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Pwnographics
New Zealand1097 Posts
- Clan support. - Watching your friends play. - Rewards i.e hats. - LAN support oncoming. - Good chat channels. - Commending system. - And the list goes on. I used to play SC2 but now it's just boring to macro until I get a nice ball and see who has a nicer ball. The game is boring (I practically fall asleep in pro games, nothing happens for 30 minutes then ball vs ball) and the community support features suck. | ||
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SupLilSon
Malaysia4123 Posts
On October 17 2012 22:23 boxman22 wrote: LoL/Dota are actually not casual in the slightest. They have GIGANTIC learning curves and have horrible communities that rage at anyone new. LoL literally took Dota's game design, made it super casual friendly and used a F2P model. | ||
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TangYiChen
Korea (South)195 Posts
On October 17 2012 22:28 theniceninja wrote: I'm new to Esports and the whole scene. I only became interested when SC2 released, even then it took me a while to get really into it. I've watched some Dota 2 and I have a beta key, but I'm only half interested. LoL is just painful to watch, and I can't believe so many people want to watch it, let alone play it. These games exploded really fast and I think lots of people like Destiny are just mad that their favorite game (sc2) isn't as popular. Remember with most things in life, "the bigger they are the harder they fall". You say Brood War was popular for 10 years in South Korea? Brood War is an expansion to sc1. How long was that game out before it started gaining popularity? SC2 has just been out for 2 years! It has no expansion, apparently HOTS is still in "experimental beta mode". I think we all need to have a little patience and faith. LoL is not going to last, and SC2 has two planned expansions still to come. I have this problem in my personal life where you just want to be able to DO SOMETHING to change what is going on around you, but I've learned sometimes you can't do anything and you just have to wait and do little things that you can hope will have an impact later. I'm just gonna keep playing and loving SC2 for a long time I think. all I ever do is 1v1s and I find custom maps and games pretty boring, so I like the system in place. I'm curious as to why you think LoL isn't going to last. The number of people playing and watching LoL is far greater than SC2. SC2 streamers that used to get 6000+ viewers are struggling to keep 3000. The Day9 Daily used to have over 10,000 people watching it, but when I turned it on last night (for the first time in a while), he only had 3000. Sure if they stream more, then there is more availability of it and they will get less viewers, but LoL has a HUGE following. It is just simply more fun to play. I have more fun playing LoL with my friends than SC2, and I am Masters SC2. Also, the most recent LoL tournament had hundreds of thousands of viewers (probably because there aren't many LoL tournaments like there are SC2 and the prize pool was $2 million). SC2 just doesn't get that kind of viewership. I agree SC1 is big because of its expansion, BW, but HotS definitely does not look promising. I think SC2 just needs a huge rework. The meta is very, very boring. The only thing that's fun for me in SC2 is improving. | ||
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Kambing
United States1176 Posts
On October 17 2012 22:36 LOLItsRyann wrote: I stopped playing SC2 a year back to switch to LoL, I'm playing SC2 again now but nowhere near as much. I love the way Riot just handle LoL, new champion every patch, new skins, the report and honor system, champion spotlights, community spotlights, loads of youtube channels dedicated to top 5 this and that. It's so much better than SC2 in that regard. And of course the IP/RP system, do you know how much of my playing is fueled by the rewards so I can collect new champions? Like someone else said earlier, there's just no motivation to playing SC2. For me I'm playing at the moment to get promoted to Diamond. But there's only so many leagues you can go. Another thing about LoL, the spectator system. I can log on one day and literally jump into a professionals game and watch what's going on first hand. I can jump into my friends games and watch them. None of that in SC2. I think the saddest part is, that what the community are asking for: How difficult can it be to implement simple things like this. Uh. Hard. Ironically, heavier community involvement and integration is the easiest of them things you listed, but keep in mind that the ecosystems of LoL and Starcraft are different --- LoL is primarily driven by Riot, Starcraft is driven primarily by community websites --- so even that isn't straightforward. But no. The IP/RP system and spectator system are fundamental changes to the game which requires careful thought and significant time to implement. | ||
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SilSol
Sweden2744 Posts
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Chronos.
United States805 Posts
I like one point especially in here, Blizzard is trying so hard to cater to casual players, but the fact is that casual players really don't play 1v1's all that much. They should make 1v1's as hard-core as possible, no excuses that they wanna make it noob friendly or easier because noobs like watching high-skill competitive matches and will appreciate it more if it's even harder for them. If they actually want to be noob friendly just give better custom game support and social aspects, it's as simple as that. Let me give some perspective on my personal experience that relates to this: I'm a Zerg player who is in Masters as Zerg and Protoss. I love the competitive aspect, and about 90 - 95% of my games are 1v1's. Now I have two younger cousins and a few other friends that love RTS's but just play it more casually. About 15% of the games they play are 1v1's. In fact, they play SC2 quite a lot, especially in summer etc, but they love playing things like team games with me, micro maps, unlimited money maps, moba's, and tower defenses. All of us like watching competitive Starcraft (obviously I watch it more than them), but we all watching high-skill games regardless of our personal skill. So yeah, making the core 1v1 game require more skill is better for everyone, including noobs. Blizzard's other main priority should be giving the game a better, more user-friendly interface with more social aspects and such that everyone has been begging for since day one. | ||
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Penecks
United States600 Posts
If I am playing Dota2 and someone logs on and wants to play he can spec my game, we can chat about it, then when it's over go play together. In SC2 it's more like "yeah sorry busy playing 1v1". There is nothing to talk about (and hard to since if you fuck up your build order or micro you might lose), just playing by yourself. The most you can do to emulate the tournaments is to play 1v1 with your friends, and that gets old quickly, especially if they are noticeably worse than you. I'm not sure what Blizzard can do, maybe add some mini tournaments or something to spice up the 1v1, since ladder is just boring and lonesome. In other words, add features that existed in Warcraft3, sadly. | ||
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nojok
France15845 Posts
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iPlaY.NettleS
Australia4329 Posts
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Cuce
Turkey1127 Posts
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LOLItsRyann
England551 Posts
On October 17 2012 22:46 Kambing wrote: Uh. Hard. Ironically, heavier community involvement and integration is the easiest of them things you listed, but keep in mind that the ecosystems of LoL and Starcraft are different --- LoL is primarily driven by Riot, Starcraft is driven primarily by community websites --- so even that isn't straightforward. But no. The IP/RP system and spectator system are fundamental changes to the game which requires careful thought and significant time to implement. Exactly my point, SC2 is driven primarily by community websites. That alone is not right, and regardless of reasons, LoL is far more popular than SC2 is. Whatever Riot are doing that Blizzard are not, it's working, and Starcraft is slowly going to decline and become obsolete. Also, don't get me wrong, I know it's not easy to implement such things, but it's Blizzard, it's Riot, they have the knowledge to be able to do it. So while it might be hard as such, it cannot be 'that' hard for Blizzard to do. | ||
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ArcticRaven
France1406 Posts
On October 17 2012 22:40 WniO wrote: hots will be fine, not dead. now go away destiny. I'm blown away by your arguments. | ||
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Kambing
United States1176 Posts
On October 17 2012 22:42 TangYiChen wrote: I'm curious as to why you think LoL isn't going to last. The number of people playing and watching LoL is far greater than SC2. SC2 streamers that used to get 6000+ viewers are struggling to keep 3000. The Day9 Daily used to have over 10,000 people watching it, but when I turned it on last night (for the first time in a while), he only had 3000. Sure if they stream more, then there is more availability of it and they will get less viewers, but LoL has a HUGE following. It is just simply more fun to play. I have more fun playing LoL with my friends than SC2, and I am Masters SC2. Also, the most recent LoL tournament had hundreds of thousands of viewers (probably because there aren't many LoL tournaments like there are SC2 and the prize pool was $2 million). SC2 just doesn't get that kind of viewership. I agree SC1 is big because of its expansion, BW, but HotS definitely does not look promising. I think SC2 just needs a huge rework. The meta is very, very boring. The only thing that's fun for me in SC2 is improving. Numbers now aren't necessarily indicative of a game's continued success. World of Warcraft arena attracted lots of viewers thanks to its built-in population, and that didn't last because (1) the game was fundamentally difficult to follow from a spectator's perspective and (2) Blizzard didn't push it hard as a legitimate e-sport (albeit that wasn't the terminology of the day) from neither a balance nor marketing perspective. People seem to agree that LoL (dota-style games in general) are tougher to follow from an outsider's perspective. However, Riot and Valve are doing a much better job of pushing their games forward. | ||
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Basique
Korea (South)40 Posts
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FuzZyLogic
United States141 Posts
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BriMikon
United States82 Posts
I still have plenty of hope by the time the 2nd expansion comes out though. | ||
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hitpoint
United States1511 Posts
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wacksteven
United States139 Posts
Liquid`Nazgul The current prize money level represents that of a very serious sport. We need to be making some strides in better payout structures, and rewarding more spots, but in the grand scheme of things, we are in a decent place. There is enough prize money to keep developing this scene. It's always good to improve payouts, but it's not something that keeps this from being a successful sport. This is somewhat true as evidenced by a lot of what went on with CGS. (I'm sure djWHEAT would be great to talk on this subject) I think it's hard to prove, though. Dota uses a top-down approach where they start with competitive play and expect this to trickle down. I think the success of BroodWar in Korea relied on competitive play first, casual play second. There are even the success stories of mods such as Dota1 and Counter-Strike, where accessibility was not the primary concern. The reason these games succeeded is off of competitive play. The reason that these games did so well is not ONLY because of competitive play, but it's ALSO through the introduction of new players to the game. New players are the LIFEBLOOD of any competitive game. As soon as there are no new players a game will die off in a small period of time. There is a basic problem that Destiny pointed out: the basic layout of BNET with WoL and HotS does not encourage continued play. Friends lists + chat rooms should be the main part of the experience with playing an online game. There are reasons why nerds are labeled as shut-ins and such. It's because we get a lot of our social experience through talking online. Providing those things would help tremendously with the casual crowd. Let's take a look at the LoL and Dota2 clients...It's mostly chat for the main screens. You can go in further to look at detailed stats and other features, of course. Primarily, it's a social experience which caters to most casual gamers. You can gain levels by playing the game allowing you access to items (Dota2, LoL), skill builds(LoL), runes(LoL). This is encouraging to new players and gives them a feeling of leveling up and making actual progress. Blizzard uses the ladder system to achieve this but actually causes a lot of people to feel the much talked about: Ladder Anxiety. I myself suffer from this. I fucking hate losing, man. When you get stuck in 1 league forever and don't make any progress in any other way, it gets you so demotivated. The actual finding of a game is a one button kind of thing in LoL and Dota2. Blizzard tried to "fix this" with the arcade update, and that stuff at the lower left (Quick Match), but just made it all kinds of convoluted and difficult instead of just revamping the setup. I'm not sure how the structure of sc2 works, but it should be completely redesigned for HotS. It's fucking terrible. One of the basic things you look at when creating a website or other kind of GUI is to figure out how many clicks it takes to get anywhere. 1 Click is always the best. Chat rooms + lots of friends list features + better GUI + incentive to keep playing would help with a VERY SMALL AMOUNT OF EFFORT from Blizzard to improve the online experience for casuals and encourage people to keep getting their ass handed to them by cannon rushes, 6 pools, and 2 raxes. I think Valve is showing some real thought in this area and frankly have totally eclipsed Blizzard in my eyes for supporting their game. Give LoL all the shit you want for not liking the game or whatever, but Riot is all over that, too. In all honesty, they have way more shit to do to help people feel like they're getting something for putting a lot of time in. I love SC2 and I have not watched nearly as many games this year as I had last few months. A lot of it has to do with foreign players not performing as well with the influx of Korean Pros for me, but also because I'm pretty upset with the changes made in HotS. Unless Blizzard really makes some big changes in HotS - I feel much less interested and will look towards Dota2 to be my go-to game, and I feel really strongly that will happen anyway. | ||
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Kambing
United States1176 Posts
On October 17 2012 22:50 LOLItsRyann wrote: Exactly my point, SC2 is driven primarily by community websites. That alone is not right, and regardless of reasons, LoL is far more popular than SC2 is. Whatever Riot are doing that Blizzard are not, it's working, and Starcraft is slowly going to decline and become obsolete. Also, don't get me wrong, I know it's not easy to implement such things, but it's Blizzard, it's Riot, they have the knowledge to be able to do it. So while it might be hard as such, it cannot be 'that' hard for Blizzard to do. It is hard. You cannot play that down. The IP/RP system needs quite a bit of thought to decide how that model translates into the SC2 world --- are portraits, unit skins, as alluring as champions and runes --- and then corresponding time to develop the new assets as well as the mechanisms in the game to make it all work. One-to-many spectating requires some re-architecting of Blizzard's server-client setup to make it work. Dota had the fortune of being built from the ground up with that tech in mind. In contrast, LoL didn't even have a basic way for people to spectate games until somewhat recently. | ||
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aintz
Canada5624 Posts
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