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On October 31 2012 09:17 DarKFoRcE wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2012 09:15 Zocat wrote:
You need to keep in mind that EPS is basically German only scene.
We have teams like Alternate who are only interested in the German market, the same can be said about XMG and probably ESC.
An atn player earlier said in this thread: "I only participate, because my sponsor wants me to".
It's sponsor exposure to the German audience. Having players play in the local (German) league (EPS) might be enough of a reason to sponsor players who arent good enough on an international level.
Without those leagues there's no reason to sponsor those players. Yes. The german EPS is very good for us german players, without it i think we would be worse off. I actually think Goody will continue to play EPS, he was probably just angry. The prizemoney being paid out so late is of course really annoying and it shouldnt happen, but there is not much that can be done about it unfortunately...
it seems kind of unfair to be forced to play in a tournament for a nonexistent prize pool, or lose the actual source of income. at the same time i cannot blame the sponsors in this regard either.
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On October 31 2012 09:18 Striker.superfreunde wrote:Your prize money is here
you actually know what "urlaubsrückstellung" means? It means they are entitled to holidays, but they have not taken it in this accounting period -> they have to have reserves for when they actually make holidays.
the interesting part of this whole thing is:
9. Ergebnis der gewöhnlichen Geschäftstätigkeit -1.918.568,43 -2.835.410,2
Profit from ordinary activities
2010: -1.9 mio €
2011: -2.8 mio €
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On October 31 2012 09:07 Striker.superfreunde wrote:I don't have the effort to translate my text in english, but i would like to share my result; + Show Spoiler [german text] + 4. Sonstige Rückstellungen In den sonstigen Rückstellungen sind im Wesentlichen Rückstellungen für Urlaub und Provisionen enthalten. :wtf: Sonstige Verbindlichkeiten 1.520.792,87 €:lol: Das sind 53,56 % von den 2.806.775,86 € Verbindlichkeiten* (Schulden) die für private Zwecke der "privilgierteren" Gesellschafter gemacht wurden.  In die eigene Tasche gewirtschaftet :thumbdown: *Verbindlichkeiten sind Schulden eines Unternehmes. So, after reading the report from 2010, they had depts of 2.806.775,86 €. 53,56 % of this depts, were mentioned as "vacation and kickbacks"In other words: 50% of the overall depts were made by associates for their own benefits additionally to their generelly income.
This is plain wrong!
There is a huge difference between "Rückstellungen" (provisions) and "Verbindlichkeiten" (liabilities)! None of the €2.8 mio are provisions! The claim that "53,56 % of this depts, were mentioned as "vacation and kickbacks" is completely wrong. The 2.8 mio are purely liabilities! Out of the liabilities there are only 21 thousand that are towards the owners. The 1.5 mio are other liabilities. As far as the provisions are concerned, there were 350k in 2010 (and they have nothing to do with the 2.8 mio in liabilities), but it is not listed how much of them are "other provisions" (sonstige Rückstellungen) and are meant for "vacation and kickbacks". For all we know, none of them are.
(Also, provisions i probably not the correct translation. "Rückstellungen" is normally money that is put aside in order to be used to modernize or repair your technology in the future.)
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On October 31 2012 09:18 Striker.superfreunde wrote:Your prize money is here
Well, I dont think this is a smart point at all! I just checked there Homepage and it says that they have over 135 people working for them. That means that it is salary in the average amount of about 925€ per person per month.
I dont think, and nobody in there right state of mind could in IMHO, that this is a very high salary for people that work most likely crazy hours all around the week, since the events are normally on weekends and over a couple of days.
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Ok, sorry for missinformations 
It's late, and i haven't looked into any report for years.
Sorry guys! >.<
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Well since there is a legal obligation in Germany to publish the annual statement of a company, you can look it up at www.bundesanzeiger.de if you search for Turtle Entertainment. Its only in german, dunno if a google translation would work.
You can see the annual statement from 2010:
some small facts:
in 2010 they had:
2.806.775,86 € of liabilities ( 2.8 million €)
On November 04 2011 04:57 Carmac wrote: In total ESL owes 32,870 EUR and 400 USD to StarCraft II players.
1.024 k € accounts receivable (1.0 million €)
1.337 k € equity (1.3 million €)
operating (dis-)profit of
-1.985 k € ( - 2.0 million €) in 2010
-2.835 k € (-2.8 million €) in 2009
9.932 k € total net sales ( 9.9 million €)
- expenses
3.307 million € salaries and wages
8.707 million € other operating expenses (could be anything^^)
cash flow
injection of equity of
2.162 million € in 2010
3.500 million € in 2009
cash outflow in 2010
0.579 million € investment in financial assets
0.066 million € investment in tangible fixed assets
therefore an equity ratio of 29,3%, which is a decent value but they could only achieve it because there were investors injecting more than 5 million € from 2009-2010 into the company to compensate those losses. Otherwise im not sure if they could have avoided going bankrupt (speculation).
Thats the newest information you can find on the web, no idea how it developed the past two years.
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I received a notification about prize money a couple months ago from them. It'd been so long I didn't even remember they owed me anything.
Couldn't even remember which tournament it was about. But at least they paid. Only problem is, if they ever go bankrupt, those backlogged payment recipients for 1+ year are all fucked.
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Uh oh, here we go again. Why is it that the organizational skills of these organizations are downright embarrassing sometimes? At first, it just seemed like one would be inclined to protest how much pitch-forking there is (and trust me, obviously it does abound), but all things considered, most of those concerns turned out to be quite legitimate. It does seem like all these scandals stem from very real failures of organizations/teams/what have you... implying, of course, that the failures in management/organization are quite large in number as well as magnitude.
Since January 2011? Really? That's pretty bad lol.
But looking at how they're doing...wow, can't even really afford to pay :X YET on the other hand, this also means that paying the players is small money compared to other expenditures.
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regardless of their financial situation, the figures involved show, that the outstanding prize money is just peanuts compared to there overall operation expenses and revenues, so it is really badass to betray the players like this.
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On October 31 2012 09:48 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:
regardless of their financial situation, the figures involved show, that the outstanding prize money is just peanuts compared to there overall operation expenses and revenues, so it is really badass to betray the players like this.
The thing is, the players are the ones that can do the least. They kinda have to pay their employees, but players there is enough replacement 
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can anyone explain why if you search for turtle entertainment in google finance you get Playmates Toys Limited?
can't find any connection between the 2 so far
regardless of their financial situation, the figures involved show, that the outstanding prize money is just peanuts compared to there overall operation expenses and revenues, so it is really badass to betray the players like this.
Do the math, you'll see there isn't much leftover for prize money.
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On October 31 2012 09:42 LaLuSh wrote:
Only problem is, if they ever go bankrupt, those backlogged payment recipients for 1+ year are all fucked.
Sooner or later this might be the case. They are making new tournaments every month without having the money for them right now but always are sure they will have in the future.
They either will go bankrupt (within the next years or decades) or need to get a huge financial plus to be able to host new tournaments with having the prize money promised available.
Would be very sad to lose such a huge eventhoster though, they brought me into esports and i supported them for years with my money (until they cut wc3).
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On October 31 2012 05:57 SpikeStarcraft wrote:
I think it is justifiable to sue esl, i mean team alternate has all their player in eps, if they got to court together, i dont see how they can lose the trial.
i think the main problem is that esl has a lot of debt. I dunno.. if you add it up, all eps seasons for all countries since 2011. it could possibly be like 25,000 to 50,000 € aproximately. (just my own estimate, you could actually look up all the eps seasons and add up the price money.
If you sue them and force them to pay the money, i guess chances are quite high that they go bankrupt and nobody gets any money at all.
What's the point of suing them if they're broke? What do you hope to accomplish? Even if you were to win the lawsuit, you'd still have to figure out how to collect the money.
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ive always wondered why some players just dont boycott the ESL together? why is it just Goody? why dont they talk to each other and systematically boycott it or do something else against it(like the TL-Post by ClouD) to raise some awareness?
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Sounds like they're broke.
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On October 31 2012 16:38 Daumen wrote:
ive always wondered why some players just dont boycott the ESL together? why is it just Goody? why dont they talk to each other and systematically boycott it or do something else against it(like the TL-Post by ClouD) to raise some awareness?
It's their teams that decide not to boycott, which means the teams are half the bad guys here. Don't think these teams care if their players get money from tournaments. As long as the players advertise the brands and sponsors, teams are fine with this situation.
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On October 31 2012 11:20 BombaySensei wrote:
What's the point of suing them if they're broke? What do you hope to accomplish? Even if you were to win the lawsuit, you'd still have to figure out how to collect the money.
get their stuff (pc's,laptops etc) before others can.
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It sounds to me like what they are doing is holding on to the money for the tournaments for as long as possible and siphoning off the interest on the float. This is a common practice among publishers who are very open about paying writers on delay to collect money from the float.
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do they at least pay interest? oterhwise all the players are losing money to inflation over the course of 1,5/2 years..
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On October 31 2012 09:42 LaLuSh wrote:
I received a notification about prize money a couple months ago from them. It'd been so long I didn't even remember they owed me anything.
Couldn't even remember which tournament it was about. But at least they paid. Only problem is, if they ever go bankrupt, those backlogged payment recipients for 1+ year are all fucked.
I think this is the biggest problem: The payments are so late, that you cannot even tell whether you get them at all.
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EPT
