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On November 01 2012 02:03 skeldark wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2012 02:01 DarKFoRcE wrote:
Got an Email today that we will get the prizemoney for the first season in 2011 in the next days. I guess we should complain publicly more often :D I said you. Letter from layer would do same thing. problem is: you get your money now but all the not famous guys still have to wait.
Well, at least the players didn't have to pay for the lawyer.
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ESL paid the Type players in reasonable time when the team was around.
It is indeed a difficult topic, I still feel that ESL is doing a very good job, they run IEM, they do great shows for viewers and work at their utmost to incorporate new sources of revenues to better support eSports development.
It's difficult but I'd say we should try to help them rather than go against them.
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On November 01 2012 02:10 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2012 02:03 skeldark wrote:On November 01 2012 02:01 DarKFoRcE wrote:
Got an Email today that we will get the prizemoney for the first season in 2011 in the next days. I guess we should complain publicly more often :D I said you. Letter from layer would do same thing. problem is: you get your money now but all the not famous guys still have to wait. Well, at least the players didn't have to pay for the lawyer.
You dont pay him they do.
The lawyer will say them that they have to pay, the cost of the lawyer , the prize money +5% for each year.
Thats the reason they instant pay. Because next letter will be, that they have to pay the price money, the lawyer and the court. They know they have to pay it, they know they are over time, they know they will loose.
Its the oldest trick ever. Pay everyone who wants to sue you, dont pay the rest.
Only one of 100 goes to a lawyer = good deal.
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On November 01 2012 02:13 skeldark wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2012 02:10 vthree wrote:On November 01 2012 02:03 skeldark wrote:On November 01 2012 02:01 DarKFoRcE wrote:
Got an Email today that we will get the prizemoney for the first season in 2011 in the next days. I guess we should complain publicly more often :D I said you. Letter from layer would do same thing. problem is: you get your money now but all the not famous guys still have to wait. Well, at least the players didn't have to pay for the lawyer. You dont pay him they do. The lawyer will say them that they have to pay him and the prize money in the letter. Thats the reason they instant pay. Because next letter will be, that they have to pay the price money, the lawyer and the court.
How would you know what's in the contracts. Maybe there is no time limit, just something "the prizemoney will be payed after all accounting for the event is finished". Then no lawyers will help you.
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On November 01 2012 02:18 grigorin wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2012 02:13 skeldark wrote:On November 01 2012 02:10 vthree wrote:On November 01 2012 02:03 skeldark wrote:On November 01 2012 02:01 DarKFoRcE wrote:
Got an Email today that we will get the prizemoney for the first season in 2011 in the next days. I guess we should complain publicly more often :D I said you. Letter from layer would do same thing. problem is: you get your money now but all the not famous guys still have to wait. Well, at least the players didn't have to pay for the lawyer. You dont pay him they do. The lawyer will say them that they have to pay him and the prize money in the letter. Thats the reason they instant pay. Because next letter will be, that they have to pay the price money, the lawyer and the court. How would you know what's in the contracts. Maybe there is no time limit, just something "the prizemoney will be payed after all accounting for the event is finished". Then no lawyers will help you.
He will. This part of the contract would be illegal.
"I pay some day in future " is not a valid contract. In this case the normal wait time would come in affect.
What is 3 weeks in germany i think.
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On November 01 2012 02:08 Zocat wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2012 00:48 Martijn wrote:On November 01 2012 00:39 SpikeStarcraft wrote:On November 01 2012 00:04 Martijn wrote:
Remember, sc2 is dying *sheepish smirk* Jokes aside, we'd be foolish threatening some kind of lockout. eSports is experimental marketing for most companies that aren't directly involved in gaming, they'd run at the mention of lockouts.
GoOdy quiting forced nothing that he couldn't have achieved by just talking to ESL directly. Better yet, he'd have gotten a clearer answer if he did. You'll note that the post is little more than a variation of what Carmac posted a year ago with new numbers ;p
Edit: As for the wall of text thing, I just didn't want to quote the whole thing and have it take up a screen. Yes i know that this statement doesnt mean anything. Dont you think goody tried more than once to talk to the esl the last 2 years? I think hes sick of empty promises and havin to keep track of his earnings and make sure that they pay all the time. No one likes to ask for money all the time. Talking doesnt solve anything. I know how it works, ive worked in a company with liquidity issues. You dont even look up the details you just say: "yes, yes actually its in process RIGHT NOW and it will be there soon." as i stated from my wall of text, it isnt an issue of not being able to pay. its a question of priority. and paying prize money has obviously the lowest priority. A threatened lockout would actually give esports more publicity and would help them evolve to a more serious sport. The main thing is to act together in a player union to stand up for your interests and negotiate the terms so that esl knows if they screw with one player, they have a problem with all of them. and we as a community cannot do that for the players. they have to do that by themselves. the good thing about esports is, that there are plenty of other competitions they can attend instead. the esl hasnt got a monopoly on esports broadcasting. they dont even provide the german podcast. they dont actually have that much power as long as the players arent fighting on their own. It would be on very short notice for next week i know. i dont think it would be a huge economic damage. it would be a sign that its more than just some isolated players occasionally complaining. Ideally you dont have to actually do a lockout because people gonna find a solution before that. ESL just needs more motivation to find a solution. I'm sure GoOdy did try to talk to them, but all he's saying is "I quit" and "2 years". So where's the discussion? Maybe ESL gave him perfectly good reasons, but for now all we're seeing is "they didn't pay" which is barely a statement to begin with. (Insert a big rant here about how bad it is to go and take things players/casters/teams post on social media and creating stories around it). + Show Spoiler +
Going on strike is going to scare off sponsors. To draw a simple comparison, would you invest in a company where the staff is on strike? If EPS were to disappear, no one is going to replace it. The 5-6 top level players in Germany have alternatives internationally (though with much fiercer competition), everyone else will be relegated to playing the weeklies.
Well if you're sure that Goody talked to them, why did you say earlier "GoOdy quiting forced nothing that he couldn't have achieved by just talking to ESL directly. Better yet, he'd have gotten a clearer answer if he did." which implicates that he didnt talk to ESL directly? As of now - no one here knows (and if one does please say so directly) if there were talks between Goody and the ESL, so you assuming that there were no talks and "attacking" Goody for that seems uncalled for. I also think Goody's statement was enough. He's quitting, since he doesnt receive his money. Everything else is unimportant and would imho just sound like excuses for failing to pay the player. Either players get paid or it's their right to leave without any further explanation. On the other hand, I agree with you about the boycott. For the reasons I posted earlier in this thread (team sponsor exposure, ...) it would just hurt the players. iirc Take is also benefiting from ESL, since they pay GEMA for him.
First off I never attacked GoOdy and I resent that you'd make that implication. I merely pointed out that now was a bad time for him to make that statement. A good number of other people in this thread DID make the claim that it was some kind of ragequit which explains why now was a bad time for him to make the statement. For as much as you can even call something someone says on facebook a statement.
Are you implying we should just assume ESL is trying to cheat players out of their money? Even though even GoOdy didn't state anything regarding what ESLs position? GoOdy of course isn't obligated to make any statement on anything, but it would benefit him to at least elaborate on what was going on. If he talked to them and I'm assuming he did, what was he told? Where's the rest of the conversation?
You can't have clarity in these kind of situations without some kind of discourse which clearly isn't present here yet.
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On November 01 2012 02:20 skeldark wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2012 02:18 grigorin wrote:On November 01 2012 02:13 skeldark wrote:On November 01 2012 02:10 vthree wrote:On November 01 2012 02:03 skeldark wrote:On November 01 2012 02:01 DarKFoRcE wrote:
Got an Email today that we will get the prizemoney for the first season in 2011 in the next days. I guess we should complain publicly more often :D I said you. Letter from layer would do same thing. problem is: you get your money now but all the not famous guys still have to wait. Well, at least the players didn't have to pay for the lawyer. You dont pay him they do. The lawyer will say them that they have to pay him and the prize money in the letter. Thats the reason they instant pay. Because next letter will be, that they have to pay the price money, the lawyer and the court. How would you know what's in the contracts. Maybe there is no time limit, just something "the prizemoney will be payed after all accounting for the event is finished". Then no lawyers will help you. He will. This part of the contract would be illegal. "I pay some day in future " is not a valid contract. In this case the normal wait time would come in affect. What is 3 weeks in germany i think.
Angestrebter Auszahlungstermin des Preisgeldes ist 90 Tage nach Abschluss der Playoffs der jeweiligen
Saison, spätestens jedoch 180 Tage nach Abschluss der jeweiligen Saison.
source
Seems they are even late for the 180 days deadline
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On November 01 2012 02:20 Martijn wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2012 02:08 Zocat wrote:On November 01 2012 00:48 Martijn wrote:On November 01 2012 00:39 SpikeStarcraft wrote:On November 01 2012 00:04 Martijn wrote:
Remember, sc2 is dying *sheepish smirk* Jokes aside, we'd be foolish threatening some kind of lockout. eSports is experimental marketing for most companies that aren't directly involved in gaming, they'd run at the mention of lockouts.
GoOdy quiting forced nothing that he couldn't have achieved by just talking to ESL directly. Better yet, he'd have gotten a clearer answer if he did. You'll note that the post is little more than a variation of what Carmac posted a year ago with new numbers ;p
Edit: As for the wall of text thing, I just didn't want to quote the whole thing and have it take up a screen. Yes i know that this statement doesnt mean anything. Dont you think goody tried more than once to talk to the esl the last 2 years? I think hes sick of empty promises and havin to keep track of his earnings and make sure that they pay all the time. No one likes to ask for money all the time. Talking doesnt solve anything. I know how it works, ive worked in a company with liquidity issues. You dont even look up the details you just say: "yes, yes actually its in process RIGHT NOW and it will be there soon." as i stated from my wall of text, it isnt an issue of not being able to pay. its a question of priority. and paying prize money has obviously the lowest priority. A threatened lockout would actually give esports more publicity and would help them evolve to a more serious sport. The main thing is to act together in a player union to stand up for your interests and negotiate the terms so that esl knows if they screw with one player, they have a problem with all of them. and we as a community cannot do that for the players. they have to do that by themselves. the good thing about esports is, that there are plenty of other competitions they can attend instead. the esl hasnt got a monopoly on esports broadcasting. they dont even provide the german podcast. they dont actually have that much power as long as the players arent fighting on their own. It would be on very short notice for next week i know. i dont think it would be a huge economic damage. it would be a sign that its more than just some isolated players occasionally complaining. Ideally you dont have to actually do a lockout because people gonna find a solution before that. ESL just needs more motivation to find a solution. I'm sure GoOdy did try to talk to them, but all he's saying is "I quit" and "2 years". So where's the discussion? Maybe ESL gave him perfectly good reasons, but for now all we're seeing is "they didn't pay" which is barely a statement to begin with. (Insert a big rant here about how bad it is to go and take things players/casters/teams post on social media and creating stories around it). + Show Spoiler +
Going on strike is going to scare off sponsors. To draw a simple comparison, would you invest in a company where the staff is on strike? If EPS were to disappear, no one is going to replace it. The 5-6 top level players in Germany have alternatives internationally (though with much fiercer competition), everyone else will be relegated to playing the weeklies.
Well if you're sure that Goody talked to them, why did you say earlier "GoOdy quiting forced nothing that he couldn't have achieved by just talking to ESL directly. Better yet, he'd have gotten a clearer answer if he did." which implicates that he didnt talk to ESL directly? As of now - no one here knows (and if one does please say so directly) if there were talks between Goody and the ESL, so you assuming that there were no talks and "attacking" Goody for that seems uncalled for. I also think Goody's statement was enough. He's quitting, since he doesnt receive his money. Everything else is unimportant and would imho just sound like excuses for failing to pay the player. Either players get paid or it's their right to leave without any further explanation. On the other hand, I agree with you about the boycott. For the reasons I posted earlier in this thread (team sponsor exposure, ...) it would just hurt the players. iirc Take is also benefiting from ESL, since they pay GEMA for him. First off I never attacked GoOdy and I resent that you'd make that implication. I merely pointed out that now was a bad time for him to make that statement. A good number of other people in this thread DID make the claim that it was some kind of ragequit which explains why now was a bad time for him to make the statement. For as much as you can even call something someone says on facebook a statement. Are you implying we should just assume ESL is trying to cheat players out of their money? Even though even GoOdy didn't state anything regarding what ESLs position? GoOdy of course isn't obligated to make any statement on anything, but it would benefit him to at least elaborate on what was going on. If he talked to them and I'm assuming he did, what was he told? Where's the rest of the conversation? You can't have clarity in these kind of situations without some kind of discourse which clearly isn't present here yet.
You said multiple times the way Goody approaches the situation was bad, that's why I put the attacking in " ". But always under the assumption that he didnt talk to ESL ("GoOdy quiting forced nothing that he couldn't have achieved by just talking to ESL directly. ", "Players hate dealing with that kind of shit in general. Players and ESL at least need to establish a conversation if we're looking to get anywhere.", "It's pretty easy to approach the people at ESL. Have any of the pros that posted tried just directly asking? [the way that is worded = rhetorical question "Of course they didnt!"] There should at least be an open line of communication between the players and the league.")
You should stop basing your argument under this unproven assumption. Or at least make it more clear that it's just based upon this assumption and dont present it as a fact.
And I dont say that we should assume that the ESL is trying to cheat players out of their money.
I say it's a fact that they cheat players out of their money. Even if that might not be their intention. They do it, and it's bad.
And for this there is no excuse. If he doesnt have the money after the timeframe (according to grigorin 180days after the season) there's nothing to discuss, and there is no need for any conversation between him and ESL.
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Even if you don't get prize money quick its still a good event. It has a lot of viewers so players and organisations get tons more exposure by playing it. Its like a million people more seeing the brands that sponsor you.
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In my opinion it's a shame that we even have to complain about not receiving any prize money... It should be a matter of days to get it. Otherwise the leagues should not be allowed to host any tournament at all.
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On November 01 2012 02:20 skeldark wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2012 02:18 grigorin wrote:On November 01 2012 02:13 skeldark wrote:On November 01 2012 02:10 vthree wrote:On November 01 2012 02:03 skeldark wrote:On November 01 2012 02:01 DarKFoRcE wrote:
Got an Email today that we will get the prizemoney for the first season in 2011 in the next days. I guess we should complain publicly more often :D I said you. Letter from layer would do same thing. problem is: you get your money now but all the not famous guys still have to wait. Well, at least the players didn't have to pay for the lawyer. You dont pay him they do. The lawyer will say them that they have to pay him and the prize money in the letter. Thats the reason they instant pay. Because next letter will be, that they have to pay the price money, the lawyer and the court. How would you know what's in the contracts. Maybe there is no time limit, just something "the prizemoney will be payed after all accounting for the event is finished". Then no lawyers will help you. He will. This part of the contract would be illegal. "I pay some day in future " is not a valid contract. In this case the normal wait time would come in affect. What is 3 weeks in germany i think.
No, I think it would be legal: http://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/bgb/__158.html for example.
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Not paying out prize money for 1.5 or sometimes even 3 years without even paying interest to the players eventually is clearly not legal. I really think that some German player should consider suing the ESL. However, I can also understand that they refrain from doing so in fear of losing money to lawyers or having to invest too much effort into it. Nothing is gonna change though unless somebody does this or periodically publicizes the ESL's incapability to pay out prize money.
You also have to consider that a lot of the player who win prize money on ESL events are not from Germany. The barrier to actually sue the ESL from a foreign country is way higher for obvious reasons. Also a lot of players are still young and don't know a ot about business topics. It's pretty shady business practices to take advantage of that in my opinion.
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On October 31 2012 17:34 bioboyAT wrote:I have won an ESL event for swiss/austria 1 1/2 years ago and also still haven't gotten my 600€ from ESL yet 
Yep it's sad. Once I won 75 Swiss francs at an ESL Cup and had to write about 5-6 mails to get the money. But at least I had it in the end.
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On November 01 2012 03:08 Zocat wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2012 02:20 Martijn wrote:On November 01 2012 02:08 Zocat wrote:On November 01 2012 00:48 Martijn wrote:On November 01 2012 00:39 SpikeStarcraft wrote:On November 01 2012 00:04 Martijn wrote:
Remember, sc2 is dying *sheepish smirk* Jokes aside, we'd be foolish threatening some kind of lockout. eSports is experimental marketing for most companies that aren't directly involved in gaming, they'd run at the mention of lockouts.
GoOdy quiting forced nothing that he couldn't have achieved by just talking to ESL directly. Better yet, he'd have gotten a clearer answer if he did. You'll note that the post is little more than a variation of what Carmac posted a year ago with new numbers ;p
Edit: As for the wall of text thing, I just didn't want to quote the whole thing and have it take up a screen. Yes i know that this statement doesnt mean anything. Dont you think goody tried more than once to talk to the esl the last 2 years? I think hes sick of empty promises and havin to keep track of his earnings and make sure that they pay all the time. No one likes to ask for money all the time. Talking doesnt solve anything. I know how it works, ive worked in a company with liquidity issues. You dont even look up the details you just say: "yes, yes actually its in process RIGHT NOW and it will be there soon." as i stated from my wall of text, it isnt an issue of not being able to pay. its a question of priority. and paying prize money has obviously the lowest priority. A threatened lockout would actually give esports more publicity and would help them evolve to a more serious sport. The main thing is to act together in a player union to stand up for your interests and negotiate the terms so that esl knows if they screw with one player, they have a problem with all of them. and we as a community cannot do that for the players. they have to do that by themselves. the good thing about esports is, that there are plenty of other competitions they can attend instead. the esl hasnt got a monopoly on esports broadcasting. they dont even provide the german podcast. they dont actually have that much power as long as the players arent fighting on their own. It would be on very short notice for next week i know. i dont think it would be a huge economic damage. it would be a sign that its more than just some isolated players occasionally complaining. Ideally you dont have to actually do a lockout because people gonna find a solution before that. ESL just needs more motivation to find a solution. I'm sure GoOdy did try to talk to them, but all he's saying is "I quit" and "2 years". So where's the discussion? Maybe ESL gave him perfectly good reasons, but for now all we're seeing is "they didn't pay" which is barely a statement to begin with. (Insert a big rant here about how bad it is to go and take things players/casters/teams post on social media and creating stories around it). + Show Spoiler +
Going on strike is going to scare off sponsors. To draw a simple comparison, would you invest in a company where the staff is on strike? If EPS were to disappear, no one is going to replace it. The 5-6 top level players in Germany have alternatives internationally (though with much fiercer competition), everyone else will be relegated to playing the weeklies.
Well if you're sure that Goody talked to them, why did you say earlier "GoOdy quiting forced nothing that he couldn't have achieved by just talking to ESL directly. Better yet, he'd have gotten a clearer answer if he did." which implicates that he didnt talk to ESL directly? As of now - no one here knows (and if one does please say so directly) if there were talks between Goody and the ESL, so you assuming that there were no talks and "attacking" Goody for that seems uncalled for. I also think Goody's statement was enough. He's quitting, since he doesnt receive his money. Everything else is unimportant and would imho just sound like excuses for failing to pay the player. Either players get paid or it's their right to leave without any further explanation. On the other hand, I agree with you about the boycott. For the reasons I posted earlier in this thread (team sponsor exposure, ...) it would just hurt the players. iirc Take is also benefiting from ESL, since they pay GEMA for him. First off I never attacked GoOdy and I resent that you'd make that implication. I merely pointed out that now was a bad time for him to make that statement. A good number of other people in this thread DID make the claim that it was some kind of ragequit which explains why now was a bad time for him to make the statement. For as much as you can even call something someone says on facebook a statement. Are you implying we should just assume ESL is trying to cheat players out of their money? Even though even GoOdy didn't state anything regarding what ESLs position? GoOdy of course isn't obligated to make any statement on anything, but it would benefit him to at least elaborate on what was going on. If he talked to them and I'm assuming he did, what was he told? Where's the rest of the conversation? You can't have clarity in these kind of situations without some kind of discourse which clearly isn't present here yet. You said multiple times the way Goody approaches the situation was bad, that's why I put the attacking in " ". But always under the assumption that he didnt talk to ESL ("GoOdy quiting forced nothing that he couldn't have achieved by just talking to ESL directly. ", "Players hate dealing with that kind of shit in general. Players and ESL at least need to establish a conversation if we're looking to get anywhere.", "It's pretty easy to approach the people at ESL. Have any of the pros that posted tried just directly asking? [the way that is worded = rhetorical question "Of course they didnt!"] There should at least be an open line of communication between the players and the league.") You should stop basing your argument under this unproven assumption. Or at least make it more clear that it's just based upon this assumption and dont present it as a fact.
I'm convinced he didn't approach it well because his timing was poor. Several people have claimed it was some kind of ragequit because he only spoke up after his loss. If he had done it before his loss, or after a win, he would've had a much stronger position. It would've seemed a rational decision rather than an emotional one. It would've been better for him, I don't get how you can't grasp this.. He's painting a bad picture.
Now, players do hate dealing with this crap and players, as a group, need to establish an open conversation with ESL. Something they can be held accountable for later. They still do because even if they're getting paid for one thing now, there's still much pending. If you want to read it as rhetorical, that's on you but I was inviting players to share what ESL told them.
On November 01 2012 03:08 Zocat wrote:
And I dont say that we should assume that the ESL is trying to cheat players out of their money.
I say it's a fact that they cheat players out of their money. Even if that might not be their intention. They do it, and it's bad.
And for this there is no excuse. If he doesnt have the money after the timeframe (according to grigorin 180days after the season) there's nothing to discuss, and there is no need for any conversation between him and ESL.
Cheating players out of their money means not paying them. At no point has it been established EPS Germany doesn't pay, they only take a very long time. Even with the old complaints, everything got settled, they've got a very clean record.
EPS Nordic/UK/Benelux are far more suspect for that matter.
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On November 01 2012 02:13 TypeLex wrote:
ESL paid the Type players in reasonable time when the team was around.
It is indeed a difficult topic, I still feel that ESL is doing a very good job, they run IEM, they do great shows for viewers and work at their utmost to incorporate new sources of revenues to better support eSports development.
It's difficult but I'd say we should try to help them rather than go against them.
should support an organization thats notoriously bad?
i play their events out of appreciation for intel, but they are terrible. player treatment is a very, very low priority for them. convention based events are always awful. they're famous for being bad about paying prize money, they usually do pay you eventually if you hassle them enough but you're lucky if you get it within 6 months most of the time.
and its not even like theyre pushing the envelope in terms of production quality or... anything. mlg and dreamhack clearly outclass them in terms of that. they just arent an organization that deserves much of anything from the community.
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On November 01 2012 04:06 Kumeni wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2012 02:20 skeldark wrote:On November 01 2012 02:18 grigorin wrote:On November 01 2012 02:13 skeldark wrote:On November 01 2012 02:10 vthree wrote:On November 01 2012 02:03 skeldark wrote:On November 01 2012 02:01 DarKFoRcE wrote:
Got an Email today that we will get the prizemoney for the first season in 2011 in the next days. I guess we should complain publicly more often :D I said you. Letter from layer would do same thing. problem is: you get your money now but all the not famous guys still have to wait. Well, at least the players didn't have to pay for the lawyer. You dont pay him they do. The lawyer will say them that they have to pay him and the prize money in the letter. Thats the reason they instant pay. Because next letter will be, that they have to pay the price money, the lawyer and the court. How would you know what's in the contracts. Maybe there is no time limit, just something "the prizemoney will be payed after all accounting for the event is finished". Then no lawyers will help you. He will. This part of the contract would be illegal. "I pay some day in future " is not a valid contract. In this case the normal wait time would come in affect. What is 3 weeks in germany i think. No, I think it would be legal: http://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/bgb/__158.html for example.
Im no lawyer, i just playing around. So i can talk total bullshit here. But anyways:
The text you link is over conditions.
"I pay one day" is not allowed because it does not include an condition. You can say "I pay when the sky turns red" but not "one day".
With an open condition there is nothing objective this party adds to the contract, but for an contract both partys have to add something to it. So you could argue the AGB/TOS is not a valid contract and so a "resonable Contract" that was accepted by invite and sign, comes into place: You play i pay.
Because this new contract have no rules written down, it gets the normal waiting time of 3 weeks.
Also with such a term in the AGB/ToS you can question the advertise.
When you advertise a tournament with an prize-pool, you can argue, that every human has to expect a pay out in reasonable time. In this case it would be wrong advertise up until fraud.
Also it is questionable if this point would not be against common rules ( Sittenwidrig)
Also you could argue, that with paying price money of past tournaments from future tournaments, they take debt without knowing if they are able to pay it back. (Insolvenzverschleppung). In this case it would not only be a civil law it would be a crime.
Long story short: you sue them and have a good shot to win.
I mean, even if you are complete wrong, your lawyer will find some laws that lets you look good 
Beside all the law, ESL will pay you just for not being in all news, for not paying prize-money.
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I guess the biggest inconvenience for a winner is that what if it goes 'bankrupt' or whatever the equivalent is? No one gets paid lol. Idk thats just my first thought.
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On November 01 2012 02:13 skeldark wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2012 02:10 vthree wrote:On November 01 2012 02:03 skeldark wrote:On November 01 2012 02:01 DarKFoRcE wrote:
Got an Email today that we will get the prizemoney for the first season in 2011 in the next days. I guess we should complain publicly more often :D I said you. Letter from layer would do same thing. problem is: you get your money now but all the not famous guys still have to wait. Well, at least the players didn't have to pay for the lawyer. You dont pay him they do. The lawyer will say them that they have to pay, the cost of the lawyer , the prize money +5% for each year. Thats the reason they instant pay. Because next letter will be, that they have to pay the price money, the lawyer and the court. They know they have to pay it, they know they are over time, they know they will loose. Its the oldest trick ever. Pay everyone who wants to sue you, dont pay the rest. Only one of 100 goes to a lawyer = good deal.
Theoretically, this is true.
In Practice, it is an absolutely naive expectation. Despite contracts, most financial disputes here end in compromise settlements, which translates to getting only portion of the money owed (typically half) and having to pay yourself for your lawyer fees. In something as unregulated and unusual as esports, chances are that a compromise settlement will be the best the players can expect. Even in the unlikely scenario that the players could win in court and receive all the money, while ESL having to pay for court and lawyer fees, the whole process can be delayed for years. This means that the players would have to pay for lawyers/court upfront and be reimbursed only after the final court decision.
(Obvisouly, I am talking about Germany. In Bulgaria, court decisions are won by whoever offers the most money...)
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1130
EPT
