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juicyjames
United States3815 Posts
International = Protoss 46.6% - Terran 51.3% - Zerg 52.2% / PvT 46.3% - ZvT 51.1% - ZvP 53.1% ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/B9Rww.jpg) + Show Spoiler [Colorblind Version] + ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Akuhnh.png) http://twitter.com/SC2Statistics/status/245806657186172928 We look to be missing some games. especially Korea, so I'll hold those charts for a while. | ||
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SCG.StatiC
South Africa33 Posts
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
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nkr
Sweden5451 Posts
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Grapefruit
Germany439 Posts
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syriuszonito
Poland332 Posts
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ThePlayer33
Australia2378 Posts
On September 12 2012 21:02 syriuszonito wrote: So protoss players still didnt learn how to play this game and zvt is getting more and more balanced. Cant wait to see korean graphs though. all the good protoss goes to korea | ||
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Mentalizor
Denmark1596 Posts
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NovemberstOrm
Canada16217 Posts
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X3GoldDot
Malaysia3840 Posts
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
Probably watching too much Korean Starcraft, but who knows how those winrates look like? | ||
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Enel
Sudan430 Posts
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Adonminus
Israel543 Posts
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States44026 Posts
I wonder what the fundamental reasons for Protoss losing again is... historically, they've done the worst (by far). Is it a lower skill ceiling? Design issues? We just really don't know what the hell we're doing? This month is just a fluke? It doesn't seem too bad overall. | ||
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Aunvilgod
2653 Posts
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Qwerty85
Croatia5536 Posts
edit: wrong thread. OT: game balanced | ||
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graNite
Germany4434 Posts
On September 12 2012 21:21 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: TvP has Terran ahead by 7.5%, and ZvP has Zerg ahead by 6.2%... what's supposedly the "permissible" range of balance error? 10% total, to account for a split of 5% in each direction? I wonder what the fundamental reasons for Protoss losing again is... historically, they've done the worst (by far). Is it a lower skill ceiling? Design issues? We just really don't know what the hell we're doing? This month is just a fluke? It doesn't seem too bad overall. I think they have too many amove units. You can not micro zealots and colossi to perfection like you can do it with marines. | ||
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BobMcJohnson
France2916 Posts
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On September 12 2012 21:21 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: TvP has Terran ahead by 7.5%, and ZvP has Zerg ahead by 6.2%... what's supposedly the "permissible" range of balance error? 10% total, to account for a split of 5% in each direction? I wonder what the fundamental reasons for Protoss losing again is... historically, they've done the worst (by far). Is it a lower skill ceiling? Design issues? We just really don't know what the hell we're doing? This month is just a fluke? It doesn't seem too bad overall. Hopefully just a fluke. Hoping for Korea to show 50-50-50  | ||
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MrCon
France29748 Posts
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Mowr
Sweden791 Posts
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X3GoldDot
Malaysia3840 Posts
On September 12 2012 21:21 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: TvP has Terran ahead by 7.5%, and ZvP has Zerg ahead by 6.2%... what's supposedly the "permissible" range of balance error? 10% total, to account for a split of 5% in each direction? I wonder what the fundamental reasons for Protoss losing again is... historically, they've done the worst (by far). Is it a lower skill ceiling? Design issues? We just really don't know what the hell we're doing? This month is just a fluke? It doesn't seem too bad overall. korea should show the opposite with creator, squirtle, seed, parting dominating wcs korea | ||
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Finnz
United Kingdom260 Posts
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Embir
Poland567 Posts
On September 12 2012 21:38 Finnz wrote: this must mean terran is op again. What do you think, where Blizz should nerf us again? Is there even possibility to nerf Terran at the moment? | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States44026 Posts
On September 12 2012 21:40 Embir wrote: What do you think, where Blizz should nerf us again? Is there even possibility to nerf Terran at the moment? Obviously nerf the bunkers  | ||
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FataLe
New Zealand4492 Posts
On September 12 2012 21:21 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: TvP has Terran ahead by 7.5%, and ZvP has Zerg ahead by 6.2%... what's supposedly the "permissible" range of balance error? 10% total, to account for a split of 5% in each direction? I wonder what the fundamental reasons for Protoss losing again is... historically, they've done the worst (by far). Is it a lower skill ceiling? Design issues? We just really don't know what the hell we're doing? This month is just a fluke? It doesn't seem too bad overall. It's a complete fluke. Serious, just look at previous going back to 2010. | ||
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RockIronrod
Australia1369 Posts
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Tuczniak
1561 Posts
Let's wait what Korea will show. | ||
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sitromit
7051 Posts
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Butterednuts
United States859 Posts
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Olli
Austria24417 Posts
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DontNerfInfestors
Spain280 Posts
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SiroKO
France721 Posts
If that's the case, I would be interested in having access to them in order to gather data from several months and make a 3D chart (using the length of the game). So we would know which strong timings have appeared, if broodlords/infestors are truely balanced in the late game etc... | ||
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arew
Lithuania1861 Posts
On September 12 2012 22:15 Tuczniak wrote: Looks pretty good. Let's wait what Korea will show. Does it look good with the current percentage of protoss winning games?:D Funny... | ||
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Nekovivie
United Kingdom2599 Posts
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Tuczniak
1561 Posts
On September 12 2012 22:42 arew wrote: Well last month Protoss had over 50% in both match-ups. No patch and now they are under 50% for a change. I don't see reason to be concerned unless it will stay like this for another few months.Does it look good with the current percentage of protoss winning games?:D Funny... | ||
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MrCon
France29748 Posts
On September 12 2012 22:42 arew wrote: Does it look good with the current percentage of protoss winning games?:D Funny... What...it's basically completely balanced, so if protoss is at 49.99% in both matchups people will only see "under 50%" and say something is wrong ? I mean, there are the graphs then there are the games. I don't think protoss have any ground to not be happy with the current state of sc2. | ||
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Ctuchik
Sweden91 Posts
On September 12 2012 22:37 SiroKO wrote: I'm not sure if these stats are stored in a SQL or XML table. If that's the case, I would be interested in having access to them in order to gather data from several months and make a 3D chart (using the length of the game). So we would know which strong timings have appeared, if broodlords/infestors are truely balanced in the late game etc... It's TLPD bro, hosted on this very site. Unfortunately game length is not recorded.  | ||
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Doublemint
Austria8430 Posts
ZvP however, not so much ^_^ | ||
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NexCa
Germany954 Posts
On September 12 2012 22:53 Doublemint wrote: I am pretty surprised by the TvP stats. ZvP however, not so much ^_^ yea, sad, but true ... Zerg's still dominating in ZvP with ease | ||
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X3GoldDot
Malaysia3840 Posts
On September 12 2012 23:02 NexCa wrote: yea, sad, but true ... Zerg's still dominating in ZvP with ease meanwhile get ready for over 55% PvZ in korea | ||
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Doublemint
Austria8430 Posts
On September 12 2012 23:04 X3GoldDot wrote: meanwhile get ready for over 55% PvZ in korea Will quote you later if that turns out correct, which I doubt to be honest. Though Korea always was "different". | ||
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Qntc.YuMe
United States792 Posts
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Gladiator6
Sweden7024 Posts
On September 12 2012 23:02 NexCa wrote: yea, sad, but true ... Zerg's still dominating in ZvP with ease At least lategame if Protoss dont get a good vortex then they win >_> | ||
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Olli
Austria24417 Posts
On September 12 2012 23:04 X3GoldDot wrote: meanwhile get ready for over 55% PvZ in korea Two base all ins. | ||
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Excelsiorrr
United States4 Posts
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ceaRshaf
Romania4926 Posts
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
On September 12 2012 22:49 MrCon wrote: What...it's basically completely balanced, so if protoss is at 49.99% in both matchups people will only see "under 50%" and say something is wrong ? I mean, there are the graphs then there are the games. I don't think protoss have any ground to not be happy with the current state of sc2. The one legitimate complaint we have is that it's annoying as fuck in lategame pvz to rely on a single vortex to make or break the game. Other than that yeah, the game looks and feels pretty good right now i'd say. | ||
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Noocta
France12578 Posts
Look at all these protoss in Korea doing so bad. /sarcasm Game look pretty well balanced. Dustin was perhaps right afterall, Queen change wasn't so bad.. | ||
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sitromit
7051 Posts
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Noocta
France12578 Posts
On September 12 2012 23:42 sitromit wrote: PvP finals in GSL, all Protoss Semis in WCS Korea, Protoss wins 3 out of 4 groups Ro16 OSL, people claim Protoss weakest race... Mind boggles... Don't forget Creator winning TSL4 | ||
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Tsubbi
Germany7967 Posts
On September 12 2012 23:07 Doublemint wrote: Will quote you later if that turns out correct, which I doubt to be honest. Though Korea always was "different". its worse, korean tlpd shows a 62,5% win ratio pvz for august (40-24) | ||
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divito
Canada1213 Posts
On September 12 2012 23:42 sitromit wrote: PvP finals in GSL, all Protoss Semis in WCS Korea, Protoss wins 3 out of 4 groups Ro16 OSL, people claim Protoss weakest race... Mind boggles... That's a ridiculously small percentage of Protoss players. And not indicative of anything, except that they either got lucky or played worse opponents. Says nothing about the race as a whole, which is what the statistics are meant to indicate. | ||
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Shiori
3815 Posts
On September 12 2012 23:42 sitromit wrote: PvP finals in GSL, all Protoss Semis in WCS Korea, Protoss wins 3 out of 4 groups Ro16 OSL, people claim Protoss weakest race... Mind boggles... You do realize that TLPD has around 60 PvZ games, right? As in, not many at all. | ||
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Pinna
Finland152 Posts
On September 12 2012 23:51 Shiori wrote: You do realize that TLPD has around 60 PvZ games, right? As in, not many at all. Yea, thats why my mid-master protoss friend loosing to a grandmaster zerg counts, but Squirtle beating the likes of DRG doesn't. | ||
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Doublemint
Austria8430 Posts
On September 12 2012 23:53 Pinna wrote: Yea, thats why my mid-master protoss friend loosing to a grandmaster zerg counts, but Squirtle beating the likes of DRG doesn't. If you brought a better example you might have a point... but Squirtle nowadays is playing amazing SC2 and DRG, currently, not so much. | ||
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sitromit
7051 Posts
On September 12 2012 23:48 divito wrote: That's a ridiculously small percentage of Protoss players. And not indicative of anything, except that they either got lucky or played worse opponents. Says nothing about the race as a whole, which is what the statistics are meant to indicate. Yeah, nobodies playing in online cups in NA and EU say more about the race as a whole than the best players in the world, playing in the most competitive tournaments in the world. | ||
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Noocta
France12578 Posts
On September 12 2012 23:48 divito wrote: That's a ridiculously small percentage of Protoss players. And not indicative of anything, except that they either got lucky or played worse opponents. Says nothing about the race as a whole, which is what the statistics are meant to indicate. Terran is fine now and for months only 1 or 2 terrans were doing even good. | ||
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divito
Canada1213 Posts
On September 12 2012 23:59 sitromit wrote: Yeah, nobodies playing in online cups in NA and EU say more about the race as a whole than the best players in the world, playing in the most competitive tournaments in the world. You're going to have a very skewed game if you only balance a small group of players and their results. | ||
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BronzeKnee
United States5214 Posts
On September 12 2012 23:42 sitromit wrote: PvP finals in GSL, all Protoss Semis in WCS Korea, Protoss wins 3 out of 4 groups Ro16 OSL, people claim Protoss weakest race... Mind boggles... You have a very small mind my friend. Basically Creator goes on a tear winning WCS and TSL4, and Seed and MC are in the GSL Finals and now Protoss isn't weak? Even a broken clock is right twice a day. | ||
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VPVanek
Canada238 Posts
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Jaegeru
United Kingdom676 Posts
On September 13 2012 00:14 divito wrote: You're going to have a very skewed game if you only balance a small group of players and their results. Yes, kinda of like Terran being balanced around Taeja and MVP when Taeja seemed to be dominating vs Zerg and everybody else was struggling asking for buffs. | ||
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Shiori
3815 Posts
On September 12 2012 23:53 Pinna wrote: Yea, thats why my mid-master protoss friend loosing to a grandmaster zerg counts, but Squirtle beating the likes of DRG doesn't. Uh...if any of those were actually in TLPD I guess you'd have a point. As far as I know, mid masters players don't compete in big tournaments. | ||
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Assirra
Belgium4169 Posts
On September 13 2012 00:14 divito wrote: You're going to have a very skewed game if you only balance a small group of players and their results. And yet you need to balance it for them cause if you buff it for the lesser players who knows what the top can do with said buffs. | ||
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divito
Canada1213 Posts
On September 13 2012 00:18 Jaegeru wrote: Yes, kinda of like Terran being balanced around Taeja and MVP when Taeja seemed to be dominating vs Zerg and everybody else was struggling asking for buffs. The outspoken few say nothing of the actual statistics used when they try to nerf/buff. | ||
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sitromit
7051 Posts
On September 13 2012 00:16 BronzeKnee wrote: You have a very small mind my friend. Basically Creator goes on a tear winning WCS and TSL4, and Seed and MC are in the GSL Finals and now Protoss isn't weak? Even a broken clock is right twice a day. Yeah, me and every Korean interviewer apparently. The most common question in interviews lately has been "Protoss is really dominant lately, why do you think that is". And the players all seemed to agree, but they have small minds too, right? | ||
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mrRoflpwn
United States2618 Posts
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Dfgj
Singapore5922 Posts
On September 13 2012 00:25 sitromit wrote: Yeah, me and every Korean interviewer apparently. The most common question in interviews lately has been "Protoss is really dominant lately, why do you think that is". And the players all seemed to agree, but they have small minds too, right? There's a world of difference between 'X race is dominant lately' and 'X race is OP'. BW went through this over and over as new maps/builds/players just performing well sent one race into dominant position for awhile. | ||
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Asmodeusx
286 Posts
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tomatriedes
New Zealand5356 Posts
On September 13 2012 00:25 sitromit wrote: Yeah, me and every Korean interviewer apparently. The most common question in interviews lately has been "Protoss is really dominant lately, why do you think that is". And the players all seemed to agree, but they have small minds too, right? If one race is doing better at international and other is doing better at Korea level that says more about meta-game and skill than balance. | ||
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Assirra
Belgium4169 Posts
On September 13 2012 00:28 tomatriedes wrote: If one race is doing better at international and other is doing better at Korea level that says more about meta-game and skill than balance. You only have to look at the top for balance, the rest does not matter. Yea your average joe might be getting stomped as race x but if said race is doing well at the top then the problem does not lie with the race but with the player. | ||
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Zane
Romania3916 Posts
On September 13 2012 00:28 tomatriedes wrote: If one race is doing better at international and other is doing better at Korea level that says more about meta-game and skill than balance. Yeah, this was the case with TvZ for quite a while: really bad internationally, balanced in Korea; now it's balanced internationally as well. Anyway, waiting on the Korean stats, I got a feeling PvZ will look quite ugly in P's favor. | ||
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BronzeKnee
United States5214 Posts
On September 13 2012 00:25 sitromit wrote: Yeah, me and every Korean interviewer apparently. The most common question in interviews lately has been "Protoss is really dominant lately, why do you think that is". And the players all seemed to agree, but they have small minds too, right? Everyone used to think that the world was flat too. But then we learned it wasn't. Math changes things. Opinions and erroneous hunches mean nothing. Statistical data does. I cannot comment on whether or not they have small minds, since I don't know how easily their mind is boggled when presented with data that contradicts an opinions or erroneous hunch. | ||
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Fenrax
United States5018 Posts
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Seam
United States1093 Posts
On September 13 2012 00:17 VPVanek wrote: Can someone share the secret on beating zerg? ZvT 51.1% Doesn't seem to be a big secret... | ||
Poopi
France12761 Posts
On September 12 2012 23:34 Noocta wrote: Protoss is totaly the weakest race. Look at all these protoss in Korea doing so bad. /sarcasm Game look pretty well balanced. Dustin was perhaps right afterall, Queen change wasn't so bad.. The game was more balanced before this patch. | ||
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Noocta
France12578 Posts
On September 13 2012 04:00 Poopi wrote: The game was more balanced before this patch. More balanced ? Probably not. More fun ? for terran totaly TvZ before queen change was so much fun :< | ||
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Poopi
France12761 Posts
On September 13 2012 04:03 Noocta wrote: More balanced ? Probably not. More fun ? for terran totaly TvZ before queen change was so much fun :< Yes it was more balanced. You didn't see koreans dropping maps/matches to random, at least not as much. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On September 13 2012 04:03 Noocta wrote: More balanced ? Probably not. More fun ? for terran totaly TvZ before queen change was so much fun :< TvZ before 3CC builds was fun... | ||
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Seam
United States1093 Posts
On September 13 2012 04:04 Poopi wrote: Yes it was more balanced. You didn't see koreans dropping maps/matches to random, at least not as much. ZvT 51.1% That's almost exactly where it was before the patch. Just because you notice people dropping maps to random players more often doesn't mean it's more common. | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On September 12 2012 20:16 SCG.StatiC wrote: No korean stats? Anyway protoss is back to having the lowest winrate so everything is normal. International protoss has always been low, korean stats past few months protoss has been doing extremely well and continues to do so. I bet they have the highest in korea ^^. | ||
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m0ck
4194 Posts
"Oh no, my all-ins are worse! I guess I now need to be as fast and as good at multi-tasking as my zerg opponent. The horror! The horror!" So much stupid still being sprouted about TvZ-balance, regardless of how wrong the people who clamored for zerg-nerfs turned out to be. | ||
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Raid
United States398 Posts
Edit: I noticed the number of games is ridiculously low in comparison to the other months.. Whats up with that? Is it not even finished? Why release it unfinished? | ||
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xrapture
United States1644 Posts
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SCG.StatiC
South Africa33 Posts
On September 13 2012 04:13 blade55555 wrote: International protoss has always been low, korean stats past few months protoss has been doing extremely well and continues to do so. I bet they have the highest in korea ^^. Yeah I feel bad for saying that now. I wasn't trying to complain I think its very balanced at the moment And yeah protoss doing very well in Korea. | ||
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Sabu113
United States11042 Posts
On September 13 2012 04:13 blade55555 wrote: International protoss has always been low, korean stats past few months protoss has been doing extremely well and continues to do so. I bet they have the highest in korea ^^. No international toss has usually been much stronger. The thing is that you can make a good case that all of those top toss are in bad slumps at the moment. In korea, well lets ignore the last few months and it tells quite the obvious tale about WoL. It feels like the ZvP success is illusory. That infestor BL army is still pretty silly. Hopefully HoTS will make it more robust. | ||
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Aveng3r
United States2411 Posts
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Incomplet
United Kingdom1419 Posts
On September 12 2012 23:48 divito wrote: That's a ridiculously small percentage of Protoss players. And not indicative of anything, except that they either got lucky or played worse opponents. Says nothing about the race as a whole, which is what the statistics are meant to indicate. You do realize that Blizzard balance the game in according to the "small percentage" of pros. Since we began this testing, we’ve also been paying very close attention to the major tournaments around the world, and we’ve noticed that terran performance in the TvZ matchup has improved. In analyzing tournaments such as Global StarCraft II Team League, Intel Extreme Masters, and Major League Gaming, we’re no longer seeing the same balance shifts that caused us to propose changes in the first place. The most interesting tournament in this context was the IEM at gamescom 2012 in Cologne, Germany, where we saw players such as Kas and MVP make use of Ravens in ways that held a lot of potential. http://us.battle.net//sc2/en/blog/7121643 | ||
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Orracle
United States314 Posts
On September 13 2012 04:28 Raid wrote: I like how all the other protoss are under-performing on the most winningest month for protoss in a while. Edit: I noticed the number of games is ridiculously low in comparison to the other months.. Whats up with that? Is it not even finished? Why release it unfinished? Oh wow, I didn't notice that actually... This looks to be missing 700-1000 games in the international category alone... Would be good to have an edit on the front page actually stating that. | ||
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achan1058
1091 Posts
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Kamwah
United Kingdom724 Posts
On September 13 2012 04:14 m0ck wrote: TvZ before the patch WAS 3cc builds - and a shit-ton of roach-ling all-ins to try and punish it.. Try and take off your rose-tinted glasses and watch some games from before the patch and see if it really matches up with how you remember the games. "Oh no, my all-ins are worse! I guess I now need to be as fast and as good at multi-tasking as my zerg opponent. The horror! The horror!" So much stupid still being sprouted about TvZ-balance, regardless of how wrong the people who clamored for zerg-nerfs turned out to be. No it wasn't, not always like mostly it is now. Don't make me laugh myself to an early grave. XD I'm not saying it's imbalanced because it's evened out a lot (I still wish we had more viable openers like back in the day). | ||
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rainfable
United States171 Posts
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Noocta
France12578 Posts
Blame the queen making any pressure build without 3 OC bad or all in for that | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On September 13 2012 07:50 Noocta wrote: Blame the queen making any pressure build without 3 OC bad or all in for that Na, they have been the standard builds for much longer. They were not a reaction to queen range, they were a reaction to zergs destroying tank/marine pushes and proceeding to win with mass muta. | ||
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Lunareste
United States3596 Posts
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HolyArrow
United States7116 Posts
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winthrop
Hong Kong956 Posts
is that a conspiracy? | ||
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graNite
Germany4434 Posts
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MCDayC
United Kingdom14464 Posts
On September 13 2012 15:17 HolyArrow wrote: It's actually kind of nice seeing international PvX winrates being sub-50% while Toss does well in Korea. Kind of proves the "Protoss takes no skill" crowd wrong Yup, it would kinda indicate the reverse, Toss are doing well at the top end (Squirtle, MC, First, Seed, Parting, Creator etc) but once you go down it gets hairy. Interesting to see. | ||
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Tsubbi
Germany7967 Posts
On September 15 2012 18:22 graNite wrote: Why are the TLPD Stats not automated yet? it would be really awesome if that feature could be implemented, a similiar one is on the gomtv website but of course with only gsl games | ||
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Reality_Seeker
Bulgaria18 Posts
User was warned for this post | ||
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Solarist
291 Posts
On September 15 2012 19:04 Reality_Seeker wrote: Protoss doing bad doesn't surprice me. Blizzard prefs toss losing instead of buffing them cos then allins might be better, but in the end most of the wins are probably by allins so ... Idk imo toss hardest race to win and other race players just shut u with " use ff, use storm" dafaq u guys a-move and still win. so idk... blizz should rly look into buffing toss and letting other people l2p instead of nerfing it and making it even more imposible to win. I have no idea what i just read..... | ||
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graNite
Germany4434 Posts
Look at his name again, then you might understand... | ||
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CamoPillbox
Czech Republic229 Posts
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On September 15 2012 19:33 graNite wrote: Look at his name again, then you might understand... Lol, that made my day | ||
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uzushould
Austria122 Posts
On September 15 2012 19:04 Reality_Seeker wrote: Protoss doing bad doesn't surprice me. Blizzard prefs toss losing instead of buffing them cos then allins might be better, but in the end most of the wins are probably by allins so ... Idk imo toss hardest race to win and other race players just shut u with " use ff, use storm" dafaq u guys a-move and still win. so idk... blizz should rly look into buffing toss and letting other people l2p instead of nerfing it and making it even more imposible to win. yes the gsl finals (pvp) clearly shows that toss has no way of winning against T or Z | ||
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Reborn8u
United States1761 Posts
On September 15 2012 21:46 uzushould wrote: yes the gsl finals (pvp) clearly shows that toss has no way of winning against T or Z So 2 years worth of consistently being on the bottom is completely negated by 1 event? I think the big problem for Protoss is how easily they can not just be punished, but outright lose, if they go for a 3rd on many maps. While zergs can safely take a 3rd in the first 4 minutes of the game against toss, and terran's can build a 3rd inside their main and either use it for mules until they can land and secure it safely or just make a PF. A protoss trying to get an early 3rd and losing it, or being harassed at multiple location, is so often a death sentence. It also may have to do with the fact that when a protoss loses probes they take a long time to replace. No mules or larva to keep a decent income or replace fallen workers quickly. Basically, protoss lacks resilience but is forced to play defensively or just 2 base all in. Without 2 base all in play, protoss wouldn't even be viable as a race. | ||
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P7GAB
Canada486 Posts
On September 15 2012 19:04 Reality_Seeker wrote: Protoss doing bad doesn't surprice me. Blizzard prefs toss losing instead of buffing them cos then allins might be better, but in the end most of the wins are probably by allins so ... Idk imo toss hardest race to win and other race players just shut u with " use ff, use storm" dafaq u guys a-move and still win. so idk... blizz should rly look into buffing toss and letting other people l2p instead of nerfing it and making it even more imposible to win. i agree with you | ||
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ThePlayer33
Australia2378 Posts
On September 15 2012 22:17 Reborn8u wrote: Without 2 base all in play, protoss wouldn't even be viable as a race. i know, that's why seed went one step further: 1 base all in. | ||
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TommyP
United States6231 Posts
On September 12 2012 20:16 SCG.StatiC wrote: No korean stats? Anyway protoss is back to having the lowest winrate so everything is normal. Korean winrates would say differently. | ||
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TommyP
United States6231 Posts
On September 12 2012 22:47 Tuczniak wrote: Well last month Protoss had over 50% in both match-ups. No patch and now they are under 50% for a change. I don't see reason to be concerned unless it will stay like this for another few months. Over 50% in Korea, it still will be over 50% this month too in korea. | ||
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AnomalySC2
United States2073 Posts
On September 15 2012 22:17 Reborn8u wrote: So 2 years worth of consistently being on the bottom is completely negated by 1 event? I think the big problem for Protoss is how easily they can not just be punished, but outright lose, if they go for a 3rd on many maps. While zergs can safely take a 3rd in the first 4 minutes of the game against toss, and terran's can build a 3rd inside their main and either use it for mules until they can land and secure it safely or just make a PF. A protoss trying to get an early 3rd and losing it, or being harassed at multiple location, is so often a death sentence. It also may have to do with the fact that when a protoss loses probes they take a long time to replace. No mules or larva to keep a decent income or replace fallen workers quickly. Basically, protoss lacks resilience but is forced to play defensively or just 2 base all in. Without 2 base all in play, protoss wouldn't even be viable as a race. Protoss does seem a bit unforgiving if they try to play passive, but I think that is the main problem. There are a lot of tricks like DT/Storm drops, collosus pokes, etc etc that aren't being utilized fully yet. I think we're getting close though, alot of kespa players are starting to use warp prism + zealot warpins regularly, won't be long before we see more powerful prism use. Also, I wouldn't mind seeing some more hallucinate mind games such as Seed's fake immortal bust that he became so famous for. I guess I'm just saying, there are still plenty of tools not being used by protoss players because they're stuck in this mindset of "gotta 2 base all in or turtle hardcore for splash". | ||
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Shiori
3815 Posts
On September 15 2012 23:27 AnomalySC2 wrote: Protoss does seem a bit unforgiving if they try to play passive, but I think that is the main problem. There are a lot of tricks like DT/Storm drops, collosus pokes, etc etc that aren't being utilized fully yet. I think we're getting close though, alot of kespa players are starting to use warp prism + zealot warpins regularly, won't be long before we see more powerful prism use. Also, I wouldn't mind seeing some more hallucinate mind games such as Seed's fake immortal bust that he became so famous for. I guess I'm just saying, there are still plenty of tools not being used by protoss players because they're stuck in this mindset of "gotta 2 base all in or turtle hardcore for splash". The problem with these tricks is that they all have a very explicit counter that, when executed properly, leaves the Protoss player miles behind. Let me give you an example of how this isn't true for other races: 10 minute Medivac pushes. If you get to the Protoss natural and see that he has a Colossus out, you can actually just back off without losing units and still be in a good position. If a Protoss opens with some gimmicky strategy like fast Warp Prism, or whatever, then they're opening themselves up to dying to a counterattack if it gets defended, and, more important, even if they don't lose any units. The thing about Protoss harassment is that it works on a principle of preparedness viz. the composition whereas the harassment of Zerg/Terran works on actually having a certain number of units ready to defend. All Protoss harassment is low in numbers, which means that you're always going to have more available to defend it than the Protoss has to harass with. This means that the Protoss needs to be capitalizing on your composition. But if you defend the harassment, that means you have the correct composition, which means that you can win with a counterattack because the Protoss army is so incredibly reliant on composition in every matchup. There really isn't any other conceivable option beyond all-inning or playing passively because Protoss simply doesn't have the ability to take a quick third and pressure without basically committing to an all-in should that pressure fail. This isn't true of the other races, which is why Protoss has gotten into the mindset you're talking about. It's pretty arrogant to suppose that all Protoss players are just refusing to innovate, when, in fact, there are a huge number of builds in every PvX matchup. The problem is that most of them get phased out once the counter is discovered, whereas the builds of other races don't seem to have as direct counters. | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On September 15 2012 23:27 AnomalySC2 wrote: Protoss does seem a bit unforgiving if they try to play passive, but I think that is the main problem. I'd say it's quite the contrary, Protoss is unforgiving when they try to be active and get thwarted. DT drops in PvT are a huge gamble, either the Terran happened to MULE shortly before and he's in an awful spot or he has a scan ready and you wasted a lot of not-so-easily-recyclable resources doing nearly nothing. Zealot harass with Prisms can be annoying but Zealots without Charge have no way to chase workers. | ||
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zmansman17
United States2567 Posts
On September 12 2012 20:22 Teoita wrote: Would be interesting to see KR winrates given how well Protoss did in WCS, GSL etc. I think that would certainly help. It is disappointing to see Protoss only eclipse Terran once in win rate in PvT though. | ||
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Drowsy
United States4876 Posts
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AhOhitzXray
United States48 Posts
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Godwrath
Spain10115 Posts
On September 15 2012 22:34 ThePlayer33 wrote: i know, that's why seed went one step further: 1 base all in. That's actually one step back. | ||
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[]Phase[]
Belgium927 Posts
Guys whining about a small fluctuation : whats all the fuss about? If it goes slightly up down up down up down, its still nicely balanced, it just means there are small changes in the metagame that cause the changes. | ||
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Jermstuddog
United States2231 Posts
On September 16 2012 17:33 AhOhitzXray wrote: if blizzard leaves the game alone for 2 more months the game will be around to 50/50/50 as long as players keep getting better at the instead of complaining about how op everything is when the other races are adapting better than others. (zerg being shit vs everything into being really good just bc of +2 range on a utility unit.) I've been arguing against this as long as people have been saying it. The queen change had no effect on overall win rates. Zerg was up before and after the change equally. A slight bump in ZvT for a short period of time is all. The most notable winrate adjustment after the queen change was Protoss taking off. Guess observer speed change (same patch) it what was OP... | ||
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SigmaoctanusIV
United States3313 Posts
Zergs Started Splitting Broodlords and using Mutas in more games. Terrans are being more aggressive and actually microing well. all our evil Protoss tricks are pretty much figured out and Terrans and Zergs aren't dying as often to 2 base all-ins, as a Protoss player I have been winning 50%+ on NA ladder but I have also played close to 50% pvp 35% pvz 15% pvts. | ||
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sitromit
7051 Posts
On September 15 2012 22:17 Reborn8u wrote: So 2 years worth of consistently being on the bottom is completely negated by 1 event? I think the big problem for Protoss is how easily they can not just be punished, but outright lose, if they go for a 3rd on many maps. While zergs can safely take a 3rd in the first 4 minutes of the game against toss, and terran's can build a 3rd inside their main and either use it for mules until they can land and secure it safely or just make a PF. A protoss trying to get an early 3rd and losing it, or being harassed at multiple location, is so often a death sentence. It also may have to do with the fact that when a protoss loses probes they take a long time to replace. No mules or larva to keep a decent income or replace fallen workers quickly. Basically, protoss lacks resilience but is forced to play defensively or just 2 base all in. Without 2 base all in play, protoss wouldn't even be viable as a race. 1 Event? Let's look at recent results at the highest level of play, shall we? GSL 2012 season 3, PvP finals, Protoss champ Korea WCS, All Protoss Semis at Winners Bracket, Protoss champ Korea WCG, Protoss champ TSL 4, Protoss Champ That's 1 event? | ||
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SigmaoctanusIV
United States3313 Posts
On September 16 2012 19:51 sitromit wrote: 1 Event? Let's look at recent results at the highest level of play, shall we? GSL 2012 season 3, PvP finals, Protoss champ Korea WCS, All Protoss Semis at Winners Bracket, Protoss champ Korea WCG, Protoss champ TSL 4, Protoss Champ That's 1 event? Those are all Koreans. These aren't even Korean win/loss. We don't even know those numbers yet so wait and see | ||
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VmY
Netherlands1286 Posts
On September 16 2012 20:02 SigmaoctanusIV wrote: Those are all Koreans. These aren't even Korean win/loss. We don't even know those numbers yet so wait and see But we do! http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=369006 Even though I woudn't try to read to much into these winrates (Both international and korean have small sample sizes, patches change the game etc), you can't argue protoss is 'the worst' race if you look at the results the last few months. | ||
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aksfjh
United States4853 Posts
On September 16 2012 19:51 sitromit wrote: 1 Event? Let's look at recent results at the highest level of play, shall we? GSL 2012 season 3, PvP finals, Protoss champ Korea WCS, All Protoss Semis at Winners Bracket, Protoss champ Korea WCG, Protoss champ TSL 4, Protoss Champ That's 1 event? The strong presence in Korea could explain the weak presence in International competition. Apparently, most of the Korean Protoss stayed in Korea. | ||
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PlacidPanda
United States246 Posts
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Enzymatic
Canada1301 Posts
On September 17 2012 01:42 PlacidPanda wrote: So yeah, that TvP matchup is impossible guys. Guys??? Wait we're up in winrates? Oh... Terran players in general just have a tough time dealing with when they're not on top of the win-rate charts. It was like that for long enough that the majority of them just became "expectant" to have the top win % of the races. | ||
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jameswatts
South Africa125 Posts
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Sc2Null
United States3754 Posts
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nyaru267
United States117 Posts
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_Search_
Canada180 Posts
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Jermstuddog
United States2231 Posts
Not sure what's up. | ||
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jameswatts
South Africa125 Posts
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SoniC_eu
Denmark1008 Posts
On September 17 2012 01:46 Enzymatic wrote: Terran players in general just have a tough time dealing with when they're not on top of the win-rate charts. It was like that for long enough that the majority of them just became "expectant" to have the top win % of the races. Err I think your post doesnt apply to the silent majority of terrans. It sounds like you are bitter over something. Let's focus on the present moment shall we, my friend | ||
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SirPinky
United States525 Posts
On October 22 2012 16:09 SoniC_eu wrote: Err I think your post doesnt apply to the silent majority of terrans. It sounds like you are bitter over something. Let's focus on the present moment shall we, my friend Actually many of them aren't silent anymore. The imbalance is getting greater and greater. MVP just tweeted: "응원해주신분들 감사해요~! 5회우승은 다음에 ㅠㅠ THX my fan. terran buff plz XD" After the endless Zerg dominance in the last two months, you don't need statistics to tell you there is a problem. But I'm sure there are those "show me the stats" nerds to make it a reality. BTW: Balance aside, aren't you tired of getting ZvZ on ladder all the time. Terran is the least played race by nearly 10% (over 10% in GM). Just in the interest of having ladder games versus a Terran, Zerg should be looked at. http://sc2ranks.com/stats/league/all/1/all | ||
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bhfberserk
Canada390 Posts
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