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On November 01 2012 06:48 A3mercury wrote:
I guess the biggest inconvenience for a winner is that what if it goes 'bankrupt' or whatever the equivalent is? No one gets paid lol. Idk thats just my first thought.
A terrible end or terror without end ... Depends on the situation. If you win one time and dont play anymore, yes.
If you are around for some while and perhaps will win more.... perhaps its good if they go bankrupt and someone else come up.
On November 01 2012 06:52 ggrrg wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2012 02:13 skeldark wrote:On November 01 2012 02:10 vthree wrote:On November 01 2012 02:03 skeldark wrote:On November 01 2012 02:01 DarKFoRcE wrote:
Got an Email today that we will get the prizemoney for the first season in 2011 in the next days. I guess we should complain publicly more often :D I said you. Letter from layer would do same thing. problem is: you get your money now but all the not famous guys still have to wait. Well, at least the players didn't have to pay for the lawyer. You dont pay him they do. The lawyer will say them that they have to pay, the cost of the lawyer , the prize money +5% for each year. Thats the reason they instant pay. Because next letter will be, that they have to pay the price money, the lawyer and the court. They know they have to pay it, they know they are over time, they know they will loose. Its the oldest trick ever. Pay everyone who wants to sue you, dont pay the rest. Only one of 100 goes to a lawyer = good deal. Theoretically, this is true. In Practice, it is an absolutely naive expectation. Despite contracts, most financial disputes here end in compromise settlements, which translates to getting only portion of the money owed (typically half) and having to pay yourself for your lawyer fees. In something as unregulated and unusual as esports, chances are that a compromise settlement will be the best the players can expect. Even in the unlikely scenario that the players could win in court and receive all the money, while ESL having to pay for court and lawyer fees, the whole process can be delayed for years. This means that the players would have to pay for lawyers/court upfront and be reimbursed only after the final court decision. (Obvisouly, I am talking about Germany. In Bulgaria, court decisions are won by whoever offers the most money...)
True. If they fight it out. But if they would fight it out always, they loose in last instance always.
So they try to make a deal: Get half of the money now or fight with us on court for years.
BIG company's do that. Insurance Company's love this method.
Smaller ones have the same problem you have. They cant afford to fight 1000 law cases.
So they use the easy way: Pay at first sign of lawyer, dont pay rest. You still make a lot of money this way.
You find out what type they are, by sending one letter from the lawyer. You can still cancel it if you dont want to go to court.
Also take into account, that the way they make their business, there is a good chance they dont want anyone to look to closely into their books.
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Anyway that's all theoretical and gets off topic.
All i know is, if they try to cheat me, i would not just wait 2 years.
Imaging the faces if you win a tournament and call them out on not paying for last one, live on main stage 
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On November 01 2012 06:01 Martijn wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2012 03:08 Zocat wrote:On November 01 2012 02:20 Martijn wrote:On November 01 2012 02:08 Zocat wrote:On November 01 2012 00:48 Martijn wrote:On November 01 2012 00:39 SpikeStarcraft wrote:On November 01 2012 00:04 Martijn wrote:
Remember, sc2 is dying *sheepish smirk* Jokes aside, we'd be foolish threatening some kind of lockout. eSports is experimental marketing for most companies that aren't directly involved in gaming, they'd run at the mention of lockouts.
GoOdy quiting forced nothing that he couldn't have achieved by just talking to ESL directly. Better yet, he'd have gotten a clearer answer if he did. You'll note that the post is little more than a variation of what Carmac posted a year ago with new numbers ;p
Edit: As for the wall of text thing, I just didn't want to quote the whole thing and have it take up a screen. Yes i know that this statement doesnt mean anything. Dont you think goody tried more than once to talk to the esl the last 2 years? I think hes sick of empty promises and havin to keep track of his earnings and make sure that they pay all the time. No one likes to ask for money all the time. Talking doesnt solve anything. I know how it works, ive worked in a company with liquidity issues. You dont even look up the details you just say: "yes, yes actually its in process RIGHT NOW and it will be there soon." as i stated from my wall of text, it isnt an issue of not being able to pay. its a question of priority. and paying prize money has obviously the lowest priority. A threatened lockout would actually give esports more publicity and would help them evolve to a more serious sport. The main thing is to act together in a player union to stand up for your interests and negotiate the terms so that esl knows if they screw with one player, they have a problem with all of them. and we as a community cannot do that for the players. they have to do that by themselves. the good thing about esports is, that there are plenty of other competitions they can attend instead. the esl hasnt got a monopoly on esports broadcasting. they dont even provide the german podcast. they dont actually have that much power as long as the players arent fighting on their own. It would be on very short notice for next week i know. i dont think it would be a huge economic damage. it would be a sign that its more than just some isolated players occasionally complaining. Ideally you dont have to actually do a lockout because people gonna find a solution before that. ESL just needs more motivation to find a solution. I'm sure GoOdy did try to talk to them, but all he's saying is "I quit" and "2 years". So where's the discussion? Maybe ESL gave him perfectly good reasons, but for now all we're seeing is "they didn't pay" which is barely a statement to begin with. (Insert a big rant here about how bad it is to go and take things players/casters/teams post on social media and creating stories around it). + Show Spoiler +
Going on strike is going to scare off sponsors. To draw a simple comparison, would you invest in a company where the staff is on strike? If EPS were to disappear, no one is going to replace it. The 5-6 top level players in Germany have alternatives internationally (though with much fiercer competition), everyone else will be relegated to playing the weeklies.
Well if you're sure that Goody talked to them, why did you say earlier "GoOdy quiting forced nothing that he couldn't have achieved by just talking to ESL directly. Better yet, he'd have gotten a clearer answer if he did." which implicates that he didnt talk to ESL directly? As of now - no one here knows (and if one does please say so directly) if there were talks between Goody and the ESL, so you assuming that there were no talks and "attacking" Goody for that seems uncalled for. I also think Goody's statement was enough. He's quitting, since he doesnt receive his money. Everything else is unimportant and would imho just sound like excuses for failing to pay the player. Either players get paid or it's their right to leave without any further explanation. On the other hand, I agree with you about the boycott. For the reasons I posted earlier in this thread (team sponsor exposure, ...) it would just hurt the players. iirc Take is also benefiting from ESL, since they pay GEMA for him. First off I never attacked GoOdy and I resent that you'd make that implication. I merely pointed out that now was a bad time for him to make that statement. A good number of other people in this thread DID make the claim that it was some kind of ragequit which explains why now was a bad time for him to make the statement. For as much as you can even call something someone says on facebook a statement. Are you implying we should just assume ESL is trying to cheat players out of their money? Even though even GoOdy didn't state anything regarding what ESLs position? GoOdy of course isn't obligated to make any statement on anything, but it would benefit him to at least elaborate on what was going on. If he talked to them and I'm assuming he did, what was he told? Where's the rest of the conversation? You can't have clarity in these kind of situations without some kind of discourse which clearly isn't present here yet. You said multiple times the way Goody approaches the situation was bad, that's why I put the attacking in " ". But always under the assumption that he didnt talk to ESL ("GoOdy quiting forced nothing that he couldn't have achieved by just talking to ESL directly. ", "Players hate dealing with that kind of shit in general. Players and ESL at least need to establish a conversation if we're looking to get anywhere.", "It's pretty easy to approach the people at ESL. Have any of the pros that posted tried just directly asking? [the way that is worded = rhetorical question "Of course they didnt!"] There should at least be an open line of communication between the players and the league.") You should stop basing your argument under this unproven assumption. Or at least make it more clear that it's just based upon this assumption and dont present it as a fact. I'm convinced he didn't approach it well because his timing was poor. Several people have claimed it was some kind of ragequit because he only spoke up after his loss. If he had done it before his loss, or after a win, he would've had a much stronger position. It would've seemed a rational decision rather than an emotional one. It would've been better for him, I don't get how you can't grasp this.. He's painting a bad picture. Now, players do hate dealing with this crap and players, as a group, need to establish an open conversation with ESL. Something they can be held accountable for later. They still do because even if they're getting paid for one thing now, there's still much pending. If you want to read it as rhetorical, that's on you but I was inviting players to share what ESL told them. Show nested quote +On November 01 2012 03:08 Zocat wrote:
And I dont say that we should assume that the ESL is trying to cheat players out of their money.
I say it's a fact that they cheat players out of their money. Even if that might not be their intention. They do it, and it's bad.
And for this there is no excuse. If he doesnt have the money after the timeframe (according to grigorin 180days after the season) there's nothing to discuss, and there is no need for any conversation between him and ESL. Cheating players out of their money means not paying them. At no point has it been established EPS Germany doesn't pay, they only take a very long time. Even with the old complaints, everything got settled, they've got a very clean record. EPS Nordic/UK/Benelux are far more suspect for that matter.
2nd part:
Imho with interest, player dependency on prize money , it's cheating players out of their money.
I think the important factor is that players dont know when they're paid. If ESL says "We will pay you after 7 months" it's ok (even though that's a long time). But the 180days after season ending are over.
The being in the dark when they're paid is the cheating part imho.
If my definition of cheating is wrong (or contradicting your own), I apologize. But that what I just said was what I meant 
Paying late & outside of fixed intervals = cheating out of money.
I cannot comment on the other EPS.
1st part:
Goody said during the Windows 8 release cup that he was thinking about quitting professional SC2 completely. Though him being reacquired earlier by ESC changed this opinion of course. (though I speculate his contract with ESC changed concerning him being required to play ESL if that ever was a point)
But for me this hints to Goody not being satisfied with the SC2 scene (?) overall. And, because of this, it doesnt feel like a ragequit to me. More like "I am ready to quit, these are the things which annoy me. I accepted them earlier, but enough is enough. If you dont change them I'm out of here. No more chances".
Doesnt feel emotional but calculated for me.
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On November 01 2012 10:30 Zocat wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2012 06:01 Martijn wrote:On November 01 2012 03:08 Zocat wrote:On November 01 2012 02:20 Martijn wrote:On November 01 2012 02:08 Zocat wrote:On November 01 2012 00:48 Martijn wrote:On November 01 2012 00:39 SpikeStarcraft wrote:On November 01 2012 00:04 Martijn wrote:
Remember, sc2 is dying *sheepish smirk* Jokes aside, we'd be foolish threatening some kind of lockout. eSports is experimental marketing for most companies that aren't directly involved in gaming, they'd run at the mention of lockouts.
GoOdy quiting forced nothing that he couldn't have achieved by just talking to ESL directly. Better yet, he'd have gotten a clearer answer if he did. You'll note that the post is little more than a variation of what Carmac posted a year ago with new numbers ;p
Edit: As for the wall of text thing, I just didn't want to quote the whole thing and have it take up a screen. Yes i know that this statement doesnt mean anything. Dont you think goody tried more than once to talk to the esl the last 2 years? I think hes sick of empty promises and havin to keep track of his earnings and make sure that they pay all the time. No one likes to ask for money all the time. Talking doesnt solve anything. I know how it works, ive worked in a company with liquidity issues. You dont even look up the details you just say: "yes, yes actually its in process RIGHT NOW and it will be there soon." as i stated from my wall of text, it isnt an issue of not being able to pay. its a question of priority. and paying prize money has obviously the lowest priority. A threatened lockout would actually give esports more publicity and would help them evolve to a more serious sport. The main thing is to act together in a player union to stand up for your interests and negotiate the terms so that esl knows if they screw with one player, they have a problem with all of them. and we as a community cannot do that for the players. they have to do that by themselves. the good thing about esports is, that there are plenty of other competitions they can attend instead. the esl hasnt got a monopoly on esports broadcasting. they dont even provide the german podcast. they dont actually have that much power as long as the players arent fighting on their own. It would be on very short notice for next week i know. i dont think it would be a huge economic damage. it would be a sign that its more than just some isolated players occasionally complaining. Ideally you dont have to actually do a lockout because people gonna find a solution before that. ESL just needs more motivation to find a solution. I'm sure GoOdy did try to talk to them, but all he's saying is "I quit" and "2 years". So where's the discussion? Maybe ESL gave him perfectly good reasons, but for now all we're seeing is "they didn't pay" which is barely a statement to begin with. (Insert a big rant here about how bad it is to go and take things players/casters/teams post on social media and creating stories around it). + Show Spoiler +
Going on strike is going to scare off sponsors. To draw a simple comparison, would you invest in a company where the staff is on strike? If EPS were to disappear, no one is going to replace it. The 5-6 top level players in Germany have alternatives internationally (though with much fiercer competition), everyone else will be relegated to playing the weeklies.
Well if you're sure that Goody talked to them, why did you say earlier "GoOdy quiting forced nothing that he couldn't have achieved by just talking to ESL directly. Better yet, he'd have gotten a clearer answer if he did." which implicates that he didnt talk to ESL directly? As of now - no one here knows (and if one does please say so directly) if there were talks between Goody and the ESL, so you assuming that there were no talks and "attacking" Goody for that seems uncalled for. I also think Goody's statement was enough. He's quitting, since he doesnt receive his money. Everything else is unimportant and would imho just sound like excuses for failing to pay the player. Either players get paid or it's their right to leave without any further explanation. On the other hand, I agree with you about the boycott. For the reasons I posted earlier in this thread (team sponsor exposure, ...) it would just hurt the players. iirc Take is also benefiting from ESL, since they pay GEMA for him. First off I never attacked GoOdy and I resent that you'd make that implication. I merely pointed out that now was a bad time for him to make that statement. A good number of other people in this thread DID make the claim that it was some kind of ragequit which explains why now was a bad time for him to make the statement. For as much as you can even call something someone says on facebook a statement. Are you implying we should just assume ESL is trying to cheat players out of their money? Even though even GoOdy didn't state anything regarding what ESLs position? GoOdy of course isn't obligated to make any statement on anything, but it would benefit him to at least elaborate on what was going on. If he talked to them and I'm assuming he did, what was he told? Where's the rest of the conversation? You can't have clarity in these kind of situations without some kind of discourse which clearly isn't present here yet. You said multiple times the way Goody approaches the situation was bad, that's why I put the attacking in " ". But always under the assumption that he didnt talk to ESL ("GoOdy quiting forced nothing that he couldn't have achieved by just talking to ESL directly. ", "Players hate dealing with that kind of shit in general. Players and ESL at least need to establish a conversation if we're looking to get anywhere.", "It's pretty easy to approach the people at ESL. Have any of the pros that posted tried just directly asking? [the way that is worded = rhetorical question "Of course they didnt!"] There should at least be an open line of communication between the players and the league.") You should stop basing your argument under this unproven assumption. Or at least make it more clear that it's just based upon this assumption and dont present it as a fact. I'm convinced he didn't approach it well because his timing was poor. Several people have claimed it was some kind of ragequit because he only spoke up after his loss. If he had done it before his loss, or after a win, he would've had a much stronger position. It would've seemed a rational decision rather than an emotional one. It would've been better for him, I don't get how you can't grasp this.. He's painting a bad picture. Now, players do hate dealing with this crap and players, as a group, need to establish an open conversation with ESL. Something they can be held accountable for later. They still do because even if they're getting paid for one thing now, there's still much pending. If you want to read it as rhetorical, that's on you but I was inviting players to share what ESL told them. On November 01 2012 03:08 Zocat wrote:
And I dont say that we should assume that the ESL is trying to cheat players out of their money.
I say it's a fact that they cheat players out of their money. Even if that might not be their intention. They do it, and it's bad.
And for this there is no excuse. If he doesnt have the money after the timeframe (according to grigorin 180days after the season) there's nothing to discuss, and there is no need for any conversation between him and ESL. Cheating players out of their money means not paying them. At no point has it been established EPS Germany doesn't pay, they only take a very long time. Even with the old complaints, everything got settled, they've got a very clean record. EPS Nordic/UK/Benelux are far more suspect for that matter. 2nd part: Imho with interest, player dependency on prize money , it's cheating players out of their money. I think the important factor is that players dont know when they're paid. If ESL says "We will pay you after 7 months" it's ok (even though that's a long time). But the 180days after season ending are over. The being in the dark when they're paid is the cheating part imho. If my definition of cheating is wrong (or contradicting your own), I apologize. But that what I just said was what I meant Paying late & outside of fixed intervals = cheating out of money. I cannot comment on the other EPS. 1st part: Goody said during the Windows 8 release cup that he was thinking about quitting professional SC2 completely. Though him being reacquired earlier by ESC changed this opinion of course. (though I speculate his contract with ESC changed concerning him being required to play ESL if that ever was a point) But for me this hints to Goody not being satisfied with the SC2 scene (?) overall. And, because of this, it doesnt feel like a ragequit to me. More like "I am ready to quit, these are the things which annoy me. I accepted them earlier, but enough is enough. If you dont change them I'm out of here. No more chances". Doesnt feel emotional but calculated for me.
I completely agree that there should be more clarity and that's what really is wrong in this situation. So an open discussion between the players as a group and ESL seems like it'd be the best way to go. Pick a representative, get a full list of outstanding prizemoney and have a 30 minute meeting with ESL every 2 weeks to see what has been done in each case.
Beyond that, what you describe seems like a very emotional decision to me. Overal dissatisfaction, unwillingness to compromise and putting forth ultimatums. But I'm not a shrink, so who knows. Personally I think GoOdy hoped to speed things up and this was the way he thought would work best.
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if their business model works only by delaying liabilities over such a period of time it simply does not work. Period.
Why being afraid revolting ESL if they don't fullfil their part on the deal ? There's not much to loose individually, but much to win (more professionalism in esports).
I really wonder how they got away with this over so many years.
Go Go Goddy, he's right. He has my respect as he has balls obv
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On October 31 2012 18:31 USvBleakill wrote:don´t think so. It´s a part of their business plan to keep and work with the prize money as long as possible.
I prefer to give them benefit of the doubt.
Edit: I tend to give people benefit of the doubt before considering that they might be disgusting human beings. Dishonest business disgusts me more than almost anything. Although if they're broke and won't admit it that is somewhat dishonest. Its kind of a desperate flailing I could somewhat sympathize with though. No one wants to give up the business they've tried to build.
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On November 01 2012 01:50 Baum wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2012 20:53 Atrimex wrote:On October 31 2012 20:29 SinCitta wrote:On October 31 2012 20:13 yoshi7319 wrote:
slightly offtopic:
if esl ever wants to cut down expenses and save money
I suggest they get rid of those terrible "hosts" they have
whenever they´re casting offline deciders/cupfinals from their own studio like last weekend.
i get the idea of "production value" and putting on stuff inbetween games, but these two (the woman especially, sorry)...quite awkward, little knowledge. They already cut every host except those two. And they have both a Counter-Strike background. ESLTV's SC2 department seems to be English only. The host's job is to get the players talking and the woman's job is to interact with the community, but nonetheless they really should get more insight into SC2 and its scene. Worst moment: "Erm... there will be a Zerg... patch... What does the community think? Will it make Zerg more... playable and stronger than how it is now?" - about the Heart of the Swarm expansion. My impression was the total opposite. They had a very high production value for a 5.000 viewer show. Maybe too high. I agree, it was a pretty decent production. Your so called "worst moment" didn't actually happened that way. They asked a question about HOTS and it turned out none of the players had an opinion on it because nobody played HOTS.
http://www.twitch.tv//taketv/b/337067482?t=20m30s
Okay, I was paraphrasing from my memory and exchanged "is the [Zerg] race more attractive for you now?" with "playable and stronger".
And I didn't say that the production overall was bad. I said the hosts should get more ingame knowledge. We demand this from our international hosts, I don't know why we have different standards for them. It's the same job.
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On October 31 2012 23:14 MuMeise wrote:
actually... the solution is quite easy:
Get a lawyer and get the hell to court with it and also at least in germany you can just go to the police and press charges for free and the state will look into it.
No, the state will not into look into private law matters for you for free. You can bring those issues to the court, if you wish and that is not for free.
In germany if someone can't pay for 3 years... it's just illegal and you have to go into administration/bankruptcy if you can't pay it's as simple as that.
No discussion and no drama. Clean simple.
I say you owe me 500 Euros, you didn't pay me for 3 years. That's illegal. *cries* What about legally binding contracts and statue of limitiaions?
I would have been in court with them after 2 month not paying...hey this is about money.
No you wouldn't. AFAIK no one has ever taken anyone to court about a similar issue in Germany *ever*. Is a couple of hundred Euros really worth fighting over court when no one has got a clue how it would end?
And maybe people don't realize it, but behaviour like this is ruining the complete professional esport scene because if no one is paying then what is the point of being a progamer.
This is going on since eSports exists. Get your facts straight, don't just guess.
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I don't understand how this can go on for so long and in so many cases. Why don't progamers just stop competing in tournaments that don't pay pricemoney. Why don't they use the leverage they have?
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EPT
