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On October 23 2012 02:08 FXOUnstable wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2012 01:50 Cuce wrote:On October 23 2012 01:36 FXOUnstable wrote:On October 23 2012 01:27 Hardigan wrote:On October 23 2012 01:16 Swords wrote:
When a sports team, be it esports or real sports, has the kinds of problems SlayerS evidently did it really seems silly to assign blame. For things to go as poorly as they apparently did everyone is to blame - top to bottom - the players, the management, the coaches, the owners.
This public smear campaign has not done anyone any favors, except for revealing eSF trying to pull some KeSPA-like actions. This is a good thing, but Jessica's seeming attempts to place blame on the players is misguided. If the atmosphere in the SlayerS house had been good we wouldn't see players being punished as their teammates would help keep them in line. We wouldn't see a mass exodus of SlayerS players to other teams as with Sleep, Golden, Dragon, Taeja, and Ganzi.
I just wish this team had been allowed to die in the dignified fashion it deserved. Right now everyone's name is being dragged through the mud as they all blame each other. If they could just share the blame, as there's plenty of it to go around, everything would be so much easier. the problem is, if Jessica wouldn't have said something, everybody would blame her for Slayer's disbanding. So she did what probably most Korean would have done: trying to save your face. The issue with this is that she was the owner of the team, in the end she has no one to blame but herself. It was her responsibility to make sure that things were getting done in a proper fashion, players not practicing? make sure they do or remove them. Having someone else handle the sponsorship negotiations? Should always get regular reports and updates and make sure things are going well, if they arent, step in and do it yourself. She can try to save face all she wants but blaming others as to why her team went under only shows that she wasn't suitable for the position in the first place. ok I get how its jessicas responsibility to keep the team up and running, and yes disbandin is her fault. but this does not get everyone else clear of fault. I agree with you, it just seems like its being overlooked heavily during all of this.
I think it can be summed up to, mostly, a lot of poor communication. As for the players individually:
-What MMA did was stupid but I don't think it was malicious.
-Alicia I can't speak for since he's apparently in legal trouble (T_T!!) but over what we don't know.
-Crank I will stand behind one hundred percent because he tried to do the right thing and talk it over, but was very understandably upset when people didn't listen to him.
-Ryung just seems to have gotten caught in the middle of it all.
The eSF situation however I don't think can be worked around...that was wrong and everyone knows it was wrong, however I doubt that it alone could have brought down this team. I still honestly think there was just a lot of bad communication leading to the demonizing of some the players, and that just caused too many cracks to be repaired and eventually it all just...gave out.
Just my thoughts.
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On October 23 2012 02:16 mikedebo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2012 02:08 FXOUnstable wrote:On October 23 2012 01:50 Cuce wrote:On October 23 2012 01:36 FXOUnstable wrote:On October 23 2012 01:27 Hardigan wrote:On October 23 2012 01:16 Swords wrote:
When a sports team, be it esports or real sports, has the kinds of problems SlayerS evidently did it really seems silly to assign blame. For things to go as poorly as they apparently did everyone is to blame - top to bottom - the players, the management, the coaches, the owners.
This public smear campaign has not done anyone any favors, except for revealing eSF trying to pull some KeSPA-like actions. This is a good thing, but Jessica's seeming attempts to place blame on the players is misguided. If the atmosphere in the SlayerS house had been good we wouldn't see players being punished as their teammates would help keep them in line. We wouldn't see a mass exodus of SlayerS players to other teams as with Sleep, Golden, Dragon, Taeja, and Ganzi.
I just wish this team had been allowed to die in the dignified fashion it deserved. Right now everyone's name is being dragged through the mud as they all blame each other. If they could just share the blame, as there's plenty of it to go around, everything would be so much easier. the problem is, if Jessica wouldn't have said something, everybody would blame her for Slayer's disbanding. So she did what probably most Korean would have done: trying to save your face. The issue with this is that she was the owner of the team, in the end she has no one to blame but herself. It was her responsibility to make sure that things were getting done in a proper fashion, players not practicing? make sure they do or remove them. Having someone else handle the sponsorship negotiations? Should always get regular reports and updates and make sure things are going well, if they arent, step in and do it yourself. She can try to save face all she wants but blaming others as to why her team went under only shows that she wasn't suitable for the position in the first place. ok I get how its jessicas responsibility to keep the team up and running, and yes disbandin is her fault. but this does not get everyone else clear of fault. I agree with you, it just seems like its being overlooked heavily during all of this. Let's put it this way: If Jessica's announcement had been something along the lines of: Here are the things I did wrong: - etc And here are things we tried to work around but couldn't: - ESF etc then I would have been at least willing to go along with her. All I heard was "this is everyone else's fault", which is a pathetic excuse for failure in any circumstance. Edit: To clarify, I agree with you -- I'm sure there was a lot of stupidity from all directions. If only it had been communicated more clearly 
THIS.
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On October 23 2012 02:00 Zocat wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2012 01:38 tMomiji wrote:
I'm just really disappointed that they blame so much on Crank. I can understand wanting to leave an upsetting environment, I honestly hope that MMA joins Axiom along with Ryung and Crank so that they can all be in a better environment together. I just wonder what has happened with Alicia - not because I want to pry, but because he's a player I really like and I hope he will be okay. The problem is how he left. He says "So when I told her that I wanted to leave the team I made sure to tell her that it's not because of money" and "I was preparing to quit my gaming career", and then a short time after he left he suddenly joins a foreign team (which are known to have a lot of money). I personally can easily understand that someone would connect the dots in such a way that he just lied to get out of SlayerS. And I can also understand how some people are angry about such behavior. Such a misunderstanding could've been prevented by him if he contacted SlayerS after the Axiom offer and explained his change of mind. But he apparently didnt care what SlayerS thought of him, or the relationship was too bad to have such a talk - I dont know (it could even be the case they had such a talk which wasnt fruitful).
Well, Axion did not exist when he left Slayers so it's not possible for him to get an offer from Axiom. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if someone said Axiom was formed because TB/Genna heard how bad Korean players are treated from Crank (although, this is just pure speculation. I am sure that TB has more resource than that).
So I would say that his mistake was to stream after leave Slayers house and try to find a foreign team before officially leave the team.
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What I get from all this is that CranK is possibly "one of those people"; a pathological liar that manipulates and pits people against each other just because.
TB and Gemma better think twice to trust him 100%. After all, it was merely his sob story that convinced them to fund axiom.
User was warned for this post
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On October 23 2012 02:05 Salazarz wrote:
Crank's interview answer don't add up at all. 'Poor coaching / management' doesn't explain how would the previously unknown, newer members of Slayers suddenly start to make a splash. On top of that, I'm pretty sure most players don't have a lot of 'direct' coaching in general - if a player like MMA starts underperforming, it's not Boxer or Cella's job to make him play better through telling him what to do. If there is an attitude problem (which there obviously was), there is very little the management could do, and chances are most things they could try would be viewed as pushing the players around.
Of course Jessica / Boxer could have handled things differently; cut out the players who weren't willing to put in their best any more and rebuild the way TSL did way back, they could get through it - but I'm guessing there was also a lot of emotional attachment involved (after all, Boxer did consider MMA his 'heir', and regardless of who was at fault it's not much of a stretch to assume Boxer would feel very disappointed about this situation), on top of that Boxer had the opportunity to go back to his original team rather than trying to deal with all the drama and bad blood going on in Slayers lately - it's easy to see why would they choose to call it quits instead of attempting to rebuild after losing their ex-top talent and going through the troubles with sponsors, having to invest more of their personal money, etc.
And with statements like the ones posted by Alicia and Crank, it's kinda obvious why is Jessica ready to throw them to the wolves alongside with the team disbanding.
Er.. yes, that is precisely what a coach is supposed to do in that case. It's their job to get the best out of their players.
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another interview coming up shortly from jessica (source: her twitter)
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On October 23 2012 02:00 Zocat wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2012 01:38 tMomiji wrote:
I'm just really disappointed that they blame so much on Crank. I can understand wanting to leave an upsetting environment, I honestly hope that MMA joins Axiom along with Ryung and Crank so that they can all be in a better environment together. I just wonder what has happened with Alicia - not because I want to pry, but because he's a player I really like and I hope he will be okay. The problem is how he left. He says "So when I told her that I wanted to leave the team I made sure to tell her that it's not because of money" and "I was preparing to quit my gaming career", and then a short time after he left he suddenly joins a foreign team (which are known to have a lot of money). I personally can easily understand that someone would connect the dots in such a way that he just lied to get out of SlayerS. And I can also understand how some people are angry about such behavior. Such a misunderstanding could've been prevented by him if he contacted SlayerS after the Axiom offer and explained his change of mind. But he apparently didnt care what SlayerS thought of him, or the relationship was too bad to have such a talk - I dont know (it could even be the case they had such a talk which wasnt fruitful).
Actually, it's pretty certain that the reason why he left was for a large part to search for a foreign team. The statement from Slayers that he left the team due to neck problems was on the 26th of July. According to both statements, he was still on the team on the 21st of July and most likely a couple more days after. I've gathered evidence that he was streaming from the 25th onwards for long periods of time a day. During those streams he actively engaged with foreigners asking them how best he could contact and join foreign teams. I might also add that he specifically started streaming those days at 6am KST (sometimes even earlier), which is the best time to stream for US and the worst time to stream for Korea. He laddered during the streams on US server as Korean server is nearly dead at that time.
http://i.imgur.com/hxnNV.png 3 months ago · 2,826 views · 1.19 GB bandwidth
http://i.imgur.com/FPwxm.png July 25th.
On July 25 2012 23:41 Ingebrigtsen wrote:
wow, he should really get some love, waking up at 6 am just so that he could stream at a good time, big props
To leave the team, while explicitly stating you are going to take a rest and not going in search for (foreign) teams, while doing so the very day you are released is damning evidence to me that he lied.
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On October 23 2012 02:25 stew_ wrote:
another interview coming up shortly from jessica (source: her twitter)
I expect more rage from Jessica... She needs to release the recorded call already.
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On October 23 2012 02:23 latan wrote:
What I get from all this is that CranK is possibly "one of those people"; a pathological liar that manipulates and pits people against each other just because.
TB and Gemma better think twice to trust him 100%. After all, it was merely his sob story that convinced them to fund axiom.
Axiom didn't even exist when Crank left. How could he have lied? Axiom picked him up and rekindled his desire to play. People change their minds - does that make them liars? No...it makes them human. He was lonely and wanted a team again - he realized what he was missing, but he obviously couldn't go back to a bad environment.
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So, am I the only one that thinks today's XKCD comic may be especially fitting for not only this thread, but a lot of threads lately?
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On October 23 2012 02:30 tMomiji wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2012 02:23 latan wrote:
What I get from all this is that CranK is possibly "one of those people"; a pathological liar that manipulates and pits people against each other just because.
TB and Gemma better think twice to trust him 100%. After all, it was merely his sob story that convinced them to fund axiom. Axiom didn't even exist when Crank left. How could he have lied? Axiom picked him up and rekindled his desire to play. People change their minds - does that make them liars? No...it makes them human. He was lonely and wanted a team again - he realized what he was missing, but he obviously couldn't go back to a bad environment.
Maybe you should read what I wrote. There's evidence that he did. While Axiom did come into the picture later, he definately was out for a foreign team at the time of his release.
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On October 23 2012 02:29 geokilla wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2012 02:25 stew_ wrote:
another interview coming up shortly from jessica (source: her twitter) I expect more rage from Jessica... She needs to release the recorded call already.
An English-Korean speaker could actually just sit around all day translating all the releases Jessica does and make a living out of it if he got payed.
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On October 23 2012 02:35 Shival wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2012 02:30 tMomiji wrote:On October 23 2012 02:23 latan wrote:
What I get from all this is that CranK is possibly "one of those people"; a pathological liar that manipulates and pits people against each other just because.
TB and Gemma better think twice to trust him 100%. After all, it was merely his sob story that convinced them to fund axiom. Axiom didn't even exist when Crank left. How could he have lied? Axiom picked him up and rekindled his desire to play. People change their minds - does that make them liars? No...it makes them human. He was lonely and wanted a team again - he realized what he was missing, but he obviously couldn't go back to a bad environment. Maybe you should read what I wrote. There's evidence that he did. While Axiom did come into the picture later, he definately was out for a foreign team at the time of his release.
NBA players such as Dwight Howard said they want to play for X team while he was still a Orlando Magic player, and continued to do so until he was finally traded. While it's not good for team chemistry, does that make him a liar because he denied trade rumours and his intentions?
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Eagerly awaiting the MMA interview translation. Seemed to have gotten a lot of replies from the Koreans.
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On October 23 2012 02:20 tMomiji wrote:
The eSF situation however I don't think can be worked around...that was wrong and everyone knows it was wrong, however I doubt that it alone could have brought down this team. I still honestly think there was just a lot of bad communication leading to the demonizing of some the players, and that just caused too many cracks to be repaired and eventually it all just...gave out.
Just my thoughts.
This is where my opinion changes slightly compared to most, now I am in no way condoning what was done and I have expressed to Choya how severe doing something like this is, even though it wasn't for very long and was the former sc2con organisation which FXO withdrew from.
If this were to happen to my team, being forced to practice completely in-house. I wouldn't actually be too phased by it, I mean, we have 16 players of ranging skill levels, a good spread of races 6z/5p/5t enough accounts to make sure we can stay anonymous on ladder so it's not like they wouldn't be able to practice.
There is replay sharing throughout all of SC2 at the moment especially in korea, its like "hey do you have replays of X" "yea I practised with him last week for GSL, here" so its a double edged sword, you get the practice for the RO32 but there's also the risk that your replays are then sent to your opponent that you face in the RO16.
So if that were to happen to FXO I wouldn't really be angry about it, I would probably be happy and just laugh to myself going "well now you have no idea how to handle our players in tournaments" This is of course only possible due to the way our house is setup though.
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On October 23 2012 02:29 geokilla wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2012 02:25 stew_ wrote:
another interview coming up shortly from jessica (source: her twitter) I expect more rage from Jessica... She needs to release the recorded call already.
well a transcript of the 58 minute long recording is going to be released.
thats why its taking so long
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On October 23 2012 02:38 geokilla wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2012 02:35 Shival wrote:On October 23 2012 02:30 tMomiji wrote:On October 23 2012 02:23 latan wrote:
What I get from all this is that CranK is possibly "one of those people"; a pathological liar that manipulates and pits people against each other just because.
TB and Gemma better think twice to trust him 100%. After all, it was merely his sob story that convinced them to fund axiom. Axiom didn't even exist when Crank left. How could he have lied? Axiom picked him up and rekindled his desire to play. People change their minds - does that make them liars? No...it makes them human. He was lonely and wanted a team again - he realized what he was missing, but he obviously couldn't go back to a bad environment. Maybe you should read what I wrote. There's evidence that he did. While Axiom did come into the picture later, he definately was out for a foreign team at the time of his release. NBA players such as Dwight Howard said they want to play for X team while he was still a Orlando Magic player, and continued to do so until he was finally traded. While it's not good for team chemistry, does that make him a liar because he denied trade rumours and his intentions?
Crank specifically stated to his team (Jessica, Boxer and Cella) that he would not be on the lookout for a team and would take a rest. I don't know how your world works, but that's lying.
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On October 23 2012 02:38 geokilla wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2012 02:35 Shival wrote:On October 23 2012 02:30 tMomiji wrote:On October 23 2012 02:23 latan wrote:
What I get from all this is that CranK is possibly "one of those people"; a pathological liar that manipulates and pits people against each other just because.
TB and Gemma better think twice to trust him 100%. After all, it was merely his sob story that convinced them to fund axiom. Axiom didn't even exist when Crank left. How could he have lied? Axiom picked him up and rekindled his desire to play. People change their minds - does that make them liars? No...it makes them human. He was lonely and wanted a team again - he realized what he was missing, but he obviously couldn't go back to a bad environment. Maybe you should read what I wrote. There's evidence that he did. While Axiom did come into the picture later, he definately was out for a foreign team at the time of his release. NBA players such as Dwight Howard said they want to play for X team while he was still a Orlando Magic player, and continued to do so until he was finally traded. While it's not good for team chemistry, does that make him a liar because he denied trade rumours and his intentions?
Thanks. The point is that Crank wanted a better environment and I don't see why people are hating him for that.
I'm also shocked by the sheer amount of hate poor Alicia is getting!! It's obvious that more than one person has had a problem with Jessica; his claims may very well be justified...maybe I'm biased because I'm a fan of his but, wow...one incident of care does not mean he was always treated well...
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On October 23 2012 02:42 mongmong wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2012 02:29 geokilla wrote:On October 23 2012 02:25 stew_ wrote:
another interview coming up shortly from jessica (source: her twitter) I expect more rage from Jessica... She needs to release the recorded call already. well a transcript of the 58 minute long recording is going to be released. thats why its taking so long
What about the actual recording?
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On October 23 2012 02:41 FXOUnstable wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2012 02:20 tMomiji wrote:
The eSF situation however I don't think can be worked around...that was wrong and everyone knows it was wrong, however I doubt that it alone could have brought down this team. I still honestly think there was just a lot of bad communication leading to the demonizing of some the players, and that just caused too many cracks to be repaired and eventually it all just...gave out.
Just my thoughts. This is where my opinion changes slightly compared to most, now I am in no way condoning what was done and I have expressed to Choya how severe doing something like this is, even though it wasn't for very long and was the former sc2con organisation which FXO withdrew from. If this were to happen to my team, being forced to practice completely in-house. I wouldn't actually be too phased by it, I mean, we have 16 players of ranging skill levels, a good spread of races 6z/5p/5t enough accounts to make sure we can stay anonymous on ladder so it's not like they wouldn't be able to practice. There is replay sharing throughout all of SC2 at the moment especially in korea, its like "hey do you have replays of X" "yea I practised with him last week for GSL, here" so its a double edged sword, you get the practice for the RO32 but there's also the risk that your replays are then sent to your opponent that you face in the RO16. So if that were to happen to FXO I wouldn't really be angry about it, I would probably be happy and just laugh to myself going "well now you have no idea how to handle our players in tournaments" This is of course only possible due to the way our house is setup though.
Ahh, that makes sense! Interesting. Sounds like a good setup you guys have! I suppose Slayers was unhappy because they already had stress in-house, however, so being forced to practice in-house more than likely just made things worse.
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EPT
