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August TLPD Win Rates - Page 6
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Reality_Seeker
Bulgaria18 Posts
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Solarist
291 Posts
On September 15 2012 19:04 Reality_Seeker wrote: Protoss doing bad doesn't surprice me. Blizzard prefs toss losing instead of buffing them cos then allins might be better, but in the end most of the wins are probably by allins so ... Idk imo toss hardest race to win and other race players just shut u with " use ff, use storm" dafaq u guys a-move and still win. so idk... blizz should rly look into buffing toss and letting other people l2p instead of nerfing it and making it even more imposible to win. I have no idea what i just read..... | ||
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graNite
Germany4434 Posts
Look at his name again, then you might understand... | ||
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CamoPillbox
Czech Republic229 Posts
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On September 15 2012 19:33 graNite wrote: Look at his name again, then you might understand... Lol, that made my day | ||
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uzushould
Austria122 Posts
On September 15 2012 19:04 Reality_Seeker wrote: Protoss doing bad doesn't surprice me. Blizzard prefs toss losing instead of buffing them cos then allins might be better, but in the end most of the wins are probably by allins so ... Idk imo toss hardest race to win and other race players just shut u with " use ff, use storm" dafaq u guys a-move and still win. so idk... blizz should rly look into buffing toss and letting other people l2p instead of nerfing it and making it even more imposible to win. yes the gsl finals (pvp) clearly shows that toss has no way of winning against T or Z | ||
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Reborn8u
United States1761 Posts
On September 15 2012 21:46 uzushould wrote: yes the gsl finals (pvp) clearly shows that toss has no way of winning against T or Z So 2 years worth of consistently being on the bottom is completely negated by 1 event? I think the big problem for Protoss is how easily they can not just be punished, but outright lose, if they go for a 3rd on many maps. While zergs can safely take a 3rd in the first 4 minutes of the game against toss, and terran's can build a 3rd inside their main and either use it for mules until they can land and secure it safely or just make a PF. A protoss trying to get an early 3rd and losing it, or being harassed at multiple location, is so often a death sentence. It also may have to do with the fact that when a protoss loses probes they take a long time to replace. No mules or larva to keep a decent income or replace fallen workers quickly. Basically, protoss lacks resilience but is forced to play defensively or just 2 base all in. Without 2 base all in play, protoss wouldn't even be viable as a race. | ||
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P7GAB
Canada486 Posts
On September 15 2012 19:04 Reality_Seeker wrote: Protoss doing bad doesn't surprice me. Blizzard prefs toss losing instead of buffing them cos then allins might be better, but in the end most of the wins are probably by allins so ... Idk imo toss hardest race to win and other race players just shut u with " use ff, use storm" dafaq u guys a-move and still win. so idk... blizz should rly look into buffing toss and letting other people l2p instead of nerfing it and making it even more imposible to win. i agree with you | ||
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ThePlayer33
Australia2378 Posts
On September 15 2012 22:17 Reborn8u wrote: Without 2 base all in play, protoss wouldn't even be viable as a race. i know, that's why seed went one step further: 1 base all in. | ||
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TommyP
United States6231 Posts
On September 12 2012 20:16 SCG.StatiC wrote: No korean stats? Anyway protoss is back to having the lowest winrate so everything is normal. Korean winrates would say differently. | ||
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TommyP
United States6231 Posts
On September 12 2012 22:47 Tuczniak wrote: Well last month Protoss had over 50% in both match-ups. No patch and now they are under 50% for a change. I don't see reason to be concerned unless it will stay like this for another few months. Over 50% in Korea, it still will be over 50% this month too in korea. | ||
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AnomalySC2
United States2073 Posts
On September 15 2012 22:17 Reborn8u wrote: So 2 years worth of consistently being on the bottom is completely negated by 1 event? I think the big problem for Protoss is how easily they can not just be punished, but outright lose, if they go for a 3rd on many maps. While zergs can safely take a 3rd in the first 4 minutes of the game against toss, and terran's can build a 3rd inside their main and either use it for mules until they can land and secure it safely or just make a PF. A protoss trying to get an early 3rd and losing it, or being harassed at multiple location, is so often a death sentence. It also may have to do with the fact that when a protoss loses probes they take a long time to replace. No mules or larva to keep a decent income or replace fallen workers quickly. Basically, protoss lacks resilience but is forced to play defensively or just 2 base all in. Without 2 base all in play, protoss wouldn't even be viable as a race. Protoss does seem a bit unforgiving if they try to play passive, but I think that is the main problem. There are a lot of tricks like DT/Storm drops, collosus pokes, etc etc that aren't being utilized fully yet. I think we're getting close though, alot of kespa players are starting to use warp prism + zealot warpins regularly, won't be long before we see more powerful prism use. Also, I wouldn't mind seeing some more hallucinate mind games such as Seed's fake immortal bust that he became so famous for. I guess I'm just saying, there are still plenty of tools not being used by protoss players because they're stuck in this mindset of "gotta 2 base all in or turtle hardcore for splash". | ||
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Shiori
3815 Posts
On September 15 2012 23:27 AnomalySC2 wrote: Protoss does seem a bit unforgiving if they try to play passive, but I think that is the main problem. There are a lot of tricks like DT/Storm drops, collosus pokes, etc etc that aren't being utilized fully yet. I think we're getting close though, alot of kespa players are starting to use warp prism + zealot warpins regularly, won't be long before we see more powerful prism use. Also, I wouldn't mind seeing some more hallucinate mind games such as Seed's fake immortal bust that he became so famous for. I guess I'm just saying, there are still plenty of tools not being used by protoss players because they're stuck in this mindset of "gotta 2 base all in or turtle hardcore for splash". The problem with these tricks is that they all have a very explicit counter that, when executed properly, leaves the Protoss player miles behind. Let me give you an example of how this isn't true for other races: 10 minute Medivac pushes. If you get to the Protoss natural and see that he has a Colossus out, you can actually just back off without losing units and still be in a good position. If a Protoss opens with some gimmicky strategy like fast Warp Prism, or whatever, then they're opening themselves up to dying to a counterattack if it gets defended, and, more important, even if they don't lose any units. The thing about Protoss harassment is that it works on a principle of preparedness viz. the composition whereas the harassment of Zerg/Terran works on actually having a certain number of units ready to defend. All Protoss harassment is low in numbers, which means that you're always going to have more available to defend it than the Protoss has to harass with. This means that the Protoss needs to be capitalizing on your composition. But if you defend the harassment, that means you have the correct composition, which means that you can win with a counterattack because the Protoss army is so incredibly reliant on composition in every matchup. There really isn't any other conceivable option beyond all-inning or playing passively because Protoss simply doesn't have the ability to take a quick third and pressure without basically committing to an all-in should that pressure fail. This isn't true of the other races, which is why Protoss has gotten into the mindset you're talking about. It's pretty arrogant to suppose that all Protoss players are just refusing to innovate, when, in fact, there are a huge number of builds in every PvX matchup. The problem is that most of them get phased out once the counter is discovered, whereas the builds of other races don't seem to have as direct counters. | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On September 15 2012 23:27 AnomalySC2 wrote: Protoss does seem a bit unforgiving if they try to play passive, but I think that is the main problem. I'd say it's quite the contrary, Protoss is unforgiving when they try to be active and get thwarted. DT drops in PvT are a huge gamble, either the Terran happened to MULE shortly before and he's in an awful spot or he has a scan ready and you wasted a lot of not-so-easily-recyclable resources doing nearly nothing. Zealot harass with Prisms can be annoying but Zealots without Charge have no way to chase workers. | ||
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zmansman17
United States2567 Posts
On September 12 2012 20:22 Teoita wrote: Would be interesting to see KR winrates given how well Protoss did in WCS, GSL etc. I think that would certainly help. It is disappointing to see Protoss only eclipse Terran once in win rate in PvT though. | ||
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Drowsy
United States4876 Posts
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AhOhitzXray
United States48 Posts
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Godwrath
Spain10167 Posts
On September 15 2012 22:34 ThePlayer33 wrote: i know, that's why seed went one step further: 1 base all in. That's actually one step back.  | ||
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[]Phase[]
Belgium927 Posts
Guys whining about a small fluctuation : whats all the fuss about? If it goes slightly up down up down up down, its still nicely balanced, it just means there are small changes in the metagame that cause the changes. | ||
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Jermstuddog
United States2231 Posts
On September 16 2012 17:33 AhOhitzXray wrote: if blizzard leaves the game alone for 2 more months the game will be around to 50/50/50 as long as players keep getting better at the instead of complaining about how op everything is when the other races are adapting better than others. (zerg being shit vs everything into being really good just bc of +2 range on a utility unit.) I've been arguing against this as long as people have been saying it. The queen change had no effect on overall win rates. Zerg was up before and after the change equally. A slight bump in ZvT for a short period of time is all. The most notable winrate adjustment after the queen change was Protoss taking off. Guess observer speed change (same patch) it what was OP... | ||
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