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https://www.facebook.com/GoOdySC2/posts/456217794430567
"Since ESL isnt paying any pricemoney i will quit EPS."
On October 31 2012 05:01 aTnClouD wrote:
We are in the 6th season I believe, and still waiting for the money from the 2nd season, which started in january 2011. I think he has a valid point.
On October 31 2012 05:14 Satiinifi wrote:
waiting for eps nordic since 2 years ago, was waiting for esl enc since 3 years ago, got it month ago !!!!! :D
On October 31 2012 05:50 DarKFoRcE wrote:
Its true. The only EPS Season that has been paid out was the one that ended november or december 2010. I think the first 2011 season will be paid out soonish. As long as ESL doesnt go broke, im quite sure that they will pay out the prizemoney eventually... but yes, we have to wait for very long (18 months right now).
IEM on the other hand is better. I have already gotten my prizemoney for IEM Sao Paulo like 2 or 3 months ago (the event was early february 2012) and i think i should get the prizemoney from IEM hannover (that was early march 2012) soon.
On October 31 2012 07:49 DeMusliM wrote:
ESL are pretty infamous for paying out very late. I've dealt with ESL both in there national leagues such as EPS Germany, and there international tournaments like IEM. And on both types of tournaments they pay out extremely late, and you have to pester them until they pay you.
Statement of Bastian Veiser [ Product Manager ESL Pro Series ]
On October 31 2012 23:34 myswe wrote:
To have no delay in prize money has been our most important priority for a long time.
The ESL has paid out close to $11,500,000 since it started. We paid out $1,194,727 prize money this year, including current as well as outstanding prize money.
ESL does not operate on investment money, therefore the prize money gap cannot be closed instantly. While there are complaints, and for a few months there may still be some, we have reduced outstanding prize money by 50% in the last five months.
We plan to pay out another big chunk in the coming weeks (including most of what GoOdy was referring to).
I am very sorry for the inconvenience caused to the players. It’s the personal priority of mine to make sure the ESL Pro Series is on schedule with the prize money. This is what we are all working towards.
Best regards,
Bastian Veiser [ Product Manager ESL Pro Series ]
On November 01 2012 02:01 DarKFoRcE wrote:
Got an Email today that we will get the prizemoney for the first season in 2011 in the next days. I guess we should complain publicly more often :D
On November 01 2012 06:27 IdrA wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2012 02:13 TypeLex wrote:
ESL paid the Type players in reasonable time when the team was around.
It is indeed a difficult topic, I still feel that ESL is doing a very good job, they run IEM, they do great shows for viewers and work at their utmost to incorporate new sources of revenues to better support eSports development.
It's difficult but I'd say we should try to help them rather than go against them.
should support an organization thats notoriously bad? i play their events out of appreciation for intel, but they are terrible. player treatment is a very, very low priority for them. convention based events are always awful. they're famous for being bad about paying prize money, they usually do pay you eventually if you hassle them enough but you're lucky if you get it within 6 months most of the time. and its not even like theyre pushing the envelope in terms of production quality or... anything. mlg and dreamhack clearly outclass them in terms of that. they just arent an organization that deserves much of anything from the community.
ESL statement from almost a year ago: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=282262
The average prize money delay differs between individual tournaments, but it's not as bad as it's made out to be. Obviously it should not happen. People at ESL are aware of it and are working to make sure everything gets paid and that the delay in prize money goes away.
One year has passed, the problem stayed the same. ESL assured the community that they are aware of the problem and that they take it very seriously. So why is it still the same issue?
Goody is the first one that actually draws his conclusions and quits EPS. Is that the right answer?
What is the future of ESL? Can they get away with being behind 1.5 - 2 years and is that acceptable as a permanent state of paying out prize money? since the issue is for sure not temporary anymore.
Im not sure what to do. Can you just hope that it will get better eventually? accept that its the way ESL operates? or quitting esl and moving on like GoOdy does?
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I would not overvalue it, since this basically was a ragequit after going out in round one.
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ESL are notoriously famous for paying late  , at least they always do. If u play in their leagues and tournies you have to plan ahead. And im sure goody knows that...
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On October 31 2012 04:42 TheBJ wrote:ESL are notoriously famous for paying late , at least they always do. If u play in their leagues and tournies you have to plan ahead. And im sure goody knows that...
He commented on his facebook post that he is waiting for 2 years now.
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Why is this in the tournament forum?
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because EPS is a tourney in sc2. Maybe its the wrong logic?
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We are in the 6th season I believe, and still waiting for the money from the 2nd season, which started in january 2011. I think he has a valid point.
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United Kingdom50293 Posts
On October 31 2012 05:01 aTnClouD wrote:
We are in the 6th season I believe, and still waiting for the money from the 2nd season, which started in january 2011. I think he has a valid point.
Wait cloud has anyone been paid? I think if people are not getting paid it should be publicised.
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As far as I know nobody has been paid since january 2011. I am not 100% sure but I didn't get any money since 1st season and last time I asked my teammates that's what they told me.
Edit: correction, 2nd season ended around march-april 2011, not january.
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he is totally right. I think everyone should boycott ESL leagues until they pay out!
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Oo,
I think this belong in main not tournaments.
I never liked esl (because their confusing website ^^) but i thought they are one of the few that pay instant.
for the protocol:
Lets learn for the past once!
Lets wait until we hear the whole story.
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People bash the hell out of shady teams like Apex and Eclypsia, time to demand some accountability from tournament organizers as well!
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On October 31 2012 05:08 Aulisemia wrote:
People bash the hell out of teams like Apex and Eclypsia, time to demand some accountability from tournament organizers as well!
I love how u are hyping drama and directly telling to raise pitchwork, but I agree totally.
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same with EPS UK i have been waiting for like a year and a half for my prizemoney
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"Price" money is like ESL is for sale and that's how much it costs, or what? :p
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On October 31 2012 05:10 balosan wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2012 05:08 Aulisemia wrote:
People bash the hell out of teams like Apex and Eclypsia, time to demand some accountability from tournament organizers as well! I love how u are hyping drama and directly telling to raise pitchwork, but I agree totally.
It's not really hyping so much as pointing out how viewer anger tends to skew in odd directions. I think legitimacy in all aspects of Esports is required for any sort of stable growth after all.
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United Kingdom50293 Posts
On October 31 2012 05:07 skeldark wrote:
Oo,
I think this belong in main not tournaments.
I never liked esl (because their confusing website ^^) but i thought they are one of the few that pay instant.
for the protocol:
Lets learn for the past once!
Lets wait until we hear the whole story.
I don't think shit needs to get started, wait until ESL has something to say before we stick them on the cross and burn them all. We have to pros perspective, goody, cloud (And according to him his team mates) and ourk have now complained about ESL not paying so let's wait for the other for once.
But that's no fun BURN THEM ALL TO THE GROUND.
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waiting for eps nordic since 2 years ago, was waiting for esl enc since 3 years ago, got it month ago !!!!! :D
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On October 31 2012 05:13 Fusilero wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2012 05:07 skeldark wrote:
Oo,
I think this belong in main not tournaments.
I never liked esl (because their confusing website ^^) but i thought they are one of the few that pay instant.
for the protocol:
Lets learn for the past once!
Lets wait until we hear the whole story. I don't think shit needs to get started, wait until ESL has something to say before we stick them on the cross and burn them all. We have to pros perspective, goody, cloud (And according to him his team mates) and ourk have now complained about ESL not paying so let's wait for the other for once. But that's no fun BURN THEM ALL TO THE GROUND.
ESL has someting to say, their reply always to questions about the delays has been.... "im sorry it will take a little more time" stretching up to 3 years. :D
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Is it just me, or do posts like this "X player says Y" seem kind of like spam. If we cared what the person was doing/saying/whining about, we would follow their twitter/facebook. Now if there was a thread that collaborated all of the players who were upset with ESL's payment schedule or lack of one then it might be interesting to me.
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I have no sympathy for ESL, what possible reason excuses an organizer from giving out prize money for 2 years, while at the same time continuing to run tournaments. Either they don't have the money to pay out, or they have the money and are not paying. Either way, they shouldn't be running newer tournaments, without paying players from over 2 years ago.
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On October 31 2012 05:10 sitromit wrote:"Price" money is like ESL is for sale and that's how much it costs, or what? :p
After some research i found out that theres actually a difference between price and prize in english. :D
some of us arent native speakers, so for future reference, we talk about prize money :D
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If they are not paying for more than a year, why are people still playing their tournaments? Are all the weekly go4sc2's not payed out either? Why does Nerchio e.g. play them every week then? Just confuses me.
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Seriously wtf.... 2 years and no pay? Why aren't more players saying anything? I remember someone pointed out ESL's late payment but that was a year+ ago.
Edit: also yes this should be in the general section, not tournament section. Generally Tournament section is reserved for actual running of tournaments. General section is for complaining about tournaments.
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United Kingdom50293 Posts
On October 31 2012 05:17 Satiinifi wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2012 05:13 Fusilero wrote:On October 31 2012 05:07 skeldark wrote:
Oo,
I think this belong in main not tournaments.
I never liked esl (because their confusing website ^^) but i thought they are one of the few that pay instant.
for the protocol:
Lets learn for the past once!
Lets wait until we hear the whole story. I don't think shit needs to get started, wait until ESL has something to say before we stick them on the cross and burn them all. We have to pros perspective, goody, cloud (And according to him his team mates) and ourk have now complained about ESL not paying so let's wait for the other for once. But that's no fun BURN THEM ALL TO THE GROUND. ESL has someting to say, their reply always to questions about the delays has been.... "im sorry it will take a little more time" stretching up to 3 years. :D
LET THE LYNCH MOBS COMMENCE.
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Players dont talk about the prize money in fear of not being paid at all eventually, and players keep playing the tournaments because as far as I can tell the prize moneys are eventually paid out, but it always takes 3+ years. And about go4sc2, atleast I got my money from that in 2-3months. So I guess the problem mainly includes the bigger leagues/tournaments.
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3 years is not right. They benefit from having people in their tournaments.... there would be no tourneys obviously without the players.... so for them to snub them like this for years just isn't right.
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On October 31 2012 05:20 SpikeStarcraft wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2012 05:10 sitromit wrote:"Price" money is like ESL is for sale and that's how much it costs, or what? :p After some research i found out that theres actually a difference between price and prize in english. :D some of us arent native speakers, so for future reference, we talk about prize money :D
Go4SC2 prizes get paid faster than EPS, and as far as it concerns me I play EPS only because my team wants me to. No other reason for me to do so.
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Feels like I red this topic one year ago.
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2 years?
Seriously?
And they said IEM was bad.
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On October 31 2012 05:24 Satiinifi wrote:
Players dont talk about the prize money in fear of not being paid at all eventually, and players keep playing the tournaments because as far as I can tell the prize moneys are eventually paid out, but it always takes 3+ years. And about go4sc2, atleast I got my money from that in 2-3months. So I guess the problem mainly includes the bigger leagues/tournaments.
I don't want to question you, since you are pro living from it, not me, but from my experience earning money out of gaming (which is not that small, since I am 40 years old) I think this is the wrong deceision. One player raging about quitting because of no pay is a thing that might cause a shit storm, that will be forgotten when the next one starts, but will not change much. There are already different pros talking here about the same problem and I think you would be able to do something about it.
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On October 31 2012 05:26 pmp10 wrote:
2 years?
Seriously?
And they said IEM was bad.
These are people who do IEMs :D
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ESL often times pays faster but waiting 3 years for price money is a total joke.
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On October 31 2012 05:26 pmp10 wrote:
2 years?
Seriously?
And they said IEM was bad.
trying to understand if that was a troll or a dumb post. My brains going explode!!!
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what i dont understand.
They are a german company. Just fucking sue them.
I bet with you, you dont have to go to court. 1 week after they get the letter from your lawyer you have your money.
I cant understand how you can wait so long for your money. If you did not get your product from a shop would you wait years until you do something too?
I would call them out on main stage on their own event.
Stand their and say: "thanks but i want to have it in cash. you know, you did not pay for last year yet..."
IF you wait they will not think: "fuck. next time we pay" they think " nice we can get away with this".
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Its true. The only EPS Season that has been paid out was the one that ended november or december 2010. I think the first 2011 season will be paid out soonish. As long as ESL doesnt go broke, im quite sure that they will pay out the prizemoney eventually... but yes, we have to wait for very long (18 months right now).
IEM on the other hand is better. I have already gotten my prizemoney for IEM Sao Paulo like 2 or 3 months ago (the event was early february 2012) and i think i should get the prizemoney from IEM hannover (that was early march 2012) soon.
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I remember watching a blog with a hasndsome italian man ttalking about this very topic. It is retarded that players have to wait so long for prize money!!!
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Haven't you signed a piece of paper detailing the terms of payment? Three years is unacceptable in any sort of business environment, esports should not be an exception.
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I realise for those of you who know ESL/IEM primarly from SC2 only this might seem like a new problem or something which will be resolved if some noise is made now, but as someone with many years of experience following ESL this is an absolutely systemic problem that as far as I can tell will never be resolved by ESL.
At this point in time I assume they have had a number of money leaks/sponsor problems which mean they are locked in a never-ending cycle of paying old debts with new money, which to be fair is a somewhat common problem amongst esports tournament organisers, because otherwise the only explanation I can see is gross incompetence, which definitely shouldn't be ruled out.
To give some simple examples, for game communities which are really small like CS:Source some of them say they haven't been paid for small cups etc. from many years ago, further back than these SC2 EPS tournaments. More disturbing is that in March of 2012 the IEM champions of 2010 in their lead game, who won the title in March of 2010, still hadn't received the bulk of their prize money from that 2010 win.
From my perspective the real issue here isn't the players not complaining/taking action, it's that ESL themselves haven't taken the appropriate action. The only way this kind of thing will stop is if big tournament organisers actually sue/seek legal action against big sponsors who promise a lot of money for a tournament and then don't pay. Perhaps they don't seek such action because they are afraid to scare off sponsors, in which case esports isn't as viable as they are pretending and we should accept that IMO, or perhaps the sponsor comes back with their own compromise, based on liquidity issues, and says they'll sponsor another tournament and pay it back in future. Whatever the reasons the problem needs to be nipped in the bud where it begins.
All of which doesn't justify the fact ESL habitually lies and claims they think the money is coming any minute, that they don't know it will be months and months or years and years. It also looks really bad that the teams with the best pattern of hassling ESL seem to get their money before others do, making it all look like a game of shuffling money around to the grease the squeakiest wheels.
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I think it is justifiable to sue esl, i mean team alternate has all their player in eps, if they got to court together, i dont see how they can lose the trial.
i think the main problem is that esl has a lot of debt. I dunno.. if you add it up, all eps seasons for all countries since 2011. it could possibly be like 25,000 to 50,000 € aproximately. (just my own estimate, you could actually look up all the eps seasons and add up the price money.
If you sue them and force them to pay the money, i guess chances are quite high that they go bankrupt and nobody gets any money at all.
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On October 31 2012 05:54 Thorin wrote:
I realise for those of you who know ESL/IEM primarly from SC2 only this might seem like a new problem or something which will be resolved if some noise is made now, but as someone with many years of experience following ESL this is an absolutely systemic problem that as far as I can tell will never be resolved by ESL.
At this point in time I assume they have had a number of money leaks/sponsor problems which mean they are locked in a never-ending cycle of paying old debts with new money, which to be fair is a somewhat common problem amongst esports tournament organisers, because otherwise the only explanation I can see is gross incompetence, which definitely shouldn't be ruled out.
To give some simple examples, for game communities which are really small like CS:Source some of them say they haven't been paid for small cups etc. from many years ago, further back than these SC2 EPS tournaments. More disturbing is that in March of 2012 the IEM champions of 2010, who won the title in March of 2010, still hadn't received the bulk of their prize money from that 2010 win.
From my perspective the real issue here isn't the players not complaining/taking action, it's that ESL themselves haven't taken the appropriate action. The only way this kind of thing will stop is if big tournament organisers actually sue/seek legal action against big sponsors who promise a lot of money for a tournament and then don't pay. Perhaps they don't seek such action because they are afraid to scare off sponsors, in which case esports isn't as viable as they are pretending and we should accept that IMO, or perhaps the sponsor comes back with their own compromise, based on liquidity issues, and says they'll sponsor another tournament and pay it back in future. Whatever the reasons the problem needs to be nipped in the bud where it begins.
All of which doesn't justify the fact ESL habitually lies and claims they think the money is coming any minute, that they don't know it will be months and months or years and years. It also looks really bad the teams with the best pattern of hassling ESL seem to get their money before others do, making it all look like a game of shuffling money around to the grease the squeakiest wheels.
I think you got many points right, but not all. The problem is that ESL has alot of debt and is behind with paying with alot of things, so they have to borrow money, pay interest rates etc. and they just dont get out of that. Even if they are breaking even right now, they still dont have the extra money to pay up everything they owe.
The reason why they are in debt is i think not because sponsors dont pay them, but because of missmanagment in the past. That is also the reason why they fired alot of employees i think.
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On October 31 2012 05:57 SpikeStarcraft wrote:
I think it is justifiable to sue esl, i mean team alternate has all their player in eps, if they got to court together, i dont see how they can lose the trial.
i think the main problem is that esl has a lot of debt. I dunno.. if you add it up, all eps seasons for all countries since 2011. it could possibly be like 25,000 to 50,000 € aproximately. (just my own estimate, you could actually look up all the eps seasons and add up the price money.
If you sue them and force them to pay the money, i guess chances are quite high that they go bankrupt and nobody gets any money at all.
But it's not just EPS, it's also IEM, which has much higher prize pools and still the same problem (since they are both done by ESL)
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On October 31 2012 06:05 aike wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2012 05:57 SpikeStarcraft wrote:
I think it is justifiable to sue esl, i mean team alternate has all their player in eps, if they got to court together, i dont see how they can lose the trial.
i think the main problem is that esl has a lot of debt. I dunno.. if you add it up, all eps seasons for all countries since 2011. it could possibly be like 25,000 to 50,000 € aproximately. (just my own estimate, you could actually look up all the eps seasons and add up the price money.
If you sue them and force them to pay the money, i guess chances are quite high that they go bankrupt and nobody gets any money at all. But it's not just EPS, it's also IEM, which has much higher prize pools and still the same problem (since they are both done by ESL)
IEM doesn't have that much more of a prize pool. Terribly low for a "Premier" tournament.
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On October 31 2012 05:26 AlternativeEgo wrote:
Feels like I red this topic one year ago.
a big thread about how ESL doesn't pay out happens a few times a year lol
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On October 31 2012 05:57 SpikeStarcraft wrote:
I think it is justifiable to sue esl, i mean team alternate has all their player in eps, if they got to court together, i dont see how they can lose the trial.
i think the main problem is that esl has a lot of debt. I dunno.. if you add it up, all eps seasons for all countries since 2011. it could possibly be like 25,000 to 50,000 € aproximately. (just my own estimate, you could actually look up all the eps seasons and add up the price money.
If you sue them and force them to pay the money, i guess chances are quite high that they go bankrupt and nobody gets any money at all.
ESL has ALOT more debt than that ^^
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Good decision. Hope this helps them realise that waiting price money for months is just not right.
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ESL being really late with payments isn't news.
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2-3 years adjust for inflation. they owe you more....
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On October 31 2012 06:12 DarKFoRcE wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2012 05:57 SpikeStarcraft wrote:
I think it is justifiable to sue esl, i mean team alternate has all their player in eps, if they got to court together, i dont see how they can lose the trial.
i think the main problem is that esl has a lot of debt. I dunno.. if you add it up, all eps seasons for all countries since 2011. it could possibly be like 25,000 to 50,000 € aproximately. (just my own estimate, you could actually look up all the eps seasons and add up the price money.
If you sue them and force them to pay the money, i guess chances are quite high that they go bankrupt and nobody gets any money at all. ESL has ALOT more debt than that ^^
i rather make a low estimate than a high one. I dont want to spread false rumours
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I dont get how current sc2 pro's could decide in 2010 to go full time sc2 when they should've noticed prize money is not paid out (back then they didn't knew it would take 1-3 years)
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As some players already pointed out ESL has financial problems, so we shouldn't make the pitchforks ready until these players are paid. After that happened the forks can be thrown in my opinion
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On October 31 2012 06:12 DarKFoRcE wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2012 05:57 SpikeStarcraft wrote:
I think it is justifiable to sue esl, i mean team alternate has all their player in eps, if they got to court together, i dont see how they can lose the trial.
i think the main problem is that esl has a lot of debt. I dunno.. if you add it up, all eps seasons for all countries since 2011. it could possibly be like 25,000 to 50,000 € aproximately. (just my own estimate, you could actually look up all the eps seasons and add up the price money.
If you sue them and force them to pay the money, i guess chances are quite high that they go bankrupt and nobody gets any money at all. ESL has ALOT more debt than that ^^
To be perfectly precise, they owed
€ 2.806.775,86 (2010)
€ 2.909.653,04 (2009)
€ 3.361.001,87 (2008)
At least, it seems like their situation is getting better.
source
edit: Obviously that's not only prize money. As a matter of fact pretty much all of it is debt from other sources.
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On October 31 2012 06:15 zimz wrote:
2-3 years adjust for inflation. they owe you more....
by law: 5% for each year they are behind
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That´s hurt the EPS. I mean, this seasion is running right now, and in this time, the 4. EPS cup is live, with 700 € Prize money. And all this money won't be paid out in 3 years. Such a shame for the German Players.
And i think that GoOdy did the right thing. I hope that we can see him more often, never the less!
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On October 31 2012 05:13 Fusilero wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2012 05:07 skeldark wrote:
Oo,
I think this belong in main not tournaments.
I never liked esl (because their confusing website ^^) but i thought they are one of the few that pay instant.
for the protocol:
Lets learn for the past once!
Lets wait until we hear the whole story. I don't think shit needs to get started, wait until ESL has something to say before we stick them on the cross and burn them all. We have to pros perspective, goody, cloud (And according to him his team mates) and ourk have now complained about ESL not paying so let's wait for the other for once. But that's no fun BURN THEM ALL TO THE GROUND.
We already went through this a year ago. How much longer will people let ESL slide on this bullshit
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On October 31 2012 05:19 Sprungjeezy wrote:
Is it just me, or do posts like this "X player says Y" seem kind of like spam. If we cared what the person was doing/saying/whining about, we would follow their twitter/facebook. Now if there was a thread that collaborated all of the players who were upset with ESL's payment schedule or lack of one then it might be interesting to me.
there have been several players over time who have complained about ESL not paying/paying years late, even in WC3 days
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This is bullshit and somebody should take actions against this kind of scams.
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On October 31 2012 06:28 Pyloss wrote:
That´s hurt the EPS. I mean, this seasion is running right now, and in this time, the 4. EPS cup is live, with 700 € Prize money. And all this money won't be paid out in 3 years. Such a shame for the German Players.
And i think that GoOdy did the right thing. I hope that we can see him more often, never the less!
THe money gets paid out in roughly 1.5 years, not 3. lets not be unfair 
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On October 31 2012 06:31 Skullflower wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2012 05:13 Fusilero wrote:On October 31 2012 05:07 skeldark wrote:
Oo,
I think this belong in main not tournaments.
I never liked esl (because their confusing website ^^) but i thought they are one of the few that pay instant.
for the protocol:
Lets learn for the past once!
Lets wait until we hear the whole story. I don't think shit needs to get started, wait until ESL has something to say before we stick them on the cross and burn them all. We have to pros perspective, goody, cloud (And according to him his team mates) and ourk have now complained about ESL not paying so let's wait for the other for once. But that's no fun BURN THEM ALL TO THE GROUND. We already went through this a year ago. How much longer will people let ESL slide on this bullshit
What are you gonna do? Unless they get a huge influx of new sponsors and money, nothing will change and they'll continue to pay their debts after a few years.
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On October 31 2012 06:23 ggrrg wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2012 06:12 DarKFoRcE wrote:On October 31 2012 05:57 SpikeStarcraft wrote:
I think it is justifiable to sue esl, i mean team alternate has all their player in eps, if they got to court together, i dont see how they can lose the trial.
i think the main problem is that esl has a lot of debt. I dunno.. if you add it up, all eps seasons for all countries since 2011. it could possibly be like 25,000 to 50,000 € aproximately. (just my own estimate, you could actually look up all the eps seasons and add up the price money.
If you sue them and force them to pay the money, i guess chances are quite high that they go bankrupt and nobody gets any money at all. ESL has ALOT more debt than that ^^ To be perfectly precise, they owed € 2.806.775,86 (2010)€ 2.909.653,04 (2009) € 3.361.001,87 (2008) At least, it seems like their situation is getting better. sourceedit: Obviously that's not only prize money. As a matter of fact pretty much all of it is debt from other sources.
At least by 2030 when Sc7 is released, they will have gotten rid of all their debt :D
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He should really expand more on this with details, if he throws it out there.
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I think this is pretty serious and has been going on for far too long, so everyone please pay attention:
Price is the cost of a product, like a book, or a car, or a house. "The price of this book is too high."
Prize is an award, like when you win a tournament. "The prize for first place was 100 euro."
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When you get ESL prize money, you know you will get a money boost when you are old and grumpy. Which is quiet nice if you realize that when you are old your country won't have enough young people to pay for your living.
But no need to raise anything as this problem is well known.
And without them we would have nothing here. Well right now TakeTV.
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On October 31 2012 06:43 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
He should really expand more on this with details, if he throws it out there.
Who?
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On October 31 2012 06:45 Starshaped wrote:
I think this is pretty serious and has been going on for far too long, so everyone please pay attention:
Price is the cost of a product, like a book, or a car, or a house. "The price of this book is too high."
Prize is an award, like when you win a tournament. "The prize for first place was 100 euro."
Tssk, silly Brits, we Germans have the same word for both.
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On October 31 2012 06:47 Atrimex wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2012 06:43 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
He should really expand more on this with details, if he throws it out there. Who?
GoOdy obviously...
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On October 31 2012 06:47 Atrimex wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2012 06:43 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
He should really expand more on this with details, if he throws it out there. Who?
Goody?
Amounts, timelines, previous communication.
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On October 31 2012 06:40 DarKFoRcE wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2012 06:28 Pyloss wrote:
That´s hurt the EPS. I mean, this seasion is running right now, and in this time, the 4. EPS cup is live, with 700 € Prize money. And all this money won't be paid out in 3 years. Such a shame for the German Players.
And i think that GoOdy did the right thing. I hope that we can see him more often, never the less! THe money gets paid out in roughly 1.5 years, not 3. lets not be unfair
So you got or others got the money from the season in 2011? If not, 2 years are okay, if you see it from todays point of view.
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I think it's well known that esl really takes a long time to pay their prize money.
Especially EPS, like 3 years unpaid money lol
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On October 31 2012 06:45 Starshaped wrote:
I think this is pretty serious and has been going on for far too long, so everyone please pay attention:
Price is the cost of a product, like a book, or a car, or a house. "The price of this book is too high."
Prize is an award, like when you win a tournament. "The prize for first place was 100 euro."
Do I have to feel ashamed when I say that I just learned a new thing today?
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Ah, i think as long as ESL is paying after a while (even 6 months is okay) i don´t think this is the right decision by goody, otherwise i understand him very good.
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On October 31 2012 06:48 StarVe wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2012 06:45 Starshaped wrote:
I think this is pretty serious and has been going on for far too long, so everyone please pay attention:
Price is the cost of a product, like a book, or a car, or a house. "The price of this book is too high."
Prize is an award, like when you win a tournament. "The prize for first place was 100 euro." Tssk, silly Brits, we Germans have the same word for both.
So do we Swedes, but we're all speaking English here, so let's try to get it right, please.
In fact, I was the guy who got the Zotac site admins to change 'price' to 'prize' on their homepage ^_^''
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On October 31 2012 06:49 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2012 06:47 Atrimex wrote:On October 31 2012 06:43 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
He should really expand more on this with details, if he throws it out there. Who? Goody? Amounts, timelines, previous communication.
Why? He is not playing EPS anymore because they didnt paid the prize money for any EPS-Season since 2 years. Nothing more need to be said.
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No, Goody doesnt have to tell more details, that info is clear enough to follow his decision. Darkforce, Cloud and Satiini seem to understand 100% about Goody's decision.
Only the community wants more details. There are some things what the community doesnt need to understand.
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On October 31 2012 07:02 Dingodile wrote:
No, Goody doesnt have to tell more details, that info is clear enough to follow his decision. Darkforce, Cloud and Satiini seem to understand 100% about Goody's decision.
Only the community wants more details. There are some things what the community doesnt need to understand.
Why exactly? there are many tournements from esl.
Would be intresting for the community to know that there is a good chance they dont get their money if they win.
I have the feeling some people here forget that this is a gameing community not a proplayer fanbase website.
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On October 31 2012 07:02 Dingodile wrote:
No, Goody doesnt have to tell more details, that info is clear enough to follow his decision. Darkforce, Cloud and Satiini seem to understand 100% about Goody's decision.
Only the community wants more details. There are some things what the community doesnt need to understand.
if they dont want to tell the details then they really dont need to say anything. dont badmouth someone and then refuse to give details.
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Haha understandable by Goody. When I was in ESC our teammanager even told us to not attend certain tournies because he said they will never be able to pay up anyway. Its not just ESL, its happening all over the place. Sry to say, but "esports" is mostly a fuckin illusion. Its an industry barely scraping by, with pretty much everybody trying to screw over everybody and the poor players are usually the most gullible ones so guess who ends up at the short end of the stick most of the time? Korea is still miles ahead in this regard afaik, at least they were with BW. But with all the recent drama coming out of korea and players joining foreign teams (would NEVER have happened in BW) its a fairly safe bet to say that things arent like they used to be in Korea as well.
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You cannot get blood from a stone. I think that the reason they do not pay out is because they do not have the money. It's not like E-Sports is really all that lucrative at the moment, they likely spent more money in their earlier stages then they could afford at the time in anticipation of the growth of E-Sports which never really happened. They then had to adjust back, and are paying out prize pools as fast as they can even though they are in the red for about 200k Euros according to an earlier post.
If they are sued for a large amount, they will likely declare bankruptcy as they are already in dept, their assets are mostly comprised of their brand image and the network and connections that have been built up of fans/sponsers, all things that cannot be liquidated. Good luck to the players getting priority over any other lenders in the event that they go bankrupt.
If they do go bankrupt then they essentially lose any value that they had, and there will likely be no money left for the players at all. Suing them is actually a pretty selfish thing to do, as it inherently destroys their core assets.
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On October 31 2012 07:06 dAPhREAk wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2012 07:02 Dingodile wrote:
No, Goody doesnt have to tell more details, that info is clear enough to follow his decision. Darkforce, Cloud and Satiini seem to understand 100% about Goody's decision.
Only the community wants more details. There are some things what the community doesnt need to understand. if they dont want to tell the details then they really dont need to say anything. dont badmouth someone and then refuse to give details.
In what more details should they go after accusing the ESL for not paying prize money?
I guess they could make the latest conversation they had with a representant of the ESL public,
but I'd rather wait for a statement of the ESL before throwing too many things out there.
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On October 31 2012 07:21 JustPassingBy wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2012 07:06 dAPhREAk wrote:On October 31 2012 07:02 Dingodile wrote:
No, Goody doesnt have to tell more details, that info is clear enough to follow his decision. Darkforce, Cloud and Satiini seem to understand 100% about Goody's decision.
Only the community wants more details. There are some things what the community doesnt need to understand. if they dont want to tell the details then they really dont need to say anything. dont badmouth someone and then refuse to give details. In what more details should they go after accusing the ESL for not paying prize money? I guess they could make the latest conversation they had with a representant of the ESL public, but I'd rather wait for a statement of the ESL before throwing too many things out there.
On October 31 2012 06:49 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2012 06:47 Atrimex wrote:On October 31 2012 06:43 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
He should really expand more on this with details, if he throws it out there. Who? Goody? Amounts, timelines, previous communication.
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If ESL has some serious debt, and major trouble paying out their event winners, why do they continue to host events? It would seem almost pointless to carry on if you cannot even give whats promised. It almost seems corrupt to make their money now on the events, and not have to pay any of it out for 1-2 years after. That almost sounds criminal.
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I guess the question is this latest incident within the 90 days or has he been waiting for 5-6 months or more?
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ESL has been known to pay really late for like 6+ years now .. it's kinda ridiculous they still didn't do shit about it :/
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Well I'll just take your word for that Gutz I'm sure you fully comprehend how the German legal system works. I on the other hand don't think it would be such a bad thing for ESL to die. Its one less tournament over saturating the market and its demise might actually be a good thing. Another struggling tournament not paying SC2 players isn't something esports needs right now. We need to know what we have works, less garbage like the ESL will only improve the quality of SC2. Letting bad companies fail is a part of capitalism and as a viewer I'm ready to no longer watch and let ESL fail. Having watched it for over a year now there is nothing that comes to mind that makes me value this tournament group and want to keep it over any of the others. Not the casters not their tournaments.
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more information = more trolling! havnt you learned yet ??
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One would think problems like this wouldn't persist. After all, players can choose to stop playing in tournaments that don't give out money at any given time. It's not like they're losing anything.
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I ordered 9 weeks ago ESL Trusted 1 for my player Zervas and he didn't get it yet and they don't do a fuck.... ESL is a fucking shit organisation.
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Exactly the same thread pretty much. It's not big news ESL is late for payments.
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I never got my £ 10 from EPS UK 
(not that it matters  )
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18 months is just too long... ESL must improve this!
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On October 31 2012 07:35 UrsusRex wrote:
Well I'll just take your word for that Gutz I'm sure you fully comprehend how the German legal system works. I on the other hand don't think it would be such a bad thing for ESL to die. Its one less tournament over saturating the market and its demise might actually be a good thing. Another struggling tournament not paying SC2 players isn't something esports needs right now. We need to know what we have works, less garbage like the ESL will only improve the quality of SC2. Letting bad companies fail is a part of capitalism and as a viewer I'm ready to no longer watch and let ESL fail. Having watched it for over a year now there is nothing that comes to mind that makes me value this tournament group and want to keep it over any of the others. Not the casters not their tournaments.
Germany technically has declared abolition of tax priorities, however there are loopholes around this. If you care to read up on it I've provided a link. I've never watched ESL, I was speaking purely from the perspective of the players as the only way they will likely see any money is if ESL succeeds.
http://www.chasecambria.com/site/journal/article.php?id=191
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ESL are pretty infamous for paying out very late. I've dealt with ESL both in there national leagues such as EPS Germany, and there international tournaments like IEM. And on both types of tournaments they pay out extremely late, and you have to pester them until they pay you.
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On October 31 2012 07:39 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote:
One would think problems like this wouldn't persist. After all, players can choose to stop playing in tournaments that don't give out money at any given time. It's not like they're losing anything.
Theyre losing a chance to gain some publicity to further attract sponsors or other tourneys to invite them so on so forth. Not like any top tier pros would ever consider to play ESL. I really cant believe how naive a lot of the fans are when it comes to the workings of esports. Its an even uglier business than most others because there are tons of "players" (in an economic sense of the word) with huge dependencies and desperate situations which get milked and abused by the "players" above them.
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On October 31 2012 07:39 AngryHobbit wrote:
WTF is pricemoney?
Come on, it's prize money. Don't act dickish towards people whose English isn't native.
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Socke once posted here that he's been waiting for several years now for prize money from different tournaments (ESL among them), with the total amount being about several thousand euros if I remember correctly. Taking into account that Cloud and Darkforce (and probably many more) have made similar experiences, Goody's frustration should neither be surprising nor doubted.
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On October 31 2012 04:42 TheBJ wrote:ESL are notoriously famous for paying late , at least they always do. If u play in their leagues and tournies you have to plan ahead. And im sure goody knows that...
According to TakeTv Forums they didnt pay the money for 18 months. Even if they´re notoriously late with that it´s no excuse in this case.
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We as a community need to be more vocal about demanding a stop to practices like this. Is it any wonder that businesses look at e-sports with skepticism when the financial heart of the system is so clogged with decay and apathy about said decay? This is not the first story we have heard about players having difficulty claiming their winnings and it will likely not be the last.
So why should we be concerned? Legitimate businesses don't tolerate these practices from their clients or their partners and it would be no surprise if the pervasive lethargy regarding financial matters surrounding tournaments were reason enough for some companies to outright dismiss e-sports as a sponsorship opportunity. When businesses give their money to organizations, they want to give it to organizations that they can trust with money, which is clearly not the case for at least some of these tournament organizations. Would you trust your money to an organization which apparently has trouble meeting their financial obligations or would you be worried that they might vanish into the night and take your money with them?
It is one (deplorable) thing for a team to make promises of future benefits that they cannot uphold - players have the ability to research the team and negotiate a strongly worded contract with clauses to protect themselves, but it is quite another for tournament winnings to be withheld for 2(!!!!) years. Tournaments are the heart and soul of the e-sports community; only a small fraction of the best players get salaries that they can live off of; everyone else is fighting for these tournament prizes. At this point, the players should be getting interest on that money, and we all know that they probably need (and certainly deserve) it because there isn't that much money in e-sports, and tournaments that cannot handle their financial obligations are only deterring future investment.
Finally there is the - for lack of a better term - elephant in the room; what if one of these tournament organizers goes broke before paying out their promised winnings? What would that do to the financial reputation of e-sports in general, what would it do to the players counting on those winnings to pay for their cost of living and what unforeseen ripple effects might such an event have? The financial meltdown of 2008 was largely possible due to a lack of financial oversight permitting unchecked shenanigans to erode the pillars of the economy. E-sports is a much less stable and much less resilient economic entity than the United States government. If we continue to allow tournament organizers the leeway to do whatever it is that they are doing with the money that they have promised to their players, we may not be very happy with the results.
TL,DR: We should be very concerned that it has become a common and little complained about business practice to delay paying winnings for anywhere near 2 years.
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On October 31 2012 07:52 Quint wrote:
Goody's frustration should neither be surprising nor doubted.
GoOdy is a relative old player and he could not be in it just for fun like all the kids. I think he is at a point were he figures out if it is worth to stay as a pro gamer or not.
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On October 31 2012 07:20 GuTz wrote:
You cannot get blood from a stone. I think that the reason they do not pay out is because they do not have the money. It's not like E-Sports is really all that lucrative at the moment, they likely spent more money in their earlier stages then they could afford at the time in anticipation of the growth of E-Sports which never really happened. They then had to adjust back, and are paying out prize pools as fast as they can even though they are in the red for about 200k Euros according to an earlier post.
They had a debt of 2.8 Million in 2010 which was 500k lower than 2008 but only 100k lower than in 2009, according to a random guy in a stream chat that dept raised to 5 million by now, i didnt check it myself but it seems logical that they started to invest heavily starting in 2009 anticipating esports to grow with sc2 but it didnt grow as much as they expected.
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On October 31 2012 08:01 harlequin wrote:
Well, if you organize tournaments with prizes attached, you should be able to pay those prizes ASAP.
indeed if you are still trying to get out of debt at least be honest with the community and players and say the prize money will be late instead of just ignoring or saying "its coming"
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yap...
you offer price money... YOU PAY PRICE MONEY!
within a proper time.
On October 31 2012 08:03 Eralur wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2012 07:20 GuTz wrote:
You cannot get blood from a stone. I think that the reason they do not pay out is because they do not have the money. It's not like E-Sports is really all that lucrative at the moment, they likely spent more money in their earlier stages then they could afford at the time in anticipation of the growth of E-Sports which never really happened. They then had to adjust back, and are paying out prize pools as fast as they can even though they are in the red for about 200k Euros according to an earlier post.
They had a debt of 2.8 Million in 2010 which was 500k lower than 2008 but only 100k lower than in 2009, according to a random guy in a stream chat that dept raised to 5 million by now, i didnt check it myself but it seems logical that they started to invest heavily starting in 2009 anticipating esports to grow with sc2 but it didnt grow as much as they expected.
in germany it is called Insolvenzverschleppung.
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On October 31 2012 07:29 eXigent. wrote:
If ESL has some serious debt, and major trouble paying out their event winners, why do they continue to host events? It would seem almost pointless to carry on if you cannot even give whats promised. It almost seems corrupt to make their money now on the events, and not have to pay any of it out for 1-2 years after. That almost sounds criminal.
Because hosting events is all they do? If they quit they have to declare bankruptcy and there wouldnt be an eps anybody could leave...
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On October 31 2012 06:43 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
He should really expand more on this with details, if he throws it out there.
More details would be good for the curious esport followers but i don't think goody has an obligation to do so. He didn't open this thread he just informed his followers on fb about his decision.
i am pretty sure all the prizemoney isn't a lot compared to the ~ 3mio they already are in debts. This seems like a poor way to safe interest.
I can totaly understand that it is very annoying to wait for the money for that amount of time. I wonder why nobody sued ESL for that already. I guess they just didn't publish that.
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We had this discussion one year ago. The point of this thread isnt to state that ESL isnt paying prize money in time. We all know that.
ESL statement from almost a year ago: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=282262
The average prize money delay differs between individual tournaments, but it's not as bad as it's made out to be. Obviously it should not happen. People at ESL are aware of it and are working to make sure everything gets paid and that the delay in prize money goes away.
One year has passed, the problem stayed the same. ESL assured the community that they are aware of the problem and that they take it very seriously one year ago. So why is it still the same issue/ became even worse? At least i cant see any improvement. What has actually been done in that time?
Most progamers seem very familiar with that type of excusing and delaying the issue. A lot of them seem to be reluctant to keep fighting, since they have been fighting for years.
Goody is the first one that actually draws his conclusions and quits EPS. Is that the right answer?
What is the future of ESL? Can they get away with being behind 1,5 - 3 years and is that acceptable as a permanent state of paying out prize money? The issue isnt temporary.
Im not sure what to do. Can you just hope that it will get better eventually? accept that its the way ESL operates? or quitting esl and moving on?
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On October 31 2012 07:35 UrsusRex wrote:
Well I'll just take your word for that Gutz I'm sure you fully comprehend how the German legal system works. I on the other hand don't think it would be such a bad thing for ESL to die. Its one less tournament over saturating the market and its demise might actually be a good thing. Another struggling tournament not paying SC2 players isn't something esports needs right now. We need to know what we have works, less garbage like the ESL will only improve the quality of SC2. Letting bad companies fail is a part of capitalism and as a viewer I'm ready to no longer watch and let ESL fail. Having watched it for over a year now there is nothing that comes to mind that makes me value this tournament group and want to keep it over any of the others. Not the casters not their tournaments.
For the ESL (read: Turtle Entertainment) the latest available data is their balance from 2010. They had large investments in 09/10 which were basically purely financed via loans. Obviously these loans need to be paid back first if they want to continue operations without getting killed by the interest. Because players seldom demand interest to be paid for late payments (and because of finely crafted contracts) TE saves money by paying late and thus can continue to operate. The way it looks right now (mind you, this is before SC2 went into full bloom) the company can run for a while longer but it's a pretty risky venture compared to the overall market. All ESL prize money was paid out eventually so far, something which other organisations couldn't say of themselves...if they still existed (hey CPL!).
TE has existed for longer than any other major e-sports company/league out there and there is a reason for that. They provide a league for basically ANY game on the market, a unique position which no other firm even had the courage to tackle. They have operated without fail for over a decade and you can't tell me they are not valuable to 99% of gaming communities. Their tournaments have premiere quality, regularly creating huge upsets and bringing out new players to shine because of a format which rewards qualifying over being famous and being invited. The guys who run TE are hardcore in the best sense of the word. Ex Quake World players who drove hours to hurl their 17' CRTs into huge halls and play for 100€ prize money and maybe a piece of hardware. Show some respect for your elders.
This is in contrast to what for example MLG (actually 90% of esports companies) are doing, who only run the profitable venue events and don't bother actually building communities. They also finance via huge angel/venture capital investments which to my knowledge (speculation) probably flow into paying out prizes as well. That is an option which TE is probably considering but not taking unless absolutely necessary. I'm pretty sure any investor would make them kill most of their amateur leagues.
Is it right to pay out very late? Surely not. But you can't just let the one organization actually running big events in the whole world (how many others do that? hint, it's easily expressable in binary) die. All communities outside of Korea and the USA would suffer greatly from that. No Feast to come out and challenge Koreans. No dark horse Darkforce. Maybe not even Stephano. Mind now?
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On October 31 2012 08:09 Timerly wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2012 07:35 UrsusRex wrote:
Well I'll just take your word for that Gutz I'm sure you fully comprehend how the German legal system works. I on the other hand don't think it would be such a bad thing for ESL to die. Its one less tournament over saturating the market and its demise might actually be a good thing. Another struggling tournament not paying SC2 players isn't something esports needs right now. We need to know what we have works, less garbage like the ESL will only improve the quality of SC2. Letting bad companies fail is a part of capitalism and as a viewer I'm ready to no longer watch and let ESL fail. Having watched it for over a year now there is nothing that comes to mind that makes me value this tournament group and want to keep it over any of the others. Not the casters not their tournaments. For the ESL (read: Turtle Entertainment) the latest available data is their balance from 2010. They had large investments in 09/10 which were basically purely financed via loans. Obviously these loans need to be paid back first if they want to continue operations without getting killed by the interest. Because players seldom demand interest to be paid for late payments (and because of finely crafted contracts) TE saves money by paying late and thus can continue to operate. The way it looks right now (mind you, this is before SC2 went into full bloom) the company can run for a while longer but it's a pretty risky venture compared to the overall market. All ESL prize money was paid out eventually so far, something which other organisations couldn't say of themselves...if they still existed (hey CPL!). TE has existed for longer than any other major e-sports company/league out there and there is a reason for that. They provide a league for basically ANY game on the market, a unique position which no other firm even had the courage to tackle. They have operated without fail for over a decade and you can't tell me they are not valuable to 99% of gaming communities. Their tournaments have premiere quality, regularly creating huge upsets and bringing out new players to shine because of a format which rewards qualifying over being famous and being invited. The guys who run TE are hardcore in the best sense of the word. Ex Quake World players who drove hours to hurl their 17' CRTs into huge halls and play for 100€ prize money and maybe a piece of hardware. Show some respect for your elders. This is in contrast to what for example MLG (actually 90% of esports companies) are doing, who only run the profitable venue events and don't bother actually building communities. They also finance via huge angel/venture capital investments which to my knowledge (speculation) probably flow into paying out prizes as well. That is an option which TE is probably considering but not taking unless absolutely necessary. I'm pretty sure any investor would make them kill most of their amateur leagues. Is it right to pay out very late? Surely not. But you can't just let the one organization actually running big events in the whole world (how many others do that? hint, it's easily expressable in binary) die. All communities outside of Korea and the USA would suffer greatly from that. No Feast to come out and challenge Koreans. No dark horse Darkforce. Maybe not even Stephano. Mind now?
The ESL is the reason why esports is not developing. I hope the ESL goes down in the future, to make place for a greater company who know to run a successfull business.
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On October 31 2012 08:18 SWayne wrote:
The ESL is the reason why esports is not developing.
Wat?
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Papua New Guinea1058 Posts
On October 31 2012 04:51 Kasaraki wrote:
Why is this in the tournament forum?
Because there's no drama forum for sc2 yet.
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"Their tournaments have premiere quality, regularly creating huge upsets and bringing out new players to shine because of a format which rewards qualifying over being famous and being invited. The guys who run TE are hardcore in the best sense of the word. Ex Quake World players who drove hours to hurl their 17' CRTs into huge halls and play for 100€ prize money and maybe a piece of hardware."
That's wonderful and I wish them growth and success in all those esports, but in SC2 their tournaments are some of the least important with some of the most uninspired casting and the inability or unwillingness to compensate players. There is no sequence of words that makes that acceptable.
"I'm pretty sure any investor would make them kill most of their amateur leagues."
For good reason, people don't pay to watch amateurs, Did you see the team liquid poll on who viewers want to watch? it was overwhelmingly the best players. ESL is not viable for helping SC2 become a sport. It lowers the quality of games and breeds mistrust and resentment within esports.
"Is it right to pay out very late? Surely not. But you can't just let the one organization actually running big events in the whole world (how many others do that? hint, it's easily expressable in binary) die."
All I want is them to stop casting SC2, They contribute nothing in SC2 and actually hurt it. We would lose nothing if they left. Players would still come out for dreamhack and assembly and we would lose the least prestigious tournament in SC2. I'm all on board for that.
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On October 31 2012 08:22 HornyHerring wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2012 04:51 Kasaraki wrote:
Why is this in the tournament forum? Because there's no drama forum for sc2 yet.
drama? serious issue maybe.
and it should be in sc2 generall.
edit: it is now in the right place. and it is no drama. destiny's dick pics are drama maybe but this surely not!
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United Kingdom14103 Posts
MOAR DRAMA
On topic:
If people haven't been payed in two years this decision seems fair enough.
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On October 31 2012 08:25 UrsusRex wrote:
That's wonderful and I wish them growth and success in all those esports, but in SC2 their tournaments are some of the least important with some of the most uninspired casting and the inability or unwillingness to compensate players.
Uninspired casting? They had day9/Tastetosis/Bitterdam ( and Rotterdam actually got into casting with his first caster job at esl )
On October 31 2012 08:25 UrsusRex wrote:
They contribute nothing in SC2 and actually hurt it.
How excatly is it possible in your mind for any event to "hurt" Starcraft2? What the fuck is wrong with you people...
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People need to stfu when it comes to saying esl is the reason esports isn't growing. That's the most nonsense thing i've heard. They are one of the biggest reasons why esports is around today.
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On October 31 2012 08:34 Eralur wrote:
How excatly is it possible in your mind for any event to "hurt" Starcraft2? What the fuck is wrong with you people...
If players choose to play in ESL over another tournament and end up suffering because of it, then I think it'd be fair to say that the SC2 esports scene was 'hurt' by that.
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How excatly is it possible in your mind for any event to "hurt" Starcraft2? What the fuck is wrong with you people...
It simply has to do with the environment their actions create. In this case mistrust from viewers and resentment from players who go unpaid. I view this as hurting SC2 and so do many people. Its a legitimate point. Where's yours?
Uninspired casting? They had day9/Tastetosis/Bitterdam ( and Rotterdam actually got into casting with his first caster job at esl )
Who they had at whatever point in the past for whatever brief period of time doesn't interest me and has no bearing on their quality of service now. Now they have casters like Khaelaris and ones who are even more uninteresting to the point I can't even remember their names even though I've seen them cast. I also don't enjoy artosis and his casting at the last IEM if I recall correctly was pretty boring, maybe because he didn't have tasteless but either way it didn't add to ESL's quality or value.
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On October 31 2012 08:18 SWayne wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2012 08:09 Timerly wrote:On October 31 2012 07:35 UrsusRex wrote:
Well I'll just take your word for that Gutz I'm sure you fully comprehend how the German legal system works. I on the other hand don't think it would be such a bad thing for ESL to die. Its one less tournament over saturating the market and its demise might actually be a good thing. Another struggling tournament not paying SC2 players isn't something esports needs right now. We need to know what we have works, less garbage like the ESL will only improve the quality of SC2. Letting bad companies fail is a part of capitalism and as a viewer I'm ready to no longer watch and let ESL fail. Having watched it for over a year now there is nothing that comes to mind that makes me value this tournament group and want to keep it over any of the others. Not the casters not their tournaments. For the ESL (read: Turtle Entertainment) the latest available data is their balance from 2010. They had large investments in 09/10 which were basically purely financed via loans. Obviously these loans need to be paid back first if they want to continue operations without getting killed by the interest. Because players seldom demand interest to be paid for late payments (and because of finely crafted contracts) TE saves money by paying late and thus can continue to operate. The way it looks right now (mind you, this is before SC2 went into full bloom) the company can run for a while longer but it's a pretty risky venture compared to the overall market. All ESL prize money was paid out eventually so far, something which other organisations couldn't say of themselves...if they still existed (hey CPL!). TE has existed for longer than any other major e-sports company/league out there and there is a reason for that. They provide a league for basically ANY game on the market, a unique position which no other firm even had the courage to tackle. They have operated without fail for over a decade and you can't tell me they are not valuable to 99% of gaming communities. Their tournaments have premiere quality, regularly creating huge upsets and bringing out new players to shine because of a format which rewards qualifying over being famous and being invited. The guys who run TE are hardcore in the best sense of the word. Ex Quake World players who drove hours to hurl their 17' CRTs into huge halls and play for 100€ prize money and maybe a piece of hardware. Show some respect for your elders. This is in contrast to what for example MLG (actually 90% of esports companies) are doing, who only run the profitable venue events and don't bother actually building communities. They also finance via huge angel/venture capital investments which to my knowledge (speculation) probably flow into paying out prizes as well. That is an option which TE is probably considering but not taking unless absolutely necessary. I'm pretty sure any investor would make them kill most of their amateur leagues. Is it right to pay out very late? Surely not. But you can't just let the one organization actually running big events in the whole world (how many others do that? hint, it's easily expressable in binary) die. All communities outside of Korea and the USA would suffer greatly from that. No Feast to come out and challenge Koreans. No dark horse Darkforce. Maybe not even Stephano. Mind now? The ESL is the reason why esports is not developing. I hope the ESL goes down in the future, to make place for a greater company who know to run a successfull business.
It's just plain stupid to say the ESL/Turtle is the reason esports is not developing. Without them e-sports in Germany and also in a lot of other countries in Europe would have no built structures and almost no events. Before Dreamhack ventured out of Sweden there was basically nothing besides ESL events. They also brought esports into German media and work together with partners in media and politics to support it even more. Thanks to IEM esports was also brought to people and places no other organisation would care about.
Yes, late pay of prize money is very bad and has hurt their reputation but to take away all they've done because of it is even worse.
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There was a thread that ranked IEM as the worst when it comes to paying prize money.
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On October 31 2012 05:19 Sprungjeezy wrote:
Is it just me, or do posts like this "X player says Y" seem kind of like spam. If we cared what the person was doing/saying/whining about, we would follow their twitter/facebook. Now if there was a thread that collaborated all of the players who were upset with ESL's payment schedule or lack of one then it might be interesting to me.
dont be an idiot. I dont follow every pro in the hopes they might say something entertaining. Just like I don't follow Bill Cosby or obama on twitter, but if Bill threatens to woop Obama's ass, I would like to hear about it.
but if we do what you suggest, we need to start a thread about movie star's who threaten the president JUST IN CASE someone does, that way we can post it there instead of creating an individual thread about it.
see how retarded this sounds?
We are over saturated with starcraft tournies anyway. If they don't pay out, don't give them the viewership.
THANKS OP, for bringing this to my attention.
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On October 31 2012 08:43 UrsusRex wrote:Show nested quote +
How excatly is it possible in your mind for any event to "hurt" Starcraft2? What the fuck is wrong with you people...
It simply has to do with the environment their actions create. In this case mistrust from viewers and resentment from players who go unpaid. I view this as hurting SC2 and so do many people. Its a legitimate point. Where's yours? Show nested quote +Uninspired casting? They had day9/Tastetosis/Bitterdam ( and Rotterdam actually got into casting with his first caster job at esl ) Who they had at whatever point in the past for whatever brief period of time doesn't interest me and has no bearing on their quality of service now. Now they have casters like Khaelaris and ones who are even more uninteresting to the point I can't even remember their names even though I've seen them cast. I also don't enjoy artosis and his casting at the last IEM if I recall correctly was pretty boring, maybe because he didn't have tasteless but either way it didn't add to ESL's quality or value.
People are shitting themselves over stuff that is far beyond the actual issue. If you're concerned about the late payments hurting the scene that's legitimate, bashing IEM over their choice of casters (which is usually pretty good and more importantly international/multilingual) makes no sense. Do you seriously consider that as the number one reason they're not a quality tournament in your opinion?
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Good call by Goody to stand up and quit. Kind of trashy to not play the price money to the player by ESL. Very disappointed that nothing changed -.-
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Makes me wonder what the internal finances of some of these esports organizations looks like. I'm thinking MLG is probably the only big one turning a profit at this point.
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On October 31 2012 08:43 UrsusRex wrote:Show nested quote +
How excatly is it possible in your mind for any event to "hurt" Starcraft2? What the fuck is wrong with you people...
It simply has to do with the environment their actions create. In this case mistrust from viewers and resentment from players who go unpaid. I view this as hurting SC2 and so do many people. Its a legitimate point. Where's yours? Show nested quote +Uninspired casting? They had day9/Tastetosis/Bitterdam ( and Rotterdam actually got into casting with his first caster job at esl ) Who they had at whatever point in the past for whatever brief period of time doesn't interest me and has no bearing on their quality of service now. Now they have casters like Khaelaris and ones who are even more uninteresting to the point I can't even remember their names even though I've seen them cast. I also don't enjoy artosis and his casting at the last IEM if I recall correctly was pretty boring, maybe because he didn't have tasteless but either way it didn't add to ESL's quality or value.
My point is that there arent 'actions' just this single one which is explainable given the circumstances all im saying is that youre overreacting way to much, but i guess thats not too suprising given that the sc2 community really likes to be 'offended'
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You really think there wouldnt be any other company if the ESL doesnt exists? Before you flame my post, you should really consider the facts. There hasnt been any real changes since 2008 for example. Technical problems at events arent rare, the German Pro Series has been neglected, the ESL TV Stream has one of the worst quality out there. Seems like the ESL doesn't want to compete with the quality of Dreamhack TV. The prizemoney is still the same. Where is the Starcraft version of the WC3L?
To say "the ESL cant do something, the sponsors dont pay the money" is just dumb. How can you host a big esports event without having money on your bank? Shouldn't a company like the ESL have the money BEFORE they host the events? When the ESL is professional as you say, shouldn't the sponsors trust them and pay the money beforehand?
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On October 31 2012 08:57 iamho wrote:
Makes me wonder what the internal finances of some of these esports organizations looks like. I'm thinking MLG is probably the only big one turning a profit at this point.
Seriously? They only exist because of venture capital and have been trying all these PPV-models to find a way of somehow making a profit. Without their VC they'd face some serious problems.
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On October 31 2012 08:03 Eralur wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2012 07:20 GuTz wrote:
You cannot get blood from a stone. I think that the reason they do not pay out is because they do not have the money. It's not like E-Sports is really all that lucrative at the moment, they likely spent more money in their earlier stages then they could afford at the time in anticipation of the growth of E-Sports which never really happened. They then had to adjust back, and are paying out prize pools as fast as they can even though they are in the red for about 200k Euros according to an earlier post.
They had a debt of 2.8 Million in 2010 which was 500k lower than 2008 but only 100k lower than in 2009, according to a random guy in a stream chat that dept raised to 5 million by now, i didnt check it myself but it seems logical that they started to invest heavily starting in 2009 anticipating esports to grow with sc2 but it didnt grow as much as they expected.
The latest financial data released is from 2010. Unless that guy works in the financial department of Turtle Entertainment or is an owner (Gesellschaftler) there is no way for him to know, their current financial situation.
On October 31 2012 08:04 Anta wrote:yap... you offer price money... YOU PAY PRICE MONEY! within a proper time. Show nested quote +On October 31 2012 08:03 Eralur wrote:On October 31 2012 07:20 GuTz wrote:
You cannot get blood from a stone. I think that the reason they do not pay out is because they do not have the money. It's not like E-Sports is really all that lucrative at the moment, they likely spent more money in their earlier stages then they could afford at the time in anticipation of the growth of E-Sports which never really happened. They then had to adjust back, and are paying out prize pools as fast as they can even though they are in the red for about 200k Euros according to an earlier post.
They had a debt of 2.8 Million in 2010 which was 500k lower than 2008 but only 100k lower than in 2009, according to a random guy in a stream chat that dept raised to 5 million by now, i didnt check it myself but it seems logical that they started to invest heavily starting in 2009 anticipating esports to grow with sc2 but it didnt grow as much as they expected. in germany it is called Insolvenzverschleppung.
Well, to be perfectly fair, they also had €1.2 million in outstanding money in 2010 (Forderungen). So they owed 2.8 mio but somebody owed them 1.2 mio. Also, it is quite common to have tons of liabilities. For example, you take a loan to start-up your business. You are expected to pay it in say 10 years. During the whole period this loan is liability, but your company can still be profitable.
Source (still the same)
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On October 31 2012 09:01 SWayne wrote:
To say "the ESL cant do something, the sponsors dont pay the money" is just dumb. How can you host a big esports event without having money on your bank? Shouldn't a company like the ESL have the money BEFORE they host the events? When the ESL is professional as you say, shouldn't the sponsors trust them and pay the money beforehand?
They don't and shouldn't, welcome to modern capitalism.
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The best analogy to the ESL is a bank that is "too big to fail". Some people say it should go down. Others fear that the consequences will be too big and will lead to a collapse of the European scene. ESL declaring bankruptcy is the closest thing to "esports dying - in Europe" imaginable.
Other posts already mentioned why ESL is important beyond their premier tournaments. Just one more thought: Try to think of European players that did NOT start out (benefitted alot) with an ESL organized league/tournament? I can't think of many. Basically all WC3 players solely existed because of the ESL. I picked up Stephano's and Nerchio's name thanks to the GO4SC2s. Would these players choose the same path if there wasn't an ESL? Who knows.
Make no mistake, I find the practice of not paying out players in reasonable time very bad as well. But I don't think anyone could fill the void ESL would leave. Dreamhack is our equivalent to MLGs. Awesome tournaments, but it's not the "daily bread" of the average (semi-)pro and doesn't really establish new talents. Who else? A lot of small fishes in the pond that only organize small one-off tournaments and showmatches. I fear that the European scene will quickly turn more into the American one. Where popularity is often more important than skill and only a few sponsored players can get their name out there by traveling to the events which prevents new talent from entering the scene.
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I don't have the effort to translate my text in english, but i would like to share my result;
[spoiler=german text] 4. Sonstige Rückstellungen
In den sonstigen Rückstellungen sind im Wesentlichen Rückstellungen für Urlaub und Provisionen enthalten.
:wtf:
Sonstige Verbindlichkeiten 1.520.792,87 €
:lol:
Das sind 53,56 % von den 2.806.775,86 € Verbindlichkeiten* (Schulden) die für private Zwecke der "privilgierteren" Gesellschafter gemacht wurden.
In die eigene Tasche gewirtschaftet :thumbdown:
*Verbindlichkeiten sind Schulden eines Unternehmes.[/spoiler]
So, after reading the report from 2010, they had depts of 2.806.775,86 €.
53,56 % of this depts, were mentioned as "vacation and kickbacks"
In other words: 50% of the overall depts were made by associates for their own benefits additionally to their generelly income.
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People are shitting themselves over stuff that is far beyond the actual issue. If you're concerned about the late payments hurting the scene that's legitimate, bashing IEM over their choice of casters (which is usually pretty good and more importantly international/multilingual) makes no sense. Do you seriously consider that as the number one reason they're not a quality tournament in your opinion?
I can't comment on their non English casting but their regular casting has been noticeably less exciting than other tournaments when i watched it. There is also fewer successful professional players in their tournaments and they have a smaller price pool and focus on multiple esports in a region that already has better solely dedicated SC2 leagues. I just think ESL has the least to offer and since I think we are already over saturated with SC2 tournaments I would be happy to see ESL no longer casting SC2. I think that's a decision that benefits the entire SC2 scene. The non payment to players is just the final straw for me to no longer watch the least valuable SC2 tournament.
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On October 31 2012 09:01 SWayne wrote:
To say "the ESL cant do something, the sponsors dont pay the money" is just dumb. How can you host a big esports event without having money on your bank? Shouldn't a company like the ESL have the money BEFORE they host the events? When the ESL is professional as you say, shouldn't the sponsors trust them and pay the money beforehand?
I have no insider knowledge or anything, but certainly in some industries sponsors can pay different amounts based on the number of views, and hence wouldn't pay until after the event.
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On October 31 2012 06:55 ACrow wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2012 06:45 Starshaped wrote:
I think this is pretty serious and has been going on for far too long, so everyone please pay attention:
Price is the cost of a product, like a book, or a car, or a house. "The price of this book is too high."
Prize is an award, like when you win a tournament. "The prize for first place was 100 euro." Do I have to feel ashamed when I say that I just learned a new thing today?
Of course not. You should be more ashamed if you did not learn something new every day.
Anyway, still looking forward to watching Goody compete, wherever it may happen to be. He's always a fun player to watch.
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You need to keep in mind that EPS is basically German only scene.
We have teams like Alternate who are only interested in the German market, the same can be said about XMG and probably ESC.
An atn player earlier said in this thread: "I only participate, because my sponsor wants me to".
It's sponsor exposure to the German audience. Having players play in the local (German) league (EPS) might be enough of a reason to sponsor players who arent good enough on an international level.
Without those leagues there's no reason to sponsor those players.
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My point is that there arent 'actions' just this single one which is explainable given the circumstances all im saying is that youre overreacting way to much, but i guess thats not too suprising given that the sc2 community really likes to be 'offended'
This isn't a single action it is a consistent behavior from IEM and add to that their poor player quality, lower price pools, bad casting and we get the worst tournament in SC2. That's not me being offended. This is how genuinely view the ESL. I believe they are a negative influence because of their poor quality of games and decisions towards the players. Just because I don't buy in to ESL's self serving excuses doesn't mean I'm out to demonize them. I'm sure they have many reasons for what they do, but I don't care. Bottom line is they diminish SC2 and for that I support them moving on.
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On October 31 2012 09:15 Zocat wrote:
You need to keep in mind that EPS is basically German only scene.
We have teams like Alternate who are only interested in the German market, the same can be said about XMG and probably ESC.
An atn player earlier said in this thread: "I only participate, because my sponsor wants me to".
It's sponsor exposure to the German audience. Having players play in the local (German) league (EPS) might be enough of a reason to sponsor players who arent good enough on an international level.
Without those leagues there's no reason to sponsor those players.
Yes. The german EPS is very good for us german players, without it i think we would be worse off. I actually think Goody will continue to play EPS, he was probably just angry.
The prizemoney being paid out so late is of course really annoying and it shouldnt happen, but there is not much that can be done about it unfortunately...
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On October 31 2012 09:17 DarKFoRcE wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2012 09:15 Zocat wrote:
You need to keep in mind that EPS is basically German only scene.
We have teams like Alternate who are only interested in the German market, the same can be said about XMG and probably ESC.
An atn player earlier said in this thread: "I only participate, because my sponsor wants me to".
It's sponsor exposure to the German audience. Having players play in the local (German) league (EPS) might be enough of a reason to sponsor players who arent good enough on an international level.
Without those leagues there's no reason to sponsor those players. Yes. The german EPS is very good for us german players, without it i think we would be worse off. I actually think Goody will continue to play EPS, he was probably just angry. The prizemoney being paid out so late is of course really annoying and it shouldnt happen, but there is not much that can be done about it unfortunately...
it seems kind of unfair to be forced to play in a tournament for a nonexistent prize pool, or lose the actual source of income. at the same time i cannot blame the sponsors in this regard either.
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On October 31 2012 09:18 Striker.superfreunde wrote:Your prize money is here
you actually know what "urlaubsrückstellung" means? It means they are entitled to holidays, but they have not taken it in this accounting period -> they have to have reserves for when they actually make holidays.
the interesting part of this whole thing is:
9. Ergebnis der gewöhnlichen Geschäftstätigkeit -1.918.568,43 -2.835.410,2
Profit from ordinary activities
2010: -1.9 mio €
2011: -2.8 mio €
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On October 31 2012 09:07 Striker.superfreunde wrote:I don't have the effort to translate my text in english, but i would like to share my result; + Show Spoiler [german text] + 4. Sonstige Rückstellungen In den sonstigen Rückstellungen sind im Wesentlichen Rückstellungen für Urlaub und Provisionen enthalten. :wtf: Sonstige Verbindlichkeiten 1.520.792,87 €:lol: Das sind 53,56 % von den 2.806.775,86 € Verbindlichkeiten* (Schulden) die für private Zwecke der "privilgierteren" Gesellschafter gemacht wurden. In die eigene Tasche gewirtschaftet :thumbdown: *Verbindlichkeiten sind Schulden eines Unternehmes. So, after reading the report from 2010, they had depts of 2.806.775,86 €. 53,56 % of this depts, were mentioned as "vacation and kickbacks"In other words: 50% of the overall depts were made by associates for their own benefits additionally to their generelly income.
This is plain wrong!
There is a huge difference between "Rückstellungen" (provisions) and "Verbindlichkeiten" (liabilities)! None of the €2.8 mio are provisions! The claim that "53,56 % of this depts, were mentioned as "vacation and kickbacks" is completely wrong. The 2.8 mio are purely liabilities! Out of the liabilities there are only 21 thousand that are towards the owners. The 1.5 mio are other liabilities. As far as the provisions are concerned, there were 350k in 2010 (and they have nothing to do with the 2.8 mio in liabilities), but it is not listed how much of them are "other provisions" (sonstige Rückstellungen) and are meant for "vacation and kickbacks". For all we know, none of them are.
(Also, provisions i probably not the correct translation. "Rückstellungen" is normally money that is put aside in order to be used to modernize or repair your technology in the future.)
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On October 31 2012 09:18 Striker.superfreunde wrote:Your prize money is here
Well, I dont think this is a smart point at all! I just checked there Homepage and it says that they have over 135 people working for them. That means that it is salary in the average amount of about 925€ per person per month.
I dont think, and nobody in there right state of mind could in IMHO, that this is a very high salary for people that work most likely crazy hours all around the week, since the events are normally on weekends and over a couple of days.
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Ok, sorry for missinformations
It's late, and i haven't looked into any report for years.
Sorry guys! >.<
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Well since there is a legal obligation in Germany to publish the annual statement of a company, you can look it up at www.bundesanzeiger.de if you search for Turtle Entertainment. Its only in german, dunno if a google translation would work.
You can see the annual statement from 2010:
some small facts:
in 2010 they had:
2.806.775,86 € of liabilities ( 2.8 million €)
On November 04 2011 04:57 Carmac wrote: In total ESL owes 32,870 EUR and 400 USD to StarCraft II players.
1.024 k € accounts receivable (1.0 million €)
1.337 k € equity (1.3 million €)
operating (dis-)profit of
-1.985 k € ( - 2.0 million €) in 2010
-2.835 k € (-2.8 million €) in 2009
9.932 k € total net sales ( 9.9 million €)
- expenses
3.307 million € salaries and wages
8.707 million € other operating expenses (could be anything^^)
cash flow
injection of equity of
2.162 million € in 2010
3.500 million € in 2009
cash outflow in 2010
0.579 million € investment in financial assets
0.066 million € investment in tangible fixed assets
therefore an equity ratio of 29,3%, which is a decent value but they could only achieve it because there were investors injecting more than 5 million € from 2009-2010 into the company to compensate those losses. Otherwise im not sure if they could have avoided going bankrupt (speculation).
Thats the newest information you can find on the web, no idea how it developed the past two years.
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I received a notification about prize money a couple months ago from them. It'd been so long I didn't even remember they owed me anything.
Couldn't even remember which tournament it was about. But at least they paid. Only problem is, if they ever go bankrupt, those backlogged payment recipients for 1+ year are all fucked.
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Uh oh, here we go again. Why is it that the organizational skills of these organizations are downright embarrassing sometimes? At first, it just seemed like one would be inclined to protest how much pitch-forking there is (and trust me, obviously it does abound), but all things considered, most of those concerns turned out to be quite legitimate. It does seem like all these scandals stem from very real failures of organizations/teams/what have you... implying, of course, that the failures in management/organization are quite large in number as well as magnitude.
Since January 2011? Really? That's pretty bad lol.
But looking at how they're doing...wow, can't even really afford to pay :X YET on the other hand, this also means that paying the players is small money compared to other expenditures.
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regardless of their financial situation, the figures involved show, that the outstanding prize money is just peanuts compared to there overall operation expenses and revenues, so it is really badass to betray the players like this.
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On October 31 2012 09:48 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:
regardless of their financial situation, the figures involved show, that the outstanding prize money is just peanuts compared to there overall operation expenses and revenues, so it is really badass to betray the players like this.
The thing is, the players are the ones that can do the least. They kinda have to pay their employees, but players there is enough replacement
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can anyone explain why if you search for turtle entertainment in google finance you get Playmates Toys Limited?
can't find any connection between the 2 so far
regardless of their financial situation, the figures involved show, that the outstanding prize money is just peanuts compared to there overall operation expenses and revenues, so it is really badass to betray the players like this.
Do the math, you'll see there isn't much leftover for prize money.
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On October 31 2012 09:42 LaLuSh wrote:
Only problem is, if they ever go bankrupt, those backlogged payment recipients for 1+ year are all fucked.
Sooner or later this might be the case. They are making new tournaments every month without having the money for them right now but always are sure they will have in the future.
They either will go bankrupt (within the next years or decades) or need to get a huge financial plus to be able to host new tournaments with having the prize money promised available.
Would be very sad to lose such a huge eventhoster though, they brought me into esports and i supported them for years with my money (until they cut wc3).
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On October 31 2012 05:57 SpikeStarcraft wrote:
I think it is justifiable to sue esl, i mean team alternate has all their player in eps, if they got to court together, i dont see how they can lose the trial.
i think the main problem is that esl has a lot of debt. I dunno.. if you add it up, all eps seasons for all countries since 2011. it could possibly be like 25,000 to 50,000 € aproximately. (just my own estimate, you could actually look up all the eps seasons and add up the price money.
If you sue them and force them to pay the money, i guess chances are quite high that they go bankrupt and nobody gets any money at all.
What's the point of suing them if they're broke? What do you hope to accomplish? Even if you were to win the lawsuit, you'd still have to figure out how to collect the money.
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ive always wondered why some players just dont boycott the ESL together? why is it just Goody? why dont they talk to each other and systematically boycott it or do something else against it(like the TL-Post by ClouD) to raise some awareness?
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Sounds like they're broke.
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On October 31 2012 16:38 Daumen wrote:
ive always wondered why some players just dont boycott the ESL together? why is it just Goody? why dont they talk to each other and systematically boycott it or do something else against it(like the TL-Post by ClouD) to raise some awareness?
It's their teams that decide not to boycott, which means the teams are half the bad guys here. Don't think these teams care if their players get money from tournaments. As long as the players advertise the brands and sponsors, teams are fine with this situation.
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On October 31 2012 11:20 BombaySensei wrote:
What's the point of suing them if they're broke? What do you hope to accomplish? Even if you were to win the lawsuit, you'd still have to figure out how to collect the money.
get their stuff (pc's,laptops etc) before others can.
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It sounds to me like what they are doing is holding on to the money for the tournaments for as long as possible and siphoning off the interest on the float. This is a common practice among publishers who are very open about paying writers on delay to collect money from the float.
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do they at least pay interest? oterhwise all the players are losing money to inflation over the course of 1,5/2 years..
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On October 31 2012 09:42 LaLuSh wrote:
I received a notification about prize money a couple months ago from them. It'd been so long I didn't even remember they owed me anything.
Couldn't even remember which tournament it was about. But at least they paid. Only problem is, if they ever go bankrupt, those backlogged payment recipients for 1+ year are all fucked.
I think this is the biggest problem: The payments are so late, that you cannot even tell whether you get them at all.
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I have won an ESL event for swiss/austria 1 1/2 years ago and also still haven't gotten my 600€ from ESL yet
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On October 31 2012 09:49 DarKFoRcE wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2012 09:48 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:
regardless of their financial situation, the figures involved show, that the outstanding prize money is just peanuts compared to there overall operation expenses and revenues, so it is really badass to betray the players like this. The thing is, the players are the ones that can do the least. They kinda have to pay their employees, but players there is enough replacement
but it's very bad marketing for them and it is backfiring.
they should treat the players like kings, because they spread the word and not the employers.
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bring out the pitch forks. . .
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We have an angry mob, all we need are pitchforks!
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On October 31 2012 16:57 smokeyhoodoo wrote:
Sounds like they're broke.
don´t think so. It´s a part of their business plan to keep and work with the prize money as long as possible.
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On October 31 2012 17:42 kinglemon wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2012 09:49 DarKFoRcE wrote:On October 31 2012 09:48 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:
regardless of their financial situation, the figures involved show, that the outstanding prize money is just peanuts compared to there overall operation expenses and revenues, so it is really badass to betray the players like this. The thing is, the players are the ones that can do the least. They kinda have to pay their employees, but players there is enough replacement but it's very bad marketing for them and it is backfiring. they should treat the players like kings, because they spread the word and not the employers.
Nothing like this will happen. Bad marketing...and backfiring? lolz...
There are/where so many tournies out there with late or no payments at all and in fact nothing happened and nothing will happen to them. Theywill just keep on running their tournaments
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slightly offtopic:
if esl ever wants to cut down expenses and save money
I suggest they get rid of those terrible "hosts" they have
whenever they´re casting offline deciders/cupfinals from their own studio like last weekend.
i get the idea of "production value" and putting on stuff inbetween games, but these two (the woman especially, sorry)...quite awkward, little knowledge.
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Its 2012. There is no NEED anymore for expensive studios to broadcast matches.
The german EPS is pretty low priority nowadays, so maybe the teams should start their own league. Just look at ESC, Alternate or Mouz. They have pretty much all the big names in the german scene under contract, like Socke,Hasu,Darkforce,Goody or Cloud.
Sponsor a own league, boycott the EPS, provide money that gets paid much faster and the other known players will follow. Now that TaKe is independant they can even hire him for the casting/production and their audience would not be smaller, as he provides the german casting for EPS anyway.
With a much better (maybe even bigger?) tournament they would even have a improved way to show off their sponsors.
The situation in germany because of the casting and "gaminghouse" provides by TaKe is so good (the players visit him often anyway) that its a shame its not used to its full potential in such circumstances.
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Even when I won a freaking mousepad it took them 8 months to send it to me.
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On October 31 2012 20:13 yoshi7319 wrote:
slightly offtopic:
if esl ever wants to cut down expenses and save money
I suggest they get rid of those terrible "hosts" they have
whenever they´re casting offline deciders/cupfinals from their own studio like last weekend.
i get the idea of "production value" and putting on stuff inbetween games, but these two (the woman especially, sorry)...quite awkward, little knowledge.
They already cut every host except those two. And they have both a Counter-Strike background. ESLTV's SC2 department seems to be English only. The host's job is to get the players talking and the woman's job is to interact with the community, but nonetheless they really should get more insight into SC2 and its scene.
Worst moment: "Erm... there will be a Zerg... patch... What does the community think? Will it make Zerg more... playable and stronger than how it is now?" - about the Heart of the Swarm expansion.
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I don't understand, doesn't Germany have any bankruptcy laws?
In Sweden, if a company owes you any amount of $, you can file a request with the bankruptcy bureau if they refuse to pay(only if you have solid grounds for demanding payment), and the government will force the company to pay, and if they don't they declare them bankrupt. Is there no such thing that can be done in regards to the ESL? These scammers shouldn't be allowed to operate.
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On October 31 2012 09:37 SpikeStarcraft wrote:Well since there is a legal obligation in Germany to publish the annual statement of a company, you can look it up at www.bundesanzeiger.de if you search for Turtle Entertainment. Its only in german, dunno if a google translation would work. [...] Thats the newest information you can find on the web, no idea how it developed the past two years.
the penalty for not publishing your annual statement in a timely manner is ultimately capped at 25,000€ - that's low enough that many companies don't publish their annual statements as a matter of policy (usually because they don't want to make information about their financial health, R&D expenses, ... available to competitors).
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I wonder why the players don't sue Turtle Entertainment (EPS). Is there something in the general terms of contracts that says EPS will pay somewhere in the undefined future?
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On October 31 2012 20:33 Nihilnovi wrote:
I don't understand, doesn't Germany have any bankruptcy laws?
In Sweden, if a company owes you any amount of $, you can file a request with the bankruptcy bureau if they refuse to pay(only if you have solid grounds for demanding payment), and the government will force the company to pay, and if they don't they declare them bankrupt. Is there no such thing that can be done in regards to the ESL? These scammers shouldn't be allowed to operate.
of course there is such law.
and if you would sue them they would probably pay these peanuts $xk, make more debts somewhere else and go on =)
but as DF said, this is the case since forever with TE. Let's just wait until Intel stops shipping them IEM money and they'll finally go down.
(and no, I don't think the world needs them anymore. they did good work in the past - like long long ago - but their events arent just that premier anymore, their website suxx big time and ...)
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On October 31 2012 20:29 SinCitta wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2012 20:13 yoshi7319 wrote:
slightly offtopic:
if esl ever wants to cut down expenses and save money
I suggest they get rid of those terrible "hosts" they have
whenever they´re casting offline deciders/cupfinals from their own studio like last weekend.
i get the idea of "production value" and putting on stuff inbetween games, but these two (the woman especially, sorry)...quite awkward, little knowledge. They already cut every host except those two. And they have both a Counter-Strike background. ESLTV's SC2 department seems to be English only. The host's job is to get the players talking and the woman's job is to interact with the community, but nonetheless they really should get more insight into SC2 and its scene. Worst moment: "Erm... there will be a Zerg... patch... What does the community think? Will it make Zerg more... playable and stronger than how it is now?" - about the Heart of the Swarm expansion.
My impression was the total opposite. They had a very high production value for a 5.000 viewer show. Maybe too high.
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On October 31 2012 09:17 DarKFoRcE wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2012 09:15 Zocat wrote:
You need to keep in mind that EPS is basically German only scene.
We have teams like Alternate who are only interested in the German market, the same can be said about XMG and probably ESC.
An atn player earlier said in this thread: "I only participate, because my sponsor wants me to".
It's sponsor exposure to the German audience. Having players play in the local (German) league (EPS) might be enough of a reason to sponsor players who arent good enough on an international level.
Without those leagues there's no reason to sponsor those players. Yes. The german EPS is very good for us german players, without it i think we would be worse off. I actually think Goody will continue to play EPS, he was probably just angry.
and he was not angry about the EPS. I think there is a bigger problem then not paid prizemoney. Its called zerg ;-)
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On October 31 2012 20:33 Nihilnovi wrote:
I don't understand, doesn't Germany have any bankruptcy laws?
In Sweden, if a company owes you any amount of $, you can file a request with the bankruptcy bureau if they refuse to pay(only if you have solid grounds for demanding payment), and the government will force the company to pay, and if they don't they declare them bankrupt. Is there no such thing that can be done in regards to the ESL? These scammers shouldn't be allowed to operate.
If you would go to a lawyer you will get your money inkstand.
Thats how they all do it. Who serious complain get his money who dont have to wait even longer.
Because many people are lazy and are afraid of sue someone it pays out.
The question is if they make tournaments with prizemoney they dont have.
If they indeed pay of old depts with money from new events, this is only against business law, its a crime you go into jail for.
What i just dont get is why so many people let them do it.
Call them out in their own shows all the time say you sue them after they dont pay one day over limit.
It does not even cost you money because they have to pay your lawyer not you.
You will see you are allays the first one who gets paid.
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On October 31 2012 21:27 skeldark wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2012 20:33 Nihilnovi wrote:
I don't understand, doesn't Germany have any bankruptcy laws?
In Sweden, if a company owes you any amount of $, you can file a request with the bankruptcy bureau if they refuse to pay(only if you have solid grounds for demanding payment), and the government will force the company to pay, and if they don't they declare them bankrupt. Is there no such thing that can be done in regards to the ESL? These scammers shouldn't be allowed to operate. If you would go to a lawyer you will get your money inkstand. Thats how they all do it. Who serious complain get his money who dont have to wait even longer. Because many people are lazy and are afraid of sue someone it pays out. The question is if they make tournaments with prizemoney they dont have. If they indeed pay of old depts with money from new events this is only against business rules its a crime you go into jail for. What i just dont get is why so many people let them do it. Call them out in their own shows all the time say you sue them after they dont pay one day over limit. It does not even cost you money because they have to pay your lawyer not you. You will see you are allays the first one who gets paid.
I guess the problem is that the prizes are small enough, that suing them costs more than you might get from them. I guess they only need to pay the lawyer once you are sucesful, not? (and it might also take some time to do the paperwork)
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On October 31 2012 21:30 Sandermatt wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2012 21:27 skeldark wrote:On October 31 2012 20:33 Nihilnovi wrote:
I don't understand, doesn't Germany have any bankruptcy laws?
In Sweden, if a company owes you any amount of $, you can file a request with the bankruptcy bureau if they refuse to pay(only if you have solid grounds for demanding payment), and the government will force the company to pay, and if they don't they declare them bankrupt. Is there no such thing that can be done in regards to the ESL? These scammers shouldn't be allowed to operate. If you would go to a lawyer you will get your money inkstand. Thats how they all do it. Who serious complain get his money who dont have to wait even longer. Because many people are lazy and are afraid of sue someone it pays out. The question is if they make tournaments with prizemoney they dont have. If they indeed pay of old depts with money from new events this is only against business rules its a crime you go into jail for. What i just dont get is why so many people let them do it. Call them out in their own shows all the time say you sue them after they dont pay one day over limit. It does not even cost you money because they have to pay your lawyer not you. You will see you are allays the first one who gets paid. I guess the problem is that the prizes are small enough, that suing them costs more than you might get from them. Especially if you involve a lawyer.
Its not you who have to pay that. Its them.
You never go to court with that. They know they have to pay court too in this case.
So you let your lawyer write one letter and they send you the money next day and the money for the lawyer too.
They just try and hope you dont complain. Most people dont so it pays out for them.
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It's pretty easy to approach the people at ESL. Have any of the pros that posted tried just directly asking? There should at least be an open line of communication between the players and the league. We'd at least get more of an idea of what the problem is that way.
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On October 31 2012 21:48 Martijn wrote:
It's pretty easy to approach the people at ESL. Have any of the pros that posted tried just directly asking? There should at least be an open line of communication between the players and the league. We'd at least get more of an idea of what the problem is that way.
No. Not a single player in last 3 years had the idea to ask for his money. Oo
The problem is most likley they will pay goody now and all the guys who still waiting for small wins have to wait on.
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On October 31 2012 20:26 Gr33d wrote:
Its 2012. There is no NEED anymore for expensive studios to broadcast matches.
The german EPS is pretty low priority nowadays, so maybe the teams should start their own league. Just look at ESC, Alternate or Mouz. They have pretty much all the big names in the german scene under contract, like Socke,Hasu,Darkforce,Goody or Cloud.
Sponsor a own league, boycott the EPS, provide money that gets paid much faster and the other known players will follow. Now that TaKe is independant they can even hire him for the casting/production and their audience would not be smaller, as he provides the german casting for EPS anyway.
With a much better (maybe even bigger?) tournament they would even have a improved way to show off their sponsors.
The situation in germany because of the casting and "gaminghouse" provides by TaKe is so good (the players visit him often anyway) that its a shame its not used to its full potential in such circumstances.
Agreed! Lets have Take, the players, and their teams, bring forth a new era of central european gaming! :D Seriously great idea these people should talk.
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On October 31 2012 21:51 skeldark wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2012 21:48 Martijn wrote:
It's pretty easy to approach the people at ESL. Have any of the pros that posted tried just directly asking? There should at least be an open line of communication between the players and the league. We'd at least get more of an idea of what the problem is that way. No. Not a single player in last 3 years had the idea to ask for his money. Oo The problem is most likley they will pay goody now and all the guys who still waiting for small wins have to wait on.
Obviously some conversations have occurred, but you'd be surprised -_- Players hate dealing with that kind of shit in general. Players and ESL at least need to establish a conversation if we're looking to get anywhere.
Point is, where is the response? Are they just straight up being ignored? Do they not know/is it unclear who to talk to? Why haven't we heard anything about what ESL has been telling them all this time. Personally (and just in my experience) I can reach people at ESL within a day, much easier than for instance DH where staff is usually insanely busy.
Fact is, GoOdy's timing is less than ideal. It would've been much more convincing if he had done this before his r1 game, or even after a win. Now I know ESL takes forever to pay out (it was my understanding things were improving though), so I don't doubt what he said was true about still not getting paid. But it makes it sound more like an emotional decision than a rational one.
So who's going to step up and ask EPS Germany for their money? If they give poor excuses, we should know, if they have good reasons, we should know. Not because they have some kind of obligation to us, but because outbursts like this hurt their reputation and image is everything to leagues (without that, no sponsors).
By all means GoOdy would be better off posting more than just "they're not paying so I quit" to begin with.
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wall of text incoming
Ive been thinking a lot and my conclusion from the annual statement is that they have money. They had almost 10 million total revenue in 2010 and 2 million injection of capital.
thats 12 million euro to spend and still they had a minus of 2 million. Where does all that money go?
They have to pay 3.3 million to their employees. maybe they accept not getting paid for a month, but if they dont pay longer than that, most of them will search another job and theyre gone. 8,7 millions. left.
All that money is spent on other operating expenses. they arent described in more detail but i guess paying rent for their office buildings is necessary otherwise they get kicked out. I guess -1 million. They have to rent their servers for their websites. Im not quite sure how expensive that would be for all of esl. i guess less than a million. that leaves about 7 million to host their venues. Rent the location, equipment, shipment of own equipment and everything around their venue.
The least priority have external employees and prize money. And from that 7 million theres not enough left to pay for that and theres still 2.8 millions of liabilities from past mismanagements. Take has mentioned on his stream that they bought a part of this chinese esports league for millions which is basically worthless.
An interesting point is that from those 2.8 millions theres only 0.3 million liabilities to financial institutes. because if you lend money from a bank you actually have to pay interest. If you owe money to players... well they¨re gonna be pissed but in the end they do nothing and accept the situation. because what can a single player do? Ive worked in a business as a controller and they had problems too. i know that its part of the business policy of many companies with liquidity issues to pay external employees last. Its just cheaper than getting a loan.
So i think we should stop blaming esl. I think its time that the players do something about it together. As long as there are no consequences, nothing will happen. because if goody quits eps alone... well who cares.. someone else will step in for him. Darkforce, Real, biphy, cloud or kaup gonna take his spot and be happy about it that they could advance easier.
This is not just a problem of esports. They have lockouts in the NBA all the time. What needs to happen is that the player step up and say, no we dont accept it anymore that our prize money has the lowest priority. If all EPS and EAS player work together and say, we wont play eps anymore unless all prize money is payed within 6 month, even if that means that nobody signs up for the EPS cup next week, then you can actually achieve something. Its about 32 players in the german eps who would have to agree on that. If you dont stand up for your interests, nobody will take you seriously. Thats part of getting professional too. To have something like a labour union for players. and if you are not willing to boycott one single eps cup, well then the issue can not be that bad and its your own fault that everythings gonna stay the same.
maybe its uncomfortable to step up and actually do something about it. maybe you piss off sponsors. but you have the support of the community, at least i would support it. Its actually not such a big deal to lend some money from a bank. You just have to pay interest then. But who likes to pay interest if they can prevent it? The point is they could pay. They just dont want to.
Many of you feel powerless, but i dont think you are. you just have to act together and have the balls to actually do something about it. I think esl would give up quite easily. and if not: just found your own league. The nba players are threatening with that too. Whats wrong with take as team manager of team alternate with all their players playing in eps founds his own german bundesliga with sponsors? i believe it is possible. You dont need fancy venues for millions of dollars. Takes apartement is all you need for awesome starcraft 2 action. What is esl actually doing better than a nice homestorycup?
well maybe you feel like i want to start a riot. but thats whats necessary to change the esl. if you arent willing to do so and everybody just accepts the situation and is secretely happy about goody quitting because now you have better chances in the eps yourself, well then its your own damn fault!
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actually... the solution is quite easy:
Get a lawyer and get the hell to court with it and also at least in germany you can just go to the police and press charges for free and the state will look into it.
In germany if someone can't pay for 3 years... it's just illegal and you have to go into administration/bankruptcy if you can't pay it's as simple as that.
No discussion and no drama. Clean simple.
I would have been in court with them after 2 month not paying...hey this is about money.
And maybe people don't realize it, but behaviour like this is ruining the complete professional esport scene because if no one is paying then what is the point of being a progamer.
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big problem if player who loves siege tanks slow play tells he waiting this long this must be only true cause he for sure have patience like no other but hell two years is to much
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if this is a professional league the "professional" players should get themselves a lawyer like a real professional would do in his business.
still shame on you esl.
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On October 31 2012 23:10 SpikeStarcraft wrote:
Wall of text
Though I'm fully with you on having a united front for the players, instantly threatening a boycott would be silly. Get a list of players and what they're owed and present it to Carmac. He takes these things very seriously and will almost surely be able to give the players an idea on what went wrong and if/when they can expect to be paid. You'd at least establish clarity.
You know what the NHL strike did to me as someone who casually liked watching NHL? I found other things to do. Lockouts actively hurt and shrink the fanbase which is bad for the leagues and bad for the players. Players have alternatives, but only a select few German players manage to perform outside of Germany. The tier of players below the top is where this would hurt most seeming those won't get coverage elsewhere.
Lets not forget that there's months of negotiation before any of these lockouts occur in sports.
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everybody here in german knows how *** the ESL is..
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To have no delay in prize money has been our most important priority for a long time.
The ESL has paid out close to $11,500,000 since it started. We paid out $1,194,727 prize money this year, including current as well as outstanding prize money.
ESL does not operate on investment money, therefore the prize money gap cannot be closed instantly. While there are complaints, and for a few months there may still be some, we have reduced outstanding prize money by 50% in the last five months.
We plan to pay out another big chunk in the coming weeks (including most of what GoOdy was referring to).
I am very sorry for the inconvenience caused to the players. It’s the personal priority of mine to make sure the ESL Pro Series is on schedule with the prize money. This is what we are all working towards.
Best regards,
Bastian Veiser [ Product Manager ESL Pro Series ]
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what e bad press for ESL... I'm kinda speechless
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EPS sucks as a league anyway. Boring.
It´s always Goody, Hasu, Darkforce and Cloud playing over and over again. Watch them stream and helpt the players.
It´s also the right move to withdraw and not "get a lawyer" because the amount of money to fight about will be very low and it wont change a thing.
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On October 31 2012 23:24 Martijn wrote:Though I'm fully with you on having a united front for the players, instantly threatening a boycott would be silly. Get a list of players and what they're owed and present it to Carmac. He takes these things very seriously and will almost surely be able to give the players an idea on what went wrong and if/when they can expect to be paid. You'd at least establish clarity. You know what the NHL strike did to me as someone who casually liked watching NHL? I found other things to do. Lockouts actively hurt and shrink the fanbase which is bad for the leagues and bad for the players. Players have alternatives, but only a select few German players manage to perform outside of Germany. The tier of players below the top is where this would hurt most seeming those won't get coverage elsewhere. Lets not forget that there's months of negotiation before any of these lockouts occur in sports.
I've added a warning to my post about wall of text
Lockouts hurt the sport in the short term yes, but who likes to change? its more convenient to stay the same if you can. nobody likes change. And as long as theres someone who doesnt know how to defend himself, theres gonna be people who take advantage of it. Thats why its necessary to stand up and fight for the things you want. It might be bad in the short term, but in the long term it will change for the better.
and as you can see, goody quitting eps forced the Product Manager of the ESL Pro Series to register an account on teamliquid and publish his first post on the forum 15 minutes ago.
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On October 31 2012 23:24 Martijn wrote:
Though I'm fully with you on having a united front for the players, instantly threatening a boycott would be silly. Get a list of players and what they're owed and present it to Carmac. He takes these things very seriously and will almost surely be able to give the players an idea on what went wrong and if/when they can expect to be paid. You'd at least establish clarity.
First of all Carmac has nothing to do with the EPS. As far as i know he only handles the IEM stuff. Secondly if you look at the same thread from november 2011 he couldn't do anything to solve the problem. Nothing has changed since then and i don't see any reason why this should change now.
Don't get me wrong it's nice that the EPS Product Manager responds here. It's just not very convincing. It doesn't matter how much price money they paid out this year (probably from several years ago).
"Working on it" is just not enough and i say that with similar statements in mind from 1 year ago.
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On October 31 2012 23:55 SpikeStarcraft wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2012 23:24 Martijn wrote:On October 31 2012 23:10 SpikeStarcraft wrote:
Wall of text Though I'm fully with you on having a united front for the players, instantly threatening a boycott would be silly. Get a list of players and what they're owed and present it to Carmac. He takes these things very seriously and will almost surely be able to give the players an idea on what went wrong and if/when they can expect to be paid. You'd at least establish clarity. You know what the NHL strike did to me as someone who casually liked watching NHL? I found other things to do. Lockouts actively hurt and shrink the fanbase which is bad for the leagues and bad for the players. Players have alternatives, but only a select few German players manage to perform outside of Germany. The tier of players below the top is where this would hurt most seeming those won't get coverage elsewhere. Lets not forget that there's months of negotiation before any of these lockouts occur in sports. I've added a warning to my post about wall of text Lockouts hurt the sport in the short term yes, but who likes to change? its more convenient to stay the same if you can. nobody likes change. And as long as theres someone who doesnt know how to defend himself, theres gonna be people who take advantage of it. Thats why its necessary to stand up and fight for the things you want. It might be bad in the short term, but in the long term it will change for the better. and as you can see, goody quitting eps forced the Product Manager of the ESL Pro Series to register an account on teamliquid and publish his first post on the forum 15 minutes ago.
Remember, sc2 is dying *sheepish smirk* Jokes aside, we'd be foolish threatening some kind of lockout. eSports is experimental marketing for most companies that aren't directly involved in gaming, they'd run at the mention of lockouts.
GoOdy quiting forced nothing that he couldn't have achieved by just talking to ESL directly. Better yet, he'd have gotten a clearer answer if he did. You'll note that the post is little more than a variation of what Carmac posted a year ago with new numbers ;p
Edit: As for the wall of text thing, I just didn't want to quote the whole thing and have it take up a screen.
On November 01 2012 00:01 OrbitalPlane wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2012 23:24 Martijn wrote:
Though I'm fully with you on having a united front for the players, instantly threatening a boycott would be silly. Get a list of players and what they're owed and present it to Carmac. He takes these things very seriously and will almost surely be able to give the players an idea on what went wrong and if/when they can expect to be paid. You'd at least establish clarity.
First of all Carmac has nothing to do with the EPS. As far as i know he only handles the IEM stuff. Secondly if you look at the same thread from november 2011 he couldn't do anything to solve the problem. Nothing has changed since then and i don't see any reason why this should change now. Don't get me wrong it's nice that the EPS Product Manager responds here. It's just not very convincing. It doesn't matter how much price money they paid out this year (probably from several years ago). "Working on it" is just not enough and i say that with similar statements in mind from 1 year ago.
I'm well-aware of what Carmac is and isn't involved with and I know him well enough to know that he'd make absolutely sure you'd end up talking to the right person. He's one of the most reliable and helpful people we have in esports. A lot has changed from what I heard, the prize money situation has been showing improvement.
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I think that there should be a watch list on TL for tourneys like this so people can easily be informed, just an idea though. Watch out and be careful about where you invest your time!
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On October 31 2012 20:26 Gr33d wrote:
Its 2012. There is no NEED anymore for expensive studios to broadcast matches.
The german EPS is pretty low priority nowadays, so maybe the teams should start their own league. Just look at ESC, Alternate or Mouz. They have pretty much all the big names in the german scene under contract, like Socke,Hasu,Darkforce,Goody or Cloud.
Sponsor a own league, boycott the EPS, provide money that gets paid much faster and the other known players will follow. Now that TaKe is independant they can even hire him for the casting/production and their audience would not be smaller, as he provides the german casting for EPS anyway.
With a much better (maybe even bigger?) tournament they would even have a improved way to show off their sponsors.
The situation in germany because of the casting and "gaminghouse" provides by TaKe is so good (the players visit him often anyway) that its a shame its not used to its full potential in such circumstances.
I would love to see that !
But Take is still connected to "ESL" in some ways.
Of course hes independent now, but they have helped him alot on the way to where he is now i think.
Take probably doesn't want to boycott the league for that reason.
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On November 01 2012 00:04 Martijn wrote:
I'm well-aware of what Carmac is and isn't involved with and I know him well enough to know that he'd make absolutely sure you'd end up talking to the right person. He's one of the most reliable and helpful people we have in esports.
The right person was posting right above you.
A lot has changed from what I heard, the prize money situation has been showing improvement.
What has changed? If you have some insights than pls inform us.
Cloud stated that he didn't get the money from the january 2011 EPS and you know what? I don't think he is lying and i don't see any improvements there.
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On November 01 2012 00:14 OrbitalPlane wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2012 00:04 Martijn wrote:
I'm well-aware of what Carmac is and isn't involved with and I know him well enough to know that he'd make absolutely sure you'd end up talking to the right person. He's one of the most reliable and helpful people we have in esports. The right person was posting right above you. Show nested quote + A lot has changed from what I heard, the prize money situation has been showing improvement. What has changed? If you have some insights than pls inform us. Cloud stated that he didn't get the money from the january 2011 EPS and you know what? I don't think he is lying and i don't see any improvements there.
Cloud I'm certain isn't lying, but a lot of people have been getting money. Take it or leave it, I'm not going to discus other peoples finances, they're more than capable of posting themselves if they care to.
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This is just how big companies do things...
Hold on to your money as long as possible, personally i won some small prize money stuff a bunch of times at esl and eventually i always got paid by them (which is more than i can say for tournaments like GGL and the Gathering).
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On November 01 2012 00:07 Xidious wrote:
I think that there should be a watch list on TL for tourneys like this so people can easily be informed, just an idea though. Watch out and be careful about where you invest your time!
Regarding the EPS, everyone participating knows that the delays are 2yrs+. It's an "open secret" in the German scene and everyone signing up for it is aware of that (not saying that it is rectified).
The payout of the EPS SC2 prize money has probably one of the least priority of the ESL prize money payouts. The SC2 EPS prize money is not directly covered by sponsors or Blizzard, the players wouldn't benefit from a lockout at all (contrary to some posts in this thread) and many German players have only decent contracts with teams because of the EPS. The players are in the same jurisdiction area as the company, so they don't need to fear that their claims somehow vanishes. Their only concern is annoyance, interests and fear that ESL goes bankrupt.
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On November 01 2012 00:04 Martijn wrote:
Remember, sc2 is dying *sheepish smirk* Jokes aside, we'd be foolish threatening some kind of lockout. eSports is experimental marketing for most companies that aren't directly involved in gaming, they'd run at the mention of lockouts.
GoOdy quiting forced nothing that he couldn't have achieved by just talking to ESL directly. Better yet, he'd have gotten a clearer answer if he did. You'll note that the post is little more than a variation of what Carmac posted a year ago with new numbers ;p
Edit: As for the wall of text thing, I just didn't want to quote the whole thing and have it take up a screen.
Yes i know that this statement doesnt mean anything. Dont you think goody tried more than once to talk to the esl the last 2 years? I think hes sick of empty promises and havin to keep track of his earnings and make sure that they pay all the time. No one likes to ask for money all the time.
Talking doesnt solve anything. I know how it works, ive worked in a company with liquidity issues. You dont even look up the details you just say: "yes, yes actually its in process RIGHT NOW and it will be there soon."
as i stated from my wall of text, it isnt an issue of not being able to pay. its a question of priority. and paying prize money has obviously the lowest priority. A threatened lockout would actually give esports more publicity and would help them evolve to a more serious sport. The main thing is to act together in a player union to stand up for your interests and negotiate the terms so that esl knows if they screw with one player, they have a problem with all of them.
and we as a community cannot do that for the players. they have to do that by themselves. the good thing about esports is, that there are plenty of other competitions they can attend instead. the esl hasnt got a monopoly on esports broadcasting. they dont even provide the german broadcast. they dont actually have that much power as long as the players arent fighting on their own.
It would be on very short notice for next week i know. i dont think it would be a huge economic damage. it would be a sign that its more than just some isolated players occasionally complaining. Ideally you dont have to actually do a lockout because people gonna find a solution before that. ESL just needs more motivation to find a solution.
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On November 01 2012 00:29 SinCitta wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2012 00:07 Xidious wrote:
I think that there should be a watch list on TL for tourneys like this so people can easily be informed, just an idea though. Watch out and be careful about where you invest your time! Regarding the EPS, everyone participating knows that the delays are 2yrs+. It's an "open secret" in the German scene and everyone signing up for it is aware of that (not saying that it is rectified). The payout of the EPS SC2 prize money has probably one of the least priority of the ESL prize money payouts. The SC2 EPS prize money is not directly covered by sponsors or Blizzard, the players wouldn't benefit from a lockout at all (contrary to some posts in this thread) and many German players have only decent contracts with teams because of the EPS. The players are in the same jurisdiction area as the company, so they don't need to fear that their claims somehow vanishes. Their only concern is annoyance, interests and fear that ESL goes bankrupt.
If the market dont exist, its only a question of time until the bumble blows.
If the market exist, someone else will step in and do a better job.
Your argument does not help. It just make sure that the end will be a little bit later but much harder and people in german scene overused it by now. Let them die. Lets give the other guys out there a chance to do it better.
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I thought EPS german was a great thing . was hopping we can get some in UK ..emm :/ gl to get the money
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On November 01 2012 00:39 SpikeStarcraft wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2012 00:04 Martijn wrote:
Remember, sc2 is dying *sheepish smirk* Jokes aside, we'd be foolish threatening some kind of lockout. eSports is experimental marketing for most companies that aren't directly involved in gaming, they'd run at the mention of lockouts.
GoOdy quiting forced nothing that he couldn't have achieved by just talking to ESL directly. Better yet, he'd have gotten a clearer answer if he did. You'll note that the post is little more than a variation of what Carmac posted a year ago with new numbers ;p
Edit: As for the wall of text thing, I just didn't want to quote the whole thing and have it take up a screen. Yes i know that this statement doesnt mean anything. Dont you think goody tried more than once to talk to the esl the last 2 years? I think hes sick of empty promises and havin to keep track of his earnings and make sure that they pay all the time. No one likes to ask for money all the time. Talking doesnt solve anything. I know how it works, ive worked in a company with liquidity issues. You dont even look up the details you just say: "yes, yes actually its in process RIGHT NOW and it will be there soon." as i stated from my wall of text, it isnt an issue of not being able to pay. its a question of priority. and paying prize money has obviously the lowest priority. A threatened lockout would actually give esports more publicity and would help them evolve to a more serious sport. The main thing is to act together in a player union to stand up for your interests and negotiate the terms so that esl knows if they screw with one player, they have a problem with all of them. and we as a community cannot do that for the players. they have to do that by themselves. the good thing about esports is, that there are plenty of other competitions they can attend instead. the esl hasnt got a monopoly on esports broadcasting. they dont even provide the german podcast. they dont actually have that much power as long as the players arent fighting on their own. It would be on very short notice for next week i know. i dont think it would be a huge economic damage. it would be a sign that its more than just some isolated players occasionally complaining. Ideally you dont have to actually do a lockout because people gonna find a solution before that. ESL just needs more motivation to find a solution.
I'm sure GoOdy did try to talk to them, but all he's saying is "I quit" and "2 years". So where's the discussion? Maybe ESL gave him perfectly good reasons, but for now all we're seeing is "they didn't pay" which is barely a statement to begin with. (Insert a big rant here about how bad it is to go and take things players/casters/teams post on social media and creating stories around it).
Going on strike is going to scare off sponsors. To draw a simple comparison, would you invest in a company where the staff is on strike? If EPS were to disappear, no one is going to replace it. The 5-6 top level players in Germany have alternatives internationally (though with much fiercer competition), everyone else will be relegated to playing the weeklies.
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if you cant pay your winners there and then you shouldn't be holding a tournament for them
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On November 01 2012 00:48 Martijn wrote:
Going on strike is going to scare off sponsors. To draw a simple comparison, would you invest in a company where the staff is on strike? If EPS were to disappear, no one is going to replace it.
How do you know nothing would replace it?
The 5-6 top level players in Germany have alternatives internationally (though with much fiercer competition), everyone else will be relegated to playing the weeklies.
How is this different to the situation right now?^^
The argument if we do something about it, they're gonna get bankrupt is not valid. Starcraft 2 prize money is a really small portion of all the liabilities turtle entertainment has. I've shown that in a previous post from the annual statement from 2010 and a post by Carmac. 2.8 millions to 30k €.
Its not just goody who complains. A lot of progamers have complained in this thread that they feel powerless about that issue. I just offered a way to deal with it. I know that boycotting is bad for business, but that can not be an excuse for everything. and its not excuseable to take 18 month to pay prize money.
and if they dont want to do something about it, it cant be so bad and they should stop complaining.
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On November 01 2012 01:01 SpikeStarcraft wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2012 00:48 Martijn wrote:
Going on strike is going to scare off sponsors. To draw a simple comparison, would you invest in a company where the staff is on strike? If EPS were to disappear, no one is going to replace it. How do you know nothing would replace it? Show nested quote + The 5-6 top level players in Germany have alternatives internationally (though with much fiercer competition), everyone else will be relegated to playing the weeklies. How is this different to the situation right now?^^ The argument if we do something about it, they're gonna get bankrupt is not valid. Starcraft 2 prize money is a really small portion of all the liabilities turtle entertainment has. I've shown that in a previous post from the annual statement from 2010 and a post by Carmac. 2millions to 30k €. Its not just goody who complains. A lot of progamers have complained in this thread that they feel powerless about that issue. I just offered a way to deal with it. I know that boycotting is bad for business, but that can not be an excuse for everything. and its not excuseable to take 18 month to pay prize money.
If through some kind of massive boycott we hurt ESL, sponsors are going to think twice. Players still won't get paid and only the top 5-6 German players will be able to stay on as professionals. We hurt eSports. If through negotiations and clarity everyone gets paid, we all live happily ever after.
You're expecting that if players say they won't play anymore they will magically get paid. It's shortsighted, illogical and unrealistic. It's at best a gamble. Again, I'm all for players forming a united front, they absolutely should, but they should be looking for clarity and negotiation, not to burn the place down.
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On November 01 2012 01:07 Martijn wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2012 01:01 SpikeStarcraft wrote:On November 01 2012 00:48 Martijn wrote:
Going on strike is going to scare off sponsors. To draw a simple comparison, would you invest in a company where the staff is on strike? If EPS were to disappear, no one is going to replace it. How do you know nothing would replace it? The 5-6 top level players in Germany have alternatives internationally (though with much fiercer competition), everyone else will be relegated to playing the weeklies. How is this different to the situation right now?^^ The argument if we do something about it, they're gonna get bankrupt is not valid. Starcraft 2 prize money is a really small portion of all the liabilities turtle entertainment has. I've shown that in a previous post from the annual statement from 2010 and a post by Carmac. 2millions to 30k €. Its not just goody who complains. A lot of progamers have complained in this thread that they feel powerless about that issue. I just offered a way to deal with it. I know that boycotting is bad for business, but that can not be an excuse for everything. and its not excuseable to take 18 month to pay prize money. If through some kind of massive boycott we hurt ESL, sponsors are going to think twice. Players still won't get paid and only the top 5-6 German players will be able to stay on as professionals. We hurt eSports. If through negotiations and clarity everyone gets paid, we all live happily ever after. You're expecting that if players say they won't play anymore they will magically get paid. It's shortsighted, illogical and unrealistic. It's at best a gamble. Again, I'm all for players forming a united front, they absolutely should, but they should be looking for clarity and negotiation, not to burn the place down.
No im expecting that prize money would have a higher priority for esl in the future and that you demonstrate the power of the players for future reference.
On the one hand you say, boycotting does nothing on the other hand you tell me its comparable to "burning the place down". Lets start slower. They should start to actually negotiate as a united front and if esl doesnt pay in several weeks as promised today, they can consider a boycott. Moderate enough?
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On November 01 2012 00:41 skeldark wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2012 00:29 SinCitta wrote:On November 01 2012 00:07 Xidious wrote:
I think that there should be a watch list on TL for tourneys like this so people can easily be informed, just an idea though. Watch out and be careful about where you invest your time! Regarding the EPS, everyone participating knows that the delays are 2yrs+. It's an "open secret" in the German scene and everyone signing up for it is aware of that (not saying that it is rectified). The payout of the EPS SC2 prize money has probably one of the least priority of the ESL prize money payouts. The SC2 EPS prize money is not directly covered by sponsors or Blizzard, the players wouldn't benefit from a lockout at all (contrary to some posts in this thread) and many German players have only decent contracts with teams because of the EPS. The players are in the same jurisdiction area as the company, so they don't need to fear that their claims somehow vanishes. Their only concern is annoyance, interests and fear that ESL goes bankrupt. If the market dont exist, its only a question of time until the bumble blows. If the market exist, someone else will step in and do a better job. Your argument does not help. It just make sure that the end will be a little bit later but much harder and people in german scene overused it by now. Let them die. Lets give the other guys out there a chance to do it better.
Yes, it's debatable if the EPS concept is anachronistic or not. But as far as I know most of the debt is because of their past decisions (Take mentioned GIGA, PGL and something else, also the old studio was a money sink). They cut a lot of staff and stuff since then and their current operations seem to run fine [I have of course no idea if this is actually true or not]. The EPS stream viewership in SC2 is larger than ever since Take regularly casts them and we have some (small) highlights with the studio events. I don't know if this alone makes the EPS brand profitable. The EPS was always majorly driven by Counter-Strike.
The thing is, I am very skeptical if there is actually someone that can step in and do a better job. You would need to get enough capital after a company (the longest running even?) in the same business just failed. A lot of the staff, and with it, know-how would leave the scene and established business relations are lost, too. Players monetary claims would vanish and many players won't be able to wait for the next league to settle in. Basically, a lot of stability and trust would be lost. If a European competetitor was really there, where is it now? It should be able to compete, not wait until everything else is in shambles.
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On November 01 2012 01:16 SpikeStarcraft wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2012 01:07 Martijn wrote:On November 01 2012 01:01 SpikeStarcraft wrote:On November 01 2012 00:48 Martijn wrote:
Going on strike is going to scare off sponsors. To draw a simple comparison, would you invest in a company where the staff is on strike? If EPS were to disappear, no one is going to replace it. How do you know nothing would replace it? The 5-6 top level players in Germany have alternatives internationally (though with much fiercer competition), everyone else will be relegated to playing the weeklies. How is this different to the situation right now?^^ The argument if we do something about it, they're gonna get bankrupt is not valid. Starcraft 2 prize money is a really small portion of all the liabilities turtle entertainment has. I've shown that in a previous post from the annual statement from 2010 and a post by Carmac. 2millions to 30k €. Its not just goody who complains. A lot of progamers have complained in this thread that they feel powerless about that issue. I just offered a way to deal with it. I know that boycotting is bad for business, but that can not be an excuse for everything. and its not excuseable to take 18 month to pay prize money. If through some kind of massive boycott we hurt ESL, sponsors are going to think twice. Players still won't get paid and only the top 5-6 German players will be able to stay on as professionals. We hurt eSports. If through negotiations and clarity everyone gets paid, we all live happily ever after. You're expecting that if players say they won't play anymore they will magically get paid. It's shortsighted, illogical and unrealistic. It's at best a gamble. Again, I'm all for players forming a united front, they absolutely should, but they should be looking for clarity and negotiation, not to burn the place down. No im expecting that prize money would have a higher priority for esl and that you demonstrate the power of the players for future reference. On the one hand you say, boycotting does nothing on the other hand you tell me its comparable to "burning the place down". Lets start slower. They should start to actually negotiate as a united front and if esl doesnt pay in several weeks as promised today, they can consider a boycott. Moderate enough?
Oh no, I didn't mean to imply boycotting won't have an effect. Boycotting definitely will do something. I'm arguing as the stakes are, it'd do more harm than good.
Yep, they should start by producing a list of players and what they're owed. ESL can then state when they'll get paid and why they haven't been paid after looking into the claims.
Which means we do... nothing but sit and wait.
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Can't wait for the next "Szenecast". They already said that they would cover the topic. Unfortunately there will be only one side (players) represented. At least the statement from the Product Manager seems kind of promising.
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I was always wondering if all the leagues actually pay the prizemoney, I never thought of ESL, but thats that. Anyway, is ESL the only one doing this? I don't think so...
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On October 31 2012 20:53 Atrimex wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2012 20:29 SinCitta wrote:On October 31 2012 20:13 yoshi7319 wrote:
slightly offtopic:
if esl ever wants to cut down expenses and save money
I suggest they get rid of those terrible "hosts" they have
whenever they´re casting offline deciders/cupfinals from their own studio like last weekend.
i get the idea of "production value" and putting on stuff inbetween games, but these two (the woman especially, sorry)...quite awkward, little knowledge. They already cut every host except those two. And they have both a Counter-Strike background. ESLTV's SC2 department seems to be English only. The host's job is to get the players talking and the woman's job is to interact with the community, but nonetheless they really should get more insight into SC2 and its scene. Worst moment: "Erm... there will be a Zerg... patch... What does the community think? Will it make Zerg more... playable and stronger than how it is now?" - about the Heart of the Swarm expansion. My impression was the total opposite. They had a very high production value for a 5.000 viewer show. Maybe too high.
I agree, it was a pretty decent production. Your so called "worst moment" didn't actually happened that way. They asked a question about HOTS and it turned out none of the players had an opinion on it because nobody played HOTS.
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On November 01 2012 01:16 SinCitta wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2012 00:41 skeldark wrote:On November 01 2012 00:29 SinCitta wrote:On November 01 2012 00:07 Xidious wrote:
I think that there should be a watch list on TL for tourneys like this so people can easily be informed, just an idea though. Watch out and be careful about where you invest your time! Regarding the EPS, everyone participating knows that the delays are 2yrs+. It's an "open secret" in the German scene and everyone signing up for it is aware of that (not saying that it is rectified). The payout of the EPS SC2 prize money has probably one of the least priority of the ESL prize money payouts. The SC2 EPS prize money is not directly covered by sponsors or Blizzard, the players wouldn't benefit from a lockout at all (contrary to some posts in this thread) and many German players have only decent contracts with teams because of the EPS. The players are in the same jurisdiction area as the company, so they don't need to fear that their claims somehow vanishes. Their only concern is annoyance, interests and fear that ESL goes bankrupt. If the market dont exist, its only a question of time until the bumble blows. If the market exist, someone else will step in and do a better job. Your argument does not help. It just make sure that the end will be a little bit later but much harder and people in german scene overused it by now. Let them die. Lets give the other guys out there a chance to do it better. Yes, it's debatable if the EPS concept is anachronistic or not. But as far as I know most of the debt is because of their past decisions (Take mentioned GIGA, PGL and something else, also the old studio was a money sink). They cut a lot of staff and stuff since then and their current operations seem to run fine [I have of course no idea if this is actually true or not]. The EPS stream viewership in SC2 is larger than ever since Take regularly casts them and we have some (small) highlights with the studio events. I don't know if this alone makes the EPS brand profitable. The EPS was always majorly driven by Counter-Strike. The thing is, I am very skeptical if there is actually someone that can step in and do a better job. You would need to get enough capital after a company (the longest running even?) in the same business just failed. A lot of the staff, and with it, know-how would leave the scene and established business relations are lost, too. Players monetary claims would vanish and many players won't be able to wait for the next league to settle in. Basically, a lot of stability and trust would be lost. If a European competetitor was really there, where is it now? It should be able to compete, not wait until everything else is in shambles.
Some good points.
I personal think its a bubble. ESL is the only one who do it and they only do it with borrowed money.
However with pressure you can force them to pay of the prize money first.
No prize money = no viewers = no future.
If you get this in their heads they will start paying it. On the other hand. Someone who cant pay their debt consistent for years is done already.
BTW the official posts of esl are kind of admitting that they dont have the money for the prize before they announce it and pay of old debts with money that they perhaps get in future. What is in fact illegal.
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Got an Email today that we will get the prizemoney for the first season in 2011 in the next days. I guess we should complain publicly more often :D
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On November 01 2012 02:01 DarKFoRcE wrote:
Got an Email today that we will get the prizemoney for the first season in 2011 in the next days. I guess we should complain publicly more often :D
I said you. Letter from layer would do same thing.
problem is: you get your money now but all the not famous guys still have to wait.
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On November 01 2012 02:03 skeldark wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2012 02:01 DarKFoRcE wrote:
Got an Email today that we will get the prizemoney for the first season in 2011 in the next days. I guess we should complain publicly more often :D I said you. Letter from layer would do same thing. problem is: you get your money now but all the not famous guys still have to wait.
Na i think it gets paid out to everyone at the same time.
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If you kill off ESL then room may open up in the market for another tournament to take its place.
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On November 01 2012 00:48 Martijn wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2012 00:39 SpikeStarcraft wrote:On November 01 2012 00:04 Martijn wrote:
Remember, sc2 is dying *sheepish smirk* Jokes aside, we'd be foolish threatening some kind of lockout. eSports is experimental marketing for most companies that aren't directly involved in gaming, they'd run at the mention of lockouts.
GoOdy quiting forced nothing that he couldn't have achieved by just talking to ESL directly. Better yet, he'd have gotten a clearer answer if he did. You'll note that the post is little more than a variation of what Carmac posted a year ago with new numbers ;p
Edit: As for the wall of text thing, I just didn't want to quote the whole thing and have it take up a screen. Yes i know that this statement doesnt mean anything. Dont you think goody tried more than once to talk to the esl the last 2 years? I think hes sick of empty promises and havin to keep track of his earnings and make sure that they pay all the time. No one likes to ask for money all the time. Talking doesnt solve anything. I know how it works, ive worked in a company with liquidity issues. You dont even look up the details you just say: "yes, yes actually its in process RIGHT NOW and it will be there soon." as i stated from my wall of text, it isnt an issue of not being able to pay. its a question of priority. and paying prize money has obviously the lowest priority. A threatened lockout would actually give esports more publicity and would help them evolve to a more serious sport. The main thing is to act together in a player union to stand up for your interests and negotiate the terms so that esl knows if they screw with one player, they have a problem with all of them. and we as a community cannot do that for the players. they have to do that by themselves. the good thing about esports is, that there are plenty of other competitions they can attend instead. the esl hasnt got a monopoly on esports broadcasting. they dont even provide the german podcast. they dont actually have that much power as long as the players arent fighting on their own. It would be on very short notice for next week i know. i dont think it would be a huge economic damage. it would be a sign that its more than just some isolated players occasionally complaining. Ideally you dont have to actually do a lockout because people gonna find a solution before that. ESL just needs more motivation to find a solution. I'm sure GoOdy did try to talk to them, but all he's saying is "I quit" and "2 years". So where's the discussion? Maybe ESL gave him perfectly good reasons, but for now all we're seeing is "they didn't pay" which is barely a statement to begin with. (Insert a big rant here about how bad it is to go and take things players/casters/teams post on social media and creating stories around it). + Show Spoiler +
Going on strike is going to scare off sponsors. To draw a simple comparison, would you invest in a company where the staff is on strike? If EPS were to disappear, no one is going to replace it. The 5-6 top level players in Germany have alternatives internationally (though with much fiercer competition), everyone else will be relegated to playing the weeklies.
Well if you're sure that Goody talked to them, why did you say earlier "GoOdy quiting forced nothing that he couldn't have achieved by just talking to ESL directly. Better yet, he'd have gotten a clearer answer if he did." which implicates that he didnt talk to ESL directly?
As of now - no one here knows (and if one does please say so directly) if there were talks between Goody and the ESL, so you assuming that there were no talks and "attacking" Goody for that seems uncalled for.
I also think Goody's statement was enough. He's quitting, since he doesnt receive his money. Everything else is unimportant and would imho just sound like excuses for failing to pay the player. Either players get paid or it's their right to leave without any further explanation.
On the other hand, I agree with you about the boycott. For the reasons I posted earlier in this thread (team sponsor exposure, ...) it would just hurt the players.
iirc Take is also benefiting from ESL, since they pay GEMA for him.
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On November 01 2012 02:03 skeldark wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2012 02:01 DarKFoRcE wrote:
Got an Email today that we will get the prizemoney for the first season in 2011 in the next days. I guess we should complain publicly more often :D I said you. Letter from layer would do same thing. problem is: you get your money now but all the not famous guys still have to wait.
Well, at least the players didn't have to pay for the lawyer.
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ESL paid the Type players in reasonable time when the team was around.
It is indeed a difficult topic, I still feel that ESL is doing a very good job, they run IEM, they do great shows for viewers and work at their utmost to incorporate new sources of revenues to better support eSports development.
It's difficult but I'd say we should try to help them rather than go against them.
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On November 01 2012 02:10 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2012 02:03 skeldark wrote:On November 01 2012 02:01 DarKFoRcE wrote:
Got an Email today that we will get the prizemoney for the first season in 2011 in the next days. I guess we should complain publicly more often :D I said you. Letter from layer would do same thing. problem is: you get your money now but all the not famous guys still have to wait. Well, at least the players didn't have to pay for the lawyer.
You dont pay him they do.
The lawyer will say them that they have to pay, the cost of the lawyer , the prize money +5% for each year.
Thats the reason they instant pay. Because next letter will be, that they have to pay the price money, the lawyer and the court. They know they have to pay it, they know they are over time, they know they will loose.
Its the oldest trick ever. Pay everyone who wants to sue you, dont pay the rest.
Only one of 100 goes to a lawyer = good deal.
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On November 01 2012 02:13 skeldark wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2012 02:10 vthree wrote:On November 01 2012 02:03 skeldark wrote:On November 01 2012 02:01 DarKFoRcE wrote:
Got an Email today that we will get the prizemoney for the first season in 2011 in the next days. I guess we should complain publicly more often :D I said you. Letter from layer would do same thing. problem is: you get your money now but all the not famous guys still have to wait. Well, at least the players didn't have to pay for the lawyer. You dont pay him they do. The lawyer will say them that they have to pay him and the prize money in the letter. Thats the reason they instant pay. Because next letter will be, that they have to pay the price money, the lawyer and the court.
How would you know what's in the contracts. Maybe there is no time limit, just something "the prizemoney will be payed after all accounting for the event is finished". Then no lawyers will help you.
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On November 01 2012 02:18 grigorin wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2012 02:13 skeldark wrote:On November 01 2012 02:10 vthree wrote:On November 01 2012 02:03 skeldark wrote:On November 01 2012 02:01 DarKFoRcE wrote:
Got an Email today that we will get the prizemoney for the first season in 2011 in the next days. I guess we should complain publicly more often :D I said you. Letter from layer would do same thing. problem is: you get your money now but all the not famous guys still have to wait. Well, at least the players didn't have to pay for the lawyer. You dont pay him they do. The lawyer will say them that they have to pay him and the prize money in the letter. Thats the reason they instant pay. Because next letter will be, that they have to pay the price money, the lawyer and the court. How would you know what's in the contracts. Maybe there is no time limit, just something "the prizemoney will be payed after all accounting for the event is finished". Then no lawyers will help you.
He will. This part of the contract would be illegal.
"I pay some day in future " is not a valid contract. In this case the normal wait time would come in affect.
What is 3 weeks in germany i think.
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On November 01 2012 02:08 Zocat wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2012 00:48 Martijn wrote:On November 01 2012 00:39 SpikeStarcraft wrote:On November 01 2012 00:04 Martijn wrote:
Remember, sc2 is dying *sheepish smirk* Jokes aside, we'd be foolish threatening some kind of lockout. eSports is experimental marketing for most companies that aren't directly involved in gaming, they'd run at the mention of lockouts.
GoOdy quiting forced nothing that he couldn't have achieved by just talking to ESL directly. Better yet, he'd have gotten a clearer answer if he did. You'll note that the post is little more than a variation of what Carmac posted a year ago with new numbers ;p
Edit: As for the wall of text thing, I just didn't want to quote the whole thing and have it take up a screen. Yes i know that this statement doesnt mean anything. Dont you think goody tried more than once to talk to the esl the last 2 years? I think hes sick of empty promises and havin to keep track of his earnings and make sure that they pay all the time. No one likes to ask for money all the time. Talking doesnt solve anything. I know how it works, ive worked in a company with liquidity issues. You dont even look up the details you just say: "yes, yes actually its in process RIGHT NOW and it will be there soon." as i stated from my wall of text, it isnt an issue of not being able to pay. its a question of priority. and paying prize money has obviously the lowest priority. A threatened lockout would actually give esports more publicity and would help them evolve to a more serious sport. The main thing is to act together in a player union to stand up for your interests and negotiate the terms so that esl knows if they screw with one player, they have a problem with all of them. and we as a community cannot do that for the players. they have to do that by themselves. the good thing about esports is, that there are plenty of other competitions they can attend instead. the esl hasnt got a monopoly on esports broadcasting. they dont even provide the german podcast. they dont actually have that much power as long as the players arent fighting on their own. It would be on very short notice for next week i know. i dont think it would be a huge economic damage. it would be a sign that its more than just some isolated players occasionally complaining. Ideally you dont have to actually do a lockout because people gonna find a solution before that. ESL just needs more motivation to find a solution. I'm sure GoOdy did try to talk to them, but all he's saying is "I quit" and "2 years". So where's the discussion? Maybe ESL gave him perfectly good reasons, but for now all we're seeing is "they didn't pay" which is barely a statement to begin with. (Insert a big rant here about how bad it is to go and take things players/casters/teams post on social media and creating stories around it). + Show Spoiler +
Going on strike is going to scare off sponsors. To draw a simple comparison, would you invest in a company where the staff is on strike? If EPS were to disappear, no one is going to replace it. The 5-6 top level players in Germany have alternatives internationally (though with much fiercer competition), everyone else will be relegated to playing the weeklies.
Well if you're sure that Goody talked to them, why did you say earlier "GoOdy quiting forced nothing that he couldn't have achieved by just talking to ESL directly. Better yet, he'd have gotten a clearer answer if he did." which implicates that he didnt talk to ESL directly? As of now - no one here knows (and if one does please say so directly) if there were talks between Goody and the ESL, so you assuming that there were no talks and "attacking" Goody for that seems uncalled for. I also think Goody's statement was enough. He's quitting, since he doesnt receive his money. Everything else is unimportant and would imho just sound like excuses for failing to pay the player. Either players get paid or it's their right to leave without any further explanation. On the other hand, I agree with you about the boycott. For the reasons I posted earlier in this thread (team sponsor exposure, ...) it would just hurt the players. iirc Take is also benefiting from ESL, since they pay GEMA for him.
First off I never attacked GoOdy and I resent that you'd make that implication. I merely pointed out that now was a bad time for him to make that statement. A good number of other people in this thread DID make the claim that it was some kind of ragequit which explains why now was a bad time for him to make the statement. For as much as you can even call something someone says on facebook a statement.
Are you implying we should just assume ESL is trying to cheat players out of their money? Even though even GoOdy didn't state anything regarding what ESLs position? GoOdy of course isn't obligated to make any statement on anything, but it would benefit him to at least elaborate on what was going on. If he talked to them and I'm assuming he did, what was he told? Where's the rest of the conversation?
You can't have clarity in these kind of situations without some kind of discourse which clearly isn't present here yet.
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On November 01 2012 02:20 skeldark wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2012 02:18 grigorin wrote:On November 01 2012 02:13 skeldark wrote:On November 01 2012 02:10 vthree wrote:On November 01 2012 02:03 skeldark wrote:On November 01 2012 02:01 DarKFoRcE wrote:
Got an Email today that we will get the prizemoney for the first season in 2011 in the next days. I guess we should complain publicly more often :D I said you. Letter from layer would do same thing. problem is: you get your money now but all the not famous guys still have to wait. Well, at least the players didn't have to pay for the lawyer. You dont pay him they do. The lawyer will say them that they have to pay him and the prize money in the letter. Thats the reason they instant pay. Because next letter will be, that they have to pay the price money, the lawyer and the court. How would you know what's in the contracts. Maybe there is no time limit, just something "the prizemoney will be payed after all accounting for the event is finished". Then no lawyers will help you. He will. This part of the contract would be illegal. "I pay some day in future " is not a valid contract. In this case the normal wait time would come in affect. What is 3 weeks in germany i think.
Angestrebter Auszahlungstermin des Preisgeldes ist 90 Tage nach Abschluss der Playoffs der jeweiligen
Saison, spätestens jedoch 180 Tage nach Abschluss der jeweiligen Saison.
source
Seems they are even late for the 180 days deadline
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On November 01 2012 02:20 Martijn wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2012 02:08 Zocat wrote:On November 01 2012 00:48 Martijn wrote:On November 01 2012 00:39 SpikeStarcraft wrote:On November 01 2012 00:04 Martijn wrote:
Remember, sc2 is dying *sheepish smirk* Jokes aside, we'd be foolish threatening some kind of lockout. eSports is experimental marketing for most companies that aren't directly involved in gaming, they'd run at the mention of lockouts.
GoOdy quiting forced nothing that he couldn't have achieved by just talking to ESL directly. Better yet, he'd have gotten a clearer answer if he did. You'll note that the post is little more than a variation of what Carmac posted a year ago with new numbers ;p
Edit: As for the wall of text thing, I just didn't want to quote the whole thing and have it take up a screen. Yes i know that this statement doesnt mean anything. Dont you think goody tried more than once to talk to the esl the last 2 years? I think hes sick of empty promises and havin to keep track of his earnings and make sure that they pay all the time. No one likes to ask for money all the time. Talking doesnt solve anything. I know how it works, ive worked in a company with liquidity issues. You dont even look up the details you just say: "yes, yes actually its in process RIGHT NOW and it will be there soon." as i stated from my wall of text, it isnt an issue of not being able to pay. its a question of priority. and paying prize money has obviously the lowest priority. A threatened lockout would actually give esports more publicity and would help them evolve to a more serious sport. The main thing is to act together in a player union to stand up for your interests and negotiate the terms so that esl knows if they screw with one player, they have a problem with all of them. and we as a community cannot do that for the players. they have to do that by themselves. the good thing about esports is, that there are plenty of other competitions they can attend instead. the esl hasnt got a monopoly on esports broadcasting. they dont even provide the german podcast. they dont actually have that much power as long as the players arent fighting on their own. It would be on very short notice for next week i know. i dont think it would be a huge economic damage. it would be a sign that its more than just some isolated players occasionally complaining. Ideally you dont have to actually do a lockout because people gonna find a solution before that. ESL just needs more motivation to find a solution. I'm sure GoOdy did try to talk to them, but all he's saying is "I quit" and "2 years". So where's the discussion? Maybe ESL gave him perfectly good reasons, but for now all we're seeing is "they didn't pay" which is barely a statement to begin with. (Insert a big rant here about how bad it is to go and take things players/casters/teams post on social media and creating stories around it). + Show Spoiler +
Going on strike is going to scare off sponsors. To draw a simple comparison, would you invest in a company where the staff is on strike? If EPS were to disappear, no one is going to replace it. The 5-6 top level players in Germany have alternatives internationally (though with much fiercer competition), everyone else will be relegated to playing the weeklies.
Well if you're sure that Goody talked to them, why did you say earlier "GoOdy quiting forced nothing that he couldn't have achieved by just talking to ESL directly. Better yet, he'd have gotten a clearer answer if he did." which implicates that he didnt talk to ESL directly? As of now - no one here knows (and if one does please say so directly) if there were talks between Goody and the ESL, so you assuming that there were no talks and "attacking" Goody for that seems uncalled for. I also think Goody's statement was enough. He's quitting, since he doesnt receive his money. Everything else is unimportant and would imho just sound like excuses for failing to pay the player. Either players get paid or it's their right to leave without any further explanation. On the other hand, I agree with you about the boycott. For the reasons I posted earlier in this thread (team sponsor exposure, ...) it would just hurt the players. iirc Take is also benefiting from ESL, since they pay GEMA for him. First off I never attacked GoOdy and I resent that you'd make that implication. I merely pointed out that now was a bad time for him to make that statement. A good number of other people in this thread DID make the claim that it was some kind of ragequit which explains why now was a bad time for him to make the statement. For as much as you can even call something someone says on facebook a statement. Are you implying we should just assume ESL is trying to cheat players out of their money? Even though even GoOdy didn't state anything regarding what ESLs position? GoOdy of course isn't obligated to make any statement on anything, but it would benefit him to at least elaborate on what was going on. If he talked to them and I'm assuming he did, what was he told? Where's the rest of the conversation? You can't have clarity in these kind of situations without some kind of discourse which clearly isn't present here yet.
You said multiple times the way Goody approaches the situation was bad, that's why I put the attacking in " ". But always under the assumption that he didnt talk to ESL ("GoOdy quiting forced nothing that he couldn't have achieved by just talking to ESL directly. ", "Players hate dealing with that kind of shit in general. Players and ESL at least need to establish a conversation if we're looking to get anywhere.", "It's pretty easy to approach the people at ESL. Have any of the pros that posted tried just directly asking? [the way that is worded = rhetorical question "Of course they didnt!"] There should at least be an open line of communication between the players and the league.")
You should stop basing your argument under this unproven assumption. Or at least make it more clear that it's just based upon this assumption and dont present it as a fact.
And I dont say that we should assume that the ESL is trying to cheat players out of their money.
I say it's a fact that they cheat players out of their money. Even if that might not be their intention. They do it, and it's bad.
And for this there is no excuse. If he doesnt have the money after the timeframe (according to grigorin 180days after the season) there's nothing to discuss, and there is no need for any conversation between him and ESL.
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Even if you don't get prize money quick its still a good event. It has a lot of viewers so players and organisations get tons more exposure by playing it. Its like a million people more seeing the brands that sponsor you.
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In my opinion it's a shame that we even have to complain about not receiving any prize money... It should be a matter of days to get it. Otherwise the leagues should not be allowed to host any tournament at all.
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On November 01 2012 02:20 skeldark wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2012 02:18 grigorin wrote:On November 01 2012 02:13 skeldark wrote:On November 01 2012 02:10 vthree wrote:On November 01 2012 02:03 skeldark wrote:On November 01 2012 02:01 DarKFoRcE wrote:
Got an Email today that we will get the prizemoney for the first season in 2011 in the next days. I guess we should complain publicly more often :D I said you. Letter from layer would do same thing. problem is: you get your money now but all the not famous guys still have to wait. Well, at least the players didn't have to pay for the lawyer. You dont pay him they do. The lawyer will say them that they have to pay him and the prize money in the letter. Thats the reason they instant pay. Because next letter will be, that they have to pay the price money, the lawyer and the court. How would you know what's in the contracts. Maybe there is no time limit, just something "the prizemoney will be payed after all accounting for the event is finished". Then no lawyers will help you. He will. This part of the contract would be illegal. "I pay some day in future " is not a valid contract. In this case the normal wait time would come in affect. What is 3 weeks in germany i think.
No, I think it would be legal: http://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/bgb/__158.html for example.
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Not paying out prize money for 1.5 or sometimes even 3 years without even paying interest to the players eventually is clearly not legal. I really think that some German player should consider suing the ESL. However, I can also understand that they refrain from doing so in fear of losing money to lawyers or having to invest too much effort into it. Nothing is gonna change though unless somebody does this or periodically publicizes the ESL's incapability to pay out prize money.
You also have to consider that a lot of the player who win prize money on ESL events are not from Germany. The barrier to actually sue the ESL from a foreign country is way higher for obvious reasons. Also a lot of players are still young and don't know a ot about business topics. It's pretty shady business practices to take advantage of that in my opinion.
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On October 31 2012 17:34 bioboyAT wrote:I have won an ESL event for swiss/austria 1 1/2 years ago and also still haven't gotten my 600€ from ESL yet
Yep it's sad. Once I won 75 Swiss francs at an ESL Cup and had to write about 5-6 mails to get the money. But at least I had it in the end.
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On November 01 2012 03:08 Zocat wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2012 02:20 Martijn wrote:On November 01 2012 02:08 Zocat wrote:On November 01 2012 00:48 Martijn wrote:On November 01 2012 00:39 SpikeStarcraft wrote:On November 01 2012 00:04 Martijn wrote:
Remember, sc2 is dying *sheepish smirk* Jokes aside, we'd be foolish threatening some kind of lockout. eSports is experimental marketing for most companies that aren't directly involved in gaming, they'd run at the mention of lockouts.
GoOdy quiting forced nothing that he couldn't have achieved by just talking to ESL directly. Better yet, he'd have gotten a clearer answer if he did. You'll note that the post is little more than a variation of what Carmac posted a year ago with new numbers ;p
Edit: As for the wall of text thing, I just didn't want to quote the whole thing and have it take up a screen. Yes i know that this statement doesnt mean anything. Dont you think goody tried more than once to talk to the esl the last 2 years? I think hes sick of empty promises and havin to keep track of his earnings and make sure that they pay all the time. No one likes to ask for money all the time. Talking doesnt solve anything. I know how it works, ive worked in a company with liquidity issues. You dont even look up the details you just say: "yes, yes actually its in process RIGHT NOW and it will be there soon." as i stated from my wall of text, it isnt an issue of not being able to pay. its a question of priority. and paying prize money has obviously the lowest priority. A threatened lockout would actually give esports more publicity and would help them evolve to a more serious sport. The main thing is to act together in a player union to stand up for your interests and negotiate the terms so that esl knows if they screw with one player, they have a problem with all of them. and we as a community cannot do that for the players. they have to do that by themselves. the good thing about esports is, that there are plenty of other competitions they can attend instead. the esl hasnt got a monopoly on esports broadcasting. they dont even provide the german podcast. they dont actually have that much power as long as the players arent fighting on their own. It would be on very short notice for next week i know. i dont think it would be a huge economic damage. it would be a sign that its more than just some isolated players occasionally complaining. Ideally you dont have to actually do a lockout because people gonna find a solution before that. ESL just needs more motivation to find a solution. I'm sure GoOdy did try to talk to them, but all he's saying is "I quit" and "2 years". So where's the discussion? Maybe ESL gave him perfectly good reasons, but for now all we're seeing is "they didn't pay" which is barely a statement to begin with. (Insert a big rant here about how bad it is to go and take things players/casters/teams post on social media and creating stories around it). + Show Spoiler +
Going on strike is going to scare off sponsors. To draw a simple comparison, would you invest in a company where the staff is on strike? If EPS were to disappear, no one is going to replace it. The 5-6 top level players in Germany have alternatives internationally (though with much fiercer competition), everyone else will be relegated to playing the weeklies.
Well if you're sure that Goody talked to them, why did you say earlier "GoOdy quiting forced nothing that he couldn't have achieved by just talking to ESL directly. Better yet, he'd have gotten a clearer answer if he did." which implicates that he didnt talk to ESL directly? As of now - no one here knows (and if one does please say so directly) if there were talks between Goody and the ESL, so you assuming that there were no talks and "attacking" Goody for that seems uncalled for. I also think Goody's statement was enough. He's quitting, since he doesnt receive his money. Everything else is unimportant and would imho just sound like excuses for failing to pay the player. Either players get paid or it's their right to leave without any further explanation. On the other hand, I agree with you about the boycott. For the reasons I posted earlier in this thread (team sponsor exposure, ...) it would just hurt the players. iirc Take is also benefiting from ESL, since they pay GEMA for him. First off I never attacked GoOdy and I resent that you'd make that implication. I merely pointed out that now was a bad time for him to make that statement. A good number of other people in this thread DID make the claim that it was some kind of ragequit which explains why now was a bad time for him to make the statement. For as much as you can even call something someone says on facebook a statement. Are you implying we should just assume ESL is trying to cheat players out of their money? Even though even GoOdy didn't state anything regarding what ESLs position? GoOdy of course isn't obligated to make any statement on anything, but it would benefit him to at least elaborate on what was going on. If he talked to them and I'm assuming he did, what was he told? Where's the rest of the conversation? You can't have clarity in these kind of situations without some kind of discourse which clearly isn't present here yet. You said multiple times the way Goody approaches the situation was bad, that's why I put the attacking in " ". But always under the assumption that he didnt talk to ESL ("GoOdy quiting forced nothing that he couldn't have achieved by just talking to ESL directly. ", "Players hate dealing with that kind of shit in general. Players and ESL at least need to establish a conversation if we're looking to get anywhere.", "It's pretty easy to approach the people at ESL. Have any of the pros that posted tried just directly asking? [the way that is worded = rhetorical question "Of course they didnt!"] There should at least be an open line of communication between the players and the league.") You should stop basing your argument under this unproven assumption. Or at least make it more clear that it's just based upon this assumption and dont present it as a fact.
I'm convinced he didn't approach it well because his timing was poor. Several people have claimed it was some kind of ragequit because he only spoke up after his loss. If he had done it before his loss, or after a win, he would've had a much stronger position. It would've seemed a rational decision rather than an emotional one. It would've been better for him, I don't get how you can't grasp this.. He's painting a bad picture.
Now, players do hate dealing with this crap and players, as a group, need to establish an open conversation with ESL. Something they can be held accountable for later. They still do because even if they're getting paid for one thing now, there's still much pending. If you want to read it as rhetorical, that's on you but I was inviting players to share what ESL told them.
On November 01 2012 03:08 Zocat wrote:
And I dont say that we should assume that the ESL is trying to cheat players out of their money.
I say it's a fact that they cheat players out of their money. Even if that might not be their intention. They do it, and it's bad.
And for this there is no excuse. If he doesnt have the money after the timeframe (according to grigorin 180days after the season) there's nothing to discuss, and there is no need for any conversation between him and ESL.
Cheating players out of their money means not paying them. At no point has it been established EPS Germany doesn't pay, they only take a very long time. Even with the old complaints, everything got settled, they've got a very clean record.
EPS Nordic/UK/Benelux are far more suspect for that matter.
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On November 01 2012 02:13 TypeLex wrote:
ESL paid the Type players in reasonable time when the team was around.
It is indeed a difficult topic, I still feel that ESL is doing a very good job, they run IEM, they do great shows for viewers and work at their utmost to incorporate new sources of revenues to better support eSports development.
It's difficult but I'd say we should try to help them rather than go against them.
should support an organization thats notoriously bad?
i play their events out of appreciation for intel, but they are terrible. player treatment is a very, very low priority for them. convention based events are always awful. they're famous for being bad about paying prize money, they usually do pay you eventually if you hassle them enough but you're lucky if you get it within 6 months most of the time.
and its not even like theyre pushing the envelope in terms of production quality or... anything. mlg and dreamhack clearly outclass them in terms of that. they just arent an organization that deserves much of anything from the community.
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On November 01 2012 04:06 Kumeni wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2012 02:20 skeldark wrote:On November 01 2012 02:18 grigorin wrote:On November 01 2012 02:13 skeldark wrote:On November 01 2012 02:10 vthree wrote:On November 01 2012 02:03 skeldark wrote:On November 01 2012 02:01 DarKFoRcE wrote:
Got an Email today that we will get the prizemoney for the first season in 2011 in the next days. I guess we should complain publicly more often :D I said you. Letter from layer would do same thing. problem is: you get your money now but all the not famous guys still have to wait. Well, at least the players didn't have to pay for the lawyer. You dont pay him they do. The lawyer will say them that they have to pay him and the prize money in the letter. Thats the reason they instant pay. Because next letter will be, that they have to pay the price money, the lawyer and the court. How would you know what's in the contracts. Maybe there is no time limit, just something "the prizemoney will be payed after all accounting for the event is finished". Then no lawyers will help you. He will. This part of the contract would be illegal. "I pay some day in future " is not a valid contract. In this case the normal wait time would come in affect. What is 3 weeks in germany i think. No, I think it would be legal: http://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/bgb/__158.html for example.
Im no lawyer, i just playing around. So i can talk total bullshit here. But anyways:
The text you link is over conditions.
"I pay one day" is not allowed because it does not include an condition. You can say "I pay when the sky turns red" but not "one day".
With an open condition there is nothing objective this party adds to the contract, but for an contract both partys have to add something to it. So you could argue the AGB/TOS is not a valid contract and so a "resonable Contract" that was accepted by invite and sign, comes into place: You play i pay.
Because this new contract have no rules written down, it gets the normal waiting time of 3 weeks.
Also with such a term in the AGB/ToS you can question the advertise.
When you advertise a tournament with an prize-pool, you can argue, that every human has to expect a pay out in reasonable time. In this case it would be wrong advertise up until fraud.
Also it is questionable if this point would not be against common rules ( Sittenwidrig)
Also you could argue, that with paying price money of past tournaments from future tournaments, they take debt without knowing if they are able to pay it back. (Insolvenzverschleppung). In this case it would not only be a civil law it would be a crime.
Long story short: you sue them and have a good shot to win.
I mean, even if you are complete wrong, your lawyer will find some laws that lets you look good
Beside all the law, ESL will pay you just for not being in all news, for not paying prize-money.
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I guess the biggest inconvenience for a winner is that what if it goes 'bankrupt' or whatever the equivalent is? No one gets paid lol. Idk thats just my first thought.
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On November 01 2012 02:13 skeldark wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2012 02:10 vthree wrote:On November 01 2012 02:03 skeldark wrote:On November 01 2012 02:01 DarKFoRcE wrote:
Got an Email today that we will get the prizemoney for the first season in 2011 in the next days. I guess we should complain publicly more often :D I said you. Letter from layer would do same thing. problem is: you get your money now but all the not famous guys still have to wait. Well, at least the players didn't have to pay for the lawyer. You dont pay him they do. The lawyer will say them that they have to pay, the cost of the lawyer , the prize money +5% for each year. Thats the reason they instant pay. Because next letter will be, that they have to pay the price money, the lawyer and the court. They know they have to pay it, they know they are over time, they know they will loose. Its the oldest trick ever. Pay everyone who wants to sue you, dont pay the rest. Only one of 100 goes to a lawyer = good deal.
Theoretically, this is true.
In Practice, it is an absolutely naive expectation. Despite contracts, most financial disputes here end in compromise settlements, which translates to getting only portion of the money owed (typically half) and having to pay yourself for your lawyer fees. In something as unregulated and unusual as esports, chances are that a compromise settlement will be the best the players can expect. Even in the unlikely scenario that the players could win in court and receive all the money, while ESL having to pay for court and lawyer fees, the whole process can be delayed for years. This means that the players would have to pay for lawyers/court upfront and be reimbursed only after the final court decision.
(Obvisouly, I am talking about Germany. In Bulgaria, court decisions are won by whoever offers the most money...)
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On November 01 2012 06:48 A3mercury wrote:
I guess the biggest inconvenience for a winner is that what if it goes 'bankrupt' or whatever the equivalent is? No one gets paid lol. Idk thats just my first thought.
A terrible end or terror without end ... Depends on the situation. If you win one time and dont play anymore, yes.
If you are around for some while and perhaps will win more.... perhaps its good if they go bankrupt and someone else come up.
On November 01 2012 06:52 ggrrg wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2012 02:13 skeldark wrote:On November 01 2012 02:10 vthree wrote:On November 01 2012 02:03 skeldark wrote:On November 01 2012 02:01 DarKFoRcE wrote:
Got an Email today that we will get the prizemoney for the first season in 2011 in the next days. I guess we should complain publicly more often :D I said you. Letter from layer would do same thing. problem is: you get your money now but all the not famous guys still have to wait. Well, at least the players didn't have to pay for the lawyer. You dont pay him they do. The lawyer will say them that they have to pay, the cost of the lawyer , the prize money +5% for each year. Thats the reason they instant pay. Because next letter will be, that they have to pay the price money, the lawyer and the court. They know they have to pay it, they know they are over time, they know they will loose. Its the oldest trick ever. Pay everyone who wants to sue you, dont pay the rest. Only one of 100 goes to a lawyer = good deal. Theoretically, this is true. In Practice, it is an absolutely naive expectation. Despite contracts, most financial disputes here end in compromise settlements, which translates to getting only portion of the money owed (typically half) and having to pay yourself for your lawyer fees. In something as unregulated and unusual as esports, chances are that a compromise settlement will be the best the players can expect. Even in the unlikely scenario that the players could win in court and receive all the money, while ESL having to pay for court and lawyer fees, the whole process can be delayed for years. This means that the players would have to pay for lawyers/court upfront and be reimbursed only after the final court decision. (Obvisouly, I am talking about Germany. In Bulgaria, court decisions are won by whoever offers the most money...)
True. If they fight it out. But if they would fight it out always, they loose in last instance always.
So they try to make a deal: Get half of the money now or fight with us on court for years.
BIG company's do that. Insurance Company's love this method.
Smaller ones have the same problem you have. They cant afford to fight 1000 law cases.
So they use the easy way: Pay at first sign of lawyer, dont pay rest. You still make a lot of money this way.
You find out what type they are, by sending one letter from the lawyer. You can still cancel it if you dont want to go to court.
Also take into account, that the way they make their business, there is a good chance they dont want anyone to look to closely into their books.
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Anyway that's all theoretical and gets off topic.
All i know is, if they try to cheat me, i would not just wait 2 years.
Imaging the faces if you win a tournament and call them out on not paying for last one, live on main stage
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On November 01 2012 06:01 Martijn wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2012 03:08 Zocat wrote:On November 01 2012 02:20 Martijn wrote:On November 01 2012 02:08 Zocat wrote:On November 01 2012 00:48 Martijn wrote:On November 01 2012 00:39 SpikeStarcraft wrote:On November 01 2012 00:04 Martijn wrote:
Remember, sc2 is dying *sheepish smirk* Jokes aside, we'd be foolish threatening some kind of lockout. eSports is experimental marketing for most companies that aren't directly involved in gaming, they'd run at the mention of lockouts.
GoOdy quiting forced nothing that he couldn't have achieved by just talking to ESL directly. Better yet, he'd have gotten a clearer answer if he did. You'll note that the post is little more than a variation of what Carmac posted a year ago with new numbers ;p
Edit: As for the wall of text thing, I just didn't want to quote the whole thing and have it take up a screen. Yes i know that this statement doesnt mean anything. Dont you think goody tried more than once to talk to the esl the last 2 years? I think hes sick of empty promises and havin to keep track of his earnings and make sure that they pay all the time. No one likes to ask for money all the time. Talking doesnt solve anything. I know how it works, ive worked in a company with liquidity issues. You dont even look up the details you just say: "yes, yes actually its in process RIGHT NOW and it will be there soon." as i stated from my wall of text, it isnt an issue of not being able to pay. its a question of priority. and paying prize money has obviously the lowest priority. A threatened lockout would actually give esports more publicity and would help them evolve to a more serious sport. The main thing is to act together in a player union to stand up for your interests and negotiate the terms so that esl knows if they screw with one player, they have a problem with all of them. and we as a community cannot do that for the players. they have to do that by themselves. the good thing about esports is, that there are plenty of other competitions they can attend instead. the esl hasnt got a monopoly on esports broadcasting. they dont even provide the german podcast. they dont actually have that much power as long as the players arent fighting on their own. It would be on very short notice for next week i know. i dont think it would be a huge economic damage. it would be a sign that its more than just some isolated players occasionally complaining. Ideally you dont have to actually do a lockout because people gonna find a solution before that. ESL just needs more motivation to find a solution. I'm sure GoOdy did try to talk to them, but all he's saying is "I quit" and "2 years". So where's the discussion? Maybe ESL gave him perfectly good reasons, but for now all we're seeing is "they didn't pay" which is barely a statement to begin with. (Insert a big rant here about how bad it is to go and take things players/casters/teams post on social media and creating stories around it). + Show Spoiler +
Going on strike is going to scare off sponsors. To draw a simple comparison, would you invest in a company where the staff is on strike? If EPS were to disappear, no one is going to replace it. The 5-6 top level players in Germany have alternatives internationally (though with much fiercer competition), everyone else will be relegated to playing the weeklies.
Well if you're sure that Goody talked to them, why did you say earlier "GoOdy quiting forced nothing that he couldn't have achieved by just talking to ESL directly. Better yet, he'd have gotten a clearer answer if he did." which implicates that he didnt talk to ESL directly? As of now - no one here knows (and if one does please say so directly) if there were talks between Goody and the ESL, so you assuming that there were no talks and "attacking" Goody for that seems uncalled for. I also think Goody's statement was enough. He's quitting, since he doesnt receive his money. Everything else is unimportant and would imho just sound like excuses for failing to pay the player. Either players get paid or it's their right to leave without any further explanation. On the other hand, I agree with you about the boycott. For the reasons I posted earlier in this thread (team sponsor exposure, ...) it would just hurt the players. iirc Take is also benefiting from ESL, since they pay GEMA for him. First off I never attacked GoOdy and I resent that you'd make that implication. I merely pointed out that now was a bad time for him to make that statement. A good number of other people in this thread DID make the claim that it was some kind of ragequit which explains why now was a bad time for him to make the statement. For as much as you can even call something someone says on facebook a statement. Are you implying we should just assume ESL is trying to cheat players out of their money? Even though even GoOdy didn't state anything regarding what ESLs position? GoOdy of course isn't obligated to make any statement on anything, but it would benefit him to at least elaborate on what was going on. If he talked to them and I'm assuming he did, what was he told? Where's the rest of the conversation? You can't have clarity in these kind of situations without some kind of discourse which clearly isn't present here yet. You said multiple times the way Goody approaches the situation was bad, that's why I put the attacking in " ". But always under the assumption that he didnt talk to ESL ("GoOdy quiting forced nothing that he couldn't have achieved by just talking to ESL directly. ", "Players hate dealing with that kind of shit in general. Players and ESL at least need to establish a conversation if we're looking to get anywhere.", "It's pretty easy to approach the people at ESL. Have any of the pros that posted tried just directly asking? [the way that is worded = rhetorical question "Of course they didnt!"] There should at least be an open line of communication between the players and the league.") You should stop basing your argument under this unproven assumption. Or at least make it more clear that it's just based upon this assumption and dont present it as a fact. I'm convinced he didn't approach it well because his timing was poor. Several people have claimed it was some kind of ragequit because he only spoke up after his loss. If he had done it before his loss, or after a win, he would've had a much stronger position. It would've seemed a rational decision rather than an emotional one. It would've been better for him, I don't get how you can't grasp this.. He's painting a bad picture. Now, players do hate dealing with this crap and players, as a group, need to establish an open conversation with ESL. Something they can be held accountable for later. They still do because even if they're getting paid for one thing now, there's still much pending. If you want to read it as rhetorical, that's on you but I was inviting players to share what ESL told them. Show nested quote +On November 01 2012 03:08 Zocat wrote:
And I dont say that we should assume that the ESL is trying to cheat players out of their money.
I say it's a fact that they cheat players out of their money. Even if that might not be their intention. They do it, and it's bad.
And for this there is no excuse. If he doesnt have the money after the timeframe (according to grigorin 180days after the season) there's nothing to discuss, and there is no need for any conversation between him and ESL. Cheating players out of their money means not paying them. At no point has it been established EPS Germany doesn't pay, they only take a very long time. Even with the old complaints, everything got settled, they've got a very clean record. EPS Nordic/UK/Benelux are far more suspect for that matter.
2nd part:
Imho with interest, player dependency on prize money , it's cheating players out of their money.
I think the important factor is that players dont know when they're paid. If ESL says "We will pay you after 7 months" it's ok (even though that's a long time). But the 180days after season ending are over.
The being in the dark when they're paid is the cheating part imho.
If my definition of cheating is wrong (or contradicting your own), I apologize. But that what I just said was what I meant
Paying late & outside of fixed intervals = cheating out of money.
I cannot comment on the other EPS.
1st part:
Goody said during the Windows 8 release cup that he was thinking about quitting professional SC2 completely. Though him being reacquired earlier by ESC changed this opinion of course. (though I speculate his contract with ESC changed concerning him being required to play ESL if that ever was a point)
But for me this hints to Goody not being satisfied with the SC2 scene (?) overall. And, because of this, it doesnt feel like a ragequit to me. More like "I am ready to quit, these are the things which annoy me. I accepted them earlier, but enough is enough. If you dont change them I'm out of here. No more chances".
Doesnt feel emotional but calculated for me.
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On November 01 2012 10:30 Zocat wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2012 06:01 Martijn wrote:On November 01 2012 03:08 Zocat wrote:On November 01 2012 02:20 Martijn wrote:On November 01 2012 02:08 Zocat wrote:On November 01 2012 00:48 Martijn wrote:On November 01 2012 00:39 SpikeStarcraft wrote:On November 01 2012 00:04 Martijn wrote:
Remember, sc2 is dying *sheepish smirk* Jokes aside, we'd be foolish threatening some kind of lockout. eSports is experimental marketing for most companies that aren't directly involved in gaming, they'd run at the mention of lockouts.
GoOdy quiting forced nothing that he couldn't have achieved by just talking to ESL directly. Better yet, he'd have gotten a clearer answer if he did. You'll note that the post is little more than a variation of what Carmac posted a year ago with new numbers ;p
Edit: As for the wall of text thing, I just didn't want to quote the whole thing and have it take up a screen. Yes i know that this statement doesnt mean anything. Dont you think goody tried more than once to talk to the esl the last 2 years? I think hes sick of empty promises and havin to keep track of his earnings and make sure that they pay all the time. No one likes to ask for money all the time. Talking doesnt solve anything. I know how it works, ive worked in a company with liquidity issues. You dont even look up the details you just say: "yes, yes actually its in process RIGHT NOW and it will be there soon." as i stated from my wall of text, it isnt an issue of not being able to pay. its a question of priority. and paying prize money has obviously the lowest priority. A threatened lockout would actually give esports more publicity and would help them evolve to a more serious sport. The main thing is to act together in a player union to stand up for your interests and negotiate the terms so that esl knows if they screw with one player, they have a problem with all of them. and we as a community cannot do that for the players. they have to do that by themselves. the good thing about esports is, that there are plenty of other competitions they can attend instead. the esl hasnt got a monopoly on esports broadcasting. they dont even provide the german podcast. they dont actually have that much power as long as the players arent fighting on their own. It would be on very short notice for next week i know. i dont think it would be a huge economic damage. it would be a sign that its more than just some isolated players occasionally complaining. Ideally you dont have to actually do a lockout because people gonna find a solution before that. ESL just needs more motivation to find a solution. I'm sure GoOdy did try to talk to them, but all he's saying is "I quit" and "2 years". So where's the discussion? Maybe ESL gave him perfectly good reasons, but for now all we're seeing is "they didn't pay" which is barely a statement to begin with. (Insert a big rant here about how bad it is to go and take things players/casters/teams post on social media and creating stories around it). + Show Spoiler +
Going on strike is going to scare off sponsors. To draw a simple comparison, would you invest in a company where the staff is on strike? If EPS were to disappear, no one is going to replace it. The 5-6 top level players in Germany have alternatives internationally (though with much fiercer competition), everyone else will be relegated to playing the weeklies.
Well if you're sure that Goody talked to them, why did you say earlier "GoOdy quiting forced nothing that he couldn't have achieved by just talking to ESL directly. Better yet, he'd have gotten a clearer answer if he did." which implicates that he didnt talk to ESL directly? As of now - no one here knows (and if one does please say so directly) if there were talks between Goody and the ESL, so you assuming that there were no talks and "attacking" Goody for that seems uncalled for. I also think Goody's statement was enough. He's quitting, since he doesnt receive his money. Everything else is unimportant and would imho just sound like excuses for failing to pay the player. Either players get paid or it's their right to leave without any further explanation. On the other hand, I agree with you about the boycott. For the reasons I posted earlier in this thread (team sponsor exposure, ...) it would just hurt the players. iirc Take is also benefiting from ESL, since they pay GEMA for him. First off I never attacked GoOdy and I resent that you'd make that implication. I merely pointed out that now was a bad time for him to make that statement. A good number of other people in this thread DID make the claim that it was some kind of ragequit which explains why now was a bad time for him to make the statement. For as much as you can even call something someone says on facebook a statement. Are you implying we should just assume ESL is trying to cheat players out of their money? Even though even GoOdy didn't state anything regarding what ESLs position? GoOdy of course isn't obligated to make any statement on anything, but it would benefit him to at least elaborate on what was going on. If he talked to them and I'm assuming he did, what was he told? Where's the rest of the conversation? You can't have clarity in these kind of situations without some kind of discourse which clearly isn't present here yet. You said multiple times the way Goody approaches the situation was bad, that's why I put the attacking in " ". But always under the assumption that he didnt talk to ESL ("GoOdy quiting forced nothing that he couldn't have achieved by just talking to ESL directly. ", "Players hate dealing with that kind of shit in general. Players and ESL at least need to establish a conversation if we're looking to get anywhere.", "It's pretty easy to approach the people at ESL. Have any of the pros that posted tried just directly asking? [the way that is worded = rhetorical question "Of course they didnt!"] There should at least be an open line of communication between the players and the league.") You should stop basing your argument under this unproven assumption. Or at least make it more clear that it's just based upon this assumption and dont present it as a fact. I'm convinced he didn't approach it well because his timing was poor. Several people have claimed it was some kind of ragequit because he only spoke up after his loss. If he had done it before his loss, or after a win, he would've had a much stronger position. It would've seemed a rational decision rather than an emotional one. It would've been better for him, I don't get how you can't grasp this.. He's painting a bad picture. Now, players do hate dealing with this crap and players, as a group, need to establish an open conversation with ESL. Something they can be held accountable for later. They still do because even if they're getting paid for one thing now, there's still much pending. If you want to read it as rhetorical, that's on you but I was inviting players to share what ESL told them. On November 01 2012 03:08 Zocat wrote:
And I dont say that we should assume that the ESL is trying to cheat players out of their money.
I say it's a fact that they cheat players out of their money. Even if that might not be their intention. They do it, and it's bad.
And for this there is no excuse. If he doesnt have the money after the timeframe (according to grigorin 180days after the season) there's nothing to discuss, and there is no need for any conversation between him and ESL. Cheating players out of their money means not paying them. At no point has it been established EPS Germany doesn't pay, they only take a very long time. Even with the old complaints, everything got settled, they've got a very clean record. EPS Nordic/UK/Benelux are far more suspect for that matter. 2nd part: Imho with interest, player dependency on prize money , it's cheating players out of their money. I think the important factor is that players dont know when they're paid. If ESL says "We will pay you after 7 months" it's ok (even though that's a long time). But the 180days after season ending are over. The being in the dark when they're paid is the cheating part imho. If my definition of cheating is wrong (or contradicting your own), I apologize. But that what I just said was what I meant Paying late & outside of fixed intervals = cheating out of money. I cannot comment on the other EPS. 1st part: Goody said during the Windows 8 release cup that he was thinking about quitting professional SC2 completely. Though him being reacquired earlier by ESC changed this opinion of course. (though I speculate his contract with ESC changed concerning him being required to play ESL if that ever was a point) But for me this hints to Goody not being satisfied with the SC2 scene (?) overall. And, because of this, it doesnt feel like a ragequit to me. More like "I am ready to quit, these are the things which annoy me. I accepted them earlier, but enough is enough. If you dont change them I'm out of here. No more chances". Doesnt feel emotional but calculated for me.
I completely agree that there should be more clarity and that's what really is wrong in this situation. So an open discussion between the players as a group and ESL seems like it'd be the best way to go. Pick a representative, get a full list of outstanding prizemoney and have a 30 minute meeting with ESL every 2 weeks to see what has been done in each case.
Beyond that, what you describe seems like a very emotional decision to me. Overal dissatisfaction, unwillingness to compromise and putting forth ultimatums. But I'm not a shrink, so who knows. Personally I think GoOdy hoped to speed things up and this was the way he thought would work best.
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if their business model works only by delaying liabilities over such a period of time it simply does not work. Period.
Why being afraid revolting ESL if they don't fullfil their part on the deal ? There's not much to loose individually, but much to win (more professionalism in esports).
I really wonder how they got away with this over so many years.
Go Go Goddy, he's right. He has my respect as he has balls obv
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On October 31 2012 18:31 USvBleakill wrote:don´t think so. It´s a part of their business plan to keep and work with the prize money as long as possible.
I prefer to give them benefit of the doubt.
Edit: I tend to give people benefit of the doubt before considering that they might be disgusting human beings. Dishonest business disgusts me more than almost anything. Although if they're broke and won't admit it that is somewhat dishonest. Its kind of a desperate flailing I could somewhat sympathize with though. No one wants to give up the business they've tried to build.
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On November 01 2012 01:50 Baum wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2012 20:53 Atrimex wrote:On October 31 2012 20:29 SinCitta wrote:On October 31 2012 20:13 yoshi7319 wrote:
slightly offtopic:
if esl ever wants to cut down expenses and save money
I suggest they get rid of those terrible "hosts" they have
whenever they´re casting offline deciders/cupfinals from their own studio like last weekend.
i get the idea of "production value" and putting on stuff inbetween games, but these two (the woman especially, sorry)...quite awkward, little knowledge. They already cut every host except those two. And they have both a Counter-Strike background. ESLTV's SC2 department seems to be English only. The host's job is to get the players talking and the woman's job is to interact with the community, but nonetheless they really should get more insight into SC2 and its scene. Worst moment: "Erm... there will be a Zerg... patch... What does the community think? Will it make Zerg more... playable and stronger than how it is now?" - about the Heart of the Swarm expansion. My impression was the total opposite. They had a very high production value for a 5.000 viewer show. Maybe too high. I agree, it was a pretty decent production. Your so called "worst moment" didn't actually happened that way. They asked a question about HOTS and it turned out none of the players had an opinion on it because nobody played HOTS.
http://www.twitch.tv//taketv/b/337067482?t=20m30s
Okay, I was paraphrasing from my memory and exchanged "is the [Zerg] race more attractive for you now?" with "playable and stronger".
And I didn't say that the production overall was bad. I said the hosts should get more ingame knowledge. We demand this from our international hosts, I don't know why we have different standards for them. It's the same job.
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On October 31 2012 23:14 MuMeise wrote:
actually... the solution is quite easy:
Get a lawyer and get the hell to court with it and also at least in germany you can just go to the police and press charges for free and the state will look into it.
No, the state will not into look into private law matters for you for free. You can bring those issues to the court, if you wish and that is not for free.
In germany if someone can't pay for 3 years... it's just illegal and you have to go into administration/bankruptcy if you can't pay it's as simple as that.
No discussion and no drama. Clean simple.
I say you owe me 500 Euros, you didn't pay me for 3 years. That's illegal. *cries* What about legally binding contracts and statue of limitiaions?
I would have been in court with them after 2 month not paying...hey this is about money.
No you wouldn't. AFAIK no one has ever taken anyone to court about a similar issue in Germany *ever*. Is a couple of hundred Euros really worth fighting over court when no one has got a clue how it would end?
And maybe people don't realize it, but behaviour like this is ruining the complete professional esport scene because if no one is paying then what is the point of being a progamer.
This is going on since eSports exists. Get your facts straight, don't just guess.
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I don't understand how this can go on for so long and in so many cases. Why don't progamers just stop competing in tournaments that don't pay pricemoney. Why don't they use the leverage they have?
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/a9dN0.jpg)
