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On November 01 2012 00:07 Xidious wrote:
I think that there should be a watch list on TL for tourneys like this so people can easily be informed, just an idea though. Watch out and be careful about where you invest your time!
Regarding the EPS, everyone participating knows that the delays are 2yrs+. It's an "open secret" in the German scene and everyone signing up for it is aware of that (not saying that it is rectified).
The payout of the EPS SC2 prize money has probably one of the least priority of the ESL prize money payouts. The SC2 EPS prize money is not directly covered by sponsors or Blizzard, the players wouldn't benefit from a lockout at all (contrary to some posts in this thread) and many German players have only decent contracts with teams because of the EPS. The players are in the same jurisdiction area as the company, so they don't need to fear that their claims somehow vanishes. Their only concern is annoyance, interests and fear that ESL goes bankrupt.
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On November 01 2012 00:04 Martijn wrote:
Remember, sc2 is dying *sheepish smirk* Jokes aside, we'd be foolish threatening some kind of lockout. eSports is experimental marketing for most companies that aren't directly involved in gaming, they'd run at the mention of lockouts.
GoOdy quiting forced nothing that he couldn't have achieved by just talking to ESL directly. Better yet, he'd have gotten a clearer answer if he did. You'll note that the post is little more than a variation of what Carmac posted a year ago with new numbers ;p
Edit: As for the wall of text thing, I just didn't want to quote the whole thing and have it take up a screen.
Yes i know that this statement doesnt mean anything. Dont you think goody tried more than once to talk to the esl the last 2 years? I think hes sick of empty promises and havin to keep track of his earnings and make sure that they pay all the time. No one likes to ask for money all the time.
Talking doesnt solve anything. I know how it works, ive worked in a company with liquidity issues. You dont even look up the details you just say: "yes, yes actually its in process RIGHT NOW and it will be there soon."
as i stated from my wall of text, it isnt an issue of not being able to pay. its a question of priority. and paying prize money has obviously the lowest priority. A threatened lockout would actually give esports more publicity and would help them evolve to a more serious sport. The main thing is to act together in a player union to stand up for your interests and negotiate the terms so that esl knows if they screw with one player, they have a problem with all of them.
and we as a community cannot do that for the players. they have to do that by themselves. the good thing about esports is, that there are plenty of other competitions they can attend instead. the esl hasnt got a monopoly on esports broadcasting. they dont even provide the german broadcast. they dont actually have that much power as long as the players arent fighting on their own.
It would be on very short notice for next week i know. i dont think it would be a huge economic damage. it would be a sign that its more than just some isolated players occasionally complaining. Ideally you dont have to actually do a lockout because people gonna find a solution before that. ESL just needs more motivation to find a solution.
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On November 01 2012 00:29 SinCitta wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2012 00:07 Xidious wrote:
I think that there should be a watch list on TL for tourneys like this so people can easily be informed, just an idea though. Watch out and be careful about where you invest your time! Regarding the EPS, everyone participating knows that the delays are 2yrs+. It's an "open secret" in the German scene and everyone signing up for it is aware of that (not saying that it is rectified). The payout of the EPS SC2 prize money has probably one of the least priority of the ESL prize money payouts. The SC2 EPS prize money is not directly covered by sponsors or Blizzard, the players wouldn't benefit from a lockout at all (contrary to some posts in this thread) and many German players have only decent contracts with teams because of the EPS. The players are in the same jurisdiction area as the company, so they don't need to fear that their claims somehow vanishes. Their only concern is annoyance, interests and fear that ESL goes bankrupt.
If the market dont exist, its only a question of time until the bumble blows.
If the market exist, someone else will step in and do a better job.
Your argument does not help. It just make sure that the end will be a little bit later but much harder and people in german scene overused it by now. Let them die. Lets give the other guys out there a chance to do it better.
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I thought EPS german was a great thing . was hopping we can get some in UK ..emm :/ gl to get the money
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On November 01 2012 00:39 SpikeStarcraft wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2012 00:04 Martijn wrote:
Remember, sc2 is dying *sheepish smirk* Jokes aside, we'd be foolish threatening some kind of lockout. eSports is experimental marketing for most companies that aren't directly involved in gaming, they'd run at the mention of lockouts.
GoOdy quiting forced nothing that he couldn't have achieved by just talking to ESL directly. Better yet, he'd have gotten a clearer answer if he did. You'll note that the post is little more than a variation of what Carmac posted a year ago with new numbers ;p
Edit: As for the wall of text thing, I just didn't want to quote the whole thing and have it take up a screen. Yes i know that this statement doesnt mean anything. Dont you think goody tried more than once to talk to the esl the last 2 years? I think hes sick of empty promises and havin to keep track of his earnings and make sure that they pay all the time. No one likes to ask for money all the time. Talking doesnt solve anything. I know how it works, ive worked in a company with liquidity issues. You dont even look up the details you just say: "yes, yes actually its in process RIGHT NOW and it will be there soon." as i stated from my wall of text, it isnt an issue of not being able to pay. its a question of priority. and paying prize money has obviously the lowest priority. A threatened lockout would actually give esports more publicity and would help them evolve to a more serious sport. The main thing is to act together in a player union to stand up for your interests and negotiate the terms so that esl knows if they screw with one player, they have a problem with all of them. and we as a community cannot do that for the players. they have to do that by themselves. the good thing about esports is, that there are plenty of other competitions they can attend instead. the esl hasnt got a monopoly on esports broadcasting. they dont even provide the german podcast. they dont actually have that much power as long as the players arent fighting on their own. It would be on very short notice for next week i know. i dont think it would be a huge economic damage. it would be a sign that its more than just some isolated players occasionally complaining. Ideally you dont have to actually do a lockout because people gonna find a solution before that. ESL just needs more motivation to find a solution.
I'm sure GoOdy did try to talk to them, but all he's saying is "I quit" and "2 years". So where's the discussion? Maybe ESL gave him perfectly good reasons, but for now all we're seeing is "they didn't pay" which is barely a statement to begin with. (Insert a big rant here about how bad it is to go and take things players/casters/teams post on social media and creating stories around it).
Going on strike is going to scare off sponsors. To draw a simple comparison, would you invest in a company where the staff is on strike? If EPS were to disappear, no one is going to replace it. The 5-6 top level players in Germany have alternatives internationally (though with much fiercer competition), everyone else will be relegated to playing the weeklies.
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if you cant pay your winners there and then you shouldn't be holding a tournament for them
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On November 01 2012 00:48 Martijn wrote:
Going on strike is going to scare off sponsors. To draw a simple comparison, would you invest in a company where the staff is on strike? If EPS were to disappear, no one is going to replace it.
How do you know nothing would replace it?
The 5-6 top level players in Germany have alternatives internationally (though with much fiercer competition), everyone else will be relegated to playing the weeklies.
How is this different to the situation right now?^^
The argument if we do something about it, they're gonna get bankrupt is not valid. Starcraft 2 prize money is a really small portion of all the liabilities turtle entertainment has. I've shown that in a previous post from the annual statement from 2010 and a post by Carmac. 2.8 millions to 30k €.
Its not just goody who complains. A lot of progamers have complained in this thread that they feel powerless about that issue. I just offered a way to deal with it. I know that boycotting is bad for business, but that can not be an excuse for everything. and its not excuseable to take 18 month to pay prize money.
and if they dont want to do something about it, it cant be so bad and they should stop complaining.
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On November 01 2012 01:01 SpikeStarcraft wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2012 00:48 Martijn wrote:
Going on strike is going to scare off sponsors. To draw a simple comparison, would you invest in a company where the staff is on strike? If EPS were to disappear, no one is going to replace it. How do you know nothing would replace it? Show nested quote + The 5-6 top level players in Germany have alternatives internationally (though with much fiercer competition), everyone else will be relegated to playing the weeklies. How is this different to the situation right now?^^ The argument if we do something about it, they're gonna get bankrupt is not valid. Starcraft 2 prize money is a really small portion of all the liabilities turtle entertainment has. I've shown that in a previous post from the annual statement from 2010 and a post by Carmac. 2millions to 30k €. Its not just goody who complains. A lot of progamers have complained in this thread that they feel powerless about that issue. I just offered a way to deal with it. I know that boycotting is bad for business, but that can not be an excuse for everything. and its not excuseable to take 18 month to pay prize money.
If through some kind of massive boycott we hurt ESL, sponsors are going to think twice. Players still won't get paid and only the top 5-6 German players will be able to stay on as professionals. We hurt eSports. If through negotiations and clarity everyone gets paid, we all live happily ever after.
You're expecting that if players say they won't play anymore they will magically get paid. It's shortsighted, illogical and unrealistic. It's at best a gamble. Again, I'm all for players forming a united front, they absolutely should, but they should be looking for clarity and negotiation, not to burn the place down.
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On November 01 2012 01:07 Martijn wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2012 01:01 SpikeStarcraft wrote:On November 01 2012 00:48 Martijn wrote:
Going on strike is going to scare off sponsors. To draw a simple comparison, would you invest in a company where the staff is on strike? If EPS were to disappear, no one is going to replace it. How do you know nothing would replace it? The 5-6 top level players in Germany have alternatives internationally (though with much fiercer competition), everyone else will be relegated to playing the weeklies. How is this different to the situation right now?^^ The argument if we do something about it, they're gonna get bankrupt is not valid. Starcraft 2 prize money is a really small portion of all the liabilities turtle entertainment has. I've shown that in a previous post from the annual statement from 2010 and a post by Carmac. 2millions to 30k €. Its not just goody who complains. A lot of progamers have complained in this thread that they feel powerless about that issue. I just offered a way to deal with it. I know that boycotting is bad for business, but that can not be an excuse for everything. and its not excuseable to take 18 month to pay prize money. If through some kind of massive boycott we hurt ESL, sponsors are going to think twice. Players still won't get paid and only the top 5-6 German players will be able to stay on as professionals. We hurt eSports. If through negotiations and clarity everyone gets paid, we all live happily ever after. You're expecting that if players say they won't play anymore they will magically get paid. It's shortsighted, illogical and unrealistic. It's at best a gamble. Again, I'm all for players forming a united front, they absolutely should, but they should be looking for clarity and negotiation, not to burn the place down.
No im expecting that prize money would have a higher priority for esl in the future and that you demonstrate the power of the players for future reference.
On the one hand you say, boycotting does nothing on the other hand you tell me its comparable to "burning the place down". Lets start slower. They should start to actually negotiate as a united front and if esl doesnt pay in several weeks as promised today, they can consider a boycott. Moderate enough? 
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On November 01 2012 00:41 skeldark wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2012 00:29 SinCitta wrote:On November 01 2012 00:07 Xidious wrote:
I think that there should be a watch list on TL for tourneys like this so people can easily be informed, just an idea though. Watch out and be careful about where you invest your time! Regarding the EPS, everyone participating knows that the delays are 2yrs+. It's an "open secret" in the German scene and everyone signing up for it is aware of that (not saying that it is rectified). The payout of the EPS SC2 prize money has probably one of the least priority of the ESL prize money payouts. The SC2 EPS prize money is not directly covered by sponsors or Blizzard, the players wouldn't benefit from a lockout at all (contrary to some posts in this thread) and many German players have only decent contracts with teams because of the EPS. The players are in the same jurisdiction area as the company, so they don't need to fear that their claims somehow vanishes. Their only concern is annoyance, interests and fear that ESL goes bankrupt. If the market dont exist, its only a question of time until the bumble blows. If the market exist, someone else will step in and do a better job. Your argument does not help. It just make sure that the end will be a little bit later but much harder and people in german scene overused it by now. Let them die. Lets give the other guys out there a chance to do it better.
Yes, it's debatable if the EPS concept is anachronistic or not. But as far as I know most of the debt is because of their past decisions (Take mentioned GIGA, PGL and something else, also the old studio was a money sink). They cut a lot of staff and stuff since then and their current operations seem to run fine [I have of course no idea if this is actually true or not]. The EPS stream viewership in SC2 is larger than ever since Take regularly casts them and we have some (small) highlights with the studio events. I don't know if this alone makes the EPS brand profitable. The EPS was always majorly driven by Counter-Strike.
The thing is, I am very skeptical if there is actually someone that can step in and do a better job. You would need to get enough capital after a company (the longest running even?) in the same business just failed. A lot of the staff, and with it, know-how would leave the scene and established business relations are lost, too. Players monetary claims would vanish and many players won't be able to wait for the next league to settle in. Basically, a lot of stability and trust would be lost. If a European competetitor was really there, where is it now? It should be able to compete, not wait until everything else is in shambles.
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On November 01 2012 01:16 SpikeStarcraft wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2012 01:07 Martijn wrote:On November 01 2012 01:01 SpikeStarcraft wrote:On November 01 2012 00:48 Martijn wrote:
Going on strike is going to scare off sponsors. To draw a simple comparison, would you invest in a company where the staff is on strike? If EPS were to disappear, no one is going to replace it. How do you know nothing would replace it? The 5-6 top level players in Germany have alternatives internationally (though with much fiercer competition), everyone else will be relegated to playing the weeklies. How is this different to the situation right now?^^ The argument if we do something about it, they're gonna get bankrupt is not valid. Starcraft 2 prize money is a really small portion of all the liabilities turtle entertainment has. I've shown that in a previous post from the annual statement from 2010 and a post by Carmac. 2millions to 30k €. Its not just goody who complains. A lot of progamers have complained in this thread that they feel powerless about that issue. I just offered a way to deal with it. I know that boycotting is bad for business, but that can not be an excuse for everything. and its not excuseable to take 18 month to pay prize money. If through some kind of massive boycott we hurt ESL, sponsors are going to think twice. Players still won't get paid and only the top 5-6 German players will be able to stay on as professionals. We hurt eSports. If through negotiations and clarity everyone gets paid, we all live happily ever after. You're expecting that if players say they won't play anymore they will magically get paid. It's shortsighted, illogical and unrealistic. It's at best a gamble. Again, I'm all for players forming a united front, they absolutely should, but they should be looking for clarity and negotiation, not to burn the place down. No im expecting that prize money would have a higher priority for esl and that you demonstrate the power of the players for future reference. On the one hand you say, boycotting does nothing on the other hand you tell me its comparable to "burning the place down". Lets start slower. They should start to actually negotiate as a united front and if esl doesnt pay in several weeks as promised today, they can consider a boycott. Moderate enough?
Oh no, I didn't mean to imply boycotting won't have an effect. Boycotting definitely will do something. I'm arguing as the stakes are, it'd do more harm than good.
Yep, they should start by producing a list of players and what they're owed. ESL can then state when they'll get paid and why they haven't been paid after looking into the claims.
Which means we do... nothing but sit and wait.
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Can't wait for the next "Szenecast". They already said that they would cover the topic. Unfortunately there will be only one side (players) represented. At least the statement from the Product Manager seems kind of promising.
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I was always wondering if all the leagues actually pay the prizemoney, I never thought of ESL, but thats that. Anyway, is ESL the only one doing this? I don't think so...
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On October 31 2012 20:53 Atrimex wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2012 20:29 SinCitta wrote:On October 31 2012 20:13 yoshi7319 wrote:
slightly offtopic:
if esl ever wants to cut down expenses and save money
I suggest they get rid of those terrible "hosts" they have
whenever they´re casting offline deciders/cupfinals from their own studio like last weekend.
i get the idea of "production value" and putting on stuff inbetween games, but these two (the woman especially, sorry)...quite awkward, little knowledge. They already cut every host except those two. And they have both a Counter-Strike background. ESLTV's SC2 department seems to be English only. The host's job is to get the players talking and the woman's job is to interact with the community, but nonetheless they really should get more insight into SC2 and its scene. Worst moment: "Erm... there will be a Zerg... patch... What does the community think? Will it make Zerg more... playable and stronger than how it is now?" - about the Heart of the Swarm expansion. My impression was the total opposite. They had a very high production value for a 5.000 viewer show. Maybe too high.
I agree, it was a pretty decent production. Your so called "worst moment" didn't actually happened that way. They asked a question about HOTS and it turned out none of the players had an opinion on it because nobody played HOTS.
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On November 01 2012 01:16 SinCitta wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2012 00:41 skeldark wrote:On November 01 2012 00:29 SinCitta wrote:On November 01 2012 00:07 Xidious wrote:
I think that there should be a watch list on TL for tourneys like this so people can easily be informed, just an idea though. Watch out and be careful about where you invest your time! Regarding the EPS, everyone participating knows that the delays are 2yrs+. It's an "open secret" in the German scene and everyone signing up for it is aware of that (not saying that it is rectified). The payout of the EPS SC2 prize money has probably one of the least priority of the ESL prize money payouts. The SC2 EPS prize money is not directly covered by sponsors or Blizzard, the players wouldn't benefit from a lockout at all (contrary to some posts in this thread) and many German players have only decent contracts with teams because of the EPS. The players are in the same jurisdiction area as the company, so they don't need to fear that their claims somehow vanishes. Their only concern is annoyance, interests and fear that ESL goes bankrupt. If the market dont exist, its only a question of time until the bumble blows. If the market exist, someone else will step in and do a better job. Your argument does not help. It just make sure that the end will be a little bit later but much harder and people in german scene overused it by now. Let them die. Lets give the other guys out there a chance to do it better. Yes, it's debatable if the EPS concept is anachronistic or not. But as far as I know most of the debt is because of their past decisions (Take mentioned GIGA, PGL and something else, also the old studio was a money sink). They cut a lot of staff and stuff since then and their current operations seem to run fine [I have of course no idea if this is actually true or not]. The EPS stream viewership in SC2 is larger than ever since Take regularly casts them and we have some (small) highlights with the studio events. I don't know if this alone makes the EPS brand profitable. The EPS was always majorly driven by Counter-Strike. The thing is, I am very skeptical if there is actually someone that can step in and do a better job. You would need to get enough capital after a company (the longest running even?) in the same business just failed. A lot of the staff, and with it, know-how would leave the scene and established business relations are lost, too. Players monetary claims would vanish and many players won't be able to wait for the next league to settle in. Basically, a lot of stability and trust would be lost. If a European competetitor was really there, where is it now? It should be able to compete, not wait until everything else is in shambles.
Some good points.
I personal think its a bubble. ESL is the only one who do it and they only do it with borrowed money.
However with pressure you can force them to pay of the prize money first.
No prize money = no viewers = no future.
If you get this in their heads they will start paying it. On the other hand. Someone who cant pay their debt consistent for years is done already.
BTW the official posts of esl are kind of admitting that they dont have the money for the prize before they announce it and pay of old debts with money that they perhaps get in future. What is in fact illegal.
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Got an Email today that we will get the prizemoney for the first season in 2011 in the next days. I guess we should complain publicly more often :D
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On November 01 2012 02:01 DarKFoRcE wrote:
Got an Email today that we will get the prizemoney for the first season in 2011 in the next days. I guess we should complain publicly more often :D
I said you. Letter from layer would do same thing.
problem is: you get your money now but all the not famous guys still have to wait.
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On November 01 2012 02:03 skeldark wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2012 02:01 DarKFoRcE wrote:
Got an Email today that we will get the prizemoney for the first season in 2011 in the next days. I guess we should complain publicly more often :D I said you. Letter from layer would do same thing. problem is: you get your money now but all the not famous guys still have to wait.
Na i think it gets paid out to everyone at the same time.
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If you kill off ESL then room may open up in the market for another tournament to take its place.
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On November 01 2012 00:48 Martijn wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2012 00:39 SpikeStarcraft wrote:On November 01 2012 00:04 Martijn wrote:
Remember, sc2 is dying *sheepish smirk* Jokes aside, we'd be foolish threatening some kind of lockout. eSports is experimental marketing for most companies that aren't directly involved in gaming, they'd run at the mention of lockouts.
GoOdy quiting forced nothing that he couldn't have achieved by just talking to ESL directly. Better yet, he'd have gotten a clearer answer if he did. You'll note that the post is little more than a variation of what Carmac posted a year ago with new numbers ;p
Edit: As for the wall of text thing, I just didn't want to quote the whole thing and have it take up a screen. Yes i know that this statement doesnt mean anything. Dont you think goody tried more than once to talk to the esl the last 2 years? I think hes sick of empty promises and havin to keep track of his earnings and make sure that they pay all the time. No one likes to ask for money all the time. Talking doesnt solve anything. I know how it works, ive worked in a company with liquidity issues. You dont even look up the details you just say: "yes, yes actually its in process RIGHT NOW and it will be there soon." as i stated from my wall of text, it isnt an issue of not being able to pay. its a question of priority. and paying prize money has obviously the lowest priority. A threatened lockout would actually give esports more publicity and would help them evolve to a more serious sport. The main thing is to act together in a player union to stand up for your interests and negotiate the terms so that esl knows if they screw with one player, they have a problem with all of them. and we as a community cannot do that for the players. they have to do that by themselves. the good thing about esports is, that there are plenty of other competitions they can attend instead. the esl hasnt got a monopoly on esports broadcasting. they dont even provide the german podcast. they dont actually have that much power as long as the players arent fighting on their own. It would be on very short notice for next week i know. i dont think it would be a huge economic damage. it would be a sign that its more than just some isolated players occasionally complaining. Ideally you dont have to actually do a lockout because people gonna find a solution before that. ESL just needs more motivation to find a solution. I'm sure GoOdy did try to talk to them, but all he's saying is "I quit" and "2 years". So where's the discussion? Maybe ESL gave him perfectly good reasons, but for now all we're seeing is "they didn't pay" which is barely a statement to begin with. (Insert a big rant here about how bad it is to go and take things players/casters/teams post on social media and creating stories around it). + Show Spoiler +
Going on strike is going to scare off sponsors. To draw a simple comparison, would you invest in a company where the staff is on strike? If EPS were to disappear, no one is going to replace it. The 5-6 top level players in Germany have alternatives internationally (though with much fiercer competition), everyone else will be relegated to playing the weeklies.
Well if you're sure that Goody talked to them, why did you say earlier "GoOdy quiting forced nothing that he couldn't have achieved by just talking to ESL directly. Better yet, he'd have gotten a clearer answer if he did." which implicates that he didnt talk to ESL directly?
As of now - no one here knows (and if one does please say so directly) if there were talks between Goody and the ESL, so you assuming that there were no talks and "attacking" Goody for that seems uncalled for.
I also think Goody's statement was enough. He's quitting, since he doesnt receive his money. Everything else is unimportant and would imho just sound like excuses for failing to pay the player. Either players get paid or it's their right to leave without any further explanation.
On the other hand, I agree with you about the boycott. For the reasons I posted earlier in this thread (team sponsor exposure, ...) it would just hurt the players.
iirc Take is also benefiting from ESL, since they pay GEMA for him.
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EPT
