing, I just didn't want to quote the whole thing and have it take up a screen.
On November 01 2012 00:01 OrbitalPlane wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2012 23:24 Martijn wrote:
Though I'm fully with you on having a united front for the players, instantly threatening a boycott would be silly. Get a list of players and what they're owed and present it to Carmac. He takes these things very seriously and will almost surely be able to give the players an idea on what went wrong and if/when they can expect to be paid. You'd at least establish clarity.
First of all Carmac has nothing to do with the EPS. As far as i know he only handles the IEM stuff. Secondly if you look at the same thread from november 2011 he couldn't do anything to solve the problem. Nothing has changed since then and i don't see any reason why this should change now. Don't get me wrong it's nice that the EPS Product Manager responds here. It's just not very convincing. It doesn't matter how much price money they paid out this year (probably from several years ago). "Working on it" is just not enough and i say that with similar statements in mind from 1 year ago.
I'm well-aware of what Carmac is and isn't involved with and I know him well enough to know that he'd make absolutely sure you'd end up talking to the right person. He's one of the most reliable and helpful people we have in esports. A lot has changed from what I heard, the prize money situation has been showing improvement.
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I think that there should be a watch list on TL for tourneys like this so people can easily be informed, just an idea though. Watch out and be careful about where you invest your time!
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On October 31 2012 20:26 Gr33d wrote:
Its 2012. There is no NEED anymore for expensive studios to broadcast matches.
The german EPS is pretty low priority nowadays, so maybe the teams should start their own league. Just look at ESC, Alternate or Mouz. They have pretty much all the big names in the german scene under contract, like Socke,Hasu,Darkforce,Goody or Cloud.
Sponsor a own league, boycott the EPS, provide money that gets paid much faster and the other known players will follow. Now that TaKe is independant they can even hire him for the casting/production and their audience would not be smaller, as he provides the german casting for EPS anyway.
With a much better (maybe even bigger?) tournament they would even have a improved way to show off their sponsors.
The situation in germany because of the casting and "gaminghouse" provides by TaKe is so good (the players visit him often anyway) that its a shame its not used to its full potential in such circumstances.
I would love to see that !
But Take is still connected to "ESL" in some ways.
Of course hes independent now, but they have helped him alot on the way to where he is now i think.
Take probably doesn't want to boycott the league for that reason.
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On November 01 2012 00:04 Martijn wrote:
I'm well-aware of what Carmac is and isn't involved with and I know him well enough to know that he'd make absolutely sure you'd end up talking to the right person. He's one of the most reliable and helpful people we have in esports.
The right person was posting right above you.
A lot has changed from what I heard, the prize money situation has been showing improvement.
What has changed? If you have some insights than pls inform us.
Cloud stated that he didn't get the money from the january 2011 EPS and you know what? I don't think he is lying and i don't see any improvements there.
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On November 01 2012 00:14 OrbitalPlane wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2012 00:04 Martijn wrote:
I'm well-aware of what Carmac is and isn't involved with and I know him well enough to know that he'd make absolutely sure you'd end up talking to the right person. He's one of the most reliable and helpful people we have in esports. The right person was posting right above you. Show nested quote + A lot has changed from what I heard, the prize money situation has been showing improvement. What has changed? If you have some insights than pls inform us. Cloud stated that he didn't get the money from the january 2011 EPS and you know what? I don't think he is lying and i don't see any improvements there.
Cloud I'm certain isn't lying, but a lot of people have been getting money. Take it or leave it, I'm not going to discus other peoples finances, they're more than capable of posting themselves if they care to.
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This is just how big companies do things...
Hold on to your money as long as possible, personally i won some small prize money stuff a bunch of times at esl and eventually i always got paid by them (which is more than i can say for tournaments like GGL and the Gathering).
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EPT
